The Herd-Saturday Special- Will Cain, host of "Fox & Friends Weekend"

Colin has an in-depth conversation with Will Cain of FOX News. Will talks about why he decided to leave ESPN for the political world and the role of politics in sports. They talk about the value of having discussions with people that oppose your political leanings and some of the hidden issues with this Covid shutdown that don't get discussed

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hi, everybody, Welcome to our Saturday podcast. I've been doing
this thing for several years. And we talked about everything
we're bringing on liberals, conservatives, actors, movie critics. And I
was on Bill Maher a couple of weeks ago. And
then I went to Twitter and people said, oh, liberal,
you will not take other voices. And I said, hey,

(00:25):
John Goulay, give me Will Kine. I said, Will Kine
works for Fox News. Now give me Will Kane. And
as you know many times, folks, I've Jason Whitlock's been
on my podcast. So Will's co host of Fox and
Friends Weekend. After a roaring start formerly ESPN, ESPN Radio.
So when we first connected, it was downstairs in the

(00:49):
new building at the ESPM and I was going to
the downstairs for makeup, met you. We talked. You told
me about your background, and so start with this. You
have now moved back into politics before you got to ESPN.
Initiate my audience here, Will, What were you doing immediately
before I went to ESPN? I guess I was doing

(01:10):
something very similar to you. I was appearing on shows
like Bill Maher. I had been working at CNN for
five years. I was in essence, their conservative libertarian voice
analyst of opposition at CNN. I'd been doing that for
five years, and I'd also had a job at The Blaze,
the independent streaming news network owned by Glenn Beck right

(01:33):
before ESPN. That's what I was doing. But I was
very excited to come over talk sports and yeah, meet
you in the basement and talk about how I made
that transition. Transition. Now, why did you decide to leave
the more newsy side to sports? You know, here's the thing.
I've always loved sports. I always have. I mean since

(01:55):
I was a kid. I've probably told this story several times,
and I hope your audience hasn't heard it before, but
my first real vivid memory is the nineteen eighty one
NFC Championship game. I mean, to this day, I remember
my parents having a watching party and crying in the
bathroom after Dwight Clark caught that passed from Joe Montana
over Everson Walls. It has been part of my life
since I was a kid, in a core part of

(02:17):
my life, and so sports was never far removed from
my attention nor my analysis. And in twenty fifteen, I
just felt like I didn't want to be a part
of that political conversation. It didn't feel productive, it didn't
feel important, It didn't feel like I had a place
in that conversation. And as we fast forward to twenty twenty,

(02:39):
I'm returning back to the conversation at a time when
I think I do have something important to contribute. It
is very, very important that I step into this arena
where ideas that are very important to who I am
are now being openly debated. So I thought you would
stay at ESPN for a long time. You'd gotten You
were on First Take with Stephen An Max Keller, guys

(03:00):
I know and like, and you were a regular on
those shows, and then you had a radio show, and
so I thought everything was going great. And then out
of the blue one day, I'm like, will Kine's leaving?
Why you did? Let me just ask this, did you
feel uncomfortable at what many believe is a an increasingly
left leaning network? Was it a boss? Was it a direction?

(03:23):
Because I to me, you were one of the rising
stars of the network. And then I read He's leaving,
and I thought, what is going on here? You know,
first of all, I appreciate you saying that about me.
I was very happy at ESPN. I had no ill feelings.
I never felt unwanted. Did I feel uncomfortable. I was
obviously a voice in the opposition. I was a minority

(03:44):
voice at ESPN, not one I believe it's a minority
voice across this country. But that's okay. I'm used to that.
I'm used to being surrounded by people that I disagree with,
and I actually enjoy it. You know, ESPN was going well.
I was on first take. I had gotten my own
radio show. And by the way, it's worth saying this,
you have been a huge influence on the choices that
I've made. Maybe not just the most latest choice, but

(04:06):
getting a radio show at ESPN. Honestly, Colin was like
my moment of arrival. The will Kine Show was everything
I wanted. I had three hours to shape content, to
talk about sports, not use it as a vehicle to
import my politics, but to have conversations that I loved.
It just so happens that Fox News stepped in and
started talking to me. At first, Colin, I wasn't that

(04:28):
interested because I was happy. I was like, I don't
think I'm gonna do this. It's not something I want
to do. But the more I got to know them,
and honestly, the direction of the country of the last
six months, four months, five months, it really impacted my
decision on what I want to be talking about every day.
Will Kine joining us A formerly a coworker at ESPN,

(04:50):
ESPN Radio co host of Fox and Friends Weekends. Early
reports are the shows doing very very well. It is
a weekend show like a Fox and Friends, but it's
the weekend version that's doing very very well well. So
I've always had kind of this theory about my job
as a sports host. You can't totally avoid politics because
politics and sports often converge. But I consider sports the freeway,

(05:13):
and I occasionally take exits off the freeway, but I'm
always mindful of returning as soon as i can back
to the freeway. Got to fill my car with gas,
grab somebody take the exit, talk Drew Brees, talk Kaepernick,
to talk NBA boycott. But then I get back on
the freeway. Do you agree with that's how a sports

(05:35):
talk show host should do it? Okay? I have several thoughts,
And as you said, we haven't talked to you and
I in five years. Since that we have talked, it
was a short conversation in the hallway to the ESPN. So,
first of all, in my estimation, and I don't go
about the world in the business of ground moosing. It
doesn't do anything for me. I have a real hard
time given gratuitous compliments when I walk my dog, when
I had one in the park in Central Park. I

(05:57):
can't return a compliment unless I mean it. Oh you dogs.
I can't say it back unless I can meet it.
So what I'm about to say, I mean, you're the
best sports talk radio guy going. And I know now
radio is a term that is somewhat loose because we're
doing TV, we're doing multimedia. And the reason you are
so good at it is two fold. One, you understand

(06:17):
the business is to be interesting. I've remember you say
that before. I'm not into being right business. I'm I'm
in the interesting business. And that is one true. Second,
you understand how to frame a conversation. So that's what
we talked about every day on the Will CANEO. How
do you frame it? How do you let the audience
know what you're talking about. It's the difference between wallpaper
and art. I can splatter paint all over a wall,

(06:39):
right and you know It's not abstract art until you
put a frame around it. So put a frame around
your conversation, make it interesting, and then you can do
anything within those bounds. I learned a lot of that
from listening to you. Now, how did I approach politics
when it came in? I never ever forgot that the
audience was there to talk about sports, to hear about sports.

