September 24, 2024 • 59 mins
*TW* This content discusses topics such as suicide and mental distress.
Jazz speaks with Anna Muller about their journey from traumatic childhood, addiction and depression and finally finding hope after the intervention of a kind paramedic. Today Anna is wildly in love and helping other people find their voice.
Hope Is Real is a Podcast to help you feel a little less alone, a bit more inspired, and a lot more hopeful. Join Jazz Thornton every week as she speaks to empowering and inspiring people from around the world and shares their stories to normalise the way we talk about mental health in society.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The ziti In podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
It took me a while to realize that I wasn't happy,
and I was very blind to that. He looked at
me and he said, one more time. Let's just try
one more time. It's not always going to be this way,
and you have to stick around to see that through.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Hey, guys, welcome back to another episode of Hope Is Real,
the podcast. The podcast designed to help you feel a
little less alone, a bit more inspired, and of course
a lot more hopeful.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Now, today's guest is one that.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I know that I always say this that I'm very
excited about it, but it's because it's very true, and
I'm very excited about every single guest, but this one.
This person is one of my closest friends. It's someone
that I met on TikTok. If you're on TikTok, you've
probably seen this person before. Anna Muller. Anna's story went
viral last year. I think it was a story of
(00:55):
a paramedic that saved Anna's life when they were struggling
at their worst kind of point, at the point of
not wanting to be here anymore. And it tells the
crazy story that led up to that moment and everything
that has happened since Anna went through a divorce, got
diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and then decided to share all
(01:16):
of these struggles publicly in order to try and help people.
And Anna, like I said, is one of one of
my best friends at someone that I met on on
social media, which I know don't talk to strangers on
social media, but this is one that worked out. We've
been able to travel together. We have a thing of
going to horror nights on Halloween. I don't know why,
(01:37):
I'm terrified at all times, but we do it and
we're going again this year, of course. But this episode
is one that Anna is so raw and is so
real about the struggles that they faced, everything that they
went through, and also just the reality of what it
is to live with mental illness, to live in a
survival mechanism, to live kind of constantly on edge. But
(02:02):
the bravery that Anna has shown the ability to tell
the story in such a beautiful and meaningful way. And
I will, of course, as always, put a trigger warning
on this episode. Anna does talk about suicide attempts by
Paula and all of that kind of thing, So please,
as always, if you need to take a break, come
back to it, call it text to help line, a friend,
(02:24):
a family member. You are not in this alone, but
Anna's story is coming up right after this.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Anna, Welcome to Hope it thro all the podcast. Oh
my goodness, it has been a minute.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
We've been trying to get you on since season one
and then season two, and now here we are season three, and.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
You'll meet it only two seasons later. But we meet it, will.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I think our calendars just consistently we're clashing.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
But I know they were just like we're not working together.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
But I'm glad that this is happening now because we
can talk about before I get into literally anything else
in this episode.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Major news. You have a ring on your finger. You
are engaged. Yeah, yeah, what the heck?
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I need to tell everybody because I think that Cameron
has set like a standard that everyone should be following,
to the point that he messaged me asking for permission,
like me, your friend on the other side of the world,
asking for permission and being like I assume you're okay
with this, like if I propose to Anna, and I'm like, yes, yes.
(03:39):
It was the hardest secret I've had to keep, Like
I just, oh my goodness. But we will talk about
that soon because I've got.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
So many questions and there's so many stories that will
go into it.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
But first of all, let's just literally start all the
way back to where we met.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Social media it's a big thing.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
And I remember starting to see you on my TikTok
and being like this person's cool and following you. But
you had seen girl on the bridge before social media, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Before I was even online, Like I was not doing
anything online.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
That's wild. And then you join TikTok. What made you
join TikTok?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Not the way most people would think. I like, when
I joined, I was going through it. I was in
a very rough space. I think it was shortly after
I came out of the hospital, actually, and I was
so frustrated with like the mental health, like how that
was portrayed in media, which like not really at all.
So I literally just set up my phone and recorded
(04:48):
during my mental breakdowns and just talked to my camera
and but we're like, wait, this is me. I'm also
having a breakdown over this, like I'm not alone, And
so it started really crazy like that, but then turn
into a whole different thing.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
And I'm so grateful that you did because it meant
that we got to meet. I can't remember who slid
into whose dms, but there was some form of DM
sliding that happened.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I don't remember either.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
I just I remember the first time we met was
in La. Was it yes?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
La? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
It was La.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
It was La La. And then we went to New
York and then we did LA again. We have the
tendency to be going to horror nights, which is our
favorite thing to do.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I love horror nights.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
There's much footage of both of us just losing it
and you nearly breaking my hand, and some of the
horror houses.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And knocking us to the floor.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, because we're small as well, and so these massive
guys with the chainsaws were just like bloody chase us
around all the time and leave everyone else alone, just
be following us through. It was terrifying, and yet we
just kept going back because it was.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Cis feel good scary said something about us. I.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, but it's not think there about that too much.
You can't overthink that.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Hey.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I obviously your story is has been widely known online.
You've been very very open about it and the things
that you've been through. But I would love to kind
of go right back to the start, what was your childhood?
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Like, Oh, that's a question, And I say that because
there's so much duality in it. I had so many
great moments in my very young childhood that I remember
and I loved, I'm very grateful for, but I had
so many painful ones, and unfortunately those ones to go
out a lot more and a lot of us. I
(06:46):
actually didn't realize until I went to therapy and processed
everything that happened in my childhood, and I was like, okay,
so everything adds up. You know. I was a kid
who had normal kid behaviors. I was a kid. The
issue was it was mishandled and I was failed in
a lot of ways. And I think at six I
(07:10):
saw my first psychiatrists really just from behavioral issues. But
again they were more behavioral issues because I wasn't being helped.
I was very misunderstood and I wasn't being seen. And
I remember I actually recently found those files from my
psychiatrist when I was six, never got to read them
(07:31):
before until now, and I remember reading them and the
psychiatrist describing me at that time, and he said, you know,
he described me as anxious, which I knew, but he
also said I had learned helplessness, which shook me because
I don't know how a six year old has learned helplessness.
(07:56):
And I really had to like look into that, and basically,
it's like, you go into so many difficult, stressful events
where you don't have control and you don't have a
voice and you can't help yourself, where it's being taken
away from you that you under you start to understand
that it's not worth trying, like there's no point in trying,
(08:18):
so you just stop.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
And that was in your files at six years old.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah, wow, yeah, that's that is not even something I
can comprehend that as a six year old. A professional
can sit you down and you are presenting so much
in a way that that is what they are seeing, right, this?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
What that?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
So what do you think you were? Kind of like
early signs.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Were that there were behaviors, that things weren't quite okay.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
I really struggled academically, and that was noticed as soon
as I entered school, you know, first grade. I was
getting help academically, and that really wasn't because I wasn't
trying or not understand these concepts. I just learned outside
of the academic box, which is common for a lot
of people. I didn't learn the standard way, and I
(09:17):
really struggled to conform to that, and that's where help
was pushed onto me in a way that made it
was good intent, but it made me understand myself as
broken and something needed to be fixed. So things really
started going downhill, I would say third grade and then
just kind of I feel like intensified up until my
(09:41):
early twenties.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Do you remember like a key moment when you realized, like,
I'm not I'm not normal and comparable you know what
even normal is? Where you realized that your brain was
working differently to your peers. Was it like a key
moment that stands out to you for that?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I would say it was sometime closer to third grade
as well. I was being pulled out of the classrooms
a lot. I was seeing different kinds of therapists like
speech pathologists. I was seeing tutors. I was having people
come into the classroom to be there to support me.
I'm again I'm sure it was good, intense, but I
(10:27):
was seeing all these different services that were being given
to me, and I would made me feel so different
and that was really when it sunk into my brain,
I was like, I'm different, and not a positive way.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
What impact did that have on your teenage years?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
A huge one, A huge one, And I like get
so frustrated looking back because I was like, there were
so many things that could have been done differently to
prevent what happened after that, you know it that kind
of translated into bullying later on, and then trauma. It
(11:08):
was like a mesh of just really horrible events all
at the same time. I remember I was like thirteen,
so that was my first sexual assault at thirteen, and
that's when again I say it's bullying, but it's very
hard for me to describe it that way because sometimes
(11:30):
you think of bullying and you think of people just
saying mean things or making you feel bad, And for me,
it was, you know, people were coming to my home
and destroying it. We had the police at my home frequently.
I was getting death threats, I was getting suicide encouragements.
It was that really really messed me up, and I
(11:52):
was very very unwell. So as I was, I turned
into a teenage addict essentially, like I had so much,
so many distortions about myself and genuinely believed I was
a broken, horrible, horrible person who was not loved and I,
as a young teen, I couldn't tolerate it. I didn't
(12:15):
know what to do with that I had. I never
learned those coping skills or how to regulate that. So
drugs were the only thing that were there to make
me feel like, Okay, for a minute.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
How old were you when you first had your first substance?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Thirteen? Wow?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Thirteen years old.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
If you could talk to the people that were sending
you those death threats encouraging you to take your own
life now, at the age that you're at, if you
could face them head on, what would you say to them.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I'm not angry, I think that's the thing. I feel
bad that they were in a place that they were
able to be so cruel to someone else, right, because
you think of people who do cruel things to others
and are hateful, and those things were taught, you know,
(13:18):
like people don't just come out of the womb being mean.
I wasn't always that way. I was angry for a
long time, but that was also very toxic to me,
and I just I feel bad for them that they
were in a place where something happened to them that
they were there and that's kind of how that resulted
(13:40):
for them. But it took a lot of a lot
of therapy for me to get to a place where
I'm not angry anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
The maturity in that is phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
I think, you know, I spend a lot of my
time with high school students, and the message that we
always put out is that usually bullies have a bigger
bully in their life and that's what makes them feel
like it's an okay or an appropriate behavior. And to
get to a place where, even though the impact it
had on you literally nearly cost you your life, alongside
(14:13):
a whole bunch of other things, to be in a
position of understanding that the common saying of hurt people
hurt people is something that's so different to just hear
the sentence and then to actually believe it and to
walk with that and to have that kind of forgiveness almost.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Is a completely different thing.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
And like I know that you know your teenage years
very kind of similar but very different as well to
mine of realizing that it was so different to what
a lot of people grew up with. And I used
to get so jealous of like other people just living
(14:52):
their best lives and like going on family holidays or
waking up and being happy and being like why can't
I have that? When you started using substances, did you
feel like that was like helping you escape what was
going on in your head?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Very temporarily. It never lasted, if anything, I mean, alcohols
are depressent. It that one that one really spiraled me.
