April 15, 2024 • 48 mins
Today, we're reacting to videos on a topic that's been on many minds: masculinity. It's fascinating how this concept has evolved over time, and yet remains a subject of much debate and contemplation even in 2024. In this episode, we're continuing our trend of answering your questions, and one that keeps popping up is about the essence of masculinity. What does it mean to be a man? Join us as we dissect the various perspectives and societal expectations surrounding masculinity, from traditional roles of protection and provision to modern-day interpretations of strength and selflessness.
We'll explore how cultural shifts influence our understanding of masculinity and why certain traits are emphasized or suppressed in different eras. From examining historical references like the Titanic's "women and children first" protocol to dissecting contemporary behaviors driven by desires for wealth and power, we'll navigate the complexities of defining masculinity in today's world. So, grab your headphones and tune in as we unravel the layers of masculinity and challenge conventional norms in this thought-provoking discussion.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:10):
Got Parker, my brother, with me today. Haven't you haven't
been on the podcast in a while, It's been a
long time. We are talking today continuing a kind of
a trend we've done on this podcast where we answer
your questions if you email podcast at grangersmith dot com.
And the trend has been that I take kind of
the most popular questions to me and bundle them and
(00:34):
we discussed that, and one of the most popular questions
I get is about masculinity in a way of saying,
in other words, what is it? What does it mean
to be a man? What is a man? Which is
surprisingly in twenty twenty four a thing, and that changes,
(01:00):
Believe it or not, it changes over millennia, over centuries,
even over decades. That answer changes depending on your worldview.
The most common understanding of what does it be what
does it mean to be a man? Today? The most
common kind of knee jerk reaction to that is strong
(01:22):
burrely able to work with this, hands, doesn't submit to
anyone or anything, uses brute force for protection if you
if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything,
like that old Aaron tip and nineties country song. So
that's kind of what we're going to dive in today.
Ant Man has provided us a few videos, and so Parker,
(01:45):
I've have like I've seen I kind of know the premise,
but I have not seen these videos. So you and
I are going to experience it for the first time.
What does it mean to be a man?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
You know, I've described this in a variety of different
ways every time I answered this question. I've written a
whole essay on this thing, but I'll give it to
you just off the top of my head right now, because,
like I said, I think that you can talk about
it in different ways, but I think primarily it means
to be responsible for yourself, but not just yourself, but
to be able to take care of others. Because it's
the minimum bar of a man to not be a
(02:20):
negative on society, right, But a man, a true man,
needs to not be able to just take care of himself,
but be able to take care of other people to
be a net.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So I guess we should ask like this, So far
are we in agreeance with this guy? The minimum bar
of being a man is don't be a menace to society,
And what you're moving for is to be a protector
within society.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
I guess let's.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Get some more data because I'm kind of with you here.
Let's continue to be a net positive, right.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
That's why I advocate for men paying for dates and
taking care of women and doing those things, because.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
It was just strangely offensive to a certain population.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I like, it amazes me that it's the same, you know,
it just drives me nus because I have a podcast
with my wife called Better Than Perfect and we talk
about traditional relationships on there, and there would be so
many angry guys commenting on it that are like, she
should pay for her own stuff. I'm not going to
pay for And I'm like, these are the exact same
(03:25):
guys that are upset about feminism, And yeah, I'm like right,
cause you can't have it both ways. Like if you
want women to be feminine and you want to be mouse,
you want to be the authority in your house and
be the man, you got to pay for everything. That's
that's how it is, Like you got to take care
of everybody if you want that authority. But it's the
same guys, and it just drives me nuts because.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So this is the thing. It's like, you need to
be strong and you need to be a protector, and
you need to provide that's what it means to be
a man. Where does that come from? What's the foundation
of that? Is that stainable?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah, it's interesting because I thought that this was going
to go. I thought that this initial video is going
to go in a different direction of more of just
the David Goggins route or a little bit more straightforward
pushing through obstacles equals masculinity, And this is already immediately
(04:22):
going to more of a selflessness defines masculinity, which is interesting.
Like you said, as I wonder where those guys are
inherently getting that. What in us tells us that the
men should be selfless. I was reading article on the
Titanic the other day and the women and children like,
(04:43):
go first, that's inherent in us that the man should
sacrifice himself so that the women and the children go like,
why is that inherently in us? And you and I
would say, well, that's biblical. That's the ultimate example of
that was Christ laying his life down.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Greater love hath no man than this. Yeah, it's like
the captain goes down with the ship. That's the thing,
and that kind of translates into the family sphere, the
career world, the team, laying your life down as the
captain of the ship or the leader of the household,
(05:22):
or the teammate who goes all out for his team,
like you reward a player when you see that they
have blood on their pants and mud and you go, man,
what do you say? You say, he gave it all
for his team. So, like you said, no matter our worldview,
that's especially right now in twenty twenty four, everyone is
(05:43):
agreen that part of masculinity means giving yourself up for
the greater people or group or family or team, and
that is an echo in Christian what we look toward
in Jesus as he gave his life up for us,
(06:07):
us meaning the people that believe that he did that,
and God enters his own creation and suffers in it.
So suffering is a part of this as well. And
I agree with you. I didn't think this is where
this is going. This is what's beautiful about ant Man
finding these videos because it's like, hey, we're going to
We're gonna do a podcast answering a question about masculinity
which gets asked all the time, and ant Man's like,
(06:31):
here's how you're going to do it, so we're reacting
to both of us might be a little caught off guard,
and it I think it's good perspective. Let's see if
this video has anything else.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
To say and all, because what happens is they're so confused.
They were taught they're not supposed to have the authority.
They want that authority, but somehow they feel guilty about
that authority, and then they feel conflicted because they're doing
these particular things.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
That's interesting.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
I mean, that whole idea of accepting responsibility, I think
is a huge one.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
So I don't mind telling you that.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
But I my formation in this comes from my Catholic worldview.
And by the way, I always spind it funny when
people are on shows and they say, hey, you've been successful, John,
tell us what the key to your success is, and
they are talking about a lot of different things, and
then one of them happens to be and oh, by
the way, my faith, and the person's like, I don't
want the actual answer, I want the fake one that's
(07:20):
going to be placating my audience. So like, for me,
if you said what drives me is my atheism, and
I doubt that you're an atheist, I don't know, that's
not my point. Or if you said it's that I'm
a Stoic or I am a Catholic or a Buddhist, I.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Would be interested in that answer, because that's your answer.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
So that's why I'm telling you what mine is, because
otherwise people try to guess and it makes it a
little easier. So my worldview on this is that really
what it takes to be a man are these things
that you said, by the way, is super important, but
also the ability to sacrifice for a woman exactly, and
if you're doing that sacrifice, I think it comes in
a whole way, which brings back together that earlier conversation. Truly,
(07:57):
a man is a guy who's I'm attracted to this woman,
and I do want something naturally from a physical perspective.
But even though I want that, I see you as
a whole person, not an object, but as a subject.
Therefore you want something too, which is a commitment, and
ultimately both want that because also women do want sex.
Men want sex. Men want to commitment. Women want to
(08:18):
commit but it comes maybe a different order for a guy.
So the guy has to work against his natural self
to say, because I respect you, I'm willing to suffer
for you in the beginning of the relationship may not
work out, but in the beginning of the relationship, I'm
going to resist a desire that I have and then
ultimately for me, I believe that commitment comes after marriage.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
But I also realize help so very loose on all
this right, Like he's he's just super loose. He's this guy.
I don't know this guy. But what we see a
lot in the podcast world is, look, this is your truth.
This is my truth. That's fine, that's great. I respect
your truth. Here's my truth. And I don't know if
(08:59):
he really believes that. But in the podcast world, you
want to say it because you don't want to offend anybody.
But in reality, he's pulling from a he's pulling from
a worldview that sounds a lot like, Jesus, what were you.
I think what we're gonna get on this next one
is a little more what you expected. But what were
(09:20):
you thinking with the whole David Goggins thing, because that
was a phenomenon that you and I both kind of
experienced in twenty seventeen ish.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Yeah, I think that our past generation's idea of manhood was,
you know, John Wayne type character, someone who who was
like stereotypically masculine in that he could, he could fight,
he could shoot, he could live off the land, he
could use his hands, and he stood up for what
he believed in. And then we've transitioned as a society
(09:51):
from that being the ideal, you know, ideal masculinity to
a more passive masculinity that almost embraces feminism, that takes
a back seat in many ways, that doesn't stand up
for anything, that is just more passive.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And so we have.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
These these these leaders come up, like the Joe Rogan's,
the Jordan Peterson's, and then the David Goggins is a
little bit more like brute, just vulgar to the extreme
version of that that people have kind of clung onto
as millions and millions of young men are lost and
searching for meaning and trying to figure out who they
(10:33):
are and they and then Jordan Peterson comes along and
is extremely intelligent and says, I know exactly who you are,
and I know exactly what your purpose is for life.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
And he can.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Articulate things so well and speak at the speed that
he thinks. And I remember being twenty four years old
and borderline agnostic of well, who knows if the Christian
God is the only god?
