Harvard Says Goodbye to DEI Statements

Harvard University’s largest division, their Faculty of Arts and Sciences, made the decision that they will no longer require diversity statements for their faculty. This comes five years after the school first started implementing the requirement that incoming faculty submit an essay explaining how they would advance “diversity, inclusion, and belonging” in their work. Vanderbilt University Chancellor Daniel Diermeier and Attorney Harvey Silverglate joined Dan to discuss Harvard’s decision and more!

Ask Alexa to play WBZ NewsRadio on #iHeartRadio

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
It's Night Side, Dan Ray onBZY, Boston's news radio. Thanks very
much, Dan Watkins. I amdelighted to welcome to the Nightside microphones from
Nashville, Tennessee. The chancellor ofVanderbilt University, one of the great academic
institutions in this country, Chancellor Danieldeer Meyer. Chancellor dear Meyer. We

(00:24):
have at least one mutual friend.When you see Bruce Evans, say hello
to him for us. If youwould be so kind, I will absolutely
do that, and thank you forhaving me tonight. You were more than
welcome. Bruce is a Bostonian who'salso the chair of the board of Trustees
at Vanderbilt, and we have ourdaughters of very close friends and have went

(00:46):
and went to high school together.Vanderbilt. You're only the ninth chancellor in
the history of Vanderbilt University. Howlong has Vanderbilt been around? It goes
back. I assumed the nineteen century. It does. We are just celebrated
or one hundred and fiftieth anniversary lastyear. We were founded by Cornelius Vanderbilt.

(01:10):
And what was what's interesting is thatwhen you look back at the original
purpose of the university expressed in hisIn his letter, he talks about creating
the great University of the South,and the purpose of the university is to
bring together the sides of all thesides of a divided country, which is

(01:30):
a very interesting purpose. Of course, it resonates today even more. Yes,
and so one hundred and fifty oneyears nine chances doors, Well,
that's that's that's that's pretty good longevityfor per chancellor. That that's for sure,
about eighteen years a chancellor. Soyou, of course, like a

(01:51):
lot of the other universities. Andby the way, anyone here, we're
in New England, but we're heardall over the eastern half of the US,
So I don't think anyone needs anintroduction to Vanderbilt. But Vanderbilt and
Duke University are the two major universitiesthat I think of in the South below
the Mason Dixon line. They thinkof themselves that sort of. Harvard and

(02:15):
Yale are the Duke and Vanderbilts ofthe north. So let that go.
But we had some really ugly incidentsup here at MIT, at Harvard,
at Columbia, you were for themost part able to escape this. In

(02:38):
this the very disruptive spring of twentytwenty four. For a while, I
thought I was living back in nineteensixty eight, which when I was in
college, it seemed that had thatvibe. How did you navigate what was
going on? You had your protests, but you drew a pretty clear line
between speech and active and action.Yeah. So the first thing I should

(03:00):
say that, you know, afterthe incidents of October seventh, for over
half a year longer than that,our students have been great. So we've
had discussions, we had vigils,we've had intense conversations. And then what
happened in March. We had agroup of pro Palestinian students, about twenty

(03:23):
seven twenty eight students that again theaccess really broke into an administrative building had
been closed for construction. That's themain administrative building is called Kirkman Hall.
It's named after one of our chancellors, and had been closed because we were
still doing some minor construction of themajor renovation. They ran into the building,

(03:43):
they ran over security guard that thesecurity guard got injured, and then
they tried to get access to myoffice, were prevented from doing so,
and then basically came out in frontof my office. That happened at about
nine o'clock in the morning. Therewe tried to talk to them. There
was you know, a lot ofchanting, not all of it very pleasant

(04:04):
for our staff, i should say. And we decided what to do,
and we had very clear rules aboutprotest we've had, you know, we've
had protests before on campus. Itworked really well. Before even a week
earlier, we had no issues whatsoeverof a pro Protestinian, a Proisraeli protest.
So around five o'clock in the morning, the students that had assaulted the

