October 19, 2024 • 55 mins
This week, Paula's guest is All Black great turned mental health advocate Sir John Kirwan. They discuss his thoughts on the current state of rugby, his views on ambition and a need for society to move away from extremes, and his latest business ventures. He then shares his advice on talking about and addressing your mental health.
Suicide and depression help services:
If it is an emergency and you or someone else is at risk, call 111.
For counselling and support:
- Lifeline: http://www.lifeline.co.nz, call 0800 543 354 or text 4357 (HELP)
- Suicide Crisis Helpline: www.lifeline.org.nz/services/suicide-crisis-helpline, or call 0508 828 865 (0508 TAUTOKO)
Youth services:
- Youthline: Call 0800 376 633 or text 234
- What's Up: Call 0800 942 8787 (11am to 11pm) or webchat (11am to 10.30pm)
- Depression helpline: Call 0800 111 757 or text 4202 (available 24/7)
- Helpline: Need to talk? Call or text 1737
- Aoake te Rā (Bereaved by Suicide Service): Call 0800 000 053
For more information and support, talk to your local doctor, hauora, community mental health team, or counselling service.
The Mental Health Foundation has more helplines and service contacts - click here for information
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I am Paula Benatt and welcome to my New Zealand
Herald podcast. Asked me anything, one thing I've learned in
life is it's never too late to learn something new.
So on this podcast I talked to people from all
(00:22):
walks of life to hear about how they got to
where they are, get some advice and guidance on some
of life's biggest questions today. It is one of our
greats in one of our rugby grats, but it's not
just rugby that Sir John Cowan as well known for.
He does tremendous work in the area of mental health.
We got told earlier this season. He's an incredible visionary
(00:44):
and the man behind so many of rex Aalizo's ideas.
He's also behind a newly announced world class, one hundred
million dollar surve part being developed in Auckland.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
John also founded Mighty.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
It is about primary prevention and strengthening children's mental health
and in the early years. I'm very excited to have
Sir John Kewan here.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Hi JK, Hi, Paula.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
How are you? How is that he's looking forward to
coming and seeing you this story?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Oh good, I was. We'll have a good yarn.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
We will good old fat yarn. As my kids were saying,
love us a fat yarn, Dad.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, it's good.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I think thank goodness for podcasts because it does give
us a bit more in depth because everything seems to
be a sixty second any thing we're looking for these days,
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
I think the world has got better choices now, right,
you can, I can choose. I like long format because
I learned so much more. But I think the interesting
thing from a mental health point of view, they say
now that if you want to keep someone's attention, you
only have six seconds.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Six seconds now Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Don't know whether I believe that shit, but anyway.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So I was supposed to quick far questions, but I
thought and steered that you could tell us about your wine.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Well, I've just got back from Italy doing some more
research and development as I do.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, because I've been lucky enough to drink it.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, and even take some home with me, so you know,
like I yes, So, which.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
What's your favorite?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Tell us a bit about the varietals and what's your
favorab Well, I'll tell you a little.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Bit about the story because it's more about people.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
So I came back to live in New Zealand probably
eleven years ago now, and my daughter, who was a
semi professional volleyballer, decided not to come back to New Zealand.
She wanted to stay up there anyway. After a couple
of years she decided she was going to come down
and live and got old end z but wanted to
carry on being a professional sportswoman. And as you know
(02:43):
in sport and New Zealand, especially in volleyball in New Zealand,
there's no money. So I said, well, you know, I've
got this incredible passion for wine and food. Why don't
we start a company. You've just studied business and marketing
and you know pastory exams. Why don't we just put
it straight into practice? But the idea other things?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So how long has it been going?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Probably ten years now. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
And the interesting thing for me when I came back
to New Zealand and I walked into a supermarket. A
when I left, you didn't sell wine at supermarket. You
went to your local wine shop, and there's just this
massive array of wines and it was sort of confusing
and frustrating.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
So, you know, if you don't know a lot about wine.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
What do you do you know if I go to
your place that I want to spend fourteen bucks because
you think I'm a cheap ass, you know, so sort
of going on price and didn't really know. So one
of our ideas was to totally connect to the vineyards.
So it was about the people that make the wine.
So a lot of my friends were you know, wine
growers and makers in Italy and then adding stories to it.
(03:52):
But really our other thing is that we want to
have value for money in that category, because you just
want that's all I want. You know, if I buy
a New Zealand pinonois, try that there's like three million
of them, how do I know that that's good quality?
So the idea is I go and personally try the wines,
which obviously pulled you and I'd be very very good
(04:13):
at and I'm becoming an expert at trying wines. And
then I picked the wines that we like, and then
we associate them either with the vineyard or with the
you know, with a personality. So I've named wines after
you know, my mother and father in law and my wife,
all sorts of different stuff. So there's an emotional connection
to me.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Where do you predominantly sell We sell.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
A lot online, We've sell into a lot of restaurants, Yes,
in New Zealand and New Zealand, Yes, New Zealand based.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
So talking about your kids, I mean they're all so
successful in it. So as you say, you've got your
daughter and the company with you doing the wine, and
then we were just talking about Nico, he was an
all white and playing football in Italy.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
And then we've got Luca who's.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Part of the Luna Rosa America's Cup team, which is
just kind of outstanding. So do you think they just
like least whose success are they following or they just
always had a good drive and determination.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I think sport has always been an important part of
education in our house. My wife was a semi professional
volleyballer obviously, you know, I was in the amateur area,
but probably was professional rugby player most of my life.
So they grew up with sport. But we also wanted
(05:28):
them to choose their own sort of field. And it's hard,
it's hard on our youngsters now in sport, it's pretty
dynamic life to have. So I just wanted them to
be the best that they can be and follow their
sort of dreams, and you know they've had you know,
my son Niko has had so much adversity, you know,
(05:49):
in his football career, you know, and he's always just
getting up and trying to be the best that he
can be.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
And I think one of the biggest questions that they
asked me, Dad, you know what if I'm not good enough?
And I think every young person would ask themselves that,
and I probably asked myself that when I was young.
But that question often can make you not try.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, right, because you're a failure.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Yeah, and just not being good enough up to your
own expectations or someone's else. So often, you know, I
always said to them that if you give it your
everything and you only play third division, or if you
only make club rugby or whatever, but that's your limit,
(06:41):
then when you get to my age, you'll be okay
with it. It's when you get to my age and
you look back on life and you think, I wish
I could have or should have done a bit more. So,
understanding your level is where you need to get to,
and then there's a process about accepting that.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
But I think that's.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
All walks of life, right, But for me that was
in politics. Yeah, so everyone was sort of well not everyone.
There was the odd person that said, why aren't you
going for the top job? And it was like, Oh,
this is my wheelhouse, this is where I'm good.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you know, I'm sixty soon,
and you know, I've learned to talk to my ego,
right instead of just ignoring it and let.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
It drive you.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (07:30):
So often your ego will be making decisions for you
and with you in a subconscious way. So how do
I say to my ego when I'm making decisions? And
as you get a bit older, you start contemplating this
stuff a whole lot more.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
What part of this decision is actually my ego? Right?
Speaker 4 (07:55):
And I'm pretty sure in politics you know sometimes the
top job you would think about doing the top job, right,
but you but.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
It might be your ego.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
But if you have, if you have the ability to
say this is my warehouse, this is where I'm really happy,
then you know that that is a blessing in disguise.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yeah. I'm just one hundred percent agree.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
The only times I would have an inkling of it would.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Be and I would have called it my vanity.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
You know what I mean. But as you say, it
was ego, you know, like it was just like someone
thinks they can maybe that's gone to go, but I
don't want it. Yeah, and then going back to that
place really quickly. But you're rider and you do get better.
So grandchild, You got your first grandchild.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Yeah, a little CJ. Arrived four and a half months ago,
and that's really cool. We're obviously in an Italian household,
so I was.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Gonna say, because the boys are in Italy, aren't they?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
But my daughter's here, yeah, and her husband's here and
they live with us. So I'm very feel, very fortunate
that I spend a lot of my days with my grandchild.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
The time suckers, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Yeah, No, it's great.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
I mean, you know, I think you're talking about six seconds,
and you know you have more inputs in your brain
today than your grandparents had in a lifetime.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Right, So.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
We don't have any downtime because it's invaded with technology.
So you know, we're even taking our phones to the toilet.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Now.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
I think the beauty of a grandchild is they take
your whole attention. You can't look at your phone, you
can't do anything else, So it's actually been a really
nice process, reflective process on slowing down like that.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
I like that. All right, we'll better talk rugby, but
really someone will be interested.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Nice.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
I do love the game, you know, of course I do.
Like I'm a butcher from Mangady. Yeah, you know this
game has given me everything in life, you know, I remember.
I'll tell you a funny story. This friend of mine
in Italy came to me and said, JK, would you
run the Venice Marathon? And I just laughed. I said, shit,
(10:06):
I can't even run to the letterbox anymore, mate like.
And he said, would you do the last two K?
And I said, And they build bridges through Venice. It's
actually spectacular. And I said, yeah, I could probably run
the last two K. And he said, we want to
raise some money for people tired. Yeah exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
I just dropped me off the last two K and
I'll pretend that I've cruised done. We're raising money for
rugby guy who's a tetraplegic. And I said, oh, yeah, okay,
tell me the story. And he said, well, you know
this guy broke his neck after the fifth th ree set,
So anyway, I do this thing. Yeah, sure, no problem,
(10:44):
run Venus. I mean it was more. It was so
beautiful for me to run through Venus. Blah blah blah.
And I go around to his house and I'm taking
two thousand dollars. I walk in and here he is,
like and he couldn't stop thanking me. His mum and
dad were there.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
His mom, his dad's a baker, gets up at five.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
O'clock in the morning, goes to where it comes home,
lifts him out of bed, bathes his mum's twenty four
to seven nurse, and he's thinking me, and I'm going
I would hate me. Yeah, you know, how do you
how do you love the game? And John Color was
the name Junker, And I just thought the rugby has
(11:26):
taken everything away from you, and it's given me everything. Anyway,
I said, I don't know why I said it. I said,
I made I'm going to swim for you, and I'm
going to swim the straight of Messina. I don't know
where that came from, but anyway, we ended up swimming
for him and raising money over the next sort of
ten years, which was really cool. But you know, I
do love the game. It's given me so much. I
think it's got its challenges at the moment.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, it does have a lot of challenges at the moment,
and so you can be quite harsh in your commentary
and you've been on the other end of it.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Yeah, Look, I don't don't.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
I try not to be personal.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I just try and tell my truth.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
And I think there's been a since I grew up,
there's been a tendency for New Zealanders not to have
confrontation based on respect. You know, people, I have an opinion,
and I have a strong opinion, and I expect you
(12:24):
to push back because that will help me form my opinion. Right,
it's opinion, But often people perceive it as single minded,
you know, like, but really for me, it's if you
can't push back with a decent argument, then you don't
have one.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
So I was brought up like that. You know.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
One of my best mates, Ricardo and Salizo, we you know,
we argue about lots of stuff, but it's always based
on respect, and it's always based on the greater good,
you know. Like for me, Rugby at the moment is
an anaerobic game. I want to see it go back
to an aerobic game. I want to see more speed
in the game. I want to see the times of
(13:06):
game and play go up so that some of our
athletes start losing some size. I think that's going to
be better for everybody. I want the games to go
from you know, thirty four minutes real time to fifty
five minutes real time. I want our administration that's been
amateur since we've been professional to move faster.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
They don't.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
And is that just because and this is someone who
doesn't follow rugby me? And is that because you's just
been so many rule changes? Is it around some of
it around safety? Is it just or is it just
a whole bunch of administrators that keeps sort of changing
the game so much and that that's where it ends up? Oh?