It was super temporary, and I immediately like bounced back
into my other mental spirals, you know, it just and
that translated to so many other mental health things where
(15:35):
you know, I was engaging in other behaviors like self
harm behaviors, and then I was just in the hospital often.
So like, yes, it took the edge off momentarily, but
it never lasted. It never lasted for long.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Did that obviously?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
When you started at thirteen and then kind of went
through your teenage years, were you starting to try and
experiment with different kinds of drugs as you were going on?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, so it's like at thirteen I had my first drink,
But actually alcohol never ended up being something I had
an issue with, which is funny, especially now when I
say I'm sober, people associate sober with alcohol when really
what happened for me was I quickly went to things
that were harder because I that wasn't enough. So I
(16:29):
did that, and then I did start experimenting with really
anything I could get my hands on. But I did
have very specific like drugs of choice that I fell
into more so than others, and those kind of like
became my normal.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
What do you think you could say to people to help,
especially like family and friends of people who are addicts,
to understand how those behaviors and reliance on substance can form,
because I think that society has already kind of boxed
addicts into being one thing. But no one is born
(17:07):
and goes, I'm going to do this one day and
like that. It's just not that's not in the human nature, right,
Like that's something that has come from needing an escape
or needing to feel something else. Like what would you
say to people who do are in that kind of
more judgmental phase and don't yet understand how someone could
get to that point.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, I think it's really important to know that no one,
like like you said, no one wakes up and it's
like I want to be an addict, you know, For
some people, it can start with experimenting with you know,
it does happen with kids who are in middle school,
high school. You know, drugs are around, drugs are prevalent.
(17:48):
Some kids try it here and there, but a lot
of times with addicts is they seek it out as
a way to cope with pain. That's why typically you know,
when you see an addict, they have like a typically
a dual diagnosis right where they have they're an addict,
but they also have depression, anxiety, bipolar, huge amounts of
(18:12):
trauma PTSD, like these things coexist so frequently that it's
not people don't quite understand with addicts that these are
people who are really really hurting and they're not being
resistant to be mean or to be difficult. They genuinely
(18:35):
that's their way of handling things, and most of it
comes from huge, huge amounts of pain and really not
knowing where to place it.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Do you or you've been very open online about getting
diagnosed with bipolar, do you remember kind of what the
process of that was. Were you diagnosed differently before you
got the bipolar diagnosis, Because I know that that can
often manifest in ways that might mimic other mental illnesses.
(19:07):
What was your process of getting that diagnosis, and then
how did it feel when you did get that diagnosis.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I didn't get that diagnosis until I was twenty six,
twenty seven, but I can absolutely pinpoint when it really
started and I was twenty two, so I got it
much later. And I never got misdiagnosed for anything that
was never even on my radar. I didn't even think
about that. So getting diagnosed was I mean, it was
(19:38):
a difficult reality, but also a big relief in a
way because it made so much sense, Like it made
me understand that I wasn't like a crazy person. I
had something that was impacting me that explained why I
was behaving the way I was, because it was so confusing,
you know, when I would come out of these episodes,
(20:00):
I like that, like that wasn't me. I don't know
how that happened. So there was a lot of relief
that came with it because I could treat it. It
was treatable and I could help myself, and that took
such a whet off of me.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yeah, I fully understand that.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
I felt like I felt similar when I got the
ADHD diagnosis of going, oh my gosh, all of these
things that I thought was just like wrong with who
I am. It's just an illness, like my inability to
reach out and remember that people exist if they're not
in my everyday world or forgetting everything and never finishing
(20:40):
tasks like I was like, oh my gosh, this makes
so much sense. And obviously you went through so much
in your early years and then your teenage years, and
then you got married, and then you had a kid,
and then you imploded your whole life, and you did
so on the internet so that everyone could see it.
(21:03):
Can you tell the people that are listening that maybe
have not heard the story before or maybe haven't seen
it on social media. You get married, you have a kid,
what happens?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
You know? I did the I did the marriage thing,
I did the kid thing, and it took me a
while to realize that I wasn't happy, and I was
very blind to that for a long time. You know,
I developed post farm depressions soon after I had my son,
so that I'm sure contributed to on how unhappy I was.
(21:41):
But I remember I almost nightly had to go on
drives for hours at a time. I would drive by myself,
really late at night, and it was the only way
I could prevent panic attacks. I was so tired of suffering.
I was so tired of suff that I stopped it
in the most drastic way I possibly could, which essentially
(22:07):
was asking for a divorce. I moved back into my
parents with my son. I came out to everyone of
the same day because I kind of had to. I
quit my job. I had nothing, I'd have a cent
to my name. I just left and that, even though
(22:28):
I had nothing and there was so much loss with that,
at least I was alive, Like that was my win.
At least I'm alive and the most terrifying thing I've
done and the most painful thing I've done, but looking
back into hindsight, like I would have a hundred percent
do it all over again.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
There's a story that has gone so viral online every
time that you've you've told it, and I think it's
so impactful because it resonates with so many people. And
you obviously you were in this process of like you
said you were going to these intersections you I mean,
you just so blatantly said that it was either imploded
(23:13):
your life or you were going to die, which is
such a massive, massive statement.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And I think is just shows how much pain you
were in.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
This, this viral story that you've told for maybe people
who haven't heard it before.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Was this something that happened before you?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Basically, I keep saying imploded your life because that's the
phrase that you've seen online.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Before you before you did that or was it after.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
I So the incident with the paramedic, that the big viral,
long more time story that happened while I was still
with my ex.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Can you tell us the story, what happened, what led
up to it, And I guess the story up to
the words that ultimately changed and saved your life.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I was in the depths of my postpartum depression and
that actually amplified my bipolar disorder. So those were really
big things that were happening at the same time, aside
from already being very miserable in my life. I you know,
(24:30):
I had been passively suicidal at that point for like
over a year, and no one noticed. I don't know
how no one noticed, and I tried very hard to
make it noticeable, to do anything I could to ask
for help without explicitly being like I want to die,
(24:52):
because those are very hard words to verbalize. So I
did my best when I went to my last therapy session,
and I don't think I could have been more clear
about where I was at and was not heard, and
that I went into that session knowing like this is
my last effort, this is the last time I'm going
(25:15):
to try, and after that, I'm I can't do it.
He let me leave, he let me walk, and I
was so defeated, and I was like, no one sees me,
No one sees me. So I drove home, and halfway
through my drive, I started hyperventilating very quickly and to
(25:39):
the point where I just wasn't it wasn't safe for
me to drive. And as I'm trying to find a
place to pull over and like hyperventilating, it's hard for
me to see. I'm having this full, full blown panic attack.
And I drive over this inner pass and I see
this huge bridge, and I pulled over. I pulled over
(26:01):
at the nearest parking lot, and I think I sat
there for a good like five minutes, just panicking, staring
at the wall. And the weirdest thing I randomly looked
up into my rear view mirror and my son's car
seat in the back, which was empty because with my mom.
(26:22):
I feel like I always have to clarify that. But
I saw his car seat and I was like, fuck,
like I so badly don't want to be here, but
I have a kid, and in like thirty seconds of courage,
I super fast picked up my phone. I mean it
(26:42):
helps that I was a little bit in like a
blackout phase with my panic attack, that I was not
thinking clearly, but I just picked up my phone and
I dialed nine one one, and I I struggled to
remember what I said. I essentially it was like, you
have to come here now, please send someone out, and
they did. They came very quickly, which I'm grateful for. Now.
(27:05):
By the time they got there, I was still panicking.
They helped me get out of my car, they sat
me down on the curb, and I'm sobbing. I'm having
a hard time breathing. At this point, they're just taking
care of me physically. They're getting my breathing under control,
They're getting my blood pressure under control, they're getting my
shaking under control. And eventually, when I kind of came
(27:30):
out of that, we were able to have a little
bit more of a conversation and I came down from
that panic attack, and I remember being like, I can't,
I can't do this, and I think I just repeated that,
I don't even know how many times over and over again.
I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't
(27:50):
do this anymore. And I remember the paramedic was like
level with me at this point. He was like squatting
down and made very direct eye contact with me. And
that's where this viral line came from. Was he looked
at me and he said, one more time, Let's just
try one more time. And that was the first time
(28:16):
I felt seen in over a year. That was the
first moment that someone saw me and broke it down
into a piece that felt manageable, because the pain and
feelings are so big that you don't know what to
do with it, and it's really hard to process and regulate.
But he broke it down for me in such a
(28:37):
simple way and saw me in such a simple way
that I became willing enough to go with them and
help myself. And I think that if he didn't say that,
I don't know that I would have come with them.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
I just it makes me emotional every single time that
I hear it.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
For multiple reasons.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
I think seeing you know, the photos and the videos
of you and your son now and going, oh my gosh,
this kid still has you here because of that thirty
seconds of courage, that thirty seconds where you pecked up
a phone and you asked for help, This one moment
that meant that this kid still has you here. And
(29:30):
when I get to see the incredible things that you
do now and the life that you get to live,
and the statement that I feel like both of us
often say of like you haven't met everyone who's gonna
love you yet, Like Cameron wasn't in your life yet,
and you had no idea that there would come a
time where you would know that kind of love where
(29:53):
you would know that life can be so shit at
no matter what it is that you're facing, that there's
just always hope. And I think the courage that you
had to share that story is massive and it's one
that has just helped millions of people. And I still
(30:15):
to this day keep seeing, you know, videos of people
who've got the tattoos of it done, and like the
statement is really stuck with people. Why Why do you
think that one sentence of let's just try one more
time has resonated with millions of people around the world.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
I think it comes down to that aspect of taking
it like in such small pieces, because again, like when
you're in a place where you don't want to exist,
where you don't want to be here anymore, you're dealing
with a pain that is huge, that is not manageable,
(30:53):
and that doesn't feel tolerable, and it's really hard to
know what to do with that, Like what do you
do when you feel like you don't want to be
here anymore and you don't want to try, and you
don't want to help yourself, you know, Like it's people
don't know what to do with that, and that's so
valid because it's such a big and hard thing to manage.