(04:28):
the the the officer and they werecharged by assault for assault by the municipality,
were arrested. The other students thenwent back, they left the building.
They everybody was charged with with Wewent through this typical student disciplinary process.
We had some students being expelled assome students are suspended and some being

(04:53):
put on probation. So that wasdone very you know, according to our
standard process, which you know takesabout a week or two. That's what
we did. We had after that, you know, some still some protests
going on, but nothing major asstudents behaved very well. They really stayed
within the rules of what we considerthe appropriate expression of their opinions. And

(05:17):
h and free expression. And wehad our commencement just a few weeks ago,
which really went went through with anincident, very important moment particular for
this year. Year of twenty fourdidn't have high school graduations, so it
was a very meaningful and really wonderfullocation. Well, it sounds to me
as if you had some pretty clearrules and as long as people comply with

(05:41):
their rules, that's not a problem. But again, once they crossed that
line from pure speech to action,which included, you know, hurting other
people and doing damage to property.I remember watching the students that Wumbia breaking
into Hamilton Hall one night, andof course all of that now gets gets

(06:04):
televised nationally almost immediately, and Iremember them breaking glass uh to to unlocked
doors and then they held I believecustodians there actually hostage or they were they
were not allowed to leave how youwant to phrase it. But in the
back of my mind when I sawthat there was this word crystal knock,

(06:25):
that that that that rang true,this breaking of glass, of a of
a of a of a very badtime. I'm sure you know of what
I speak. Why is it thatthat that a lot of university leaders like
yourself, have not been able tofigure out clear lines, and they talk

(06:46):
in terms of of an event aswell. You need to understand the context
of I don't understand the context of, you know, preventing students from from
from moving around campus freely. Ithat was some of the stuff that we
saw at Harvard and certainly also atColumbia. It seems to me that you
provided leadership, clear, unequivocal leadershipfor your faculty and your university. And

(07:14):
I know it probably it looks asan outlier, but it's what we need
at other universities as well. Doyou think that that what you did others
will learn from going forward? Wewant that Petrie dish of different ideas on
every college campus. But you know, the idea of violence, the idea

(07:35):
of impacting and impeding other students,it has to it cannot be tolerated.
Well. One thing I think that'sreally important and a very important lesson is
that you have to be crystal clearabout the principles and the values. And
so we were very clear about articulatingthat we have these three principles, with

(08:00):
one which is about what we calledopen form, which is really about free
speech. The second one is whatwe call institutional moutrality, which means that
the university will not take positions thatgo beyond the core functioning of the university.
And the third one is really aboutwhat because civil discourse, which is
a commitment of the members of ourcommunity to listen to each other, to

(08:22):
use arguments, and to try touse fact based reasoning when they discuss complicated
issues with each other. And ourstudents actually when they arrive on campus they
sign what we call a community createa pledge to civil discourse that embodies the
values of civility and of remembering thatwe're members of one community. So there

(08:45):
was always that's clear to all ofour students when they arrive on campus.
That's something we communicate all the timeand consistently. We have a whole program
called Dialogue Vanderbilt that is built aroundthose values. Our students did a great
job for most of the time.Just a week before we had the incident

(09:05):
in Kirkland Hall that I just mentioned, we had a pro Israeli group and
a pro Palestinian group on one ofour main lawns. They had their display.
They one had like a picture ofthe had had a wall with images
of the hostages. The other onehad had a wall with images of Palestinians
being killed. That is, therewas a proper expression of their point of

(09:28):
view. But once you violate rules, you have to act accordingly, because
other than that, I think you'rejust gonna have chaos on campuses. And
we were very clear that the rulesthat we live by as a community would
also be enforced by the leadership.I believe you spent some time at the
University of Chicago. If I'm notmistaken, great, I did. I

(09:48):
was the provost there before my timeat Vanderbilt. Yes, And if I'm
not mistaken, the University of Chicagohas articulated similar clear rules. And I
wish every major university in the countrycould imitate Vanderbilt and the University of Chicago,
because when you said your kids offto school, you want them to