(07:00):
It was inevitable at times, let's call them socio political
issues made their way into sports. When I did that,
my approach was this, I didn't see it as an
off ramp because I thought some of these were too
big and too important to just veer into, and we
had to go all the way when they got that big.
But my approach was, here's my belief this is who

(07:21):
I am. Let me be honest with you about my biases,
my beliefs. I don't want to hide them from you,
and in response, I want to hear yours. I believe
the biggest mistake that we can make is to box
people out. Tell them you're wrong, you're racist, you don't
belong in the conversation, and here's the way it is,
and you'd better believe it. That's not what I wanted

(07:42):
to do. I wanted to be honest about who I
was and invite everybody else to tell me how I
was wrong. Yeah, well, you were willing to deal with conflict.
Bill Marroway says that he said the one thing about conservatives,
I appreciate they'll come on my show and we can argue.
He goes, it's very hard to get a liberal to
go on a conservative show and do the same. So
what you were basically doing is inviting conflict, and you're

(08:05):
comfortable with it, and not everybody is comfortable with that.
Some some people debate in comfortable spaces. Some are willing
to debate in uncomfortable spaces. So good for you, I think.
I don't think a lot of people will came joining
us were willing to do that. So here's why I
was comfortable doing that. I know who I am. Yeah,
I know what I believe. There's not going to be
any surprises in the road. I've thought this stuff through

(08:27):
and I know who I am to the core, So
there's no like booby traps. It's gonna get sprung on
me in a debate and oh my god, all of
a sudden, wills are racist. No, I know how I lived,
my life and the ideas I believe in. So therefore,
I'm very comfortable going into any conversation with someone who
is conversing with me or debating with me in good face. Yeah,
it's um, you know, it's it's an interesting world. When

(08:49):
I was at ESPN, I felt the last year got
a little political, but we didn't talk politics much much.
Obama came on my show twice. I thought I leaned left.
I've always felt like I'm a left leaner socially, fiscally
more of a moderate to a right leaner. And then
I came to Fox, and the first year I was
at Fox, everybody's like, wow, you're really conservative, and I'm like, okay,

(09:10):
now both sides hate me. And then now recently people
say I'm woke and I'm way left. And I have
said this privately, I've not said it publicly. But I
was always the kid in high school. I was an athlete, quarterback, athlete,
and I was in a rural high school. A lot
of fights, you know, it's just it was small town America.
I was always the peacemaker because I was always like, guys,

(09:32):
don't get in fights, don't get kicked out of school.
We got a game Friday, you gotta be here. I
was always the peacemaker. I can. I can name the
fights I broke up, even though I was a smart alec.
I was always seeking a kind of resolve or peace
among kids who wanted to fight. And what I have
told people, and I'll tell you this, I don't think
I've ever said this on the air. I become a
little more left in the last year because I feel

(09:57):
we have conflict and we do have a president that,
as I guess the words weaponize social media at times. Now,
Trump's argument is, hey, you guys aren't treating me fair,
so I'm going to use this platform as my voice.
I get that argument because I do think what Trump
it becomes very personal, not about policy, just about the person.
But I do think I have moved left, and I

(10:18):
go back to my seventh, eighth, ninth grade years in
high school, is that when I feel conflict and I
feel divide, I feel like I should offer peace. And
so I do think in the last year I've been
more pro athlete than poor pro GM. So that's how
I feel now. I don't think it's changed how I

(10:40):
think about other issues. But maybe just if you would
address that that. I do think we are divided, and
I have found myself on more than one occasion feeling
like what we need now is less arguing, more listening,
and more a little more kumbaya. So okay, I have
a couple thoughts on that. I've never thought of you

(11:01):
as on the left. I've never thought of I've seen
you as somewhat unpredictable, somewhat independent. I've never thought of
you as in one camp or the other. To be
quite honest, do you think that your approach over the
last as you said, six months to a year and
hearkening back to you, were from a kid being a peacemaker.
I'm just asking you this out of curiosity. Do you

(11:23):
think that's at all driven by a desire to be liked?
Like it's important to me not to be the bad
guy here. I want everybody to get along. So let
me see if I can find the ground where you know,
we can come out of this unscathed. Do you think
that influences you at all? M boy, I don't. I don't.
I think everybody Well, first of all, I think everybody
wants to be liked at some level. You want to
be liked by some Now that I ask you a question.

(11:43):
You're pretty, you're pretty tolerant of people coming after you. Yeah, yeah,
I mean, I don't know. That's a good question. I
think I've always wanted to be liked. I think I've
always wanted to be liked. Yeah, I mean, I it
is some of that being liked. I mean, when I
prepare a show like you, I want to be interesting,
so people say, oh, I love that, Oh that was
really clever. That makes me happy. So yeah, I get

(12:06):
at some level is some of it to be liked.
But I don't worry. What I don't worry about will
is I've I'm supposed to be interviewing you, by the way,
So what I don't worry about is being liked by
the media. I've never given a shit about that. I
don't care about critics. I don't care about I've never
once done a show thinking, God, I hope stephen A.

(12:28):
Smith likes this. I've never believe that. I believe that.
Now let me so I'll time of what I I
have never You're right, everybody cares about being liked. Of
Course you want to be liked. Of course I want
to be liked. But I have never let that overcome
the things that I believe at a very deep level.