(31:13):
But that phrase made it possible for me to feel
like I could manage one single moment and it wasn't
all of it. I didn't need to fix the whole thing,
but I could maybe hang in for one day, like
maybe I can hang in there for the rest of
the day. And I think that's really helpful for a
(31:35):
lot of people to hear, because again, it is so big,
but we can condense it, we can condense it, and
we can start with one day, like let's focus on today.
That's it. We're not worrying about the future. We're not
worrying about the past. We're going to do today and
then we'll figure out tomorrow when we get there. And
I think that perspective of making it super small and
(31:59):
tangible when things are huge, it is kind of you know,
one of the only ways for people with that much
pain to feel like they can hang on is one day,
one time, one moment, one second, one hour at a time,
(32:19):
however small. You need to break it down.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
If you were standing outside that car, if you could
say anything to yourself, what would you say.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
That's such an emotional question.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Jazz, I'm sorry, I'm gonna make myself emotional with it,
but I literally just physically picturing it of like that
intensive crisis that you're feeling that in that moment, this
is never going to change, and you all these years
later just being the third person standing outside watching this happen.
(32:56):
Because there are people right now right that are in
that space.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
What are you saying to yourself as you're sitting in
that car.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
I think a couple things, you know, One it's not
worth it. It's not worth it, and two that it's
not always going to be like this. It's not always
going to be like this. And at the time, it
felt like the end of the world and I couldn't
see past that. I was not able to see past that.
(33:26):
But if I was able to understand that it wasn't
always going to be like this, I might have been
a little more inclined to help myself because I didn't
believe it would get better in any way. So if
I could really sit down and look at myself and
just be like, this isn't worth it. It's not always
(33:48):
going to feel this way, It's not always going to
be this way, and you have to stick around to
see that through. Otherwise you're taking away that opportunity from yourself.
And that wasn't a thought that I, I think that was
even able to create for myself at that time.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
I feel that so deeply.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I think when you've been in that space of literally
life and death and believing that there's no possible way
out to I feel like to then even just make
it to the next birthday is so wild And I
feel like, I don't know if it's the same for you.
But even throughout my teenage years, like never believing that
I would make it to my twenties and then suddenly
(34:30):
it's like, oh, I have to like adult now, and
I don't know how to do that because I didn't
think I was going to be here and I haven't
planned for that. But the thing that I always say
is that like, as long as you're still breathing, there's
still hope for change. And I think that just rains
so true through both of our stories and through you
in that moment and even all throughout your childhood and
(34:51):
your teenage years, Like I just want to reach through
the screen and just hug little Anna who I feel
like even you're going through like the schooling system and
you're realizing these behaviors that are developing. I remember one
of the most powerful things that my therapist ever said
was jazz, the behaviors make sense, Like you did the
(35:12):
best that you could given the situation.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
At the time.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
And I think for so long there was so much
self hatred of like and being so angry at myself
for these behaviors and the way that I would lash
out and the things that I would do, and being
like why are you doing this jazz? Like you're so stupid,
and then being like, oh, these things came from somewhere
like this little kid who was just trying to protect themselves,
(35:36):
who was just trying to feel loved in a world
that is so chaotic around them. And so, I mean,
I'm just so profoundly proud of you, and I'm so
thankful that the world has you hear and that you've
been willing to just share your story and share your
(35:57):
voice because there are so many people that are struggling
that feel the same way, that feel misunderstood, that feel misrepresented,
and to just know that there is so much hope
is just.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
And I'm so glad that you made the decision to
share this online like it's I know it's not an
easy thing, and I know that you've been met with
a lot of hate, just purely from when you came
out and even now that you're engaged, and I see
it all and I just want to bloody reach through
the screen sometimes and.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Just brush someone.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
When I see these comments about the bravery you've had
is just incredible and I will never forget. Just to
kind of slightly transition that at I think we were
at Universal Studios, one of the bloody theme parks that
we went to and you decided to film a video
and it was one of the videos that was like,
(37:00):
was it from the one of the like we don't
talk about Bruno songs, not that specific song, but whatever
the secret one was. And you turned to me and
you told me something that the world didn't know yet.
And my reaction in that video is my raw and
real reaction, and I am so incredibly glad that it
was captured because it was around the moment that you
(37:22):
met Cameron, something that would have never happened, a person
you would have never met had your story ended that day.
And I just need you to talk us through, talk
the people through what happened?
Speaker 1 (37:39):
How did you meet?
Speaker 2 (37:40):
What?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Just tell us tell.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Us the story, and I will tell us the story.
I will talk about the story forever. It's my favorite.
I think, you know, to first touch on the hen
around coming out. I think that comes from just so
many miscons conceptions about gender sexuality. And in that video,
(38:04):
I even told you like that was me telling you
how things were evolving for me. And as I did that,
you know, I was dating here and there, but nothing
was sticking. I was really really having a part time
connecting and I thought something was wrong. With me. I
remember it was two weeks before I went on my
(38:26):
first date with Cameron that I remember talking to my
therapist and I was like, maybe it's just like not
meant for me, Like maybe I'm not capable of love
because I've tried so hard and it doesn't work, Like
maybe it's just not for me. And it was around
that time that Cameron and I met up in person.
So we met on a dating app, and at the
(38:50):
time him and I were both very we were not
seeking anything serious. We were both very overcoming at that time,
but we got along really well over our messages via
text and we're like, oh, why not, Like let's just
meet up, Like what's it gonna hurt? And Cameron and
(39:13):
I will talk about it this day that we both
can clearly identify that after that date. And it's so
funny because he called all of his friends after that
date and I was talking to my friends after that date,
and we were both like, I don't know what's happening,
but I feel like this is it. And that's crazy
for me to say. It was crazy for him to
(39:33):
say because all our friends knew we were so avoidant
and so hyper independent. So we both left shocked, and
it was so different, and I never ever believed in that,
Like I was one hundred percent of those people who
were like, people are exaggerating love, like no one actually
loves someone that much. That's not real. This fairy tale
(39:57):
loves stuff like love at first sight, and that's real.
Like fully fully believed that. And then in that moment,
I feel like everything I knew about love and connection
with another human just he threw that right up the
windows so quickly, and that said so much. That said
(40:20):
so much.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
I remember you first telling me about him, and even me,
I was just amazed at the way that you were
talking because I was like, I know you, and I
know you very well, and you don't talk about people
like this, like this is not something that you do.
And seeing like that, even just the cute freaking videos
that you guys make online, and just constantly being like, oh,
(40:45):
like if your story had ended that day, camera would
still just be walking around the avoidant type, not like
you literally haven't met everyone who's gonna love.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
You yet and you are living proof of that.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
And then you have this man who then asks your
friends of he can propose to you. And I just
need to point this out one. I was so close
to booking flights to coming over for the surprise engagement.
However it was going to be forty hours of travel
each way, so like eighty hours all up, and I
was like, I really do love you Anna, but I
will come over for the wedding, And so I got
(41:22):
face timed into it and he proposed off camera. You
guys were just like you just moved out of frame.
And so when you came around and you had I
was like, did you say yes?
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Like I didn't see it. I didn't see what.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Happened, but obviously you did and you got engaged and
you get to live a moment and a I guess
a section of your life that you would have never
thought possible. And I really love seeing the kind of
stuff that you post around. How understanding and helpful Cameraon
(41:57):
has been through your mental health journey, because it's not
just something that immediately goes away or like is there
one day and has gone the next, Like, it's this
ever evolving process and journey. And to have someone that
understands that and is willing to sit with you through that.
How did you first like explain to Cameron what had
(42:19):
gone on and what your mental health was and kind
of the stuff.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
That you struggle with. Was that a hard conversation to have?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Typically it is, but like again, with him, everything was
so different. And I don't know if it was because
I wasn't looking for anything serious. I felt comfortable to
just like throw everything out on the table. I told
him I had bipolar two via text before we got together,
and I think a lot of that was because I
wanted to show all my cards so that if you're
(42:51):
going to run, like, do it early, because I don't
want to get attached. But he never thought anything like
he was just like, okay, cool, I need ADHD and
we're just like cool, okay, so we both have these diagnoses. Great,
like no judgment, and even beyond that, he followed up
(43:12):
with questions. He was like, what does this look like?
How do people support you? Like? What do you need
in these moments? Like how can I recognize these moments?
And just worked so hard to understand me instead of
judging me and making me feel bad for showing up
(43:33):
with these symptoms that I just I can't control. It
was such a different approach that I felt incredibly safe
and comfortable to share and disclose. Basically, anything like there
was not a moment that it was hard.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
That is phenomenal and such a testament to his character
and also just your real lifeationship that you felt like
you were able to do that. And I'm really interested
for maybe people who have never experienced living with bipolar.
I think that again, it's another thing that has a
lot of stigma that's been attached to it from society
(44:13):
that people like know what it is, but they don't
actually understand. Can you explain from the lived experience kind
of perspective what it is like living with bipolar.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
I think people hear bipolar and they think of I
think a lot of the extremes that you see in movies.
And that's what I thought too, And that's why I thought.
I never considered that I had it, because I was like,
I'm not doing like that crazy stuff, like I'm not
jumping off of like roofs and like hallucinating, you know,
like that's how the media portrayed it. So that never
(44:51):
crossed my mind. But so there's bipolar one and there's
bipolar two, and they look different, and I have bipolar two.
So for me, I would and this is unmedicated, because
medicated me is a completely different version. So if I
was not medicated, it would look like a three month
(45:13):
stint of deep, deep depression. Like I'm talking, I can't
get out of bed, I can't take care of myself.
The suicidal thoughts are very loud. I'm hopeless. I could
not function as a human being. I could not function.