Speaker 1 (10:59):
You know?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
If I was born in India, maybe i'd believe this.
If I was born in China, maybe I'd believe this.
What is my purpose? And my dad died when I
was twenty and I didn't have a lot of male
role models in my life, and I clung on to
Jordan Peterson. And Jordan Peterson has some I don't want
to go too long on a tangent on this. He
has some incredible, incredible things that are extremely helpful.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I'm not dogging on them. I still listen to a
lot of things he says.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
But ultimately, guys like Jordan Peterson will say, like I said,
I know who you are, I know what your purpose is.
I know what your problem is, and it's that you're
not bearing enough responsibility in your life. And so Jordan
Peterson would come and he'd quote Luke nine carry your
cross daily and he'd say, I know what this means
for you, young men. Stand up, make up your bed, clean
(11:41):
up your room. Luke nine, Carry your Cross means you
need to bear ultimate responsibility in your life. Take on responsibility,
get a job, be responsible, have a family, provide for them, Carrie,
and he even he even used God's name in vane when
he was describing me. He said carry your cross daily
and I was like, yeah, that that's my purpose is
to bear ultimate responsibility. So and then you have the
(12:05):
David Goggins that are a much more just vulgar, vulgar
version of that of just destroy your enemies, stop being mediocre,
which has good principles for the passivity that's wrong with
with masculinity today, but ultimately it's neither of those options
(12:25):
are are related in Christ.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So what that what that's doing, and what that video
that we just watched is doing, and what Goggins is doing,
and what Peterson's doing is there they're matching up. It's
kind of like we saw the total eclipse yesterday. They're
they're matching up these what people want to hear with
what the culture is doing right now, and when it's
(12:48):
a perfect match, everything works well. Tim Keller talks about
this how you can't you can't match masculinity with what
the culture is doing because that's not a timeline way
to do it. For instance, Tim Keller, I'm gonna try
my best to remember I remember hearing this a long
time ago, he describes it like a that a medieval
(13:10):
warrior is. He's he's strong in battle, and he also
has a sexual tendency to love men. So that sexual
tendency to love men is looked down upon in the
Middle Ages, but to be a warrior looked has looked
(13:32):
well upon. So he's gonna highlight that and suppress the other.
Highlight the warrior. Do you remember Tim Keller saying this,
I don't remember what book it was. Highlight the warrior,
suppress the sexual urge. In twenty twenty four, you have
a man that like that loves other men, and he
is also aggressive, like a warrior. So in twenty twenty four,
(13:55):
he's gonna suppress the aggression and he's gonna highlight the
sexual urge. And so both of these men are exactly
the same, the medieval warrior and the man in twenty
twenty four. They're the same, with two different traits about
them that one they will highlight and one they will suppress.
(14:16):
All because culture is agreeing with one in one era
and culture is agreeing with the other in the other era.
And so it's the same man. And so that that
is building a worldview of masculinity on culture and agreeing
with culture. Right, let's let's look at this video.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
I believe that masculinity essentially died in the West and
women became masculine to try to step into that role.
I think that, you know, forty fifty sixty years ago,
women became the guardians of masculinity to create order and
structure when men died or checked out largely. Then we
had a written emergence or a rising, a rebirth of masculine,
(14:56):
but a child version. I think it was shepherded by
women in the seventies and eighties, maybe the nineties. Child
masculinity of okay, mom, i'll be good, i'll be nice,
i'll be happy, I'll do whatever you tell me too.
I think that rose up and we had a lot
of happy wife, happy life became the message during that time.
I think that now we're in the middle, or we're
maybe at the tail end of what I would call
(15:18):
juvenile masculinity. The reborn masculinity has been going through its
turbulent teenage years with look at me, I can bang
a pile of supermodels every night. How many bugattis do
you have? I'm buff, I'm tough, nobody tells me what
to do. We're regaining personal sovereignty, which is the first
real step of masculinity.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Okay, so there's two there's two words just right off
the bat that is what a that's a sixty second clip.
Two words that he says, one reborn and two sovereignty,
two very biblical words. And this is another video that's
kind of relating to using women and the rise of
(15:57):
the power of women, as if that's hurting masculinity in
a way. But that's that's their definition of it, that's
getting hurt. And he says, you need to be reborn basically,
and you need to gain sovereignty. So both of those
used in opposite ways, really opposite ways of what the
(16:20):
Bible says and so gaining Parker, I want to ask
you what does it mean to gain personal sovereignty? In fact,
what is the danger of striving with a purpose to
gain personal sovereignty?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, it's interesting that what he was saying about like
a juvenile masculinity of to a certain extent, you're going
from just like pure passivity to being reborn. Like we're
all religious, right, whether we admit it or not. Being
reborn we're all we're all serving one thing or another,
and so I don't know, that's just so interesting to
(16:57):
think that juvenile masculinity of your just going purely for
like these fleshly desires of like we're seeing a generation
of men that are just going for women, money and power, right,
And he's basically saying that's taking some form of personal sovereignty,
or I think what he means by that is personal
responsibility of like the Jocko Willink Navy seal idea that
(17:20):
you're the only thing that you can control is your
reaction to certain situations and basically everything, taking ultimate responsibility
basically for everything that happens in your life. And so
all that to say, I think that personal responsibility can
have good intentions initially of taking that responsibility, just like
(17:43):
Jordan Peterson was talking about of it starts with the
man taking responsibility and not being the victim like you
were talking about before, where in twenty twenty four it's
it's much more popular for the man to just play
the victim, to just sit back. So that's good that
you start taking personal responses ability. But then to answer
your question, where that can become dangerous is if you say,
(18:06):
I am in control of literally everything that happens to me,
and so it's good to take personal responsibility for things
and to claim things when they don't go your way.
But then it gets dangerous when you start when you
start thinking that you are ultimately what John Piper would
call self determinant and.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Thinking that.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Whatever I choose.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Is mine is ultimate.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
If that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, And what we're seeing with both of these videos
is is two guys three actually claiming that this is
the way to do it. We figured out the way
to be a man. And what it's doing, back to
the tim Keller thing, is it's aligning this with culture.
So here's what culture says, and here's here's how we
could make this work. Because then my question is to them,
(19:02):
because of why, how do you know that? How do
you know that this isn't just the Middle Ages and
homosexual reality is bad and warrior good? Or how do
you know it's not twenty twenty four homosexually homosexuality good,
warrior bad? Suppress or raise up, Raise up or suppress?
How do you know the difference? There needs to be
(19:23):
an underlying truth, right that we could lean on, that
we could grasp a hold of so that we're not
deceived by the changing winds of culture or this swinging
pendulum that happens through the decades where it's like the
strong man in the nineteen forties and submissive wife, and
(19:45):
then by Vietnam the wife raises up and the man
becomes submissive, and then it keeps going, and then the
woman gains power and then the man. Now the pendulum
swings and now the man needs to be raising up
in and the woman needs to be more. It's this
mess that no one really understands why. But they're just
(20:05):
swinging the pendulum, reacting to culture, overreacting way out into
you know, left field, on reacting to the news they
see living on CNN or Fox News, which whichever far
left or far right they want, and they're reacting and
going this is the answer. And so part of this
podcast and what I've done, what I what I desire
(20:28):
from this podcast is not to ever give people direct
right answers, which we are here shortly we're going to
answer this ourselves. But I want to help people be
able to think through problems. And so instead of just
giving people answer answer answer my girlfriend left me, what
do I do you know I'm pregnant, What should I do? Whatever?
(20:51):
These are all these questions I get. Instead of saying here,
do this, do this, I would rather equip people to
think with their own brain yes, and know where to
build that thought those answers from what foundation to build
them upon? And so I think that's part of the
problem with these clips is these men they're not basing
(21:13):
it on anything besides their own culture and their own lives.
In twenty twenty four, right, this show is sponsored by Betterhelp.
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Speaker 4 (21:28):
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message from me to whoever you want. Okay, so we've
reacted to these videos, Park, and now we need to
kind of get in ourselves dig in here and discuss
what it means to be a man, because that's always
(23:15):
the question that comes in, how to be a man,
how to be the You know, I'm eighteen, I'm nineteen,
my girlfriend's pregnant, I want to get married. I didn't
have a good father growing up. How to be a man,
and so there's entire books written on this. So we're
not going to answer it in ten minutes, right, We're
not going to give a full answer in ten minutes.
But when we, like you and I both would do
(23:38):
we base all of our answers on the Bible. We
start with the Bible and we build up from there.
