James Fauntleroy

James Fauntleroy is one of the most prolific pop songwriters of the past 15-plus years. Some of his most prized placements include writing songs for Beyoncé, Rihanna, Justin Timberlake and Bruno Mars. He’s also contributed background vocals to songs by Travis Scott, Jay-Z and his longtime friend, the late Nipsey Hustle.

Similar to his music industry idol and mentor Babyface, James Fauntleroy is also an artist in his own right. While his songs have lived on streaming platforms over the past decade, in December James released his official debut album, The Warmest Winter Ever—a Christmas album put through the Fauntleroy filter.

On today’s episode Justin Richmond talks to James Fauntleroy about why he decided to drop his debut album well over a decade into his career. He also explains how hundreds of his songs were stolen and posted online by international hackers. And why he considers both Weird Al Yankovic and John Mayer among some of his biggest musical influences.

You can hear a playlist of some of our favorite James Fauntleroy songs HERE.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. James Fauntleroy is one of the most prolific pop
songwriters of the last fifteen years. Some of his most
prized placements include songs written for Beyonce, Rihanna, Justin, Timberlake,
Bruno mars In, so many others. He's also contributed background

(00:35):
vocals to songs by Travis Scott, Jay Z, and his
longtime friend the late Nimsey Hustle. Similar to his music
industry idol and mentor Babyface, James Fauntleroy is also an
artist in his own right. His own songs, that are
best described as a really innovative take on alt R
and B have lived on streaming platforms for the last decade,

(00:57):
but in December he finally released his first official debut album,
The Warmest Winter Ever, a Christmas album that's put through
the font Leroy filter. On today's episode, I talked to
James Fauntleroy about why he decided to drop his debut
album well over a decade into his career. He also
explains how hundreds of his songs were stolen and posted

(01:17):
online by international hackers, and why he considers both weird
Al Yankovic and John Mayer among some of his biggest
musical influences. This is broken record liner notes to the
digital Age. I'm justin Mitchman. Here's my conversation with James Fauntleroy,
little man.

Speaker 2 (01:38):
I mean, too, what's that?

Speaker 1 (01:40):
I through?

Speaker 2 (01:41):
Yeah, my first album came out today?

Speaker 1 (01:43):
Your album?

Speaker 3 (01:44):
I know, man, come on dog, this is this is it?

Speaker 2 (01:46):
So that's nice? And then my first the last album
for that was not my album, but it got nominated.

Speaker 3 (01:51):
I mean, I'm sure you know.

Speaker 1 (01:52):
Yeah, the EP with with with Terrists, that's right.

Speaker 2 (01:54):
So I'm going to sing one of those songs today.

Speaker 1 (01:58):
You nervous about it?

Speaker 2 (02:00):
No, I that's hard for me to feel nervousness. That's
always been like that. It's hard to feel nervousness and
also excitement, like since a kid, even yeah, I don't know,
there's always been like that. Always just been like fuck it,
getting on stages and talking and doing speeches and know whatever.

Speaker 1 (02:22):
If you don't feel you have nervousness, how do you
deal with Not that you've experienced a lot of it,
but how do you deal with any even small level
of not even failure. I guess it's something not going.

Speaker 2 (02:32):
On experienced exponential amounts of failure. Rejection, disappointment because that's
music business. It sounds like good podcast stuff, but I
think that it helps in that sense, because you have
to be some type of insane to continue to do

(02:52):
anything after you've been told no, I'm seven.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
Hundred for me. I've only recently gotten to the point
of where I was just just fuck it, you know
what I mean. Like people used to say that, like
you know what I mean, like or that Cat Williams
bit back in the day of just you know your
a little fucking well.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
That's probably because a lot of artists have like tough lives.
So my life was so rough before I started doing this,
I didn't even notice it was a thing you could do.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
Man, So before the music industry, you sh your life
was tough. It was crazy.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
It was crazy on multiple levels.

Speaker 1 (03:28):
When you look back, what do you what do you see?

Speaker 2 (03:31):
I see somebody that ended up being really super lucky,
just general lucky, also l the luck of being exposed
to different identities and possibilities. So yesterday I met with
the Department of Corrections, which was funny cause the first
cause I'm doing a pilot program for like juvenile probation

(03:52):
kids and shit, and the lady was like, just so
you know, these kids are dangerous, and I just started
laughing cause I was like, lady, I'm dangerous. I'm not
scared of these kids. You know, I know what their
lives are, like, I know why they cause I had
the same experience. It was like all ds and f's
for the entire time I was in school. Which is

(04:12):
so funny because I'm such I'm so such an intellectual
that it's almost like, you know what I mean, like.

Speaker 1 (04:18):
You damn yourself identify as a nerd right.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Like, oh not damn near it. I mean, I'm wearing
a Pokemon diamond chain. But yeah, I've been thirty modeling
for ten years. I'm always trying to get people to
watch CS fifty that's Harvard's free computer science course on YouTube.
I'm a serious, serious nerd. But I just happened to
be born in you know, a wild environment at a

(04:44):
wild time. It was like the height of well when
I was born was the year Crack was born.

Speaker 1 (04:48):
Yeah, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (04:50):
And so my father, who I don't know he was,
he was military intelligence. When you finish military with that
level job, you can get a good corporate job. So
he got hired at Xerox Corporate where he was taking
money out of the safe to buy cocaine, and people
didn't know that crack turned you into a zombie. So
when he ran out of money, obviously got fired. That

(05:12):
caught him. Can put the money back fast enough and
he started smoking crack. Just take the edge off and
then boom, that's crackhead. So how old are you when
he was strung out of three? So I don't have
any memory of it. When my dad was a crackhead.
My first cousin was a heroin that age. I grew
up in all these extreme like just hood environments, losing

(05:34):
friends and gun violence from childhood to my adulthood because
Nipsey was one of my best friends. So like I'm
I mean, one of my friends died last year. Still,
so it's still like that, even though it's nowhere near
what it was when the murder ate it was like
two thousand people.

Speaker 1 (05:50):
That's what I'm saying. When when things like Nipsey happened, now, man,
it's almost for me it feels like like damn, Holy
pat Like it feels like because it was obviously where
it was much more, it was happening much more often,
but so it feels, I hate to say, like a
throwback almost sometimes still when when.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
Well, you know, you know, if you if you work
on the symptoms and not the cause, then the disease
is not gone. So the cause of the environment, of
low socio economic environment is something that we're not allowed
to actually talk about, our address under the social contract

(06:29):
of human life. So until we can do that, which
is gonna take, you know, probably another couple hundred years,
then the issue is not gonna change.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
Revolution is slow.

Speaker 2 (06:41):
I didn't know we were we were doing the podcast,
so I wouldn't even talk about you won't take that
and we can take it out. No, no, it's cool.

Speaker 3 (06:48):
See let me know, man, all right, so let's start. Hey,
what's up. Well, now we're gonna put it.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
We're gonna put a mask on that.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
What's up, hey man?