Speaker 4 (13:40):
I think well, like, I think the interesting thing about
a solution when you're talking about complex games like ours,
is not one. So the three things you mentioned I
think are really really important. You know, people are not
playing rugby like they used to. There's other options for
our youngsters. You know, we're talking about you know, online
(14:04):
online gaming now where they're getting millions of viewers and
stuff like that. You know, we're struggling to fill stadiums
at NPC. You know where if you don't change fast now,
then you you lose a little bit of that. It's
not a game for everybody anymore, you know, because it's
an anaerobic game. That's not the player's fault. It's just
that it stops start. So how do we speed the
(14:25):
game up?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
You know? How do we make it faster? How do
we make it more enjoyable?
Speaker 4 (14:28):
How do we make it so that you don't engage
with your phone while you're watching it on TV? You know,
for me, that's the greatest challenge you can have. If
you have if you're looking at your phone, then the games.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Not entertaining exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Tell me about the surf park. I've been lucky enough
to hear you talk about it before. But quite visionary
and you know, like and quite exciting. So people won't know,
So tell them a bit about what's coming and what
what you're what you're thinking is around it.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Probably for the last ten years in the surfing industry,
there's been a bit of an arms race around technology
for an artificial wave. I think the most famous one
is you know, Kelly Slater. Kelly Slater's wave is amazing,
but it's probably not that commercially viable. Because it only
has a wave every four minutes. So there's a technology
called wave Garden which produces you know, a thousand waves
(15:27):
an hour. So basically what you can do is have
fifteen surfers on the left hand side and fifteen surfers
on the right hand side and you get you know,
fifteen waves each per hour.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
How big is the poll?
Speaker 3 (15:42):
About six acres?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Huge?
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Huge, Yeah, it's huge, And so I'll translate it for
the nonsurfers, so you'll learn to surf a lot quicker
because it's a controlled environment. It's way more female friendly
because you actually don't have to hassle for any waves.
The third thing is, you know, I went out. We
(16:07):
call ourselves the gray headed Grommets. I'm why he beached
local and so I went out before I went to
the wave pool in Melbourne for the first time, and
the surf was pretty good and in an hour and
fifty I got four waves.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
I went to the Melbourne wave pool and in three
days and three sessions I got sixty six waves.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Right, And when you're getting to my age, that is
just it won't replace the sea, and we don't want
it to replace the sea, but it is better than
going to the gym.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
You know.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
I will be there three or four times a week.
So I've had a few people sort of talking to
me about it. I love this beautiful city we live in,
you know, and I'm very very proud to be an
Aucklander and we need to start acting like a major
city around the world. So when they first approached me
about possibly putting one in Auckland, I just jumped at it.
(17:00):
I was very very hard on the people initially because
I've been approached by a whole lot of tie kickers,
but these guys have been incredible. We've got the land,
we've got the permission, and.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Now where is it going to be?
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Very flat?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Yeah, so you know where the petrol station is on
the left and the ski places on the right, it's
on the other side of the road. Yeah, And so
for me, it's about creating a community center where you
can go as a family, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, that's what I was going to talk to you about,
because you've got it's more than just surfing, right, It's
and you know, you were sort of saying, you know,
potentially you could go and spend the day and you
can never surf in the morning and then be able
to plug in and do a few hours work and
then have a surf in the afternoon and get home.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And is that still the vision.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
To totally Like, we obviously want to have food and beverage,
but we want it to be somewhere where New Zealand
families can go and spend the day. You know, you
can if you're a keen surfer, you can be surfing
out the back while your kids are in the front
of the pool, you know, playing and learning how to surf.
We want to have, you know, things that the families
(18:09):
can do. We want to make sure that if you
want to go and meet someone for a coffee, it's
a really cool place to meet without going for a surf. So,
you know, I think that the future is about creating
community hubs and up there and very flat. You know,
there's just an incredible amount of housing going in. You know,
I used to I used to go up that way surfing.
(18:30):
I mean, you know, right through that area now is incredible.
So it's a really really exciting project. It's been it's
been really interesting for me to be involved. You know,
I'm just really excited about actually getting into it. We're
starting to do the earthworks this earthwork season. So yeah,
it's been really cool.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
And we're going to talk about mental health a bit
more in the second segment. But you know you've said
before that that surfing and I actually dated a surfer
for quite some time and he would say that was
the best thing for his mental health was getting out
on the board and just their time out and clearing
the brain.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
And would you still say.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
That, Yes, I would.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
So for me, I knew I was very very unwell
when I actually went surfing to get that relief and
I never got it. And that was really really scary
when I was full on into my depression and I
still didn't know what it was.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Normally that would normally it would be enough, it would
be like, okay, pull on.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Like I'm in the preventative space now.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
So the things that I've learned over the last sort
of thirty years about my mental health and how I
can look after myself, it's all preventative. You know, I
said to someone the other day and you might understand this,
How good were the eighties? Like we used to smoke cigarettes,
drink piss, eat pies and no one gave a shiteah
because no one knew, right.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Then by the end of the eighties, people saying maybe
you shouldn't spoke, you know, like we used to hear
round cigarettes and the all back Changer room and we
had five Steinlaggers before we left.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
You know. By the end of the eighties, everybody's sort
of saying.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Well, you know, we know about heart disease now, and
we know that smoking cause so you know, diet and
all these things came in, and I think it's not
dissimilar to mental health. So we've got this awareness now,
but people do not know how to do the preventative stuff,
you know. So I was talking to a made of
mine the other day, you know, and he wasn't too well,
and I said, well, what are you doing for your
(20:28):
mental health? You know what really chills you out? He said,
I love golf and I said, shuit up. When did
your last play golf? He said a month ago, you know.
And this is part of the problem with surfing. I
know it's a great preventative thing and I need it,
but how often do I get to do it. That's
why I'm so excited about the wave pool, because I
can actually go easy and get that you know, get
that preventive stuff. So you know, I think that one
(20:51):
of the scariest things when you're in the hell, which
is depression and mental health, is you don't get enjoyment
out of anything.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah, all right, He's talk about more about that when
we come back. And I also want to talk about
you being a visionary, right, welcome back, OKAJK. You came
(21:19):
up in conversation and my very first podcast of this season,
and I had Rick Salizo Witten.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
He's a good friend of yours.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
He's my best mate.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Yeah, we've been friends since school. He was a scary
individual at school. He imagine this is a movie from
a long way ago. But Quadrophenia, Yeah, Loped's Northern England overcoach.
That was Ricardo and then I had to look at
his fat ass because he was my number eight and
I was a halfback for the De la cell Onirse fifteen.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
So yeah, but he said you're a visionary.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
That he described you as a visionary very much.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
And he would say all of my ideas generally he
came from Jka and then and then it's me that
ham that then sort of packs them up and runs
with it.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Yeah. I don't know.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Well, Ricardo's a genius in his own right, you know anyone.
I remember meeting Lucano Benetton once, right, and I said
to Lucano Benetton, you know we're flying around on his
private jet. Believe it or not, he's a butcher boy
friend already with a roof of from Christ Chre. It's
flying in a private jet. So we took the opportunity
to ask the guy who owned it, you know, how
(22:30):
did you make so much money? And he said, I
invented color. He said, before me, there was black, white,
and gray. And I got up one morning and my
sister cleaned my white jumper and it came out red,
and so I was pinkish red, and he said.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I was so embarrassed.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
But I walked to work that morning and forty people
asked to buy my jumper. So I went home and
I created United Colors of Benetton. Tell you that story,
because the interesting thing about Ricardo He's always had the
ability to be ahead of what is coming next.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I talked to him.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
About it, and I think that's an incredible I think
that's an incredible ability. He also has the ability to
connect with an audience and you know, for me, I
think that in this industry that is that is really
unique now, you know, media and television and is just
(23:33):
a really intriguing industry at the moment. You know, he's
he's got this incredible ability I think visionary. I think
he's the only one who listens to me really sit down,
and I also see things.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
That I think can can make change.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
You know, in the early days, I felt that athletes
didn't have a voice and that and I and I'm
critical now as well because back then we didn't have
a voice. And then I think there was this period
through you know, sports cafe and stuff where you could
meet and understand the person and they would have a voice,
(24:14):
you know, and then we had superstars like Mark Alice
that you know, not only was he a great rugby
and rugby league player, he was this incredible talent. And
so you know, for me, it was about expressing that
and I talked to him about it and go, yeah,
that's a good idea, and then he'd put all the greatness.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Around m Because there is a difference between having ideas
and then actually following through and launching them and doing
things right.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Yeah, exactly. And I'm not a detailed person.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
So I think with Ricardo and I, he's always had
the ability to capture the you know, the idea, but
then go, okay, I see it going here and then
doing it and creating and growing it and then turning
it into something.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Being an ideas person or a visionary. Is that innate
in you or is it something that can be learned.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
I've battled with self esteem for a long long time,
so you know, one of the one of the problems
I had that infected my mental health is I have
a what I call a dumb shark. You know, I
think I'm dumb. I got told I was dumb at school.
I've never passed an examine my life. So it's taken
me many, many years to accept that. Possibly, like I'd
(25:32):
think of millions of things and they just be don't
be stupid, JK.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
You know.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
So part of my mental journey has been making peace
with my sharks.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
You know.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
I had an impost shark, I had a dumb shark,
I had a guilt shark. I had I want to
be like shark, you know, and they were all influencing
me and my ability to be the best I could be.
And so I still have a whole lot of different
ideas and now I will share them with people and
(26:07):
I take it or leave it.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
I don't worry too much about it.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Are we ambitious enough in New Zealand? Do you think?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah? I think that New Zealanders.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
You know, it was really interesting, you know, Christopher Luxen
being taken through the media for making profit out of
a house.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
I just wonder whether that's been a big part of
our culture that we need to address.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Like, you know, I love successful people. And when I
say success, if you're successful financially, I think good on you.
If you're successful politically, I think good on you. If
you're a successful mum or a successful dad and your
kids are good kids, that is success. But I just
think New Zealand, New Zealand, we need to be very
(26:59):
careful that we don't take this humility that is very
positive in our culture a little bit too far and
start beating people up.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
For being successful.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
And I'm using the Prime Minister because I think it's
a very interesting it's a very interesting personality to pick on.
But I don't like it when we start attacking success
in any field. Right If that's financially, good on you. Yeah,
as long as you haven't done a duval.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
But it's kind of almost like, you know, I get
into the gender politics quite a bit, and I always
say that, you know, I'm a feminist and I encourage
woman and I did a lot of work in that area.
But it doesn't mean we have to beat others down,
you know what I mean, Like I want to see
men succeed.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I want to see women succeed.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
You know. For me, that's what it's about. And it's
a bit the same, whether it's financial or whatever it is.