That's the foundation. So, for instance, it in the Beatitudes,
Jesus says a lot of amazing things that are very
countercultural and whatever culture you're in, for instance, Matthew five five,
blessed are the meek, for these inherit the earth. This,
(24:02):
this idea of meekness is often thought of as weakness
by people today, and so it's like, I don't want
to be weak. I don't want to be inactive. I
want to be active. I want to be I want
to be a warrior. I want to I want to
go to battle. But it's crazy because actually meekness is
not an inactive word. It's very active. It is an
(24:24):
active power under control, harnessing power under control, not being
sovereign like that one guy said, but being under the
control of the sovereign right Galatians five twenty two. Throw
some of these out. But the fruit of the spirit
(24:45):
is love, joy, peace, for Baran's kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness,
and self control. Against such things is no law. So
here it is again. You could you could say what
does it mean to be a man? You could just
fill in right here Galatians five twenty two. The fruit
(25:06):
of that have someone who has the fruit of the spirit,
which is love, joy, peace, for Barent's kind as, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness,
and self control, which is gonna. I agree with with
Jesus here in Matthew five to five Philippians two three
and four. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather,
in humility, value others above yourself, not looking to your
(25:28):
own interest, but each of you to the interest of others,
remembering Jeremna seventeen nine, I put this in here. The
heart is deceitful above all things, and beyond cure. Who
can understand it? Someone who Proverbs three five trust in
the Lord with all their heart, and it says, and
lean not on your own understanding in all your ways,
(25:50):
submit to Him, and He will make your path right.
One Peter five. Five. Once again I just grabbed random
stuff here for conversation purpose. One Peter five to five.
All of you clothe yourself with humility towards one another.
God opposes the proud, but shows favor to the humble.
Humble you humble yourselves therefore under God's mighty hand, that
(26:15):
he may lift you up in due time. And here's
the most interesting one for this concept. I've preached on
this before. One Corinthians sixteen thirteen, and the ESV tells
us to be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act
like men, be strong. When he says Paul says act
like men. That's the only time in the New Testament
(26:37):
when it's translated that way, when he says it that way.
In every other time, Old and New Testament, it is
be courageous or have courage, So he act like men
is being used just like you would say, be courageous.
(26:58):
But every other time, especially when you dive into the
Old Testament, and you see, like in the Book of Joshua,
right right after Moses hands them hands them all authority
to take the people into the Promised Land. And there's
a lot of talk between Moses and then Joshua and
to the people of be courageous, And it's always in
(27:22):
terms of be obedient, be obedient to your God who
has brought you here. That's how you be courageous, That's
how you act like men. Paul saying, so, how do
you take all this, Parker and then say, well, what
does it mean to be a man? And then also
kind of put that on top of these videos that
(27:42):
we've seen of these men saying you need to lay
your life down, you need to be the leader. How
do you do that and be meek and have the
fruits of the spirit with gentleness and self control, and
stand firm in the faith and act like men, which
means means obedience when the flash is not wanting you
(28:04):
to be obedient. How do you go there?
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yeah, I'll I'll try to give a short answer and
then try to relate it back to you because you're
gonna know a lot more than me. But I was
just thinking, as you were talking about, Like, if I'm
listening to you say that stuff, I'm just like, what
does that even look like? Practically, Like you're telling me
that a man is his characteristics are love, joy, peace,
and patience. Like that sounds like a beta male in
(28:26):
khakis and a gigantic collared shirt and he's like one
hundred and thirty pounds and he's just like hiding in
the back.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
So that was my first thought.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
And then and then I was thinking a little bit
more about you know, one of the things that you
might be bringing up in a little bit is just
how the Bible describes as a man as the head
of the household in the marriage. The man is the head,
he's the leader. He's the one who is who is
(28:58):
called to be the leader of the house. And then
practically what does that mean? Where do we get this
this idea of you know, to protect and then to provide, Well,
it's through how does he do that through? You know,
it's sacrificial and so to protect? Where do we get
all these these stereotypes of like you got to be
like muscular and then you have to have a beard
(29:18):
right to be a man. And well, I think that
inherently it comes from a source of like protection, right,
we we want to appear that we could protect our household.
Or if you're a single guy, then you want a
woman to know that you could protect her. So like
inherently we want to be uh, you know, stronger and
then to provide to the stereotype is that you should
(29:44):
be able to you know, like work with your hands
and be able to hunt and fish and like all
those things inherently say that you know, I'm I'm able
to provide. So if you're able to think just like
one layer deeper in the onion of like our stereotypes
of Okay, I need to be jack, have a beard, wear.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
A flannel shirt, have an axe in my hand, and
be a lumberjack.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
B yeah, and be able to survive when when we
have to go off grid, when when Biden gets re
elected in the world shuts down now. But so just
thinking one layer deep rev inherently you know, to protect,
to provide, and how all that inherently is is built
through what scripture teaches. And then so I'll just I'll
(30:30):
relate it back to you of like you know, what
does that practically look like for the guy sitting there
listening there and he's like, cool, you just spewed a
bunch of Bible verses at me. What am What am
I practically supposed to do with that? And I'll kind
of footnote that with like to either where you want
to go with it. Of Jordan Peterson would answer, and
(30:52):
I'm just using him as example because he's such a
huge voice right now in masculinity in the world. And
Joe Rogan would say the same thing. Of to answer
your question, Granger, to be a man is to bear
the heaviest load that I can in society, to find
ultimate responsibility, bear that on my back, take it up
(31:13):
the hill, and try to make the people around me better,
and then that will justify, as he would say, my
miserable existence on this floating rock. And that's the best
that we got to justify our existence is just bear responsibility,
which has great traits in it, but ultimately it's not
it's not the Gospel, and it's not it's not necessarily
(31:36):
the example of Christ.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yeah, so a lot of stuff, like you said earlier,
I agree with Peterson in a lot of things I do.
I mean, Twelve Rules for Life is just a fantastic book,
and I'd recommend that to anybody. He actually reads the
Sermon on the Mount in one of those chapters, like
chapter six or something. It's been several years since I
read it, but he reads, Blessed are the meek, for
(32:00):
they shall inherit the earth, and he agrees with that,
and I agree with Peterson. What I think the point
I'm making is Peterson is today's voice, But who's the
voice in twenty thirty four. Who's the voice in twenty
forty four? And the reason we have to be careful
with these the voices that rise and fall, is that
(32:21):
where is Peterson getting his information from. He's just getting
data and research from his short life. And he's a
psychiatrist and he's done work on green couches for the
last couple decades, and that's his data point that he's collected.
But when that starts changing, and it will as the
(32:42):
pendulum swings and as more conservative people get in office,
and there's less need to rise up against the people
they don't like than what is necessary to be a
man if you're basing it on society and culture changes.
Whole argument I made about the medieval man. So it's
(33:03):
not that Peterson's wrong, it's not even that Joe Rogan
is wrong. There's things that Joe Rogan and I are
gonna line up perfectly if he was sitting in here
right now. There are things that if I say, hey,
how do I raise my family? Give me ten things
to raise my family, Rogan's gonna give me five or
six or seven things that I'm like, yeah, that's good.
And then we're gonna disagree, like on two or three things.
(33:26):
So it's not that Rogan is wrong, it's not that
Peterson's wrong or that they're right, it's where are they
where they basing their argument from? Which is what I
want to help on this podcast is get people to
think biblically, think on something that is timeless. Think about
the creator of the universe provides guidelines for us, and
(33:47):
he says, blessed or the meek, for they shall inherit
the earth. Why because because you need that to happen. God,
God doesn't need us for anything. He doesn't need us
at all. That also doesn't mean he doesn't love us.
Just because he doesn't need us doesn't mean he doesn't
love us. Instead, he says, this is how you're wired,
this is how it created you. You will do better
(34:09):
you will have an abundant life here on earth if
you do these things, if you serve others, if you
treat others as more value as yourself, if you love
your enemies, if you forgive, if you're meek instead of
overbearing and overpower powering, if you're held within, hold your
(34:30):
power within, have obedience to me, and hold yourself under
self control, with gentleness and respect and kindness and goodness.
You do these things. I don't need you to do them.
I'm saying you do them because I created you in
this way. Just like Ford Motor Company made a power
stroke to run on diesel. You put diesel in here
(34:50):
and you'll do well. You put gasoline in here, it's awful.
And so these are our guideline. This is what we
base masculinity on is through the Bible. In fact, there's
not a chapter in the Bible that says, here's how
to be a man. We read it as a whole
as we learn who he is who created man. And notice,
I'm not even going to the man and woman thing.
(35:12):
I'm not even going to the household thing. Because I
have men listening to this, I have women listening to this.
I have boys listening to this that aren't married, I
have a single people, so that that's not necessarily This
isn't This isn't a discussion about how men are supposed
to be within the relationship or within a family. This
is men in general. You will do well if you
(35:36):
are gentle and have self control, and have love and
peace and forbearance and kindness, if you're watchful, if you
stand firm in the faith, which is stand firm in
your belief, which to stand firm in your trust, and
to trust is to know if you know your God.
