March 2, 2024 • 39 mins
For the last installment of our Thursday Black History Month drops, how could we not revisit our episode with the incomparable Sonny Rollins? Listening to Sonny is like history coming right off the page. He’s living, breathing black history and one of the greatest tenor players of all time.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. Hey everyone, Today we're continuing our celebration of Black
Music Month with one of my all time favorites, jazz legend,
Sonny Rollins. Rollins is dubbed the Saxophone Colossus. He's an
American tenor and composer who was widely regarded as one
(00:37):
of the most influential jazz musicians ever, with several awards
under his belt, a Grammy Award for Lifetime Achievement in
the National Medal of Arts to name a few. Some
even venture to call him the greatest living improviser. Sadly, now,
at ninety one years old, Rollins no longer plays as
a result of pulmonary fibrosis, but he is able to
(00:59):
look back at an eight decade career that took him
all the way from the beginnings of bebop to playing
with the Rolling Stones and all over the world. On
today's episode, I spoke to Sonny Rollins by phone about
one of his first big gigs at eighteen way back
in nineteen forty nine, playing alongside other jazz icons like
Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. He also explains why he
(01:21):
no longer actively listens to music, and for the first
time ever, how Charlie Parker is the reason he kicked drugs.
This is broken record Liner notes to the digital age.
I'm justin Mitchman. Here's my phone conversation with the great
Sonny Rollins. I want to talk about early in your career.
(01:43):
You were eighteen years old in nineteen forty nine. That
was your first professional date and the first that I
can figure was with Babs Gonzales on Saint Louis Blues.
That does that seem true?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I know that I had began recording in I've laid foties,
so I would imagine that it might be true. I
can't verify exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Do you remember Babs Gonzales pretty well?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Oh? Sure? Very dish is like a character you. Yeah,
I remember Mads very well. Babs. I liked my playing
a lot, and I used to make some of these
gigs that dads Gonzales had pole up a lot of
(02:33):
resists in the car and we go down to Philly,
or we go up to Boston or president an immediate area,
and hey, so I got a chance to play with
some of my idols. I got a chance to play
with Faction of Varrow.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
I want to bring that up the same year, when
you're still eighteen, you got to play on some pretty
incredible un power records, well, Pouncing with Bud, fifty second
Street Theme, Dance of the Infidels, I mean, just real,
real classics, and you're playing on there with Fats, with
Fats and Navarro, the amazing trump of player. It's insane.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, I know it was. I mean, I guess I
had too many dogs in my head to even stop
and realize what I was doing. Yeah, oh, but you know,
so this is I credit bad.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
But and Jalous were doing that with getting me on
a lot of jobs with uh Fast of all, I think,
I'm sorry, I can't remember.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Some of me. Some other the the best players around
played with some.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Of these jobs, and I was a young, young.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Pet and my having an opportunity to play with them
was tremendous.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
At eighteen playing with people like Bud, Poal and Fat
and Navar. Were you were you nervous at all?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Well?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I was too stupid to be nervous, So I always
felt that if they wanted me there, then I'll just
you know that I should be there. I was never really.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
One of these guys. Was felt intimidated. I just felt well,
look if they want me to read, and I'm just
you know, I guess I'm supposed to be here. So
it wasn't bad. So I went on and did what
I did. But it was certainly not on the level
(04:42):
of JJ Johnson and all of these people that I
was playing with when I was a teenager, right, I.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Mean Roy Haynes, who we thankfully, just like you, we
still have around these days. He was on those Bud
Powell sessions as well, the drummer Roy Haynes. Do you
ever have the urge to call someone like that these
days and just sort of confirm that these things actually happened.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I called Roy upon his birthdays, and I always call
him up and we talk about things that we can
both remember. So Roy, I know from I know Roy.
We know. We were a bunch of young kids wanting
to play music. And Roy moved up in our neighborhood,
(05:32):
up on sugar Hill they called it. We all knew him.
And then Roy was playing with Leicester.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yell, you must have loved Lester. I mean, I can
imagine Lester must have been an inspiration for you.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Lester Young was God, you know, and it was so
good to get to know Lester Yell and to know
that Lester Young liked to me because we used to
be up in Leicester's apartment at the Alvin Hotel up
one Broadway, and guys would be let's look at the
(06:09):
if for some guys coming musicians. He would call down
and tell a guy, no, say I'm not home. So
he you know, a lot of people came to see him,
but he didn't avide everybody, and he liked me. He
liked me and Matt Roach used to come out there
(06:29):
and I got a great friendship with the Great Prayers
and that gave me a lot of validation that I
was doing something right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Absolutely. I'm realizing Roy has a birthday coming up in
a few days here, so I guess you'll be probably
calling him.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Huh oh, yeah, I didn't know it was coming up here.
I'll find out about it and I will definitely call him, definitely.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, yeah, man, Roy will be twenty ninety seven. You're
ninety one. Now, how long ago does an experience like
that feel it this point? Like, does it even feel
like it was in the same lifetime?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well? Yes and no it uh, you know, there was
no in a life that's a tough tough question, because
lifetime means, you know, the last week could be a
different lifetime in a way of speaking, in a way
(07:34):
it's a different yes, but still it was a lifetime
which I was involved in, so it's not that different.
But yes, it was different in so many ways, different
musicians around, different venues around. You know, lifetime is a
difficult word since I believe in reincarnation. I accept reincarmation.
(08:00):
So maybe when you say it was a different lifetime,
it vends up too many contradictory things to be able
to answer that precisely.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
No, I see what you mean. I see what you mean.
I was watching an interview did the other night in
nineteen sixty two on Ralph Gleason's show that I Used
to Have Jazz Casual. You were the same age during
the filming of that that I Am. Now you're thirty two,
and you were referring to yourself as old and not taping.
You refer to yourself as kind of like an old cat. Now,
(08:34):
I'm curious what advice you might give yourself at thirty two.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Now. You know, I've made so many mistakes in life.
I've done some good things in life.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
You know, I was learning, which I was a learning experience.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I think I was born a fairly positive person. Used
to call me the jesture. Well, no, I was your
little boy so and playing. So I think I had
a positive personality all through my life. You know, that's
what we think, and it's good, but things happened to us.
(09:15):
We get tested in life, and it's a long trip.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
And I've known so many people that didn't make it
all the way and ended up in terribo situations. I
was talking about my friend. There is a great drummer
from Chicago named Aike Day. They played with that day
(09:42):
when I was in Chicago Reagon nineteen forty nine. He
was strung out on drugs and I was star sort
of strung out on drugs at the time. So that
was a different, different world. But it was one of
those rivers I had to cross, so that it's hard
(10:03):
to look back, you know. I made a lot of
mistakes in life. I did some things in life which
I like my music. I was already trying to get better.
