The Penguin

SPOILER FREE for 33 minutes - Let's talk about the 'The Penguin'


Created by Lauren LeFranc and Starring Colin Farrell, Cristin Milioti & Rhenzy Feliz - 'The Penguin' follows the events of The Batman (2022), Oz Cobb, a.k.a. the Penguin, makes a play to seize the reins of the crime world in Gotham.



Who stole the show?  Should there be a second season?  Was it missing anything?


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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Mac. I had a great open for the show that
you poop pooed. So last second, I'm going to ask
you what do you want to do to start the show?

Speaker 2 (00:07):
Uh? Goo, I would like you to tell me what
you're rushmore and we'll get back to this in the episode.

Speaker 1 (00:14):
One second, what is a mount Rushmore?

Speaker 2 (00:17):
So, if you're new to the program, here, a mount
Rushmore is the four nicest looking people on the planet.
And then once you determine that, every year, you carve
it into a mountain.

Speaker 1 (00:27):
Did you just come up with that?

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah? Just made that up. Okay, So if you're new
to that, people's hottest person on the planet every four
years gets put up there. I like that, Goo, You're
Mount Rushmore of comic book television shows. Now take a breather,
think about it for a little bit. I'll give you mine,
and then maybe you can jump back into here with.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Your live action or animated.

Speaker 2 (00:51):
It's up to you. I would say, give me including animated.

Speaker 1 (00:55):
So I already have three off the top of my mind,
and yes they are all Batman, but Batman the animated series.

Speaker 2 (01:02):
Oh I guess you'll go first.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
Yeh, Batman Beyond the Harley Quinn Show and then X
Men ninety seven done.

Speaker 2 (01:08):
Okay, those are your four. I would go twenty nineteen's
Watchmen on HBO.

Speaker 1 (01:14):
That's a great one.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, I think Loki season one is on there. X
Men ninety seven is on there, and then I would
probably go Batman the Animated series for my fourth. And
I ask you that, gu because today we are discussing
possibly an entry into that Mount rushmore so I think
it's relevant.

Speaker 1 (01:32):
Hashtag Kim Kardashian, can you come back to me real quick?

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Cool? You got an addend amendment on yours?

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Yeah, Daredevil belongs on there, Loki does WandaVision. How many
can I put on there?

Speaker 2 (01:47):
If you notice in the notes here I said, I'm
I was considering maybe Jess Jones season one, and then
I said, Aku, maybe Daredevil.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
For Daredevil for me is definitely on there.

Speaker 2 (01:58):
So if you if you had to go too and
two two animated, two live action, what's you're four?

Speaker 1 (02:02):
So it's Batman the Animated series. I would take X
Men ninety seven over the original, and then we go Daredevil.
And here's the issue that we run into is that
is the sum of Loki both season one and two
better than the one season of one division for me.

Speaker 2 (02:21):
Here we go. Actually, I almost forgot this even though
I wrote it down. Watchman twenty nineteen.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Oh, Watchmen as well, and the Boys, the Boys, Oh,
the Boys. Okay, so just throw the Marvel stuff off.
I'll keep Daredevil, the Boys and then the two animated series.

Speaker 2 (02:35):
Okay. Well, let's see if our approach approaching conversation has
anything to do with the top four here.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
Oh wait, oh this show here. I like the penguin
as well. Let's put that at the top and slid
everything else down.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
Bang one good, three yeah, jos three, King of Queen
mall Street.

Speaker 1 (03:09):
Entertained.

Speaker 2 (03:10):
I'm go and I'm Mac.

Speaker 1 (03:12):
What a great open by you. When's the last time
you've actually done anything?

Speaker 2 (03:16):
Long time?

Speaker 1 (03:16):
I know because I was actually I was thinking about
it earlier. I'm like pre show wise, Mac generally does
seventy five percent of the work. You're a very good
pre show. You do a lot of the notes. It
gets prepared. I usually do the open and Mac sack
and then anything post. Plus, I bring my award winning
personality to this program. That's people. People love me. People

(03:40):
love my opinions on witches. They love how I'm out
there and putting myself out there. I'm never on the
fence about anything.

Speaker 2 (03:47):
I think you've got to create a shirt that says
witches get stitches.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
That's a good one, it's not bad. But I also
want to want to run into a real witch and
then have them put a put a spell on me
or any Yeah, I wouldn't.

Speaker 2 (03:59):
Want that type of situation.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
That is not witchcraft. That is what is it called
the pincushion.

Speaker 2 (04:05):
With the Yeah, i'd tell you that's witchcraft.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
I thought it like New Orleans. What is that called?
It's like the bay you?

Speaker 2 (04:12):
Yeah? Did they do a whole season of American horror
story about witches of the Bayou?

Speaker 1 (04:16):
Didn't they?

Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (04:17):
I don't know. It's I'm not going to google. I
don't want to google.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
It's called the Beignets.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Beignets are delicious.

Speaker 2 (04:24):
Beignets are delicious.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
All right, that's our show, Okay.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
Folks, Today we are discussing what ign dot com gave
a five out a ten television show that is The Penguin.
The Penguin is a TV M, a gangster tragedy crime
in drama, eight episodes. Totally I did. I forgot to
get the minutes there, but they were roughly our episodes.

(04:49):
Finale was a little longer, so we probably had about
eight hours of programming, maybe a little less. You take
the credits in the in the and whatnot out uh
go on Roddy T's five percent from the critics, ninety
two percent from the audience, and on Metacritic a seventy two. Now,
I think that is, at least from my perspective how

(05:09):
I'm sort of feeling about this show baseline extremely likable.
But I think that's seventy two on Metacritics sort of echoes.
At least. What I'm maybe feeling is it didn't quite
hit those high highs of some of the past great covers.

Speaker 1 (05:24):
Is in seventy two really high though.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Seventy two is pretty good for sure, but for example,
twenty nineteen is Watchmen eighty five.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
So I would also I think that Watchmen, while I
like the Penguin better, I would say because I love
these characters, I love Batman, and I love the idea
of doing more stuff with characters like this on HBO,
Watchmen probably is a better show.

Speaker 2 (05:47):
Well, and it's sort of it was set up to
be that way too, right, because this is a show
in between two movies, whereas Watchmen was its own thing,
and so it's more satisfying.

Speaker 1 (05:56):
It's David s.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Pumpkins gained, and so I guess it's maybe a little
unfair to the penguin. But also, when you're talking about
all time great shows, these are the types of hairs
you kind of have to split. Yes, So I'm interested
to hear how you received the final couple episodes of
this show and how the people have because early on
there was a lot of talk about maybe this could

(06:18):
be the greatest comic book show ever in the conversation
for it, and to me, I don't think it quite
got there, but I still thought it was fantastic.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
I'm not sure if I would put it on my
rush more, but it is right there.

Speaker 2 (06:30):
I think it's like firmly a tier below for me.
I just don't think it hit the high high.

Speaker 1 (06:35):
Is that a show that we're going to do soon
Comic book tears, Comic book show tears earber. Maybe we
do owe the people at least one tiering by the
end of the year. They're pretty upset about Octierbers.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
That's fair. And if you're tuning into this program and
have no idea what this show is attached to. This
was I guess what's it called? When it's like, God,
really I should know the word, and I'm forgetting like
an attachment to something post something not a preamble but

(07:07):
something like that, but post. You know, you know what
I'm talking about. This is an add on to The Batman,
which came out.