Speaker 2 (06:59):
How you doing?

Speaker 1 (07:00):
Hey good? How are you doing? Man? Man? Congratulations on
your debut album.

Speaker 2 (07:08):
Thank you so much. Man, it's a wild thing to
have a debut album almost twenty years.

Speaker 3 (07:13):
Into it's like a young buck.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Yeah man, yeah, bro, it's I think it's time. I
think we're in an era that it's hard to keep
that age stigma. You know, existing in the Internet era,
because it's just obviously not really anymore.

Speaker 1 (07:31):
This project that you put out almost whenever been out
to some degree a couple of different iteration years.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
Yeahah, the majority of.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
It, so first time in twenty fourteen, first batch of
songs released in twenty fourteen, then twenty twenty sixteen. Yeah, yeah,
why did you decide to compile those and drop those? Now?

Speaker 2 (07:50):
It's a gift, you know what I mean? Like, I
haven't identified as an artist for this my entire career
for a bunch of different reasons. But from the very
beginning till now, Like let's say I had a thousand
fans when I started off, but like ten of the
fans were some of the biggest artists on the planet Earth,
and they were finding my music either from me working

(08:12):
in a session somebody or someone telling them about it,
and then going on YouTube, where I had hundreds of
songs uploaded, and especially at that time I uploaded exactly
zero of those songs. We were all hacked, and like
who was putting them up? There were hackers from Germany,
from Paris, from Russia. They would contact me and tell me,

(08:34):
like I remember one time, this is just I think
it was a German, German or French hacker, but he
found my aim, this aim at the time, and he
sent me a picture of like two hundred songs and
was like, these hundred, these are all stolen. He was like,
these hundred I'm posting, but this hundred over here, I
really like these. I'm gonna hold on to these. Just Rockulus.

(08:57):
So shout out to the hackers because they really they
were my first digital marketing team.

Speaker 1 (09:03):
How did these hackers know about you? Like?

Speaker 2 (09:04):
What was basically the hustle was, which a lot of
music business people don't even know that because they're not
computer people. And I've always been a serious, serious computer man.
I knew the hackers were going to be stealing people's
songs before it happened, because I know how, I know
how it works and how they stole it. And so basically,
I'm not going to say who it was with a

(09:25):
prominent music business person sitting out a mass email one time,
and they didn't know how to use blind carving copies,
so they put the email of almost everybody I'd ever
met in the music business was in this one email,
and I remember seeing it and I was like, knowing
what I know about hacking. I was like, this is
this is not good because the wrong person gets their
hands on all these emails. This is the beginning of

(09:45):
my career.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
And I was like, and with someone trying to help
you essentially that he just.

Speaker 2 (09:50):
Was sending out like a blast about an artist. It
was like, yo, I got a new artist. Everybody look
at this. But he put almost everybody's music in the
music business email and this thing. And I was like,
this is just not smart to have everybody's emails in
one place like this. This is the purpose of blind
carving copy. And shortly after that people started receiving these.

(10:11):
It's called phishing, which now is a more known term.
But sure enough, phishing emails started going out of people,
you know, like cloning industry emails and saying, yo, did
you get this file to this? And they still do
that to this day. But basically what they what you're
able to do, especially the further you go back in time,
the less security you had to deal with the emails,

(10:32):
and so they were tricking them into giving you their
user name or not to use the name of their password.
Then when you can go in the email and set
up an attachment filter and have it forwarded to another email.
So basically they were going in all the an RS, executives, producers,
everybody's emails, setting up attachment filters to forward all attachments
to their emails. And then they're incentive for doing this

(10:55):
was they were uploading all these leaks to websites where
like music fans would go, and then they were getting
money from the ads on the website. Wow, so they're
cleaning up.

Speaker 1 (11:04):
I was on those websites. I'm those websites yet, so.

Speaker 3 (11:08):
Think about it.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
When you went to them old websites in the early
two thousands or mid two thousands, they were covered in ads.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
Crazy ass.

Speaker 2 (11:15):
Yeah, so the hackers were cleaning up. But they also
a lot of these guys, which if you think about
it makes sense because a hacker is someone that sits
in front of a computer all day. So they love.

Speaker 1 (11:25):
Music, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (11:27):
So like because they're listening to music while they're doing
their various hack things.

Speaker 3 (11:31):
I love it.

Speaker 1 (11:32):
It's not all it's not it's not only commercial concerns.
So like these under songs, I'm.

Speaker 2 (11:36):
No, they're like and And a friend of mine got
to email that of a hacker that was like, we
want all of your James Funtleroy unsure. Uh, I forgot
who the other people were they were. It was like
he was like, we're coming for your ship.

Speaker 3 (11:52):
We know you got them Usher songs. We coming to
get that ship.

Speaker 2 (11:55):
And so what end up happening is they're putting all
they're putting all these songs on YouTube also so they
can get ad revenue. And now my small fan base,
which includes some of these huge celebrities, are able to
go on YouTube and listen to my songs and other
writers and go on YouTube and listening to a hundred
of my songs, and so that that really had a

(12:16):
big impact on me getting work and having something to
support the word of mouth, but also giving like hundreds
of writers, like just hundreds of songs to study my style.
So that was a part of my style.

Speaker 1 (12:32):
Becoming proliferating around right big with this in the you
know R and B saying, so you were just making
these songs like your own personal songs.

Speaker 2 (12:43):
And I was trying to get placements. So when I
got my first placement or or song on someone's album,
it was on Katherine McPhee's album, and I don't remember
the name of the song. But I was so excited
because you know, like just getting one song place is
a miracle. And the time, yeah, it was popping, I

(13:03):
was I was happy. And the guy, one of the
guys that worked at the publishing company came to me
and he was keeping track of like everybody's songs because
that was part of his job, and he gave me
a spreadsheet and was like, I want you to see this,
and showed me that I had written or started three
hundred songs before my first placement. So like a lot

(13:24):
of those songs and we're the ones that people are
sending to an rs and stuff trying to shop them,
which is so funny because I have almost no I
have like five hundred releases, and I think one came
from shopping of all those five hundred songs, the other
hundreds of songs came from people was just finding my
personal music and becoming fans. And to answer this extremely

(13:47):
long answer to your question why I wanted to do
this now is because over the years, my super small
fan base has grown to a bigger small fan base
of people that are really so supportive and just you know,
like giving me so much energy, especially when I'm the
music I've been releasing over the years is really just

(14:08):
you know, like to satisfy create my creative you know,
desire or whatever, just wanting to be able to release
things that I don't have to think about all the
parameters that come with working with superstars, even though I
also love parameters because they forced you to do something different.
And so why I'm putting the album out now is
I I just can't take it anymore. I want to
let the fans and people that listen to my music

(14:30):
in the community and at large know that I appreciate
all the support by putting some energy into it. And
then also I want to update these niggas because you know,
like so many people study me. And then also it's
because I've already seen a lot of people talking about
like why is James's first album on Christmas? Album? Actually,

(14:51):
today I.

