October 7, 2024 • 37 mins
While Natalia is best known for catfishing teen boys and young men into relationships, she has also used the photos she has stolen to trick at least two different teenage girls - and their mothers - into believing she is a long-lost member of their family. Today, David finds out their stories and how Natalia came to infiltrate their lives.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast started with the story of Laura West, how
this blonde, attractive, promising young woman lost her life in
a car crash. You've heard how her death left a
young daughter without a mother and sisters grieving the loss
of their brightest light. And of course you know now
that Laura didn't exist, and that there was no car crash. Instead,
(00:21):
the crash, Laura, her sisters, and her daughter were all
just the creation of one woman, a woman called Natalia Burgess.
In twenty ten, Natalia killed off Laura like a character
in an end of season soap opera. At that point,
Natalia had been creating online fantasy worlds and deceiving people
(00:43):
online for so long she had outlasted some of the
world's biggest social media companies. She's told me she started
doing this in two thousand and one when she was seventeen,
and now Natalia is forty. But on the Internet she
can be whatever age she chooses to be, and for
a time, when she first put on the face of
(01:03):
character Laura Jane West, she was sixteen. In recent times,
she's used Crystal Jenice Photographs to create the person of
Kaylie Littellly, a twenty seven year old single mum. Sometimes
Kaylie has a different surname, but no matter the name,
the game remains the same. To live the life online
she feels she can't have in our real world with
(01:26):
those invented selves. She insinuates away inside the lives that
those convinced she is real, and once inside their lives, well,
there's a reason she's called herself the puppeteer. She plays
with people's lives, and so far in this series, we've
been talking about the boys and men she's targeted, and
there's many of those stories to tell, but there were
(01:48):
other stories to tell, stories about others Natalia has fooled.
Because for Natalia has not just boys and men. She's
also gone after families.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
She's a shadow stalker and she got so far into
my personal space. I don't trust people. It was like
she was.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Stalking you from Afarre, knowing every movie it had done.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
This is Emma and her mum Bernie, talking about their
encounter with Laura West and Laura's sister Abby, all characters
created by Natalia Burgess over about two years. Natalia breathed
life and reality into those characters, so much so that
she convinced Bernie and Emma that she was a blood relative,
(02:36):
that she was Emma's cousin and Bernie's niece. Unlikely as
it sounds, it shows how completely utterly convincing Natalia can be,
and just how good she is at taking the threads
of someone's life and weaving them into a convincing narrative.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
To know about a family member I hadn't spoken to
and who he had passed away, people would go by
different Alis's but knew their proper birth name.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
It was part of a process that led to Natalia's
false characters becoming fully integrated into Bernie and Emma's lives.
Once inside their lives, Natalia then created scenarios and situations
that would turn Emma and Bernie's world upside down.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Even to this day, I'm always looking over my shoulder.
I don't want friendships because of this. To watch my
daughter's self destruct on some silly little dream. This woman ad,
I'll never forgive it.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
With that control, Natalia put Emma and Bernie inside the
false world she created, then fed them a stream of scenarios,
some good, some bad, but all carried out by invented characters.
Put mother and daughter on a roller coaster of emotions
as they were drawn through love, romance, heartbreak, and the
(03:54):
made up car crash that killed Laura West. We've heard
from a few mothers in their daughters so far. In
this case, the likes of Crystal and Lucy el Jenna
knew from the start of their interactions with Natalia that
they were dealing with a catfisher for Ebra and Bernie,
though they were lied to and tricked for years. It's
(04:15):
a type of catfishing wildly different to anything else we've
discussed so far in this series, and not like any
other case I've heard before. This is Chasing Ghosts the
Puppeteer and I'm David Fisher, an investigative reporter who started
trying to understand Natalia Burgess thirteen years ago, and every
time I think I'm getting close, something comes along that
(04:39):
completely changes the game in terms of volume. Natalia's false
characters churned through guys in depth and intensity, though she
seems to be looking for something else. I don't think
I understood this when our paths first crossed. I found
over the years when bring out an investigation into an
(05:01):
individual that a profile builds my head. The quirks Tech's
personality traits of the person on whom I'm intensely focused.
It helps build an understanding of who you're dealing with,
to understand the reasons why your subject might behave in
a certain way. And with Natalia, I had such a
profile in my mind. It was built with interviews with
(05:22):
those she had interacted with and after spending hours with
her doing interviews, and the foundation of the profile I'd
built was what I'd learned that she was targeting young
teenagers online, and she created a carousel of characters through
which she engaged with those boys. Back then and for
years after, Natalia, in my mind, was someone driven by
(05:44):
an urge to connect with young teen boys for sexual reasons.
Now I think I know better there's something else driving Natalia.
The turning point was discovering Bernie and Emma in New Zealand,
who Natalia become involved with fifteen years ago. Until now,
I'd seen Natalia as a predator. Now, for all the
(06:09):
pain she's caused, I see her differently. Emma was at
high school when she met Natalia online through the Laura
West character. Emma had not long had her first child,
who has been looked after by Bernie, and trying to
adjust to the dual roles of being a teenager and
a mum.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I received a friend's request on Facebook and then I
had a message in the message request saying to me,
I'm your cousin's cousin. I was like, okay, we've never
heard of you. And then I was asking her, you know,
how she knew my family and things like that, and
she was saying everything to the point where it was
(06:47):
like she was in the family and she knew too much.
And then she said that we had already met where
men with hunaus and beerre just in passing generally. And
then she knew a lot about me to the point
where she knew my son's father. She knew the whole
family rite down to the tea.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Just in case there's any confusion. Natalia didn't know and
hadn't met Emma or Bernie. Let's also remember Laura West
isn't real. And yet Natalia was able to introduce family
facts and personal information that helped Ford's trust very quickly.
(07:26):
And that's even though Bernie was doing all she thought
a good parent should do.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
That was at that time where you know, Mum still
patrolled our facebooks and having that sense of security. Mum
was even given me the twenty questions like who is this?
I was like, well, she seems to be a cousin
of a cousin. So that's how you know. Mum got
on board because she ended up calling her Auntie.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Bernie had ruled the computer stayed in the sitting room.
She wanted to know who's at the other end of
the internet connection. She needed to know the part words
of kids' social media accounts, and she even insisted on
speaking on the phone to this Laura West, who become
friends with her daughter. None of that was a barrier
(08:13):
to Natalia.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
When she mentioned a family member that I hadn't spoken
to for at least fifteen years, that's oh, okay, you
do know, yeah, it must be the relation of that relation.
I'll telling you something that you wouldn't I. She knew
so far into my life. She knew I had lost
(08:35):
my son and where he is laying at Reece. She
knew the cemetery, she knew the date, she knew a
date that was born. A lot of you know Emma's girlfriends,
they didn't know that because it was quite a while ago.
But this is how first she got into my personal life.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Hook line and Catfish.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
It was like, my life consisted of messaging her twenty
four to seven because she was bringing tyme be a
life story, and I'd always say, oh, should we you know, hey,
cous you know, because it got to the point where
I believe that your you know cousin, So I was
like calling your cousin.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
There were things that didn't add up. They were minor
and it wasn't until later that they were red flags,
seen only with the benefit of hindsight. For example, and
this is consistent with Natalia's targets. She avoided video calls
or FaceTime, and she would organize meetings in real life
only to have some drama emerged that meant that the
(09:34):
meeting couldn't go ahead.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Oh you know, the car broke down or I'm too
junk to drive or what was the other famous one?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
I miss the bus.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I missed the buss. That's it.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, And I was like, it's fair to say that
Emma was a volatile teenager. She was just sixteen at
the time that she met Natalia. When Natalie was around
a decade older. Emma thought she was bonding with a
long lost cousin who was the same age. Both of
them navigating their difficult teenage years. In reality, something different
(10:05):
was happening. As would emerge in the years to come.