And then you wake up one day and a switch
(45:34):
flips and you turn into this like productive, confident, happy
version of yourself that is really like confusing, but with
like bipolar two. So it's it's called hypomania with bipolar two,
which is a less extreme than mania that comes with
(45:57):
bipolar one. So for me, I'm crazy productive, I don't
really sleep. I'm I remember like rearranging my furniture at
three am for like three hours for what I don't know,
I just did. And you know, there are there is
(46:20):
some aspects of reckless behavior, Like there were times where
I about like a thousand dollars appliance. I didn't need
to do that, like that was just reckless spending. Or
I just like glorified confidence where I'm like I'm the best,
like but really over the top. So it's such it's
like two opposite extremes and you bounce back and forth,
(46:44):
and if you don't know what it is, it can
be very exhausting. It can be very very confusing, not
only for you, but from the people on the outside
who are watching it, very confusing, especially if you can't
even communicate what's happening because you don't know.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Yeah, I thank you for giving that explanation.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
I think so many people just even the bloody phrase
of just like oh, just snap out of it, or
like just can't comprehend or think of just being lazy
when you can't get out of bed, and it's just
it's just not the case. And so this is why
stories like this is so important and why I'm so
thankful that we have such a quite large community of
(47:25):
people that are sharing their stories, and that we get
to be a part of that, and we get to
see other people kind of coming through and sharing these
stories of hope. And I would really love to know
kind of obviously you had this not just a moment.
There was a lot of times that were really really
really hard for you. But to go from the person
(47:49):
who was thirty seconds away from not being here to
where you are now, can you identify some like k
things that helped you get from A to B because
obviously I think people can sometimes hear these stories and
be like, this is where I am now and relate
to that, but then they see you now and they're like,
(48:11):
but how how did you do it? What are some
key things that helps you get from fromvia to where
you are now?
Speaker 2 (48:20):
I think a lot of different things, and it was
a combination of things. And it also just wasn't like
a complete upward trajectory, you know, like it was an
incredibly bumpy road, and there were so many moments after
that that I would go through a period of time
(48:40):
where I didn't want to be here. That was not
the last time, but learn like every time I went
through it, though, I learned to handle it better. And
being really consistent with therapy, being really consistent with asking
for help and priority myself was really really important, and
(49:03):
also not beating myself up if I hit a low again,
because I used to hit a low and I'd be like, cool,
we're doing this again, Like I'm not going to try
because I already know what's going to happen. I'm going
to end up back in the hospital. And it's a
repeating cycle that's going to happen over and over and
over and over again. And I think that was some
of my helplessness kind of coming in. So there was
(49:27):
the therapy, the medication, the support, but then there was
a really really big shift in my mindset that had
to happen and in a mindset where I felt like
I could take control. And I think that was really
a moment where I took my power back. That was
essential for me to help myself. Was feeling capable of
(49:50):
helping myself and getting there takes practice. You know, you
don't get there overnight. You don't have these distortions and
then suddenly change it, you know, like that's not how
of affirmations work. It took a lot of practice and
consistency and repetition to really work on myself and prove
to myself that I could do these things, that I
(50:12):
had control, that I could take my power back, that
I could overcome these really hard things, even if the
road was really bumpy. You just you can't give up
when shit hits the fan, because it's life, and shit
is always going to hit the fan. It's always going
(50:32):
to happen. Things aren't going to work out the way
you want. All the time, and I had to learn
how to navigate that, I had to reteach myself how
to be regulated, how to cope, and I had a
lot of different resources that I used for that, but
I really had to learn. I had to teach myself
because I didn't know how to do it, and that
(50:55):
took a lot of time. It did not happen in
a year or two years. I'm still learning every day.
You know, like I'm not a perfect person. I still
have moments where things slip up and I have to
pick myself up again. And I think it's always going
to be that way, because that's just the human experience.
(51:17):
But when you can shift your mindset into a way
of like, Okay, this is really hard right now, but
I know I'm going to be okay, and I know
it's not always going to be like this, and I
know I'm capable of helping myself. I don't think i'd
be able to be where I am now if I
wasn't able to shift my perspective in what I was
(51:39):
capable of doing for myself.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
I think that's so incredibly important, and I know that
there was. It was kind of a similar thing for
me where I began to realize that so much of
my healing was going to lay in my own decisions,
the moments where I would want to run and pulsively
go and do something and just go right now in
(52:03):
this moment where this impulses come, like I have the
choice for that to not be the reality, Like same
as you're like, you know the process, you're gonna bet
up in hospital again, Like you have a choice right now,
And not saying that it's easy, like at all, but
all of those little choices, the choices to pick up
the phone and message someone, the choice to not put
(52:25):
on sad music and make self feel worse and let
it dwell, but like actively try to do something else.
And there is times where it just comes in waves
and it's harder to do those things. But this is
why I'm always so big when people come up to
me and they say, like, Jazz, you saved my life,
and I'm like, no, Like I didn't do that. All
I did was go, hey, there's another way. You are
(52:47):
the one that made these decisions. You're the one that
chose to fight. And I think that's so empowering for
people to know that, like these other external things can
be a part of your healing can help you, and
songs and artists and all these things are a part
of it.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
But at the end of the day, you are the
one that makes those decisions.
Speaker 3 (53:08):
And I'm so glad that you made those decisions over
and over and over again, because it means that I
get my friend here, it means that the world gets you.
It means that your son gets you, and Cameron does
and I'm just so incredibly grateful that you are here
with us and that you are in a position where
(53:30):
you are sharing your story. And you know, this podcast
is called Hope is Real, and I think your life
is just so evident of that, and I would love
to know, just kind of as a final question, what
does the word hope mean to you?
Speaker 2 (53:49):
I think hope to me means the possibility for change,
possibility for recovery, possibility for better experiences, a better life,
possibility for things to get better, for you to get better,
(54:10):
you know, like it's not black and white, like hope
is always there. And I think hope is kind of
like this space that if you choose to step into it,
you give yourself the opportunity to have more possibility, right,
(54:30):
Because I also think having hope is a mindset and
a choice to believe that you can have that. You know,
It's like similar to how can you change your perspective?
You know, if you can believe for just a moment
that there's hope, you are leaving the door open essentially
(54:52):
or good things to come and allowing for good things
to come.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
Gosh, I just I love you.
Speaker 3 (55:00):
I am so grateful to have you in my life
and that you've been willing and we could finally make
our calendars and schedules work.
Speaker 1 (55:06):
To come on.
Speaker 3 (55:07):
I know that you're very busy and you're doing a
million things, and you've got a kid and you go,
you just you've got so much going on in your world,
and so for you to take the time to come
and to chat on here and to be able to
inspire the people that are listening to know that one
thing right that no matter what it is that you're facing,
that hope is real. So thank you for fighting, thank
(55:27):
you for choosing to stay, thank you for choosing to
share your story, and for being.
Speaker 1 (55:33):
Such a cool friend. And I'm so excited for you
to get married.
Speaker 3 (55:38):
And I don't even care if you're like eloping, I
will be there, Okay. So you just tell me when where.
If it's a wedding, if it's a loping, I don't care.
If it's forty hours away, I will be there because
I am so excited.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
But where where can people find you? Where can people
follow you?
Speaker 3 (55:51):
Not physically find your house, obviously, but where can people
find anna?
Speaker 1 (55:56):
Yell?
Speaker 2 (55:57):
We just hand out my address for you, guys.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
Address, my bank account, details.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
My social Security number. No, I'm primarily on TikTok and Instagram.
That's really where I'm the most active. But I do
like to work more intimately with people, So I do
also do when I want to work with people within
the coaching business that I have as well.
Speaker 3 (56:21):
So are you taking new clients for that? Or no,
what are you taking new clients for that?
Speaker 1 (56:26):
At the moment.
Speaker 2 (56:28):
Yeah, it's kind of like a rolling thing, like as
people graduate from the program or as people feel like
they don't need more, they've got all they can out
of it and they move on, then I'll take in
a couple more people. So it's always kind of going.
Speaker 3 (56:45):
How can people get in touch about that if that's
something that might be interested in.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
So all of my socials have a link on it,
which gives you all the resources to either things I'm
doing or other resources. But one of those links will
basically be a place where you can give me your name,
your email, what you're struggling with, and so I can
see those and go through and I can respond and offer.
(57:11):
You know, hey, do you want to work together? Is
it's still something you want to pursue because.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
I have space amazing?
Speaker 3 (57:17):
Well, Hey, thank you so much again for taking the
time to come on this podcast. It really means a
lot and I cannot wait to see you again, hopefully soon.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
I know, thank you so much for having me. I
need you to come back to the States.
Speaker 1 (57:30):
Okay, I'll get on a plane right now. I'll just
drive to the airport.
Speaker 2 (57:33):
I mean you should probably just come here for Horror Nights.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
I mean, yeah, we need to. We need to read
you horr nights. Yeah, every year. We've done it since
we first met, so we're going to have to.
Speaker 2 (57:45):
I feel like if we if we break that chain now,
we can't. It would have to be happens.
Speaker 3 (57:52):
Yeah, yeah, okay, Well I will obviously be there for
horror Nights, but otherwise, have a fantastic Christy your day night.
I don't know what time it is where you are
right now. But again, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (58:04):
Of course, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
Well do you have it, guys, thank you so much
for staying and for listening to this episode. And like
I've said at the beginning, and I always say, if
anything in this episode that's been talked about has brought
anything up for you, you feel like you need to
talk to someone, then please remember and know that the
bravest thing that you can do right now is to
talk to someone, is to ask for help, whether that's
(58:28):
from a friend, a family member, or if you don't
know who to talk to, then if you live in
Altaiola here you can call or text one seven three
seven at any time to talk to a train counselor,
or if you live overseas, go to dub dub dub
dot the Voices of Hope dot org for a list
of international helplines. Remember that no matter what it is
that you're facing, no matter what it is that you're
(58:49):
going through, that in all things, hope is real and
change is possible. I'll see you guys next week
The ziti In podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
It took me a while to realize that I wasn't happy,
and I was very blind to that. He looked at
me and he said, one more time. Let's just try
one more time. It's not always going to be this way,
and you have to stick around to see that through.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Hey, guys, welcome back to another episode of Hope Is Real,
the podcast. The podcast designed to help you feel a
little less alone, a bit more inspired, and of course
a lot more hopeful.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
Now, today's guest is one that.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
I know that I always say this that I'm very
excited about it, but it's because it's very true, and
I'm very excited about every single guest, but this one.