But as I said, I was a guy that wasn't
afraid of trying to do something and playing with superior
(10:25):
musicians and all that. Because you know, I thought that
I should be there. They wanted me to be there.
We have to learn we have to try to be
out the Golden rule when all that stuff got to
try to do it. We don't get it now, we
have to try it again. Like it said in the
TV commercial, pay me now or pay me later.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I'm quote I'm gonna start quoting that.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, man, you gotta get it right. You can't do
anything and get away with it. You gotta get it right.
You don't get it right now, you're gonna get happy
get it right later because you reap. But to so see,
some of these things are very important to remember that
what life is aboved life is to find out the
(11:20):
reason for life? What does it mean? And that goes
on and on. Man who knows how many lives we
have to live could read a brilliant Tridian who knows.
I don't know, but I know that you can't get
it generally in one lifetime. Some people are really advanced
(11:42):
that I've read in life. I say, wow, their journey.
They know a lot more than I do than some people.
I'm ahead of some other people in their journey. I say, wow,
I've learned some things. This guy hasn't learned, or this
girl I even learned. All of these things mean something.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
We're going to take a quick break here, but we'll
be back with more from Sonny Rollins. We're back with
more from Sonny Rollins. You know, I'm thinking about what
you've sewed musically, and that certainly is more and more
than I think many people, you know, whatever, contribute to
one lifetime. And I was thinking about the year particular,
(12:26):
nineteen fifty six for you. That year you played a
date with Miles Davis that included Charlie Parker. Do you
remember that date? Oh yeah, Collector's Items, Collector's Items exactly.
You played Serpent's Tooth. Did you interact with Bird much
on that session?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Well, Bird was another one of my gruges, so of
course there was a lot of other some other things
happen on that particular session. And well, I guess I
might as were old say it. At that time, I
was still on drugs. I hadn't seen Charlie Riff Parker
(13:05):
or ours, he said, said Sarah. Sonny said.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I told him.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I think he said, yeah, how you doing. I think
he meant that I bet my life together, And I
tell him, oh, yeah, yeah, Mandham, I'm doing good, you know.
So I lied to him. I wasn't doing good. And
some guys in the band later on during the session
(13:30):
they read it on me. They said, oh, man, Sonny,
Sonny was getting high with this last night. So anyway,
later on the session, after he found out that I
had lied to him, I had noticed something in him
had destroyed. He was had desponded. He was to know
(13:51):
that I had and not just me. Then I realized
maln Bird was so involved with all of the young
musicians trying to follow his music in his lifestyle was
killing him. The drug Yeah, knowing that all these young
(14:11):
guys were using drugs, it worth killing him, It worth
killing you. And I saw that at this session. So
you know what I said, Okay, that's it. I said
this to myself, I'm going to get off of drugs
and still Charlie Parker that he shouldn't be so down
(14:34):
because some people are following his positive effect on their life,
not the negative effect. And that's when I made my
decision to get off of drugs.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Wow, I didn't know that. I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, well that's part of this life that I'm living here.
So I say, you know what I got off of drugs.
I didn't know whether they need to know all of that,
but it wasn't losing.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
It's very fascinating. Did you ever get a chance to
tell Charlie that you got clean? O?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Well, what happened was this. There was a drug rehabilitation
place in Lexington, Kentucky. It was the first place where
every It was like the Betty Ford Clinic before the
Betty Ford Clinic, and a lot of people were there,
people that were into drugs, and movie stars were there.
(15:31):
We were treated like patients, not as criminals anyway.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
So I was there for the cure.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
The cure was I been four months. I left Lexington
in five five fifty five. That's when I was this
charge or whatever you want to call it. But the
unfortunate maybe so maybe not. A part of it was
(16:01):
that Charlie Parker passed away one month before I got
out of Lexington, Kentucky. So I never got the chance
to which I was waiting to do growing up your
berth mad him straight, Charlie m straight man. I would
(16:23):
convince him or he would know that I was so
anxious because I was so ashamed of lying to him.
Earlier on this record, Dag he just recalled. So I
was so anxious for this to happen. I would be
able to see him and convince him that I was
(16:44):
that I wasn't going to disgrace him anymore. But unfortunately
that would denied me.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
However, I do believe in things like.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
The afterlife and all that stuff, So I think Charlie
Parker knew wherever he was at that. Oh Sonny got
my message.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, no, definitely. And you know, really, when you think
about it too, it's pretty great timing that you got
clean in fifty five, because I mean, in fifty six
your career is really insane. Your output I'm thinking about.
You know, you do Saxophone Colossus tenor Madness, you do
Brilliant Corners with The Loneus, You do a lot of
(17:30):
your work with Max Roach and Clifford Brown Quintet. Just
really incredible stuff is happening. I wanted to ask you
that Brilliant Corners album with The Loneus Monk. That record
really blows my mind when I listened to it. It's
like spectacularly complex, especially that title track. Do you remember
was that a tough session? A couple of sessions.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, very tough session. It was a little different than
the music that Monk could play before, as I remember,
tough music, tough music. But everybody likes that record a lot.
You already mentioned mad when they're talking about monks accomplishments.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, did you enjoy playing on it?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I think so. I think so. It was a hard
record to make, you know, it was hard. Everybody didn't
get it the first first go round, but yeah, sure
was playing with Mark. Playing with Mark was it was
a celestial experience. Whatever came out of it, and I
(18:33):
had that experience. And everybody liked that record a great deal.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I know. Ernie Henry, another tenor player. He ended up
leaving I think one of the sessions, and then Clark
Terry came in to sort of play. Did you ever
feel like leaving?
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Oh no, no, no, maybe if they kicked me out,
but I'm not leaving on my own.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
No, you're not quitting.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Oh, they'd have to show me the door.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
There was a lot of great people on that record.
There was Oscar Pettiford was there, Max Rhoades, I believe,
and played the chilette. I forget. Everybody that was under
regulars from it. Was great. It was a little different
than some of the music he had done before, so
(19:21):
it was quite a quite a landmark.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, can you tell me about playing in the Max
Roach Clifford Brown quintet with yourself and George Morrow and
Richie Powell. It sounds to me like you guys had
incredible chemistry. Did it feel that way to you at
the time?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Of course I had played with Mat for a couple
of times in New York, but when that was uh,
the band was Clifford and he it was different. Was
right now I was doing more. I think I played
as a side man or something on some record Max
(19:59):
Roads in New York. But when I played with the band,
that band, it was really I don't know. I'm glad
it sounded like that because I had a great experience
playing with Clifford Brown, and comfort was such a straight
(20:19):
a straight up guy with such a straight up player,
one of the mess players as we know. When I
look back today and I talk to different guys, all
these young guys, Clifford Brown was their favorite trumpet player.
