June 21, 2024 • 38 mins
Former NFL offensive lineman and FOX Sports Radio Weekend host Ephraim Salaam is in for Rob, and he and Chris discuss the bombshell report that Chicago Bulls statisticians juiced the stats to ensure that Michael Jordan won the Defensive Player of the Year award in 1988 and tell us if this news will change the way people view Jordan in the GOAT debate. Later, the Odd Couple Crew debate the Kelly-Matthew Stafford college dating ‘controversy’ in this week’s edition of Shop Talk. Plus, Yahoo Sports writer Tom Haberstroh swings by to discuss his investigation into MJ’s juiced defensive stats in 1988.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(00:52):
e from. At the bottom of this hour, we got
Tom Haberstrow from Yahoo Sports and also Tomthefinder dot com
on substach. One of my former colleagues back at ESPN
wrote an interesting column, more like a book.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
It was like six thousand words.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
About how in the year Michael Jordan was Defensive Player
of the Year.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Now that was nineteen eighty eight, and that is a big.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
You know, that's a big feather in Jordan's cap that
he was a defensive player of the year.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
But Tom Haberstrow is shaking that.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Feather because he says Jordan's steels per game, which were
league leading three point two that year. Word doctored Rob
explain in more.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Detail, Oh, this is catnip. If you are a Lebron
James fan, let me tell you so. Tom Aberstrow is
one of the best in the business. He has like
stuff like this all the time where he goes deeper
than even the most deepest investigative report gets nowadays. So
he was on a podcast with Pablo Torri for ESPN,
(02:11):
and one of the guys they interviewed was a statistician
from the nineties, and he said it was very commonplace
if you were the home stats guy, especially if you
were a home stats guy who actually worked at home,
because they did it remotely instead of in the building
to kind of juice up the numbers a little bit.
It was a way to pump up your best players.
Not just all over, it was all over the league.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
He everybody.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
They specifically mentioned John Stockton assists. That was the big
one that they mentioned, and they mentioned later on with
the Grizzlies the most recently Jaren Jackson Junior and all
his blockovers, that that was Reese that he was getting
some some home cooking, especially from the Memphis statisticians. But
it got them thinking about Michael Jordan's defensive player of
the Year season in was in nineteen eighty eight, I believe,
(02:57):
and that is one of the more mythical seasons because
if I recall, he was the scoring champion and defensive
player of the year.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Well, he was always a scorer.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
And nobody had ever done that, I think even.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Now, average thirty five points that year.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Right, So, that season, Michael Jordan's stock numbers, which is
steals in blocks, were eighty two percent higher at home
than they were on the road, which is the largest
discrepancy of any defensive Player of the year in NBA history.
They went and looked at game tape. They went and
(03:32):
looked at box scores. There were games where Michael Jordan's
steel total was higher than the live ball turnover total
of the opposing team.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
They specifically looked.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
At six teams in their entirety, Haberstrow and another gentleman,
and they showed during that six game that they reviewed
every single play, Michael Jordan was credited with twenty eight
steals in those six games, according to Haberstrow and his
other statistician, video evidence only showed twelve.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
Wow, so he was he was credited with how many
twixteen sixty than what.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
He actually had? Your thoughts, what are your thoughts? Ever?
Speaker 5 (04:19):
I would say it like this, that is you know,
that's crazy if it was a league wide thing, not
just for Jordan. Are the Bulls?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (04:30):
This was commonplace? Right, That's what was said by the statistician. Yes,
but then when you watched him play that year, he
clearly played both sides of the of the court, right right,
like I'm going to take the best player and you
(04:51):
can't stop me. That type of energy. So just watching
him play, and I remember, you know, all of these seasons,
my brother was a huge Bulls fan and Jordan fan,
and I hated it. I was a Laker fan. I
gotta remember that year they met in the finals, right
was that was it eighty nine?
Speaker 3 (05:11):
It was the next year they met in the finals.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
That was Jordan's first, right, so ninety one he won
ninety ninety ninety three, So.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
We were still in the reign of Laker Land in
the eighties. So just watching Jordan the way he attacked
defensively and offensively, I mean, normally, defensive Player of the
years were going to Biggs and stuff like that, but
(05:43):
you had this this guy come in and take the
league by storm, not only on one side of the
court scoring wise, but also defensively. So does it resonate?
Does it make me be like, well, he's not the
goat anymore?
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (05:58):
No, I'm good on that. Even if you take the
Defensive Player a Year award away from Michael Jordan, what
he has been able to accomplish. Uh, I'm sure he
was first team on defense that year as well, right,
So take.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
It was nine times first team.
Speaker 5 (06:16):
So take the award away, right, take it, take it away,
Just take it off the shelf. You gotta scoot all
of those trophies out the way, grab that one and
and and take it away and still look at it
and he's still the goat. Right.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Well, that's what I was gonna act because this only really,
I mean, it's important, if it's really it's true. It's
I don't doubt Haberstrow for those six games, for sure, but.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
It really only you know, it's only.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
A talking point really for the goat conversation. And I
was gonna ask.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
You where you were on that, but clearly you are
with Jordan. Is Lebron's second for you or is.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
It even look I for my money, for my money, Kobe,
I'm Kobe man. I know why. You know why Kobe
Bryant was six y six. Okay, he wasn't overly gifted
(07:18):
with height, with size, with ability in terms of jumping ability,
but he no, he can jump, he had, but Michael
Jordan had something else. Vince Carter has something else, right, Like,
so when you look at those athletic gifts, you gotta
(07:43):
take Lebron out because he just.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
He's more gifted than and speed.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
And all of that. He just won the DNA jackpot, right, Gloria,
you know, Mama Glow. You know they hit the jackpot.
And and so when you look at what Kobe was
able to do, that's all work.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Well, you got cod That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I want to ask you this because I've got Lebron's
second ahead of Coach, which I can. I didn't argue
that right, and I've got him definitely over Kobe. But
I will say this, and I want to know if
you've talked to guys too. The majority of former players
I've spoken to who have played against both.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Take Kobe.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Of course, my view is this, and then I want
to hear from you as if you've talked to ex
players and it's gotten the same thing. You played at
a very high level D one college basketball. I played
not as high of a level, but still you play
they're a guy.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
When a dude.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Offensively and defensively is coming for your throat, right, and
he's got skills, I mean right, he's athletic, and he's
skilled and he is.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Going at you.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
That is more troublesome and bother something to play against
than a guy that might be more skilled and might
be better.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
But he's not coming at you like that.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
You know what I'm saying, And I think that is
what like you you even said like nobody's really it's
hard to like. Lebron did a lot more, did more
than Kobe. I think he's a better all around player.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
But Kobe. I bet it was so.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Uncomfortable playing against Kobe in a way that it wasn't
playing again, or isn't playing against Lebron.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
I and I do have a lot of my friends
who played in the NBA long time Hall of famers,
and they will tell you it was nothing like Kobe Man,
there was nothing like Kobe Bryant, and he will walk
right up to you in your face and let you know,
(10:02):
and it's nothing you can do to stop him. Like
his drive and focus was un parallel. But I mean
they didn't even understand it. You just go and look
at that Redeemed Team documentary and they just guys who'd
(10:23):
been in the league and who were the best in
the world, had never seen anybody like Kobe, the way
he worked, the way he pushed himself, what the game
meant to him.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Well, remember there was a story, but I can't remember
who the player was. But he was coming in in
the early in the morning from the club Mellow. He
saw Kobe in like the elevator or something, and he
was coming in from the club and Kobe was going
to work out. That tells you all you need to
(10:55):
know about Kobe in that regard now. And rob g
knows this because we talked about this, and I don't know,
rob Gi, you might want to jump in because the
Jaron Jackson thing throws a bit of a monkey wrench
into my theory or my thought, because my thought, Ephrom
was that you couldn't get away with doing what and
(11:19):
like you said, it wasn't just Jordan, but stockton of
other players getting favorable statistical you know, input like stats
they didn't do put on their box score.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
You wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
You couldn't get away with that nowadays, because you know,
the game is so much more scrutinized and analyzed, and
we all see the film and they're guys tracking all
of this data.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
And so I think today's athletes.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Are the most scrutinized ever and I think Lebron's number
one on that list. And I don't know that, I
don't My thought was that you couldn't get away, Rob
g The Jared Jackson thing does throw a monkey.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
Well, no, you're absolutely right, Chris, because Haberstrow mentions it
in the column that everybody's known that the Jewe status
has been going on for a long time, like that's
not a secret. Bob Ryan even gets quoted as saying
that there were people saying back in the Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain that the rebound numbers were being juiced back then.