(12:49):
And I'll tell you Colin, like, right now, it's a
little it's getting more difficult. Like I have certain things
that I believe, and I believe in rugged individualism. I
believe in merit character, in treating human beings as men,
and I use that word to include women as well
individuals on who they are. I am totally, to my

(13:09):
core resistant on this grouping that is so popular in society,
whether it be by race or gender, or ethnicity or
whatever it may be. And I see that as a
rising tide in America, and I wonder and obviously we're
talking at a very sensitive time in our country right now,
and as it's manifested in the sports world, a lot
of the people who I do care about, like friends

(13:32):
and athletes and analysts at ESPN who are minorities, who
might disagree with my points view I do. I don't
like that they will say, oh, Will, you're wrong, or
you know, wills that dislike me. I don't want that
to happen, But I'm not going to sacrifice my principles
for it. I'm not going to sacrifice what I know
to be true is good about not just this country,

(13:54):
but about the human condition and lifts everybody up. I
don't have any idea, which our initial question was Colin,
It's okay now, I mean, this is this is why
we do the Saturday podcast. Half I had Jim Jim
Miller was on, and halfway through it he starts interviewing me,
and I'm like, I don't care. It's a conversation. Hell
by carry let me let me ask this if. Um,

(14:17):
each party drives me crazy. UM, I think I don't
like the condescending nature of the Democratic Party. UM. I
don't like sometimes the mean spiritedness I see from the
Conservative Party. Um. Both drive me nuts. And then there's
things I like about both. Silicon Valley is overwhelmingly left.

(14:39):
I think they're curious. Um. I think it's I think,
you know, my son tends to be your classic sort
of Silicon Valley left leaning. That he wants information, he's
always looking for new stuff, he wants to dare everybody's voice. Um,
he's very curious. And that that that part I like
about the Democrats. Republic can be very common sense, very

(15:01):
pragmatic with fiscal issues. There's not a lot of you know,
not a lot of economic policy on you know, there's
less regulations, fewer regulations. So there's stuff I like about
both and stuff that drives me mad about both. It is,
how do you, as somebody that you would lean right,

(15:22):
how would you reconcile something that I am seeing in
the last two years that is odd for me, this concluding,
this conspiracy theory thing that Trump sometimes embraces, and I'm
seeing it more, in my opinion, on the right than

(15:44):
the left, this embracing of conspiracy theories. I've made a
career out of making fun of twenty years ago conspiracy
theorists on the Patrick Ewing draft pick on the Kurtschilling sock.
I wrote a chapter about it, two chapters in my
books about it. Do you see that? Because I see
that from the right and it troubles me. Have you

(16:06):
ever heard the joke about the two conspiracy theorists who
got to heaven and Saint Peter said before they walk
into the pearly gates, you can ask me anything you want.
I am omniscient. I will answer any question and give
you total truth on it. And they look at each
other and they go, this is our moment, this is it,
And they say Saint Peter who killed JFK. And Saint
Peter says it was Lee Harvey Oswald from the Grassy Knoll,

(16:29):
and they look at each other and they go, this
thing is bigger than we thought. You can never satisfy
conspiracy theorists, however, Colin, I don't think any political party,
nor either ideology has some kind of monopoly on a
conspiracy theory. I think the Russia collusion investigation has largely
turned out to be a hoax. I think this postal
service thing doesn't have much merit behind it at all.

(16:52):
That's not for me to say the right hasn't indulged
in some craziness as well. And these are the reasons
that I was interested in leaving politics in two thous
in fifteen. They were the unproductive conversations that I no
longer really cared about. The part of now, Colin, here,
let me tell you. Let me tell you how I
ended up right leaning, as you described it me, I
don't even know anymore. I don't I don't know what

(17:13):
to describe myself as. I'm happy to admit I have
conservative leanings, libertarian leadings. I'm definitely not on the left,
you know, so I wasn't always this way. My dad
was a planefs attorney. I grew up in a small
town in Texas. And I'm sure you know this, but
a plantifs attorney sues people medical malpractice, whatever it may be,
and he makes his money on contingency, right, So if

(17:34):
you don't win, you don't make any money. So by nature,
he ended up on the left, you know. I mean,
tort reform was a thing driven by Republican So my
whole life I was surrounded more with left leaning infloyees.
I ended up on the right when I went to
law school. And I went to the law school at
the University of Texas, and I studied the Constitution, and
I studied principles, and listen, there are many principled people

(17:57):
on the left. I believe logic and suppose led me
to being more conservative. I often think our debate to
break down into empathy versus logic. You know, I had
this conversation with Dan Lebotard a few weeks ago. When
it comes to many of these issues taking place in
society right now, we could even apply it to the
one that is literally causing fires in the street. Jacob
Blake and Wisconsin logic will require us to look at

(18:22):
the facts, break it down, ask was it an unjustified shooting?
Asked was it racially motivated? Before we lead to a
conclusion that it was. And by the way, it's indicative
of this huge systemic problem in the United States. Empathy
might lead you to listen to all the athletes, listen
to everyone telling you it's a problem. And I think

(18:42):
I tend to lean much much more heavily on logic.
I try to put more empathy into every analysis that
I take, but I can never divorce myself from the facts,
the principles, and logic. Dan Lebotard is actually sportive of
you when you left ESPN and he said you're a

(19:07):
rare voice at the company and you will be missed.
How surprised were you buy his support a little? I
don't know Dan, well, probably not much more than I
know you. We had a few conversations because he's in
Miami and I was in Bristol and New York, and
we didn't have too many interactions, a few on air interactions.