Speaker 1 (07:14):
It's a sequel series.

Speaker 2 (07:15):
It's a yeah, came out in twenty twenty two. I
believe it was The Batman, and this show was never
really meant to be when that movie came about, and
then as they were developing this world, this Gotham, they
sort of stumbled into this and this ended up being
something that I think was certainly a worthwhile endeavor and

(07:36):
broadened the universe and I think something they're gonna continue
to do and also serves as like an appetizer and
a lead into the second movie.

Speaker 1 (07:44):
Yeahp. But the one thing that I'm not a huge
fan of is it took us two years to get
this show. It's gonna take us two more years to
get the Batman movie. I hope that they're able to
not rush, but at least like get into the next
show a little bit quicker than the amount of space
between the Batman and the Penguin.

Speaker 2 (08:03):
I agree the Batman two should have been this year.
The Penguin should have been last year. Give me one
a year and that would would be more appealing, I
think for.

Speaker 1 (08:10):
Me, even if it's every three years. Actually yeah, because
they're gonna start shooting The Batman two in twenty twenty five.
So even if there's three years between the movies and
then somewhere nestled in between is a television show.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
Cool, Well that's what we got here. I would like
that condensed a little bit more.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
No, because The Batman Too isn't gonna come out until
twenty twenty six, right, Oh.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
Yeah, you're right, you're right correct. As I was gu
the creator slash showrunner of this show is Lauren la
front I think it's just Lefrank, but I like saying Lafran.
You would know her as a writer on the show Chuck,
which I've ever seen an episode of, but was somewhat popular.
She was also a writer on Agents of Shield and
something called Impulse that has decent grades. I don't know

(08:54):
what her connection was to this universe or to Matt Reeves,
but for someone that had never been a showrunner, or
at least to this magnitude. I thought this show was
really well done, amazingly well written. She was a writer
on the show as well. And that's really I think,
and that's a credit to Reeves for starting this universe
in the first place. But the writing and the character

(09:15):
development this show was unbelievable.

Speaker 1 (09:17):
I also think for having eight episodes, like that's a
real good number of episodes. They don't really waste any time,
and everything on the show has a purpose.

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, he will get to that in a few but
like borometer wise, you are pretty well gripped. Yeah, most
of these eight hours. It wasn't too many wasted moments
in here, if any. So they did a wonderful job.
Synopsis of The Penguin, following the events of the Batman
Oz Cobb aka the Penguin makes a play to seize
the reigns of the crime world in Gotham. Pretty good.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
Yeah, pretty good. It's pretty concise.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
It doesn't mention two of the other main characters, but
it's good enough to sell you right.

Speaker 1 (09:57):
Yes, I mean Gotham is I would say there's four
main characters. Gotham is one of them.

Speaker 2 (10:02):
Okay, no, that's fair that's definitely fair go. This show
stars Colin Farrell as Oz Cobb Slash the Penguin, of course,
reprising his role from The Batman, Kristin Miliati as Sophia
fl Cone aka Sophia Gigante. And before we get any further,
this was her show as good as Colin fara and
Ferrell is is Oz Cobb. You almost not cares is

(10:24):
not what I'm meaning. But she is so good she
becomes the like the eye of the storm, the center
of the show here.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Yeah. So if they do and they are gonna do
another show with another villain of Batman, another Rogues Gallery character,
like I'm so curious, like not who they choose for that,
but who they shoehorn in there as the secondary character
that we're gonna fall in love with.

Speaker 2 (10:47):
Yeah, it's gonna be hard to live up to Kristin Miliati,
that's for sure. Renzie Felise plays Victor Aguilar aka Vic,
and the showrunner Lafrant describes Vic as the heartbeat of
this show. I think that's pretty apt to. I think
he is more the common man. We're more going through
it the way he is.

Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, and a lot of outlets and I agree with this.
They describe his character as the Penguins Robin.

Speaker 2 (11:13):
Yep, yeah, that's I think that's kind of dumb down.
But that's good enough. That's good enough. I think Dardrew
O'Connell as Francis Cobb Ozit's mother Carmin and Jogo as
Eve Carlo the swearter, love interest slash friend of a Yeah,
theo Rossi is doctor Julian Rush, which will have a
little thing on him and spoilers. Clancy Brown as Salvatore

(11:36):
Maroney who was named in The Batman, but we didn't
see him on screen. The one thing I'll say is
Clancy Brown is almost always a little too much for me.
He's he's just he's a little too much for me.
But Michael Kelly is Johnny Vetti who gets tied up
in this er so jealous of that, and then go

(12:00):
gets some cameos. No spoilers here, uh, people we saw
from The Batman. Mark Strong plays Carmine Falcone. He replaces
John Touturo because John Totro I think was shooting uh
severance instead of this, and he was good, you know,
it's it's fine. He was only the way. I agree.

(12:20):
I agree because Mark Strong was almost too mean. Totro
wins you over a little bit, a little more playful.
Craig Walker is Detective Marcus Wise. We saw him as
one of the correct policemen in the movie. He comes
back in here and does a very nice job. Con
O'Neill as Chief Mackenzie bach Goo's favorite character in the
whole universe. Hey, what are you doing? Your family?

Speaker 1 (12:45):
What are you doing Sophia?

Speaker 2 (12:47):
And then we get a couple couple scenes in here
with Jamie Laws and Asbella real who is the mayor
elect as we've seen at the end of the batmano
Laura lefranc again the show I'm gonna keep saying her
name as often as I can describes this show primarily
as a tragedy. I know there are other themes in

(13:07):
whatnot that are picked up in this, but it's hard
not to agree with therk because this really is by
the end of it, this show really is a tragedy everything.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
So, first off, all oz Ever wants on this show
is validation, and that is from everybody, and he will
say anything to anybody to get what he wants. And
he almost just keeps on making up his own rules
for himself as he goes where by the end of it,
yes he gets what he wants, but he doesn't. It's

(13:39):
like tragedy. He's there, but the way that he is,
he thinks that he has finally appeased certain people, but
his mind, his mind is warping, like the reality to
the point of like nothing that he actually set out
to do is there, but in his mind he's like, yeah,

(14:00):
I did it.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Best part about this show, what makes this show so
fucking awesome is the dichotomy between Oz and Sophia and
where they're at. Certain points are at the same level.
One goes up, one goes down, the back and forth
and where they all end up, and ultimately it works
really well because one is striving for what the other has, yeah,

(14:22):
and the other one that has it doesn't want that,
trying to get rid of that, trying to get away
from that, and that this vicious cycle of that is
really what makes the show go.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
It's also the great rags to riches story where it's
almost like when a poor person comes and like wins
the lottery and then they just buy a bunch of
shit and like rich people are like, oh, this is
still really like Sophia calls everything in his apartment tacky
and trashy and stuff. But then when he has like
people that aren't from high society, they're like, oh, this

(14:51):
is really nice stuff.