(10:11):
have fun, you want them tolearn, and you want them to be
safe. And I don't think thata lot of the many of the Ivy
League colleges where they have safe spaceswhere people can go and sort of pout
and cry or comfort animals, orthey're upset that a teacher expressed an idea
or a concept that they're uncomfortable withit almost at a lot of the schools

(10:33):
around the country, Unlike Vanderbilt,at the univers Chicago, it's almost as
if the students expect to run theuniversity the similar way we used to talk
about the patients running the asylum.Well, the University of Chicago has very
similar principles. It has also acommitment to free speech. It has a

(10:54):
commitment to institutional autrility, which justcodified in something called the Calvinary Port,
which has been very influential for manyuniversities. And you know, our principles
go back really to Alexander Hurt,which was a fifth chancellor who was leading
university during the sixties and seventies,and so there had to deal with very

(11:15):
similar issues that we're dealing with rightnow. I think the critical guideline that
we need to think about is thateverything we do as university leaders has to
be driven by the purpose and themission of the university. And the mission
of the university, at least forthe type of universities that we're talking about,
is to provide a transformative education andpath banking research. And to have

(11:37):
a transformative education and path backing research, you must have free flow of ideas,
and free flow ideas sometimes are challenging. They also should encourage the students
to engage complexity and be able tosee different sides of an issue and not
immediately kind of rush to righteousness.As one of my professors has expressed that

(12:01):
great that has a hugely important purposeoff the university, and whatever we can
do to act according to a purpose, whether it's on the educational side on
the research side, we should do. Chancellor Daniel deer Meyer is my guest.
I have to take a very quickcommercial break. I know that we
will finish by nine thirty, butI just wanted to spend a few more

(12:22):
minutes with you and talk about thefutures, the future of universities in America.
My name is Dan Ray. Thisis Nightside. You're listening to WBC
ten thirty and your AM dial,and I'm interviewing the Chancellor of Vanderbilt University,
Daniel deer Meyer. Be back withthe Chancellor, and after the Chancellor
leaves, will give you an opportunityto call in and comment on what he

(12:43):
has expressed. And we'll also betalking with our dear friend Harvey Silverglade also
at nine thirty. Back on Nightsideright after this. Now back to Dan
Ray live from the Window World NightsideStudios on wb News Radio. We have
a few minutes left with Vanderbilt UniversityChancellor Daniel Deermeyer, Chanceller. I hope

(13:07):
you might have noticed in the newspaperstoday that Harvard's Faculty of Arts and Sciences
here have decided that they will eliminatethe requirement for diversity at equity and inclusion
statements in the process of hiring.I assume you've seen that. I look

(13:28):
at that as a step in theright direction, because, as Randall Kennedy,
the law professor at Harvard, wrotein the Harvard Crimson earlier this year,
it is an infringement, It's animposition and an infringement on the First
Amendment rights of academics. He wrote, by requiring academics to profess to font

(13:52):
faith in DEI, the proliferation ofdiversity statement poses a profound challenge to academic
freedom. I assume you're aware ofthis, and I'll be curious if you
feel I don't know what the situationis at Vanderbilt. Are there requirements for
faculty to pledge of allegiance to thestatements? No, there there aren't advanta

(14:13):
built and I think there were reallytwo important developments at Harvard in the last
week. One was what you justmentioned, the DEI, the College of
Art, Faculty of Arts and Scienceis no longer requiring the I statements.
The other one was a faculty committeerecommending that Harvard would no longer make public

(14:35):
statements on issues not directly connected tothe function of the university. So I
think what you see right now andthis is really part of a broader I
think a broader discussion as universities arereflecting on what their purpose is and that
they that they really need to focuson, you know, the creation and
transmission of knowledge, as I saidearlier, path breaking research and transformative education,

(15:00):
and be careful that they're not slidinginto taking political positions or political litmus
tests. You know, providing accessto students and creating a sense that they
can really thrive is crucially important.But we just have to be careful that
these that these goals which are importantfor universities, do not slide into taking