He could say that, say it that way. If you
know your God and you know him well, you will
(35:56):
rest in him, and you'll you'll do well.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Starts with with us as men bending the knee to
our creator, which is not inherent in us. We're inherently prideful.
And a lot of men are being told that Jesus
is he made us because we're lonely, because he or
he made us because he was lonely, right, and that
(36:20):
he's just desperately trying to have a relationship with you.
Please please please, I need you, I need you so much,
I'm so lonely. Please and like an insecure boyfriend, right,
like an insecure boyfriend exactly. And I remember you get
in one of your talks on masculinity. You were talking
about this this big God that you found when you
(36:42):
when you read the scriptures, and he's more like a general.
That is, you know, no one is too lost for Christ,
like he is calling you.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
And he is.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Tender and gentle and lowly, but he is also mighty.
And when men come anywhere to looking at his face
in the Bible, they fall to their knees and they
can't even look at him because of the brightness and
the purity of the light. God is a general and
you're on the ground and he's saying, get up and
follow me. Yeah, And so it's a it's a bigger
(37:14):
call than than the the insecure boyfriend. And and that
that walk of true masculinity begins when we bend the
need to our creator and acknowledge, acknowledge our sin before
him and our need of a savior, which just destroys
everything in your in your prideful heart.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah. So so now let's get to the question that
you said, well, how does that look practically? You talked
about the guy and the khakis in the shirt and
you know, big shirt and and and then we're comparing
that to the you know what the world says. You
got this guy, this lumberjack guy with with you know,
harry chest and a flannel shirt, and he's holding an
axe in his hand. So I love how you said.
(38:00):
And that's how I responded when I first started understanding
who God is, and that will be a journey as
I continue. I don't. I still have so much to learn,
and that will be a journey till the end of
my life, learning more and more, pulling back those layers,
like you said, of who he is. But as we
begin to see him for who he is, we see
(38:20):
a general. We see a football coach that goes, I
know this season has been hard, but I have a
game plan. Follow me, do this and you'll be well right.
A general that goes, I know this battle has been tough,
but I know I will win the war. Who's with me? Men,
it's that guy, and I stand up and through that
(38:42):
I go, I'm ready. Put me in, coach, put me
on the first lines. General, when I'm on the front
lines with you, because you're the general, the guy that's
promising victory. When I'm on the front lines with that guy,
I'm ready to go. And that is meekness. It's like
I could go all over the place on this battlefield,
I could do everything, but I want to follow this guy.
So it's that submission and meekness and following the general
(39:08):
and through that, what do I look like? What is
that guy in the front lines who's following the general.
Does he look weak? Does he look intimidated? Does he
look like he's surrendering to the enemy. Not at all.
He's the guy on the front lines. So when you
have a man practically that has seventeen guns, you know,
(39:32):
all hidden all around the house, he's he has, you know,
an overt desire to be controlling and to be the
man of the house and the protector, and if things
fall apart, it's on him, and if they run out
(39:52):
of money, it's on him. The guy that becomes overly
obsessed by that is someone who is lacking love, joy,
peace for Baron's kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control.
The mirror image of that is the guy that goes
I have some stuff. I responsibly protect my family, but
(40:15):
I have a God that I trust, a general that
I will go to war with, and I know he
is in control, not me. That guy when you just
look at you could look at that. It's almost the
same guy on camera. It's the same guy, but there's
one of them has a trust in something that is
not his own and not a personal sovereignty like the
other guy said in that video. He has a sovereignty
(40:37):
and a great God who is the sovereign, not his
personal sovereignty. Like I said, I will say one more time.
I want to encourage people to think on their own,
and I don't want people to email. It's been years
of people emailing saying how do I do this specific
thing in this specific scenario, specific piece of my life?
(40:59):
And I would say to that, I would say, great,
here's what I would do, But you need to eventually
you need to know how I come up with what
I would do? Like where am I getting that from?
I don't just have a rolodex in my head of
scenarios that play out. It always would just go back
to what does God say? How does how has he
revealed himself in his word? Not once again, not because
(41:23):
he needs us or because he's lonely, but so that
it will be well with us. He's giving He's given
us an instruction manual on how He built us, and
we do that and we follow that and ultimately these things,
these fruits of the spirit start to manifest themselves. Love, joy,
peace for parents, kindness, goodness, not because of anything we
(41:45):
earn or do, but because of what Christ did for
us at the Cross, becoming the substitute for us, because
all of us have fallen short of the glory of God,
all of us have fallen short of trying to earn
our acceptance with God. And so knowing that God did
that through Christ, you know that, you believe, that, you trust,
(42:09):
that you submit to that. That's that's what it looks
like to be a real man.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
Just quickly, as we close, I'll just share like my
personal experience with with masculinity. Kind of good that goes
along with with the way you just concluded, was is
the idea of I recently finished a book called Rescuing Ambition,
And so there's this idea and Christianity of a rescue
or a redeeming, and to redeem is to set back
to its original purpose. So if you're a guy and
(42:38):
you're listening to this, like you know that you're built
to work. Man, We're like, we're like work dogs, Like
give us a sled, and like we're going to go
pull and we're going to go, you know, pull something,
and we're going to go carry a load. And but
when we're born, the Bible says that we naturally turn
away from God and we we worship and serve ourselves
(42:59):
and create things. And so like I remember being a
guy in my twenties is just like, you know, I
had a great dad growing up, and so I feel
like I had a pretty good head on my shoulders
and so I wasn't like overcompensating like you see some
of these guys that I think, anyway, I won't get
down that road. But a lot of times when you
(43:20):
hear these very vulgar guys talking about masculinity, it turns
out they had like a dad that abused them or
left them and abandoned them. And I think that a
lot of it's rooted in that. But I remember being
in my twenties and being like, I know that I
had a dad who loved me, but I was still
searching for purpose, I guess.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
And so.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
And so I remember hearing Jordan Peterson talk about the
dominance hierarchy and how we're all in a All men
are in a hierarchy. And so I thought, well, okay,
if I'm going to play this game of life, I
want to be at the top. I want to be
in the top one percent. And Peterson talked about men
(43:59):
are are valued based on their income and then their
physical strength, because just like we're talking about protect and provide,
So to provide is your income, and then to protect
is like is your physical strength. So you know jiu jitsu, guns,
(44:19):
that sort of thing. And so my ultimate goal is
to make as much money as possible to reach the
top of that dominant archy. Why so that I could
get the glory and the honor and the power for myself.
Because I only had one life. And so when I
became a Christian and I considered the claims of Christ
and I became convinced of the resurrection, God then redeems
(44:44):
you or switches you back to your original purpose. It
gives you a new heart that actually wants to give
the glory and honor to God. And so it's not
to say that you just lay down and you go
to sleep and nothing matters anymore. But it's to say
that you have a new purpose now and new desires
for the glory of God rather than yourself. And I
(45:07):
think that that framework is just important to put in place,
because otherwise, if you're listening to this and you've just
been given a to do list of stuff, then it
could not be helpful. But I don't know, does that
make sense?
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Yeah, yeah, totally. It's interesting that you said that, because
it made me think that it's unfortunate that the word
meek rhymes with weak in the English, right, it's like
an unfortunate problem that it meet rhymes with weak. But
you know the original word for meek, what that came from.
(45:42):
When Jesus said that that's not a throwaway word, when
he said that it was known back then that the
wild mustangs the ones that you wanted, the ones that
the warriors wanted to go into battle with. Those weren't
the workhorses. Those weren't the horses that pulled, you know,
pulled around through the fields and made grain. Those those
(46:04):
weren't the ones that you took back and forth to
the well. Like the war horses were different. So the
warrior men would go to the tops of the mountains,
that's where they found them. They'd go past all the
other wild mustangs and they'd go to the top where
the powerful ones were, the wild ones, and they would
find these these mustangs. Have you heard this, These these
(46:26):
warrior men would find the wildest of the wild and
you'd see him up there on the on the cliff,
muscles just gleaming in the sunlight. You know, it's like,
I want that horse. That's my battle horse. So they
would they would battle for they would fight for a
week to finally get this horse. They would track them
from hilltop to hilltop, and they would finally wear the
(46:47):
horse out where was just so exhausted and the men
were able to overtake it with the horses they were with,
and they would take this horse and break it. One
warrior would break this horse. And then once he broke
that wild horse, that horse trusted that master to the end.
It trusted the master because that was the one that
(47:08):
was finally able to harness all that power. And so
he took that horse, and that horse would go into
battle with him and run against the big line of
barbarians and go right into that line and not stop
until commanded to. Only a horse like that would run
into the death going master, you tell me when to stop.
(47:29):
If you don't tell me to stop, I move forward.
That is what is considered a meek horse. So when
Jesus says blessed are the meek, that's a whole new
meaning for masculinity. Love you guys, see you next episode.
Thanks for joining me on the Grangersmith Podcast. I appreciate
(47:52):
all of you guys. You could help me out by
rating this podcasts on iTunes. If you're on YouTube, subscribe
to this channel. Hit that little button and the notification
spell so that you never miss anytime I upload a video.