This person is one of my closest friends. It's someone
that I met on TikTok. If you're on TikTok, you've
probably seen this person before. Anna Muller. Anna's story went
viral last year. I think it was a story of
(00:55):
a paramedic that saved Anna's life when they were struggling
at their worst kind of point, at the point of
not wanting to be here anymore. And it tells the
crazy story that led up to that moment and everything
that has happened since Anna went through a divorce, got
diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and then decided to share all
(01:16):
of these struggles publicly in order to try and help people.
And Anna, like I said, is one of one of
my best friends at someone that I met on on
social media, which I know don't talk to strangers on
social media, but this is one that worked out. We've
been able to travel together. We have a thing of
going to horror nights on Halloween. I don't know why,
(01:37):
I'm terrified at all times, but we do it and
we're going again this year, of course. But this episode
is one that Anna is so raw and is so
real about the struggles that they faced, everything that they
went through, and also just the reality of what it
is to live with mental illness, to live in a
survival mechanism, to live kind of constantly on edge. But
(02:02):
the bravery that Anna has shown the ability to tell
the story in such a beautiful and meaningful way. And
I will, of course, as always, put a trigger warning
on this episode. Anna does talk about suicide attempts by
Paula and all of that kind of thing, So please,
as always, if you need to take a break, come
back to it, call it text to help line, a friend,
(02:24):
a family member. You are not in this alone, but
Anna's story is coming up right after this.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
Anna, Welcome to Hope it thro all the podcast. Oh
my goodness, it has been a minute.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
We've been trying to get you on since season one
and then season two, and now here we are season three, and.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
You'll meet it only two seasons later. But we meet it, will.
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I think our calendars just consistently we're clashing.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
But I know they were just like we're not working together.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
But I'm glad that this is happening now because we
can talk about before I get into literally anything else
in this episode.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Major news. You have a ring on your finger. You
are engaged. Yeah, yeah, what the heck?
Speaker 3 (03:13):
I need to tell everybody because I think that Cameron
has set like a standard that everyone should be following,
to the point that he messaged me asking for permission,
like me, your friend on the other side of the world,
asking for permission and being like I assume you're okay
with this, like if I propose to Anna, and I'm like, yes, yes.
(03:39):
It was the hardest secret I've had to keep, Like
I just, oh my goodness. But we will talk about
that soon because I've got.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
So many questions and there's so many stories that will
go into it.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
But first of all, let's just literally start all the
way back to where we met.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Social media it's a big thing.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
And I remember starting to see you on my TikTok
and being like this person's cool and following you. But
you had seen girl on the bridge before social media, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Before I was even online, Like I was not doing
anything online.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
That's wild. And then you join TikTok. What made you
join TikTok?
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Not the way most people would think. I like, when
I joined, I was going through it. I was in
a very rough space. I think it was shortly after
I came out of the hospital, actually, and I was
so frustrated with like the mental health, like how that
was portrayed in media, which like not really at all.
So I literally just set up my phone and recorded
(04:48):
during my mental breakdowns and just talked to my camera
and but we're like, wait, this is me. I'm also
having a breakdown over this, like I'm not alone, And
so it started really crazy like that, but then turn
into a whole different thing.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
And I'm so grateful that you did because it meant
that we got to meet. I can't remember who slid
into whose dms, but there was some form of DM
sliding that happened.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I don't remember either.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
I just I remember the first time we met was
in La. Was it yes?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
La? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (05:24):
It was La.
Speaker 3 (05:25):
It was La La. And then we went to New
York and then we did LA again. We have the
tendency to be going to horror nights, which is our
favorite thing to do.
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I love horror nights.
Speaker 3 (05:37):
There's much footage of both of us just losing it
and you nearly breaking my hand, and some of the
horror houses.
Speaker 2 (05:44):
And knocking us to the floor.
Speaker 1 (05:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Well, because we're small as well, and so these massive
guys with the chainsaws were just like bloody chase us
around all the time and leave everyone else alone, just
be following us through. It was terrifying, and yet we
just kept going back because it was.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Cis feel good scary said something about us. I.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Yeah, but it's not think there about that too much.
You can't overthink that.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Hey.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
I obviously your story is has been widely known online.
You've been very very open about it and the things
that you've been through. But I would love to kind
of go right back to the start, what was your childhood?
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Like, Oh, that's a question, And I say that because
there's so much duality in it. I had so many
great moments in my very young childhood that I remember
and I loved, I'm very grateful for, but I had
so many painful ones, and unfortunately those ones to go
out a lot more and a lot of us. I
(06:46):
actually didn't realize until I went to therapy and processed
everything that happened in my childhood, and I was like, okay,
so everything adds up. You know. I was a kid
who had normal kid behaviors. I was a kid. The
issue was it was mishandled and I was failed in
a lot of ways. And I think at six I
(07:10):
saw my first psychiatrists really just from behavioral issues. But
again they were more behavioral issues because I wasn't being helped.
I was very misunderstood and I wasn't being seen. And
I remember I actually recently found those files from my
psychiatrist when I was six, never got to read them
(07:31):
before until now, and I remember reading them and the
psychiatrist describing me at that time, and he said, you know,
he described me as anxious, which I knew, but he
also said I had learned helplessness, which shook me because
I don't know how a six year old has learned helplessness.
(07:56):
And I really had to like look into that, and basically,
it's like, you go into so many difficult, stressful events
where you don't have control and you don't have a
voice and you can't help yourself, where it's being taken
away from you that you under you start to understand
that it's not worth trying, like there's no point in trying,
(08:18):
so you just stop.
Speaker 1 (08:20):
And that was in your files at six years old.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
Yeah, wow, yeah, that's that is not even something I
can comprehend that as a six year old. A professional
can sit you down and you are presenting so much
in a way that that is what they are seeing, right, this?
Speaker 2 (08:45):
What that?
Speaker 1 (08:46):
So what do you think you were? Kind of like
early signs.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
Were that there were behaviors, that things weren't quite okay.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
I really struggled academically, and that was noticed as soon
as I entered school, you know, first grade. I was
getting help academically, and that really wasn't because I wasn't
trying or not understand these concepts. I just learned outside
of the academic box, which is common for a lot
of people. I didn't learn the standard way, and I
(09:17):
really struggled to conform to that, and that's where help
was pushed onto me in a way that made it
was good intent, but it made me understand myself as
broken and something needed to be fixed. So things really
started going downhill, I would say third grade and then
just kind of I feel like intensified up until my
(09:41):
early twenties.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
Do you remember like a key moment when you realized, like,
I'm not I'm not normal and comparable you know what
even normal is? Where you realized that your brain was
working differently to your peers. Was it like a key
moment that stands out to you for that?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
I would say it was sometime closer to third grade
as well. I was being pulled out of the classrooms
a lot. I was seeing different kinds of therapists like
speech pathologists. I was seeing tutors. I was having people
come into the classroom to be there to support me.
I'm again I'm sure it was good, intense, but I
(10:27):
was seeing all these different services that were being given
to me, and I would made me feel so different
and that was really when it sunk into my brain,
I was like, I'm different, and not a positive way.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
What impact did that have on your teenage years?
Speaker 2 (10:44):
A huge one, A huge one, And I like get
so frustrated looking back because I was like, there were
so many things that could have been done differently to
prevent what happened after that, you know it that kind
of translated into bullying later on, and then trauma. It
(11:08):
was like a mesh of just really horrible events all
at the same time. I remember I was like thirteen,
so that was my first sexual assault at thirteen, and
that's when again I say it's bullying, but it's very
hard for me to describe it that way because sometimes
(11:30):
you think of bullying and you think of people just
saying mean things or making you feel bad, And for me,
it was, you know, people were coming to my home
and destroying it. We had the police at my home frequently.
I was getting death threats, I was getting suicide encouragements.
It was that really really messed me up, and I
(11:52):
was very very unwell. So as I was, I turned
into a teenage addict essentially, like I had so much,
so many distortions about myself and genuinely believed I was
a broken, horrible, horrible person who was not loved and I,
as a young teen, I couldn't tolerate it. I didn't
(12:15):
know what to do with that I had. I never
learned those coping skills or how to regulate that. So
drugs were the only thing that were there to make
me feel like, Okay, for a minute.
Speaker 1 (12:30):
How old were you when you first had your first substance?
Speaker 2 (12:33):
Thirteen? Wow?
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Thirteen years old.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
If you could talk to the people that were sending
you those death threats encouraging you to take your own
life now, at the age that you're at, if you
could face them head on, what would you say to them.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I'm not angry, I think that's the thing. I feel
bad that they were in a place that they were
able to be so cruel to someone else, right, because
you think of people who do cruel things to others
and are hateful, and those things were taught, you know,
(13:18):
like people don't just come out of the womb being mean.
I wasn't always that way. I was angry for a
long time, but that was also very toxic to me,
and I just I feel bad for them that they
were in a place where something happened to them that
they were there and that's kind of how that resulted
(13:40):
for them. But it took a lot of a lot
of therapy for me to get to a place where
I'm not angry anymore.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
The maturity in that is phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
I think, you know, I spend a lot of my
time with high school students, and the message that we
always put out is that usually bullies have a bigger
bully in their life and that's what makes them feel
like it's an okay or an appropriate behavior. And to
get to a place where, even though the impact it
had on you literally nearly cost you your life, alongside
(14:13):
a whole bunch of other things, to be in a
position of understanding that the common saying of hurt people
hurt people is something that's so different to just hear
the sentence and then to actually believe it and to
walk with that and to have that kind of forgiveness almost.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Is a completely different thing.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
And like I know that you know your teenage years
very kind of similar but very different as well to
mine of realizing that it was so different to what
a lot of people grew up with. And I used
to get so jealous of like other people just living
(14:52):
their best lives and like going on family holidays or
waking up and being happy and being like why can't
I have that? When you started using substances, did you
feel like that was like helping you escape what was
going on in your head?