So he was quite a guy. But he was also
(20:39):
a great person. And I learned a lot from Clifford
because Clifford was playing all of this music, but he
was not a guy that was messing around with drugs.
He wasn't a cno. So I said to myself, wow, man,
listened to all this music he can play and he's
(21:01):
not had nothing to do with his personal life, So
you don't have to be using drugs, drinking a lot
and even gotten bad to play as much music as
he did. And that was inspirational to me and I
really learned for that. He said, Wow, man, if Clifton
(21:24):
should do it, Man, all his music he's playing, I
can do it. I don't need drugs to play. So
he was a grand We were good friends. I mean,
you know, I was really close after he passed away.
When when we were playing in the band, and sometimes
(21:45):
I had channel Clifford, I said, Clifford, man, what would
what should we do right here? I mean I talked
to him like that about the music and then he'd
answer me. And that went on for a while run
before that band broke up. Max goot I did trumpet plays,
(22:08):
of course, but that happened for a while and then
after a while I had stopped channeling Clifford and let
him go on on his journey his life journey, but
I channeled him for a long time after he passed,
and then you know, and we had to play the
(22:31):
same music, a lot of the same music.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
We'll be right back with more from Sonny Rollins after
a quick break. We're back with the rest of my
conversation with Sonny Rollins. Do you remember where you were
when you found out Clifford and Richie Powell passed away
in that car accident.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Well, the brand was in uh Brownie and Uh Richie
were in Philadelphia where they lived. Richie lived in willowgro
sort of suburb Brownie was in. So we had been
on the road to ben have been the road. So
we had a low time off before we went. I
(23:16):
think they we're going out to California, but on the
way we were going to play in Chicago. So anyway,
the days we had off, Marx and myself came to
New York and Georgia Morrow came to New York. You know.
The next job was Chicago, and we left Chiclo travel
(23:42):
by car, and Brownie and Richie Powell left Philadelphia Tavern
on the Pennsylvania turnbake by car, Mark Say and I
and George Margutten. We got to Chicago, and we, you know,
waiting around there. I remember Miles was playing at a
club right down the street on sixty thirty Street. So
(24:06):
while we were waiting for cliff to arrive into Carlo,
we got the bad news. It was a soccer and
I mean we were quiet like babies, and there was
you know, there was a big event because everybody loved Brownie. Yeah,
(24:27):
I mean Richie too, but Brownie was you know, Brownie
was the leader and had gotten more accolades and Richie,
you know, Richie was served, but she.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Was making his name at the time.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Really, huh, he was making his name.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
At the time.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Incredible playing Brownie had made his name.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Really.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Did you see Bud Powell in the sort of aftermath
of that or ever get a chance to talk with
Bud Powell, who was Richie Powell's brother. Do you know
how he took that?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
I don't know how he took that note? No, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Did you feel like that band had more yet to do?
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I think so? We think you didn't know. Clifford and
now I used to practice together all the time, and
besides the gigs, but we were trying to get closer,
you know, as to musicians playing a saxophone and trumpet.
So we were trying to get closer, trying to get
(25:29):
tighter with our things. We had to play ensemble and everything,
and I was new in the bands. I was trying
to learn the book and all of this stuff. But
besides that, there was this, besides the repertoire I was
playing with Clifford that he and I tried to always
(25:53):
get closer. So yeah, I think we had a lot
to do.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, do you think they had anything to do with
you sort of stripping things back and go into like
that trio format the next year just just you on
sacks and then bass and drums. Was that related musically all?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
I don't remember when I did the first trio albums that.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Would fifty around that time, yes, maybe six months later,
eight months later, it would have been just.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yeah, I don't know. If no, I don't believe so,
because I had always I had always uh enjoyed the
smaller instrumentation. You know. In fact, when our first met
Miles Davis, I was playing trio and we were playing
(26:47):
opposite Miles. You know, Miles was the first Stars and
we was a local band, and I think I was
playing trio at that time, So no, I think I
think the trios I did didn't stem from uh the
cofored Brown period.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Were you surprised how curious people found that idea of
you just playing in that small trio you based drums
like you did on Way out West or not at
the vanguard.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I hope that it would be received Well.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Well, I think it was. I think it absolutely was.
I mean, it's it's it's it's.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Those seemed to have really stood the test of time
in an incredible way. But it's it's funny also just
in a way, how curious people find that you know
that that it's like, oh, whoa, you know, this isn't
this pianoist trio? You know, it seemed to sort of
well I.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Always liked that, and not play was a great piano players,
So there's no reflection on plane. But I liked the
idea of just a rhythm section and allowing me to
sort of be free, in a completely free just compose
(27:59):
things in my own in my own mind and create
the harmonies and the musical situations, and just came to me.
I had a rhythm behind me, I had the base,
and I had the jums to keep things moving. Yeah,
(28:20):
and I had the freedom to conceive of all of
these things. So that's why I liked flying Like that
had nothing to do with anything else.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, got you. There's some wild playing on those records
from you, some and even some incredible you know, evenm
other cats you know, like not at the Vanguard. There's
a couple of basils on that record that are great
as well. You know.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, I tried to get his guys that weren't afraid
to play without a piano.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
See, a lot of guys just you know, would be
reticent to do that. Well they had, you know, because
the piano flits right in with the with a with
a base you know, like ham and eggs.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they I.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Mean, yes, oh wow, piano and drums here, base here
is playing years old they have. You know, those guys
can wake up in the middle of the night and
throw him and be writ in tune to the next note.
So it was something which you know, you're it was
(29:33):
somewhat of a challenge to them.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, it was wilbur Ware by the way, be aware.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Wilbur Aware. We used to have a joke about Bilber.
We used to call them wilburgh beware.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
That's great. Alvin Jones also on drums on that just
so j Yeah, incredible, incredible trio man Man.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Then I had some other guys on that. On other
parts of the record, I added a Pete le Roker
and another guy.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
From UH, Donald Bailey, Baltimore.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Donald.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Who is Donald Bailey?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I can't figure out who is Donald Bailey bass player?
I know there's a drummer, Donald Bailey, right, But there's
a drummer Donald Bailey. But is there also But I
can't find anything out about a bass player.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Donald Bailey was I know, I know he was very
under uh that's here for music. Nobody know much about him.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
How did you know him?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
My good friend went to school down there at UH.