Speaker 2 (14:55):
Uh good. I mentioned at the top, and we've this
has been a top conversations surrounding this series. When this
series was first conceived, Matt Reeves began thinking about this
series during post production of the first movie. The original
plan once he was getting going with this Penguin stuff

(15:15):
was to have the story that we saw play out
over these eight episodes essentially be the first act of
the sequel. But he didn't really know how to put
that together. And before he had even put pen to paper,
HBO had approached him and said, hey, like, we're looking
for a show from your universe, is there anything like
can you give us anything? Like don't save all the
good stuff for the movies, And he started talking about

(15:36):
this ODZ story and it was actually an HBO executive
named Casey Bloyse he's the CEO, was like, that's it,
that story, that's the show. So credit to HBO and
HBO always does this, but credit for them to them
for finding the niche here. This in between that worked
so well.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
And yes, is this similar? Is this character similar, say
to a Tony soprano? Sure? Sure, everything is similar to
everything nowadays.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
Yeah, and when you're talking gangster crime, mob movies, you're
never gonna have a new idea. It's just not possible.
So you know, I guess there's appropriate critiques there. But
having that set with the backdrop of Gotham and in
a Batman universe, obviously it plays it up a little
bit more gout before we get too deep into things,

(16:23):
just to make the timeline clear. Actually the timeline is
not clear, but to figure out where we're operating is
the first episode takes place about a week after the
end of the movie, a week after the flood and whatnot.
And then in that in Batman's final monologue of that movie,
he says, it's Wednesday, November sixth, and I have to

(16:44):
think what takes place over our eight episodes. It has
to take place over a couple of months of time frame.

Speaker 1 (16:49):
Do they celebrate Thanksgiving on this show? Did they?

Speaker 2 (16:51):
It's a great question. I didn't see a Thanksgiving episode
in there, but some of the timelines and some of
the shit we see, there's no way could have happened
over a week or two weeks and had to been
a few if not a month or two, So that's
pretty unclear. I think we'll get a more stable timeline
once we get into the second movie. Maybe we're like
end of December and New Year type of situation. Now,
and this whole show gets kicked off and we get

(17:12):
introduced to the ful Cone family in this show, because
not only was Oz tied in with him, but in
the first.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
Of the entire Falcone family we obviously meet Carmine in
the battle.

Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah right, obviously Oz is tied in with them anyways.
But why this becomes an odds and fl Cone story
is because in the first fifteen minutes of the show,
and it's what sort of ropes she in, Oz kills
Sophia's brother Alister.

Speaker 1 (17:34):
Yeah, and it's all because, and this is what I
love about it, he made fun of him, Yeah, to
a t.

Speaker 2 (17:40):
It's really what Oz is and what Oz has been
fighting against his whole life, this idea that he's not
good enough. Yes, and when he gets belittled by Alberto,
he snaps, And that's that little character trait that really
defines who Oz is.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
I also love the way he walks.

Speaker 2 (17:58):
Yeah, it's perfect. I don't I don't know how how
many different walks he tried. The way Carl Farrell does
it is perfect.

Speaker 1 (18:05):
I think it was the end or the beginning of
episode five they show him walking away from a car
and it's like really exaggerated and like, that is a
fucking penguin. It's great, it's a penguin. This also has
a lot to do with class warfare as well.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
Yeah, which I think also is like pretty well tied
into like mob stories, people trying to be made men
or work their way up the ladder. That has a
lot to do with class warfare, and especially with the
fallout from the Batman, how the shittier the poor areas
of town aren't getting attention and the rich areas.

Speaker 1 (18:37):
Are so two things there. Number one, they start a
lot of scenes by showing off the bridge that separates
the rich and the poor and Gotham, and then they
also show a lot of starting with like a skyline
and then going down like four or five levels to
really show how low the penguin is here.

Speaker 2 (18:55):
Yeah, you know what, The bridge shots and things like
that always remind me of Yeah, I don't know if
if you remember this or know anything about Rio de Janeiro,
but this was especially underlined when they held the Olympics
there or World Cup something like that. Rio is pretty
famously known for literally just sectioning off the poor area
with a gigantic wall, so thirty feet away, rich Highway

(19:19):
whatever behind that, it's all poor and slums. And they
build Gotham out in a pretty similar manner in this world.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
I also think so. I think Christopher Nolan did a
pretty good job of it. But this show and the
movie has done the best job of building out like
a rich like you understand Gotham.

Speaker 2 (19:37):
I think already one movie's worth. And of course the
show Gotham is more central to this story than it
ever I know, I'm summarizing what you're saying, is more
central to this story in this universe than it ever
was in Nolan's.

Speaker 1 (19:52):
Yeah, well, I think Nolan did a pretty good job.
I think Burton didn't really focus on it, Schumacher, I
can't even think back to anything Gotham wise besides, like
the motorcycle races and Coolio in the streets. The animated
series did a pretty good job as well too, But
oh up, credit where credit is due the first Joker
movie does a pretty good job as well.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
Agreed, I'll agree with you on that for sure. Definitely.

Speaker 1 (20:15):
I guess that's the end of the podcast. We gave
a compliment to Joker. Let's get to the I've nonagone here,
Mac and fun factor. There is a lot of I think,
the backstabbing on this show because to sum up the
penguin in one word is weasel. He is a weasel.

(20:38):
You can't trust. It's just called weasel. You can't trust
a word he is saying to anybody.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
The double talk. He's always whatever he says is never
the truth.

Speaker 1 (20:49):
He's a true hype man. He's trying to hype everybody up,
but he doesn't believe any of it, or maybe he
does and he just goes back on it.

Speaker 2 (20:55):
He's constantly cupping the balls.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
That's all he's doing.

Speaker 2 (20:59):
Good to that point, this show has a lot of
fun with come up and revenge. Like that's the fun
factor in this show. The anticipation of someone you fucking
hate getting theirs. That's a lot of what drives the
fun behind this show.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
Satisfactor and I was extremely satisfied with not only how
the show ended, but the entire eight episode run.

Speaker 2 (21:24):
I think everything surrounding Sophia for eighty percent of this
season is incredibly satisfying. Watching her become Sophia Jigante is great.
I do feel like the last couple of episodes did
not satisfy me enough when it came to the Oz
stuff or the overarching Gotham stuff number one, because it

(21:48):
was pretty obvious where they were going and number two,
which we'll get in more so in spoilers. There is
a glaring, glaring hole in all.

Speaker 1 (21:57):
Of this, so I think that maybe you aren't adding in,
Like I think the relationship with his mother is extremely
satisfying and how this character is gonna be. And I
also think that moving forward in the next movie or
when he shows up again, he's gonna be a completely
different character. He's not gonna be as like, you know,

(22:20):
low level, uh, low class. He's gonna be a little
bit He's gonna fit in more with society.

Speaker 2 (22:27):
Gou, I hear you, And I'm not saying you're wrong.
I'm just saying all this stuff with his mother was
established really early, and you had a pretty good idea
of where that was gonna end up. So by the end,
all I know.

Speaker 1 (22:38):
Not with her feelings on the boy.

Speaker 2 (22:41):
Ah, you knew that was gonna crack at some point,
you knew that was coming.

Speaker 1 (22:45):
No, And then also how he responds to it is
the best.

Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah. I I to me like that was sort of telegraphed.
But that's if if it worked better for you, that's fine.

Speaker 1 (22:54):
I'm not gonna say it shouldn't you calm me, stupid.
I think we should both start acting like the penguin
moving forward is that whenever you perceive like you're being
slighted in the littlest just fucking attack the other person.

Speaker 2 (23:08):
Just shoot the other person.

Speaker 1 (23:11):
By the way, and this has nothing to do with
the penguin. I was watching an interview with Steve Carell
earlier and someone asked him about the improv scene on
the office where he kept on pulling out a gun,
and he said that when I was at Second City,
there was someone that always did that and we thought
it was the funniest thing, and the teacher one day
had to ask him for all of his guns.