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Very temporarily. It never lasted, if anything, I mean, alcohols
are depressent. It that one that one really spiraled me.
It was super temporary, and I immediately like bounced back
into my other mental spirals, you know, it just and
that translated to so many other mental health things where
(15:35):
you know, I was engaging in other behaviors like self
harm behaviors, and then I was just in the hospital often.
So like, yes, it took the edge off momentarily, but
it never lasted. It never lasted for long.
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Did that obviously?
Speaker 3 (15:57):
When you started at thirteen and then kind of went
through your teenage years, were you starting to try and
experiment with different kinds of drugs as you were going on?
Speaker 1 (16:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah, so it's like at thirteen I had my first drink,
But actually alcohol never ended up being something I had
an issue with, which is funny, especially now when I
say I'm sober, people associate sober with alcohol when really
what happened for me was I quickly went to things
that were harder because I that wasn't enough. So I
(16:29):
did that, and then I did start experimenting with really
anything I could get my hands on. But I did
have very specific like drugs of choice that I fell
into more so than others, and those kind of like
became my normal.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
What do you think you could say to people to help,
especially like family and friends of people who are addicts,
to understand how those behaviors and reliance on substance can form,
because I think that society has already kind of boxed
addicts into being one thing. But no one is born
(17:07):
and goes, I'm going to do this one day and
like that. It's just not that's not in the human nature, right,
Like that's something that has come from needing an escape
or needing to feel something else. Like what would you
say to people who do are in that kind of
more judgmental phase and don't yet understand how someone could
get to that point.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
Yeah, I think it's really important to know that no one,
like like you said, no one wakes up and it's
like I want to be an addict, you know, For
some people, it can start with experimenting with you know,
it does happen with kids who are in middle school,
high school. You know, drugs are around, drugs are prevalent.
(17:48):
Some kids try it here and there, but a lot
of times with addicts is they seek it out as
a way to cope with pain. That's why typically you know,
when you see an addict, they have like a typically
a dual diagnosis right where they have they're an addict,
but they also have depression, anxiety, bipolar, huge amounts of
(18:12):
trauma PTSD, like these things coexist so frequently that it's
not people don't quite understand with addicts that these are
people who are really really hurting and they're not being
resistant to be mean or to be difficult. They genuinely
(18:35):
that's their way of handling things, and most of it
comes from huge, huge amounts of pain and really not
knowing where to place it.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Do you or you've been very open online about getting
diagnosed with bipolar, do you remember kind of what the
process of that was. Were you diagnosed differently before you
got the bipolar diagnosis, Because I know that that can
often manifest in ways that might mimic other mental illnesses.
(19:07):
What was your process of getting that diagnosis, and then
how did it feel when you did get that diagnosis.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
I didn't get that diagnosis until I was twenty six,
twenty seven, but I can absolutely pinpoint when it really
started and I was twenty two, so I got it
much later. And I never got misdiagnosed for anything that
was never even on my radar. I didn't even think
about that. So getting diagnosed was I mean, it was
(19:38):
a difficult reality, but also a big relief in a
way because it made so much sense, Like it made
me understand that I wasn't like a crazy person. I
had something that was impacting me that explained why I
was behaving the way I was, because it was so confusing,
you know, when I would come out of these episodes,
(20:00):
I like that, like that wasn't me. I don't know
how that happened. So there was a lot of relief
that came with it because I could treat it. It
was treatable and I could help myself, and that took
such a whet off of me.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Yeah, I fully understand that.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
I felt like I felt similar when I got the
ADHD diagnosis of going, oh my gosh, all of these
things that I thought was just like wrong with who
I am. It's just an illness, like my inability to
reach out and remember that people exist if they're not
in my everyday world or forgetting everything and never finishing
(20:40):
tasks like I was like, oh my gosh, this makes
so much sense. And obviously you went through so much
in your early years and then your teenage years, and
then you got married, and then you had a kid,
and then you imploded your whole life, and you did
so on the internet so that everyone could see it.
(21:03):
Can you tell the people that are listening that maybe
have not heard the story before or maybe haven't seen
it on social media. You get married, you have a kid,
what happens?
Speaker 2 (21:17):
You know? I did the I did the marriage thing,
I did the kid thing, and it took me a
while to realize that I wasn't happy, and I was
very blind to that for a long time. You know,
I developed post farm depressions soon after I had my son,
so that I'm sure contributed to on how unhappy I was.
(21:41):
But I remember I almost nightly had to go on
drives for hours at a time. I would drive by myself,
really late at night, and it was the only way
I could prevent panic attacks. I was so tired of suffering.
I was so tired of suff that I stopped it
in the most drastic way I possibly could, which essentially
(22:07):
was asking for a divorce. I moved back into my
parents with my son. I came out to everyone of
the same day because I kind of had to. I
quit my job. I had nothing, I'd have a cent
to my name. I just left and that, even though
(22:28):
I had nothing and there was so much loss with that,
at least I was alive, Like that was my win.
At least I'm alive and the most terrifying thing I've
done and the most painful thing I've done, but looking
back into hindsight, like I would have a hundred percent
do it all over again.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
There's a story that has gone so viral online every
time that you've you've told it, and I think it's
so impactful because it resonates with so many people. And
you obviously you were in this process of like you
said you were going to these intersections you I mean,
you just so blatantly said that it was either imploded
(23:13):
your life or you were going to die, which is
such a massive, massive statement.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
And I think is just shows how much pain you
were in.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
This, this viral story that you've told for maybe people
who haven't heard it before.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Was this something that happened before you?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Basically, I keep saying imploded your life because that's the
phrase that you've seen online.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Before you before you did that or was it after.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
I So the incident with the paramedic, that the big viral,
long more time story that happened while I was still
with my ex.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
Can you tell us the story, what happened, what led
up to it, And I guess the story up to
the words that ultimately changed and saved your life.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
I was in the depths of my postpartum depression and
that actually amplified my bipolar disorder. So those were really
big things that were happening at the same time, aside
from already being very miserable in my life. I you know,
(24:30):
I had been passively suicidal at that point for like
over a year, and no one noticed. I don't know
how no one noticed, and I tried very hard to
make it noticeable, to do anything I could to ask
for help without explicitly being like I want to die,
(24:52):
because those are very hard words to verbalize. So I
did my best when I went to my last therapy session,
and I don't think I could have been more clear
about where I was at and was not heard, and
that I went into that session knowing like this is
my last effort, this is the last time I'm going
(25:15):
to try, and after that, I'm I can't do it.
He let me leave, he let me walk, and I
was so defeated, and I was like, no one sees me,
No one sees me. So I drove home, and halfway
through my drive, I started hyperventilating very quickly and to
(25:39):
the point where I just wasn't it wasn't safe for
me to drive. And as I'm trying to find a
place to pull over and like hyperventilating, it's hard for
me to see. I'm having this full, full blown panic attack.
And I drive over this inner pass and I see
this huge bridge, and I pulled over. I pulled over
(26:01):
at the nearest parking lot, and I think I sat
there for a good like five minutes, just panicking, staring
at the wall. And the weirdest thing I randomly looked
up into my rear view mirror and my son's car
seat in the back, which was empty because with my mom.
(26:22):
I feel like I always have to clarify that. But
I saw his car seat and I was like, fuck,
like I so badly don't want to be here, but
I have a kid, and in like thirty seconds of courage,
I super fast picked up my phone. I mean it
(26:42):
helps that I was a little bit in like a
blackout phase with my panic attack, that I was not
thinking clearly, but I just picked up my phone and
I dialed nine one one, and I I struggled to
remember what I said. I essentially it was like, you
have to come here now, please send someone out, and
they did. They came very quickly, which I'm grateful for. Now.
(27:05):
By the time they got there, I was still panicking.
They helped me get out of my car, they sat
me down on the curb, and I'm sobbing. I'm having
a hard time breathing. At this point, they're just taking
care of me physically. They're getting my breathing under control,
They're getting my blood pressure under control, they're getting my
shaking under control. And eventually, when I kind of came
(27:30):
out of that, we were able to have a little
bit more of a conversation and I came down from
that panic attack, and I remember being like, I can't,
I can't do this, and I think I just repeated that,
I don't even know how many times over and over again.
I can't do this, I can't do this, I can't
(27:50):
do this anymore. And I remember the paramedic was like
level with me at this point. He was like squatting
down and made very direct eye contact with me. And
that's where this viral line came from. Was he looked
at me and he said, one more time, Let's just
try one more time. And that was the first time
(28:16):
I felt seen in over a year. That was the
first moment that someone saw me and broke it down
into a piece that felt manageable, because the pain and
feelings are so big that you don't know what to
do with it, and it's really hard to process and regulate.
But he broke it down for me in such a
(28:37):
simple way and saw me in such a simple way
that I became willing enough to go with them and
help myself. And I think that if he didn't say that,
I don't know that I would have come with them.
Speaker 3 (28:59):
I just it makes me emotional every single time that
I hear it.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
For multiple reasons.
Speaker 3 (29:06):
I think seeing you know, the photos and the videos
of you and your son now and going, oh my gosh,
this kid still has you here because of that thirty
seconds of courage, that thirty seconds where you pecked up
a phone and you asked for help, This one moment
that meant that this kid still has you here. And
(29:30):
when I get to see the incredible things that you
do now and the life that you get to live,
and the statement that I feel like both of us
often say of like you haven't met everyone who's gonna
love you yet, Like Cameron wasn't in your life yet,
and you had no idea that there would come a
time where you would know that kind of love where
(29:53):
you would know that life can be so shit at
no matter what it is that you're facing, that there's
just always hope. And I think the courage that you
had to share that story is massive and it's one
that has just helped millions of people. And I still
(30:15):
to this day keep seeing, you know, videos of people
who've got the tattoos of it done, and like the
statement is really stuck with people. Why Why do you
think that one sentence of let's just try one more
time has resonated with millions of people around the world.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
I think it comes down to that aspect of taking
it like in such small pieces, because again, like when
you're in a place where you don't want to exist,
where you don't want to be here anymore, you're dealing
with a pain that is huge, that is not manageable,
(30:53):
and that doesn't feel tolerable, and it's really hard to
know what to do with that, Like what do you
do when you feel like you don't want to be
here anymore and you don't want to try, and you
don't want to help yourself, you know, Like it's people
don't know what to do with that, and that's so
valid because it's such a big and hard thing to manage.