(15:22):
political positions. I'm happy to seethat the Harvard is moving in this direction.
There are you know, various otheruniversities that are thinking about similar issues.
And if all the drama that we'veseen on college campuses over the last
month is leading us to refocus onwhat is the purpose of the great American

(15:43):
research university, which is the envyof the world, then that would be
a great outcome. Yeah. MyI would put it this way, that
university should teach students how to think, not necessarily what to think. Yeah,
this is a wonderful that's actually it'sa it's a it's a great,
very important lesson and value had agrade of the former president of the University

(16:06):
of Coago I think was one ofthe first who mentioned that, and it
is a great way to think aboutour responsibility and omission as a university as
it comes to our students. Therehave been some very ugly incidents at different
schools. I think of one atStanford Law School a couple of years ago
when in a Federal appeals Court judgewas heckled as he had been invited to

(16:29):
speak and a group hackled him andin walked an administrator. I'm sure you're
familiar with this story that deals withFederals Appeal Court's judge. Federal Appeals Court
judge Stuart Kyle Duncan and the administratoras opposed to calming the students down and
explaining to them that he was hereto speak and they could ask whatever questions

(16:51):
they wanted in a question and answerperiod. She ended up lecturing the judge,
telling him that his appellate court decisionon the Ninth Circuit had discomforted some
of the students and he was actuallythe cause of them acting out and acting
up up in their incivility. I'dlove to get a comment on that from

(17:18):
Nashville, Tennessee. You must haveseen that play out. Yeah, we've
We've certainly seen it at Vanderbilt,and you know, we've seen it,
you know, issues like that atthe University of Chicago in early in my
career as well. It's utterly importantthat we create an environment where different voices
on campus can be heard from differentsides of the political side, from a

(17:40):
different perspectives. And what you cannothave is that that disruption off speakers on
campus makes it impossible then to speak. The moment you tolerate a heckless video,
so to speak, that's inconsistent withthe very notion of providing an open
form. People can disagree, theycan disagree passionate, but you cannot shout

(18:00):
down members of the community or gueststhat have been invited by members of the
community. So it's very, veryimportant that we create the boundaries and the
guidelines and the processes so that afree speech and open forum of open forums
on campuses can thrive. Chancellor,it's been delightful to talk with you.

(18:22):
One of my listeners had heard you, and then a friend of mine who
used to work for The New YorkTimes in Boston and now works in New
York listens to the show. Aunited is through their suggestion that we invited
you, and you did not disappoint. I really appreciate and you have restored
my faith in university administrators and universities, university chancellors and presidents. And I

(18:49):
hope, I hope that more headsof colleges and institutions academic institutions around the
country look to Vanderbilt for leadership,because you're certainly a provided leadership on your
campus. And real quick question,I'm just I know that there were a
lot of kids from New England whoapplied to Vanderbilt. How large is your

(19:11):
undergraduate student body and do you havea fairly significant percentage of kids from New
England heading to Nashville. Yeah,so our total undergraduate student body is as
around seven thousand students. So that'sa big school. That's a big school,
you know, seventeen hundred and enteringclass and we have a very strong

(19:33):
demand from New England, from reallythe entire East Coast, New York area,
d C, Boston, New England. Vanderbilt is now a destination all
across the country and it's wonderful tosee this interest, you know, in
so many different parts of the UnitedStates. It enhances the education experience for

(19:56):
everyone, and I think that issomething where people have over the last years
discovered Vanderbilt as a place which providesa great college education, well rounded,
and a place where there also hasa sense of community and fun. Yeah,
you have some great sports teams downthere, and obviously you are a
great nightlife in Nashville. It isbecoming. It is a great city,

(20:18):
there's no question about it, andobviously a music capital of soon, I
think the music capital of America rightnow. Chancellor, thank you so much
for your time. Honored to havehad you on the program tonight. Chancellor
Daniel Deermeyer, Vanderbilt University, theChancellor. Thank you again. I can't
tell you much. I appreciate takingyour time out to spend some time with

(20:38):
me and with my listeners. Thankyou so much for having me. You're
more than welcome. When we getback, we'll be joined by Harvey Silverglade
and I'd like to get some reactionfrom my audience. This is the chancellor
of a huge, influential academic university. I mean, this is one of