Speaker 2 (23:32):
The teacher in that scenes ken Jong, right, I believe so,
or he's in the class. That's so good. Michael Scarrn.

Speaker 1 (23:40):
Barometer. I was not bored.

Speaker 2 (23:42):
No, I it is. My gripes with this show really
don't have anything to do with Barometer Halloween.

Speaker 1 (23:49):
Will this show wanne over time? I don't know how
much of a rewatchable show this will be, maybe going
back to pick up on some of the Sofia stuff,
because I think that she's gonna play a bigger role
moving forward too much Like when I was watching this,
I had to go back and rewatch The Batman once again.

(24:09):
So maybe it's just when something new comes out, it's
just picking up more of these breadcrumbs as they're leaving behind.

Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, I don't know if there's gonna be much rewatchability here.
And part of that goes into my overarching critique is
that it does lack this satisfying conclusion or this big
pants tent moment like that was satisfying that it sort
of needed at the end. It doesn't make the show
like it doesn't really diminish the show because it had

(24:36):
to fit in a window. But again, when you're looking
for something to go back and rewatch, there's not a
ton here.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
O quater World. Is this television show better than the
nineteen ninety five hit movie, Yes, it was profitable. Water
World indeed it is, although it is dealing with a flood.

Speaker 2 (24:57):
Is water World in the DCU, Well.

Speaker 1 (25:00):
I know that Aquaman is very similar. That's true, Max
credit Union. Who are you giving credit.

Speaker 2 (25:07):
To so obviously Kristin Miliatti, Christine Milliod. I still don't
know how I've heard it both ways. That's a podcast.
It's a good one, overarching though it and it echoes
the Miliati stuff. Whoever is in charge of casting in
this universe and especially for this show nailed it, fucking

(25:27):
crushed it. Every character, even down to characters when they
saw a couple times during the season, were so good
and then the big players all absolutely demolished it. The
casting amazing.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
Who is the mobster that Oz looks up to? What's
his name? The guy's got a real sour puss.

Speaker 2 (25:46):
In the Falcone family.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
No, no, when he's a kid, Rex you're talking about? Yes, Rex,
thank you? So like plemenade wise, I think he'd be
someone that would be a candidate. But like you're talking about,
like the casting and this, like even I thought he
was great in the episodes that we go and you
picked up on like why someone like Oz would idolize
this person and then want to be this person.

Speaker 2 (26:06):
Yeah, it had a little bit of a broxtail to it. Yeah,
now as you can't leave like that moment was something
that really resonated with Oz.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
I'll give him plemonade, because when life gives you plemons,
you make plemonade. We only saw him for roughly He
was in two ish episodes, and he wasn't like a
big character in those episodes, but I know you have here,
dear Day O'Connor, who plays Deirdre.

Speaker 2 (26:28):
Deirdre O'Connell really nailed that. Deirdre O'Connell is Francis Cobb,
the mother fuck that. I'd say the main three had
too much screen time to really do Plemonade. And she
was probably in five or six of these episodes, but
she's only in a few scenes per episode. She did
an incredible job. And there's also a whole like, you know,

(26:48):
mental things she's got going on, some sort of dementia
type of situation, and I thought she did a really
good job conveying that.

Speaker 1 (26:55):
The writing on that as well is very good and
the storytelling all that. I forget which episode it's the
one where Vick is watching her and you see all
the post it notes around to remind her to do stuff.

Speaker 2 (27:04):
And she would end scenes. She would go from clear
all their alert and oriented to jumping back. She'd have
these episodes. It's a very specific kind of dementia that
they depicted in this I forget what it's called, but
I thought it was really good and the actress did
an amazing job.

Speaker 1 (27:20):
Oh also give credit too, because I hated this character
and I'm like, this feels like a real person. That
kid squid, Yes, yeah, I was like, oh fucking blow
this guy's head.

Speaker 2 (27:31):
Yeah yeah, yes, please.

Speaker 1 (27:33):
Pants ten City, Excite Mike Mania. What on this show
got you going?

Speaker 2 (27:38):
Pretty clearly, Sophia tying people up was all I ever
needed her yellow dress in That was that episode four
when the come up and sappens for the Falcons. That
was probably the high point of the season. Great moment
for the character, But I must admit this show did
lack a true standout moment, true stand up scene, and

(28:01):
I think that's maybe what we'll keep it from being
talked about as one of the all time greats.

Speaker 1 (28:06):
I think it was Pete Blackburn from the What Chaos
podcast that said he would love for Kristin Miliatti to
put out a cigarette on him.

Speaker 2 (28:14):
Couldn't agree more. I'm pretty sure. I retweeted that.

Speaker 1 (28:17):
I think the end of episode four, where she gets
her revenge is pretty good.

Speaker 2 (28:21):
Awesome, Yes, great, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
For those of you tarty to the Mac and Goop party,
we rate everything on a forty hot dog rating system.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Mac.

Speaker 1 (28:30):
First off, big ups to everyone involved on this show
for having a show, a Gotham show with no Batman,
a Batman show with no Batman, and still being wildly entertaining, gripping,
great characters, taking its time, and not to take jabs

(28:55):
at other people, but like, take note, Sony Verse, take note.

Speaker 2 (29:00):
Joker, It's possible to do these things.

Speaker 1 (29:02):
It's possible to do these things. So that's the big thing. Yea.

Speaker 2 (29:05):
All that said, we'll get into Yeah, we'll talk that complicate,
it does.

Speaker 1 (29:11):
But Colin Ferrell's amazing in this. I think he is
such a good penguin. And yes, it does come off
a little bit more as like a joisy guy that's coming,
and but I think it works well for this character,
especially when we think of like where Gotham might be
in America. I think his mother is amazing in this.
Chris and Miliatti steals the show. The episodes that are
dedicated entirely to her, you'd be saying, wait a second,

(29:33):
this is in the Batman universe and it's called the Penguin.
Where are these characters. We don't need them. We have
Sophia fl Cone, we have Sophia to Jagante, and probably
episode four, which is her episode where they do that
is the best episode of the season. All the mobsters,
they're all different and each gang has a different personality.

(29:56):
I love that about the show too. The kid who
played Vic is very good in this. You understand why Penguin,
who's dealt with stuff with his foot his whole life
and not being not wanting to be looked down upon,
goes with Vic, who has a starter, and he kind of,
you know, sides with him, and he understands that like
people kind of look down upon him as well. They're

(30:16):
also both they both grew up with nothing and they've
kind of built to where they are now, and Penguin
wants to help him continue to build up even further
than that. I really love this show. There is something
that I do think takes away from where they're located,
not even the storytelling, because you don't need Batman but

(30:39):
you need the fear of Batman, and I don't think
the fear of Batman was here.

Speaker 2 (30:46):
That's that's for sure.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Thirty seven hot.