Natalie was soaking up the life experiences of Emma and
Bernie and incorporating those experiences into the lives of her
fantasy world characters, and as it became clear, she was
meddling in a dangerous and difficult stage of Emma's life
in a way that had significant repercussions. I've spoken about
(10:29):
the death of Laura West, the decision by Natalia in
December twenty ten to kill off the young woman that
she created, causing huge upset among those she bonded with online. Well,
there are layers to this, and here's the first we know.
Natalia posted news of Laura's death to Facebook, but when
(10:49):
it came to Bernie, she took a different track. That
morning of December sixth, Bernie's phone rang.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Every run Mom and I are to mess. We thought
it was a genue when light cry for like grieving.
You know, So Laura is dead and my mom was like,
what do you mean she's dead? We were just talking
to the other day. She was like, no, shared a
car crash and she's dead. They deal with the ICU,
but she didn't make it.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Laura's gone. So this is Abby still Natalia, but using
a different voice. This is Abby who's messaging and speaking
with Bernie and Emma. This is right in the middle
of the shop. News of Laura's death, and Abbie's contact
has a particular purpose.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
How do I plan a funeral? Got no idea? You know,
she would want it this way. What she says, she goes,
I would like you and your mom to carry her,
you know, stowed away. Well, there's no parent that she
took her a pearance or no. No, she didn't talk
to her a parents, So we were like her parents.
Where were all she had about me?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
At the time. Emma wasn't at home. Remember I described
her as a volatile teenager. She was juggling a lot.
And there was an event one which Natalia is believed
to have instigated, that led to Emma leaving home and
living elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
And then I've got a message or a phone call
at the home saying she's dead. Your cousin is dead.
And no, that's sent both of us spiraling.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
In that event that Natalia is believed to have instigated. Well,
that was about Peter Russell. Remember Peter He was Raywan
Ford's son who took his life in twenty ten. Rayman
has forever linked his suicide to Natalia, entangling him in
a rollercoaster relationship with Laura West, though no official inquiry
(12:40):
has offered any reasons that can be published. Certainly, I
know from covering many coronial hearings there's almost always multiple
reasons for suicide. Well before the relationship with Peter and
Laura came Peter and Emma.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
So me and Peter we met randomly. I think it
was as I was always at his house in christ Church.
We were on and off for a wee back, you know,
so excited young love. I was like, oh, got someone,
and she was like, oh, you know, asking the twenty questions.
Trying to be that so called protective family member.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Emma told Natalia all about Peter, including his name.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
And then all of a sudden, she's I've got to
be a partner now. I'm like, she was almost to
the point where she had to.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Have what I had.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Me and Pete drifted away, That's right.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Laura West cut in on cousin Emma, and.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Then we just started drifting away. And then he said
to me and am I was like, what's up? And
he goes, I thank I'm falling in love with this girl.
And I was like, you need to follow you, you
need to do what you need.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
To do well teenage Emma. It was devastating but troubling
too to see the changes that came over Peter in
that difficult online relationship.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
He was like a schoolcad all over again, for like
its fierce love.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
He proposed, she accepted, then rejected the proposal, cup and
got together again and then broke up again. It was
all the drama all the time, and the change to
Peter was there to see.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
A huge, huge m back, like and it's like he's
lost as well, like isn't doing do anything? He didn't
he on benders.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
I still remember a.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Message I got from me. He goes, well, she's she's
broken up with me again, but I think this times
for real. I'm just going to go on the bender
and just ended all. I vividly remember that message and
I was trying to talk him out of it, and
then I called him his nickname and he goes, I
need to wake up from this, Like how can a
girl take advantage of me? You know, I lost everything
(14:40):
I gave her everything. It was hard. It was really hard.
He wasn't himself or he had There was a complete
empty shell to the person that I fell in love with.
It was quite scary to think, you know, this big, bright,
bubbly personality that he always had, you know that eOne
knew you for, and it's just empty, like completely and utterly. Indeed,
(15:01):
Emma was hurting but locked it down. She was determined
to give them space, not to be that ex girlfriend.
But all the time she was nursing pain.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
That's when Abbie came, and you know, Emma was hurt
of what happened. And I was watching this unfold. But
Emma and her persona of a front that I'm okay,
but she wasn't.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Bernie's take on it, in hindsight was that Natalie wasn't
getting whatever it was she was looking for from Emma.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
So all of a sudden, we've got a new person
coming into play, and that was Abby. And Abby seemed
very genuine, more so than any of the other people.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Abby she was so genuine, like she was trying to
say how she was disgusted how her mate ye made
Laura had done what she'd done, Like she was like,
you know, one of those high school friends, like backstabbing
her best friend to her deserve it, Like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
She was real, She's just so manipulating.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Believable, Yeah, she was believable. Bizarrely, this conflict between characters
played out online, Ernie and Emma watching as Laura's friends
turned on her, remonstrating, yeah, we were just watching.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
It on face you know, you hop on Facebook or
whatever it was at the time, and you'd watched this
fight going on like Keyboard Warriors, but didn't.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Realize it was the same person.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
And one was.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Saying this, one was saying that, and then this one
would back off off, and it was just blowing up,
and you.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Actually believed it was real.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
That was a wait, and it added to what Emma
was already dealing with the death of a friend in
a car crash. It was later that she realized the
real world tragedy in early twenty ten served as a
template for the death of Laura West.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
But it was quite weird because it was the same
kind of car crash that actually happened to a lateral
life friend, real person, and she genuinely died in the
car crash. It was you know, I still get over
pet and then all of a sudden, I'm grieving for
this cousin that I'd never met but was really close with.
So you know, she was playing on our emotions with
(17:20):
that one.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
It's like she got into our emotions and she knew
our stories of our friends and our family, and she
could worm me way into that story and make a
fiction story of it.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
It was crazy.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
It was like she knew where to hit us where
it hurt.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
For Emma, this was a time of profound instability. There
were aspects of her behavior that made it, for a
time impossible for her to be at home, and with
Tatalia in the mix, that volatility increased exponentially. I asked
Emma what the impact was on her, but it was
a mum Bernie who spoke first, self distruct Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Literally, I went down the path of what stealing, getting
locked up all the time. I was like so close
to going jail, so close to going jail. I was
getting towards the alcohol became alcohol depending at seventeen, just
running myself into the ground like I was over. I
was going to go join them, and I was at
(18:21):
that stage I couldn't take any more, and then turned
into the drugs as well, and I turned to the drugs.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
I was watching my daughter self destruct and there's nothing
like go out of this.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
This woman destroyed my family. I was so close to
losing my daughter.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
There was a drunken stumble by Natalia that New Year's
Eve when she introduced herself with her own name. She
talked fast to paper over the cracks in her story,
Emma and Burnie recall, but it did create a seed
of doubt. And then came the reporting about four months
later who was really behind the face of Laura West?
(19:04):
And the truth was out. But even though that reporting
was followed by police chargers and at court hearing, Emma
still found herself struggling to believe it was all fake.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I was disgusted, like and still believing that she was
my cousin, like she'd manipulated me that much. I was like, Nah,
that's my cousin, and like, no, that's this not who
she is, This is my cousin, Like I wanted to
protect there at saying zion, I don't know why, but
I was shocked and I'm thinking, well, okay, there's so
many unanswered questions at the same time, so I.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Was I don't know, I was shell shocked.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
I was numb, and I probably a lot of gelt. Yeah,
I lived with the gelt because I felt I'd put
my daughter through as it was like a grief.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
It really is like a grief proving all these family
members and friends that really real.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, and to realize, you know, someone had done this
to my family and even to this day is still
doing it within the mind.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
The relationship between Emma Bernie and Natalia as Laura lasted
for nearly two years, but ended when I exposed Natalia
and the Hero on Sunday. You know the story by now,
that Natalia went to jail, I thought she would stop
her puppeteering and then founded twenty twenty two. She was
masquerading as others. But not only did she start targeting
(20:31):
men again. Once Natalia got out of jail, she set
her sights on infiltrating another family and just like the men,
she now turned to Australia, landing in Adelaide, where she
found mother and daughter Danica and Lisa Danika Baxter. Like
Emma met Natalia while she was at school. By her account,
(20:54):
this was twenty sixteen.