Speaker 3 (14:51):
Saw don't steal My question broll No.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Today I saw a sweet that said James Finloy's debut
album being a Christmas album is such a James Finleroy
thing to do, and I was like missing accomplish. So
it was why is your first album with christ Well
part of it, there's a couple of answers one is like,

(15:14):
because these songs have been out for so long I have,
I've had a lot of time to see what people
like or not, you know, and I get a lot
of responses about this Christmas music throughout the year and
four years, like so I know people like it, and
I know people listen to it not only in Christmas,
but creatively. It's just it's a fun way to stretch

(15:34):
my imagination because like, like, for instance, I did an
album one time that people don't even know. It's seven
songs on the projects and each one of them is
referencing one of the days of creation in the Bible.
And you know, like I did that because I was
studying philosophy at the time, but also because it's just
fun when you give yourself new. You know, almost every

(15:57):
song is about the same like three or four things.
And I told you I wrote three hundred songs before
my first one, so you can imagine that was almost
twenty years ago. How many have written up to this
point and you started running out of shit to say
and do, and like, how do you how do I
make this fun? It's like coming up with something new
to challenge myself and pull something new out of myself

(16:21):
and I'm still I feel like I still haven't had
which is gonna sound crazy. I can feel it right now,
but I feel like I still haven't had the success
trying to get well.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
But it's funny because you're working in two different like
like you could judge your success a couple different ways.
Like obviously, working as a writer producer, you've had just
about as much success as won't can help to have
as a writer producer, right, But then there is this
like thing of you as an artist, and it's like,
you know, now, when I go to look for James
Fauntleroy on Apple Music or Spotify or whatever, it's not

(16:51):
just you featured on whatever, it's like an actual body
of work from you that I could So it's like
this other thing probably keeps things fun for you man
to like keep yourself challenged.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
And yeah, I got to think of something because the
music business is not fun.

Speaker 3 (17:03):
So like what do you mean by that?

Speaker 2 (17:05):
It's terrible? I mean, like, you know, every movie about
the music business is terrible, like The Temptations, that's the
one I always use.

Speaker 3 (17:14):
But you got to stay off of drugs.

Speaker 2 (17:18):
You got to show because it's like we're selling an
intangible product, you know, and so like it's a breeding
ground for common and you know, like people who are
unscrupulous because it's it's it's a great environment to hustle,
you know. So like that's really one of my life

(17:39):
goals is to prove that you can be successful without
being a piece of shit and fucking people over left
and right, and you know, like doing fair business.

Speaker 1 (17:48):
And do you find yourself in the and wanting to
practice less predatory sort of business practices? Do you do
you find that like people try to screw you over
every day?

Speaker 2 (17:59):
Absolutely?

Speaker 1 (18:00):
And do you think people are trying to screw you
over more because necessarily see that as maybe a weakness
and you're not trying to hustle.

Speaker 2 (18:06):
I think they're just on autopilot, just doing whatever they can,
just trying stuff like the raptors in Jurassic Park when
they're like hitting an electric fence. That's these guys are
just like testing every fence they get they come in
contact with. And I wish it would be nice if
people would, you know, like consider that before I got

(18:28):
to this latest person that's trying to take advantage of me,
how many people I had to get through to get
to this point, it would be nice and they would
just but I can't be mad. I you know, I've
been in Vegas. I played Rouette once.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
It was really I was like, I get it, you
get it.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
Yeah, man, you know you win one time and it
just hooks you. So every time somebody, every time I
see anyone do anything crazy or say anything crazy, my
first thought is, though they got away with that shit before,
and that's why they think they could do that.

Speaker 1 (18:55):
So it's really it's the business that's not fun.

Speaker 2 (18:58):
Yeah, the music that can also lose its excitement for
a number of different reasons. But yeah, it's the business
and just human life. Like I study forhilosophy so extensively,
Like I spoke at the Philosophical Research Society. I think
that was this year.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Wow, what'd you speak on? This?

Speaker 2 (19:18):
One was about a famous philosophical text called The Secret
Teachings of All Ages by Manly P. Hall's who founded
the Philosophical Research Society. And my first talk there was
like a decade ago, and that was on NPR. And
I just found the footage because I feel like people

(19:38):
think I'm lying when I say that ship, but I got.

Speaker 3 (19:40):
Evidence now it's on NPR.

Speaker 2 (19:42):
And then it with NPR and now I had college
professors for risks.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
Bro, you did it.

Speaker 3 (19:48):
It's like I did it on Believe.

Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah it Ron Rihanna Sance, You're like pulling up MPR footage.
Chance Bro, Damn well, how'd you go to the philosophy going? Broke?

Speaker 4 (20:02):
Some people?

Speaker 2 (20:02):
When you lose all your money, that's when you really
started looking for God, right in that moment you started
praying and ship.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
It was just after you had some money.

Speaker 4 (20:09):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
Man, you know, I haven't met a person yet that
didn't blow their first million dollars, and most people I
know are have also blown their last million dollars. So
it's just a That's Another part of the predatory environment
that makes it hard to enjoy is like you know,
like in sports, for instance, they have preferred business management

(20:33):
and regulatory boards, and they have all these things that
have come into place to protect the young.

Speaker 1 (20:39):
Athletes, mentorship systems, it's the whole.

Speaker 2 (20:42):
Thing address that because they realize that the quality of
life the players are experiencing has an impact on the product.
Versus in our industry, there's none of that. There's no
regulatory boards, so people can do any deal that you
will sign and with no oversight. There's no even like
industry of what the term business manager implies. So like

(21:03):
the biggest firms that are typical and the biggest entertainers
that are going to like what you would consider like
music firms, what they're getting is a CPA that's an accountant.
So the accountant is like paying your bills typically on
auto pay, calling the credit card company when your car
doesn't work in room or whatever. But what business manager

(21:24):
implies is that they're going to manage your business. So
what you're actually looking for is wealth management. Somebody that's gonna,
you know, come up with a plan for your money
so that you can build a wealth and budgeting and
whatever versus. I mean, my last business manager I had,
you know, I would call and say, hey, can I
afford this? They'd be like, hell, yeah, bye too, you
know what I mean, And that actually that's not the truth.

Speaker 3 (21:46):
And so was that a good thing?

Speaker 2 (21:48):
No, it was a terrible thing.

Speaker 1 (21:50):
Sounds like great great news to me too, I wish.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
Yeah, because that's not that's not real, you know what
I mean. Because basically what they're doing is banking on
the fact that you'll just always have income, and that's
not how we get we we rarely get paid, especially
if you're a songwriter. That's a whole other conversation because
producers at least get fees, and a songwriter as big
as I am, I get fees sometimes, but that's not

(22:16):
what we're all expecting that I'm not going to get
a fee, you know what I mean. And so for
a songwriter it's it's even harder because like, you just
don't have any way to get paid except for your
publishing advance, which is based on your ability to have
hit songs, which is something you also can't control.