(21:00):
the leading universities in the country.It stands in the shadow of no university,
harved Yale, Princeton, whatever.And there is a very clear statement
of what purpose he perceives his universityshould pursue and what purpose the students at

(21:22):
the university should get involved in.Let to get your reaction. It took
us a lot to get him tojoin us. And Harvey will join us
in a moment and we'll he'll he'llcomment, but I want your comment as
well. Six one, seven,two, five, four ten thirty six
one seven, nine three one tenthirty. We try to do things differently

(21:45):
here on Night Side, and it'snot easy to get someone of his stature,
particularly UH at the end of thistumultuous academic school year. UH and
I thank him for his time andI think his I thank his staff for
considering our invitation, and I thankDonna and Kevin who helped with that suggestion.

(22:06):
Back on Nightside right after the newsat the bottom of the hour,
my name is Dan Ray. Thisis WBZ ten thirty on your AM,
Boston's News Radio. You're on NightSide with Dan Ray. I'm WZ Boston's
News Radio. Well, I hopeyou enjoyed the conversation with the chancellor of
Vanderbilt University as much as I did. Daniel deer Meyer. Let me first

(22:32):
get Harvey Silverglate's reaction. I askedHarvey to be available because this is really
right up his alley in terms offree speech and what's going on. Harvey
is a Princeton and Harvard Law schoolperson. But I'll tell you welcome,
Harvey. I'm pretty impressed by DanielDeermeyer. Well, very impressed, because

(22:55):
of course he is. He isone of the same college administration in the
country. He has adopted the socalled Chicago principles, as you noted during
the discussion, which means institutional neutrality. Colleges are meant forums to debate,
to research. They are not meantto express institutional opinions because you have you

(23:22):
have a variety of opinions on everysubject there and how can you possibly have
an institutional position when the whole ideais people are there to debate and come
up with personal positions, so theyand I should point out that Harvard has

(23:45):
just announced that it is going toadopt the Chicago principles. This is after
an enormous amount of agony, theriots, the faculty, some faculty members
left, and the finally professors likeRandy Kennedy, Steve Pinker. Pinker organized

(24:07):
the faculty to fight for this.Randy Kennedy, who had committee that recommended
it, the interim the interim administratorsGarber who was the provost who is now
interim president, and Allen and mannamed John Manning who was the dean of
the law school, whom I knowvery well and consider a friend, but

(24:32):
he has become the provost interim provost, and I knew as soon as they
were named that the that the problemwas on its way to be solved.
And if I may, Dan justread you a letter that I wrote read
wrote to both of them on Marchseventh of this year. Surely after they

(24:56):
were installed. I'm reading you oneparagraph. Both of you now say extraordinary
challenges as well as opportunities. You'vebeen tasked, in my view, of
leading Harvard into a new era,or perhaps into a re entry through a
prior era when the concept of aliberal arts university was better understood. I

(25:18):
have long thought that Harvard should adoptthe Chicago principles that wisely establish that university
should not take political positions, butrather should function as censors where all points
of view can be developed, studied, and debated. I understand you're assembling
the task force to look into thisvival reform. I feel certain that's fired.

(25:40):
That's my foundation for vision and invisialrights. Expression will make available its
vast experience in protecting liberal education shouldyou wish to call upon it, and
I stand ready. I ask toassist in the challenges that follow. And
I got a March twentieth letter fromGarber copied to John Manning. Dear Harvey,

(26:03):
I write a response to your letterinterim provos Manning and me. First,
I want to thank you for yourthoughtful comments. As you recognize and
as we have tried to make clearin public statements, John and I are
also concerned about speech. With speechissues, this is a challenging time for
Harvard, and I believe that wecan make real progress. Many thanks to

(26:26):
for your offer of assistance, whichI will keep in mind as we continue
to address this importance set of issues. So that was a response I got,
and that made it clear to methat they were going to do precisely
what Fire and I recommended and whatChicago principles are now adopted at Harvard.
It is in fact a whole newera. Well you would think Harvey that