Speaker 6 (20:56):
I met so in a friend's Facebook group, so like
just wanting friends. Then she started messaging me under a
name called Kaylee. Then we headed off pretty well.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Kaylie said she was a decade older than Danneka, who
was sixteen at the time. In reality, Natalia at that
time would have been around thirty two. This time, Natalie
was using the name Kaylee. Remember that friend Emma actually
lost in a car crash. Her name was Kaylee. Natalia's
(21:32):
fantasy world had taken a different direction since jail here
in twenty sixteen is the earliest I've found where she's
using Crystal Jenner's image. Around that time, she created a
new cast of characters. She told Daniker and Lisa she
had a daughter, Lily Rose, and as time went on,
linked herself to the well known family from Auckland, the Littalis.
(21:55):
Daniker is now twenty four, but she and her mum
remember the woman they knew as Kaylie Rose or Kaylee
Litelly was that kind.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Of normal like mom life.
Speaker 7 (22:06):
She was blonde from New Zealand, very pretty, oh yeah,
very pretty, treated us as her own sample like kept
calling me her little sister, like auntie to.
Speaker 6 (22:19):
Her daughter, and then like my mom, her mom.
Speaker 8 (22:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
It was like felt so real, so much that This
is familiar from speaking with Emma and Bernie.
Speaker 6 (22:29):
Oh God, were talked about how literally answering the whole
entire life. She's backs on me in my life, all
my exys, my grandma, that Sazi passed away, and my
niece sent photos to each other. She'd message down ink
one minute.
Speaker 9 (22:45):
And then she said, I'm like, oh, were you talking
to Kaye? And then she'd hang out, but then she'd
talk to me and yeah, or some jobs together.
Speaker 6 (22:53):
She kept messing us Nelly every day, yep. And if
Danny your head a roun like we had a fight,
he could ring and asked for advice. And then godra
Aran in Ireland. Yeah, I just really.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Thought she was wrong.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Kaylee called Danicas sis and Lisa mum. She messaged and
spoke to both women for around six years. It sounds,
I said, as if Kaylee was a part of the
family brtually, even.
Speaker 6 (23:18):
Though that sounds we are we are starting.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
But yeah, there's large chunks of the interview with Danika
and her mum Lisa that I could play, but I'm
pretty sure you'd start to feel like you'd heard it before,
and you would have because much of what happened with
Emma and Bernie happened in just the same way. Contact
started with the schoolgirl Emma or Danka, but quickly grew
to incorporate their mums, Bernie and Lisa. The contact was
(23:45):
initially over messenger, but then changed to include voice calls,
and there was always a reason why those voice calls
didn't include video. Here's Danika, I'm cooking dinner.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
I've just put Lily down for a sleeve so I
don't want to wake her.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And here's Emma.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
I was like, do you want to FaceTime? She's like, oh,
I'm busy. I'm just getting out the shower. I've got
an apployment or you know. My wife was playing up
and I was like, oh good. I never thought anything
of it.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
It sort of Talia became a major influence in Emma's life,
and then later with Danica. She was with them for
major life events. For Emma, it was the loss of
a friend in a car crash. For Danica, it was
helping her cope with the death of her grandmother.
Speaker 6 (24:28):
I think I told kay Lee that, oh, hey, Grandma,
my Nada passed away, and then she was like, oh,
I'm so sorry to hear. He was Sandy her love
and support, and then when it came to us, so
I think once she said I wish I was out
to support you know, I'm like, no, it's all good.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
And guess what it wasn't long after that Kaylee's own
grandmother died. It was news Kaylee broke to Danica and
I can see messages from that time that Kaylee couldn't
help but double down.
Speaker 10 (25:00):
Grandma died of old age, Vicki of cancer and May
last year and Liam, when he was fifteen, he was murdered.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Who were these three people? Were any of them real?
There was a Vicula Tally who died in May twenty seventeen,
someone Natalia likely met behind bars. The two were sentenced
to the same prison. Vicula Tally was serving three years
on fraud chargers at the same time as that Talia
had gone away. Of Liam. Danaka recalls that Kaylie spoke
(25:30):
of him as a brother, and yet there's no evidence
of a teenage at that age by the name of
Liam being murdered in New Zealand in the last twenty years.
As for Grandma, well, it definitely wasn't Kayley's grandmother because
Kayleie's just not real What's so striking about Danika and
(25:52):
Lisa's contact with Natalia is how long it went on
for by their account, and there are copies of many
text mess sug just to support this. Their connection lasted
from twenty sixteen through to twenty twenty two, and those
messages show an incredible level of drama injected into the relationship,
(26:12):
all in the context of Kaylee's daily life. There's plenty
of mundane chitchat between the two, which we've had voiced
by two actors.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
Pal's Lily Rose. She is playing outside.
Speaker 10 (26:23):
Oh cute, She's got a scooter she plays on now
she's whipped it out, And.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
There's major life changing moments. Both the good be happy.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
I am moving back. My new boyfriend lives in Adelaide.
Who's your new boyfriend? Nathan? No, so hopefully this swks
up for you both. And the bad babe, what's happened
with you and Nathan? Nothing.
Speaker 10 (26:41):
We had a tiny fight at two am when we
were both tired. I think we are okay.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Natalia would share photographs with Danaker and Lisa, One of
a preschool girl was supposed to be Kaylee's daughter, Lily Rose. Instead,
the child pictured is the daughter of a friend of
Crystal Jenny's. Remember, Tarlia didn't only harvest crystal social media output,
she cast the net wide across her friend circle in
(27:07):
a bid to find more building blocks for her fantasy world.
Natalia has such a store of photographs from Crystal and
her friends that there's almost one for every occasion. There
were Christmas photographs, shopping pictures, precious family moments at a park.
At an early stage. The discovery they had the same
birth dates delighted Daneka. It's a coincidence, she now sees
(27:30):
with some cynicism. When Daneka was turning twenty and fictitious
Kaylee was turning thirty. Four years after they first met.
There are a bounty of photographs showing Kaylee celebrating their
joint birthday celebrations. The messages are an archive of the
fabric of life, written large by a longtime fantasist. The
messaging between them covers such a broad range of life dramas.
(27:54):
There's new loves, there's new breakups. Together, they shared joy
and frustration. In one lengthy exchange, Kaylee bored, Natalia tells
Danica how her current boyfriend should be treating her better,
and then Kaylee goes a step further by messaging the
boyfriend Danka.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Was good to you and you hurt her. We just
passed me off being her big sister.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
In Danka's case, there was at least a real relationship.
Speaker 10 (28:22):
Tell mom she's going to be a grandma in October again,
thanks Bobe, Mom and I so congratulations.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Thanks. Me and Jaden are so happy.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
That's the same Jada and we met last episode. The
man who found out she wasn't real the same day
he met her online.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
Mom said how are you and Lily Rose? We're good.
Speaker 10 (28:41):
She was at my last scan and got so excited
when she heard the baby's heartbeat.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
That's good to hear. And oh, she's going to be
a big sister. Fingers crossed. It's a boy cross them hard.
Jaden wants a boy to.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
A month later, the scams were in and it turned
out a boy wasn't on the way.
Speaker 10 (28:55):
How about we name my daughter Summer Danica Louise Latali Grazier.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
You're having another daughter? Why my name? Because you're a
little sets.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And another month passes, then how's your pregnancy going?