I've watched college. I forget what it was, which is
you have to forgive me. You know, there's when you
get he said, he your your your memory, you know,
your short term memory. It goes, you know, like ten
(30:59):
minutes from now. But I need it now. But I
had Oh but anyway, no, he's here. Was very but
he was known in the area, you know, and he's
a good player. You know, he played good. I liked
him on those things.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
I always thought maybe was someone that like just couldn't say,
like you couldn't say who it was for some contractual
reason or something, because I was like, good, yeah, I can't.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Know this guy is I know down really and uh
unfortunately he passed not too long after those records came out,
but they did a great, great job over your covering
me on that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Absolutely did the record Sonny Side Up that you did
with Dizzy Gillespie and Sunny Stitt in fifty nine. Oh yeah,
how did that come together?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Well? I came together to Norman Grange.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Okay, of course did you know.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Who Norman Grande is?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
He did jazz at the Philharmonic, right, you put on
all those all right?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
So he was promote jazz. Yeah, he did a lot
of promotion of different people. And his crowned segment was
judged the poo monic. But he was a big time
or jazz promoter. He ain't replaying someplace. See, he's got
(32:21):
to be a big fan of mine. And then he
he was his date, I mean he arranged a date.
That's it turned out to be, uh, Sunny and Sunny
and Dizzy.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah. Were you friendly with Dizzy at that time or
did you know him? Decently well at all.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, I was friendly with Dizzy. You know, if you
know Dissy at all, you've got to be friendly with him.
Just that type of guy he's I mean, he's always
going to be something light and amusing that becomes part
of the conversation. And you know, Dissey was a wonderful guy.
(33:04):
Dissey with the guy that always was teaching people stuff.
You know, he don't really young Musard should be run
and he'd come in and you know, they showed to
get him on the piano and show the piano playing
some chords and sense chords, you know, stuff like that.
(33:26):
He was a great natural teacher. I mean, I mean
he wasn't trying to diminish the gad. I don't mean
like that. I mean we were happy to have Bisy
Gillespie there. That that was so you won't he wanted
to uh to teach, you know, not to dispact the
(33:48):
other guy at all, not in that sense in the least.
Just everybody was listening to what he was doing, saying.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
And playing that record some side up was kind of
an anomaly, I feel like in your catalog at least,
you know, at the time, it felt maybe much more
like a dizzy record than anything else, which I think
is probably only natural.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I think it it's a dissy records it.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, I mean it's kind of like the three of
you got. I mean, you know it's it's named Sonny Sided.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I mean there was Busy Gillespie. It was his session.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
I mean yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that's fair, that's fair.
That's such a cool record.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, some people liked it a lot. Some people musicians
really thought that that was one of my best records.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, well you know what, you recorded that fifty seven,
but it comes out fifty nine. The next year, nineteen sixty,
Lee Morgan quoted you on a Jazz Messengers record. He
did your little no no down just they're just this
little phrase that you do. Oh really and yeah, and
in Lee quoted you on this song called the Opener
(34:57):
on a Jazz Messengers record just the next year.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Oh it's good. Yeah. No, Ley is a great player. Yeah,
Lay used to come whenever's playing with Matts and Confidence
Philadelphia at a club there. Lee would come by, you know,
to hat Clifford. I mean, so that's another.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Guy, I mean, the young guy that all loved Clifford
so much.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
So anyway, that's when they met to me. And uh,
he used to play outside the club with his mouthweist alone.
He would show me what he could do just playing
his mouth best. And those life says, they say, hey, man,
that's good. Yeah, Lee Morgan, I mean, but he's great. Man,
(35:43):
he's a great player.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
You never got to play with him, did you.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I don't think so. I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
No.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I think that's one one of the trumble players that
I missed.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Would have been great to hear you guys together.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Man, Yeah, wonder Rogerson must have been a yeah, I'm sure.
I'm sure I would have been inspired.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm curious. Is anyone you admire outside
of jazz in terms of musically?
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Oh? Yeah, I admire all of the great musicians from
those centuries. I like js Bach, I like Brahms, Debut
C Revel, I like Fat Swawer, Louis Jordan Korsms my favorite,
(36:36):
you know, and I like everybody. Yeah, I appreciate all
kinds of music.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Do you listen to music at all still? These days?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Sure? Three?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
What do you what do you listen to? What do
you enjoy listening to?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Now? I don't listen to too much music. It's srange.
I've listened to soul much music in my life. I
still think music all the time. I'm still playing my horn,
even though I can't play my own anymore. I'm still
my imagine in passages that I would be fingering on
(37:13):
my instrumental, although I can't do that anymore. So now
listening to music. I love music, and occasionally I get
to hear music, aren't some of the radio stations I have.
Or I'll hear some music and I love it. But
(37:34):
I don't go out to listen to music anymore. I
don't mean go out in the street. I mean I
don't seek out music anymore.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Is it frustrating to hear in a sense since you
can't you just pick up your horn and play some
figures or anything.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
To a certain extent, I wouldn't look very completely as frustration,
but that's part of it, because I hear something and
I fear what I would be doing what I can do,
so in a sense I was safe. There's not all
all frustration because I love music and listening to somebody
(38:16):
that I admire is great. It's a great feeling. So
frustration might come a little bit because I should contribute
being that it was part of.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Your scene, Sonny it is. It was a pleasure and
an honor speaking with you. I hope we get to
do it again.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Okay, man, take it even God bless you as.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Well, sir. All right man, Hi bye, Sonny. Thanks to
Sonny Rollins for taking us back to some of the earliest,
most important moments in American recorded music history. To hear
our favorite Sonny Rollins songs, check out the playlist at
broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to
(39:02):
our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast,
where you can find all of our new episodes. You
can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record
is produced at help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Talliday,
Maeric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafe.
Our executive producer is Mia Lobel. Broken Record is a
(39:23):
production of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and
others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus
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for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and if you
like the show, please remember to share, rate, and review
(39:44):
us on your podcast app or them us expec Kenny Beats.
I'm justin Richmond.
Pushkin. Hey everyone, Today we're continuing our celebration of Black
Music Month with one of my all time favorites, jazz legend,
Sonny Rollins. Rollins is dubbed the Saxophone Colossus. He's an
American tenor and composer who was widely regarded as one
(00:37):
of the most influential jazz musicians ever, with several awards
under his belt, a Grammy Award for Lifetime Achievement in
the National Medal of Arts to name a few. Some
even venture to call him the greatest living improviser. Sadly, now,
at ninety one years old, Rollins no longer plays as
a result of pulmonary fibrosis, but he is able to
(00:59):
look back at an eight decade career that took him
all the way from the beginnings of bebop to playing
with the Rolling Stones and all over the world. On
today's episode, I spoke to Sonny Rollins by phone about
one of his first big gigs at eighteen way back
in nineteen forty nine, playing alongside other jazz icons like
Bud Powell and Fats Navarro. He also explains why he
(01:21):
no longer actively listens to music, and for the first
time ever, how Charlie Parker is the reason he kicked drugs.