It's just like, you know, it's sort of sitting there
and pointing and blaming, whereas ex we could be encouraging
and I'd love to give you the hand to get
yourself and it's just but instead it's knocked them down,
knock them down.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Yeah, And I agree with you. I think that, you know,
I think there takes a certain percentage of extremism might
be the wrong word, exaggeration in feminism, in gay rights,
and a whole lot of different stuff for us to
then come back to a sensible middle, right, because if
(28:30):
we didn't have some of the amazing women and you know,
I was brought up by three women, so For me,
I don't see feminism. I see women as the greatest
asset in my life that I could not live without.
So for me, I don't see it. You know, people
I don't see race either, like I just see New Zealand.
So but for me, it's sometimes you need a little
(28:54):
bit of going too far for us to come back
to the middle. And when you get back to the middle,
some of those people are then isolated because they haven't
had the ability to go okay, right.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
You know.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
The gay parade, right totally agreed with it for a
long time, but when it steps over the line into vulcarity,
I go, well, what's the purpose because that's just now
a show? Because I think gay rights are fundamental, I
need we need to do this, feminine rights, all that
sort of stuff. But then we need to come back to,
you know, the happy medium.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
So that yeah of society.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
That's where I sort of sit on it.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
So what do you mean by vulgarity? Then you just perhaps,
I mean, it's not quite the middle of the day,
is it. But it's a street, a.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
Bunch of nuns, a bunch of people dressed up as
nuns with the ass cut out of the the.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Habit, so the general public don't need to see that
sort of thing, and it's too fat.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
I just think it's a step too far. Is that
really promoting.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Gay rights?
Speaker 4 (30:02):
You know, look, that's that's just that's just my opinion.
I think that, you know, when you talked about feminism before,
you need to push the boundaries to get get a
wrong a wrong situation right right, So you need to
make sure that you're pushing the boundaries. But then once
(30:24):
we think it's at a at a place where it's accepted,
we need to come back to it.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
And I mean, you talked about the eighties and it's
quite interesting when you think about that with gay rights.
It's like by Craky, they're pretty much wounded it then
and it was you know, you people were hiding their sexuality.
It was this, you know, and now when you look
at how far we've come and still got a way
to go at some level. But as you say, it's
I want to same mainstream because it's not the right
words either, is it. But it's just such a different world,
(30:52):
you know how good.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I mean, you know, I'm an eighties child. We used to.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Use, you know, words that that are just totally inappropriate
now and rightly so, but a lot of it was
around our own ignorance. And so the the the you know,
the the the people who pushed the boundaries back then
also educated us. So you know, we're in a way,
we're in a way better space now for it, you
(31:18):
know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
I don't know how we got on that subch.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I don't know what we got down there, but there
we go. We did.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So let's talk a bit about mental health, because look,
for everything that you've done, you know, in my personal
opinion is that that will be you'll give back to
New Zealand. Is that you know, you were one of
the first that stood out and put your face in
front of it. You were you know, for particularly for
those blokes out there, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
But man, it was a ride for you to get
to that place. And I mean, I remember you. I've
been lucky.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Enough to hear before, and you know your discussion of
being in a hotel room has stuck with me, and
so it must be it must be pretty powerful if
it's still in the back of my mind.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Do you mind telling people there?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (32:04):
So I mean we're talking. Yeah, Like for me, I
didn't know this at the time. My reference to mental
health was one flow of the Crooko's nest. So I
thought that if I spoke to my doctor, I'm going
to get locked up with Jack Nicholson and chief of
the Big American Indian gay And so I was hiding
(32:25):
my mental health. I wasn't talking to anyone about it.
I was an anxiety based depressant found that post So
I was having anxiety attacks and ignoring them. So I
was going back to relative normal.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
And you were all black then yet Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
I remember going one morning to radio holder Key to
Kevin Black's studio, and it was seven o'clock in the morning.
You know, I was going in to talk rugby. There
was a test match that week. We're talking shit. He
you know, I don't know what Black he was on, man,
but he was bouncing off the walls, opened a bottle
of champagne, had a glass of champagne.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
You know, this is from seven to seven twenty in
the morning.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
You know, right, there's like bomb You're in the bomb
toy with all this energy boom. I drive, I go
down and I sit in my car and I'm paralyzed.
I can't move because the first time that I had
a suicidal rumination. So I felt that if I drove
my car, I was going to drive off the Harbor Bridge,
(33:23):
and I didn't know if I could control myself not
doing that or driving into a lamppost at one hundred
and fifty k. So I sat there for an hour,
sweating and you know, frozen. And then I drove home
very slowly, and I went to bed and fell asleep,
which was which was not something that was that common
(33:44):
back then when I was unwell, and I woke up
and felt okay, I thought, shit, I'm not having champagne
in the morning anymore.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
That good for you.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
So once again ignored it, and so I didn't know
what was happening. And then one day the anxiety attack
just didn't go away. So it was a constant. So
I say this, you know, a minute feels like an hour,
an hour feels like a day, and a day feels
like a week. And at the end of every day
I was also struggling with suicide I ruminations. I never
(34:14):
planned mown suicide, so for that I feel internally grateful,
but I was thinking about suicide, and at the end
of every day I was just exhausted. And then I
went away on an all black tour, and I was
away from my comfort. Although I hadn't spoken to anyone,
I felt comfortable, you know, around family and around home,
(34:37):
and I had some escape routes. And I just had
the worst tour ever, just struggling to survive, mentally, hiding
it from everybody, living a lie, suicidal ruminations.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
But I was lying in bed on the.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Tenth floor of the Hilton and Buenos Aidas and.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Window was open.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
I just finished an anxiety attack, and by the end
of the day, my anxiety attacks were then mental attached
to suicidal rumination. And then I'd start shaking physically and
I'd shake, and I just finished that. I was just
sick of fighting, you know, I was sick of fighting it.
So I decided that I was going to run and
(35:24):
jump out the window. And courage is a funny word
when you're talking about this. I don't know if it's
the right word, but it's the only word I can
come up with. And so I was building up the
courage to run and jump ou out of the window
and going through the process of what.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
And why and what would happen and that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
And I'm lying in bed, Yeah, yeah, know, I'm lying
in bed trying to get the courage. Yeah, trying to
go go now John, you know, run and jump. And
Michael Owns, who was my roommate, said to me, JK,
you've got a good heart, and he saved my life.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
I never jumped out the window.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
But the thing that I said to myself every second
for the next sort of forty eight fifty sixty hours
of what it was was JK, you've got a good heart.
I said that to myself every second because I was
too scared to think of what the other thought.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I suppose that's good advice for people, right,
is that actually you don't have to solve every problem.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
If you're worried about a friend, you know, you don't,
you know.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
But actually sometimes it's the more simple things that we
do for others that can mean the most.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Is that, yeah, yeah, look, I think you know.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
I often say, don't try and be the expert, just
be there. It's probably the best advice.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
You know.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Often we want to help. Yeah, you know, it's but
like your kids, they come to you the problem and
you don't know the answer, but you make shit up
because that's what you you think.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
You should do as a parent.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
But often it's best just to listen and then ask
how what do you need from me? And often just
listening is enough sometimes, you know, I remember my brother
in law came to me, came with me to the psychiatrist.
That was the greatest thing he could have ever done
for me, because I was so embarrassed I didn't want
(37:27):
to go. You know, he didn't give a shit. He
walked in with me and and that was the greatest
help I could have had at the time. So, you know,
it's it's it was a turning point in my life.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Can we talk about the preventative because you touched on
it and that's certainly what Mighty is right?
Speaker 1 (37:52):
What does preventive mean?
Speaker 2 (37:53):
How do we look after ourselves and our children better?
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Earlier?
Speaker 4 (37:59):
So, about five or six years ago, I woke up
and felt that I'd failed. I've been the face of
mental health in our country for fifteen years and we
have the worst suicide rate in the OCD. Right, so
I'd failed and failure. Like you know, people get a
bit upset when I say that because they think I'm
(38:21):
worried about it. I'm not worried about it, because what
it did make me do is relook at it. So
I re looked at it and the problem that I
had as I went on this journey from being incredibly
clinically depressed and unwell so surviving to thriving.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
And what I did.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
Is I learned what I call the six pillars of
preventative mental health, right. And so what I decided to
do was most kids were still learning English, maths and science,
but they weren't learning anything that they needed that they
might be divorced, they might go broke, they might lose
(39:07):
a job, you know. So we created Mighty and with
help from a whole lot of people, we built a
curriculum for primary schools that teach our tamariki about you know,
about mental health and how they can implement that in
their days.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
And so are the teachers teaching it just as part
of everything.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Right across the curriculum. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
And what we do is we supply the teachers that
go in and teach the teachers. We don't teach the kids,
We teach the teachers, and then they put this curriculum
based mental health program right across the school and it's
having an incredible effect. We're in two hundred schools and
there's fourteen hundred primary schools in New Zealand and we
(39:52):
want to get to them all and we think that
within a generation we become one of the best mental
health countries the.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
OCD and that is that.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
So it's kind of teaching that adaptive resilience, right, because
we get it as we get older.
Speaker 4 (40:06):
Yeah, I love you too, Paula. You know I hate
that word resilience.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Well I went into a bunch of fifteen year olds
and I said, what's resilience? And they said, that's our
ship word our parents use, you know. So I'll say
this to you.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I'll say this to you.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
Our children need a toolbox, a mental toolbox, right to
deal with whatever the world throws of them, because resilience
to you might not be resilience to make. So that's
the problem, right, So we're using these generalized words.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Well, what I was going to say to you was
as well, is that I would be considered one of
the most resilient people I know, and that a lot
of people know, and yet I'm as messed up and
screwed up as anyone.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
So it's not the answer.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
No, no, but that's beautiful. But can you articulate. So
this is what I say, love is a verb. Yeah, right,
And then everyone's dictionary the meaning of love underneath has
different meanings, right.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Got that?
Speaker 4 (41:10):
So if I said in Paula Bennett's dictionary, I've just
opened a resilience, tell me underneath what that means?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Do you want me to answer there?
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
So for me, it's the ability to bounce back when
life is treating you as it does, as it just
does because of circumstances and everything else. And yeah, it
is that in a strength that means that you can
keep on somewhat of an even keel.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
Okay, So tell me one thing you would do when
you get up and you're having a bad day.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
I would talk.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
To best friend, to talk to someone, family, husband, sit down,
and I take time out by myself. So I got
when I was in politics, I suppose my bad mental
health would manifest itself, that I would get physically unwell
to the point where i'd be hospitalized. I remember once,
so doctor went and they said, and they wrung me
(42:10):
now late and they said, we're actually really concerned about you.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
It's your choice. Do you want to go to hospital?
Speaker 2 (42:14):
And I went, Yet, it's the only way I can
take time out, you know, it's the only way. So
then I learned to not get to that point and
mine was having time alone perfect.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
So that is resilience for you, right, And all we
need to do is teach how Tamariki that when this
situation arises, here's the toolbox that I have, right, And
like I've got a lot of friends that go for
a run. Yeah, right, that might be part of your toolbox.