Speaker 1 (22:35):
Right after a quick break, will be back with more
of an interview with James Fontleroy. We're back with more
from James font Leroy. Your name has always been a
gold standard in terms of so I know you're saying
you're not Babe Ruth, you can't call hits, and it's true,
but you've had an overwhelming amount of great songs written

(22:58):
with great artists over you know, now damn near twenty years.
How have you been able to retain that level of creativity?

Speaker 2 (23:08):
And well, a hit song is that's something you buy,
you know what I mean? Like, a hit song is
not a sound it's an element of a marketing campaign
that costs a certain amount of money. So when people
are when I hear like an amateur, like I got
my new single coming out, I'm like, no, you don't
have any money. You're putting a song out. That's what
that's called a single, or somebody that's a budget behind.

(23:32):
That's that's what a single is.

Speaker 3 (23:34):
And so.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
That's why I'm like, I can't, I can't call it
hit because that depends on you know, like what what
people respond to, but more importantly, how much money people
are spending on it. Now, what I can say is
that I have really good tastes. And why my taste,
why I have so much confidence confidence in my taste
is because although some of it is inherent or whatever,

(23:59):
but for the most part, it's it's not about that.
It's we have evidence of what works. We have Stevie Wonder,
we have Prince, we have Jimmy jam and Terry Lewis,
we got Babyface, we got Dying Warren, we got all
these people, and it's really our job as modern creators
to try to comprehend not how to do what they did,
but what worked. You know, I had an argument with

(24:22):
them he's a really big executive now. At the time
he was a big executive. I had an argument with
this guy one time because he was telling me that
my songs were too complex, which she was right, but
he was like it was crazy too, because he was
asking me to work for this artist and I was
like no, And then he was like, come on, work
with the artist, and I was like no. So then
he said he wanted to have a meeting with me.

(24:43):
Then he calls me in the meeting, and the whole
meeting is him telling me why my songs won't be
hit songs. And so this is the early part of
my career. So I'm sitting here. Also, at the time,
my manager was there, and my poor manager didn't know
what my personality was like because growing up in the
environment I grew up and I knew, like, you know,
like in these kind of situations, yeah, unless they know

(25:06):
the better he does. So I'm just like he imagine
me for like almost two years, and he didn't know that.
I was like I am. So I'm sitting here listening
to this guy who just I told no twice, tell
me why my songs will never be hits, And I'm like,
I feel the pressure rising up that I'm about to
let this guy have it, and I'm like, oh no,

(25:27):
my manager, this is gonna happen. And so even though
I haven't, I've never yelled at anyone in the music business.
But and I have theories on why people feel like
I'm yelling at them when I'm talking calmly, because I
sounded just like this when I'm talking to this guy.
But after I let him say all this ridiculous shit,
I was like, man, with all due respect, like if
you take the number one songs from any period, like

(25:50):
the last year, the last ten years, last thirty years,
they're different tempos, different topics, different genres, different looking people.
None of those factors are the thing and something else
that they have in common that I know that you
don't know. And so for you to sit here and
tell me that I don't know how to write his song,
it's absolutely ridiculous. Nobody knows, you know. But of the

(26:10):
two of.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
Us, yeah, you know more than.

Speaker 2 (26:16):
He was like, you're absolutely right. I hope he here's
the shit and not just the truth. So like how
I have there's two things I'm thinking about. I'm measuring
the quality of my music and the quality of the
writing and melodies and all this stuff against these greats
that I listed. So I'm like, I'm not looking at
what people right now are doing. I'm looking at the

(26:37):
people that already proved to us. Oh, because this is
another thing I tell people all the time. Every generation
thinks their music is the best, right man, When I
was young, it was so good. I think that too now,
even though I know what I'm about to tell you
right now.

Speaker 3 (26:49):
Oh.

Speaker 2 (26:49):
And also, people are always like, you got to make
music simple because everybody's stupid, right, And so I tell
people all the time, one, people have always been stupid,
day one, the first human to the last is going
to be an abundance of idiots. So when Stevie Wonder
was putting out music, people were just dumb as they
were now. And then further, when I think about all

(27:13):
these these different people that I'm talking about the other
element of what makes people like songs, It's like, yes,
I'm comparing myself quality wise to all these greats. But
what I'm really trying to do with the song is
turn a consumer into a believer, you know what I mean.
Like that's yeah, Like that's something that connects you with

(27:36):
the person because I'm always telling people, which is just
funny because I have I've seen I just saw an
interview with somebody saying the opposite of what I'm about
to say. But art is it's it's already cathartic, you
know what I mean. When you're when you make a
piece of art, you're you're using your experience to make
it right everything, but the value of it, the part

(27:58):
that people are paying you money for, is not about
your catharist It has nothing to do with you. So
like my my secret or my my, what I'm thinking
about is, you know, there's the quality part I told
you about, but my intent is to make something that
connects the listener because of the level of service this
song is providing in their lives. And so you know,

(28:20):
there's different venues. There's barbecues, there's the car, there's the club.
A great example. I always tell people because for whatever reason,
people think I only listen to classical music and shit,
because whenever I tell people I listen, I listen. I've
listened to I started listening to classical, right, I do
listen to classical music, but I love all kinds of stuff.
So I always tell people a great example of a

(28:41):
song that is of extreme like levels of use is
back that ass up, right, Oh my god, because well
we'll use that song till the end of time. Tell me, yeah,
like Mariah Carey the Christmas song, back that ass up.
You know, there's just like a couple of songs that
we consider classics. Oh yeah, I just reader. My other
point was that people always think music is so good

(29:03):
from their era, But the fact is we stopped playing
the ship that's not of use, playing the things that
aren't good anymore.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
That's real, man. So there's a lot of the because
that's the thing.

Speaker 3 (29:15):
They'll be.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
They'll be certain sounds that I like when I'm listening
to them at the time, I get real tired of
real fast, and I can't listen to any of it.
Ten years later, fifteen years later, when all like the
weakest versions of that style have kind of gone away
and you only have the cream has risen, and it's like, oh, wait,
why did I love this shit?

Speaker 3 (29:35):
Actually? Why did I?

Speaker 1 (29:35):
Why did I not listen to it? It's like, oh, because.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
That's that's how it works, the ones that are impactful,
and and also that's good, that's great. You said it
like that because like it's also the ones that really
capture the sound the best. Yes, you know, like from
the Ratchet era, we have rack City and Loyal. Those
two songs are gonna be the representatives of that genre

(29:59):
in twenty years, even though there is and there's a
couple more.

Speaker 1 (30:03):
It was great time, I got to be honest, I
don't know.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
It was great. So yeah, there's like probably five, six, seven,
maybe ten of them songs. It was a thousand that
came out, the same thing for the nw Jack sound.