(19:28):
Listen when when his producer Mike Ryan reached out, I
was excited. It's like, yes, let's do this. I want
to have an hour conversation with Dan Lebotard because I
am intrigued by people that I disagree with. I'm like
excited about that conversation. Tell me how we're how we're
missing the connection here, right, Convince me I'm wrong. I
don't know that you can persuade me because I have
put a lot of work into this thought. But I

(19:49):
want to see if you can. I want to see
how this conversation goes. So I have always been curious
and interested in Dan Lebotard and if he thought I
was a voice that was of some value to ESPN,
well I appreciate that. When you told them you were leaving.
What was our reaction when I told Lebotard, you know,
when you told ESPN bosses, hey, I'm out. What did
they say? Well, I'm going to tell you this. Remember

(20:12):
this happened my contract. I mean, I'll play this was
up in March. Can you imagine a worse time for Yeah,
I mean this is when coronavirus economic panic is at
its highest. I'll tell you that HIDEOSPN hart that hideous
ben't really hard and they were having to make a
lot of choices, and at that time they definitely said
we want you to stay, We want to be able

(20:33):
to negotiate with you. But at that point it become
clear to me that the other opportunity was better for me.
I have took back to politics. I've told my more
conservative friends. I've said, listen, Joe Biden's the best possible
Democrat that could ever be hired. He's one term, he's

(20:54):
not going to be um. I don't think he's going
to be the most dynamic policy president. And in four
years Kamala Harris will be running for president. Whether that
you know, vice presidents over in my lifetime, mostly like
Mike Pence, you just don't hear from them. You just

(21:16):
don't even see them. And I've said, and my concern
because my conservative friends are not they're not fans of Trump,
but they're conservatives. And so I say to them, Um,
you know, if if if, and they would say, why
why would I vote for Biden? And I would say, well,
it's what you don't want is somebody that's dynamic, energized,

(21:39):
and fifty one Because historically, if the economy is decent,
we we go with the incumbent. It's it's generally, and
especially recently, the incumbent wins so what what do you
say to people that are not fans of Trump, have
voted occasionally on the other side of the aisle, What

(22:00):
do you think that Joe Biden presidency would look like. Okay,
it's interesting because after being an ESPN for five years,
I don't openly talk about, you know, which way I
want to vote or try to influence people. I just
want to share my ideas. But I'm moving into this world,
so let's talk a little more nakedly politicals on this.
I did not, and I think I said this on

(22:21):
first take. In other places, I did not support President
Trump in twenty sixteen, and I have them, you know,
a host of reasons for that to be the case.
But I am terrified of the direction of the country
and the direction that Joe Biden would allow this country
to go. And I'll tell you why. Joe Biden himself

(22:41):
seems like a very nice man. He's probably middle road
more than likely than that. He's a politician. He's going
to do whatever it takes to remain a politician in power.
Right and right now, Colin, on the left, there are
some very radical ideas that are no longer on the fringes.
They are taking place on the Democrat convention stage, and
they're definitely taking place in the streets of America. These ideas,

(23:04):
like the United States of America is racist to its core,
even its values and principles need to be questioned, those
being things I talked about earlier, rugged individualism, even freedom
of speech. You know, Rutgers University has said that teaching
proper English needs to be questioned, just whether or not
it is a mark of white supremacy. You can go
on and on and down the list. And these things

(23:25):
are happening across our country at the base level, in
education systems, in the halls of academia, everywhere you go.
These kinds of things are taking place, and these to
me are a real threat. What lifts us up black
white You said the radical left. Do you believe Biden
is radical? No, but I think that he will do

(23:47):
whatever it takes, and it will take in this moment
catering to that radical left. It controls the Democratic Party
right now. I believe that the AOC, you know wing,
the what's where they come so, the crew or the club,
I can't remember that group of congresswomen, congressmen that represent

(24:07):
the hard progressive wing of the Party, the Bernie Sanders
wing of the party. I do think that wing is
beginning to define the Democratic Party. Now, let me say
one two things about President Trump. One, I was wrong
about this. I've always been a libertarian, free trade kind
of guy. China's not a fair player in trade, and
I think increasingly we need to be aware that China

(24:28):
is not our friend and partner. They've sold us cheap
plastic crap for years, and before that, we trade the
way middle class American jobs. I'm from small town in Texas.
I love middle America. I don't care to be a
coastal elite. I don't care to be in New York
California elite. I love the middle of this country. And
the middle of this country got hollowed out over the

(24:49):
last ten to twenty years. And I do think President
Trump was right on trade with China. One last, by
the way, so many of US critics do, yeah, it's
probably George Soros did. Well. You know what's interesting about
that is in the past, the left was the more
restrictionist free trade party. You know, the right was more
libertarian on free trade. Let's go ahead and trade with

(25:11):
China NAFTA everything. I do think President Trump has been
proven right on a lot of that international trade stuff.
Here's the one of the the thing we've learned this in
the last couple of months. Man, civilizations are really hard
to build, and they're easy to tear down. Security, safety,
hard to build, easy to tear down. I live in

(25:32):
New York. I think I saw you tweet this other
day something about Jerry Seinfeld's Jerry Seinfeld's op ed that
New York will come back. I think you said you agreed, like, oh,
people will want to live in New York. Right, it's
too smart, It offers too much energy that eventually, over
time it's too much of a heartbeat intellectually, artistically, culturally

(25:56):
in America will come back. But right now, there's a
guy in my corner who peas into the into the building. Well,
it's always had Listen, I've been there. I've seen rats
in my bedroom. I mean listen, I've had twice gone
a hotel in New York and there was a flood
that I couldn't get down. What I'm telling you calling
is I live here. I've been here for thirteen or
fourteen years. It's taken a real bad turn, and this

(26:17):
quality of life issue, those kind of quality of life issues.
They they can become everyone's priority very quickly. And you
know Trump wants to own law and order. No more,
no more riots in the street, no more burning businesses
and buildings in Kenosha, you know, no, no, no more
rising crime in Chicago and New York and San Francisco

(26:37):
and Portland and Seattle, no more of that. And I'm
gonna tell you something that speaks to people, But the
quality of life issue? Would you not argue Covid? I
mean it's not likely I would. Yeah. I mean New York,
nobody was saying you couldn't live there nine months ago.
What has happened in that time to erode the quality

(27:01):
of life? And I would argue Covid it's so, I don't.
I don't blame that on I mean, I think there's
a radical right and a radical left. I do not
believe they have as much power as Twitter insinuates. I
do not believe Biden will cater. I don't think emit
Romney if he was president, would cater I think I

(27:22):
think we view often politics through the prism of social media,
and only twenty two percent are on it. Like I
don't think the quality of life in New York has
anything more to do with COVID, and COVID is in fact,
I'll be an optimist. I'll be an optimist here. I
told somebody the other day, we live in America. In

(27:43):
the middle of a winter. We told young people don't
go outside, and then when they did, we said, you
can't go to bars, you can't go to gyms, you
can't go to beaches. As it turned into spring, then
we said you have to wear masks, you can't fly,
and you can't go to school. And oh, buy, you
just lost your job. That's not great. I mean I

(28:04):
got kids, that's not great. Instead, what of happening was
we got overwhelmingly I'm in Los Angeles. I saw all
the outside of two burning cars in Santa Monica. We
got overwhelmingly peaceful protests. I think it could have been
far worse. I think I think COVID eleven percent unemployment.