(42:47):
And I was talking to Jenny May the other day,
I'm going off the word well being because it's too broad,
do you know. And we've really got to personalize this
stuff as out. And I also created another company called
Groove where I want to use technology to deliver some
(43:07):
of these things in the workplace because I prefer to
talk about performance care. You know, you've got to perform
poorer at work. I've got to perform that. We love performance,
But how do I care for myself and how do
I care for you so that you get the best performance?
And then how digitally can we put that in our
day And so that's that part of my inspiration is
(43:30):
teach our kids to have the toolbox when they when
you know, and a nine year old it might be
losing a group of friends. You know, eleven year old's
going to high school, you know, and sometimes we go,
you know, get over it.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
We've all been through it.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
That's not the answer because that you know, the extroverted
kid's going to love it. The introverted kid's going to
be shitting themselves. So what toolboxes can we give them?
And then in the workplace, how can we you know,
there's no work life balance anymore. You know, you're on
your phone every second, everyone's on their computers. But there's
just so much more inputs into our brain. So there's
(44:10):
no natural switch off of the brain, right and unless
you take control now, the world has taken control of you.
And it's very hard to get that control back. You know,
our minds are speeding up. We're not resting them instead
of sitting there. And I say, I said to a
group of leaders the other day, when was the last
time you were bored?
Speaker 3 (44:29):
And they all went, well, shit, right, because we picked
the phone up. And I'm as guilty as anyone, don't
get me wrong, right, But what what I try and
do is take control of my mental health on a
daily basis and make sure i'm implementing the things that
I know.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Look and it's all individual and it's all different totally.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
So I tell you, I'll tell you an intersting story. Right,
I'm I'm sore. There's two things that have happened.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
You know. I've gone to the doctor and he's told
me I've got depression and it's an illness, not a weakness.
And he tells me I should go on to antidepressants
and go and see a psychiatrist. And I tell him
to pass off and walk out.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
Being an idiot. Anyway, I go back three weeks later.
I had a little bit of hope because I thought, shit,
it's an illness, not a weakness, because it takes away
your self esteem, takes away your self confidence, and takes
away your enjoyment in life. So you feel pretty shitty.
And so I went back. I went on the antidepressants,
and I went and saw someone. I went saw some
person first, which was not a nice experience, and I
(45:35):
can tell that story it another day. But the second
person I went to was amazing doctor Louis Armstrong, and
she took me on this journey of first thing she
said is have.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
You accepted your illness? And I hadn't.
Speaker 4 (45:48):
I was still fighting it, which takes up a lot
of energy. So I say to people, you know, never
give up, but stop fighting. And because I stopped fighting
it and accepted it, and then I started working on it.
But just one thing about the brain. She said to me, JK,
how would you like to try meditation? I'm going, wow,
that's pretty freaky, Like, you know, if you did yoga
(46:09):
back then, you're a dope smoking, surfy freak.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
You know, no one did bloody meditation. I didn't even
know what it was.
Speaker 4 (46:15):
So I went and did it because I was prepared
to try anything. And it was terrible, like absolutely terrible.
Started getting anxious again, so I thought I'd failed, and
I thought I've done something wrong, you know. And I
went back to her and she said, no, JK, like
twenty two or twenty four percent of the world's population
(46:36):
have a ruminating mind. And I go, should I can't
even spell that as that Bob the Monkey, Bob the
Monkey in my head, right, and I'll explained Bob the
Monkey to you. So I Bob the Monkey and I
go to bed at night and I don't read Bob
the Monkey goes you JK. Shit, let's think about tomorrow.
(46:58):
Let's think about yesterday. Yes, think about shit that doesn't matter,
and him and I will be up TI two o'clock
in the morning.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Right, you've got Netflix.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Yeah, If I watch Netflix, if it doesn't engage my
brain in forty five seconds, Bob the Monkey's gone.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
Right, So that's a ruminating mind. So I'm an active relaxer. So,
for example, I do three things. I read, Bob the
monkey goes into his cage and has a banana. I cook,
Bob the monkey goes into his cache, heads banana. If
I play the guitar and I'm shit at it, Bob
the Monkey goes in his cage, has banana. So I
(47:34):
know that any one of those three things, on a
daily basis, I can disconnect my brain, right.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
And you have to do that. I have to do
this just highly wired.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
When on Well, sometimes I can go a few days
without it, but I generally don't. Right, So I know
that on a daily basis, I've got to do one
of those three things. Also, I talk about two birds
of one stone. I love cooking. My wife also loves
me cooking. Yeah right, yeah, So that's two birds with
one stone. And so the six pillars, So that's chill.
(48:08):
Do what are you doing for your mind that's outside
your work to you know? And I'm learning how to
read music. How do you connect?
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Right?
Speaker 4 (48:18):
And this is a really interesting one for you. So
I connect in three ways. I love the cell phone,
you know, talking to my son on the way here.
You know he's in Barcelona. How good is that? So
I enjoy technology, I love connecting with people. But I'm
also an introvert that enjoys being an extrovert. So I
read the book Quite by Suzanne Kane, which really changed
(48:38):
my life. So I know that when I'm an extrovert,
I need to get energy back. And I really enjoy
connecting with nature. So how do I put those in
my day?
Speaker 3 (48:47):
Right?
Speaker 4 (48:48):
Sometimes you can't do all three? But then move right?
What am I doing to move? How do I enjoy
something every single day? And what am I celebrating? And
if you put those six things is all built in
behavioral science in your day, then you are doing preventive
mental health. But my chill might be different to your chill.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
You might do later. You might do knitting.
Speaker 4 (49:10):
You know, I don't know what you like your time out,
So but if you do those six things.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
Then you're doing preventative mental health.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
And so you're teaching these kids via the mighty to
kind of think about how they're going to look after
themselves and their wellness if you're like, you know, totally
for their lives.
Speaker 4 (49:31):
I mean, if you're in New Zealand mail and you're
getting close to sixty. We grew up with three emotions, happy,
sad and angry. You know, we didn't know too many
other expressive words. And so yeah, it's just about teaching
them the rule book. But this is also about groove.
You know, how how do we go into businesses and say,
you know, we want people to perform, but we need
(49:53):
to be able to use their data. We want to
be able to integrate into their workday, but then also
give them the ability to take the time i'm out,
you know, like for me, it doesn't take me long
per day to look after my mental health.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
You know.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Okay, to in this segment, tell me what's what do
you think the best piece of advice you've ever been given?
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Perhaps just being told that you've got a good heart.
Speaker 4 (50:16):
Yeah, that was pretty big. My dad once said to me,
if you died tomorrow, would you be happy? He was
on his deathbed. He didn't die that time, which was great.
He died a year later.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
But I said, shit, what sort of question is that, dad?
Speaker 4 (50:32):
And he said, well, you go home and think about it, son,
and if I'm still alive tomorrow, we can talk about it.
Speaker 3 (50:39):
So I went home and I came.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
Back and you know, I came back in and I
had all the obvious answers. You know, I want to
see the kids grow up and all, you know, all
that sort of stuff, and he said, I know that, son,
that's a given.
Speaker 3 (50:49):
That wasn't my question.
Speaker 4 (50:52):
And I said, well, I can't really answer it, dad,
And he said, well, don't learn how to live life
by touching death like I did.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
He said.
Speaker 4 (51:01):
I had a heart attack at fifty nine, and he said,
I touched death and then I started living. He said,
I didn't change much. I still went back to work
and that sort of stuff. And it took me about
six months to actually go, I'm going to put everything
in my day today that's really really important to me.
(51:21):
So if I die tomorrow, i'd be happy. And I
can fairly say that if I died tomorrow, I don't
want to die obviously, then i'd be happy because today
I'll tell everybody that I love them, I will.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
Do what I want to do.
Speaker 4 (51:37):
I'll be well mentally because I look after myself mentally.
So that's probably the best bit of advice of it.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Very powerful, very powerful Okay podcast called Ask Many Things.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
So this is an opportunity if you want to take it,
but you don't have to because I always hope someone won't,
but they always do.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
Where you can ask me something.
Speaker 3 (52:11):
Why politics?
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Ah, It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Because when I got to university, I was marching in
the streets and I found this voice. And then I
and i'd been on welfare. I then was studying you know,
the system if you like, and all the rest of it,
and I felt that I had a set of unique
experiences and actually talent once I found that voice, that
(52:41):
I could change it.
Speaker 3 (52:43):
What were you marching for?
Speaker 1 (52:45):
I was marching against in the national government. How ironic
likeneteen ninety five.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
I've got this wonderful about I would have been university fees.
And you noticed when the billion dollar debts were coming
in and it was the first time and I would
have marched about anything because I just had found this.
I'd been this very poor you know, Solomma was told
by her father constantly that you know, there's no room
for a woman a girl's voice, and you know, and
(53:15):
shut up. And so all of a sudden, I just
found the strength and this voice, and it was you know, and.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
I just realized that actually, actually I could.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Form an argument and I could have an opinion. And
I wasn't as dumb as I'd been told I was
for twenty five years, and you know, so that for me,
and so then you start to think.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
I started thinking about how how could I use it?
Speaker 3 (53:35):
What was just single greatest achievement out as a politician.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
Well, other people have opinions, but for me, it was difficult.
We don't care about that, Yeah, it was for me.
It was definitely the work in welfare and particularly with
teen mums.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
So that was my passion.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
I'd been one, and I knew that we could do
it better and we could do it differently.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
So I felt that if we educated.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
And respected the mothers, then they would raise their children
to be successful and have a better life. And so
I put a lot into teen moms and dads, but
it was.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Predominantly mothers to be really blunt, beautiful. You go the
guy Okay, it's so good to see John. Thank you
so much for your time today.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
If anyone wants more information on the Sir John Cowan
Foundation and Mighty go and have a lock on the website.
It's easy to find. I had a Google yesterday. It's
all there. Look out for the surf park park that's
coming our way. Yeah, and get into lots of things.
So all the best for you for the rest of
your year. Go and see those kids and squeeze that grandchild.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
Again for me, exactly need a baby. You need a
baby in the family.
Speaker 2 (54:50):
Just pulling it out there to the nieces and nephews.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
And that's it for.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Another episode of Asking Me Anything. If you've enjoyed this episode,
please follow Ask Me Anything on iHeartRadio, where if you
get your podcasts you check out some of the past
fabulous guests. Rhaps Alizo is one and I'll be back
next Sunday with another one.
Speaker 1 (55:06):
I'm Paula Bennett Ask Me Anything. Goodbye,
Hello.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
I am Paula Benatt and welcome to my New Zealand
Herald podcast. Asked me anything, one thing I've learned in
life is it's never too late to learn something new.
So on this podcast I talked to people from all
(00:22):
walks of life to hear about how they got to
where they are, get some advice and guidance on some
of life's biggest questions today. It is one of our
greats in one of our rugby grats, but it's not
just rugby that Sir John Cowan as well known for.
He does tremendous work in the area of mental health.
We got told earlier this season. He's an incredible visionary
(00:44):
and the man behind so many of rex Aalizo's ideas.
He's also behind a newly announced world class, one hundred
million dollar surve part being developed in Auckland.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
John also founded Mighty.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
It is about primary prevention and strengthening children's mental health
and in the early years. I'm very excited to have
Sir John Kewan here.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Hi JK, Hi, Paula.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
How are you? How is that he's looking forward to
coming and seeing you this story?