If you have a question for me that you would
like me to answer, email Grangersmith Podcast at gmail dot com.
(48:13):
Gig
Got Parker, my brother, with me today. Haven't you haven't
been on the podcast in a while, It's been a
long time. We are talking today continuing a kind of
a trend we've done on this podcast where we answer
your questions if you email podcast at grangersmith dot com.
And the trend has been that I take kind of
the most popular questions to me and bundle them and
(00:34):
we discussed that, and one of the most popular questions
I get is about masculinity in a way of saying,
in other words, what is it? What does it mean
to be a man? What is a man? Which is
surprisingly in twenty twenty four a thing, and that changes,
(01:00):
Believe it or not, it changes over millennia, over centuries,
even over decades. That answer changes depending on your worldview.
The most common understanding of what does it be what
does it mean to be a man? Today? The most
common kind of knee jerk reaction to that is strong
(01:22):
burrely able to work with this, hands, doesn't submit to
anyone or anything, uses brute force for protection if you
if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything,
like that old Aaron tip and nineties country song. So
that's kind of what we're going to dive in today.
Ant Man has provided us a few videos, and so Parker,
(01:45):
I've have like I've seen I kind of know the premise,
but I have not seen these videos. So you and
I are going to experience it for the first time.
What does it mean to be a man?
Speaker 2 (01:56):
You know, I've described this in a variety of different
ways every time I answered this question. I've written a
whole essay on this thing, but I'll give it to
you just off the top of my head right now, because,
like I said, I think that you can talk about
it in different ways, but I think primarily it means
to be responsible for yourself, but not just yourself, but
to be able to take care of others. Because it's
the minimum bar of a man to not be a
(02:20):
negative on society, right, But a man, a true man,
needs to not be able to just take care of himself,
but be able to take care of other people to
be a net.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
So I guess we should ask like this, So far
are we in agreeance with this guy? The minimum bar
of being a man is don't be a menace to society,
And what you're moving for is to be a protector
within society.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
I guess let's.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Get some more data because I'm kind of with you here.
Let's continue to be a net positive, right.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
That's why I advocate for men paying for dates and
taking care of women and doing those things, because.
Speaker 4 (03:00):
It was just strangely offensive to a certain population.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I like, it amazes me that it's the same, you know,
it just drives me nus because I have a podcast
with my wife called Better Than Perfect and we talk
about traditional relationships on there, and there would be so
many angry guys commenting on it that are like, she
should pay for her own stuff. I'm not going to
pay for And I'm like, these are the exact same
(03:25):
guys that are upset about feminism, And yeah, I'm like right,
cause you can't have it both ways. Like if you
want women to be feminine and you want to be mouse,
you want to be the authority in your house and
be the man, you got to pay for everything. That's
that's how it is, Like you got to take care
of everybody if you want that authority. But it's the
same guys, and it just drives me nuts because.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
So this is the thing. It's like, you need to
be strong and you need to be a protector, and
you need to provide that's what it means to be
a man. Where does that come from? What's the foundation
of that? Is that stainable?
Speaker 3 (04:01):
Yeah, it's interesting because I thought that this was going
to go. I thought that this initial video is going
to go in a different direction of more of just
the David Goggins route or a little bit more straightforward
pushing through obstacles equals masculinity, And this is already immediately
(04:22):
going to more of a selflessness defines masculinity, which is interesting.
Like you said, as I wonder where those guys are
inherently getting that. What in us tells us that the
men should be selfless. I was reading article on the
Titanic the other day and the women and children like,
(04:43):
go first, that's inherent in us that the man should
sacrifice himself so that the women and the children go like,
why is that inherently in us? And you and I
would say, well, that's biblical. That's the ultimate example of
that was Christ laying his life down.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Greater love hath no man than this. Yeah, it's like
the captain goes down with the ship. That's the thing,
and that kind of translates into the family sphere, the
career world, the team, laying your life down as the
captain of the ship or the leader of the household,
(05:22):
or the teammate who goes all out for his team,
like you reward a player when you see that they
have blood on their pants and mud and you go, man,
what do you say? You say, he gave it all
for his team. So, like you said, no matter our worldview,
that's especially right now in twenty twenty four, everyone is
(05:43):
agreen that part of masculinity means giving yourself up for
the greater people or group or family or team, and
that is an echo in Christian what we look toward
in Jesus as he gave his life up for us,
(06:07):
us meaning the people that believe that he did that,
and God enters his own creation and suffers in it.
So suffering is a part of this as well. And
I agree with you. I didn't think this is where
this is going. This is what's beautiful about ant Man
finding these videos because it's like, hey, we're going to
We're gonna do a podcast answering a question about masculinity
which gets asked all the time, and ant Man's like,
(06:31):
here's how you're going to do it, so we're reacting
to both of us might be a little caught off guard,
and it I think it's good perspective. Let's see if
this video has anything else.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
To say and all, because what happens is they're so confused.
They were taught they're not supposed to have the authority.
They want that authority, but somehow they feel guilty about
that authority, and then they feel conflicted because they're doing
these particular things.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
That's interesting.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
I mean, that whole idea of accepting responsibility, I think
is a huge one.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
So I don't mind telling you that.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
But I my formation in this comes from my Catholic worldview.
And by the way, I always spind it funny when
people are on shows and they say, hey, you've been successful, John,
tell us what the key to your success is, and
they are talking about a lot of different things, and
then one of them happens to be and oh, by
the way, my faith, and the person's like, I don't
want the actual answer, I want the fake one that's
(07:20):
going to be placating my audience. So like, for me,
if you said what drives me is my atheism, and
I doubt that you're an atheist, I don't know, that's
not my point. Or if you said it's that I'm
a Stoic or I am a Catholic or a Buddhist, I.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Would be interested in that answer, because that's your answer.
Speaker 4 (07:35):
So that's why I'm telling you what mine is, because
otherwise people try to guess and it makes it a
little easier. So my worldview on this is that really
what it takes to be a man are these things
that you said, by the way, is super important, but
also the ability to sacrifice for a woman exactly, and
if you're doing that sacrifice, I think it comes in
a whole way, which brings back together that earlier conversation. Truly,
(07:57):
a man is a guy who's I'm attracted to this woman,
and I do want something naturally from a physical perspective.
But even though I want that, I see you as
a whole person, not an object, but as a subject.
Therefore you want something too, which is a commitment, and
ultimately both want that because also women do want sex.
Men want sex. Men want to commitment. Women want to
(08:18):
commit but it comes maybe a different order for a guy.
So the guy has to work against his natural self
to say, because I respect you, I'm willing to suffer
for you in the beginning of the relationship may not
work out, but in the beginning of the relationship, I'm
going to resist a desire that I have and then
ultimately for me, I believe that commitment comes after marriage.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
But I also realize help so very loose on all
this right, Like he's he's just super loose. He's this guy.
I don't know this guy. But what we see a
lot in the podcast world is, look, this is your truth.
This is my truth. That's fine, that's great. I respect
your truth. Here's my truth. And I don't know if
(08:59):
he really believes that. But in the podcast world, you
want to say it because you don't want to offend anybody.
But in reality, he's pulling from a he's pulling from
a worldview that sounds a lot like, Jesus, what were you.
I think what we're gonna get on this next one
is a little more what you expected. But what were
(09:20):
you thinking with the whole David Goggins thing, because that
was a phenomenon that you and I both kind of
experienced in twenty seventeen ish.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Yeah, I think that our past generation's idea of manhood was,
you know, John Wayne type character, someone who who was
like stereotypically masculine in that he could, he could fight,
he could shoot, he could live off the land, he
could use his hands, and he stood up for what
he believed in. And then we've transitioned as a society
(09:51):
from that being the ideal, you know, ideal masculinity to
a more passive masculinity that almost embraces feminism, that takes
a back seat in many ways, that doesn't stand up
for anything, that is just more passive.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
And so we have.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
These these these leaders come up, like the Joe Rogan's,
the Jordan Peterson's, and then the David Goggins is a
little bit more like brute, just vulgar to the extreme
version of that that people have kind of clung onto
as millions and millions of young men are lost and
searching for meaning and trying to figure out who they
(10:33):
are and they and then Jordan Peterson comes along and
is extremely intelligent and says, I know exactly who you are,
and I know exactly what your purpose is for life.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
And he can.
Speaker 3 (10:43):
Articulate things so well and speak at the speed that
he thinks. And I remember being twenty four years old
and borderline agnostic of well, who knows if the Christian
God is the only god?
Speaker 1 (10:59):
You know?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
If I was born in India, maybe i'd believe this.
If I was born in China, maybe I'd believe this.