Speaker 4 (29:07):
Good? Sirs? Thank you? Scan next week?
Speaker 11 (29:09):
That's good and oh so exciting I can't wait to
give Lily her little sister.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
And then a month later, in a message timestamp six
point thirty pm, the slow drip of news about an
imminent sister for Lily Rose took a dark turn.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
We lost the baby. OMG, how I went an early
labour Han win baby at three pm today.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
The drama was constant, and it often escalated to previously
unreached height or sunk to new debts in a way
that is reminiscent again of a soap opera seeking out
a new, gripping narrative twist. For a period in twenty nineteen,
Danika and Lisa lived with the worst of one of
(29:49):
those scenarios. It started with a text like most did,
but this time Natalia had taken on a new identity.
Speaker 12 (29:58):
Kaylee and Nikoma. She overdosed after Greg broke up with
her this morning after losing her grandpa last night. Gregged
up to her this morning. It was all too much for her.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
Well is she going to be okay? What about Lily Rose?
Speaker 12 (30:10):
She's at her grandmother's house. We've got no idea how
long she was unconscious for before Ashley found her.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Okay, Thanks may I Ascomb talking to please Dave her brother.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
That brother is Dave thet Tally, also known as Butterbean,
the former pro boxer who's become quite a prominent social advocate.
I've confirmed with the Tally family that this was not
Dave who was messaging Dannika, and that messaging went on
for days.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
How's Keyley in.
Speaker 12 (30:38):
A medical coma for now? To let her body heal
from all the pills she took?
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Okay? Well, hope she will be okay thinking of her.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
There were others who rang while Kayley was in a coma.
Speaker 6 (30:48):
That was her, but in a different voice.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
It's just that's bizarre.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
And then Kaylee was back and sending photographs from inside
the hospital.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
How you feeling sis like an idiot?
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Why?
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Because he never loved me? Lol? I tried to kill
myself over a loser.
Speaker 11 (31:04):
You were better without him. Now, listen to me. Never
do anything stupid again, Promise, Keeley. I got so scared.
Me and mine were crying. Liver's needs a beautiful mom
in her life.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
The contact is constant. It's about men and relationships, cheating
and being cheated on. Danica talks of being messaged by
friends of Kayleie's and there's no evidence these were real people,
but it was all part of an ongoing, developing narrative.
When Kaylee met new guys online, she would start a
group chat and pull Daniker in, this is my new guy.
Speaker 6 (31:34):
She would say, if I had to argue with my mom,
all that we partners and all that, so used to ask,
and she'll give me the best advice. Said some of
the advice she gave me, it was honestly amazing, And yeah,
it's so great to just touch down my name to
and lean on and talk to when you need someone
because she is always there.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
And then came the discovery it was all a lie.
When Danica stumbled across the real Crystal Jenna line.
Speaker 9 (32:00):
She saw this photo of her on TikTok and she goes,
that's Kad, but she's gone by a.
Speaker 6 (32:06):
Different name, right, thought, okay, this is strange.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
And then when we found out, Yeah, it was a shot.
Speaker 9 (32:13):
Big shot, especially after talking draw for what five six
years Allie and then finding out.
Speaker 6 (32:20):
She's not real. Yeah, and he think, why would a
person do this?
Speaker 1 (32:25):
It took Danika a while to be able to have
a proper conversation with Crystal. To her, it seemed unreal
that her friend, her big sister of six years didn't
actually exist, and I'm real that the face associated with
that friend belonged to a different woman. For a while,
she wanted to go to the Gold Coast and meet
(32:45):
Crystal face to face so she would know for sure.
Speaker 6 (32:49):
First, I didn't even want to believe it because I'm like,
what's well? I still used her like literally just bizarre
and klind isel bit scared because she literally knows my
tire life.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Denika is haunted by this. She knows how much she
has shared and that's left her feeling exposed and vulnerable.
Would the real person behind Kaylee come searching for her?
Would that person come to Adelaide?
Speaker 6 (33:13):
It's start side now actually, And now I just feel
like so stupid because her talks to someone that they've
hasn't met. There was a lion, you know, and it's
scary at it. It put all they'll trust into this
person seeking as so well, I thought, well, how can.
Speaker 9 (33:28):
This person do this for so long, pretending to be
someone else?
Speaker 6 (33:32):
And why would they do it?
Speaker 8 (33:35):
You know, because they said she treated us like her
mum and her sister and it's her and Frush and
annoying that she's done all this for what what reason
would she get out of doing this?
Speaker 6 (33:47):
So upset to me the most, you know.
Speaker 9 (33:52):
Talking to six years to this person thinking she's all
this and then boom, find it out she's not.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yeah, it was very hard.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Danica connected with Crystal online and learned Crystal's image had
been used for years to trick people. Crystal told her
about Natalia, about trying to get something done to stop it,
and how she'd been unsuccessful. She told Danica, who was
confused and lost with the absence of such a close friend,
that Natalia likely spent so many years in contact because
(34:23):
she'd found a special connection. It was a kind theory
that Danica was the close and genuine friend this lonely
imposter needed, and the one who helped ease her pain.
Speaker 6 (34:35):
Was actually my old fuck again, maybe she's telling me
the truth. And then as when I funded camee then
she wouldn't. I don't have a phone nn she were
nine to me back, so even to blockly was furden
me to be like, Wow, my whole entire plan of
life speaks to this person. Nothing.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Natalia knew the game was up. She wouldn't answer calls,
didn't respond messages, and eventually Janica cut herself free in
one final message, and this is what she said.
Speaker 11 (35:08):
What the actual fuck these past years of talking to
you isn't even you? Why would you pretend to be
someone else and talk to me like a fucking sister
and my whole life and so you have a fucking
daughter when you don't.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
You even faked and.
Speaker 11 (35:20):
Felt better about my nana passing away and caught us
all family yuck.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
You make me sick.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Danika then blocked her and in the time since, wounds
have started to heal and new friendships have formed, but
she still struggles to understand why Natalie has spent six
years being her big sister.
Speaker 6 (35:39):
She still think she's just one very not only female
and clearly doesn't have the life and has friends. So
she's just making so many friends on social media and
real connections.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah yeah, and it's really sad that she doesn't feel
that she can do that as herself.
Speaker 6 (35:57):
Yeah, And that's what I'm sad.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
It is that.
Speaker 6 (36:00):
And maybe she's jealous because Chris Stoy is absolutely stunning gown. Think,
oh yeah, I could talk to a lot of people
because look at her. She's staying so I can get
so many people and so many guys to talk to
me type of thing.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I have to agree with Danika here. Cat fishing all
these men is one thing, But spending years pretending to
be someone's long lost relative, treating them like a part
of your family. What is driving Natalia? And ties back
to the bigger question that was never really asked back
when I first reported on this. Who is the real
(36:38):
Natalia Burgess? And why has she done the thing she has?
I think it's about time I try and find that out.
You've been listening to Chasing Ghosts the Puppeteer, follow the
podcast and the Chasing Ghost Feed on iHeartRadio or wherever
you get your podcasts, and you can find more in
(37:00):
this case at incidherld dot co dot inz. Ethanselves as
my producer with audio engineering by alistair Boys. Thanks to
my colleagues for lending their voices to this episode. If
you have a story about this case, contact me at
David dot Fisher at inzidherld dot co dot inz. And
if you believe you've encountered behavior online that matches what
(37:22):
we've discussed in this series, you can find help at
netsafe dot org, dot inzed, but if you feel at risk,
don't hesitate, contact police.
This podcast started with the story of Laura West, how
this blonde, attractive, promising young woman lost her life in
a car crash. You've heard how her death left a
young daughter without a mother and sisters grieving the loss
of their brightest light. And of course you know now
that Laura didn't exist, and that there was no car crash. Instead,
(00:21):
the crash, Laura, her sisters, and her daughter were all
just the creation of one woman, a woman called Natalia Burgess.