Speaker 2 (30:48):
Dogs, Okay, Yeah, I'm in the same range as you. Gou.
Like you said, the acting fantastic. The world they build
or build out underneath this world, the lower levels of
Gotham is great and really is going to help the
movies going forward and help you know, Oz become this

(31:09):
Penguin villain going forward. I think, though, the two biggest
things that bother me here is number one, the thing
hanging over this whole Gotham that we'll expand upon. But
the Batman stuff, the more you think about it, the
more it starts to hurt the show. Now, I'm not

(31:31):
too sure people were thinking about it in the moment,
but by the end of the season it had become
a pretty pretty reasonable discourse online.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
I texted you telling you all this, and you're like,
you're making too big of a deal out of this,
And I don't want a nitpick. I think this is
a wonderful show. It is, but when you're in Gotham
and you have streets exploding, whole city blocks, something's got
to give.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
Yep. And it wasn't even the end of the season,
so he had plenty of time to pop up. He
doesn't even need to show up. You just need a
batsy clock. Yes, couldn't agree more so. I think that
puts a damper on the whole thing overall. And that
lack of like standout scene in the second half of
the show I think hurts it a little bit. And
I also think the show sort of became a victim

(32:17):
of its strength the character development. Sophia becomes such an
amazing character it almost hurts the show because it's not
it's not her show.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
No, where she ends up is such a good place,
though I agree.

Speaker 2 (32:32):
I'm not talking about that. I'm saying because her character
became so great, I cared less about Oz and where
he ends up.

Speaker 1 (32:39):
Yeah, but you also so if you want.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
To I'm not. I'm all I'm saying is she is
so good. It sort of took away from the stuff
because I cared less about him.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
But if they went into this saying we want to
tell this sofiafl Cone story, but they can't go to
HBO and be like, hey, we have this Sophia fl cones.
I agree, you needed at least to have the penguin
who is a recognizable character. I'm not Batman at.

Speaker 2 (33:06):
Least as Don't get me wrong, I'm mora killed the
show for me. It just hurt it a little bit,
a little bit so good. I think I'm at thirty
six hot dogs. Okay, I think it's just a tear
below greatness, really really fucking good. Borderline loved it, loved
most of the show most of the season, like episodes three, four, five,

(33:28):
six were great, that the middle part of the season
was great. I just have a hard time. And this
goes into the Halloween stuff. It's hard to remember or
have that great love affair with the show when it
doesn't end on the high that it achieved in the
middle of the season. So that's that. Let's get into
spoiler spoke.

Speaker 1 (33:45):
Can I just mentioned one thing in spoilers So we've
already mentioned a couple of times here that the show
just it needed not even like, say, if the penguin
thinks too highly of himself that he'll be caught by Batman.
Maybe he's and he's already run into Batman, but say
it if he thinks so highly of himself that he's like, Okay,
I'm not gonna get caught. I don't even need to
think about him, his cronies, the people working underneath Sophia,

(34:08):
under Maroney Street. Then you should at least be like, hey,
what if he shows up? That's the only line I needs.

Speaker 2 (34:15):
It was not apparent, and to your credit, two weeks
ago you texted me about this whole Batman plot hole
in this whole series. I started to think about it
a little bit, started seeing it, but more online. I
didn't rewatch The Batman until after I had finished the season.
I'm glad I waited. Fifteen minutes into The Batman, I
texted you and I said, oh boy, the Penguin's got

(34:36):
a Batman problem, because fifteen minutes into that show, Jim Gordon,
who we don't see in this show that's a detriment,
puts the bat signal up for Batman, and over the
course of the next thirty minutes they specifically talk about
how those two put the Maronis behind bars so directly
ties them into this mob, this crime story that Oz

(34:57):
is tied into, and it really really hurts the end
of this show that Batman does not pop up or
is not mentioned.

Speaker 1 (35:06):
It just I'm mentioned.

Speaker 2 (35:08):
Isn't in there in those last couple episodes. Having it
come up at the very end made no sense, and
it just bothered me because it was like, Okay, they
just threw it in there to please the fans. The
bat signal should have come up weeks before that, way
before that, and especially in episode seven when a whole
fucking city block gets blown up. That that was it,

(35:28):
right now?

Speaker 1 (35:29):
That was That was the breaking point for me, because
they had done a very good job establishing that Oz
was really good at working underneath everything and keeping everything
as quiet as possible, but he's also someone that wants
the spotlight and wants people to know what he's doing,
So he might be someone that also wants Batman to
know what he's doing too. Yeah, even in the movie

(35:51):
he mentions the Batman, you know my reputation, right, and
he's proud of it.

Speaker 2 (35:55):
The fact that Oz is at once even just shuddered
by the fact that the bat that man might appear
is bothersome when you rewatch the movie or remember what.

Speaker 1 (36:03):
Happened in the opening scene of the movie, not like
the Riddler stuff for him investigating. When they show the
lower level goons doing crimes, they're all looking over their
shoulders because Batman's been doing it for a year and
he's been beating the piss out of people.

Speaker 2 (36:18):
It's really bothersome. And also Gordon not popping up is bothersome,
especially when he's tied into the mob stuff. That's a
secondary thing to Batman.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Are we being poopy pants fan boys right now? No?

Speaker 2 (36:29):
No, No, it's a big thing. It's a big thing.
And again we scored the show still super high. But
it is a big thing hanging over this show because
like all you had to do was even have the
bat signal in the background. It may pretend like he
was doing something else. There was bigger fish to fry
at the time, but they don't mention him. It's not
in the back and just throwing it there at the
end just to like, huh, tolgays here. That pissed me off.

Speaker 1 (36:53):
There was another Easter egg as well, not even an
Easter egg, but like something that they should have mentioned
in there is when so Fia was learning about the
women that her father killed. Yeah, they should have had
Selina Kyle's mother in there as a I hint toward
the letter that she gets at the end of the show.

Speaker 2 (37:12):
Yeah, and then there's also this whole thing where the
police are investigating the Falcone deaths, this big thing you
probably would have called in Gordon and or Batman there,
that's part of it. I don't know, it's just I
don't it doesn't make sense secondary to that go And
of course Reeves this in lefranc have been asked these questions.
I think it's more a Reeve's question than is Lefron,

(37:33):
because she was just given a task to make this
show in between the movies. Reeves said and I quote
that introducing Batman crossing in would mess with the narrative
of the show, and with Oz, I think it had
an adverse effect. I think not having him cross in
at all sort of messed up the narrative of the
show and of Oz. It did. It didn't make sense,

(37:55):
it didn't jive, and I'm just bothered by it. I
think we're harping on this because the show could have
been even better, and it's just something that's lingering in
the minds of almost everyone that watched this show.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Outside of the well being of his mother. He had
no fear in this show, right, right, and.

Speaker 2 (38:13):
He's clearly fearful of the Batman in the movie. So
it's just those two things, those two ideas can't coexist.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
Okay, we're really sorry about that. This is a really
good show. It's a very good show.

Speaker 2 (38:24):
Very good. Let's get to the finale.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
Good Okay.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
We find out at the beginning of this finale that
Francis Oz's mom was going to have her own son
Oz killed by Rex once she figured out he was
responsible for her two other sons death. That's pretty fucking dark.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Yeah, really, And I love how obsessed with his mother
they made him in this show.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
And it's a real Oedipus complex.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
It is, and all he wants. His goal the entire
time we learn of it, I think at the end
of episode seven, is to put his mother in the
highest building in Gotham. We're she can look over the city,
and it's one of those you finally have time, you
can read all the books, but your glasses break. She

(39:10):
is no longer able to she's no longer able to move,
she's she had a stroke. She's not really there, and
he's not She's not able to enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (39:21):
What he worked for.

Speaker 1 (39:22):
Oz is able to put her in the highest room
in Gotham, where she's able to look out, but she's
not able to enjoy it.