This is broken record Liner notes to the digital age.
I'm justin Mitchman. Here's my phone conversation with the great
Sonny Rollins. I want to talk about early in your career.
(01:43):
You were eighteen years old in nineteen forty nine. That
was your first professional date and the first that I
can figure was with Babs Gonzales on Saint Louis Blues.
That does that seem true?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
I know that I had began recording in I've laid foties,
so I would imagine that it might be true. I
can't verify exactly.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Do you remember Babs Gonzales pretty well?
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Oh? Sure? Very dish is like a character you. Yeah,
I remember Mads very well. Babs. I liked my playing
a lot, and I used to make some of these
gigs that dads Gonzales had pole up a lot of
(02:33):
resists in the car and we go down to Philly,
or we go up to Boston or president an immediate area,
and hey, so I got a chance to play with
some of my idols. I got a chance to play
with Faction of Varrow.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
I want to bring that up the same year, when
you're still eighteen, you got to play on some pretty
incredible un power records, well, Pouncing with Bud, fifty second
Street Theme, Dance of the Infidels, I mean, just real,
real classics, and you're playing on there with Fats, with
Fats and Navarro, the amazing trump of player. It's insane.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Yeah, I know it was. I mean, I guess I
had too many dogs in my head to even stop
and realize what I was doing. Yeah, oh, but you know,
so this is I credit bad.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
But and Jalous were doing that with getting me on
a lot of jobs with uh Fast of all, I think,
I'm sorry, I can't remember.
Speaker 2 (03:40):
Some of me. Some other the the best players around
played with some.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Of these jobs, and I was a young, young.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Pet and my having an opportunity to play with them
was tremendous.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
At eighteen playing with people like Bud, Poal and Fat
and Navar. Were you were you nervous at all?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Well?
Speaker 3 (04:03):
I was too stupid to be nervous, So I always
felt that if they wanted me there, then I'll just
you know that I should be there. I was never really.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
One of these guys. Was felt intimidated. I just felt well,
look if they want me to read, and I'm just
you know, I guess I'm supposed to be here. So
it wasn't bad. So I went on and did what
I did. But it was certainly not on the level
(04:42):
of JJ Johnson and all of these people that I
was playing with when I was a teenager, right, I.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Mean Roy Haynes, who we thankfully, just like you, we
still have around these days. He was on those Bud
Powell sessions as well, the drummer Roy Haynes. Do you
ever have the urge to call someone like that these
days and just sort of confirm that these things actually happened.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
I called Roy upon his birthdays, and I always call
him up and we talk about things that we can
both remember. So Roy, I know from I know Roy.
We know. We were a bunch of young kids wanting
to play music. And Roy moved up in our neighborhood,
(05:32):
up on sugar Hill they called it. We all knew him.
And then Roy was playing with Leicester.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Yell, you must have loved Lester. I mean, I can
imagine Lester must have been an inspiration for you.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
Lester Young was God, you know, and it was so
good to get to know Lester Yell and to know
that Lester Young liked to me because we used to
be up in Leicester's apartment at the Alvin Hotel up
one Broadway, and guys would be let's look at the
(06:09):
if for some guys coming musicians. He would call down
and tell a guy, no, say I'm not home. So
he you know, a lot of people came to see him,
but he didn't avide everybody, and he liked me. He
liked me and Matt Roach used to come out there
(06:29):
and I got a great friendship with the Great Prayers
and that gave me a lot of validation that I
was doing something right. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Absolutely. I'm realizing Roy has a birthday coming up in
a few days here, so I guess you'll be probably
calling him.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Huh oh, yeah, I didn't know it was coming up here.
I'll find out about it and I will definitely call him, definitely.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Yeah, yeah, man, Roy will be twenty ninety seven. You're
ninety one. Now, how long ago does an experience like
that feel it this point? Like, does it even feel
like it was in the same lifetime?
Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well? Yes and no it uh, you know, there was
no in a life that's a tough tough question, because
lifetime means, you know, the last week could be a
different lifetime in a way of speaking, in a way
(07:34):
it's a different yes, but still it was a lifetime
which I was involved in, so it's not that different.
But yes, it was different in so many ways, different
musicians around, different venues around. You know, lifetime is a
difficult word since I believe in reincarnation. I accept reincarmation.
(08:00):
So maybe when you say it was a different lifetime,
it vends up too many contradictory things to be able
to answer that precisely.
Speaker 1 (08:12):
No, I see what you mean. I see what you mean.
I was watching an interview did the other night in
nineteen sixty two on Ralph Gleason's show that I Used
to Have Jazz Casual. You were the same age during
the filming of that that I Am. Now you're thirty two,
and you were referring to yourself as old and not taping.
You refer to yourself as kind of like an old cat. Now,
(08:34):
I'm curious what advice you might give yourself at thirty two.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Now. You know, I've made so many mistakes in life.
I've done some good things in life.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
You know, I was learning, which I was a learning experience.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
I think I was born a fairly positive person. Used
to call me the jesture. Well, no, I was your
little boy so and playing. So I think I had
a positive personality all through my life. You know, that's
what we think, and it's good, but things happened to us.
(09:15):
We get tested in life, and it's a long trip.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
You know.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
And I've known so many people that didn't make it
all the way and ended up in terribo situations. I
was talking about my friend. There is a great drummer
from Chicago named Aike Day. They played with that day
(09:42):
when I was in Chicago Reagon nineteen forty nine. He
was strung out on drugs and I was star sort
of strung out on drugs at the time. So that
was a different, different world. But it was one of
those rivers I had to cross, so that it's hard
(10:03):
to look back, you know. I made a lot of
mistakes in life. I did some things in life which
I like my music. I was already trying to get better.
But as I said, I was a guy that wasn't
afraid of trying to do something and playing with superior
(10:25):
musicians and all that. Because you know, I thought that
I should be there. They wanted me to be there.
We have to learn we have to try to be
out the Golden rule when all that stuff got to
try to do it. We don't get it now, we
have to try it again. Like it said in the
TV commercial, pay me now or pay me later.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
I'm quote I'm gonna start quoting that.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
Yeah, man, you gotta get it right. You can't do
anything and get away with it. You gotta get it right.