In twenty ten, Natalia killed off Laura like a character
in an end of season soap opera. At that point,
Natalia had been creating online fantasy worlds and deceiving people
(00:43):
online for so long she had outlasted some of the
world's biggest social media companies. She's told me she started
doing this in two thousand and one when she was seventeen,
and now Natalia is forty. But on the Internet she
can be whatever age she chooses to be, and for
a time, when she first put on the face of
(01:03):
character Laura Jane West, she was sixteen. In recent times,
she's used Crystal Jenice Photographs to create the person of
Kaylie Littellly, a twenty seven year old single mum. Sometimes
Kaylie has a different surname, but no matter the name,
the game remains the same. To live the life online
she feels she can't have in our real world with
(01:26):
those invented selves. She insinuates away inside the lives that
those convinced she is real, and once inside their lives, well,
there's a reason she's called herself the puppeteer. She plays
with people's lives, and so far in this series, we've
been talking about the boys and men she's targeted, and
there's many of those stories to tell, but there were
(01:48):
other stories to tell, stories about others Natalia has fooled.
Because for Natalia has not just boys and men. She's
also gone after families.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
She's a shadow stalker and she got so far into
my personal space. I don't trust people. It was like
she was.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Stalking you from Afarre, knowing every movie it had done.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
This is Emma and her mum Bernie, talking about their
encounter with Laura West and Laura's sister Abby, all characters
created by Natalia Burgess over about two years. Natalia breathed
life and reality into those characters, so much so that
she convinced Bernie and Emma that she was a blood relative,
(02:36):
that she was Emma's cousin and Bernie's niece. Unlikely as
it sounds, it shows how completely utterly convincing Natalia can be,
and just how good she is at taking the threads
of someone's life and weaving them into a convincing narrative.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
To know about a family member I hadn't spoken to
and who he had passed away, people would go by
different Alis's but knew their proper birth name.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
It was part of a process that led to Natalia's
false characters becoming fully integrated into Bernie and Emma's lives.
Once inside their lives, Natalia then created scenarios and situations
that would turn Emma and Bernie's world upside down.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
Even to this day, I'm always looking over my shoulder.
I don't want friendships because of this. To watch my
daughter's self destruct on some silly little dream. This woman ad,
I'll never forgive it.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
With that control, Natalia put Emma and Bernie inside the
false world she created, then fed them a stream of scenarios,
some good, some bad, but all carried out by invented characters.
Put mother and daughter on a roller coaster of emotions
as they were drawn through love, romance, heartbreak, and the
(03:54):
made up car crash that killed Laura West. We've heard
from a few mothers in their daughters so far. In
this case, the likes of Crystal and Lucy el Jenna
knew from the start of their interactions with Natalia that
they were dealing with a catfisher for Ebra and Bernie,
though they were lied to and tricked for years. It's
(04:15):
a type of catfishing wildly different to anything else we've
discussed so far in this series, and not like any
other case I've heard before. This is Chasing Ghosts the
Puppeteer and I'm David Fisher, an investigative reporter who started
trying to understand Natalia Burgess thirteen years ago, and every
time I think I'm getting close, something comes along that
(04:39):
completely changes the game in terms of volume. Natalia's false
characters churned through guys in depth and intensity, though she
seems to be looking for something else. I don't think
I understood this when our paths first crossed. I found
over the years when bring out an investigation into an
(05:01):
individual that a profile builds my head. The quirks Tech's
personality traits of the person on whom I'm intensely focused.
It helps build an understanding of who you're dealing with,
to understand the reasons why your subject might behave in
a certain way. And with Natalia, I had such a
profile in my mind. It was built with interviews with
(05:22):
those she had interacted with and after spending hours with
her doing interviews, and the foundation of the profile I'd
built was what I'd learned that she was targeting young
teenagers online, and she created a carousel of characters through
which she engaged with those boys. Back then and for
years after, Natalia, in my mind, was someone driven by
(05:44):
an urge to connect with young teen boys for sexual reasons.
Now I think I know better there's something else driving Natalia.
The turning point was discovering Bernie and Emma in New Zealand,
who Natalia become involved with fifteen years ago. Until now,
I'd seen Natalia as a predator. Now, for all the
(06:09):
pain she's caused, I see her differently. Emma was at
high school when she met Natalia online through the Laura
West character. Emma had not long had her first child,
who has been looked after by Bernie, and trying to
adjust to the dual roles of being a teenager and
a mum.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I received a friend's request on Facebook and then I
had a message in the message request saying to me,
I'm your cousin's cousin. I was like, okay, we've never
heard of you. And then I was asking her, you know,
how she knew my family and things like that, and
she was saying everything to the point where it was
(06:47):
like she was in the family and she knew too much.
And then she said that we had already met where
men with hunaus and beerre just in passing generally. And
then she knew a lot about me to the point
where she knew my son's father. She knew the whole
family rite down to the tea.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Just in case there's any confusion. Natalia didn't know and
hadn't met Emma or Bernie. Let's also remember Laura West
isn't real. And yet Natalia was able to introduce family
facts and personal information that helped Ford's trust very quickly.
(07:26):
And that's even though Bernie was doing all she thought
a good parent should do.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
That was at that time where you know, Mum still
patrolled our facebooks and having that sense of security. Mum
was even given me the twenty questions like who is this?
I was like, well, she seems to be a cousin
of a cousin. So that's how you know. Mum got
on board because she ended up calling her Auntie.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Bernie had ruled the computer stayed in the sitting room.
She wanted to know who's at the other end of
the internet connection. She needed to know the part words
of kids' social media accounts, and she even insisted on
speaking on the phone to this Laura West, who become
friends with her daughter. None of that was a barrier
(08:13):
to Natalia.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
When she mentioned a family member that I hadn't spoken
to for at least fifteen years, that's oh, okay, you
do know, yeah, it must be the relation of that relation.
I'll telling you something that you wouldn't I. She knew
so far into my life. She knew I had lost
(08:35):
my son and where he is laying at Reece. She
knew the cemetery, she knew the date, she knew a
date that was born. A lot of you know Emma's girlfriends,
they didn't know that because it was quite a while ago.
But this is how first she got into my personal life.
Speaker 1 (08:54):
Hook line and Catfish.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
It was like, my life consisted of messaging her twenty
four to seven because she was bringing tyme be a
life story, and I'd always say, oh, should we you know, hey,
cous you know, because it got to the point where
I believe that your you know cousin, So I was
like calling your cousin.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
There were things that didn't add up. They were minor
and it wasn't until later that they were red flags,
seen only with the benefit of hindsight. For example, and
this is consistent with Natalia's targets. She avoided video calls
or FaceTime, and she would organize meetings in real life
only to have some drama emerged that meant that the
(09:34):
meeting couldn't go ahead.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
Oh you know, the car broke down or I'm too
junk to drive or what was the other famous one?
Speaker 2 (09:42):
I miss the bus.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
I missed the buss. That's it.
Speaker 1 (09:44):
Yeah, And I was like, it's fair to say that
Emma was a volatile teenager. She was just sixteen at
the time that she met Natalia. When Natalie was around
a decade older. Emma thought she was bonding with a
long lost cousin who was the same age. Both of
them navigating their difficult teenage years. In reality, something different
(10:05):
was happening. As would emerge in the years to come.
Natalie was soaking up the life experiences of Emma and
Bernie and incorporating those experiences into the lives of her
fantasy world characters, and as it became clear, she was
meddling in a dangerous and difficult stage of Emma's life
in a way that had significant repercussions. I've spoken about
(10:29):
the death of Laura West, the decision by Natalia in
December twenty ten to kill off the young woman that
she created, causing huge upset among those she bonded with online. Well,
there are layers to this, and here's the first we know.