So they mentioned that the Jaron Jackson j Defensive Player
(12:24):
of the Year year was propped up by Homer bias
stats And because he had one of those discrepancies where
at home his numbers were better than on the road. However,
to your point, because there's so much video evidence out
there that a bunch of NBA writers and podcasters and
things like that went and checked the videotape and his
(12:45):
numbers even though he was better on the at home
than on the road, they were legitimate. He just for
whatever reason, was way better at.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Home on the road.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
So his numbers weren't. No, they weren't juiced.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
It was just the allegation that it was being juiced
because it was so much Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Oh well that that supports it. That's my thing, Ephraim.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
I don't think you could get away with this in
today's game, now, I'm with you. It doesn't put move
Jordan or Kobe ahead of I'm sorry, Lebron or Kobe
ahead of Jordan for me, but it.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Does show like even we just watched what you know what.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I'm gonna continue this thought after the break because I
got more to say on this, Ephraim, But it's the
eye couple. Chris brus or Ephraim Salaam is there for
Rob Parker. Keep it lot, Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Odd Couple
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Speaker 3 (13:41):
It's me Rob Parker.
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Check out my weekly MLB podcast, Inside the Parker, for
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Whether you believe in.
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Analytics for the I test, We've got all the bases covered.
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Speaker 1 (14:11):
All right, it's stee Add Couple, Chris Brussar, Ephram Salaam.
He's in for Rob Parker. We're live from the tire
rack dot com studios. If you're tired of feeling a
loan in your job search, with just one connection, you
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(14:32):
com to find the locale nearest you.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
That's expresspros dot Com.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
If we got Tom Haberstrow coming up in about ten minutes.
And he just wrote a great article for Yahoo this
week about how Michael Jordan's stats among others, but it
focused on Jordan in nineteen eighty eight when he was
Player of the year average three point two steals a game,
which led the league that he was given credit for
(14:58):
steals in home games that he actually didn't have. And
I want to make a bigger point about it, Ephraim,
because I talked about how today athletes could not or
even statisticians for home teams could not get away with
this because the game is watched so much more closely.
(15:19):
And I talked about how today's athletes are the most
scrutinized ever in nineteen eighty eight, if a superstar Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem,
Moses Malone, whoever missed a game winning shot on a
Tuesday night in January in Milwaukee, right, potential game winning
(15:40):
shot and they missed it, it was not a big deal. Right,
might be on the news that night. Okay, whatever, today,
If you do that on a Tuesday night in January
in Milwaukee, Sacramento, Utah, wherever, it is talked about all
all day on the other network on FS one on
(16:06):
radio stuff. Players are scrutinized to death, and I'm giving
I give today's players a lot of credit because they
have to deal with some foolishness that didn't go on
back in the day. And I laugh, eat some Yesterdyar,
don't get me wrong, were scrutinized. Michael Jordan was criticized
(16:26):
as just a one man show, a ball hog, a
spectacular offensive player who didn't know how to win all
of that until he won the championship. And what kind
of what we saw with Jason Tatum, although you know
Tatum's obviously not as good as Jordan was and not
held in his high esteem.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
But I want to give you some a few numbers, em.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And I just want us to think about if this
happened today, what these players would have to go through.
Larry Bird and I've said this one before and it's
not the only one. I'm gonna get to Magic two,
and I got Bird and Magic in my top ten.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
All time, so I'm not jumping on them. But Larry Bird. E.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Fhram in his first finals appears nineteen eighty one, which
was his second year in the league, and you know
he was great from the get go, as was Magic.
In his first Finals in games three, four, and five,
he scored eight points, eight points, and twelve points. He
averaged nine points on eleven for thirty eight shooting.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
That's twenty eight percent over a three game stretch. Let
me finish. Nineteen eighty four, Now Magic had his issues.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
I know, you know as a Laker fan, and it
was so bad that they called him tragic.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Johnson Well Bird.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
In Game seven, which Boston won to win the title,
Larry Bird was six for eighteen, twenty points, three assists.
He had three games in that series where he shot
thirty seven percent or less. Magic nineteen eighty one. You know,
(18:12):
they won the championship in eighty eighty one. They get
bounced in the first round shockingly, and I was two
out of three back then. But still Magic had a
game where he went two for fourteen, ten.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Points as they were getting bounced.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
In the finals against Philly in nineteen eighty two, he
had a ten point game, two ten point games, and
then the following year when they beat Philly that year
they I don't have that written down, but I will
(18:55):
say this, because game those games, he didn't shoot well.
He didn't shoot a lobby, didn't shoot well. The game six,
when they won it, he only this was magic, and
Magic told me this like he didn't care about numbers.
He took three shots, three shots, and I'm not saying
that in the negative. He was two for three in
(19:15):
game six, played forty four minutes, thirteen points, thirteen rebounds,
thirteen assists.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
And that was magic. That's a great illustration of magic.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
But the following year from eighty three, when they got
swept fux fo fod remember that Moses Malone. It turned
out to be full five four But magic in game two,
No Magic shot six for fourteen in the game three
for twelve in another game. Oh, games two through four,
(19:47):
six for fourteen, three for twelve, eight for twenty one.
The point I'm trying to make, I don't want to
put the legends in a negative light.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
The point I'm trying to make, though, you.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Saw the a heat that Jason Tatum caught.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
He had two thirty point games in the finals.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
He led the Celtics in scoring, reboundy and assists in
these finals, and people were destroying him. And I would
say I was defending him as like, look, he's playing
a great floor game. He's just missing shots and part
of it, Ephram, is that I know the Legends had
(20:32):
bad nights too.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
The two you can kind of like Jordan.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Rarely had bad playoff games as far as you know,
not scoring many points, Lebron after his first two finals trips,
right Dallas, and obviously say Antonio before that rarely had
bad finals games. But you look at almost every other
legend and it happened. And I'm just that's my point, Ephraim,
is that these guys are more scrutinized today than the
(21:01):
Legends ever were.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
Yeah, of course, more people are watching, more people have
a voice.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
In actual well necessarily more people have a voice because obviously,
you know you had three channels at times back then
you had a lot more. You have a ton of
people watching, but you just didn't have access to the
numbers and everything like you do now.