(26:49):
just speaking at Harvard, But wecan talk about the univers Pennsylvania, We
talk about Columbi, Weing, talkabout MIT, Weing talk about so many
schools, UCLA, which went througha very diff calgier a year ago.
In Harvard there was a different presidentchluding Gay. No one ever would have
anticipated what took place in Israel onOctober seventh, the implications thereof what has

(27:15):
happened in this country. And thismight again restore, as Chancellor Demeyer you
know, suggested, and as youhave talked about, truly free speech,
true free speech in the context ofcivil discourse on college campuses, with the
Chicago Principles of neutrality. You know, let me tell you about clothing gay.

(27:41):
Oh. When Larry Backau became presidentof succeeding roof Fall, I wrote
them a letter on behalf of myselfand Fire and asked them if I could
meet about summer Fire's objections to thespeech codes and such as Harvard. He
that would be twice. We're goingover it. He was only in there
for five years. His problem wasthat he announced ahead of time that he

(28:04):
was only to be there five years. As soon as you do that,
of course, you completely disserrate yourpower absolutely. And it's sort of like
a president of the United States.The last two years of second term the
president, you can't get anything done. I'm president, as if you announced

(28:25):
upon your appointment as president of Harvardthat you're going to be there for five
years. That's so I I like. I like Larry. I met with
him several times. I met withhim twice while he was president, and
then after he left office, heinvited me out for lunch walk a retrospect,
and I was just in touch withhim the other day. But but

(28:48):
I know Manning quite well, andI knew that as soon as these two
got it got the the in socalled into him positions that things were going
to move in the right direction.I can tell you that the best thing
that can happen to Harvard was thatthey strike the interim from those titles and
them and bring them on as anew leadership, because they have been going

(29:11):
in exactly the right direction. AndI would expect that things are going to
calm down, you know, CloudineGay. But when she was the end
of the faculty, I got confidential, confidential from members of the senior faculty
that she was holding training sessions notonly for students, but inviting professors to

(29:37):
be inviting them to learn the principlesof diversity, equity, and inclusion.
Could you believe that faculty members atone of the great universities in the world,
not forget about this the country,are being asked to show up for
training training by an administrator well whatshe was named president. I was absolutely

(30:00):
horrified. I knew what was coming. It would be as if they were
asking faculty members at Harvard to showup for training in spelling and grammar.
You were so Harvey. Let's takea break. I want to get some
phone calls for you. In reactionto our interview with Vanderbilt University Chancellor Daniel

(30:22):
Diermeier the number six one, seven, two, five, four, ten
thirty. Also six one seven,nine three one ten thirty back with Harvey
Silverglade. This to me was oneof the most important hours in the history
of Nightside, because this is achancellor of a hugely major university, Vanderbilt
University, who basically was as clear, crystal clear in what the principles are

(30:47):
and the enforcement of those principles,as opposed to what we saw at those
congressional hearings in December with the leadersof Harvard MIT and President and University of
Pennsylvania, and of course and whathappened at Columbia this spring. Back on
Night's Side right after this. Nowback to Dan Ray live from the Window

(31:08):
World night Side Studios on WBZ NewsRadio. All right, let's go.
We got my favorite, one ofmy favorite callers, Steven Cambridge. Steve,
first of all, you're all withHarvey Silvic late your reaction to the
conversation we had earlier this hour withVanderbilt University Chancellor Daniel Dearmeyer. David,

(31:29):
Dan, You're too kind, ButHarvey, I'm afraid I did not hear
all of the conversation. But Harvey, I think, Harvey, you are
being prematurely optimistic, and there aretwo reasons for that, and I would
be interested in your response. NumberOne, I don't think the Harvard administration

(31:52):
is finding God. I think theygot really scared because of their donors refusing
our threatening to withhold monies, andHarvard really likes large amounts of money,
and that really scared them. Andthe second reason, Harvey that I think