(31:13):
But that phrase made it possible for me to feel
like I could manage one single moment and it wasn't
all of it. I didn't need to fix the whole thing,
but I could maybe hang in for one day, like
maybe I can hang in there for the rest of
the day. And I think that's really helpful for a
(31:35):
lot of people to hear, because again, it is so big,
but we can condense it, we can condense it, and
we can start with one day, like let's focus on today.
That's it. We're not worrying about the future. We're not
worrying about the past. We're going to do today and
then we'll figure out tomorrow when we get there. And
I think that perspective of making it super small and
(31:59):
tangible when things are huge, it is kind of you know,
one of the only ways for people with that much
pain to feel like they can hang on is one day,
one time, one moment, one second, one hour at a time,
(32:19):
however small. You need to break it down.
Speaker 3 (32:22):
If you were standing outside that car, if you could
say anything to yourself, what would you say.
Speaker 2 (32:32):
That's such an emotional question.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Jazz, I'm sorry, I'm gonna make myself emotional with it,
but I literally just physically picturing it of like that
intensive crisis that you're feeling that in that moment, this
is never going to change, and you all these years
later just being the third person standing outside watching this happen.
(32:56):
Because there are people right now right that are in
that space.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
What are you saying to yourself as you're sitting in
that car.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
I think a couple things, you know, One it's not
worth it. It's not worth it, and two that it's
not always going to be like this. It's not always
going to be like this. And at the time, it
felt like the end of the world and I couldn't
see past that. I was not able to see past that.
(33:26):
But if I was able to understand that it wasn't
always going to be like this, I might have been
a little more inclined to help myself because I didn't
believe it would get better in any way. So if
I could really sit down and look at myself and
just be like, this isn't worth it. It's not always
(33:48):
going to feel this way, It's not always going to
be this way, and you have to stick around to
see that through. Otherwise you're taking away that opportunity from yourself.
And that wasn't a thought that I, I think that was
even able to create for myself at that time.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
I feel that so deeply.
Speaker 3 (34:08):
I think when you've been in that space of literally
life and death and believing that there's no possible way
out to I feel like to then even just make
it to the next birthday is so wild And I
feel like, I don't know if it's the same for you.
But even throughout my teenage years, like never believing that
I would make it to my twenties and then suddenly
(34:30):
it's like, oh, I have to like adult now, and
I don't know how to do that because I didn't
think I was going to be here and I haven't
planned for that. But the thing that I always say
is that like, as long as you're still breathing, there's
still hope for change. And I think that just rains
so true through both of our stories and through you
in that moment and even all throughout your childhood and
(34:51):
your teenage years, Like I just want to reach through
the screen and just hug little Anna who I feel
like even you're going through like the schooling system and
you're realizing these behaviors that are developing. I remember one
of the most powerful things that my therapist ever said
was jazz, the behaviors make sense, Like you did the
(35:12):
best that you could given the situation.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
At the time.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
And I think for so long there was so much
self hatred of like and being so angry at myself
for these behaviors and the way that I would lash
out and the things that I would do, and being
like why are you doing this jazz? Like you're so stupid,
and then being like, oh, these things came from somewhere
like this little kid who was just trying to protect themselves,
(35:36):
who was just trying to feel loved in a world
that is so chaotic around them. And so, I mean,
I'm just so profoundly proud of you, and I'm so
thankful that the world has you hear and that you've
been willing to just share your story and share your
(35:57):
voice because there are so many people that are struggling
that feel the same way, that feel misunderstood, that feel misrepresented,
and to just know that there is so much hope
is just.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Phenomenal.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
And I'm so glad that you made the decision to
share this online like it's I know it's not an
easy thing, and I know that you've been met with
a lot of hate, just purely from when you came
out and even now that you're engaged, and I see
it all and I just want to bloody reach through
the screen sometimes and.
Speaker 1 (36:34):
Just brush someone.
Speaker 3 (36:36):
When I see these comments about the bravery you've had
is just incredible and I will never forget. Just to
kind of slightly transition that at I think we were
at Universal Studios, one of the bloody theme parks that
we went to and you decided to film a video
and it was one of the videos that was like,
(37:00):
was it from the one of the like we don't
talk about Bruno songs, not that specific song, but whatever
the secret one was. And you turned to me and
you told me something that the world didn't know yet.
And my reaction in that video is my raw and
real reaction, and I am so incredibly glad that it
was captured because it was around the moment that you
(37:22):
met Cameron, something that would have never happened, a person
you would have never met had your story ended that day.
And I just need you to talk us through, talk
the people through what happened?
Speaker 1 (37:39):
How did you meet?
Speaker 2 (37:40):
What?
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Just tell us tell.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Us the story, and I will tell us the story.
I will talk about the story forever. It's my favorite.
I think, you know, to first touch on the hen
around coming out. I think that comes from just so
many miscons conceptions about gender sexuality. And in that video,
(38:04):
I even told you like that was me telling you
how things were evolving for me. And as I did that,
you know, I was dating here and there, but nothing
was sticking. I was really really having a part time
connecting and I thought something was wrong. With me. I
remember it was two weeks before I went on my
(38:26):
first date with Cameron that I remember talking to my
therapist and I was like, maybe it's just like not
meant for me, Like maybe I'm not capable of love
because I've tried so hard and it doesn't work, Like
maybe it's just not for me. And it was around
that time that Cameron and I met up in person.
So we met on a dating app, and at the
(38:50):
time him and I were both very we were not
seeking anything serious. We were both very overcoming at that time,
but we got along really well over our messages via
text and we're like, oh, why not, Like let's just
meet up, Like what's it gonna hurt? And Cameron and
(39:13):
I will talk about it this day that we both
can clearly identify that after that date. And it's so
funny because he called all of his friends after that
date and I was talking to my friends after that date,
and we were both like, I don't know what's happening,
but I feel like this is it. And that's crazy
for me to say. It was crazy for him to
(39:33):
say because all our friends knew we were so avoidant
and so hyper independent. So we both left shocked, and
it was so different, and I never ever believed in that,
Like I was one hundred percent of those people who
were like, people are exaggerating love, like no one actually
loves someone that much. That's not real. This fairy tale
(39:57):
loves stuff like love at first sight, and that's real.
Like fully fully believed that. And then in that moment,
I feel like everything I knew about love and connection
with another human just he threw that right up the
windows so quickly, and that said so much. That said
(40:20):
so much.
Speaker 3 (40:22):
I remember you first telling me about him, and even me,
I was just amazed at the way that you were
talking because I was like, I know you, and I
know you very well, and you don't talk about people
like this, like this is not something that you do.
And seeing like that, even just the cute freaking videos
that you guys make online, and just constantly being like, oh,
(40:45):
like if your story had ended that day, camera would
still just be walking around the avoidant type, not like
you literally haven't met everyone who's gonna love.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
You yet and you are living proof of that.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
And then you have this man who then asks your
friends of he can propose to you. And I just
need to point this out one. I was so close
to booking flights to coming over for the surprise engagement.
However it was going to be forty hours of travel
each way, so like eighty hours all up, and I
was like, I really do love you Anna, but I
will come over for the wedding, And so I got
(41:22):
face timed into it and he proposed off camera. You
guys were just like you just moved out of frame.
And so when you came around and you had I
was like, did you say yes?
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Like I didn't see it. I didn't see what.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Happened, but obviously you did and you got engaged and
you get to live a moment and a I guess
a section of your life that you would have never
thought possible. And I really love seeing the kind of
stuff that you post around. How understanding and helpful Cameraon
(41:57):
has been through your mental health journey, because it's not
just something that immediately goes away or like is there
one day and has gone the next, Like, it's this
ever evolving process and journey. And to have someone that
understands that and is willing to sit with you through that.
How did you first like explain to Cameron what had
(42:19):
gone on and what your mental health was and kind
of the stuff.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
That you struggle with. Was that a hard conversation to have?
Speaker 2 (42:27):
Typically it is, but like again, with him, everything was
so different. And I don't know if it was because
I wasn't looking for anything serious. I felt comfortable to
just like throw everything out on the table. I told
him I had bipolar two via text before we got together,
and I think a lot of that was because I
wanted to show all my cards so that if you're
(42:51):
going to run, like, do it early, because I don't
want to get attached. But he never thought anything like
he was just like, okay, cool, I need ADHD and
we're just like cool, okay, so we both have these diagnoses. Great,
like no judgment, and even beyond that, he followed up
(43:12):
with questions. He was like, what does this look like?
How do people support you? Like? What do you need
in these moments? Like how can I recognize these moments?
And just worked so hard to understand me instead of
judging me and making me feel bad for showing up
(43:33):
with these symptoms that I just I can't control. It
was such a different approach that I felt incredibly safe
and comfortable to share and disclose. Basically, anything like there
was not a moment that it was hard.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
That is phenomenal and such a testament to his character
and also just your real lifeationship that you felt like
you were able to do that. And I'm really interested
for maybe people who have never experienced living with bipolar.
I think that again, it's another thing that has a
lot of stigma that's been attached to it from society
(44:13):
that people like know what it is, but they don't
actually understand. Can you explain from the lived experience kind
of perspective what it is like living with bipolar.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
I think people hear bipolar and they think of I
think a lot of the extremes that you see in movies.
And that's what I thought too, And that's why I thought.
I never considered that I had it, because I was like,
I'm not doing like that crazy stuff, like I'm not
jumping off of like roofs and like hallucinating, you know,
like that's how the media portrayed it. So that never
(44:51):
crossed my mind. But so there's bipolar one and there's
bipolar two, and they look different, and I have bipolar two.
So for me, I would and this is unmedicated, because
medicated me is a completely different version. So if I
was not medicated, it would look like a three month
(45:13):
stint of deep, deep depression. Like I'm talking, I can't
get out of bed, I can't take care of myself.
The suicidal thoughts are very loud. I'm hopeless. I could
not function as a human being. I could not function.