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Oh good, I was. We'll have a good yarn.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
We will good old fat yarn. As my kids were saying,
love us a fat yarn, Dad.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Yeah, it's good.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
I think thank goodness for podcasts because it does give
us a bit more in depth because everything seems to
be a sixty second any thing we're looking for these days,
isn't it.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
I think the world has got better choices now, right,
you can, I can choose. I like long format because
I learned so much more. But I think the interesting
thing from a mental health point of view, they say
now that if you want to keep someone's attention, you
only have six seconds.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Six seconds now Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
Don't know whether I believe that shit, but anyway.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
So I was supposed to quick far questions, but I
thought and steered that you could tell us about your wine.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Well, I've just got back from Italy doing some more
research and development as I do.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, because I've been lucky enough to drink it.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Yeah, and even take some home with me, so you know,
like I yes, So, which.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
What's your favorite?
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Tell us a bit about the varietals and what's your
favorab Well, I'll tell you a little.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
Bit about the story because it's more about people.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
So I came back to live in New Zealand probably
eleven years ago now, and my daughter, who was a
semi professional volleyballer, decided not to come back to New Zealand.
She wanted to stay up there anyway. After a couple
of years she decided she was going to come down
and live and got old end z but wanted to
carry on being a professional sportswoman. And as you know
(02:43):
in sport and New Zealand, especially in volleyball in New Zealand,
there's no money. So I said, well, you know, I've
got this incredible passion for wine and food. Why don't
we start a company. You've just studied business and marketing
and you know pastory exams. Why don't we just put
it straight into practice? But the idea other things?
Speaker 1 (03:03):
So how long has it been going?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Probably ten years now. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
And the interesting thing for me when I came back
to New Zealand and I walked into a supermarket. A
when I left, you didn't sell wine at supermarket. You
went to your local wine shop, and there's just this
massive array of wines and it was sort of confusing
and frustrating.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
So, you know, if you don't know a lot about wine.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
What do you do you know if I go to
your place that I want to spend fourteen bucks because
you think I'm a cheap ass, you know, so sort
of going on price and didn't really know. So one
of our ideas was to totally connect to the vineyards.
So it was about the people that make the wine.
So a lot of my friends were you know, wine
growers and makers in Italy and then adding stories to it.
(03:52):
But really our other thing is that we want to
have value for money in that category, because you just
want that's all I want. You know, if I buy
a New Zealand pinonois, try that there's like three million
of them, how do I know that that's good quality?
So the idea is I go and personally try the wines,
which obviously pulled you and I'd be very very good
(04:13):
at and I'm becoming an expert at trying wines. And
then I picked the wines that we like, and then
we associate them either with the vineyard or with the
you know, with a personality. So I've named wines after
you know, my mother and father in law and my wife,
all sorts of different stuff. So there's an emotional connection
to me.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Where do you predominantly sell We sell.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
A lot online, We've sell into a lot of restaurants, Yes,
in New Zealand and New Zealand, Yes, New Zealand based.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
So talking about your kids, I mean they're all so
successful in it. So as you say, you've got your
daughter and the company with you doing the wine, and
then we were just talking about Nico, he was an
all white and playing football in Italy.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
And then we've got Luca who's.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Part of the Luna Rosa America's Cup team, which is
just kind of outstanding. So do you think they just
like least whose success are they following or they just
always had a good drive and determination.
Speaker 3 (05:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (05:07):
I think sport has always been an important part of
education in our house. My wife was a semi professional
volleyballer obviously, you know, I was in the amateur area,
but probably was professional rugby player most of my life.
So they grew up with sport. But we also wanted
(05:28):
them to choose their own sort of field. And it's hard,
it's hard on our youngsters now in sport, it's pretty
dynamic life to have. So I just wanted them to
be the best that they can be and follow their
sort of dreams, and you know they've had you know,
my son Niko has had so much adversity, you know,
(05:49):
in his football career, you know, and he's always just
getting up and trying to be the best that he
can be.
Speaker 3 (05:57):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
And I think one of the biggest questions that they
asked me, Dad, you know what if I'm not good enough?
And I think every young person would ask themselves that,
and I probably asked myself that when I was young.
But that question often can make you not try.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
Yeah, right, because you're a failure.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Yeah, and just not being good enough up to your
own expectations or someone's else. So often, you know, I
always said to them that if you give it your
everything and you only play third division, or if you
only make club rugby or whatever, but that's your limit,
(06:41):
then when you get to my age, you'll be okay
with it. It's when you get to my age and
you look back on life and you think, I wish
I could have or should have done a bit more. So,
understanding your level is where you need to get to,
and then there's a process about accepting that.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
But I think that's.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
All walks of life, right, But for me that was
in politics. Yeah, so everyone was sort of well not everyone.
There was the odd person that said, why aren't you
going for the top job? And it was like, Oh,
this is my wheelhouse, this is where I'm good.
Speaker 4 (07:12):
Yeah, yeah, and I think you know, I'm sixty soon,
and you know, I've learned to talk to my ego,
right instead of just ignoring it and let.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
It drive you.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (07:30):
So often your ego will be making decisions for you
and with you in a subconscious way. So how do
I say to my ego when I'm making decisions? And
as you get a bit older, you start contemplating this
stuff a whole lot more.
Speaker 3 (07:51):
What part of this decision is actually my ego? Right?
Speaker 4 (07:55):
And I'm pretty sure in politics you know sometimes the
top job you would think about doing the top job, right,
but you but.
Speaker 3 (08:04):
It might be your ego.
Speaker 4 (08:05):
But if you have, if you have the ability to
say this is my warehouse, this is where I'm really happy,
then you know that that is a blessing in disguise.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
Yeah. I'm just one hundred percent agree.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
The only times I would have an inkling of it would.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Be and I would have called it my vanity.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
You know what I mean. But as you say, it
was ego, you know, like it was just like someone
thinks they can maybe that's gone to go, but I
don't want it. Yeah, and then going back to that
place really quickly. But you're rider and you do get better.
So grandchild, You got your first grandchild.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Yeah, a little CJ. Arrived four and a half months ago,
and that's really cool. We're obviously in an Italian household,
so I was.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Gonna say, because the boys are in Italy, aren't they?
Speaker 4 (08:47):
But my daughter's here, yeah, and her husband's here and
they live with us. So I'm very feel, very fortunate
that I spend a lot of my days with my grandchild.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
The time suckers, aren't they.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Yeah, No, it's great.
Speaker 4 (08:59):
I mean, you know, I think you're talking about six seconds,
and you know you have more inputs in your brain
today than your grandparents had in a lifetime.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
Right, So.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
We don't have any downtime because it's invaded with technology.
So you know, we're even taking our phones to the toilet.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Now.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
I think the beauty of a grandchild is they take
your whole attention. You can't look at your phone, you
can't do anything else, So it's actually been a really
nice process, reflective process on slowing down like that.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
I like that. All right, we'll better talk rugby, but
really someone will be interested.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
Nice.
Speaker 4 (09:45):
I do love the game, you know, of course I do.
Like I'm a butcher from Mangady. Yeah, you know this
game has given me everything in life, you know, I remember.
I'll tell you a funny story. This friend of mine
in Italy came to me and said, JK, would you
run the Venice Marathon? And I just laughed. I said, shit,
(10:06):
I can't even run to the letterbox anymore, mate like.
And he said, would you do the last two K?
And I said, And they build bridges through Venice. It's
actually spectacular. And I said, yeah, I could probably run
the last two K. And he said, we want to
raise some money for people tired. Yeah exactly, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (10:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
I just dropped me off the last two K and
I'll pretend that I've cruised done. We're raising money for
rugby guy who's a tetraplegic. And I said, oh, yeah, okay,
tell me the story. And he said, well, you know
this guy broke his neck after the fifth th ree set,
So anyway, I do this thing. Yeah, sure, no problem,
(10:44):
run Venus. I mean it was more. It was so
beautiful for me to run through Venus. Blah blah blah.
And I go around to his house and I'm taking
two thousand dollars. I walk in and here he is,
like and he couldn't stop thanking me. His mum and
dad were there.
Speaker 3 (11:02):
His mom, his dad's a baker, gets up at five.
Speaker 4 (11:04):
O'clock in the morning, goes to where it comes home,
lifts him out of bed, bathes his mum's twenty four
to seven nurse, and he's thinking me, and I'm going
I would hate me. Yeah, you know, how do you
how do you love the game? And John Color was
the name Junker, And I just thought the rugby has
(11:26):
taken everything away from you, and it's given me everything. Anyway,
I said, I don't know why I said it. I said,
I made I'm going to swim for you, and I'm
going to swim the straight of Messina. I don't know
where that came from, but anyway, we ended up swimming
for him and raising money over the next sort of
ten years, which was really cool. But you know, I
do love the game. It's given me so much. I
think it's got its challenges at the moment.
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Yeah, it does have a lot of challenges at the moment,
and so you can be quite harsh in your commentary
and you've been on the other end of it.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Yeah, Look, I don't don't.
Speaker 4 (11:57):
I try not to be personal.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
I just try and tell my truth.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
And I think there's been a since I grew up,
there's been a tendency for New Zealanders not to have
confrontation based on respect. You know, people, I have an opinion,
and I have a strong opinion, and I expect you
(12:24):
to push back because that will help me form my opinion. Right,
it's opinion, But often people perceive it as single minded,
you know, like, but really for me, it's if you
can't push back with a decent argument, then you don't
have one.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
So I was brought up like that. You know.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
One of my best mates, Ricardo and Salizo, we you know,
we argue about lots of stuff, but it's always based
on respect, and it's always based on the greater good,
you know. Like for me, Rugby at the moment is
an anaerobic game. I want to see it go back
to an aerobic game. I want to see more speed
in the game. I want to see the times of
(13:06):
game and play go up so that some of our
athletes start losing some size. I think that's going to
be better for everybody. I want the games to go
from you know, thirty four minutes real time to fifty
five minutes real time. I want our administration that's been
amateur since we've been professional to move faster.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
They don't.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
And is that just because and this is someone who
doesn't follow rugby me? And is that because you's just
been so many rule changes? Is it around some of
it around safety? Is it just or is it just
a whole bunch of administrators that keeps sort of changing
the game so much and that that's where it ends up? Oh?
Speaker 4 (13:40):
I think well, like, I think the interesting thing about
a solution when you're talking about complex games like ours,
is not one. So the three things you mentioned I
think are really really important. You know, people are not
playing rugby like they used to. There's other options for
our youngsters. You know, we're talking about you know, online
(14:04):
online gaming now where they're getting millions of viewers and
stuff like that. You know, we're struggling to fill stadiums
at NPC. You know where if you don't change fast now,
then you you lose a little bit of that. It's
not a game for everybody anymore, you know, because it's
an anaerobic game. That's not the player's fault. It's just
that it stops start. So how do we speed the
(14:25):
game up?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
You know? How do we make it faster? How do
we make it more enjoyable?