(28:29):
I think actually, if you look at the stock market,
if you look at some of the rebounding numbers in manufacturing,
I think it hasn't been as bad as people think.
I think social media lead you to believe the countries
in utter chaos, and I tell my friends and I
talk about this all the time. Yeah, I got to
wear a mask. I can't go to bars and the

(28:50):
gyms are closed. But most people in America are still
going home and playing with our kids and laughing and
having a good life. That I think we've actually showed
some resolve during the strangest shy of a media hitting
the earth year of my life. Yeah, but look at
the rate of descent. I mean, I'd like to think

(29:12):
of myself as an optimist as well, Colin. But you know,
I just spent a month with my family taking a
road trip across America. We did the West and it
was awesome. It was Colorado, Wyoming, Montana, Utah. Yeah, I know,
you go to Utah. I mean, by the way, southern
Utah gems of this country. Yeah, I don't. I don't mean,

(29:33):
no one knows about but it's totally undersold. And I
saw people going to the grocery store and largely treating
each other with respect. I saw people who, if they
didn't believe that a mask was required in that moment,
were largely considerate of other people's beliefs and concerns. And
but that doesn't mean the country isn't headed in a
bad direction. I agree with you. By the way, social

(29:54):
media is not real life, but social media has an
outsized influence on real life. You could argue that's certainly
a yeah, you can that. That's the best argument I've
always thought is that it's not real life, but it
does have an outsized influence for what it really means. Look,
you and I both how many TV shows in radio
shows do you know that do their programming off of

(30:14):
what's happening on Twitter? I mean all of them, right
just about You don't I know what's going to watch
your show? I didn't, but I can. I mean almost
every other show would say what's trending on Twitter, and
that would be their rundown for their show. Right, So
what happens is Twitter has this outsize influence on first
institutional media, and then it clearly, as you said, can

(30:36):
influence the radical fringes, which now what we see increasingly
is those radical fringes are influencing real life by taking
to the street, by creating chaos. And by the way,
I don't think President Trump handled coronavirus. You keep going
back to how much of our current situation is attributable
to COVID and a huge I agree with you a

(30:57):
huge percentage. And I don't think President Trump handled that perfectly.
And I think many many governors and mayors absolutely fumbled
the ball. Keep among them, the mayor of New York City,
Bill de Blasio, has absolutely destroyed the city over the
past six months. Well, yeah, I think the country was
I don't live in New York, so I don't know that, um,

(31:18):
but I was a huge Bloomberg fan. I think we
were guessing. I have two friends. This is so random.
I have two friends who are on the board of
hospitals in Los Angeles and both told me individually the
same story. Everybody was guessing for two months. And then

(31:39):
the therapeutics improved, how to use ventilators improved, and the
reality of COVID now is people are in hospitals for
a shorter time, fewer people are dying. We're not guessing
as much. Surfing, yes, I do again, social media leads

(31:59):
you to believe we're all fearmongers. In the places I'm
at Park City a lot. In the places in Los Angeles,
the different communities, people are respectful, they get it. I
do think older people are a little are a little crustier,

(32:20):
But I think they have a reason to be because
I think if you look at COVID, post seventy is
a more dangerous spot. So but young people my age,
I think everybody's respectful. I've flown eleven times, yeah, eleven times,
and people have been unbelievable. The crew has been great,
no disputes, people have been just. I guess my point is,

(32:40):
I think America, I think I look at this optimistically.
It's been the strangest year of my life, and I
think overwhelmingly we have overcome our mistakes. We've had we've had,
I mean the protests because of the unemployment numbers, people
were able to protest for weeks on end. I mean
usually you go protest on a week or something will

(33:01):
and everybody's got a job. But we in America now
we have eleven percent eleven and a half percent. I
think unemployment. People are they have they have time, and
I think through all of it, there are lots. Maybe
I'm naive. I'm proud of my neighbors. I'm I think
we've I think we've overcome a lot this year, and
I think brighter days ahead. I really do. I maybe

(33:23):
I'm totally naive. Well, Okay, here's another thing. Um, Look,
you know what I was just prepared to talk about, Um,
who's going to step up at Alabama or Georgia quarterback
and whether or not they can take somebody over. I'm
sorry as this, but I'll do this as well. Um,
it's so funny, like, I don't consider myself at all
can a partisan, but I'm open about my ideological leanings.

(33:47):
So here's here's Joe Biden. He's willing to embrace a
total shutdown when it comes to COVID. If the scientists recommended, right,
and you hear that, you're like, well, that's imminently reasonable.
Defer to the experts. But which experts the epidemiologists exclusively,
is it, doctor Fauci? We're going to totally defer to
because right now the cost in this country of the
shutdowns is mounting, and it's mounting at an exponential rate.