Speaker 1 (30:14):
Same thing for New Jack was tough. Like the growing
up with new Jack was it was just everywhere and
it kind of got old for me at the time.
But going back, you're like, yo, I don't know, man.

Speaker 2 (30:25):
Certain ones that we're always gonna play them. And so
that's my goal is like to make something like that,
something that is so useful.

Speaker 1 (30:36):
You have a really unique sound though.

Speaker 2 (30:37):
Man, I know, man, well it was unique in the beginning.

Speaker 1 (30:42):
Yeah, but I feel like it still is. Like I
feel like listening even to this record, like it's clear
like people make music more like you now, but there's
still something in you doing it and in your songs
and then you performing them that make them sound original still,
you know, and unique. But I maybe we can talk
about your songwriting. Yeah, your structure is come on very

(31:04):
different than most songwriter structure. Were you trying to play
with form or was it just like that's just how
you heard it.

Speaker 2 (31:13):
No, it's very intentional. When I started, you know, there
were writers I really admired that. I was trying my
best to write songs like just like everybody else. Well
my biggest right at the time I actually got signed
the Underdogs who I actually ended up getting signed to
where they were kind of like redefining R and B

(31:33):
at that time. So I was really like studying their
music hard and it was unbelievable. I couldn't copy because
I didn't know how you know what I mean. But
it was certain little things that I was like, I
like this, I like that. But then I ended up
going there and being trained in that style so much
so that it was like, and don't do it any

(31:53):
other way either. So that was another like final development.
But when I got there, people were telling me, even
though Brandy's one of the best singers ever and really
foundational to my sound and everything. Also, even like the
people she wrote with, I consider them like Lashawn Daniels,
for instance. I consider them to be huge influences on

(32:15):
my writing. But being the kind of person I am,
I don't want to hear that shit all day. I
don't want to hear people telling me I sound like
Brandy all the time because I'm like, what do you?

Speaker 3 (32:23):
What are you?

Speaker 2 (32:23):
What are you saying?

Speaker 1 (32:24):
You know?

Speaker 2 (32:25):
So I really sat up there for like, and I'm
still doing it today, Like I'm really like, I was like,
I want to I want my own sound. It would
never not have Brandy in it, you know. Like I
think even while I was consciously developing my sound, that's
when I discover Imaging Heap and you know, like the

(32:47):
eighties in general are big, you know. I think that
was when when humanity really started nailing down what pop
music really could be. And so that's a big part
of her style. I can hear too. But when I
heard Imaging Heap, it was like, Okay, this is what
I'm trying to do, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (33:06):
Sense because you got that real the soul thiss of
a Brandy with those weird sounds that you might hear,
and the productions are big, like like like the best
because I.

Speaker 2 (33:16):
Am from the hood too, you know what I'm saying.
But also that's another funny thing about the Hood experience
is like gangsters love music. Man, Like I was getting
a great you know, I was learning a lot about me.
I think the first person that really, my mom was
the first person to try to convince me that Prince
was somebody actually get into. But it was really like
a bunch of thugs. I was riding around blasting prints

(33:37):
out of lowriders that I was like, let me check this.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
Outber my dad trying to put me on the DJ
quick by telling me of the best Prince of hip hop.

Speaker 3 (33:45):
He's just like Prince. It was right.

Speaker 2 (33:47):
He was like, Rhythmalism is one of the best albums
I ever heard of my whole entire life, hands down,
including every type of music I've ever heard. That's like
top five albums for me.

Speaker 1 (33:59):
It's amazing stuff.

Speaker 3 (34:00):
Man.

Speaker 2 (34:01):
I really talk about Dave Hollister as an influence with
that was a big influence. And he's doing like soul
gospel kind of singing, and I was really getting into that.
Michael Franks is a big influence on you know. The
least people I come in contact are familiar with Michael Franks.
But I also know some ghetto people that I'm not

(34:21):
the only one in the hood, mister Franks that listens
to your music. But you know, I just had all
these different influences. And basically there's two things one. Singing
and writing is night and day skills. They don't go together.
Most of the big writers that have ever lived were
not great singers. Most of the great singers I know about,

(34:42):
we're not great writers. So those are two different things
I had to study, you know, Like my story of
my singing style is a different path.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
But you wanted to have both, You wanted to have
singing and songwriter.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Yeah, I have a choice. You know, you can't choose
it if you can sing or not, you know what I mean.
So I just happened to be at one with it.
But I love books, and I'm a nerd, so I'm
into words and tone and writing, and like I was
already an avid reader, you know what I mean. So
I was I already was interested in the process of writing,

(35:14):
like you know, like literary writing. But as far as songwriting,
before I started really writing songs, my favorite writer was
probably where it now. Every song I wrote before, including
my first song, I wrote period. My first song was
a joke because like, you know, that's all, that's what
writing was to me. I didn't know it was a job.
So the only things I ever wrote were like parodies

(35:36):
like the Hot Boys. I wrote a song called hot
Breath when I was and uh in high school like that.
It was just a hot breath, the hot Breath. I
remember like writing the verses out and everything because I
love where it. Now.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
We're gonna pause for another quick break and then we'll
be back with more from James font Leroy. We're back
with the rest of my conversation with James font Leroy.
When did songwriting become a thing you knew that you
could do, like as a career, Like, when did that
become like I want to do this?

Speaker 2 (36:13):
Well, it was when I found out you could get paid,
you know what. I'm seen somebody pull up in a
nice car with a nice outfit on a nice this
and that, and I was like, what's up, what's going
on over here? And so that's when I found out
because I was at a publisher's I was at Universal's
publishing studio. They had a recording studio, and I had
actually been there before singing a demo for somebody right

(36:34):
before I actually had my first like writing session there,
and I just had no idea about what publishing was,
the pubishing deals and admin and all this stuff. So
when I found out what it was, I got on
the internet and I researched it so thoroughly that when
I got my first terrible deal, I told my lawyer.
I was like, Yo, this is bad right, and he

(36:54):
was like, I don't know the hell you think you are.
You need to sign that shit. So I actually got
to make a decision on the spot. I was like,
do I want to take this bad deal and get
the opportunities, which I don't suggest other people do that,
but they ended up working out for me because it
was worth it.

Speaker 1 (37:11):
Yeah, it was worth just getting your foot in the door.

Speaker 2 (37:13):
Absolutely, it doesn't always work like that. I've seen the
majority of people in those situations. They end up so
dejected that they they can't function after they realized because
everybody has this moment where you realize you signed something
that wasn't in your best interest. And I remember one
time talking to my publisher about it, even though knew

(37:34):
the deal was fucked up when I got it, But
I remember talking to my publisher about it, and I
was like, why did you think? I've said this to
several people in the music business. I said, why do
you think this is? Okay?