Speaker 2 (39:29):
But because I actually that go ahead, that's he is
purposefully putting her through that torture because of what she
says to him in this finale episode.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
I don't think so. I think that he's I think
he's doing it because no, but he always wanted to
get her approval and he always wanted her love. And
he's like, this is what I summis to you, and
this is what I promised you, and you pretty much
said that if I do this, you're gonna love me.
And while she wasn't able to talk, he had the

(40:01):
prostitute dressed as his mother.

Speaker 2 (40:03):
Yeah and bizarre, but to that point, I think part
of that why he's showing her and keeping her alive. There, mom,
I did it. But now he's bragging about it because
she also doubted him, which is what he finds out
in this episode. Now he's sticking it to her. He's
not he's not show.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
She did not doubt him. She wanted him dead. She
fucking hates him.

Speaker 2 (40:22):
She said that, yeah, but didn't believe in him, and
that is revealed in this episode.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
That's pretty me beyond doubt and not believing she wanted
him dead.

Speaker 2 (40:32):
I know, but Oz doesn't find that out until this episode.
So I think that that culmination her on the hospital
bed on the eighty seventh floor, I think is him
his last laugh to her, him sticking it to her.
I do like that that club that they show Monroe's
Club in the past and the present, that plays a
big role on this That was a nice little setting.
I am so so so glad that Sophia fal Cone

(40:54):
didn't get killed. Where she ends up back in Arkham
is so much better and so much worse for her character.
I loved that scene. She was ready for death, she
was accepting death. Fine, do it, I'm over it. I'm
happy where I am. I'm happy with who I've become.
And instead she's going back to Arkham. And on top
of it, all of that exonerates Oz from everything, and

(41:17):
it's a quote unquote a fate worse than death. She's
going to hell, She's back in Arkham.

Speaker 1 (41:22):
I could have used a better Easter Egg at Arkham,
like a character than Magpie.

Speaker 2 (41:29):
Sure, I don't even know who that is, but.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
You know what, maybe a young doctor named Harley and Quinzel.

Speaker 2 (41:38):
Well, I do think there is some some people are
a little over the joker Harley Quinn thing. So I'm glad.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
I'm saying more like, she's not Harley Quinn yet, she's
just the doctor there.

Speaker 2 (41:47):
Yeah, sure, sure. We get a couple of snippets here
of Bella Reale. You know, they're at the courthouse or whatever,
at the whatever, which is nice because you know she
has a decent relationship with Bruce in the movie. So
that'll I'll come back to Goose Point. Oz thinks he's
made out like a bandit in this finale, comes to
find out his mom has begun a carrot. She's a vegetable.

(42:10):
She's not She's not able to really enjoy anything in
life anymore. She's essentially brain dead. She's there, but she's not.

Speaker 1 (42:18):
And she made a point either episode one or two
being like, don't let me get to this point. Kill me.

Speaker 2 (42:25):
Yeah, and this all plays in that's that was in
you know what I'm I'm thinking about sort of stumbling
upon now when I think about it in my head.
Ultimately this ruins the series of Dexter. But in Dexter
Final ruins Dexter when Julie Ben's gets killed. That was
the last tether Dexter had to being a human being

(42:48):
in this The last tether that Oz had was his
mother and the well being of his mother. And what
happens in the first scene after he finds out his
mother isn't there, he kills Vic. And what a visceral
seeing that as it was heart wrenching, obviously emotional. I
think we all start coming, right, we all knew this
was the end game. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (43:07):
The first thing he says is you're like family to me,
and then he Moid is him.

Speaker 2 (43:12):
Well, that's what Oz is realizing.

Speaker 1 (43:14):
He can't have family, That's what he realized.

Speaker 2 (43:16):
Yeah, he realizes Vic is a weakness for him, the
way his mother was someone that could hold him back.
And the extra thing there is I think also Oz
is a little worried that Vic is too similar to
him and eventually Vic might try to overthrow him the
way Oz did with all the people of authority in
his life. So it was twofold. There a very very

(43:37):
visceral scene and really shows you he becomes the penguin
in this moment. Right, he was Oz and now he's
the penguin.

Speaker 1 (43:43):
He starts going.

Speaker 2 (43:46):
And then he fucking robs him afterwards.

Speaker 1 (43:49):
That was the best part of it, though brutal. Thanks
for the twenty bucks, kid, I can go get some
slush puppies.

Speaker 2 (43:57):
We see Sophia back in Arkham and what's his face?
Doctor Julian Rush comes in with a letter addressed to
her from her half sister, and go call me a
fucking moron. I completely forgot It's a major part of
the Batman and I hadn't rewatched it.

Speaker 1 (44:15):
I know that you don't like listening to me, but
I mentioned it on a news dump roughly four weeks ago.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
Yeah, I wasn't paying attention. I completely forgot that her
half sister is Selena Kyle. So Selena Kyle shoots her
a telegram at Arkham, and I guess this is a
pretty decent storyline in the comics, so they're gonna obviously
play with this. I would be surprised if Selena doesn't, like,
maybe try to break Sophia out of Arkham or something

(44:45):
like that. That'd be kind of interesting to see going forward.

Speaker 1 (44:48):
Maybe there is a lawyer that can help them, maybe
a da Maybe there is a RV.

Speaker 2 (44:55):
Dent hey, hey, And again, compare these or contrasting these
two characters as we talked about Oz is seeking the
way that people look at Sophia in this world the hangman.
Oz is seeking that and Sophia is trying to get
away from it. It's a great back and forth. And
then secondary to that, Oz has learned he wants no family.

(45:18):
But by the end of this Sophia is like comforted
by the fact that she still has family left. Yes,
she desires that, she seeks that, and it's just funny
to see how these two are thrown into the same
blender and they end up in completely different spots.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Really like that how at the end of episode four
when she murders her whole family and she embraces being
the hangman and she stops wearing stuff around her neck
and then you have like the the little things around
her neck. She's not afraid to show him off anymore
because if that's what people want, that's what she'll give them.

Speaker 2 (45:49):
And I also like like because in that scene, what
she's realizing is they aren't her family that might be
by blood, and that's why she goes by Jigante after that.
They weren't her family members, they just happened to be
related to her, So that that's why that episode was
the best episode of the season, and that's why Sophia
Falcone is the best character in this show. Good We
get as he walks into this whatever one hundred and

(46:12):
four penthouse, he's holding the top hat, puts it down
next to the umbrella, and we see he's wearing the
tuxedo as well. He's in his full penguin ensemble. They
don't really beat you over the head with it, but
it's a nice little nod to what the character generally
looks like.

Speaker 1 (46:26):
In the comments, I wanted him to pick up an
umbrella to shoot someone. And then it opens and there's
a carousel on there and he says, ah, a trick umbrella.

Speaker 2 (46:36):
We get to the final scene with him and Eve
and him and his mother. Eve is wearing his mother's dress.
It's a very bizarre scene speaks to how insane Oz is,
and again Oz gets everything he wants wants ultimately, but
it's a tragic end because he works so hard to
get where he has and now his mom can't even

(46:57):
reap the benefits of it. All his loved ones are
dead ye and it's just him and Eve has this quote,
nothing's standing in your way now, and then we get
the bat signal.

Speaker 1 (47:08):
Right, And he also something that he always wanted was
that he wanted to be like Rex, and he wanted
the admiration and the love of his.