You don't get it right now, you're gonna get happy
get it right later because you reap. But to so see,
some of these things are very important to remember that
what life is aboved life is to find out the
(11:20):
reason for life? What does it mean? And that goes
on and on. Man who knows how many lives we
have to live could read a brilliant Tridian who knows.
I don't know, but I know that you can't get
it generally in one lifetime. Some people are really advanced
(11:42):
that I've read in life. I say, wow, their journey.
They know a lot more than I do than some people.
I'm ahead of some other people in their journey. I say, wow,
I've learned some things. This guy hasn't learned, or this
girl I even learned. All of these things mean something.
Speaker 1 (12:04):
We're going to take a quick break here, but we'll
be back with more from Sonny Rollins. We're back with
more from Sonny Rollins. You know, I'm thinking about what
you've sewed musically, and that certainly is more and more
than I think many people, you know, whatever, contribute to
one lifetime. And I was thinking about the year particular,
(12:26):
nineteen fifty six for you. That year you played a
date with Miles Davis that included Charlie Parker. Do you
remember that date? Oh yeah, Collector's Items, Collector's Items exactly.
You played Serpent's Tooth. Did you interact with Bird much
on that session?
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Well, Bird was another one of my gruges, so of
course there was a lot of other some other things
happen on that particular session. And well, I guess I
might as were old say it. At that time, I
was still on drugs. I hadn't seen Charlie Riff Parker
(13:05):
or ours, he said, said Sarah. Sonny said.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
I told him.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
I think he said, yeah, how you doing. I think
he meant that I bet my life together, And I
tell him, oh, yeah, yeah, Mandham, I'm doing good, you know.
So I lied to him. I wasn't doing good. And
some guys in the band later on during the session
(13:30):
they read it on me. They said, oh, man, Sonny,
Sonny was getting high with this last night. So anyway,
later on the session, after he found out that I
had lied to him, I had noticed something in him
had destroyed. He was had desponded. He was to know
(13:51):
that I had and not just me. Then I realized
maln Bird was so involved with all of the young
musicians trying to follow his music in his lifestyle was
killing him. The drug Yeah, knowing that all these young
(14:11):
guys were using drugs, it worth killing him, It worth
killing you. And I saw that at this session. So
you know what I said, Okay, that's it. I said
this to myself, I'm going to get off of drugs
and still Charlie Parker that he shouldn't be so down
(14:34):
because some people are following his positive effect on their life,
not the negative effect. And that's when I made my
decision to get off of drugs.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
Wow, I didn't know that. I had no idea.
Speaker 2 (14:50):
Yeah, well that's part of this life that I'm living here.
So I say, you know what I got off of drugs.
I didn't know whether they need to know all of that,
but it wasn't losing.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
It's very fascinating. Did you ever get a chance to
tell Charlie that you got clean? O?
Speaker 2 (15:09):
Well, what happened was this. There was a drug rehabilitation
place in Lexington, Kentucky. It was the first place where
every It was like the Betty Ford Clinic before the
Betty Ford Clinic, and a lot of people were there,
people that were into drugs, and movie stars were there.
(15:31):
We were treated like patients, not as criminals anyway.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
So I was there for the cure.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
The cure was I been four months. I left Lexington
in five five fifty five. That's when I was this
charge or whatever you want to call it. But the
unfortunate maybe so maybe not. A part of it was
(16:01):
that Charlie Parker passed away one month before I got
out of Lexington, Kentucky. So I never got the chance
to which I was waiting to do growing up your
berth mad him straight, Charlie m straight man. I would
(16:23):
convince him or he would know that I was so
anxious because I was so ashamed of lying to him.
Earlier on this record, Dag he just recalled. So I
was so anxious for this to happen. I would be
able to see him and convince him that I was
(16:44):
that I wasn't going to disgrace him anymore. But unfortunately
that would denied me.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
However, I do believe in things like.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
The afterlife and all that stuff, So I think Charlie
Parker knew wherever he was at that. Oh Sonny got
my message.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah, no, definitely. And you know, really, when you think
about it too, it's pretty great timing that you got
clean in fifty five, because I mean, in fifty six
your career is really insane. Your output I'm thinking about.
You know, you do Saxophone Colossus tenor Madness, you do
Brilliant Corners with The Loneus, You do a lot of
(17:30):
your work with Max Roach and Clifford Brown Quintet. Just
really incredible stuff is happening. I wanted to ask you
that Brilliant Corners album with The Loneus Monk. That record
really blows my mind when I listened to it. It's
like spectacularly complex, especially that title track. Do you remember
was that a tough session? A couple of sessions.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Yeah, very tough session. It was a little different than
the music that Monk could play before, as I remember,
tough music, tough music. But everybody likes that record a lot.
You already mentioned mad when they're talking about monks accomplishments.
Speaker 1 (18:10):
Yeah, did you enjoy playing on it?
Speaker 2 (18:13):
I think so. I think so. It was a hard
record to make, you know, it was hard. Everybody didn't
get it the first first go round, but yeah, sure
was playing with Mark. Playing with Mark was it was
a celestial experience. Whatever came out of it, and I
(18:33):
had that experience. And everybody liked that record a great deal.
Speaker 1 (18:39):
I know. Ernie Henry, another tenor player. He ended up
leaving I think one of the sessions, and then Clark
Terry came in to sort of play. Did you ever
feel like leaving?
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Oh no, no, no, maybe if they kicked me out,
but I'm not leaving on my own.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
No, you're not quitting.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Oh, they'd have to show me the door.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
There was a lot of great people on that record.
There was Oscar Pettiford was there, Max Rhoades, I believe,
and played the chilette. I forget. Everybody that was under
regulars from it. Was great. It was a little different
than some of the music he had done before, so
(19:21):
it was quite a quite a landmark.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Yeah, can you tell me about playing in the Max
Roach Clifford Brown quintet with yourself and George Morrow and
Richie Powell. It sounds to me like you guys had
incredible chemistry. Did it feel that way to you at
the time?
Speaker 2 (19:38):
Of course I had played with Mat for a couple
of times in New York, but when that was uh,
the band was Clifford and he it was different. Was
right now I was doing more. I think I played
as a side man or something on some record Max
(19:59):
Roads in New York. But when I played with the band,
that band, it was really I don't know. I'm glad
it sounded like that because I had a great experience
playing with Clifford Brown, and comfort was such a straight
(20:19):
a straight up guy with such a straight up player,
one of the mess players as we know. When I
look back today and I talk to different guys, all
these young guys, Clifford Brown was their favorite trumpet player.
So he was quite a guy. But he was also
(20:39):
a great person. And I learned a lot from Clifford
because Clifford was playing all of this music, but he
was not a guy that was messing around with drugs.