Speaker 5 (21:25):
Yeah, everything is readily available, and yeah, if you do
miss that shot on a Tuesday in Sacramento, you become
a meme, right like there was no memes back then, right.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Like social media. Yeah, everybody's got a voice.
Speaker 5 (21:41):
It's a different time, so people can chime in, people
can disagree, and people can can debate openly instantly.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Instance, were gonna be able to talk with Tom Haverstrow
about this around the corner.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
But first, Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk
line up in the nation. Catch all of our shows
at Foxsports Radio dot com and within the iHeartRadio app
search FSR to listen live.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
All right, thank you, Steve. We're live from the tire
right dot com studios. Our next guest writes for Yahoo
Sports and also you can check him out on substack,
Tomthefinder dot com.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
We welcome in Tom Haberstrow. Tom, how are you? We're great?
We got e from salam In for Rob Parker. And
you know you and.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
I go way back colleagues back at ESPN. You do
fantastic stuff and we were just talking about your story
on how Michael Jordan's defensive stats steals and blocks were
doctored if you will in home games in nineteen eighty eight.
First question, what did Rich, Paul and Clutch promise you
(22:56):
to write that art?
Speaker 5 (22:59):
Now we get to the bottom of it, is my man,
I'm actually representing my CLUBT so Rich is my man.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I'm just playing with you.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
But you know this is the Lebron is the goat
camp is putting your article in frames and putting it
on your wall.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
I'll tell you that.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
Well, it is something that I was cognizant of as
I was reporting, is that Lebron James has been talking
pretty much every year of his career about how he's
never one defensive Player of the Year and he's really
wanted to and he took issue with Mark Gasol winning it,
winning Defensive Player of the Year and finishing in the
(23:41):
second team All Defense, and it's something he's talked about
on the shop. And I knew that Michael Jordan's Defensive
Player of the Year award, you know, just covering the
league for as long as I have. It's one of
the most consequential, if not the most consequential Defensive Player
of the Year awards in EMBY history, because it sets
him apart. It is this crown jewel in a sense,
(24:02):
compared to Magic, compared to Kareems, compared to Lebron. They
don't have that on their resume. And so I always
knew that it was a very special award. Rudy Gobert
has a Defensive Player of the Year like it's not
necessarily the Defensive Player of the Year is held in
such highest teams it's that it's a differentiator in the
(24:24):
greatest of all time conversation. So when I had heard
that there was a nineteen nineties NBA statistician that was
admitting to cooking the books, and I said, what year
would have the most disparity between home blocks and home
(24:48):
steals and the road And I wanted to just research
this objectively, And that's when it happened.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
Guys.
Speaker 7 (24:56):
I researched it, and the guy that came on the
top of that list was Michael Jeffrey Jordan. And I
could not believe.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Yeah, that's incredible.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
Okay, So let me ask you this, and Chris and
I were talking about this earlier. Let's just say you
take Michael Jordan's defensive year Defensive Player of the Year
award away from them, right, you move all of his
trophies out of the way on the trophy case, and
you plucked that thing out of there, and then you
(25:25):
packed all the rest of the stuff back in there.
He still was first team on defense there right that year? Correct?
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Sure he was in the games you watched, Tom, did
you feel like his defense was not nearly as good
as advertised?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
And because we know steeles don't just you know, that's
not the measure of great defense. So what did you
think of his defense? Overall?
Speaker 7 (25:49):
He was an amazing defensive player. When he gambled and
it was successful, it was great. I mean, he was
the best athlete by far. It was like he was
transported from another planet. This guy. When you're watching him,
remember this is his fourth year in the league. He's
twenty four to twenty five years old, and he's just sensational.
This guy was by far the best athlete. I remember
(26:11):
watching a game two of them when he was playing
the Hawks, and you almost forgot that Dominique Wilkins was
on the floor. That's how magnificent he was on both
ends of the floor. But the problem was, and pat
Riley talked about that in the papers, and I actually
quoted it for my story. He was a very different
defensive player than Michael Cooper, very different than your standard
(26:34):
guard because gambled so much. He was a guy that
like he bet that he was going to get back
to his man in time. If you made the pass
to the open man, he was going to cheat off
in double and swiped and try to block your shot.
And a lot of times it worked, and a lot
of times it compromised the defense. And I think, you know,
we've talked about it, you know, with where his teammates,
(26:58):
whether it's you know, Charles Oakley was out there, Horace Grant,
Scottie Pippen, John Paxson, they were all out there and
they were doing great defense too. But Michael was so
much more athletic than everybody. And the thing was, I
didn't want to take away from his defense in general,
like he was a good defender, but in terms of
whether he got that many steals and got that many blocks.
(27:19):
When I watched the film, I didn't see it. And
another researcher that watched the games too, like he would
have one or two steals a game, but it wasn't
five to six, And at times he had as many
as ten that season. And of course you go when
you go and look at the I know it's create
ten in a game. When you go and you look
at the NBA official video, when they do like the
(27:41):
highlight clip of his ten steals, they only show six
of them. And that was when I was like, wait
a minute, what's going on here? And so that's what
led me.
Speaker 5 (27:49):
Down this path. Even six steals is my point being
that whether they cook the books or not, and it
was cod of like like in the article, it was
a common thing. That's just what was going on. But
just watching him play both sides of the ball, like
(28:09):
they didn't cook the books when he was scoring thirty
five a game, but just his presence and playing both
sides of the ball, his energy, to me, doesn't negate
that award because to me, playing defense like we were
talking about, is bigger than the steals, as bigger than
the blocks. It's about your presence out there and what
(28:30):
you can take away from the opposing team when they
needed the most. And that's watching Michael do it, and
then again Michael Cooper do it was tremendous at that
watching Kobe Bryant adopt that type of tenacity. So you know,
for my money, even if they cook the books, Michael
(28:55):
Jeffrey Jordan to me, and I'm not a Bulls fan
at all, a Laker guy all through and through it
just he was just different. He was just a difference maker, uh,
on the on the on the court. U And when
him and Scotty got together, I mean that was like
(29:16):
good luck.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Man, let me let me, let me ask you this
time and that's that's a great point, Ephraim. And you
you said an article like you said it was happening
in arenas throughout the country.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
John Stockton's assist.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
I don't know if you have any numbers or evidence
of how much maybe he was, you know, gifted extra assist,
but talk about Stockton and maybe a few others that
you know of. And then I want to ask you,
like when did it stop? Because I don't think you
can do that today, like the game is, you know
(29:50):
what I mean, we have so much more access to
the numbers, to the film. They're guys literally tracking all
of this data and not just the NBA, but and
you know, website guys and everybody. So what are some
of the other guys where you think this stuff was happening?
And when did it stop? And now the stats are
pretty clean?