Natalia posted news of Laura's death to Facebook, but when
(10:49):
it came to Bernie, she took a different track. That
morning of December sixth, Bernie's phone rang.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
Every run Mom and I are to mess. We thought
it was a genue when light cry for like grieving.
You know, So Laura is dead and my mom was like,
what do you mean she's dead? We were just talking
to the other day. She was like, no, shared a
car crash and she's dead. They deal with the ICU,
but she didn't make it.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Laura's gone. So this is Abby still Natalia, but using
a different voice. This is Abby who's messaging and speaking
with Bernie and Emma. This is right in the middle
of the shop. News of Laura's death, and Abbie's contact
has a particular purpose.
Speaker 3 (11:32):
How do I plan a funeral? Got no idea? You know,
she would want it this way. What she says, she goes,
I would like you and your mom to carry her,
you know, stowed away. Well, there's no parent that she
took her a pearance or no. No, she didn't talk
to her a parents, So we were like her parents.
Where were all she had about me?
Speaker 1 (11:50):
At the time. Emma wasn't at home. Remember I described
her as a volatile teenager. She was juggling a lot.
And there was an event one which Natalia is believed
to have instigated, that led to Emma leaving home and
living elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (12:07):
And then I've got a message or a phone call
at the home saying she's dead. Your cousin is dead.
And no, that's sent both of us spiraling.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
In that event that Natalia is believed to have instigated. Well,
that was about Peter Russell. Remember Peter He was Raywan
Ford's son who took his life in twenty ten. Rayman
has forever linked his suicide to Natalia, entangling him in
a rollercoaster relationship with Laura West, though no official inquiry
(12:40):
has offered any reasons that can be published. Certainly, I
know from covering many coronial hearings there's almost always multiple
reasons for suicide. Well before the relationship with Peter and
Laura came Peter and Emma.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
So me and Peter we met randomly. I think it
was as I was always at his house in christ Church.
We were on and off for a wee back, you know,
so excited young love. I was like, oh, got someone,
and she was like, oh, you know, asking the twenty questions.
Trying to be that so called protective family member.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Emma told Natalia all about Peter, including his name.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
And then all of a sudden, she's I've got to
be a partner now. I'm like, she was almost to
the point where she had to.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Have what I had.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Me and Pete drifted away, That's right.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Laura West cut in on cousin Emma, and.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
Then we just started drifting away. And then he said
to me and am I was like, what's up? And
he goes, I thank I'm falling in love with this girl.
And I was like, you need to follow you, you
need to do what you need.
Speaker 1 (13:43):
To do well teenage Emma. It was devastating but troubling
too to see the changes that came over Peter in
that difficult online relationship.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
He was like a schoolcad all over again, for like
its fierce love.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
He proposed, she accepted, then rejected the proposal, cup and
got together again and then broke up again. It was
all the drama all the time, and the change to
Peter was there to see.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
A huge, huge m back, like and it's like he's
lost as well, like isn't doing do anything? He didn't
he on benders.
Speaker 4 (14:18):
I still remember a.
Speaker 3 (14:19):
Message I got from me. He goes, well, she's she's
broken up with me again, but I think this times
for real. I'm just going to go on the bender
and just ended all. I vividly remember that message and
I was trying to talk him out of it, and
then I called him his nickname and he goes, I
need to wake up from this, Like how can a
girl take advantage of me? You know, I lost everything
(14:40):
I gave her everything. It was hard. It was really hard.
He wasn't himself or he had There was a complete
empty shell to the person that I fell in love with.
It was quite scary to think, you know, this big, bright,
bubbly personality that he always had, you know that eOne
knew you for, and it's just empty, like completely and utterly. Indeed,
(15:01):
Emma was hurting but locked it down. She was determined
to give them space, not to be that ex girlfriend.
But all the time she was nursing pain.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
That's when Abbie came, and you know, Emma was hurt
of what happened. And I was watching this unfold. But
Emma and her persona of a front that I'm okay,
but she wasn't.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Bernie's take on it, in hindsight was that Natalie wasn't
getting whatever it was she was looking for from Emma.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
So all of a sudden, we've got a new person
coming into play, and that was Abby. And Abby seemed
very genuine, more so than any of the other people.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Abby she was so genuine, like she was trying to
say how she was disgusted how her mate ye made
Laura had done what she'd done, Like she was like,
you know, one of those high school friends, like backstabbing
her best friend to her deserve it, Like, yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:01):
She was real, She's just so manipulating.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Believable, Yeah, she was believable. Bizarrely, this conflict between characters
played out online, Ernie and Emma watching as Laura's friends
turned on her, remonstrating, yeah, we were just watching.
Speaker 5 (16:17):
It on face you know, you hop on Facebook or
whatever it was at the time, and you'd watched this
fight going on like Keyboard Warriors, but didn't.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Realize it was the same person.
Speaker 4 (16:31):
And one was.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
Saying this, one was saying that, and then this one
would back off off, and it was just blowing up,
and you.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
Actually believed it was real.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
That was a wait, and it added to what Emma
was already dealing with the death of a friend in
a car crash. It was later that she realized the
real world tragedy in early twenty ten served as a
template for the death of Laura West.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
But it was quite weird because it was the same
kind of car crash that actually happened to a lateral
life friend, real person, and she genuinely died in the
car crash. It was you know, I still get over
pet and then all of a sudden, I'm grieving for
this cousin that I'd never met but was really close with.
So you know, she was playing on our emotions with
(17:20):
that one.
Speaker 2 (17:22):
It's like she got into our emotions and she knew
our stories of our friends and our family, and she
could worm me way into that story and make a
fiction story of it.
Speaker 1 (17:35):
It was crazy.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
It was like she knew where to hit us where
it hurt.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
For Emma, this was a time of profound instability. There
were aspects of her behavior that made it, for a
time impossible for her to be at home, and with
Tatalia in the mix, that volatility increased exponentially. I asked
Emma what the impact was on her, but it was
a mum Bernie who spoke first, self distruct Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Literally, I went down the path of what stealing, getting
locked up all the time. I was like so close
to going jail, so close to going jail. I was
getting towards the alcohol became alcohol depending at seventeen, just
running myself into the ground like I was over. I
was going to go join them, and I was at
(18:21):
that stage I couldn't take any more, and then turned
into the drugs as well, and I turned to the drugs.
Speaker 5 (18:28):
I was watching my daughter self destruct and there's nothing
like go out of this.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
This woman destroyed my family. I was so close to
losing my daughter.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
There was a drunken stumble by Natalia that New Year's
Eve when she introduced herself with her own name. She
talked fast to paper over the cracks in her story,
Emma and Burnie recall, but it did create a seed
of doubt. And then came the reporting about four months
later who was really behind the face of Laura West?
(19:04):
And the truth was out. But even though that reporting
was followed by police chargers and at court hearing, Emma
still found herself struggling to believe it was all fake.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
I was disgusted, like and still believing that she was
my cousin, like she'd manipulated me that much. I was like, Nah,
that's my cousin, and like, no, that's this not who
she is, This is my cousin, Like I wanted to
protect there at saying zion, I don't know why, but
I was shocked and I'm thinking, well, okay, there's so
many unanswered questions at the same time, so I.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
Was I don't know, I was shell shocked.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
I was numb, and I probably a lot of gelt. Yeah,
I lived with the gelt because I felt I'd put
my daughter through as it was like a grief.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
It really is like a grief proving all these family
members and friends that really real.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Yeah, and to realize, you know, someone had done this
to my family and even to this day is still
doing it within the mind.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
The relationship between Emma Bernie and Natalia as Laura lasted
for nearly two years, but ended when I exposed Natalia
and the Hero on Sunday. You know the story by now,
that Natalia went to jail, I thought she would stop
her puppeteering and then founded twenty twenty two. She was
masquerading as others. But not only did she start targeting
(20:31):
men again. Once Natalia got out of jail, she set
her sights on infiltrating another family and just like the men,
she now turned to Australia, landing in Adelaide, where she
found mother and daughter Danica and Lisa Danika Baxter. Like
Emma met Natalia while she was at school. By her account,
(20:54):
this was twenty sixteen.