He wasn't a cno. So I said to myself, wow, man,
listened to all this music he can play and he's
(21:01):
not had nothing to do with his personal life, So
you don't have to be using drugs, drinking a lot
and even gotten bad to play as much music as
he did. And that was inspirational to me and I
really learned for that. He said, Wow, man, if Clifton
(21:24):
should do it, Man, all his music he's playing, I
can do it. I don't need drugs to play. So
he was a grand We were good friends. I mean,
you know, I was really close after he passed away.
When when we were playing in the band, and sometimes
(21:45):
I had channel Clifford, I said, Clifford, man, what would
what should we do right here? I mean I talked
to him like that about the music and then he'd
answer me. And that went on for a while run
before that band broke up. Max goot I did trumpet plays,
(22:08):
of course, but that happened for a while and then
after a while I had stopped channeling Clifford and let
him go on on his journey his life journey, but
I channeled him for a long time after he passed,
and then you know, and we had to play the
(22:31):
same music, a lot of the same music.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
We'll be right back with more from Sonny Rollins after
a quick break. We're back with the rest of my
conversation with Sonny Rollins. Do you remember where you were
when you found out Clifford and Richie Powell passed away
in that car accident.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Well, the brand was in uh Brownie and Uh Richie
were in Philadelphia where they lived. Richie lived in willowgro
sort of suburb Brownie was in. So we had been
on the road to ben have been the road. So
we had a low time off before we went. I
(23:16):
think they we're going out to California, but on the
way we were going to play in Chicago. So anyway,
the days we had off, Marx and myself came to
New York and Georgia Morrow came to New York. You know.
The next job was Chicago, and we left Chiclo travel
(23:42):
by car, and Brownie and Richie Powell left Philadelphia Tavern
on the Pennsylvania turnbake by car, Mark Say and I
and George Margutten. We got to Chicago, and we, you know,
waiting around there. I remember Miles was playing at a
club right down the street on sixty thirty Street. So
(24:06):
while we were waiting for cliff to arrive into Carlo,
we got the bad news. It was a soccer and
I mean we were quiet like babies, and there was
you know, there was a big event because everybody loved Brownie. Yeah,
(24:27):
I mean Richie too, but Brownie was you know, Brownie
was the leader and had gotten more accolades and Richie,
you know, Richie was served, but she.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Was making his name at the time.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Really, huh, he was making his name.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
At the time.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Incredible playing Brownie had made his name.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
Really.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Did you see Bud Powell in the sort of aftermath
of that or ever get a chance to talk with
Bud Powell, who was Richie Powell's brother. Do you know
how he took that?
Speaker 2 (24:58):
I don't know how he took that note? No, I
don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
Did you feel like that band had more yet to do?
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I think so? We think you didn't know. Clifford and
now I used to practice together all the time, and
besides the gigs, but we were trying to get closer,
you know, as to musicians playing a saxophone and trumpet.
So we were trying to get closer, trying to get
(25:29):
tighter with our things. We had to play ensemble and everything,
and I was new in the bands. I was trying
to learn the book and all of this stuff. But
besides that, there was this, besides the repertoire I was
playing with Clifford that he and I tried to always
(25:53):
get closer. So yeah, I think we had a lot
to do.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Yeah, do you think they had anything to do with
you sort of stripping things back and go into like
that trio format the next year just just you on
sacks and then bass and drums. Was that related musically all?
Speaker 2 (26:10):
I don't remember when I did the first trio albums that.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Would fifty around that time, yes, maybe six months later,
eight months later, it would have been just.
Speaker 2 (26:22):
Yeah, I don't know. If no, I don't believe so,
because I had always I had always uh enjoyed the
smaller instrumentation. You know. In fact, when our first met
Miles Davis, I was playing trio and we were playing
(26:47):
opposite Miles. You know, Miles was the first Stars and
we was a local band, and I think I was
playing trio at that time, So no, I think I
think the trios I did didn't stem from uh the
cofored Brown period.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
Were you surprised how curious people found that idea of
you just playing in that small trio you based drums
like you did on Way out West or not at
the vanguard.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
I hope that it would be received Well.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
Well, I think it was. I think it absolutely was.
I mean, it's it's it's it's.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
Those seemed to have really stood the test of time
in an incredible way. But it's it's funny also just
in a way, how curious people find that you know
that that it's like, oh, whoa, you know, this isn't
this pianoist trio? You know, it seemed to sort of
well I.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Always liked that, and not play was a great piano players,
So there's no reflection on plane. But I liked the
idea of just a rhythm section and allowing me to
sort of be free, in a completely free just compose
(27:59):
things in my own in my own mind and create
the harmonies and the musical situations, and just came to me.
I had a rhythm behind me, I had the base,
and I had the jums to keep things moving. Yeah,
(28:20):
and I had the freedom to conceive of all of
these things. So that's why I liked flying Like that
had nothing to do with anything else.
Speaker 1 (28:31):
Yeah, got you. There's some wild playing on those records
from you, some and even some incredible you know, evenm
other cats you know, like not at the Vanguard. There's
a couple of basils on that record that are great
as well. You know.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
Yeah, I tried to get his guys that weren't afraid
to play without a piano.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
See, a lot of guys just you know, would be
reticent to do that. Well they had, you know, because
the piano flits right in with the with a with
a base you know, like ham and eggs.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, they I.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Mean, yes, oh wow, piano and drums here, base here
is playing years old they have. You know, those guys
can wake up in the middle of the night and
throw him and be writ in tune to the next note.
So it was something which you know, you're it was
(29:33):
somewhat of a challenge to them.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Yeah, it was wilbur Ware by the way, be aware.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
Wilbur Aware. We used to have a joke about Bilber.
We used to call them wilburgh beware.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
That's great. Alvin Jones also on drums on that just
so j Yeah, incredible, incredible trio man Man.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Then I had some other guys on that. On other
parts of the record, I added a Pete le Roker
and another guy.
Speaker 3 (30:08):
From UH, Donald Bailey, Baltimore.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Donald.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Who is Donald Bailey?
Speaker 1 (30:12):
I can't figure out who is Donald Bailey bass player?
I know there's a drummer, Donald Bailey, right, But there's
a drummer Donald Bailey. But is there also But I
can't find anything out about a bass player.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Donald Bailey was I know, I know he was very
under uh that's here for music. Nobody know much about him.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
How did you know him?
Speaker 2 (30:33):
My good friend went to school down there at UH.