Speaker 7 (30:12):
Great question. And when I looked at the numbers, guys,
Adam Silver's reign, excuse me, Adam Silver's reign as commissioner
is when it really stops. When he saw a really
big drop in the Homer bias, whether that's a cysts,
whether that's blocks and steals. You know, I didn't realize,
but it is subjective a lot of the blocks and steels,
(30:34):
it is subjective stats. And the guy, the statistician that
I talked to for Pablo Torre finds out over at
Metal Art Media. When I talked to him, he explained
to me that like, even like if you foul a guy,
sometimes the home stack keeper will credit that guy contesting
the shot with a block even though there was a
foul call whistled. If it was a star player, it
(30:57):
was that sort of thing, or a fifty to fifty
call where it was like man like, there was one
particular play where Mike Brown, the center of the Chicago Bulls,
the starting center. He had this amazing play, a steal
in transition and he deflected the ball clearly the one
who is, you know, influential in that turnover. And then
(31:17):
Michael picks up the ball. But Michael's the one who
gets the steal. It was those like I didn't realize
how subjective this stuff was. And if you look across history,
Bill Russell and Will Chamberlain, this is what Bob Ryan,
the legendary writer at The Boston Globe. Bob Ryan had
told me that there were allegations left and right between
(31:37):
teams and the Boston teams, and I went and looked
this up. Guys, those two guys, Will Chamberlain and Bill
Russell between them, they had twenty six games in which
they had forty plus rebounds between them. Okay, forty plus
rebounds in their career in twenty six of those twenty
six games. It was all at home.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Wow. Wow.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
Bob Ryan was telling me this, like, man, there were
trading accusations left and right between the Lakers and the
Warriors and the Celtics, and I was like, I can't
be that true. But a lot of these records, these
individual game records, a lot of them are taking place
at home. And it doesn't you can't just say, hey,
they play better at home when it's like eighty ninety
(32:26):
percent of these amazing figures are coming at home. And
so that's what when you say, you know who else
was doing this? You know? The funny thing is most
of the people in my mentions or in my comments
and whatnot are like, hey, do Stockton next? And what's
funny about that is John Stockton is leading the assist
total like all time by thousands of rs. It's not
(32:51):
like a couple hundred, but he only has five hundred
more assists at home career wise than on the road.
And so even if you said, look, five hundred were
fake or five hundred were juiced, whatever you want to say,
it still doesn't make him anywhere close to becoming the
second most in that column. So John Stockton is probably
(33:12):
next where I would look and see how many of
those might have been you know, juiced or or you know,
generously given out. But still John Stocking would be the
all time assist leader by far.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
That's Tom Haberstrow. Excellent stuff man, excellent comments, and.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Go check out the stories on Yahoo Sports and also
get on his sub stack Tomdefinder dot com.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Great stuff, Tom Man.
Speaker 7 (33:36):
Thank you you got a fellows enjoy weekend.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Yep, you are you too. Shot Talks next, a couple
of Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
the nation. Catch all of our shows at foxsports Radio
dot com and within the iHeartRadio app. Search FSR to
listen live.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
All right, we're live from the tie right dot com studios.
The A couple of time for shot talk.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
That's right, it is shots out here on the ad
couple saying when we talk about something happened outside of
the world of sports. This week's top it worth cheating
a little bit because it does involve sports in this case,
though it involves the wife of one Matthew Stafford. Kelly
Stafford was on a podcast this week and she revealed
that early on in their dating life, when they were
both in college, they were off and on, off and on,
as most college sweearts are, and during a time when
(34:24):
they were off, she started dating the backup quarterback at
Georgia to make Matthew jealous. Obviously, it ended up working
up getting happily married and they have a beautiful family now,
but it rubbed some people the wrong way. So Eve
from quickly your thoughts on Kelly Stafford going public with
(34:44):
this situationship she had in college.
Speaker 5 (34:47):
Yeah, they were kids, man, think about in your dating life,
what the stupid stuff you did to get back at
somebody or to I mean, is it grimy? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Did it work?
Speaker 5 (35:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (35:05):
You know what I mean. She talked about it like
he was out there doing this thing, right, sounded.
Speaker 5 (35:11):
Like I'm sure right, And she felt a certain type
of way. They obviously loved each other and so hurt people.
Hurt people, that's what that's that's what happens. I don't
have a problem with it. Man, they got a beautiful family. Now.
It's you know, if I think about if I think
about the stuff I did, uh back in the day day,
(35:32):
especially in college, you just go ahead that it's a
rap burn my whole college. I thank god we live.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
In an area star the big man on camp.
Speaker 5 (35:42):
He man, when we thank goodness that there is no
video footage, I would just say that no cell phones.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
I hear that.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Look, they are merry, happily long time. It's awesome. But
in the moment, what I would have been what would
have bothered me is not so much her saying this
or even you know, back in college whatever.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
I'm just gonna keep it real.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
What were y'all What were you in the backup quarterback
doing as y'all were dating, y'all just going out and
get a burger, go watch your movie, You go back
to your dorm, he go back to his dorm, or
were y'all doing much much more? That would have been
the issue for me if I was Matthew Stafford. And
(36:32):
so I'm not saying I don't know what was going on,
but there's a there are levels of dating and if it's.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Just all y'all walking around on cambus. Y'all go to
the movies.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
You want him to you need to see you with him,
but ain't really nothing happening or whatever.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
That's cool, but if it was, you know a little
more at.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
To say all that.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
But I'm but don't get around the.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Bunch, right, you know I'm wrong, right, I don't care
if y'all go out for a freaking burger kiss, have
at it?
Speaker 5 (37:04):
Kiss is okay? You know, would have been yeah, you know,
but if you're coming.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Up, it's right, it's a it's another level. You don't
need to take it to it. If you really want me,
I robbed you. I'm sure you can understand that.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Yes, I can totally understand that. But let me just
say this.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
The reason why this took off a whole mind of
its own was people were saying, oh, now he's got
to answer this question in the locker room and his
teammates and she embarrassed him. I'm like, have you ever
been around professional athletes? Especially nowadays all of these dudes
are sharing the same ten or twelve groupies. Anyways, So
the fact that his wife, that he has four children
(37:43):
with all beautiful girls that she getd someone else in college.
Speaker 5 (37:47):
I don't think it's that big if no one's talking
about it. I mean, look at it like this. Reggie
Bush was dating Kim Kardashian after the infamous sex tape,
so he could have walked into the locker room and
that could have been playing on one of the screens.
So right, guys, don't Chris Huff's married her, right, so
(38:10):
I ain't nobody tripping man like seriously, And and Kanye.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Married her like, I mean, yeah, it's all over all right, No,
that's that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Mary, Mary, you gotta.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
She's just like I would have done the same thing,
but I'm currently in college, like I would have done
the same.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Thanksture married. I mean, she got the ring and she
got everything, so props to her.
Speaker 4 (38:31):
Whoo whoo.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
It worked, It worked, all right, it's the eye couple.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
We got an hour to go on this funky flashback Friday.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Keep it locked.
Thanks for listening to The Odd Couple podcasts. Be sure
to catch us live every weekday from seven pm to
ten pm Eastern four to seven pm Pacific on Fox
Sports Radio. Find your local station for The Odd Couple
at Foxsports Radio dot com, or stream us live every
day on the iHeartRadio app by searching FSR.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Get this you're listening to Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Yes, right, we're broadcasting live from the tire rack dot
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They've got an unmatched selection, fast free shipping, free row
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Tirereg dot com is the way tire buying should be
(00:52):
e from. At the bottom of this hour, we got
Tom Haberstrow from Yahoo Sports and also Tomthefinder dot com
on substach. One of my former colleagues back at ESPN
wrote an interesting column, more like a book.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
It was like six thousand words.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
About how in the year Michael Jordan was Defensive Player
of the Year.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Now that was nineteen eighty eight, and that is a big.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
You know, that's a big feather in Jordan's cap that
he was a defensive player of the year.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
But Tom Haberstrow is shaking that.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Feather because he says Jordan's steels per game, which were
league leading three point two that year. Word doctored Rob
explain in more.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Detail, Oh, this is catnip. If you are a Lebron
James fan, let me tell you so. Tom Aberstrow is
one of the best in the business. He has like
stuff like this all the time where he goes deeper
than even the most deepest investigative report gets nowadays. So
he was on a podcast with Pablo Torri for ESPN,
(02:11):
and one of the guys they interviewed was a statistician
from the nineties, and he said it was very commonplace
if you were the home stats guy, especially if you
were a home stats guy who actually worked at home,
because they did it remotely instead of in the building
to kind of juice up the numbers a little bit.