Speaker 1 (37:45):
That's a great question, you.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
Know what I mean. And the typical answer is, this
is how it happened to me. This is how it's done,
which is actually what made me want to start the
school and get into education and all this other stuff
I got going on. But my publisher was like, well,
we didn't know you, and I was like what, And
so I always since then, I've been like two things. One,

(38:08):
if you do better business and it turns out bad,
then you know at least you did your best. If
you do good business and it turns out well, then
you just exponentially multiply what you can do with that person.

Speaker 3 (38:19):
And if you just.

Speaker 2 (38:20):
Want to be a criminal, you know, no judgment, but
rob them in the end, not in the beginning. Why
are you so dumb if you really think this person's
worth robbing, why would you steal them their money when
they have one hundred and fifty thousand versus when they
have fifteen million. Ye're crazy? H So that that's why

(38:42):
all your criminals out there, that's a free one.

Speaker 1 (38:45):
Do you think the music industry is fixable?

Speaker 2 (38:47):
No, I don't. I don't think it's fixable at all.
I think it's just business, you know what I mean,
Like the music part is it's it's not even important.
And that's evident in the fact that we haven't had
any new superstars really for the last decade, and it's
solely because that's not in the best interests of the machine.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
How do you feel, I mean, I'll say, as a
just as a person who's a fan of music, the
fact that there's have been no true superstars built over
the last built or put out or come out or
come about over the last decade, it's a drag man.

Speaker 2 (39:24):
It is man And basically it's just it just takes
time because the Internet has been rearranging everything since it
popped off. Because basically, right now, like you know, you
have Internet fame, which doesn't translate into international market and
right now, the label systems have territory partners that they
can make an act a global priority, meaning like you know,

(39:49):
their partners in different territories will open up budgets to
market that person in different territories, which then creates a
global superstar. Yeah, and so I think that the way
the Internet is closing all these bridges and gaps, you're
going to start having people who are recreating the environment
without the need of that system. And so the labels

(40:11):
are aware and they figured out a lot of really
smart Like I'm not angry at the labels, like I
always hear my collaborators, especially all of us, because all
of us have much money, we have left, We're making
millions of dollars, you know what I mean, So I
don't have emotions about it.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
I just also feel like music's better when there's a
strong label system.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
But it's alway but like, oh yeah, they don't feel
any sense of responsibility to the art, which I do.
So that's a big part of everything I'm doing is
like I feel because all the people that came before
me had such an impact on me that I could
go from zero to traveling the world and having money
and doing all this, I'm like, who's going to do
that for the next people? So that's why I'm like

(40:53):
really working hard to fill in that gap and really
trying to support and work with other people that feel
like that, which is almost every collaborator I had that
people name when they name who I worked with. It's
a bunch of people who are also really concerned with
preserving the art, you know, like Bruno is one of
the best examples, Like every superstar though, like all the

(41:15):
people that are on my list of people that I
worked with, one thing I noticed they all have in
common is they're all like music historians, every single one
of them.

Speaker 1 (41:25):
Justin Timberlake, he's one of them, absolutely, Beyonce, Beyonce.

Speaker 2 (41:31):
Like just expert. They could all teach Ivy League classes
on music history, all of them.

Speaker 1 (41:39):
What does that bring to writing sessions or recording sessions?

Speaker 2 (41:43):
Wisdom? You know, like knowing what works and knowing the
rules enough to recreate them or break them or bend
them or whatever. And you just have to do that.
If you want to make something new, you have to
understand what came before it. Yeah, that's not a super
popular thing on the planet Earth, but the people that

(42:06):
know that have advantage.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Yeah, it's starting to change. It feels like this hip
hop fiftieth thing has been cool. It's been great to
see people embrace artists that I think before we're just
kind of aligned as like it's like that's old This
old school's wax it's you know, it's like, but it
feels like there's a lot of good will going towards
our legends these days, and so.

Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah, I see that too, But that's just really that's
that's the mainstream and public perception. But the truth is,
you know, like whoever the biggest young rapper, like a
TikTok guy or whoever you want to name, they don't
have as successful a global touring career as the Wu
Tang clan, you know what I mean. So even when

(42:49):
we were all not looking the world, because even the world,
we all have this tendency to look through the lens
of America. But the fact is that you're not going
to find too many of these TikTok guys doing global
dates versus these old guys they've been out here getting
this money. Yeah, I think he's good that the Internet

(43:11):
is peeling away all sorts of machines and industry's ability
to tell you that something is one way when it's
really nothing.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
And I also think too, like to an earlier point,
you're twenty years in just about releasing your debut album,
there really is no timeline anymore. Like the fact, like
if we dropped a really good album this year, people
would bang it just as hard as right as that.
It's by nods these last right like some of the

(43:41):
best music NAS has ever done. It sounds as relevant
as ever. People loved it as much as anything new
that came out, and he.

Speaker 2 (43:48):
Boy was nominated for Partucer the year off.

Speaker 1 (43:50):
Of that deserved. Hell, yeah, deserved.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
He should get it every year. That's my boy. He's
on fire.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
I talked to him a few months ago just because
I was so I was so pumped on those NOS records.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
I met him to day zero. I met him when
I was trying to get the publishing did with the Underdogs.
That's when we met, so I know him from my
whole entire.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Was he also trying to get a deal there?

Speaker 3 (44:10):
That's a funny story.

Speaker 2 (44:11):
Actually, I don't know if he talks about the fact
that it used to be hit boys. Did he tell
you that, Yeah, it used to be two of them. No, Ill,
it used to be two hit boys and one of
them left to what we thought was signing to deal
with the Underdogs, which ended up to be actually not
the case.

Speaker 1 (44:30):
But yeah, we did talk about his his initial bad
We all.

Speaker 2 (44:34):
Were trying to everybody. Basically, it was like, it was
in this building that now Diane Warren owns that Babyface
used to own that used to be Solar even Dick
Griffy right, yep, it's on Hollywood and Kowana Wow. And
so the underdogs had the third floor because they have
a relationship Babyface with subt. I shout out to Babyface,

(44:55):
it's one of the greats. Why I consider him the top.
I consider me the top if I'm being totally honest.

Speaker 3 (45:02):
But if I'm taking myself, I think you need twenty
more years.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
Man.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
I love you know.

Speaker 2 (45:08):
I talked to about this. I said, yo, man, I
can never be Babyface, Like, what's how can I even
do it? And he was like, he said, really, how
you need to think about it is that because I've
been doing this so long, there's things that I've done
that you just can't do. He was like, you can't
work with Whitney Houston, you know what I mean. So
you can't We can't match each other on that in

(45:29):
that regard. But he was like, the same thing will
be true for you one day.

Speaker 1 (45:33):
Twenty years though. Beyonce and Rihanna, they're gonna be the
way we think of Whitney now which is like.

Speaker 2 (45:37):
You know what I mean, Like, so you know I'm
Babyface now Babyface. Yeah, I'm gonna let you hold on
to the name because you earned it.

Speaker 1 (45:44):
Did you always love his music?