(32:15):
you're being prematurely optimistic is if yousaw the interview with Harvey Mansfield in the
Sunday Journal, he certainly feels,or it certainly seems that there are so
many I'm using the words somewhat looselyMarxists embedded in every department of Harvard that,

(32:38):
regardless of adopting the Chicago principles,are not the university is so deep
in ideology that it's very hard toreverse. Okay, I did doave the
Journal. In fact, I hadan outbet of the Journal on the Monday,
a great opect. Thank you,Thank you. I do read the

(33:00):
General and I know Harvey Mansfield verywell. His daughter actually was married to
a college roommate of mine, soI know the Mansfield family very well,
and I used to attend. He'snow semi retired. He had the monthly
lunches at Harvard talking about political positions, and I used to attend those.

(33:27):
And I think that Harvey Mansfield isso traumatized from being one of the very
few political conservatives at Harvard that he'sturned out too pessimistic. I think that
Garber and Manning. I know Manningvery well, former dean of the law
School, and probably will go backto it if he doesn't get the provost

(33:51):
position permanently. He is a fleetspeech guy. He really believes it,
long before the current upset at Harvard. I agree with you that money has
been very important at Harvard. It'sthe reason why people like Tenny Pritska ends
up being the senior fellow of thecorporation. She knows absolutely nothing, but

(34:15):
she comes from a very wealthy family. They have a lot of money,
and so she ends up in thecorporation. I actually wrote her a letter
asking for a meeting, and Ididn't get that. But I think that
you're unduly pessimistic because I know thesetwo new leaders and they really do believe

(34:38):
it. This is not a fundraisingthing. We'll say, because time will
tell. But you know, StevePinker now has a lot of power and
authority. Randall Kennedy a real freespeech guy. I have a great story

(34:59):
about Raydall Kennedy. Yeah, hopehave time to go into it now,
but probably not because we're perilously closeto the end of the hour, Harvey.
But that is a story for anothernight, which we can tell.
Let's go ahead, Okay. Inany event, I would not be you
know, I'm normally pretty pessimistic.I am not pessimistic about this, Harvey.

(35:21):
I am less pessimistic after hearing youspeak. Thank you, Dan,
Thank you Harvey, Steve, Thanksthanks for calling in. Really do appreciate
it. Harvey. I just wantto thank you again for all of your
efforts, h and also for beingavailable tonight to to listen to Chancellor dear

(35:43):
Mayer. This was the first timeI've ever heard him, and certainly the
first time that I spoke with him. But he seemed to me to be
the real deal. And uh,if there are you know, chancellors and
university presidents like him waiting in thewings, and they follow the formula that
I think has worked successfully at Vanderbilt. We may be on the cusp of

(36:07):
a renaissance of traditional American you know, liberal arts education. Well he was
absolutely fabulous, and not that theyexpected otherwise. But I do think that
there is a new wind blowing inAmerican higher education, and I think we're
going to see some very interesting developmentsand I hope to be part of them,

(36:28):
and I hope that my foundation FIREis part of them. I think
that the Fire Foundation for Individual Rightsin in Education has has laid the groundwork.
It's taken thirty years, Harvey,but I do think that there are
people now who were who I thinkyou work in the venues for a long

(36:52):
time and starting to be some food. Let me put it like that,
And as always, I thank youfor your friendship, and I did.
I'm set up today that guest thatwe talked about for later on this month,
on the twenty first, I'll talkabout that. She is really interesting.
Yeah, Harvard Harvard Law School professor. Yeah, it'll be. It'll
be a fun hour. Harvey.Thank you for your friendship and your time.

(37:14):
My friend has always we'll talk soon. Great, good I dam good
night, Hervey. All right,we're gonna take a quick break here,
we come back when we talk aboutJoe Biden has had a a reversal of
on the bord of security. Veryinteresting today. I watched the presentation.
We'll share it with it with you. I'll ask the Goldilocks question, too

(37:37):
much, too little, or justright? See what you have to say.
Coming back on Night's side, JoeBiden, is this a deathbed conversion
or is it a political deathbed conversion? Is what I should say. We'll
be back on. I will explainthat horrific metaphor in just a moment