What is my purpose? And my dad died when I
was twenty and I didn't have a lot of male
role models in my life, and I clung on to
Jordan Peterson. And Jordan Peterson has some I don't want
to go too long on a tangent on this. He
has some incredible, incredible things that are extremely helpful.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I'm not dogging on them. I still listen to a
lot of things he says.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
But ultimately, guys like Jordan Peterson will say, like I said,
I know who you are, I know what your purpose is.
I know what your problem is, and it's that you're
not bearing enough responsibility in your life. And so Jordan
Peterson would come and he'd quote Luke nine carry your
cross daily and he'd say, I know what this means
for you, young men. Stand up, make up your bed, clean
(11:41):
up your room. Luke nine, Carry your Cross means you
need to bear ultimate responsibility in your life. Take on responsibility,
get a job, be responsible, have a family, provide for them, Carrie,
and he even he even used God's name in vane when
he was describing me. He said carry your cross daily
and I was like, yeah, that that's my purpose is
to bear ultimate responsibility. So and then you have the
(12:05):
David Goggins that are a much more just vulgar, vulgar
version of that of just destroy your enemies, stop being mediocre,
which has good principles for the passivity that's wrong with
with masculinity today, but ultimately it's neither of those options
(12:25):
are are related in Christ.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
So what that what that's doing, and what that video
that we just watched is doing, and what Goggins is doing,
and what Peterson's doing is there they're matching up. It's
kind of like we saw the total eclipse yesterday. They're
they're matching up these what people want to hear with
what the culture is doing right now, and when it's
(12:48):
a perfect match, everything works well. Tim Keller talks about
this how you can't you can't match masculinity with what
the culture is doing because that's not a timeline way
to do it. For instance, Tim Keller, I'm gonna try
my best to remember I remember hearing this a long
time ago, he describes it like a that a medieval
(13:10):
warrior is. He's he's strong in battle, and he also
has a sexual tendency to love men. So that sexual
tendency to love men is looked down upon in the
Middle Ages, but to be a warrior looked has looked
(13:32):
well upon. So he's gonna highlight that and suppress the other.
Highlight the warrior. Do you remember Tim Keller saying this,
I don't remember what book it was. Highlight the warrior,
suppress the sexual urge. In twenty twenty four, you have
a man that like that loves other men, and he
is also aggressive, like a warrior. So in twenty twenty four,
(13:55):
he's gonna suppress the aggression and he's gonna highlight the
sexual urge. And so both of these men are exactly
the same, the medieval warrior and the man in twenty
twenty four. They're the same, with two different traits about
them that one they will highlight and one they will suppress.
(14:16):
All because culture is agreeing with one in one era
and culture is agreeing with the other in the other era.
And so it's the same man. And so that that
is building a worldview of masculinity on culture and agreeing
with culture. Right, let's let's look at this video.
Speaker 5 (14:35):
I believe that masculinity essentially died in the West and
women became masculine to try to step into that role.
I think that, you know, forty fifty sixty years ago,
women became the guardians of masculinity to create order and
structure when men died or checked out largely. Then we
had a written emergence or a rising, a rebirth of masculine,
(14:56):
but a child version. I think it was shepherded by
women in the seventies and eighties, maybe the nineties. Child
masculinity of okay, mom, i'll be good, i'll be nice,
i'll be happy, I'll do whatever you tell me too.
I think that rose up and we had a lot
of happy wife, happy life became the message during that time.
I think that now we're in the middle, or we're
maybe at the tail end of what I would call
(15:18):
juvenile masculinity. The reborn masculinity has been going through its
turbulent teenage years with look at me, I can bang
a pile of supermodels every night. How many bugattis do
you have? I'm buff, I'm tough, nobody tells me what
to do. We're regaining personal sovereignty, which is the first
real step of masculinity.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Okay, so there's two there's two words just right off
the bat that is what a that's a sixty second clip.
Two words that he says, one reborn and two sovereignty,
two very biblical words. And this is another video that's
kind of relating to using women and the rise of
(15:57):
the power of women, as if that's hurting masculinity in
a way. But that's that's their definition of it, that's
getting hurt. And he says, you need to be reborn basically,
and you need to gain sovereignty. So both of those
used in opposite ways, really opposite ways of what the
(16:20):
Bible says and so gaining Parker, I want to ask
you what does it mean to gain personal sovereignty? In fact,
what is the danger of striving with a purpose to
gain personal sovereignty?
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, it's interesting that what he was saying about like
a juvenile masculinity of to a certain extent, you're going
from just like pure passivity to being reborn. Like we're
all religious, right, whether we admit it or not. Being
reborn we're all we're all serving one thing or another,
and so I don't know, that's just so interesting to
(16:57):
think that juvenile masculinity of your just going purely for
like these fleshly desires of like we're seeing a generation
of men that are just going for women, money and power, right,
And he's basically saying that's taking some form of personal sovereignty,
or I think what he means by that is personal
responsibility of like the Jocko Willink Navy seal idea that
(17:20):
you're the only thing that you can control is your
reaction to certain situations and basically everything, taking ultimate responsibility
basically for everything that happens in your life. And so
all that to say, I think that personal responsibility can
have good intentions initially of taking that responsibility, just like
(17:43):
Jordan Peterson was talking about of it starts with the
man taking responsibility and not being the victim like you
were talking about before, where in twenty twenty four it's
it's much more popular for the man to just play
the victim, to just sit back. So that's good that
you start taking personal responses ability. But then to answer
your question, where that can become dangerous is if you say,
(18:06):
I am in control of literally everything that happens to me,
and so it's good to take personal responsibility for things
and to claim things when they don't go your way.
But then it gets dangerous when you start when you
start thinking that you are ultimately what John Piper would
call self determinant and.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Thinking that.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Whatever I choose.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Is mine is ultimate.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
If that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Yeah, And what we're seeing with both of these videos
is is two guys three actually claiming that this is
the way to do it. We figured out the way
to be a man. And what it's doing, back to
the tim Keller thing, is it's aligning this with culture.
So here's what culture says, and here's here's how we
could make this work. Because then my question is to them,
(19:02):
because of why, how do you know that? How do
you know that this isn't just the Middle Ages and
homosexual reality is bad and warrior good? Or how do
you know it's not twenty twenty four homosexually homosexuality good,
warrior bad? Suppress or raise up, Raise up or suppress?
How do you know the difference? There needs to be
(19:23):
an underlying truth, right that we could lean on, that
we could grasp a hold of so that we're not
deceived by the changing winds of culture or this swinging
pendulum that happens through the decades where it's like the
strong man in the nineteen forties and submissive wife, and
(19:45):
then by Vietnam the wife raises up and the man
becomes submissive, and then it keeps going, and then the
woman gains power and then the man. Now the pendulum
swings and now the man needs to be raising up
in and the woman needs to be more. It's this
mess that no one really understands why. But they're just
(20:05):
swinging the pendulum, reacting to culture, overreacting way out into
you know, left field, on reacting to the news they
see living on CNN or Fox News, which whichever far
left or far right they want, and they're reacting and
going this is the answer. And so part of this
podcast and what I've done, what I what I desire
(20:28):
from this podcast is not to ever give people direct
right answers, which we are here shortly we're going to
answer this ourselves. But I want to help people be
able to think through problems. And so instead of just
giving people answer answer answer my girlfriend left me, what
do I do you know I'm pregnant, What should I do? Whatever?
(20:51):
These are all these questions I get. Instead of saying here,
do this, do this, I would rather equip people to
think with their own brain yes, and know where to
build that thought those answers from what foundation to build
them upon? And so I think that's part of the
problem with these clips is these men they're not basing
(21:13):
it on anything besides their own culture and their own lives.
In twenty twenty four, right, this show is sponsored by Betterhelp.
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Speaker 4 (21:28):
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(22:53):
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message from me to whoever you want. Okay, so we've
reacted to these videos, Park, and now we need to
kind of get in ourselves dig in here and discuss
what it means to be a man, because that's always
(23:15):
the question that comes in, how to be a man,
how to be the You know, I'm eighteen, I'm nineteen,
my girlfriend's pregnant, I want to get married. I didn't
have a good father growing up. How to be a man,
and so there's entire books written on this. So we're
not going to answer it in ten minutes, right, We're
not going to give a full answer in ten minutes.
But when we, like you and I both would do
(23:38):
we base all of our answers on the Bible. We
start with the Bible and we build up from there.