Speaker 2 (45:46):
Absolutely as an artist before I knew he was writing
everything under the sun. Who was the first person I
heard about doing a catalog sales? So that's how you
even learned that that existed. And that was probably sixteen
seventeen years ago, and he recouped it, which is just
that's not even a thing today. So you know, statistically
he's we can't argue if he's as far as uh writing,

(46:12):
he's my number one.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
I know, as far as my taste, he's got to
be one of the great songwriters of all time.

Speaker 2 (46:16):
Man, Yeah, I think he's number one, especially just from
writing standpoint. But then, like you know, my top guys
are baby Face. It's me, It's me five times, but
it's baby Face. What's six to ten, it's baby Face,
Stevie Wonder, John Mayor. I feel like we're not taking John.

Speaker 1 (46:39):
Way to say I'm gonna keep keep going, Wenna, we
can go back.

Speaker 2 (46:43):
So baby Face, Stevie Wonder, John Mayor, Prince And then
I'll say Diane Warren.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
All right, I love John Mayer. We go go back
to that? Is that in order? No, okay, that's good.

Speaker 4 (46:56):
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (46:56):
I mean Stevie, I love baby Face, but it's hard
to put.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
Well, Stevie Wonder got a bunch of songs about singing ship.
So who could be who can compete with that? How
we're gonna beat that one? You just you're not You're
not going to get to that level of creativity.

Speaker 1 (47:10):
What is it about John Mayer that you feel like?
Put the other the other four? I mean, I love
but I'm.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
Telling you John Mayer is on the same level. He's
one of the best writers ever on earth, to ever live, period,
and he's also an amazing singer and arranger and musician.
He's like unbelievable. I would say, you think you got a.

Speaker 1 (47:29):
Song as good as anything on the Waiting to Excel soundtrack?

Speaker 2 (47:32):
I think it's more than one. Yeah, yeah, like Stop
this Train?

Speaker 1 (47:36):
You know that song Stop the Trains Continuum?

Speaker 2 (47:39):
Yeah? I don't. I don't know what what song we
could confidently say is better than that song? You would
have to be as good as that song. I'm just
telling you, as one of the greatest writers of all.

Speaker 1 (47:48):
Time as one, two, five, Yeah, that song, it's that's
just that's it's a good song.

Speaker 2 (47:56):
It's a great song. It's it's a song that captures
the human condition in a way that's almost impossible to
do in a digestible format. It's relatable, it's introspective, it's
musically incredible, it's proof that he's one of the greatest
writers of all times.

Speaker 1 (48:16):
It's definitely one of the great albums.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
That whole album, I mean, his first album, What Come.

Speaker 1 (48:22):
On Continuum has got to be his top.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Contenue is definitely best album. But his first album, he
was letting us know right there. He's still on every song.
The first one I heard was the first single that
was by these in Wonderland was the second one, if
I'm not mistaken, because the first one was I Want
to Run through the halls of my high school. So
that one I was like, that got and this is
before I was even writing, and that got my attention,

(48:45):
like what's going on here? But then when I heard
your Body's Wonderland, I was like, so, you know what,
I want to add him to my list of influences
because I really think about how he writes as like
a great example of all these things I'm talking about,
as far as like adhering to the examples that all
these grades have set before us and then doing it
his own way. I think he's up there.

Speaker 1 (49:07):
What about you as a guitar player, Oh.

Speaker 2 (49:09):
I suck, dude, Like I just loved the guitar. I'm
so in love with the guitar, so I've been playing
it now for a long time. But I'll never forgive man.
I did this show because when I first I taught
myself the guitar as an adult, and I just had
it in the car with me and the band with
me everywhere. I'm just strumming it and fucking with it.
And then I wrote this project called String Theory because
I'm a nerd, and I performed it at this this

(49:33):
venue called No Name that was on Fairfax back in
the day. And I don't even know if Robert Cavallo
remembers this. This is my I love him to death,
like I just talked to I went to his birthday
last year and I told him the Dookie Green Day
poster is the only music poster I ever had on
my wall in my life.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
Wow.

Speaker 2 (49:52):
Yeah, it's the only music poster I ever had. I
was a big fan of Green Day and a bunch
of things at that time. But I don't even know
if he knows this, because I met him several times he.

Speaker 1 (50:01):
Produced that record.

Speaker 2 (50:02):
Yeah, I went to his house when I first started
writing with Justin Lake and we had a funny exchange there.
But he walked up to me at the show. I
don't even know if your members of this, but after
I perform my this is my first time performing live
playing the guitar, and he walks up to me. He's like,
you don't know who I am, but I'm a pretty
successful rock producer and I can tell you don't know

(50:24):
how to play the guitar. And I was like, you know,
oh shit, I'm caught. And he was like, and I
really wanna tell you that you're a genius. He was like,
I can tell you don't know what you're doing, but
the fact that you figured this out ay and and
how creative the arrangements are and how you're just doing
all this stuff, he was like, you're a genius. This

(50:44):
is insane, like that you just did that and you
don't even know how to play the guitar. And so
That's kind of how I feel about it. It's really like,
can't really play anything, But I just am lucky to
have the ability to comprehend why I love what I
love about music. And then even though I can't tell
you the numbers of the root, Nope, so their progression

(51:06):
or none of these other really important vitals that you
need to casef a musician. But I know how it's
supposed to sound, and I'm creative.

Speaker 1 (51:15):
Well, I don't even know if it's how it was
supposed to Like you play something, I don't even know
if that's how it's supposed to sound. It just sounds
like there's stuffing on you on the record you just
put out today, like Magic, where I'm like, what is that?

Speaker 4 (51:25):
Like?

Speaker 3 (51:25):
What is like? You know, it's like working Man was
listening to it.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
We were picking songs for the show. I just didn't
I can tell. They were like, what's going on?

Speaker 1 (51:34):
But it's crazy, Like but it's like it makes no sense,
but it's absolutely beautiful and somehow it fits into the
song and you're like, I don't know how he made
Like I don't know how you made that song out
of that riff or how you fit that riff into
that song well out which wherever way it went, it's incredible.

Speaker 2 (51:50):
Thank you. It's observing. Man. I worked with John Mayer
a bunch of times, so I was great. I was
already already felt how I felt before I even met him,
but then I was able to see him work too,
so that showed me some things about how to what
to do with the guitar. And then also this producer
named Mike Elizondo and Mike Alzando I've worked with so

(52:11):
many times over the years. But even though his biggest
hit is in the Club probably, but he's like an
incredible rock producer. Like he's so so like serious about
all the genres he does. He can do anything. But
like I worked with him in a bunch of sessions
that were like rock leaning, you know, like it was
pop rock or like just rock stuff. So I got
to watch him making you know, rock music the way

(52:34):
he imagines it, and it was just certain things I
learned from watching both of those guys that I was like, Okay,
so I don't need to really be good, I just
need to know how to do it, and you know,
like do what I'm trying to do with with everything
I've learned in singing and writing and production because I've
really been producing longer than both of those other things.
Like people don't know that, but I know how to

(52:57):
just get it to feel the way I wanted to feel.
And then once I get this feeling, then now I'm like, Okay,
now back to what I was saying earlier. Now this
song is abuse, this is creating the feeling.