It was a way to pump up your best players.
Not just all over, it was all over the league.
Speaker 5 (02:32):
He everybody.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
They specifically mentioned John Stockton assists. That was the big
one that they mentioned, and they mentioned later on with
the Grizzlies the most recently Jaren Jackson Junior and all
his blockovers, that that was Reese that he was getting
some some home cooking, especially from the Memphis statisticians. But
it got them thinking about Michael Jordan's defensive player of
the Year season in was in nineteen eighty eight, I believe,
(02:57):
and that is one of the more mythical seasons because
if I recall, he was the scoring champion and defensive
player of the year.
Speaker 3 (03:04):
Well, he was always a scorer.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
And nobody had ever done that, I think even.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Now, average thirty five points that year.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
Right, So, that season, Michael Jordan's stock numbers, which is
steals in blocks, were eighty two percent higher at home
than they were on the road, which is the largest
discrepancy of any defensive Player of the year in NBA history.
They went and looked at game tape. They went and
(03:32):
looked at box scores. There were games where Michael Jordan's
steel total was higher than the live ball turnover total
of the opposing team.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
They specifically looked.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
At six teams in their entirety, Haberstrow and another gentleman,
and they showed during that six game that they reviewed
every single play, Michael Jordan was credited with twenty eight
steals in those six games, according to Haberstrow and his
other statistician, video evidence only showed twelve.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
Wow, so he was he was credited with how many
twixteen sixty than what.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
He actually had? Your thoughts, what are your thoughts? Ever?
Speaker 5 (04:19):
I would say it like this, that is you know,
that's crazy if it was a league wide thing, not
just for Jordan. Are the Bulls?
Speaker 3 (04:29):
Uh?
Speaker 5 (04:30):
This was commonplace? Right, That's what was said by the statistician. Yes,
but then when you watched him play that year, he
clearly played both sides of the of the court, right right,
like I'm going to take the best player and you
(04:51):
can't stop me. That type of energy. So just watching
him play, and I remember, you know, all of these seasons,
my brother was a huge Bulls fan and Jordan fan,
and I hated it. I was a Laker fan. I
gotta remember that year they met in the finals, right
was that was it eighty nine?
Speaker 3 (05:11):
It was the next year they met in the finals.
Speaker 1 (05:14):
That was Jordan's first, right, so ninety one he won
ninety ninety ninety three, So.
Speaker 5 (05:21):
We were still in the reign of Laker Land in
the eighties. So just watching Jordan the way he attacked
defensively and offensively, I mean, normally, defensive Player of the
years were going to Biggs and stuff like that, but
(05:43):
you had this this guy come in and take the
league by storm, not only on one side of the
court scoring wise, but also defensively. So does it resonate?
Does it make me be like, well, he's not the
goat anymore?
Speaker 4 (05:57):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (05:58):
No, I'm good on that. Even if you take the
Defensive Player a Year award away from Michael Jordan, what
he has been able to accomplish. Uh, I'm sure he
was first team on defense that year as well, right,
So take.
Speaker 3 (06:14):
It was nine times first team.
Speaker 5 (06:16):
So take the award away, right, take it, take it away,
Just take it off the shelf. You gotta scoot all
of those trophies out the way, grab that one and
and and take it away and still look at it
and he's still the goat. Right.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Well, that's what I was gonna act because this only really,
I mean, it's important, if it's really it's true. It's
I don't doubt Haberstrow for those six games, for sure, but.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
It really only you know, it's only.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
A talking point really for the goat conversation. And I
was gonna ask.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
You where you were on that, but clearly you are
with Jordan. Is Lebron's second for you or is.
Speaker 5 (06:56):
It even look I for my money, for my money, Kobe,
I'm Kobe man. I know why. You know why Kobe
Bryant was six y six. Okay, he wasn't overly gifted
(07:18):
with height, with size, with ability in terms of jumping ability,
but he no, he can jump, he had, but Michael
Jordan had something else. Vince Carter has something else, right, Like,
so when you look at those athletic gifts, you gotta
(07:43):
take Lebron out because he just.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
He's more gifted than and speed.
Speaker 5 (07:50):
And all of that. He just won the DNA jackpot, right, Gloria,
you know, Mama Glow. You know they hit the jackpot.
And and so when you look at what Kobe was
able to do, that's all work.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Well, you got cod That's interesting.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I want to ask you this because I've got Lebron's
second ahead of Coach, which I can. I didn't argue
that right, and I've got him definitely over Kobe. But
I will say this, and I want to know if
you've talked to guys too. The majority of former players
I've spoken to who have played against both.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Take Kobe.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Of course, my view is this, and then I want
to hear from you as if you've talked to ex
players and it's gotten the same thing. You played at
a very high level D one college basketball. I played
not as high of a level, but still you play
they're a guy.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
When a dude.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Offensively and defensively is coming for your throat, right, and
he's got skills, I mean right, he's athletic, and he's
skilled and he is.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
Going at you.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
That is more troublesome and bother something to play against
than a guy that might be more skilled and might
be better.
Speaker 3 (09:15):
But he's not coming at you like that.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
You know what I'm saying, And I think that is
what like you you even said like nobody's really it's
hard to like. Lebron did a lot more, did more
than Kobe. I think he's a better all around player.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
But Kobe. I bet it was so.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
Uncomfortable playing against Kobe in a way that it wasn't
playing again, or isn't playing against Lebron.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
I and I do have a lot of my friends
who played in the NBA long time Hall of famers,
and they will tell you it was nothing like Kobe Man,
there was nothing like Kobe Bryant, and he will walk
right up to you in your face and let you know,
(10:02):
and it's nothing you can do to stop him. Like
his drive and focus was un parallel. But I mean
they didn't even understand it. You just go and look
at that Redeemed Team documentary and they just guys who'd
(10:23):
been in the league and who were the best in
the world, had never seen anybody like Kobe, the way
he worked, the way he pushed himself, what the game
meant to him.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
Well, remember there was a story, but I can't remember
who the player was. But he was coming in in
the early in the morning from the club Mellow. He
saw Kobe in like the elevator or something, and he
was coming in from the club and Kobe was going
to work out. That tells you all you need to
(10:55):
know about Kobe in that regard now. And rob g
knows this because we talked about this, and I don't know,
rob Gi, you might want to jump in because the
Jaron Jackson thing throws a bit of a monkey wrench
into my theory or my thought, because my thought, Ephrom
was that you couldn't get away with doing what and
(11:19):
like you said, it wasn't just Jordan, but stockton of
other players getting favorable statistical you know, input like stats
they didn't do put on their box score.