Speaker 2 (47:17):
He wants to be like Sophia.

Speaker 1 (47:18):
Well, he wanted to be more like Rex. He wanted
the admiration and the love of his community. He wanted
to be the person that everyone goes to. But he
also made the point of like he's cut ties with
everybody now and he hasn't quite gotten that. So he's
using you know, his female friend there to just just

(47:40):
tell him what he wants to hear in his warped
mind of what he now believes the world is.

Speaker 2 (47:46):
Yeah, and going forward here, I guess we'll start with
the Oz stuff. I think it's pretty clear with him
in that scene in the courtroom, in the Mayor's chair whatever,
they're going to pursue this whole Mayor Penguin, mayor ODZ
storyline that's popped up a couple times before, and I
think that definitely lays the groundwork for Court of Vowel stuff, right,

(48:07):
Like that's gonna have to.

Speaker 1 (48:08):
Play any buy like, yeah, Batman three or a show
or something like that.

Speaker 2 (48:12):
Yeah, maybe in between but I think you'll get the
groundwork laid for that in the second movie. Dude. One
of the biggest questions or theories online is that doctor
Julian Rush, who we see help Sophia and still his
kind of helping Sophia at the end, You're not quite
sure is he gonna be a meaningful character going forward.
There were some Scarecrow talk right away, but I think

(48:33):
I think you might be on to what he really
is gonna be.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Yeah, so I think that he might be the Mad Hatter.
I think that they're gonna go a little outside the
box here and just not use all the same Christopher
Nolan characters as well. But the Mad Hatter is a
master hypnotist, which we see in most of the episodes
here with him, he has those red red lights that

(48:57):
people kind of thought, oh, that's like a fear talks
and no, it's.

Speaker 2 (48:59):
It's not giving Scarecrow at all.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
No, he's a Gotham City adversary of Batman. Jarvis Tech
is the character's name. He's delusional and believes that he
is the incarnation of the Hatter from Alice in Wonderland.
But they could also kind of make that more of
a reality thing where he believes that he's something more
than he is. And I know in certain comics or

(49:25):
in the Batman the animated series, he obsesses over a
woman named Alice. You could just substitute that with he
obsesses over Sophia.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
Yeah. And we've already seen this universe change names a
little bit. We've seen it in the Spider Man movies.
You know, mj isn't Mary Jane. Like, I'm perfectly fine
changing names of most characters. It doesn't fly to me
too much.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
Actually, Julian Rush not that far off. We're looking syllables
with Jervis Lush. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
Close. Another thing people were talking about online, and I
don't really subscribe to this because I think it's pretty
definitive at the end there people were wondering if vic
is one hundred percent dead again? This is a comic
book franchise. After also, is anyone really dead to me?
I think so yes, But they think he could come
back and play something down the line.

Speaker 1 (50:11):
Yeah, because people were saying of Victor Zaz but was
that just because of his name?

Speaker 2 (50:16):
Probably? Yeah, yea, that makes sense. And then of course
we get this Sophia Selena storyline that's brewing and I
think I think for sure what we'll get the groundwork
laid for in the second movie and maybe see in
a second show is Sophia Selena's stuff or maybe that
comes up in the movie, and then Oz and court

(50:37):
of Owl's type of stuff more more of the politicking,
behind the scenes stuff of Gotham that we haven't seen
too too much yet.

Speaker 1 (50:44):
I don't know. I think that you could do and
we're gonna get to this more on your sack, but
I think that you could do an amazing job with
a character that we have seen many times, but given
eight episodes, Harvey Dent, you could really flesh out that character.
Like think to the Dark Night. We we got a
lot of Harvey Dent, not a lot of two face.

Speaker 2 (51:04):
The only thing I'll say to that, Ku and this
will we will have to see who the villain's going
to be in the second movie. But I don't want
to happen, which happens a ton in third movies of trilogies,
as them throw like eight villains on the last movie
because there's so many people in play, so they sort
of have to concentrate, you know, pick a couple of
lanes here. They can't do too much. Well.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
No, but even if you have a bunch of villains
that you show in the shows or like even to
show for a second in the movies, they don't have
to be central characters to the movies.

Speaker 2 (51:32):
No, I know, but once you introduce them, you kind
of have to sort of see that through.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
No, because if you do a ton of Harvey Dent
and then you end two face and then you just
put them in Arkham, then you're all set.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
Well, then you're like, why did we even do this?

Speaker 1 (51:45):
Well, if you're giving me more Sophia fl Cone, I'm
gonna take it.

Speaker 2 (51:48):
Sure, sure, all right, God, I don't think we need
to run through episode by episode. I think we kind
of hit everything.

Speaker 1 (51:53):
No, but I will mention I do love the slush
puppy stuff from the first episode end.

Speaker 2 (51:58):
Of the first episode. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:00):
I do like the flashbacks to Arkham with Sophia in
her episodes.

Speaker 2 (52:05):
That was episode three or episode four.

Speaker 1 (52:07):
Actually, I also love seeing her breaking point of when
she's like, fuck it, I'm gonna start killing people. Vic's
crown point backstory was very good, and then also when
he took the penguin's mom there and she's like fuck
him back and Crown Point. Are we serious right now?

Speaker 2 (52:22):
I think too there could have been born here. But
because they wrote the characters so well, we were so
invested in these characters that all this backstory stuff and
all this flashback stuff really worked. We see that done
in other shows that it doesn't work because you don't
care about the characters, but it worked for this show.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
Two things. Actually, there's a really good in Crown Point.
You can see where the water level was, like where
it hit with like the discolorations on the buildings and
on the houses there. And then also I love how
if there's a big crowd of people, kind of like
a protest, you'll see random posters for the Riddler in there.

Speaker 2 (52:59):
Yeah, still a thing.

Speaker 1 (53:00):
Episode four is the best of the episodes. I would
say Episode five has the cooking with Maroni and Sophia.
He makes that delicious egg plant soup.

Speaker 2 (53:10):
I believe it was the most fotherly experienced she had
ever had, which was which was nice for the character.

Speaker 1 (53:15):
Episode five I believe kills Squid I Hate Squid might
be episode six actually, I think.

Speaker 2 (53:20):
I think it was, uh yeah, somewhere in there when
Vic just gets sick of him and finally shoots some
of the face.

Speaker 1 (53:27):
And then I believe Episode five is when him is
when Oz and Vic finally cut ties. Come Actually, episode
three is when he cuts ties with Sophia because uh
Vic hits the Marony's and leaves Sophia for dead pream.

Speaker 2 (53:41):
They jumped the flashback at the at the end of
episode three. Beginning of four, episode five, Oz has TikTok. Well,
TikTok's on the phone. I don't know if Oz has TikTok.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
I was like a check out my scroll. He starts
scrolling through by dance. Uh oh the drug Layer. I
love how he goes his drug layer is where he
killed his brothers.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
Yeah, that's a really fucked up thing. We already harped
on it again. I guess no one really knows where
the bat Cave is, but seemingly building your drug layer
in an underground tunnel system where Batman is lingering is
a bad idea.