Speaker 4 (14:28):
How do we make it so that you don't engage
with your phone while you're watching it on TV? You know,
for me, that's the greatest challenge you can have. If
you have if you're looking at your phone, then the games.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Not entertaining exactly.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Tell me about the surf park. I've been lucky enough
to hear you talk about it before. But quite visionary
and you know, like and quite exciting. So people won't know,
So tell them a bit about what's coming and what
what you're what you're thinking is around it.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
Probably for the last ten years in the surfing industry,
there's been a bit of an arms race around technology
for an artificial wave. I think the most famous one
is you know, Kelly Slater. Kelly Slater's wave is amazing,
but it's probably not that commercially viable. Because it only
has a wave every four minutes. So there's a technology
called wave Garden which produces you know, a thousand waves
(15:27):
an hour. So basically what you can do is have
fifteen surfers on the left hand side and fifteen surfers
on the right hand side and you get you know,
fifteen waves each per hour.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
How big is the poll?
Speaker 3 (15:42):
About six acres?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Okay?
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (15:44):
Huge?
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Huge, Yeah, it's huge, And so I'll translate it for
the nonsurfers, so you'll learn to surf a lot quicker
because it's a controlled environment. It's way more female friendly
because you actually don't have to hassle for any waves.
The third thing is, you know, I went out. We
(16:07):
call ourselves the gray headed Grommets. I'm why he beached
local and so I went out before I went to
the wave pool in Melbourne for the first time, and
the surf was pretty good and in an hour and
fifty I got four waves.
Speaker 3 (16:21):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:21):
I went to the Melbourne wave pool and in three
days and three sessions I got sixty six waves.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Right, And when you're getting to my age, that is
just it won't replace the sea, and we don't want
it to replace the sea, but it is better than
going to the gym.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
You know.
Speaker 4 (16:38):
I will be there three or four times a week.
So I've had a few people sort of talking to
me about it. I love this beautiful city we live in,
you know, and I'm very very proud to be an
Aucklander and we need to start acting like a major
city around the world. So when they first approached me
about possibly putting one in Auckland, I just jumped at it.
(17:00):
I was very very hard on the people initially because
I've been approached by a whole lot of tie kickers,
but these guys have been incredible. We've got the land,
we've got the permission, and.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Now where is it going to be?
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Very flat?
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (17:16):
Yeah, so you know where the petrol station is on
the left and the ski places on the right, it's
on the other side of the road. Yeah, And so
for me, it's about creating a community center where you
can go as a family, you know.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
Yeah, that's what I was going to talk to you about,
because you've got it's more than just surfing, right, It's
and you know, you were sort of saying, you know,
potentially you could go and spend the day and you
can never surf in the morning and then be able
to plug in and do a few hours work and
then have a surf in the afternoon and get home.
Speaker 1 (17:47):
And is that still the vision.
Speaker 4 (17:49):
To totally Like, we obviously want to have food and beverage,
but we want it to be somewhere where New Zealand
families can go and spend the day. You know, you
can if you're a keen surfer, you can be surfing
out the back while your kids are in the front
of the pool, you know, playing and learning how to surf.
We want to have, you know, things that the families
(18:09):
can do. We want to make sure that if you
want to go and meet someone for a coffee, it's
a really cool place to meet without going for a surf. So,
you know, I think that the future is about creating
community hubs and up there and very flat. You know,
there's just an incredible amount of housing going in. You know,
I used to I used to go up that way surfing.
(18:30):
I mean, you know, right through that area now is incredible.
So it's a really really exciting project. It's been it's
been really interesting for me to be involved. You know,
I'm just really excited about actually getting into it. We're
starting to do the earthworks this earthwork season. So yeah,
it's been really cool.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
And we're going to talk about mental health a bit
more in the second segment. But you know you've said
before that that surfing and I actually dated a surfer
for quite some time and he would say that was
the best thing for his mental health was getting out
on the board and just their time out and clearing
the brain.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
And would you still say.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
That, Yes, I would.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
So for me, I knew I was very very unwell
when I actually went surfing to get that relief and
I never got it. And that was really really scary
when I was full on into my depression and I
still didn't know what it was.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Normally that would normally it would be enough, it would
be like, okay, pull on.
Speaker 3 (19:34):
Like I'm in the preventative space now.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
So the things that I've learned over the last sort
of thirty years about my mental health and how I
can look after myself, it's all preventative. You know, I
said to someone the other day and you might understand this,
How good were the eighties? Like we used to smoke cigarettes,
drink piss, eat pies and no one gave a shiteah
because no one knew, right.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
Then by the end of the eighties, people saying maybe
you shouldn't spoke, you know, like we used to hear
round cigarettes and the all back Changer room and we
had five Steinlaggers before we left.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
You know. By the end of the eighties, everybody's sort
of saying.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Well, you know, we know about heart disease now, and
we know that smoking cause so you know, diet and
all these things came in, and I think it's not
dissimilar to mental health. So we've got this awareness now,
but people do not know how to do the preventative stuff,
you know. So I was talking to a made of
mine the other day, you know, and he wasn't too well,
and I said, well, what are you doing for your
(20:28):
mental health? You know what really chills you out? He said,
I love golf and I said, shuit up. When did
your last play golf? He said a month ago, you know.
And this is part of the problem with surfing. I
know it's a great preventative thing and I need it,
but how often do I get to do it. That's
why I'm so excited about the wave pool, because I
can actually go easy and get that you know, get
that preventive stuff. So you know, I think that one
(20:51):
of the scariest things when you're in the hell, which
is depression and mental health, is you don't get enjoyment
out of anything.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Yeah, all right, He's talk about more about that when
we come back. And I also want to talk about
you being a visionary, right, welcome back, OKAJK. You came
(21:19):
up in conversation and my very first podcast of this season,
and I had Rick Salizo Witten.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
He's a good friend of yours.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
He's my best mate.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
Yeah, we've been friends since school. He was a scary
individual at school. He imagine this is a movie from
a long way ago. But Quadrophenia, Yeah, Loped's Northern England overcoach.
That was Ricardo and then I had to look at
his fat ass because he was my number eight and
I was a halfback for the De la cell Onirse fifteen.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
So yeah, but he said you're a visionary.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
That he described you as a visionary very much.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
And he would say all of my ideas generally he
came from Jka and then and then it's me that
ham that then sort of packs them up and runs
with it.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
Yeah. I don't know.
Speaker 4 (22:09):
Well, Ricardo's a genius in his own right, you know anyone.
I remember meeting Lucano Benetton once, right, and I said
to Lucano Benetton, you know we're flying around on his
private jet. Believe it or not, he's a butcher boy
friend already with a roof of from Christ Chre. It's
flying in a private jet. So we took the opportunity
to ask the guy who owned it, you know, how
(22:30):
did you make so much money? And he said, I
invented color. He said, before me, there was black, white,
and gray. And I got up one morning and my
sister cleaned my white jumper and it came out red,
and so I was pinkish red, and he said.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
I was so embarrassed.
Speaker 4 (22:51):
But I walked to work that morning and forty people
asked to buy my jumper. So I went home and
I created United Colors of Benetton. Tell you that story,
because the interesting thing about Ricardo He's always had the
ability to be ahead of what is coming next.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
I talked to him.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
About it, and I think that's an incredible I think
that's an incredible ability. He also has the ability to
connect with an audience and you know, for me, I
think that in this industry that is that is really
unique now, you know, media and television and is just
(23:33):
a really intriguing industry at the moment. You know, he's
he's got this incredible ability I think visionary. I think
he's the only one who listens to me really sit down,
and I also see things.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
That I think can can make change.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
You know, in the early days, I felt that athletes
didn't have a voice and that and I and I'm
critical now as well because back then we didn't have
a voice. And then I think there was this period
through you know, sports cafe and stuff where you could
meet and understand the person and they would have a voice,
(24:14):
you know, and then we had superstars like Mark Alice
that you know, not only was he a great rugby
and rugby league player, he was this incredible talent. And
so you know, for me, it was about expressing that
and I talked to him about it and go, yeah,
that's a good idea, and then he'd put all the greatness.
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Around m Because there is a difference between having ideas
and then actually following through and launching them and doing
things right.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
Yeah, exactly. And I'm not a detailed person.
Speaker 4 (24:44):
So I think with Ricardo and I, he's always had
the ability to capture the you know, the idea, but
then go, okay, I see it going here and then
doing it and creating and growing it and then turning
it into something.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Being an ideas person or a visionary. Is that innate
in you or is it something that can be learned.
Speaker 4 (25:08):
I've battled with self esteem for a long long time,
so you know, one of the one of the problems
I had that infected my mental health is I have
a what I call a dumb shark. You know, I
think I'm dumb. I got told I was dumb at school.
I've never passed an examine my life. So it's taken
me many, many years to accept that. Possibly, like I'd
(25:32):
think of millions of things and they just be don't
be stupid, JK.
Speaker 3 (25:36):
You know.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
So part of my mental journey has been making peace
with my sharks.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
You know.
Speaker 4 (25:43):
I had an impost shark, I had a dumb shark,
I had a guilt shark. I had I want to
be like shark, you know, and they were all influencing
me and my ability to be the best I could be.
And so I still have a whole lot of different
ideas and now I will share them with people and
(26:07):
I take it or leave it.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
I don't worry too much about it.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Are we ambitious enough in New Zealand? Do you think?
Speaker 3 (26:14):
Yeah? I think that New Zealanders.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
You know, it was really interesting, you know, Christopher Luxen
being taken through the media for making profit out of
a house.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
I just wonder whether that's been a big part of
our culture that we need to address.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Like, you know, I love successful people. And when I
say success, if you're successful financially, I think good on you.
If you're successful politically, I think good on you. If
you're a successful mum or a successful dad and your
kids are good kids, that is success. But I just
think New Zealand, New Zealand, we need to be very
(26:59):
careful that we don't take this humility that is very
positive in our culture a little bit too far and
start beating people up.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
For being successful.
Speaker 4 (27:12):
And I'm using the Prime Minister because I think it's
a very interesting it's a very interesting personality to pick on.
But I don't like it when we start attacking success
in any field. Right If that's financially, good on you. Yeah,
as long as you haven't done a duval.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
But it's kind of almost like, you know, I get
into the gender politics quite a bit, and I always
say that, you know, I'm a feminist and I encourage
woman and I did a lot of work in that area.
But it doesn't mean we have to beat others down,
you know what I mean, Like I want to see
men succeed.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
I want to see women succeed.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
You know. For me, that's what it's about. And it's
a bit the same, whether it's financial or whatever it is.
It's just like, you know, it's sort of sitting there
and pointing and blaming, whereas ex we could be encouraging
and I'd love to give you the hand to get
yourself and it's just but instead it's knocked them down,
knock them down.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Yeah, And I agree with you. I think that, you know,
I think there takes a certain percentage of extremism might
be the wrong word, exaggeration in feminism, in gay rights,
and a whole lot of different stuff for us to
then come back to a sensible middle, right, because if
(28:30):
we didn't have some of the amazing women and you know,
I was brought up by three women, so For me,
I don't see feminism. I see women as the greatest
asset in my life that I could not live without.
So for me, I don't see it. You know, people
I don't see race either, like I just see New Zealand.