I've watched college. I forget what it was, which is
you have to forgive me. You know, there's when you
get he said, he your your your memory, you know,
your short term memory. It goes, you know, like ten
(30:59):
minutes from now. But I need it now. But I
had Oh but anyway, no, he's here. Was very but
he was known in the area, you know, and he's
a good player. You know, he played good. I liked
him on those things.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
I always thought maybe was someone that like just couldn't say,
like you couldn't say who it was for some contractual
reason or something, because I was like, good, yeah, I can't.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Know this guy is I know down really and uh
unfortunately he passed not too long after those records came out,
but they did a great, great job over your covering
me on that. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Absolutely did the record Sonny Side Up that you did
with Dizzy Gillespie and Sunny Stitt in fifty nine. Oh yeah,
how did that come together?
Speaker 2 (31:49):
Well? I came together to Norman Grange.
Speaker 1 (31:52):
Okay, of course did you know.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
Who Norman Grande is?
Speaker 1 (31:56):
He did jazz at the Philharmonic, right, you put on
all those all right?
Speaker 2 (31:59):
So he was promote jazz. Yeah, he did a lot
of promotion of different people. And his crowned segment was
judged the poo monic. But he was a big time
or jazz promoter. He ain't replaying someplace. See, he's got
(32:21):
to be a big fan of mine. And then he
he was his date, I mean he arranged a date.
That's it turned out to be, uh, Sunny and Sunny
and Dizzy.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah. Were you friendly with Dizzy at that time or
did you know him? Decently well at all.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
Yeah, I was friendly with Dizzy. You know, if you
know Dissy at all, you've got to be friendly with him.
Just that type of guy he's I mean, he's always
going to be something light and amusing that becomes part
of the conversation. And you know, Dissey was a wonderful guy.
(33:04):
Dissey with the guy that always was teaching people stuff.
You know, he don't really young Musard should be run
and he'd come in and you know, they showed to
get him on the piano and show the piano playing
some chords and sense chords, you know, stuff like that.
(33:26):
He was a great natural teacher. I mean, I mean
he wasn't trying to diminish the gad. I don't mean
like that. I mean we were happy to have Bisy
Gillespie there. That that was so you won't he wanted
to uh to teach, you know, not to dispact the
(33:48):
other guy at all, not in that sense in the least.
Just everybody was listening to what he was doing, saying.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
And playing that record some side up was kind of
an anomaly, I feel like in your catalog at least,
you know, at the time, it felt maybe much more
like a dizzy record than anything else, which I think
is probably only natural.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
I think it it's a dissy records it.
Speaker 1 (34:11):
Yeah, I mean it's kind of like the three of
you got. I mean, you know it's it's named Sonny Sided.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I mean there was Busy Gillespie. It was his session.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
I mean yeah, yeah, no, no, no, that's fair, that's fair.
That's such a cool record.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Yeah, some people liked it a lot. Some people musicians
really thought that that was one of my best records.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
Yeah, well you know what, you recorded that fifty seven,
but it comes out fifty nine. The next year, nineteen sixty,
Lee Morgan quoted you on a Jazz Messengers record. He
did your little no no down just they're just this
little phrase that you do. Oh really and yeah, and
in Lee quoted you on this song called the Opener
(34:57):
on a Jazz Messengers record just the next year.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
Oh it's good. Yeah. No, Ley is a great player. Yeah,
Lay used to come whenever's playing with Matts and Confidence
Philadelphia at a club there. Lee would come by, you know,
to hat Clifford. I mean, so that's another.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
Guy, I mean, the young guy that all loved Clifford
so much.
Speaker 2 (35:22):
So anyway, that's when they met to me. And uh,
he used to play outside the club with his mouthweist alone.
He would show me what he could do just playing
his mouth best. And those life says, they say, hey, man,
that's good. Yeah, Lee Morgan, I mean, but he's great. Man,
(35:43):
he's a great player.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
You never got to play with him, did you.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I don't think so. I don't think so.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
No.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
I think that's one one of the trumble players that
I missed.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Would have been great to hear you guys together.
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Man, Yeah, wonder Rogerson must have been a yeah, I'm sure.
I'm sure I would have been inspired.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm curious. Is anyone you admire outside
of jazz in terms of musically?
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Oh? Yeah, I admire all of the great musicians from
those centuries. I like js Bach, I like Brahms, Debut
C Revel, I like Fat Swawer, Louis Jordan Korsms my favorite,
(36:36):
you know, and I like everybody. Yeah, I appreciate all
kinds of music.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
Do you listen to music at all still? These days?
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Sure? Three?
Speaker 1 (36:47):
What do you what do you listen to? What do
you enjoy listening to?
Speaker 2 (36:49):
Now? I don't listen to too much music. It's srange.
I've listened to soul much music in my life. I
still think music all the time. I'm still playing my horn,
even though I can't play my own anymore. I'm still
my imagine in passages that I would be fingering on
(37:13):
my instrumental, although I can't do that anymore. So now
listening to music. I love music, and occasionally I get
to hear music, aren't some of the radio stations I have.
Or I'll hear some music and I love it. But
(37:34):
I don't go out to listen to music anymore. I
don't mean go out in the street. I mean I
don't seek out music anymore.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
Is it frustrating to hear in a sense since you
can't you just pick up your horn and play some
figures or anything.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
To a certain extent, I wouldn't look very completely as frustration,
but that's part of it, because I hear something and
I fear what I would be doing what I can do,
so in a sense I was safe. There's not all
all frustration because I love music and listening to somebody
(38:16):
that I admire is great. It's a great feeling. So
frustration might come a little bit because I should contribute
being that it was part of.
Speaker 1 (38:29):
Your scene, Sonny it is. It was a pleasure and
an honor speaking with you. I hope we get to
do it again.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
Okay, man, take it even God bless you as.
Speaker 1 (38:40):
Well, sir. All right man, Hi bye, Sonny. Thanks to
Sonny Rollins for taking us back to some of the earliest,
most important moments in American recorded music history. To hear
our favorite Sonny Rollins songs, check out the playlist at
broken Record podcast dot com. Be sure to subscribe to
(39:02):
our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash broken Record Podcast,
where you can find all of our new episodes. You
can follow us on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record
is produced at help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Talliday,
Maeric Sandler, and Jennifer Sanchez, with engineering help from Nick Chafe.
Our executive producer is Mia Lobel. Broken Record is a
(39:23):
production of Pushkin Industries. If you like this show and
others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus
is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content an uninterrupted
ad free listening for four ninety nine a month. Look
for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts subscriptions, and if you
like the show, please remember to share, rate, and review
(39:44):
us on your podcast app or them us expec Kenny Beats.
I'm justin Richmond.
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