That's the foundation. So, for instance, it in the Beatitudes,
Jesus says a lot of amazing things that are very
countercultural and whatever culture you're in, for instance, Matthew five five,
blessed are the meek, for these inherit the earth. This,
(24:02):
this idea of meekness is often thought of as weakness
by people today, and so it's like, I don't want
to be weak. I don't want to be inactive. I
want to be active. I want to be I want
to be a warrior. I want to I want to
go to battle. But it's crazy because actually meekness is
not an inactive word. It's very active. It is an
(24:24):
active power under control, harnessing power under control, not being
sovereign like that one guy said, but being under the
control of the sovereign right Galatians five twenty two. Throw
some of these out. But the fruit of the spirit
(24:45):
is love, joy, peace, for Baran's kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness,
and self control. Against such things is no law. So
here it is again. You could you could say what
does it mean to be a man? You could just
fill in right here Galatians five twenty two. The fruit
(25:06):
of that have someone who has the fruit of the spirit,
which is love, joy, peace, for Barent's kind as, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness,
and self control, which is gonna. I agree with with
Jesus here in Matthew five to five Philippians two three
and four. Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather,
in humility, value others above yourself, not looking to your
(25:28):
own interest, but each of you to the interest of others,
remembering Jeremna seventeen nine, I put this in here. The
heart is deceitful above all things, and beyond cure. Who
can understand it? Someone who Proverbs three five trust in
the Lord with all their heart, and it says, and
lean not on your own understanding in all your ways,
(25:50):
submit to Him, and He will make your path right.
One Peter five. Five. Once again I just grabbed random
stuff here for conversation purpose. One Peter five to five.
All of you clothe yourself with humility towards one another.
God opposes the proud, but shows favor to the humble.
Humble you humble yourselves therefore under God's mighty hand, that
(26:15):
he may lift you up in due time. And here's
the most interesting one for this concept. I've preached on
this before. One Corinthians sixteen thirteen, and the ESV tells
us to be watchful, stand firm in the faith, act
like men, be strong. When he says Paul says act
like men. That's the only time in the New Testament
(26:37):
when it's translated that way, when he says it that way.
In every other time, Old and New Testament, it is
be courageous or have courage, So he act like men
is being used just like you would say, be courageous.
(26:58):
But every other time, especially when you dive into the
Old Testament, and you see, like in the Book of Joshua,
right right after Moses hands them hands them all authority
to take the people into the Promised Land. And there's
a lot of talk between Moses and then Joshua and
to the people of be courageous, And it's always in
(27:22):
terms of be obedient, be obedient to your God who
has brought you here. That's how you be courageous, That's
how you act like men. Paul saying, so, how do
you take all this, Parker and then say, well, what
does it mean to be a man? And then also
kind of put that on top of these videos that
(27:42):
we've seen of these men saying you need to lay
your life down, you need to be the leader. How
do you do that and be meek and have the
fruits of the spirit with gentleness and self control, and
stand firm in the faith and act like men, which
means means obedience when the flash is not wanting you
(28:04):
to be obedient. How do you go there?
Speaker 3 (28:05):
Yeah, I'll I'll try to give a short answer and
then try to relate it back to you because you're
gonna know a lot more than me. But I was
just thinking, as you were talking about, Like, if I'm
listening to you say that stuff, I'm just like, what
does that even look like? Practically, Like you're telling me
that a man is his characteristics are love, joy, peace,
and patience. Like that sounds like a beta male in
(28:26):
khakis and a gigantic collared shirt and he's like one
hundred and thirty pounds and he's just like hiding in
the back.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
So that was my first thought.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
And then and then I was thinking a little bit
more about you know, one of the things that you
might be bringing up in a little bit is just
how the Bible describes as a man as the head
of the household in the marriage. The man is the head,
he's the leader. He's the one who is who is
(28:58):
called to be the leader of the house. And then
practically what does that mean? Where do we get this
this idea of you know, to protect and then to provide, Well,
it's through how does he do that through? You know,
it's sacrificial and so to protect? Where do we get
all these these stereotypes of like you got to be
like muscular and then you have to have a beard
(29:18):
right to be a man. And well, I think that
inherently it comes from a source of like protection, right,
we we want to appear that we could protect our household.
Or if you're a single guy, then you want a
woman to know that you could protect her. So like
inherently we want to be uh, you know, stronger and
then to provide to the stereotype is that you should
(29:44):
be able to you know, like work with your hands
and be able to hunt and fish and like all
those things inherently say that you know, I'm I'm able
to provide. So if you're able to think just like
one layer deeper in the onion of like our stereotypes
of Okay, I need to be jack, have a beard, wear.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
A flannel shirt, have an axe in my hand, and
be a lumberjack.
Speaker 3 (30:04):
B yeah, and be able to survive when when we
have to go off grid, when when Biden gets re
elected in the world shuts down now. But so just
thinking one layer deep rev inherently you know, to protect,
to provide, and how all that inherently is is built
through what scripture teaches. And then so I'll just I'll
(30:30):
relate it back to you of like you know, what
does that practically look like for the guy sitting there
listening there and he's like, cool, you just spewed a
bunch of Bible verses at me. What am What am
I practically supposed to do with that? And I'll kind
of footnote that with like to either where you want
to go with it. Of Jordan Peterson would answer, and
(30:52):
I'm just using him as example because he's such a
huge voice right now in masculinity in the world. And
Joe Rogan would say the same thing. Of to answer
your question, Granger, to be a man is to bear
the heaviest load that I can in society, to find
ultimate responsibility, bear that on my back, take it up
(31:13):
the hill, and try to make the people around me better,
and then that will justify, as he would say, my
miserable existence on this floating rock. And that's the best
that we got to justify our existence is just bear responsibility,
which has great traits in it, but ultimately it's not
it's not the Gospel, and it's not it's not necessarily
(31:36):
the example of Christ.
Speaker 1 (31:37):
Yeah, so a lot of stuff, like you said earlier,
I agree with Peterson in a lot of things I do.
I mean, Twelve Rules for Life is just a fantastic book,
and I'd recommend that to anybody. He actually reads the
Sermon on the Mount in one of those chapters, like
chapter six or something. It's been several years since I
read it, but he reads, Blessed are the meek, for
(32:00):
they shall inherit the earth, and he agrees with that,
and I agree with Peterson. What I think the point
I'm making is Peterson is today's voice, But who's the
voice in twenty thirty four. Who's the voice in twenty
forty four? And the reason we have to be careful
with these the voices that rise and fall, is that
(32:21):
where is Peterson getting his information from. He's just getting
data and research from his short life. And he's a
psychiatrist and he's done work on green couches for the
last couple decades, and that's his data point that he's collected.
But when that starts changing, and it will as the
(32:42):
pendulum swings and as more conservative people get in office,
and there's less need to rise up against the people
they don't like than what is necessary to be a
man if you're basing it on society and culture changes.
Whole argument I made about the medieval man. So it's
(33:03):
not that Peterson's wrong, it's not even that Joe Rogan
is wrong. There's things that Joe Rogan and I are
gonna line up perfectly if he was sitting in here
right now. There are things that if I say, hey,
how do I raise my family? Give me ten things
to raise my family, Rogan's gonna give me five or
six or seven things that I'm like, yeah, that's good.
And then we're gonna disagree, like on two or three things.
(33:26):
So it's not that Rogan is wrong, it's not that
Peterson's wrong or that they're right, it's where are they
where they basing their argument from? Which is what I
want to help on this podcast is get people to
think biblically, think on something that is timeless. Think about
the creator of the universe provides guidelines for us, and
(33:47):
he says, blessed or the meek, for they shall inherit
the earth. Why because because you need that to happen. God,
God doesn't need us for anything. He doesn't need us
at all. That also doesn't mean he doesn't love us.
Just because he doesn't need us doesn't mean he doesn't
love us. Instead, he says, this is how you're wired,
this is how it created you. You will do better
(34:09):
you will have an abundant life here on earth if
you do these things, if you serve others, if you
treat others as more value as yourself, if you love
your enemies, if you forgive, if you're meek instead of
overbearing and overpower powering, if you're held within, hold your
(34:30):
power within, have obedience to me, and hold yourself under
self control, with gentleness and respect and kindness and goodness.
You do these things. I don't need you to do them.
I'm saying you do them because I created you in
this way. Just like Ford Motor Company made a power
stroke to run on diesel. You put diesel in here
(34:50):
and you'll do well. You put gasoline in here, it's awful.
And so these are our guideline. This is what we
base masculinity on is through the Bible. In fact, there's
not a chapter in the Bible that says, here's how
to be a man. We read it as a whole
as we learn who he is who created man. And notice,
I'm not even going to the man and woman thing.
(35:12):
I'm not even going to the household thing. Because I
have men listening to this, I have women listening to this.
I have boys listening to this that aren't married, I
have a single people, so that that's not necessarily This
isn't This isn't a discussion about how men are supposed
to be within the relationship or within a family. This
is men in general. You will do well if you
(35:36):
are gentle and have self control, and have love and
peace and forbearance and kindness, if you're watchful, if you
stand firm in the faith, which is stand firm in
your belief, which to stand firm in your trust, and
to trust is to know if you know your God.
He could say that, say it that way. If you
know your God and you know him well, you will
(35:56):
rest in him, and you'll you'll do well.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
Starts with with us as men bending the knee to
our creator, which is not inherent in us. We're inherently prideful.
And a lot of men are being told that Jesus
is he made us because we're lonely, because he or
he made us because he was lonely, right, and that
(36:20):
he's just desperately trying to have a relationship with you.