(34:10):
Not just economically. Obviously, we know about the jobs that
are being lost. We're probably two months from businesses totally cratering,
at least in the Northeast, when these restaurants can't have
outdoor dining anymore and you can't have people inside. But
I'm telling you there is a massive mental health toll,
and you and I have found common brown because I
think I am not for a shutdown. I think this

(34:31):
is the most undertold story in America. We have a
massive mental health crisis that is unfolding, and we're not
paying attention. Don't you think you know this better than me.
I don't remember how old your kids are. My oldest
is twelve. The ones that are actually suffering the most
are the high schoolers, the teenagers, totally cut off from
their social circles, their meaning, their identity, their sports, whatever

(34:51):
that may be that gives them a reason to be
an emerging individual in the world. Now all of a sudden,
it's stripped from them. Yes, I'm may I have nephews
that are fifteen sixteen, and I have seen like people
with teenagers are feeling it the most. Yep, it's that.
This is one of the reasons I was never a

(35:12):
fan of the shutdown. I mean, you can do you
can be two things at once. I can support Black
Lives Matter, but I think the players should play. I
can be fortun do this. Can I say black lives
matter but not support capitalized black lives matter meaning that's
a political agenda with an openly stated platform, and I
disagree with it. Can I still believe the black lives matter,
but I don't have to sign up for all of

(35:33):
these other ideological positions totally run contrary. This is something
Bill Maher and I some One of my favorite things
about Bill Maher, he talks about this. It's okay to
think two things simultaneously. My wife didn't say I love
you and a second later say you drive me nuts.
I need to go for a drive. That's okay, like
I My daughter once told me she hated me, and

(35:55):
twenty minutes later she said, I'm so sorry, I love
you so much. That's called living. It's we can't hate
everybody who votes for candidates we don't like. So I
think I've never been for shutdowns. I think forty seven
thousand people a year commits suicide. I think that will double.
I think we tend to be very good at addressing
things we see or hear. You can't see mental illness

(36:19):
many times, and I think we are. I think another
lockdown is so punitive to people that are on antidepressants,
people that are lonely, young people who are trying to
find an identity, old people who don't have comfort and support.
I'm with you on that. I think it's a massive issue.
I would, I would, and I would not support a

(36:40):
lockdown from any count kind of what kind of what
you're saying is this ties both of these things together,
they ability to whole two ideas in your head at
the same time. Yes, and being opposed to lockdowns? Is
this saying it's wrong to totally defer to scientists doesn't
mean you don't believe in science. It means that a
leader has to balance eating interests. And a leader would

(37:01):
sit there and listen to the epidemiologist and also listen
to the economist and also listen to the mental health
experts and find the right solution that balances all those
competing interests. That's what true leadership is. Yeah, no, no,
we agree on that. Yeah, I don't think you know.
I I pushed back you in the first couple of months.

(37:22):
I wish you know, for the first month I was like,
let's mostly, you know, shut it down for about a
month and get our arms around this. I mean, good god,
if you can't shut a company down for one month,
and what kind of a company is it? Like you
should have reserves And then you get into a month two, three,
four or five as we learn more. I'm like, folks,
there are there are certainly places meatpacking plants, jails, multigenerational living,

(37:44):
nursing home. They're very dangerous. I'm still not. I am
still not a believer that outside in the sun, it's
easy to get. If it was California, beach communities would
be overwhelmed because the beaches have been packed for months,
and nobody in Newport and Manhattan Beach and Hermosa the

(38:06):
numbers are granular. So I still, let's go back to
a sports topic. This is what drives me nuts. If
we can have people jammed onto planes, why can't we
have nine thousand people in a sixty four thousand seat
stadium wearing masks? I don't get that. So here's where
I will profess humility. First, let's do what the players.

(38:28):
Then we'll deal with the fans. Should the players be
allowed to play. I can't remember who it was the
other day saying it was a politician saying, well, oh,
it was Gretchen Whitmer, the governor of Michigan, who's happy
that the Big Ten shutdown? Right? She said, well, football
is a very intimate sport. You face to face, you're
exchanging sweat, you're exchanging you know, common air, breathing on
each other. And she's right, but we don't know so

(38:50):
much about this virus. To this day, we know so little.
We do seem to think that among young people it
has a very very low mortality rate and isn't having
great massive health repercussion. Yeah we yeah, there is almost
no mortality rate among kids under seventeen. Right, that's right.
So I would empower individual choice. If you don't want

(39:11):
to play, you shouldn't have to play. You know, we'll
keep your scholarship for another year, wait till the same
passes you won't. It won't be punitive. But if you
want to play, let people play now. I would employ
the same thing when it comes to fans in the
stands with the with the provided information, Well, we can
socially distance this much. We can reduce because if you

(39:31):
do pack ninety thousand people in this statement, you didn't
say that, um, did you? Did you say nine? No? No? Nine? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,
yeah yeah nine, Then you don't want a massive outbreak
that you know goes out and can't be controlled. But
look at and T Stadium in Dallas holds one hundred
thousand people. Can you put twenty thousand in there at
a safe social distance? Yeah you can. Will Kin's joining us.

(39:51):
So you probably thought we were just going to talk
about games. I actually thought, because you're now at Fox,
I thought he probably wants to talk politics, so I'll
give him an opportunity to talk politics. That's why, Actually
you want to talk politics. I mean, here's I don't
mind it at all. I don't like Yeah, I don't
talk about it. Yeah, I don't talk too. I watched
politics all day. I don't talk about it on my shows. Um,
but I like talking about it. I think anything that

(40:11):
makes me think is good. Any topic it makes me
I do think. I thought you're going that's exactly how
I think. That's why sports wasn't a great lead for me.
I always love sports. I'm like, well, let me find
me angling this topic that makes me thinking makes my
endorphins fire. Same thing with politics, man, we're not that
different on this. The conspiracies and the in the food

(40:32):
fight and the left of it that never never fired
off my endorphins. It's just it never did it for me.
It does, but it doesn't work for me. All the
conspiracy stuff I was you know, right now, it's a
battle of ideas, or it should be at least, because
there's very important ideas you're all throwing at you. Here's
something I thought about the other day in a run,
So I thought to myself, there's a lot of complaints

(40:53):
among conservatives that Silicon Valley leans left, and I thought
that's interesting. So most of life I always felt Wall
Street was moderate to write. I mean, there were liberals
on it, but it was moderate to write. They never
waited for liberals, they never catered to them. They never said,
you know, it's an uneven playing field. The money is

(41:14):
mostly in conservative hands. They won the battle, the financial
battle and the intellectual financial battle. There were just a
lot of conservatives that wanted to be bankers, wanted to
be accountants, wanted to be financiers, wanted to be a
hedge fund people. Now, in a battle of ideas and
intellectual concentration, it's all Wall Streets less relevant. And what's