So but for me, it's sometimes you need a little
(28:54):
bit of going too far for us to come back
to the middle. And when you get back to the middle,
some of those people are then isolated because they haven't
had the ability to go okay, right.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
You know.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
The gay parade, right totally agreed with it for a
long time, but when it steps over the line into vulcarity,
I go, well, what's the purpose because that's just now
a show? Because I think gay rights are fundamental, I
need we need to do this, feminine rights, all that
sort of stuff. But then we need to come back to,
you know, the happy medium.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
So that yeah of society.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
That's where I sort of sit on it.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
So what do you mean by vulgarity? Then you just perhaps,
I mean, it's not quite the middle of the day,
is it. But it's a street, a.
Speaker 4 (29:42):
Bunch of nuns, a bunch of people dressed up as
nuns with the ass cut out of the the.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Habit, so the general public don't need to see that
sort of thing, and it's too fat.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
I just think it's a step too far. Is that
really promoting.
Speaker 3 (30:01):
Gay rights?
Speaker 4 (30:02):
You know, look, that's that's just that's just my opinion.
I think that, you know, when you talked about feminism before,
you need to push the boundaries to get get a
wrong a wrong situation right right, So you need to
make sure that you're pushing the boundaries. But then once
(30:24):
we think it's at a at a place where it's accepted,
we need to come back to it.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
And I mean, you talked about the eighties and it's
quite interesting when you think about that with gay rights.
It's like by Craky, they're pretty much wounded it then
and it was you know, you people were hiding their sexuality.
It was this, you know, and now when you look
at how far we've come and still got a way
to go at some level. But as you say, it's
I want to same mainstream because it's not the right
words either, is it. But it's just such a different world,
(30:52):
you know how good.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
I mean, you know, I'm an eighties child. We used to.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Use, you know, words that that are just totally inappropriate
now and rightly so, but a lot of it was
around our own ignorance. And so the the the you know,
the the the people who pushed the boundaries back then
also educated us. So you know, we're in a way,
we're in a way better space now for it, you
(31:18):
know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
I don't know how we got on that subch.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
I don't know what we got down there, but there
we go. We did.
Speaker 2 (31:24):
So let's talk a bit about mental health, because look,
for everything that you've done, you know, in my personal
opinion is that that will be you'll give back to
New Zealand. Is that you know, you were one of
the first that stood out and put your face in
front of it. You were you know, for particularly for
those blokes out there, you know.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
But man, it was a ride for you to get
to that place. And I mean, I remember you. I've
been lucky.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Enough to hear before, and you know your discussion of
being in a hotel room has stuck with me, and
so it must be it must be pretty powerful if
it's still in the back of my mind.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Do you mind telling people there?
Speaker 3 (32:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (32:04):
So I mean we're talking. Yeah, Like for me, I
didn't know this at the time. My reference to mental
health was one flow of the Crooko's nest. So I
thought that if I spoke to my doctor, I'm going
to get locked up with Jack Nicholson and chief of
the Big American Indian gay And so I was hiding
(32:25):
my mental health. I wasn't talking to anyone about it.
I was an anxiety based depressant found that post So
I was having anxiety attacks and ignoring them. So I
was going back to relative normal.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
And you were all black then yet Yeah.
Speaker 4 (32:39):
I remember going one morning to radio holder Key to
Kevin Black's studio, and it was seven o'clock in the morning.
You know, I was going in to talk rugby. There
was a test match that week. We're talking shit. He
you know, I don't know what Black he was on, man,
but he was bouncing off the walls, opened a bottle
of champagne, had a glass of champagne.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
You know, this is from seven to seven twenty in
the morning.
Speaker 4 (33:02):
You know, right, there's like bomb You're in the bomb
toy with all this energy boom. I drive, I go
down and I sit in my car and I'm paralyzed.
I can't move because the first time that I had
a suicidal rumination. So I felt that if I drove
my car, I was going to drive off the Harbor Bridge,
(33:23):
and I didn't know if I could control myself not
doing that or driving into a lamppost at one hundred
and fifty k. So I sat there for an hour,
sweating and you know, frozen. And then I drove home
very slowly, and I went to bed and fell asleep,
which was which was not something that was that common
(33:44):
back then when I was unwell, and I woke up
and felt okay, I thought, shit, I'm not having champagne
in the morning anymore.
Speaker 3 (33:50):
That good for you.
Speaker 4 (33:52):
So once again ignored it, and so I didn't know
what was happening. And then one day the anxiety attack
just didn't go away. So it was a constant. So
I say this, you know, a minute feels like an hour,
an hour feels like a day, and a day feels
like a week. And at the end of every day
I was also struggling with suicide I ruminations. I never
(34:14):
planned mown suicide, so for that I feel internally grateful,
but I was thinking about suicide, and at the end
of every day I was just exhausted. And then I
went away on an all black tour, and I was
away from my comfort. Although I hadn't spoken to anyone,
I felt comfortable, you know, around family and around home,
(34:37):
and I had some escape routes. And I just had
the worst tour ever, just struggling to survive, mentally, hiding
it from everybody, living a lie, suicidal ruminations.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
But I was lying in bed on the.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Tenth floor of the Hilton and Buenos Aidas and.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Window was open.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
I just finished an anxiety attack, and by the end
of the day, my anxiety attacks were then mental attached
to suicidal rumination. And then I'd start shaking physically and
I'd shake, and I just finished that. I was just
sick of fighting, you know, I was sick of fighting it.
So I decided that I was going to run and
(35:24):
jump out the window. And courage is a funny word
when you're talking about this. I don't know if it's
the right word, but it's the only word I can
come up with. And so I was building up the
courage to run and jump ou out of the window
and going through the process of what.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
And why and what would happen and that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (35:46):
And I'm lying in bed, Yeah, yeah, know, I'm lying
in bed trying to get the courage. Yeah, trying to
go go now John, you know, run and jump. And
Michael Owns, who was my roommate, said to me, JK,
you've got a good heart, and he saved my life.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
I never jumped out the window.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
But the thing that I said to myself every second
for the next sort of forty eight fifty sixty hours
of what it was was JK, you've got a good heart.
I said that to myself every second because I was
too scared to think of what the other thought.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I suppose that's good advice for people, right,
is that actually you don't have to solve every problem.
Speaker 1 (36:33):
If you're worried about a friend, you know, you don't,
you know.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
But actually sometimes it's the more simple things that we
do for others that can mean the most.
Speaker 3 (36:42):
Is that, yeah, yeah, look, I think you know.
Speaker 4 (36:47):
I often say, don't try and be the expert, just
be there. It's probably the best advice.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
You know.
Speaker 4 (36:56):
Often we want to help. Yeah, you know, it's but
like your kids, they come to you the problem and
you don't know the answer, but you make shit up
because that's what you you think.
Speaker 3 (37:04):
You should do as a parent.
Speaker 4 (37:06):
But often it's best just to listen and then ask
how what do you need from me? And often just
listening is enough sometimes, you know, I remember my brother
in law came to me, came with me to the psychiatrist.
That was the greatest thing he could have ever done
for me, because I was so embarrassed I didn't want
(37:27):
to go. You know, he didn't give a shit. He
walked in with me and and that was the greatest
help I could have had at the time. So, you know,
it's it's it was a turning point in my life.
Speaker 2 (37:46):
Can we talk about the preventative because you touched on
it and that's certainly what Mighty is right?
Speaker 1 (37:52):
What does preventive mean?
Speaker 2 (37:53):
How do we look after ourselves and our children better?
Speaker 1 (37:58):
Earlier?
Speaker 4 (37:59):
So, about five or six years ago, I woke up
and felt that I'd failed. I've been the face of
mental health in our country for fifteen years and we
have the worst suicide rate in the OCD. Right, so
I'd failed and failure. Like you know, people get a
bit upset when I say that because they think I'm
(38:21):
worried about it. I'm not worried about it, because what
it did make me do is relook at it. So
I re looked at it and the problem that I
had as I went on this journey from being incredibly
clinically depressed and unwell so surviving to thriving.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
And what I did.
Speaker 4 (38:45):
Is I learned what I call the six pillars of
preventative mental health, right. And so what I decided to
do was most kids were still learning English, maths and science,
but they weren't learning anything that they needed that they
might be divorced, they might go broke, they might lose
(39:07):
a job, you know. So we created Mighty and with
help from a whole lot of people, we built a
curriculum for primary schools that teach our tamariki about you know,
about mental health and how they can implement that in
their days.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
And so are the teachers teaching it just as part
of everything.
Speaker 3 (39:31):
Right across the curriculum. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (39:32):
And what we do is we supply the teachers that
go in and teach the teachers. We don't teach the kids,
We teach the teachers, and then they put this curriculum
based mental health program right across the school and it's
having an incredible effect. We're in two hundred schools and
there's fourteen hundred primary schools in New Zealand and we
(39:52):
want to get to them all and we think that
within a generation we become one of the best mental
health countries the.
Speaker 3 (40:00):
OCD and that is that.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
So it's kind of teaching that adaptive resilience, right, because
we get it as we get older.
Speaker 4 (40:06):
Yeah, I love you too, Paula. You know I hate
that word resilience.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Well I went into a bunch of fifteen year olds
and I said, what's resilience? And they said, that's our
ship word our parents use, you know. So I'll say
this to you.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I'll say this to you.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
Our children need a toolbox, a mental toolbox, right to
deal with whatever the world throws of them, because resilience
to you might not be resilience to make. So that's
the problem, right, So we're using these generalized words.
Speaker 2 (40:42):
Well, what I was going to say to you was
as well, is that I would be considered one of
the most resilient people I know, and that a lot
of people know, and yet I'm as messed up and
screwed up as anyone.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
So it's not the answer.
Speaker 4 (40:54):
No, no, but that's beautiful. But can you articulate. So
this is what I say, love is a verb. Yeah, right,
And then everyone's dictionary the meaning of love underneath has
different meanings, right.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Got that?
Speaker 4 (41:10):
So if I said in Paula Bennett's dictionary, I've just
opened a resilience, tell me underneath what that means?
Speaker 3 (41:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (41:20):
Do you want me to answer there?
Speaker 3 (41:21):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
So for me, it's the ability to bounce back when
life is treating you as it does, as it just
does because of circumstances and everything else. And yeah, it
is that in a strength that means that you can
keep on somewhat of an even keel.
Speaker 4 (41:39):
Okay, So tell me one thing you would do when
you get up and you're having a bad day.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
I would talk.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
To best friend, to talk to someone, family, husband, sit down,
and I take time out by myself. So I got
when I was in politics, I suppose my bad mental
health would manifest itself, that I would get physically unwell
to the point where i'd be hospitalized. I remember once,
so doctor went and they said, and they wrung me
(42:10):
now late and they said, we're actually really concerned about you.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
It's your choice. Do you want to go to hospital?
Speaker 2 (42:14):
And I went, Yet, it's the only way I can
take time out, you know, it's the only way. So
then I learned to not get to that point and
mine was having time alone perfect.
Speaker 4 (42:25):
So that is resilience for you, right, And all we
need to do is teach how Tamariki that when this
situation arises, here's the toolbox that I have, right, And
like I've got a lot of friends that go for
a run. Yeah, right, that might be part of your toolbox.
(42:47):
And I was talking to Jenny May the other day,
I'm going off the word well being because it's too broad,
do you know. And we've really got to personalize this
stuff as out. And I also created another company called
Groove where I want to use technology to deliver some
(43:07):
of these things in the workplace because I prefer to
talk about performance care. You know, you've got to perform
poorer at work. I've got to perform that. We love performance,
But how do I care for myself and how do
I care for you so that you get the best performance?