Speaker 3 (11:31):
You wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
You couldn't get away with that nowadays, because you know,
the game is so much more scrutinized and analyzed, and
we all see the film and they're guys tracking all
of this data.
Speaker 3 (11:47):
And so I think today's athletes.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Are the most scrutinized ever and I think Lebron's number
one on that list. And I don't know that, I
don't My thought was that you couldn't get away, Rob
g The Jared Jackson thing does throw a monkey.
Speaker 4 (12:03):
Well, no, you're absolutely right, Chris, because Haberstrow mentions it
in the column that everybody's known that the Jewe status
has been going on for a long time, like that's
not a secret. Bob Ryan even gets quoted as saying
that there were people saying back in the Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain that the rebound numbers were being juiced back then.
So they mentioned that the Jaron Jackson j Defensive Player
(12:24):
of the Year year was propped up by Homer bias
stats And because he had one of those discrepancies where
at home his numbers were better than on the road. However,
to your point, because there's so much video evidence out
there that a bunch of NBA writers and podcasters and
things like that went and checked the videotape and his
(12:45):
numbers even though he was better on the at home
than on the road, they were legitimate. He just for
whatever reason, was way better at.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Home on the road.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
So his numbers weren't. No, they weren't juiced.
Speaker 4 (12:56):
It was just the allegation that it was being juiced
because it was so much Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Oh well that that supports it. That's my thing, Ephraim.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
I don't think you could get away with this in
today's game, now, I'm with you. It doesn't put move
Jordan or Kobe ahead of I'm sorry, Lebron or Kobe
ahead of Jordan for me, but it.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
Does show like even we just watched what you know what.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
I'm gonna continue this thought after the break because I
got more to say on this, Ephraim, But it's the
eye couple. Chris brus or Ephraim Salaam is there for
Rob Parker. Keep it lot, Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Be sure to catch live editions of The Odd Couple
with Chris Brusar and Rob Parker weekdays at seven pm
Eastern four pm Pacific on Fox Sports Radio and the
iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
It's me Rob Parker.
Speaker 6 (13:44):
Check out my weekly MLB podcast, Inside the Parker, for
twenty two minutes of piping hot baseball talk, featuring the
biggest names of newsmakers in the sport.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Whether you believe in.
Speaker 6 (13:55):
Analytics for the I test, We've got all the bases covered.
New episodes dropped every Thursday, So do your sofa favor
and listen to Inside the Parker with Rob Parker on
the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
All right, it's stee Add Couple, Chris Brussar, Ephram Salaam.
He's in for Rob Parker. We're live from the tire
rack dot com studios. If you're tired of feeling a
loan in your job search, with just one connection, you
can find endless job opportunities. That connection Express Employment Professionals
no fees for job seekers either, so visit expresspros dot
(14:32):
com to find the locale nearest you.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
That's expresspros dot Com.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
If we got Tom Haberstrow coming up in about ten minutes.
And he just wrote a great article for Yahoo this
week about how Michael Jordan's stats among others, but it
focused on Jordan in nineteen eighty eight when he was
Player of the year average three point two steals a game,
which led the league that he was given credit for
(14:58):
steals in home games that he actually didn't have. And
I want to make a bigger point about it, Ephraim,
because I talked about how today athletes could not or
even statisticians for home teams could not get away with
this because the game is watched so much more closely.
(15:19):
And I talked about how today's athletes are the most
scrutinized ever in nineteen eighty eight, if a superstar Jordan, Bird, Magic, Kareem,
Moses Malone, whoever missed a game winning shot on a
Tuesday night in January in Milwaukee, right, potential game winning
(15:40):
shot and they missed it, it was not a big deal. Right,
might be on the news that night. Okay, whatever, today,
If you do that on a Tuesday night in January
in Milwaukee, Sacramento, Utah, wherever, it is talked about all
all day on the other network on FS one on
(16:06):
radio stuff. Players are scrutinized to death, and I'm giving
I give today's players a lot of credit because they
have to deal with some foolishness that didn't go on
back in the day. And I laugh, eat some Yesterdyar,
don't get me wrong, were scrutinized. Michael Jordan was criticized
(16:26):
as just a one man show, a ball hog, a
spectacular offensive player who didn't know how to win all
of that until he won the championship. And what kind
of what we saw with Jason Tatum, although you know
Tatum's obviously not as good as Jordan was and not
held in his high esteem.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
But I want to give you some a few numbers, em.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
And I just want us to think about if this
happened today, what these players would have to go through.
Larry Bird and I've said this one before and it's
not the only one. I'm gonna get to Magic two,
and I got Bird and Magic in my top ten.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
All time, so I'm not jumping on them. But Larry Bird. E.
Speaker 1 (17:11):
Fhram in his first finals appears nineteen eighty one, which
was his second year in the league, and you know
he was great from the get go, as was Magic.
In his first Finals in games three, four, and five,
he scored eight points, eight points, and twelve points. He
averaged nine points on eleven for thirty eight shooting.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
That's twenty eight percent over a three game stretch. Let
me finish. Nineteen eighty four, Now Magic had his issues.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
I know, you know as a Laker fan, and it
was so bad that they called him tragic.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Johnson Well Bird.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
In Game seven, which Boston won to win the title,
Larry Bird was six for eighteen, twenty points, three assists.
He had three games in that series where he shot
thirty seven percent or less. Magic nineteen eighty one. You know,
(18:12):
they won the championship in eighty eighty one. They get
bounced in the first round shockingly, and I was two
out of three back then. But still Magic had a
game where he went two for fourteen, ten.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
Points as they were getting bounced.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
In the finals against Philly in nineteen eighty two, he
had a ten point game, two ten point games, and
then the following year when they beat Philly that year
they I don't have that written down, but I will
(18:55):
say this, because game those games, he didn't shoot well.
He didn't shoot a lobby, didn't shoot well. The game six,
when they won it, he only this was magic, and
Magic told me this like he didn't care about numbers.
He took three shots, three shots, and I'm not saying
that in the negative. He was two for three in
(19:15):
game six, played forty four minutes, thirteen points, thirteen rebounds,
thirteen assists.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
And that was magic. That's a great illustration of magic.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
But the following year from eighty three, when they got
swept fux fo fod remember that Moses Malone. It turned
out to be full five four But magic in game two,
No Magic shot six for fourteen in the game three
for twelve in another game. Oh, games two through four,
(19:47):
six for fourteen, three for twelve, eight for twenty one.
The point I'm trying to make, I don't want to
put the legends in a negative light.
Speaker 3 (19:55):
The point I'm trying to make, though, you.
Speaker 1 (19:58):
Saw the a heat that Jason Tatum caught.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
He had two thirty point games in the finals.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
He led the Celtics in scoring, reboundy and assists in
these finals, and people were destroying him. And I would
say I was defending him as like, look, he's playing
a great floor game. He's just missing shots and part
of it, Ephram, is that I know the Legends had
(20:32):
bad nights too.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
The two you can kind of like Jordan.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Rarely had bad playoff games as far as you know,
not scoring many points, Lebron after his first two finals trips,
right Dallas, and obviously say Antonio before that rarely had
bad finals games. But you look at almost every other
legend and it happened. And I'm just that's my point, Ephraim,
is that these guys are more scrutinized today than the
(21:01):
Legends ever were.