(41:34):
far more relevant is tech. Why should they go, oh,
you know what, we beat you to the punch and
all this stuff, and we dominate this industry our bad.
We'll give you this, We'll give you that. Wall Street
never catered play Catered never worried about the uneven playing
field when they controlled it. Why should left leaning Silicon

(41:56):
Valley feel it's Their need to allow concern is to
catch up in a space where Democrats clearly have an edge. Okay,
So first, I don't think you're right about Wall Street.
I don't think Wall Street was ever nakedly one political
ideology over the other. Wall Street was about which particular
moment preserves our ability to make money the most. They

(42:18):
would be happy to go either way. And if you
look at the leaders of Goldman Sachs in places like that,
they mostly vote Democrat. They mostly have. I'm sure there's
conservative dudes run around trade and stock on Wall Street,
but but I just think most of it's driven out
of self interest. Now is the tech industry driven out
of self interest? Is it a truly capitalist enterprise and

(42:39):
they are catering to the largest market. Well, let me
answer that question by asking you one, when you watch
sports talk, do you think sports talk right now, you know,
as a whole largely reflects where the audience is. When
you're watching ESPN or maybe even FS one one or whatever,
do you look at that and go, Wow, that's really
in touch with the majority of the audience. I don't

(43:01):
watch a lot of other stuff. To be honest, I
don't um do I I think it's way out of touch. Yeah,
I don't think. I don't think. I don't think you're
wrong with the ESPN on that I don't watch it.
I don't watch any of it. But I would say
I think I'm mostly in touch. But on the NBA issues,

(43:25):
I'm probably out of touch with Iowa. It depends. Am
I in touch with California, New York and major cities? Yes?
Am I out of touch with Iowa? Probably when it
comes to my NBA opinions. You're probably you're You're you're
an outlier. You're hard to pin down because you were
openly coastal elite. You know you love your Manhattan Beach

(43:47):
in New York, but you do you're everyman analogies which
are awesome and everybody can identify with you, know, so
you're a tough one. I wasn't really talking about you,
but when I love sports and always have, meaning I consume.
By the way, when I said that I was a
fan of yours and I learned from you, it's because
I studied you like I study everybody and how they're
doing it and what their frame is and how they're

(44:08):
approaching it. And I think the vast majority of sports
talk is colin. I'm not talking about a little bit either.
I'm talking about a lot completely out of touch with
where people are and what they want. I think there's
a lot I think. I think the newspaper sports media
is absolutely further left in America that I subscribe to. That. Yes. Now,

(44:32):
Now the reason I bring that up to you because
I say, okay, is the sports media industry responding to capitalism?
Are they responding to the market? Are they responding to
consumer demand? And the answer is quite obviously no. Now
there's a lot of legacy interests that will protect that.
But what you're also looking at, and I believe this
is the case. I'm not even talking about ESPN or
sports media now, I'm talking about corporate America in general

(44:53):
is suffering from a plague of spinelessness. I see companies
and CEOs sacrificing or bottom line. So you always believe this,
and I think it's a very rational thing to believe, like, oh,
people are always motivated out of self interested and money
is self interest? Well, you know, what's more powerful than money,
fear and the self interest that is driving corporate American

(45:15):
decisions right now is let me avoid anybody taking my
job away by canceling me or calling me a racist.
You know, I don't care if my ratings go down.
I don't care if I lose some of my audience.
I'll live to tomorrow. They're driven out of fear. I
don't think Silicon Valley is completely in touch with their audience.
I think they are ideologically leaning left. And that's how

(45:36):
some industries are. Some industry, the oil industry, that's a
great example, leans to the right right, oil and gas
leans to the right, and that's a self selection mechanism
often more than anything else. But if you truly what's
supposed to balance that out is do you respond to
your audience? And I do not think the tech industry
is responding to their audience and not saying, hey, how

(45:56):
do I bring everybody under the tent? How do I
get as big a customer base as I can? If
it's not doing that, then why are four tech companies
largely carrying the TAO for seven years? By the way,
that's a great point. I was going to bring it
up earlier when you said the stock market stuff, I
think I think the stock market stuff because of about
six stocks, isn't it? And they're Silicon Valley stocks, So

(46:19):
if they're not, because I do believe I do believe
Silicon Valley is more capitalist driven than people believe. I
think Mark Zuckerberg has proven that it's about the money.
I think I would never hold myself out as a
stock expert. One of my best buddies, so I grew
up with and went to law school with, he is
a hedge fund and he's the smartest guy I know.

(46:39):
And he and I were talking about he's look everybody
believes because we've been sitting home last six months, Zoom
is a good stock to hold or whatever it may be.
Because that's not a business proposition, that's not a value investment,
that idea, that's just a shallow observation. So like, he
doesn't believe that all these stocks that you're talking about
really have the long term value that the market has
given them. But that being said, I I'm not telling you,

(47:02):
like these tech companies don't have real value. But what
it means is there's going to be opportunity, there's going
to be opportunity. The future of capitalism is more atomized. Man,
it's going to be small companies. And you know this.
I mean your future will be one that's very interesting
to watch as mine. By the way, if the market

(47:22):
is inefficient and if it is not catering to the
consumer base, all that does is create opportunity. Look, our
colleague claytra avised out kick has seen a market opening
and I think he's very well, I said our colleague.
I guess I'm a Fox guy too. Now, yeah you are,
But I think that he's found a market that's been
completely underserved by sports media. Yeah. I think our disagreement

(47:46):
is I do believe Silicon Valley's interest is making money.
I think Larry Ellison, an oracle, likes to make money.
He certainly spends it. I think Zuckerberg wants to make money,
and I think they have tapped in to the kind
of zeit gist of what what you know. Steve jobs
old saying was I'm going to create stuff before you
know you need it. So I don't think you know,

(48:08):
people say Silicon Valley is all about ideology. I think
it's capitalism and that's why it's working Because I think investors.
And when I say I'm an investor, I being in
the market since eighty nine doesn't mean I think I'm
a boogie investor. But but when I look and I
read Barons, and I'm on getting my stuff from Morgan
Stanley every month, and uh, you know Motley Fool and