Speaker 1 (54:17):
I also love when Maroney dies and Oz is like,
you fuck, I'm supposed to kill you. Don't die of
a heart attack.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
And then he shoots him like three times. Oh. Here's
the big thing with the timeline that I really felt
like it had to have taken place over a couple
of months. So he gets that underground layer and what
are we maybe a week two weeks into the show,
it cuts to later the whole layer is filled with
mushrooms that had to have taken weeks to grow all
that shit. So this show for sure had to have

(54:47):
taken place over like six weeks to two months. And
if it's any less than that, I'm gonna have a
hard time believing the timeline here I am.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
I think we're good. I think we're good. On Yeah,
I love the show. I enjoyed it greatly, but mentioned Batman.
Please let's get into Maxack and Mac Sak could be
anything that could be a boat, and we will look

(55:17):
at what is coming up in this universe. What did
Matt Reeves say? Mac?

Speaker 2 (55:23):
Of course, coming off our award winning Figy says, we're
here with Reeves says Goo. Reeves says The Penguin Season
two is now being discussed. I think this began as
a one off mini series, and now I think because
people like this show so much and because there's more
story to tell, they're beginning to discuss the second season

(55:46):
of this. I ask you, do we need it? Do
we want it.

Speaker 1 (55:49):
I don't know if I need it. I think I
would prefer getting other characters. Do I want it? Sure,
I would definitely watch. I know. At the beginning of
the season, Colin Ferrell made a point of like, I
don't want to do a season two. This is a
lot of makeup and a lot of time.

Speaker 2 (56:05):
Yeah, I think we've told our Oz Penguin story here.
I don't think we need a penguin season two. I'm
happy to watch him pop up in other stories in
this universe. I don't think I need it. I don't
think I want it. I think it's just going to
diminish what we've already gotten to that point. Carlin Ferrell
has already revealed that he has five or six scenes

(56:26):
in The Batman two and is attached to star in
that third movie. Yeah, so we already know he's not
going to die into which makes sense. I think he's
still gonna be kind of playing behind the scenes in
the second movie. So maybe there is ram for season
two between movie two and three. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (56:41):
Colin Farrell was also on Hot Ones. I don't know
if it was recently, whatever it is, but he was
talking about how actors always talk about you know, you
do one artsy movie for yourself and then a blockbuster
for you know, for the money or for the fans,
and it's like, no, this is this is all for
you because you get the money from that movie and
then you get to act it up in this one.
And so stop saying one for you, one for me,

(57:02):
It's all for you.

Speaker 2 (57:05):
Eat both twigs.

Speaker 1 (57:05):
Yeah. I love Colin Ferrell.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
He's pretty great.

Speaker 1 (57:08):
So then the question that I hear for you, Mac
is if we're not going to get a Penguin, which
I don't know if we need another Penguin season, what
Batman character would you like to see get their own
season of television.

Speaker 2 (57:21):
So I think it'll tie in well, and you've already
mentioned Tim, I think it would tie in well with
what they're building underneath. The overall story is this Gotham
and the politics and the corrupt politics. Really feels like
a Harvey Dent Court of Vowel situation would play out
really well. So I do think like a two faced
Harvey Dent type of season would would work really well.

(57:43):
I feel like this second movie, the closure we get
to it, I'm starting to feel like more and more
it's gonna be mister Freeze as the villain, and we're
dealing with a winter type of setting. It's been awfully
silent on the villain front with this movie, and we
have introduced and talked about other villains. So I'm starting
to think Freeze is going to be the primary villain

(58:05):
of The Batman too.

Speaker 1 (58:06):
I was gonna say because I would love a mister
Freeze television show. I don't know how cost effective that
would be though, because his power is the cgi the
effects that you would need for that character. I would
love a Heart of Ice type of story.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
But I think that backstory you can do in a movie.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
No, No, you can still do it in the movie.
I'm just saying I want mister Freeze. I would really
like mister Freeze. I think if you're looking to spend
the same amount of money, like you know, not a
ton of effects. More a dialogue driven show, a character
driven show, Harvey Dent makes a lot of sense because
you can just pick up this story with Harvey Dent
and how he'll now deal with these characters. I really

(58:45):
would love, and I don't think they would do. This
is a clayface television show. I think there is a
lot that you can do with this actor who is
aging and then gets into a car accident disfigured, much
like this substance relies on something to make him good
looking again, and then this starts to warp his body
in his mind.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
Yeah, I don't think that's a bad idea. They just
haven't laid the groundwork for any of that, so it
would catch me by surprise if they went that route.

Speaker 1 (59:13):
You also need a big enough name, like maybe you
could do a clay Face in the background. Could do
I don't even think you could do a Mad Hatter show.
You would need him to be a background character.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
That's why I also starting to think because to me,
like Riddler is not a tier B tier villain, which
is why I loved Readler in the first movie. And
I think Freeze is in that same tier, which is
why it's starting to feel more and more like that.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
I think you could name a show Freeze. I think
you could name a show two Face. I think that
there are characters like that. I don't want a joker show.
I'm all set with that.

Speaker 2 (59:45):
Yeah, no, I agree, but we're joking out for now.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
I think you need at least a B level villain,
someone I think you need a villain that popped up
many times on the Adam West Show or someone that
was in the Burton Schumacher verse. Those are pretty well
known villains. I think once you go deeper into the
CD level, that might be a tough sell for HBO.

Speaker 2 (01:00:09):
Well. Yeah, and they also haven't really gotten into the
you know, souped up power types like poison Ivy, So
I don't think we're gonna deal with and Ivy in
this universe. You know, something would have to happen. Maybe
the free stuff gets that roll in a little bit.
But like because it has been very real realism has
been part of this Reeves verse, so it'll be interesting

(01:00:30):
to see if they cross that line at all and
get into some of that more supernatural shit.

Speaker 1 (01:00:35):
I also would have loved really anyone from the bat family,
whether it be any of the Robins or Batgirl, but
we're in year two of Batman, possibly getting closer to
year three, we wouldn't have any of those characters yet.

Speaker 2 (01:00:47):
Yeah, Hush is the other one that everyone wanted when
the first movie can't finished. There there's a lot of
talk of that, so I think, to me, it's down
to Hush to freeze for this for the second movie,
and hopefully we'll have that answer within the next few months,
right once they start shooting and we're gonna have a
good idea of where the villain is.

Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
All right, Mac, where can the people find us?

Speaker 2 (01:01:05):
You can find us on x and on Instagram, at
Mac and goop podcast every other platform. We are mac
ampersan Goo that includes Max seven, Go thcludes Facebook, Sitch
your tuning, Castbucks, speak of Google Play. I alright, radio.
We are on Spotify, but more importantly we're on Apple Podcasts.
Get on their rate review, subscribe five stars. If you
do that, we'll get your free Mac and Go T

(01:01:25):
shirt from the folks over at Watertown Sports Where Watertown Sports
We're on thirty four mot Auburn Street in Watertown. Watertown
Sportswear dot com experts, screenprinting and embroidered.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
Tepupk dot com check us out. At the beginning of
next week four a news dump. And then we're getting
close to movies.

Speaker 2 (01:01:43):
Yeah, we have uh I know next weekend Gladiator, Gladiators
next week, I believe, so we'll see oh yeah, and
Wicked right Wicked, Yeah, So I guess we'll probably do
Gladiator at some point.

Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Let's just do a fucking feature and we'll call it
one of those dumb names that everyone has.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
What's it called clicked, clicked or or Wadiator.

Speaker 1 (01:02:08):
I'm gonna go Watiator. I like that better. Okay, all right, sure,
so check us out. Then Tam Burton by ye please
flip the cassette over to side B to continue the adventure.
Now it's time for girls jumping on trampolines.