Speaker 5 (21:04):
Yeah, of course, more people are watching, more people have
a voice.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
In actual well necessarily more people have a voice because obviously,
you know you had three channels at times back then
you had a lot more. You have a ton of
people watching, but you just didn't have access to the
numbers and everything like you do now.
Speaker 5 (21:25):
Yeah, everything is readily available, and yeah, if you do
miss that shot on a Tuesday in Sacramento, you become
a meme, right like there was no memes back then, right.
Speaker 3 (21:38):
Like social media. Yeah, everybody's got a voice.
Speaker 5 (21:41):
It's a different time, so people can chime in, people
can disagree, and people can can debate openly instantly.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
Instance, were gonna be able to talk with Tom Haverstrow
about this around the corner.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
But first, Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk
line up in the nation. Catch all of our shows
at Foxsports Radio dot com and within the iHeartRadio app
search FSR to listen live.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
All right, thank you, Steve. We're live from the tire
right dot com studios. Our next guest writes for Yahoo
Sports and also you can check him out on substack,
Tomthefinder dot com.
Speaker 3 (22:21):
We welcome in Tom Haberstrow. Tom, how are you? We're great?
We got e from salam In for Rob Parker. And
you know you and.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
I go way back colleagues back at ESPN. You do
fantastic stuff and we were just talking about your story
on how Michael Jordan's defensive stats steals and blocks were
doctored if you will in home games in nineteen eighty eight.
First question, what did Rich, Paul and Clutch promise you
(22:56):
to write that art?
Speaker 5 (22:59):
Now we get to the bottom of it, is my man,
I'm actually representing my CLUBT so Rich is my man.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
I'm just playing with you.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
But you know this is the Lebron is the goat
camp is putting your article in frames and putting it
on your wall.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
I'll tell you that.
Speaker 7 (23:20):
Well, it is something that I was cognizant of as
I was reporting, is that Lebron James has been talking
pretty much every year of his career about how he's
never one defensive Player of the Year and he's really
wanted to and he took issue with Mark Gasol winning it,
winning Defensive Player of the Year and finishing in the
(23:41):
second team All Defense, and it's something he's talked about
on the shop. And I knew that Michael Jordan's Defensive
Player of the Year award, you know, just covering the
league for as long as I have. It's one of
the most consequential, if not the most consequential Defensive Player
of the Year awards in EMBY history, because it sets
him apart. It is this crown jewel in a sense,
(24:02):
compared to Magic, compared to Kareems, compared to Lebron. They
don't have that on their resume. And so I always
knew that it was a very special award. Rudy Gobert
has a Defensive Player of the Year like it's not
necessarily the Defensive Player of the Year is held in
such highest teams it's that it's a differentiator in the
(24:24):
greatest of all time conversation. So when I had heard
that there was a nineteen nineties NBA statistician that was
admitting to cooking the books, and I said, what year
would have the most disparity between home blocks and home
(24:48):
steals and the road And I wanted to just research
this objectively, And that's when it happened.
Speaker 5 (24:55):
Guys.
Speaker 7 (24:56):
I researched it, and the guy that came on the
top of that list was Michael Jeffrey Jordan. And I
could not believe.
Speaker 3 (25:04):
Yeah, that's incredible.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
Okay, So let me ask you this, and Chris and
I were talking about this earlier. Let's just say you
take Michael Jordan's defensive year Defensive Player of the Year
award away from them, right, you move all of his
trophies out of the way on the trophy case, and
you plucked that thing out of there, and then you
(25:25):
packed all the rest of the stuff back in there.
He still was first team on defense there right that year? Correct?
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Sure he was in the games you watched, Tom, did
you feel like his defense was not nearly as good
as advertised?
Speaker 3 (25:42):
And because we know steeles don't just you know, that's
not the measure of great defense. So what did you
think of his defense? Overall?
Speaker 7 (25:49):
He was an amazing defensive player. When he gambled and
it was successful, it was great. I mean, he was
the best athlete by far. It was like he was
transported from another planet. This guy. When you're watching him,
remember this is his fourth year in the league. He's
twenty four to twenty five years old, and he's just sensational.
This guy was by far the best athlete. I remember
(26:11):
watching a game two of them when he was playing
the Hawks, and you almost forgot that Dominique Wilkins was
on the floor. That's how magnificent he was on both
ends of the floor. But the problem was, and pat
Riley talked about that in the papers, and I actually
quoted it for my story. He was a very different
defensive player than Michael Cooper, very different than your standard
(26:34):
guard because gambled so much. He was a guy that
like he bet that he was going to get back
to his man in time. If you made the pass
to the open man, he was going to cheat off
in double and swiped and try to block your shot.
And a lot of times it worked, and a lot
of times it compromised the defense. And I think, you know,
we've talked about it, you know, with where his teammates,
(26:58):
whether it's you know, Charles Oakley was out there, Horace Grant,
Scottie Pippen, John Paxson, they were all out there and
they were doing great defense too. But Michael was so
much more athletic than everybody. And the thing was, I
didn't want to take away from his defense in general,
like he was a good defender, but in terms of
whether he got that many steals and got that many blocks.
(27:19):
When I watched the film, I didn't see it. And
another researcher that watched the games too, like he would
have one or two steals a game, but it wasn't
five to six, And at times he had as many
as ten that season. And of course you go when
you go and look at the I know it's create
ten in a game. When you go and you look
at the NBA official video, when they do like the
(27:41):
highlight clip of his ten steals, they only show six
of them. And that was when I was like, wait
a minute, what's going on here? And so that's what
led me.
Speaker 5 (27:49):
Down this path. Even six steals is my point being
that whether they cook the books or not, and it
was cod of like like in the article, it was
a common thing. That's just what was going on. But
just watching him play both sides of the ball, like
(28:09):
they didn't cook the books when he was scoring thirty
five a game, but just his presence and playing both
sides of the ball, his energy, to me, doesn't negate
that award because to me, playing defense like we were
talking about, is bigger than the steals, as bigger than
the blocks. It's about your presence out there and what
(28:30):
you can take away from the opposing team when they
needed the most. And that's watching Michael do it, and
then again Michael Cooper do it was tremendous at that
watching Kobe Bryant adopt that type of tenacity. So you know,
for my money, even if they cook the books, Michael
(28:55):
Jeffrey Jordan to me, and I'm not a Bulls fan
at all, a Laker guy all through and through it
just he was just different. He was just a difference maker, uh,
on the on the on the court. U And when
him and Scotty got together, I mean that was like
(29:16):
good luck.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Man, let me let me, let me ask you this
time and that's that's a great point, Ephraim. And you
you said an article like you said it was happening
in arenas throughout the country.
Speaker 3 (29:27):
John Stockton's assist.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
I don't know if you have any numbers or evidence
of how much maybe he was, you know, gifted extra assist,
but talk about Stockton and maybe a few others that
you know of. And then I want to ask you,
like when did it stop? Because I don't think you
can do that today, like the game is, you know
(29:50):
what I mean, we have so much more access to
the numbers, to the film. They're guys literally tracking all
of this data and not just the NBA, but and
you know, website guys and everybody. So what are some
of the other guys where you think this stuff was happening?
And when did it stop? And now the stats are
pretty clean?