Speaker 1 (53:08):
And that's why I was saying that, like, yeah, I know,
like there's a lot of people have copied your style,
but it's something that hits very different when you're doing
it or when it's you're thinking there's an emotion in it.
That's just that doesn't translate to someone who's trying to
just do a song that sounded like one of yours
is a really like a it's like something that was
captured in the room. It's like documenting something in the room.

(53:29):
I don't know if that's necessarily. There's a few.

Speaker 2 (53:31):
Things that the people that study me, even though I'm
I'll tell you, you know what I mean. It's not
a secret, but it's just a few things that one
thing is it's my style. While complex, there's some entry
points that are just not hard. You know what I
mean because like that it's supposed to be something that
people can can enjoy. It's not supposed to be like

(53:52):
you know, just like music for the sake of for
other musicians, like for people been Also there's just things
that they everybody hasn't picked up on yet, you know,
Like there's dynamic stuff, which I got this from. I
heard prince An shot it. Shot is a huge influence.
Thiss is shot it tattooed on my hand. Yeah, shade
as Mary, It's amazing, So that's another huge influence. But

(54:16):
like Shota in print and like kind of singing a
and also a lot of singers can't even do this
to emulate it, but like singing a low octave and
a high octave that creates a certain kind of feeling
that I noticed people haven't picked up on that yet
thinking of the singer as a character, you know. Like
I noticed this on the song Village Ghetto Land by

(54:37):
Stevie Wondering, which we all now know he loves classical
music and that's why he was doing all these different
classical leaning things. But when I heard that song, he's
singing with like a slight British accent on the song
and So what that taught me was that, you know,
because that why I instantly knew why he did it.
I'm like, it's classical music. It's already it's interesting because

(55:01):
you're talking about the life, the ghetto life experience with
the backdrop of classical So that's a lesson right there,
because that's interesting. So that's a lesson that everybody needs
to understand. And then the other thing is that he
put himself into a character. He changed how he's pronouncing
the words, his robrato, all these other things. So I'm like,

(55:25):
you can do that on every song. Every song, Every
every song has a different intent, and so like yeah, yeah,
so like you know, I literally change how I sing,
how I pronounce words, how if I'm singing louder, I change,
like in the arrangement. Different harmonies might have different characters,

(55:46):
but for sure, when I'm doing the performance, I'm acting,
you know what I mean, Like you're you're acting. I
think of the whole thing in terms of movies, the
whole and everything about my music is is I'm thinking
about cinematic dynamics, special effects, building it up, conflict. I

(56:06):
always used to Hangover as an example of what I'm
thinking when I'm writing, like in The Hangover, what a
lot of people do in their writing, like if we're
thinking about that scene and the Hangover the next day
is they're like they'll have a song called smoking chair
with a chicken on it, right, and it'll be like,
there's a chair with smoking a chicken and right. And
what the Hangover is doing is when everybody wakes up,

(56:29):
the camera pants around the room and you just see
the aftermath of what happened. And then for the rest
of the movie you're finding everybody's trying to figure out
what happened. And so in a song, while you can't,
that's a type of song. There's instruction songs like back
that ass up pretty clear.

Speaker 1 (56:45):
What you need to do.

Speaker 2 (56:46):
But then when you're making a cinemat when you're creating
a scene, it's better to describe the scene to get
the point across. So like, as far as the performance
is concerned, that's part of it. That's like part of
the scene is I'm describing the scene to you because
you can't see it most you know, unless there's a video.
And then I'm acting it out in as particular character,

(57:08):
so you feel emotion. It's supposed to invoke.

Speaker 1 (57:12):
Wow, it's incredible, And that's a great point about village Ghettoland.
I never the song would be a lot less interesting
to be. I mean, it'll be a good song, but
to be way less interesting if you didn't perform it
that way. Yeah, it's an incredible lesson to take from that.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
It's something that the listener doesn't need to know, you
know what I mean. It's it's something that is for
It's a detail that's for the person that wants to
learn how to communicate at the highest level with their music.
And so I used that on almost every single song.
There's a song on this album it's Slay.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
On a Slay song.

Speaker 2 (57:46):
On the second verse of that song, and I actually
I wrote the first half of that song in a
songwriting class at my school. What Yeah, some of my
students watching me write the first half of it.

Speaker 3 (57:56):
I was trying to teach them, Yeah, while I.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
Wrote that song, and then the second verse, since I'm
already like in education mode when I'm thinking about the song,
I literally sang the first and second line in two
different characters. First line, how I'm singing it is different,
how I'm pronouncing the words is different. You know, It's like,
you know, a lot more not articulate, but like it's
it's more sophisticated. The first character and then the second one,

(58:21):
I literally have like a Southern not as real Southern accent,
but it's like, you know, a lot more draw yeah,
like just a different person. But you know.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
It's the second line, on the second line of the
second I'm listen for that again. I love that song.
I didn't even pick up on that.

Speaker 2 (58:37):
I can play it right now.

Speaker 4 (58:38):
Okay, yeah, so subtle but different guys.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Wow, same voice, but the first one, I'm articulating the words.
I'm singing softly. It's you know, it's a complicated yeah, right,
And in the second line, I'm just a head back
to together.

Speaker 1 (59:10):
Wow. Man, that's a great lesson.

Speaker 2 (59:12):
Thanks. The same thing I talked about in the beginning,
about like when I first started and I was really
focused on creating my own style. I'm still doing that.
I'm still you know, like changing every song is a
new opportunity for me to see what can I do,
What did I do before that I liked, what did
I try that didn't work? And then what can I

(59:34):
add in now that I haven't done before? So I'm
still trying to figure it out.

Speaker 1 (59:39):
Man. Well, thanks for kicking it, man, appreciate it. The
beautiful record.

Speaker 3 (59:44):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
I'm glad it's like compiled finally into one like listenable,
digestible thing.

Speaker 2 (59:51):
Yeah, if you don't have to switch when you're running
or whatever. That's what I hear all the time. It
was like, I'm tired of I'm on a treadmill. I'm
going between sounds. I can't relate to that. I'm not
on treadmill, but I got you, you know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Thanks to James fontler Way for chatting about his songwriting career,
your and his debut album, The Warmest Winter Ever. You
can hear it along with our other favorite James Fauntleroy
Penk songs on a playlist at broken record podcast dot com.
Subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash
broken Record Podcast, where you can find all of our
new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record.

(01:00:29):
Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with
marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer
is Ben Tolliday. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.
If you love this show and others from Pushkin consider
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(01:00:51):
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Our theme Music's back, any beats. I'm justin Richmond.