Please please please, I need you, I need you so much,
I'm so lonely. Please and like an insecure boyfriend, right,
like an insecure boyfriend exactly. And I remember you get
in one of your talks on masculinity. You were talking
about this this big God that you found when you
(36:42):
when you read the scriptures, and he's more like a general.
That is, you know, no one is too lost for Christ,
like he is calling you.
Speaker 1 (36:51):
And he is.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
Tender and gentle and lowly, but he is also mighty.
And when men come anywhere to looking at his face
in the Bible, they fall to their knees and they
can't even look at him because of the brightness and
the purity of the light. God is a general and
you're on the ground and he's saying, get up and
follow me. Yeah, And so it's a it's a bigger
(37:14):
call than than the the insecure boyfriend. And and that
that walk of true masculinity begins when we bend the
need to our creator and acknowledge, acknowledge our sin before
him and our need of a savior, which just destroys
everything in your in your prideful heart.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah. So so now let's get to the question that
you said, well, how does that look practically? You talked
about the guy and the khakis in the shirt and
you know, big shirt and and and then we're comparing
that to the you know what the world says. You
got this guy, this lumberjack guy with with you know,
harry chest and a flannel shirt, and he's holding an
axe in his hand. So I love how you said.
(38:00):
And that's how I responded when I first started understanding
who God is, and that will be a journey as
I continue. I don't. I still have so much to learn,
and that will be a journey till the end of
my life, learning more and more, pulling back those layers,
like you said, of who he is. But as we
begin to see him for who he is, we see
(38:20):
a general. We see a football coach that goes, I
know this season has been hard, but I have a
game plan. Follow me, do this and you'll be well right.
A general that goes, I know this battle has been tough,
but I know I will win the war. Who's with me? Men,
it's that guy, and I stand up and through that
(38:42):
I go, I'm ready. Put me in, coach, put me
on the first lines. General, when I'm on the front
lines with you, because you're the general, the guy that's
promising victory. When I'm on the front lines with that guy,
I'm ready to go. And that is meekness. It's like
I could go all over the place on this battlefield,
I could do everything, but I want to follow this guy.
So it's that submission and meekness and following the general
(39:08):
and through that, what do I look like? What is
that guy in the front lines who's following the general.
Does he look weak? Does he look intimidated? Does he
look like he's surrendering to the enemy. Not at all.
He's the guy on the front lines. So when you
have a man practically that has seventeen guns, you know,
(39:32):
all hidden all around the house, he's he has, you know,
an overt desire to be controlling and to be the
man of the house and the protector, and if things
fall apart, it's on him, and if they run out
(39:52):
of money, it's on him. The guy that becomes overly
obsessed by that is someone who is lacking love, joy,
peace for Baron's kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self control.
The mirror image of that is the guy that goes
I have some stuff. I responsibly protect my family, but
(40:15):
I have a God that I trust, a general that
I will go to war with, and I know he
is in control, not me. That guy when you just
look at you could look at that. It's almost the
same guy on camera. It's the same guy, but there's
one of them has a trust in something that is
not his own and not a personal sovereignty like the
other guy said in that video. He has a sovereignty
(40:37):
and a great God who is the sovereign, not his
personal sovereignty. Like I said, I will say one more time.
I want to encourage people to think on their own,
and I don't want people to email. It's been years
of people emailing saying how do I do this specific
thing in this specific scenario, specific piece of my life?
(40:59):
And I would say to that, I would say, great,
here's what I would do, But you need to eventually
you need to know how I come up with what
I would do? Like where am I getting that from?
I don't just have a rolodex in my head of
scenarios that play out. It always would just go back
to what does God say? How does how has he
revealed himself in his word? Not once again, not because
(41:23):
he needs us or because he's lonely, but so that
it will be well with us. He's giving He's given
us an instruction manual on how He built us, and
we do that and we follow that and ultimately these things,
these fruits of the spirit start to manifest themselves. Love, joy,
peace for parents, kindness, goodness, not because of anything we
(41:45):
earn or do, but because of what Christ did for
us at the Cross, becoming the substitute for us, because
all of us have fallen short of the glory of God,
all of us have fallen short of trying to earn
our acceptance with God. And so knowing that God did
that through Christ, you know that, you believe, that, you trust,
(42:09):
that you submit to that. That's that's what it looks
like to be a real man.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
Just quickly, as we close, I'll just share like my
personal experience with with masculinity. Kind of good that goes
along with with the way you just concluded, was is
the idea of I recently finished a book called Rescuing Ambition,
And so there's this idea and Christianity of a rescue
or a redeeming, and to redeem is to set back
to its original purpose. So if you're a guy and
(42:38):
you're listening to this, like you know that you're built
to work. Man, We're like, we're like work dogs, Like
give us a sled, and like we're going to go
pull and we're going to go, you know, pull something,
and we're going to go carry a load. And but
when we're born, the Bible says that we naturally turn
away from God and we we worship and serve ourselves
(42:59):
and create things. And so like I remember being a
guy in my twenties is just like, you know, I
had a great dad growing up, and so I feel
like I had a pretty good head on my shoulders
and so I wasn't like overcompensating like you see some
of these guys that I think, anyway, I won't get
down that road. But a lot of times when you
(43:20):
hear these very vulgar guys talking about masculinity, it turns
out they had like a dad that abused them or
left them and abandoned them. And I think that a
lot of it's rooted in that. But I remember being
in my twenties and being like, I know that I
had a dad who loved me, but I was still
searching for purpose, I guess.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
And so.
Speaker 3 (43:39):
And so I remember hearing Jordan Peterson talk about the
dominance hierarchy and how we're all in a All men
are in a hierarchy. And so I thought, well, okay,
if I'm going to play this game of life, I
want to be at the top. I want to be
in the top one percent. And Peterson talked about men
(43:59):
are are valued based on their income and then their
physical strength, because just like we're talking about protect and provide,
So to provide is your income, and then to protect
is like is your physical strength. So you know jiu jitsu, guns,
(44:19):
that sort of thing. And so my ultimate goal is
to make as much money as possible to reach the
top of that dominant archy. Why so that I could
get the glory and the honor and the power for myself.
Because I only had one life. And so when I
became a Christian and I considered the claims of Christ
and I became convinced of the resurrection, God then redeems
(44:44):
you or switches you back to your original purpose. It
gives you a new heart that actually wants to give
the glory and honor to God. And so it's not
to say that you just lay down and you go
to sleep and nothing matters anymore. But it's to say
that you have a new purpose now and new desires
for the glory of God rather than yourself. And I
(45:07):
think that that framework is just important to put in place,
because otherwise, if you're listening to this and you've just
been given a to do list of stuff, then it
could not be helpful. But I don't know, does that
make sense?
Speaker 1 (45:22):
Yeah, yeah, totally. It's interesting that you said that, because
it made me think that it's unfortunate that the word
meek rhymes with weak in the English, right, it's like
an unfortunate problem that it meet rhymes with weak. But
you know the original word for meek, what that came from.
(45:42):
When Jesus said that that's not a throwaway word, when
he said that it was known back then that the
wild mustangs the ones that you wanted, the ones that
the warriors wanted to go into battle with. Those weren't
the workhorses. Those weren't the horses that pulled, you know,
pulled around through the fields and made grain. Those those
(46:04):
weren't the ones that you took back and forth to
the well. Like the war horses were different. So the
warrior men would go to the tops of the mountains,
that's where they found them. They'd go past all the
other wild mustangs and they'd go to the top where
the powerful ones were, the wild ones, and they would
find these these mustangs. Have you heard this, These these
(46:26):
warrior men would find the wildest of the wild and
you'd see him up there on the on the cliff,
muscles just gleaming in the sunlight. You know, it's like,
I want that horse. That's my battle horse. So they
would they would battle for they would fight for a
week to finally get this horse. They would track them
from hilltop to hilltop, and they would finally wear the
(46:47):
horse out where was just so exhausted and the men
were able to overtake it with the horses they were with,
and they would take this horse and break it. One
warrior would break this horse. And then once he broke
that wild horse, that horse trusted that master to the end.
It trusted the master because that was the one that
(47:08):
was finally able to harness all that power. And so
he took that horse, and that horse would go into
battle with him and run against the big line of
barbarians and go right into that line and not stop
until commanded to. Only a horse like that would run
into the death going master, you tell me when to stop.
(47:29):
If you don't tell me to stop, I move forward.
That is what is considered a meek horse. So when
Jesus says blessed are the meek, that's a whole new
meaning for masculinity. Love you guys, see you next episode.
Thanks for joining me on the Grangersmith Podcast. I appreciate
(47:52):
all of you guys. You could help me out by
rating this podcasts on iTunes. If you're on YouTube, subscribe
to this channel. Hit that little button and the notification
spell so that you never miss anytime I upload a video.
If you have a question for me that you would
like me to answer, email Grangersmith Podcast at gmail dot com.
(48:13):
Gig
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