And then you wake up one day and a switch
(45:34):
flips and you turn into this like productive, confident, happy
version of yourself that is really like confusing, but with
like bipolar two. So it's it's called hypomania with bipolar two,
which is a less extreme than mania that comes with
(45:57):
bipolar one. So for me, I'm crazy productive, I don't
really sleep. I'm I remember like rearranging my furniture at
three am for like three hours for what I don't know,
I just did. And you know, there are there is
(46:20):
some aspects of reckless behavior, Like there were times where
I about like a thousand dollars appliance. I didn't need
to do that, like that was just reckless spending. Or
I just like glorified confidence where I'm like I'm the best,
like but really over the top. So it's such it's
like two opposite extremes and you bounce back and forth,
(46:44):
and if you don't know what it is, it can
be very exhausting. It can be very very confusing, not
only for you, but from the people on the outside
who are watching it, very confusing, especially if you can't
even communicate what's happening because you don't know.
Speaker 1 (47:00):
Yeah, I thank you for giving that explanation.
Speaker 3 (47:04):
I think so many people just even the bloody phrase
of just like oh, just snap out of it, or
like just can't comprehend or think of just being lazy
when you can't get out of bed, and it's just
it's just not the case. And so this is why
stories like this is so important and why I'm so
thankful that we have such a quite large community of
(47:25):
people that are sharing their stories, and that we get
to be a part of that, and we get to
see other people kind of coming through and sharing these
stories of hope. And I would really love to know
kind of obviously you had this not just a moment.
There was a lot of times that were really really
really hard for you. But to go from the person
(47:49):
who was thirty seconds away from not being here to
where you are now, can you identify some like k
things that helped you get from A to B because
obviously I think people can sometimes hear these stories and
be like, this is where I am now and relate
to that, but then they see you now and they're like,
(48:11):
but how how did you do it? What are some
key things that helps you get from fromvia to where
you are now?
Speaker 2 (48:20):
I think a lot of different things, and it was
a combination of things. And it also just wasn't like
a complete upward trajectory, you know, like it was an
incredibly bumpy road, and there were so many moments after
that that I would go through a period of time
(48:40):
where I didn't want to be here. That was not
the last time, but learn like every time I went
through it, though, I learned to handle it better. And
being really consistent with therapy, being really consistent with asking
for help and priority myself was really really important, and
(49:03):
also not beating myself up if I hit a low again,
because I used to hit a low and I'd be like, cool,
we're doing this again, Like I'm not going to try
because I already know what's going to happen. I'm going
to end up back in the hospital. And it's a
repeating cycle that's going to happen over and over and
over and over again. And I think that was some
of my helplessness kind of coming in. So there was
(49:27):
the therapy, the medication, the support, but then there was
a really really big shift in my mindset that had
to happen and in a mindset where I felt like
I could take control. And I think that was really
a moment where I took my power back. That was
essential for me to help myself. Was feeling capable of
(49:50):
helping myself and getting there takes practice. You know, you
don't get there overnight. You don't have these distortions and
then suddenly change it, you know, like that's not how
of affirmations work. It took a lot of practice and
consistency and repetition to really work on myself and prove
to myself that I could do these things, that I
(50:12):
had control, that I could take my power back, that
I could overcome these really hard things, even if the
road was really bumpy. You just you can't give up
when shit hits the fan, because it's life, and shit
is always going to hit the fan. It's always going
(50:32):
to happen. Things aren't going to work out the way
you want. All the time, and I had to learn
how to navigate that, I had to reteach myself how
to be regulated, how to cope, and I had a
lot of different resources that I used for that, but
I really had to learn. I had to teach myself
because I didn't know how to do it, and that
(50:55):
took a lot of time. It did not happen in
a year or two years. I'm still learning every day.
You know, like I'm not a perfect person. I still
have moments where things slip up and I have to
pick myself up again. And I think it's always going
to be that way, because that's just the human experience.
(51:17):
But when you can shift your mindset into a way
of like, Okay, this is really hard right now, but
I know I'm going to be okay, and I know
it's not always going to be like this, and I
know I'm capable of helping myself. I don't think i'd
be able to be where I am now if I
wasn't able to shift my perspective in what I was
(51:39):
capable of doing for myself.
Speaker 3 (51:42):
I think that's so incredibly important, and I know that
there was. It was kind of a similar thing for
me where I began to realize that so much of
my healing was going to lay in my own decisions,
the moments where I would want to run and pulsively
go and do something and just go right now in
(52:03):
this moment where this impulses come, like I have the
choice for that to not be the reality, Like same
as you're like, you know the process, you're gonna bet
up in hospital again, Like you have a choice right now,
And not saying that it's easy, like at all, but
all of those little choices, the choices to pick up
the phone and message someone, the choice to not put
(52:25):
on sad music and make self feel worse and let
it dwell, but like actively try to do something else.
And there is times where it just comes in waves
and it's harder to do those things. But this is
why I'm always so big when people come up to
me and they say, like, Jazz, you saved my life,
and I'm like, no, Like I didn't do that. All
I did was go, hey, there's another way. You are
(52:47):
the one that made these decisions. You're the one that
chose to fight. And I think that's so empowering for
people to know that, like these other external things can
be a part of your healing can help you, and
songs and artists and all these things are a part
of it.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
But at the end of the day, you are the
one that makes those decisions.
Speaker 3 (53:08):
And I'm so glad that you made those decisions over
and over and over again, because it means that I
get my friend here, it means that the world gets you.
It means that your son gets you, and Cameron does
and I'm just so incredibly grateful that you are here
with us and that you are in a position where
(53:30):
you are sharing your story. And you know, this podcast
is called Hope is Real, and I think your life
is just so evident of that, and I would love
to know, just kind of as a final question, what
does the word hope mean to you?
Speaker 2 (53:49):
I think hope to me means the possibility for change,
possibility for recovery, possibility for better experiences, a better life,
possibility for things to get better, for you to get better,
(54:10):
you know, like it's not black and white, like hope
is always there. And I think hope is kind of
like this space that if you choose to step into it,
you give yourself the opportunity to have more possibility, right,
(54:30):
Because I also think having hope is a mindset and
a choice to believe that you can have that. You know,
It's like similar to how can you change your perspective?
You know, if you can believe for just a moment
that there's hope, you are leaving the door open essentially
(54:52):
or good things to come and allowing for good things
to come.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
Gosh, I just I love you.
Speaker 3 (55:00):
I am so grateful to have you in my life
and that you've been willing and we could finally make
our calendars and schedules work.
Speaker 1 (55:06):
To come on.
Speaker 3 (55:07):
I know that you're very busy and you're doing a
million things, and you've got a kid and you go,
you just you've got so much going on in your world,
and so for you to take the time to come
and to chat on here and to be able to
inspire the people that are listening to know that one
thing right that no matter what it is that you're facing,
that hope is real. So thank you for fighting, thank
(55:27):
you for choosing to stay, thank you for choosing to
share your story, and for being.
Speaker 1 (55:33):
Such a cool friend. And I'm so excited for you
to get married.
Speaker 3 (55:38):
And I don't even care if you're like eloping, I
will be there, Okay. So you just tell me when where.
If it's a wedding, if it's a loping, I don't care.
If it's forty hours away, I will be there because
I am so excited.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
But where where can people find you? Where can people
follow you?
Speaker 3 (55:51):
Not physically find your house, obviously, but where can people
find anna?
Speaker 1 (55:56):
Yell?
Speaker 2 (55:57):
We just hand out my address for you, guys.
Speaker 3 (56:00):
Address, my bank account, details.
Speaker 2 (56:02):
My social Security number. No, I'm primarily on TikTok and Instagram.
That's really where I'm the most active. But I do
like to work more intimately with people, So I do
also do when I want to work with people within
the coaching business that I have as well.
Speaker 3 (56:21):
So are you taking new clients for that? Or no,
what are you taking new clients for that?
Speaker 1 (56:26):
At the moment.
Speaker 2 (56:28):
Yeah, it's kind of like a rolling thing, like as
people graduate from the program or as people feel like
they don't need more, they've got all they can out
of it and they move on, then I'll take in
a couple more people. So it's always kind of going.
Speaker 3 (56:45):
How can people get in touch about that if that's
something that might be interested in.
Speaker 2 (56:49):
So all of my socials have a link on it,
which gives you all the resources to either things I'm
doing or other resources. But one of those links will
basically be a place where you can give me your name,
your email, what you're struggling with, and so I can
see those and go through and I can respond and offer.
(57:11):
You know, hey, do you want to work together? Is
it's still something you want to pursue because.
Speaker 1 (57:15):
I have space amazing?
Speaker 3 (57:17):
Well, Hey, thank you so much again for taking the
time to come on this podcast. It really means a
lot and I cannot wait to see you again, hopefully soon.
Speaker 2 (57:25):
I know, thank you so much for having me. I
need you to come back to the States.
Speaker 1 (57:30):
Okay, I'll get on a plane right now. I'll just
drive to the airport.
Speaker 2 (57:33):
I mean you should probably just come here for Horror Nights.
Speaker 1 (57:37):
I mean, yeah, we need to. We need to read
you horr nights. Yeah, every year. We've done it since
we first met, so we're going to have to.
Speaker 2 (57:45):
I feel like if we if we break that chain now,
we can't. It would have to be happens.
Speaker 3 (57:52):
Yeah, yeah, okay, Well I will obviously be there for
horror Nights, but otherwise, have a fantastic Christy your day night.
I don't know what time it is where you are
right now. But again, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (58:04):
Of course, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (58:07):
Well do you have it, guys, thank you so much
for staying and for listening to this episode. And like
I've said at the beginning, and I always say, if
anything in this episode that's been talked about has brought
anything up for you, you feel like you need to
talk to someone, then please remember and know that the
bravest thing that you can do right now is to
talk to someone, is to ask for help, whether that's
(58:28):
from a friend, a family member, or if you don't
know who to talk to, then if you live in
Altaiola here you can call or text one seven three
seven at any time to talk to a train counselor,
or if you live overseas, go to dub dub dub
dot the Voices of Hope dot org for a list
of international helplines. Remember that no matter what it is
that you're facing, no matter what it is that you're
(58:49):
going through, that in all things, hope is real and
change is possible. I'll see you guys next week
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