Speaker 6 (20:56):
I met so in a friend's Facebook group, so like
just wanting friends. Then she started messaging me under a
name called Kaylee. Then we headed off pretty well.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Kaylie said she was a decade older than Danneka, who
was sixteen at the time. In reality, Natalia at that
time would have been around thirty two. This time, Natalie
was using the name Kaylee. Remember that friend Emma actually
lost in a car crash. Her name was Kaylee. Natalia's
(21:32):
fantasy world had taken a different direction since jail here
in twenty sixteen is the earliest I've found where she's
using Crystal Jenner's image. Around that time, she created a
new cast of characters. She told Daniker and Lisa she
had a daughter, Lily Rose, and as time went on,
linked herself to the well known family from Auckland, the Littalis.
(21:55):
Daniker is now twenty four, but she and her mum
remember the woman they knew as Kaylie Rose or Kaylee
Litelly was that kind.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Of normal like mom life.
Speaker 7 (22:06):
She was blonde from New Zealand, very pretty, oh yeah,
very pretty, treated us as her own sample like kept
calling me her little sister, like auntie to.
Speaker 6 (22:19):
Her daughter, and then like my mom, her mom.
Speaker 8 (22:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
It was like felt so real, so much that This
is familiar from speaking with Emma and Bernie.
Speaker 6 (22:29):
Oh God, were talked about how literally answering the whole
entire life. She's backs on me in my life, all
my exys, my grandma, that Sazi passed away, and my
niece sent photos to each other. She'd message down ink
one minute.
Speaker 9 (22:45):
And then she said, I'm like, oh, were you talking
to Kaye? And then she'd hang out, but then she'd
talk to me and yeah, or some jobs together.
Speaker 6 (22:53):
She kept messing us Nelly every day, yep. And if
Danny your head a roun like we had a fight,
he could ring and asked for advice. And then godra
Aran in Ireland. Yeah, I just really.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
Thought she was wrong.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Kaylee called Danicas sis and Lisa mum. She messaged and
spoke to both women for around six years. It sounds,
I said, as if Kaylee was a part of the
family brtually, even.
Speaker 6 (23:18):
Though that sounds we are we are starting.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
But yeah, there's large chunks of the interview with Danika
and her mum Lisa that I could play, but I'm
pretty sure you'd start to feel like you'd heard it before,
and you would have because much of what happened with
Emma and Bernie happened in just the same way. Contact
started with the schoolgirl Emma or Danka, but quickly grew
to incorporate their mums, Bernie and Lisa. The contact was
(23:45):
initially over messenger, but then changed to include voice calls,
and there was always a reason why those voice calls
didn't include video. Here's Danika, I'm cooking dinner.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
I've just put Lily down for a sleeve so I
don't want to wake her.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
And here's Emma.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
I was like, do you want to FaceTime? She's like, oh,
I'm busy. I'm just getting out the shower. I've got
an apployment or you know. My wife was playing up
and I was like, oh good. I never thought anything
of it.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
It sort of Talia became a major influence in Emma's life,
and then later with Danica. She was with them for
major life events. For Emma, it was the loss of
a friend in a car crash. For Danica, it was
helping her cope with the death of her grandmother.
Speaker 6 (24:28):
I think I told kay Lee that, oh, hey, Grandma,
my Nada passed away, and then she was like, oh,
I'm so sorry to hear. He was Sandy her love
and support, and then when it came to us, so
I think once she said I wish I was out
to support you know, I'm like, no, it's all good.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
And guess what it wasn't long after that Kaylee's own
grandmother died. It was news Kaylee broke to Danica and
I can see messages from that time that Kaylee couldn't
help but double down.
Speaker 10 (25:00):
Grandma died of old age, Vicki of cancer and May
last year and Liam, when he was fifteen, he was murdered.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Who were these three people? Were any of them real?
There was a Vicula Tally who died in May twenty seventeen,
someone Natalia likely met behind bars. The two were sentenced
to the same prison. Vicula Tally was serving three years
on fraud chargers at the same time as that Talia
had gone away. Of Liam. Danaka recalls that Kaylie spoke
(25:30):
of him as a brother, and yet there's no evidence
of a teenage at that age by the name of
Liam being murdered in New Zealand in the last twenty years.
As for Grandma, well, it definitely wasn't Kayley's grandmother because
Kayleie's just not real What's so striking about Danika and
(25:52):
Lisa's contact with Natalia is how long it went on
for by their account, and there are copies of many
text mess sug just to support this. Their connection lasted
from twenty sixteen through to twenty twenty two, and those
messages show an incredible level of drama injected into the relationship,
(26:12):
all in the context of Kaylee's daily life. There's plenty
of mundane chitchat between the two, which we've had voiced
by two actors.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
Pal's Lily Rose. She is playing outside.
Speaker 10 (26:23):
Oh cute, She's got a scooter she plays on now
she's whipped it out, And.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
There's major life changing moments. Both the good be happy.
Speaker 4 (26:31):
I am moving back. My new boyfriend lives in Adelaide.
Who's your new boyfriend? Nathan? No, so hopefully this swks
up for you both. And the bad babe, what's happened
with you and Nathan? Nothing.
Speaker 10 (26:41):
We had a tiny fight at two am when we
were both tired. I think we are okay.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
Natalia would share photographs with Danaker and Lisa, One of
a preschool girl was supposed to be Kaylee's daughter, Lily Rose. Instead,
the child pictured is the daughter of a friend of
Crystal Jenny's. Remember, Tarlia didn't only harvest crystal social media output,
she cast the net wide across her friend circle in
(27:07):
a bid to find more building blocks for her fantasy world.
Natalia has such a store of photographs from Crystal and
her friends that there's almost one for every occasion. There
were Christmas photographs, shopping pictures, precious family moments at a park.
At an early stage. The discovery they had the same
birth dates delighted Daneka. It's a coincidence, she now sees
(27:30):
with some cynicism. When Daneka was turning twenty and fictitious
Kaylee was turning thirty. Four years after they first met.
There are a bounty of photographs showing Kaylee celebrating their
joint birthday celebrations. The messages are an archive of the
fabric of life, written large by a longtime fantasist. The
messaging between them covers such a broad range of life dramas.
(27:54):
There's new loves, there's new breakups. Together, they shared joy
and frustration. In one lengthy exchange, Kaylee bored, Natalia tells
Danica how her current boyfriend should be treating her better,
and then Kaylee goes a step further by messaging the
boyfriend Danka.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Was good to you and you hurt her. We just
passed me off being her big sister.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
In Danka's case, there was at least a real relationship.
Speaker 10 (28:22):
Tell mom she's going to be a grandma in October again,
thanks Bobe, Mom and I so congratulations.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Thanks. Me and Jaden are so happy.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
That's the same Jada and we met last episode. The
man who found out she wasn't real the same day
he met her online.
Speaker 4 (28:38):
Mom said how are you and Lily Rose? We're good.
Speaker 10 (28:41):
She was at my last scan and got so excited
when she heard the baby's heartbeat.
Speaker 4 (28:44):
That's good to hear. And oh, she's going to be
a big sister. Fingers crossed. It's a boy cross them hard.
Jaden wants a boy to.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
A month later, the scams were in and it turned
out a boy wasn't on the way.
Speaker 10 (28:55):
How about we name my daughter Summer Danica Louise Latali Grazier.
Speaker 4 (29:00):
You're having another daughter? Why my name? Because you're a
little sets.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
And another month passes, then how's your pregnancy going?