Speaker 7 (30:12):
Great question. And when I looked at the numbers, guys,
Adam Silver's reign, excuse me, Adam Silver's reign as commissioner
is when it really stops. When he saw a really
big drop in the Homer bias, whether that's a cysts,
whether that's blocks and steals. You know, I didn't realize,
but it is subjective a lot of the blocks and steels,
(30:34):
it is subjective stats. And the guy, the statistician that
I talked to for Pablo Torre finds out over at
Metal Art Media. When I talked to him, he explained
to me that like, even like if you foul a guy,
sometimes the home stack keeper will credit that guy contesting
the shot with a block even though there was a
foul call whistled. If it was a star player, it
(30:57):
was that sort of thing, or a fifty to fifty
call where it was like man like, there was one
particular play where Mike Brown, the center of the Chicago Bulls,
the starting center. He had this amazing play, a steal
in transition and he deflected the ball clearly the one
who is, you know, influential in that turnover. And then
(31:17):
Michael picks up the ball. But Michael's the one who
gets the steal. It was those like I didn't realize
how subjective this stuff was. And if you look across history,
Bill Russell and Will Chamberlain, this is what Bob Ryan,
the legendary writer at The Boston Globe. Bob Ryan had
told me that there were allegations left and right between
(31:37):
teams and the Boston teams, and I went and looked
this up. Guys, those two guys, Will Chamberlain and Bill
Russell between them, they had twenty six games in which
they had forty plus rebounds between them. Okay, forty plus
rebounds in their career in twenty six of those twenty
six games. It was all at home.
Speaker 3 (32:02):
Wow. Wow.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
Bob Ryan was telling me this, like, man, there were
trading accusations left and right between the Lakers and the
Warriors and the Celtics, and I was like, I can't
be that true. But a lot of these records, these
individual game records, a lot of them are taking place
at home. And it doesn't you can't just say, hey,
they play better at home when it's like eighty ninety
(32:26):
percent of these amazing figures are coming at home. And
so that's what when you say, you know who else
was doing this? You know? The funny thing is most
of the people in my mentions or in my comments
and whatnot are like, hey, do Stockton next? And what's
funny about that is John Stockton is leading the assist
total like all time by thousands of rs. It's not
(32:51):
like a couple hundred, but he only has five hundred
more assists at home career wise than on the road.
And so even if you said, look, five hundred were
fake or five hundred were juiced, whatever you want to say,
it still doesn't make him anywhere close to becoming the
second most in that column. So John Stockton is probably
(33:12):
next where I would look and see how many of
those might have been you know, juiced or or you know,
generously given out. But still John Stocking would be the
all time assist leader by far.
Speaker 3 (33:24):
That's Tom Haberstrow. Excellent stuff man, excellent comments, and.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Go check out the stories on Yahoo Sports and also
get on his sub stack Tomdefinder dot com.
Speaker 3 (33:35):
Great stuff, Tom Man.
Speaker 7 (33:36):
Thank you you got a fellows enjoy weekend.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
Yep, you are you too. Shot Talks next, a couple
of Fox Sports Radio.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in
the nation. Catch all of our shows at foxsports Radio
dot com and within the iHeartRadio app. Search FSR to
listen live.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
All right, we're live from the tie right dot com studios.
The A couple of time for shot talk.
Speaker 4 (34:01):
That's right, it is shots out here on the ad
couple saying when we talk about something happened outside of
the world of sports. This week's top it worth cheating
a little bit because it does involve sports in this case,
though it involves the wife of one Matthew Stafford. Kelly
Stafford was on a podcast this week and she revealed
that early on in their dating life, when they were
both in college, they were off and on, off and on,
as most college sweearts are, and during a time when
(34:24):
they were off, she started dating the backup quarterback at
Georgia to make Matthew jealous. Obviously, it ended up working
up getting happily married and they have a beautiful family now,
but it rubbed some people the wrong way. So Eve
from quickly your thoughts on Kelly Stafford going public with
(34:44):
this situationship she had in college.
Speaker 5 (34:47):
Yeah, they were kids, man, think about in your dating life,
what the stupid stuff you did to get back at
somebody or to I mean, is it grimy? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (35:03):
Did it work?
Speaker 5 (35:04):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (35:05):
You know what I mean. She talked about it like
he was out there doing this thing, right, sounded.
Speaker 5 (35:11):
Like I'm sure right, And she felt a certain type
of way. They obviously loved each other and so hurt people.
Hurt people, that's what that's that's what happens. I don't
have a problem with it. Man, they got a beautiful family. Now.
It's you know, if I think about if I think
about the stuff I did, uh back in the day day,
(35:32):
especially in college, you just go ahead that it's a
rap burn my whole college. I thank god we live.
Speaker 3 (35:39):
In an area star the big man on camp.
Speaker 5 (35:42):
He man, when we thank goodness that there is no
video footage, I would just say that no cell phones.
Speaker 3 (35:50):
I hear that.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
Look, they are merry, happily long time. It's awesome. But
in the moment, what I would have been what would
have bothered me is not so much her saying this
or even you know, back in college whatever.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
I'm just gonna keep it real.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
What were y'all What were you in the backup quarterback
doing as y'all were dating, y'all just going out and
get a burger, go watch your movie, You go back
to your dorm, he go back to his dorm, or
were y'all doing much much more? That would have been
the issue for me if I was Matthew Stafford. And
(36:32):
so I'm not saying I don't know what was going on,
but there's a there are levels of dating and if it's.
Speaker 3 (36:38):
Just all y'all walking around on cambus. Y'all go to
the movies.
Speaker 1 (36:41):
You want him to you need to see you with him,
but ain't really nothing happening or whatever.
Speaker 3 (36:47):
That's cool, but if it was, you know a little
more at.
Speaker 5 (36:53):
To say all that.
Speaker 3 (36:54):
But I'm but don't get around the.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Bunch, right, you know I'm wrong, right, I don't care
if y'all go out for a freaking burger kiss, have
at it?
Speaker 5 (37:04):
Kiss is okay? You know, would have been yeah, you know,
but if you're coming.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
Up, it's right, it's a it's another level. You don't
need to take it to it. If you really want me,
I robbed you. I'm sure you can understand that.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
Yes, I can totally understand that. But let me just
say this.
Speaker 4 (37:23):
The reason why this took off a whole mind of
its own was people were saying, oh, now he's got
to answer this question in the locker room and his
teammates and she embarrassed him. I'm like, have you ever
been around professional athletes? Especially nowadays all of these dudes
are sharing the same ten or twelve groupies. Anyways, So
the fact that his wife, that he has four children
(37:43):
with all beautiful girls that she getd someone else in college.
Speaker 5 (37:47):
I don't think it's that big if no one's talking
about it. I mean, look at it like this. Reggie
Bush was dating Kim Kardashian after the infamous sex tape,
so he could have walked into the locker room and
that could have been playing on one of the screens.
So right, guys, don't Chris Huff's married her, right, so
(38:10):
I ain't nobody tripping man like seriously, And and Kanye.
Speaker 1 (38:13):
Married her like, I mean, yeah, it's all over all right, No,
that's that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
Mary, Mary, you gotta.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
She's just like I would have done the same thing,
but I'm currently in college, like I would have done
the same.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
Thanksture married. I mean, she got the ring and she
got everything, so props to her.
Speaker 4 (38:31):
Whoo whoo.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
It worked, It worked, all right, it's the eye couple.
Speaker 1 (38:36):
We got an hour to go on this funky flashback Friday.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
Keep it locked.
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