(48:30):
I read everything I subscribe to, you know, Wall Street Journal,
Bloomberg everything. I do think. I do think Silicon Valley's
all about capitalism, and I think that sometimes well, they
sell us a technological cracks that we need all the time,
and the ideology largely hasn't gotten in the way left right,
you need the new iPhone. Man, That's so I see

(48:52):
to my That's my point is, oh, I do think
they lean left, absolutely, but I think capitalism trumps it.
I think capitalism and Silicon Valley trumps their ideology. They
want to make money. By the way, never forget the
basic human reality of tech kids. They were ignored in
high school, they didn't make the football team. There is

(49:15):
a there is a capitalistic reality. Is they like compiling
and leveraging their power and wealth and and I think
it's a real thing as it is. Man. I had
a buddy the other day, who's in tech in New York,
and we were talking about I mean, this is what
I was about earlier, Like, you know, these corporations are
passing down laws like are not laws. But Edic's like,

(49:38):
we're not gonna use the word black list anymore when
we when we're going to use a company that's a
company we can no longer use. We're not gonna talk
about a master list either. We're putting all these things aside, right,
which is insane. It's just insanity that we're falling prey to.
But he told me one of them, a big tech guy,
was like, I think it's time. There's been a couple
argument we should retire the handshake. We really should. It's

(49:59):
a stupid and equal by the way, Yeah you agree
with that, Yes, yes, I grew up that a man
can be measured by it. I don't, I do not.
I am not a handshake person. I am to be
honest with you. If if we there's got to be
something invented. Uh, maybe it's the next society, the Martians
that are circling according to the Pentagon, that we can

(50:20):
have some sort of social greeting. Uh that doesn't involve
skin touch. Oh, bull Man. Oh you can't. Before you
move to Utah. We're gonna have to get you in
on this handshake. I don't know about Park City, but
firm and with eye contact. But my buddy said, my
buddy said this. Of course you're ready to get rid
of the handshake because you don't even like make an
eye contact. You would outlaw the eye contact if you could.
That's the same kit in high school you're talking about.

(50:42):
And now he has a ton of power. Yeah, so
all right, you're busy. His name is Will Caine. He's
a co host of Fox and Friends Weekends. He has
gone from politics to sports and a segue back into politics.
Not leaving sports behind man, not leaving it behind them. No,
I think it's listen, it's if Fox is really you know,

(51:02):
it's funny I tell people when I first came over here,
I said, you know the Disney umbrella, you can feel it,
and I didn't owe it. Not that I was ever
treated poorly, but I always felt there was a you
could feel the Disney pressure at ESPN. They were running

(51:23):
the company, didn't Alwah's agree with you know, certain policies.
I've never been treated better in my life than the Murdocks.
That to a lot of people, Oh the Murdocks, Fox
News trouble, And I'm like, I only judge people on
how they treat me. I've never been treated better in

(51:44):
my life by any employee. I've been doing this twenty
seven years. Best I've ever been treated. They've been wonderful
to my family. They've been wonderful for me. I was
invited to dinner at Rupert's house. They've, without getting into
too many personal things, just offered things I've never been offered.
My negotiations have been insanely fair and reasonable. So it's

(52:06):
welcome to a company that, from what I've experienced for
five years, has been very, very open um. The way
they've handled COVID social changes, they've been really remarkable. Like
it's it's I hope, and I hope. And one of
the reasons I was excited is bold. I mean, he
won't won't been to that corporate spinelessness I was talking about. Won't,
won't give in to a mob of people saying something

(52:28):
about you that's not true. We'll listen to what you
actually say it, stand by it. That's That's what I'm
I'm not saying. Disney wasn't that way either. I was
never pressured in any time to say something or not
say something. I never was um but I can already
feel the boldness in Fox. And by the way, here's
the thing. You've been all over the place on DAK
and you need somebody to tell you what's up, because

(52:48):
I mean, one minute you like him, the next you don't.
And I'm like, I don't know what I like him.
I like him personally, and I think he had he
embodies leadership skills that I think are crucial guys like
Baker Mayfield are lacking. I think he's a marginal arm talent,
a good not special athlete. And I think if somebody

(53:09):
would have offered me one hundred ten million dollars to
be the face of the most popular franchise in America
in a state with no attacks, that would have taken it. Well,
I do I agree with you in the contract. Take
the Cowboy contract. There's a lot of value and be
oh my lord, but we can we can wind us
up here with this story. I could debate you on
QBR and and wins, losses even and head to head
with guys like Carson Wins, so we could do all

(53:31):
that and Dak passes every test, but this will be
something we both agree on. Dan Orlovsky, who I like
a lot and he's a great analyst of the ESPN,
told me the story. He said he was talking to
Dan Mullen and one of the ways you measure a
leader and if you can elevate those around you is
take the ones and put him with the threes. Right,
Let's just see what happens. And if he can elevate
the threes into playing and beating the ones on defense,

(53:52):
you got yourself a gamer, a leader here, somebody who's
who's whose compound effect is greater? Perhaps and even his
quote unquot talent would suggest And Laski asked Mullen, well,
who's the best that you've ever had at that? He said,
without a doubt, it's Dak Prescott. You could put back
with the threes and the threes would beat the ones
all day long. That's good, that's good for him. Well,

(54:12):
again that goes back to a maturity. Um. I there's
a lot of like about him. It's just you know,
if you're asking me arm talent, um, evasiveness, um, quick twitch,
arm angle. I like Carson Wentz. But if you're asking
me in terms of relates to players leadership, and I

(54:33):
think that's a huge part. I don't think that's a
small component, like I think it's Uh, I think that's right. Yeah, No,
I think I think that's really good at that all right,
will Kine. I hope I didn't ask you too many
political questions. Uh, I just I'm I'm interested. So this
is the only Yeah, this is the only outlet I
can talk about stuff like that. So good talking to you. Body. Nice. Um,

(54:54):
let's grab a beer sometime. And are you going to
stay in New York? You're not coming to La not
come del staying in the northeast. We'll say about New
York City needs to get it back together. Yeah all right,
well all right, man, take care of