Speaker 4 (29:07):
Good? Sirs? Thank you? Scan next week?
Speaker 11 (29:09):
That's good and oh so exciting I can't wait to
give Lily her little sister.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
And then a month later, in a message timestamp six
point thirty pm, the slow drip of news about an
imminent sister for Lily Rose took a dark turn.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
We lost the baby. OMG, how I went an early
labour Han win baby at three pm today.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
The drama was constant, and it often escalated to previously
unreached height or sunk to new debts in a way
that is reminiscent again of a soap opera seeking out
a new, gripping narrative twist. For a period in twenty nineteen,
Danika and Lisa lived with the worst of one of
(29:49):
those scenarios. It started with a text like most did,
but this time Natalia had taken on a new identity.
Speaker 12 (29:58):
Kaylee and Nikoma. She overdosed after Greg broke up with
her this morning after losing her grandpa last night. Gregged
up to her this morning. It was all too much for her.
Speaker 4 (30:07):
Well is she going to be okay? What about Lily Rose?
Speaker 12 (30:10):
She's at her grandmother's house. We've got no idea how
long she was unconscious for before Ashley found her.
Speaker 4 (30:15):
Okay, Thanks may I Ascomb talking to please Dave her brother.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
That brother is Dave thet Tally, also known as Butterbean,
the former pro boxer who's become quite a prominent social advocate.
I've confirmed with the Tally family that this was not
Dave who was messaging Dannika, and that messaging went on
for days.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
How's Keyley in.
Speaker 12 (30:38):
A medical coma for now? To let her body heal
from all the pills she took?
Speaker 4 (30:42):
Okay? Well, hope she will be okay thinking of her.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
There were others who rang while Kayley was in a coma.
Speaker 6 (30:48):
That was her, but in a different voice.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
It's just that's bizarre.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
And then Kaylee was back and sending photographs from inside
the hospital.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
How you feeling sis like an idiot?
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Why?
Speaker 4 (31:00):
Because he never loved me? Lol? I tried to kill
myself over a loser.
Speaker 11 (31:04):
You were better without him. Now, listen to me. Never
do anything stupid again, Promise, Keeley. I got so scared.
Me and mine were crying. Liver's needs a beautiful mom
in her life.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
The contact is constant. It's about men and relationships, cheating
and being cheated on. Danica talks of being messaged by
friends of Kayleie's and there's no evidence these were real people,
but it was all part of an ongoing, developing narrative.
When Kaylee met new guys online, she would start a
group chat and pull Daniker in, this is my new guy.
Speaker 6 (31:34):
She would say, if I had to argue with my mom,
all that we partners and all that, so used to ask,
and she'll give me the best advice. Said some of
the advice she gave me, it was honestly amazing, And yeah,
it's so great to just touch down my name to
and lean on and talk to when you need someone
because she is always there.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
And then came the discovery it was all a lie.
When Danica stumbled across the real Crystal Jenna line.
Speaker 9 (32:00):
She saw this photo of her on TikTok and she goes,
that's Kad, but she's gone by a.
Speaker 6 (32:06):
Different name, right, thought, okay, this is strange.
Speaker 3 (32:10):
And then when we found out, Yeah, it was a shot.
Speaker 9 (32:13):
Big shot, especially after talking draw for what five six
years Allie and then finding out.
Speaker 6 (32:20):
She's not real. Yeah, and he think, why would a
person do this?
Speaker 1 (32:25):
It took Danika a while to be able to have
a proper conversation with Crystal. To her, it seemed unreal
that her friend, her big sister of six years didn't
actually exist, and I'm real that the face associated with
that friend belonged to a different woman. For a while,
she wanted to go to the Gold Coast and meet
(32:45):
Crystal face to face so she would know for sure.
Speaker 6 (32:49):
First, I didn't even want to believe it because I'm like,
what's well? I still used her like literally just bizarre
and klind isel bit scared because she literally knows my
tire life.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Denika is haunted by this. She knows how much she
has shared and that's left her feeling exposed and vulnerable.
Would the real person behind Kaylee come searching for her?
Would that person come to Adelaide?
Speaker 6 (33:13):
It's start side now actually, And now I just feel
like so stupid because her talks to someone that they've
hasn't met. There was a lion, you know, and it's
scary at it. It put all they'll trust into this
person seeking as so well, I thought, well, how can.
Speaker 9 (33:28):
This person do this for so long, pretending to be
someone else?
Speaker 6 (33:32):
And why would they do it?
Speaker 8 (33:35):
You know, because they said she treated us like her
mum and her sister and it's her and Frush and
annoying that she's done all this for what what reason
would she get out of doing this?
Speaker 6 (33:47):
So upset to me the most, you know.
Speaker 9 (33:52):
Talking to six years to this person thinking she's all
this and then boom, find it out she's not.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Yeah, it was very hard.
Speaker 1 (34:00):
Danica connected with Crystal online and learned Crystal's image had
been used for years to trick people. Crystal told her
about Natalia, about trying to get something done to stop it,
and how she'd been unsuccessful. She told Danica, who was
confused and lost with the absence of such a close friend,
that Natalia likely spent so many years in contact because
(34:23):
she'd found a special connection. It was a kind theory
that Danica was the close and genuine friend this lonely
imposter needed, and the one who helped ease her pain.
Speaker 6 (34:35):
Was actually my old fuck again, maybe she's telling me
the truth. And then as when I funded camee then
she wouldn't. I don't have a phone nn she were
nine to me back, so even to blockly was furden
me to be like, Wow, my whole entire plan of
life speaks to this person. Nothing.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Natalia knew the game was up. She wouldn't answer calls,
didn't respond messages, and eventually Janica cut herself free in
one final message, and this is what she said.
Speaker 11 (35:08):
What the actual fuck these past years of talking to
you isn't even you? Why would you pretend to be
someone else and talk to me like a fucking sister
and my whole life and so you have a fucking
daughter when you don't.
Speaker 4 (35:19):
You even faked and.
Speaker 11 (35:20):
Felt better about my nana passing away and caught us
all family yuck.
Speaker 4 (35:24):
You make me sick.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Danika then blocked her and in the time since, wounds
have started to heal and new friendships have formed, but
she still struggles to understand why Natalie has spent six
years being her big sister.
Speaker 6 (35:39):
She still think she's just one very not only female
and clearly doesn't have the life and has friends. So
she's just making so many friends on social media and
real connections.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah yeah, and it's really sad that she doesn't feel
that she can do that as herself.
Speaker 6 (35:57):
Yeah, And that's what I'm sad.
Speaker 3 (35:59):
It is that.
Speaker 6 (36:00):
And maybe she's jealous because Chris Stoy is absolutely stunning gown. Think,
oh yeah, I could talk to a lot of people
because look at her. She's staying so I can get
so many people and so many guys to talk to
me type of thing.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
I have to agree with Danika here. Cat fishing all
these men is one thing, But spending years pretending to
be someone's long lost relative, treating them like a part
of your family. What is driving Natalia? And ties back
to the bigger question that was never really asked back
when I first reported on this. Who is the real
(36:38):
Natalia Burgess? And why has she done the thing she has?
I think it's about time I try and find that out.
You've been listening to Chasing Ghosts the Puppeteer, follow the
podcast and the Chasing Ghost Feed on iHeartRadio or wherever
you get your podcasts, and you can find more in
(37:00):
this case at incidherld dot co dot inz. Ethanselves as
my producer with audio engineering by alistair Boys. Thanks to
my colleagues for lending their voices to this episode. If
you have a story about this case, contact me at
David dot Fisher at inzidherld dot co dot inz. And
if you believe you've encountered behavior online that matches what
(37:22):
we've discussed in this series, you can find help at
netsafe dot org, dot inzed, but if you feel at risk,
don't hesitate, contact police.
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