And then how digitally can we put that in our
day And so that's that part of my inspiration is
(43:30):
teach our kids to have the toolbox when they when
you know, and a nine year old it might be
losing a group of friends. You know, eleven year old's
going to high school, you know, and sometimes we go,
you know, get over it.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
We've all been through it.
Speaker 4 (43:47):
That's not the answer because that you know, the extroverted
kid's going to love it. The introverted kid's going to
be shitting themselves. So what toolboxes can we give them?
And then in the workplace, how can we you know,
there's no work life balance anymore. You know, you're on
your phone every second, everyone's on their computers. But there's
just so much more inputs into our brain. So there's
(44:10):
no natural switch off of the brain, right and unless
you take control now, the world has taken control of you.
And it's very hard to get that control back. You know,
our minds are speeding up. We're not resting them instead
of sitting there. And I say, I said to a
group of leaders the other day, when was the last
time you were bored?
Speaker 3 (44:29):
And they all went, well, shit, right, because we picked
the phone up. And I'm as guilty as anyone, don't
get me wrong, right, But what what I try and
do is take control of my mental health on a
daily basis and make sure i'm implementing the things that
I know.
Speaker 2 (44:47):
Look and it's all individual and it's all different totally.
Speaker 4 (44:51):
So I tell you, I'll tell you an intersting story. Right,
I'm I'm sore. There's two things that have happened.
Speaker 3 (44:58):
You know. I've gone to the doctor and he's told
me I've got depression and it's an illness, not a weakness.
And he tells me I should go on to antidepressants
and go and see a psychiatrist. And I tell him
to pass off and walk out.
Speaker 4 (45:11):
Being an idiot. Anyway, I go back three weeks later.
I had a little bit of hope because I thought, shit,
it's an illness, not a weakness, because it takes away
your self esteem, takes away your self confidence, and takes
away your enjoyment in life. So you feel pretty shitty.
And so I went back. I went on the antidepressants,
and I went and saw someone. I went saw some
person first, which was not a nice experience, and I
(45:35):
can tell that story it another day. But the second
person I went to was amazing doctor Louis Armstrong, and
she took me on this journey of first thing she
said is have.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
You accepted your illness? And I hadn't.
Speaker 4 (45:48):
I was still fighting it, which takes up a lot
of energy. So I say to people, you know, never
give up, but stop fighting. And because I stopped fighting
it and accepted it, and then I started working on it.
But just one thing about the brain. She said to me, JK,
how would you like to try meditation? I'm going, wow,
that's pretty freaky, Like, you know, if you did yoga
(46:09):
back then, you're a dope smoking, surfy freak.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
You know, no one did bloody meditation. I didn't even
know what it was.
Speaker 4 (46:15):
So I went and did it because I was prepared
to try anything. And it was terrible, like absolutely terrible.
Started getting anxious again, so I thought I'd failed, and
I thought I've done something wrong, you know. And I
went back to her and she said, no, JK, like
twenty two or twenty four percent of the world's population
(46:36):
have a ruminating mind. And I go, should I can't
even spell that as that Bob the Monkey, Bob the
Monkey in my head, right, and I'll explained Bob the
Monkey to you. So I Bob the Monkey and I
go to bed at night and I don't read Bob
the Monkey goes you JK. Shit, let's think about tomorrow.
(46:58):
Let's think about yesterday. Yes, think about shit that doesn't matter,
and him and I will be up TI two o'clock
in the morning.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
Right, you've got Netflix.
Speaker 4 (47:06):
Yeah, If I watch Netflix, if it doesn't engage my
brain in forty five seconds, Bob the Monkey's gone.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (47:13):
Right, So that's a ruminating mind. So I'm an active relaxer. So,
for example, I do three things. I read, Bob the
monkey goes into his cage and has a banana. I cook,
Bob the monkey goes into his cache, heads banana. If
I play the guitar and I'm shit at it, Bob
the Monkey goes in his cage, has banana. So I
(47:34):
know that any one of those three things, on a
daily basis, I can disconnect my brain, right.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
And you have to do that. I have to do
this just highly wired.
Speaker 4 (47:44):
When on Well, sometimes I can go a few days
without it, but I generally don't. Right, So I know
that on a daily basis, I've got to do one
of those three things. Also, I talk about two birds
of one stone. I love cooking. My wife also loves
me cooking. Yeah right, yeah, So that's two birds with
one stone. And so the six pillars, So that's chill.
(48:08):
Do what are you doing for your mind that's outside
your work to you know? And I'm learning how to
read music. How do you connect?
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Right?
Speaker 4 (48:18):
And this is a really interesting one for you. So
I connect in three ways. I love the cell phone,
you know, talking to my son on the way here.
You know he's in Barcelona. How good is that? So
I enjoy technology, I love connecting with people. But I'm
also an introvert that enjoys being an extrovert. So I
read the book Quite by Suzanne Kane, which really changed
(48:38):
my life. So I know that when I'm an extrovert,
I need to get energy back. And I really enjoy
connecting with nature. So how do I put those in
my day?
Speaker 3 (48:47):
Right?
Speaker 4 (48:48):
Sometimes you can't do all three? But then move right?
What am I doing to move? How do I enjoy
something every single day? And what am I celebrating? And
if you put those six things is all built in
behavioral science in your day, then you are doing preventive
mental health. But my chill might be different to your chill.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
You might do later. You might do knitting.
Speaker 4 (49:10):
You know, I don't know what you like your time out,
So but if you do those six things.
Speaker 3 (49:14):
Then you're doing preventative mental health.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
And so you're teaching these kids via the mighty to
kind of think about how they're going to look after
themselves and their wellness if you're like, you know, totally
for their lives.
Speaker 4 (49:31):
I mean, if you're in New Zealand mail and you're
getting close to sixty. We grew up with three emotions, happy,
sad and angry. You know, we didn't know too many
other expressive words. And so yeah, it's just about teaching
them the rule book. But this is also about groove.
You know, how how do we go into businesses and say,
you know, we want people to perform, but we need
(49:53):
to be able to use their data. We want to
be able to integrate into their workday, but then also
give them the ability to take the time i'm out,
you know, like for me, it doesn't take me long
per day to look after my mental health.
Speaker 3 (50:06):
You know.
Speaker 2 (50:07):
Okay, to in this segment, tell me what's what do
you think the best piece of advice you've ever been given?
Speaker 1 (50:14):
Perhaps just being told that you've got a good heart.
Speaker 4 (50:16):
Yeah, that was pretty big. My dad once said to me,
if you died tomorrow, would you be happy? He was
on his deathbed. He didn't die that time, which was great.
He died a year later.
Speaker 3 (50:28):
But I said, shit, what sort of question is that, dad?
Speaker 4 (50:32):
And he said, well, you go home and think about it, son,
and if I'm still alive tomorrow, we can talk about it.
Speaker 3 (50:39):
So I went home and I came.
Speaker 4 (50:41):
Back and you know, I came back in and I
had all the obvious answers. You know, I want to
see the kids grow up and all, you know, all
that sort of stuff, and he said, I know that, son,
that's a given.
Speaker 3 (50:49):
That wasn't my question.
Speaker 4 (50:52):
And I said, well, I can't really answer it, dad,
And he said, well, don't learn how to live life
by touching death like I did.
Speaker 3 (51:01):
He said.
Speaker 4 (51:01):
I had a heart attack at fifty nine, and he said,
I touched death and then I started living. He said,
I didn't change much. I still went back to work
and that sort of stuff. And it took me about
six months to actually go, I'm going to put everything
in my day today that's really really important to me.
(51:21):
So if I die tomorrow, i'd be happy. And I
can fairly say that if I died tomorrow, I don't
want to die obviously, then i'd be happy because today
I'll tell everybody that I love them, I will.
Speaker 3 (51:34):
Do what I want to do.
Speaker 4 (51:37):
I'll be well mentally because I look after myself mentally.
So that's probably the best bit of advice of it.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
Very powerful, very powerful Okay podcast called Ask Many Things.
Speaker 2 (52:01):
So this is an opportunity if you want to take it,
but you don't have to because I always hope someone won't,
but they always do.
Speaker 1 (52:07):
Where you can ask me something.
Speaker 3 (52:11):
Why politics?
Speaker 1 (52:15):
Ah, It's interesting.
Speaker 2 (52:18):
Because when I got to university, I was marching in
the streets and I found this voice. And then I
and i'd been on welfare. I then was studying you know,
the system if you like, and all the rest of it,
and I felt that I had a set of unique
experiences and actually talent once I found that voice, that
(52:41):
I could change it.
Speaker 3 (52:43):
What were you marching for?
Speaker 1 (52:45):
I was marching against in the national government. How ironic
likeneteen ninety five.
Speaker 2 (52:53):
I've got this wonderful about I would have been university fees.
And you noticed when the billion dollar debts were coming
in and it was the first time and I would
have marched about anything because I just had found this.
I'd been this very poor you know, Solomma was told
by her father constantly that you know, there's no room
for a woman a girl's voice, and you know, and
(53:15):
shut up. And so all of a sudden, I just
found the strength and this voice, and it was you know, and.
Speaker 1 (53:20):
I just realized that actually, actually I could.
Speaker 2 (53:22):
Form an argument and I could have an opinion. And
I wasn't as dumb as I'd been told I was
for twenty five years, and you know, so that for me,
and so then you start to think.
Speaker 1 (53:33):
I started thinking about how how could I use it?
Speaker 3 (53:35):
What was just single greatest achievement out as a politician.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
Well, other people have opinions, but for me, it was difficult.
We don't care about that, Yeah, it was for me.
It was definitely the work in welfare and particularly with
teen mums.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
So that was my passion.
Speaker 2 (53:53):
I'd been one, and I knew that we could do
it better and we could do it differently.
Speaker 1 (53:58):
So I felt that if we educated.
Speaker 2 (54:01):
And respected the mothers, then they would raise their children
to be successful and have a better life. And so
I put a lot into teen moms and dads, but
it was.
Speaker 1 (54:12):
Predominantly mothers to be really blunt, beautiful. You go the
guy Okay, it's so good to see John. Thank you
so much for your time today.
Speaker 2 (54:23):
If anyone wants more information on the Sir John Cowan
Foundation and Mighty go and have a lock on the website.
It's easy to find. I had a Google yesterday. It's
all there. Look out for the surf park park that's
coming our way. Yeah, and get into lots of things.
So all the best for you for the rest of
your year. Go and see those kids and squeeze that grandchild.
Speaker 1 (54:46):
Again for me, exactly need a baby. You need a
baby in the family.
Speaker 2 (54:50):
Just pulling it out there to the nieces and nephews.
Speaker 1 (54:52):
And that's it for.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
Another episode of Asking Me Anything. If you've enjoyed this episode,
please follow Ask Me Anything on iHeartRadio, where if you
get your podcasts you check out some of the past
fabulous guests. Rhaps Alizo is one and I'll be back
next Sunday with another one.
Speaker 1 (55:06):
I'm Paula Bennett Ask Me Anything. Goodbye,
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