November 5, 2024 • 48 mins
TW* This content discusses topics such as ........ and mental distress.
Jazz speaks to Brielle Gillingham a mental health advocate and counsellor who she met through the Voices Of Hope campaign.
Brielle shares her story about bullying at a young age in another country, depression in her teenage years and at the age of 30 being diagnosed with BPD and how she navigates the stigma associated with this disorder.
Hope Is Real is a Podcast to help you feel a little less alone, a bit more inspired, and a lot more hopeful. Join Jazz Thornton every week as she speaks to empowering and inspiring people from around the world and shares their stories to normalise the way we talk about mental health in society.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The ZM podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I couldn't control my emotions, especially my anger, and it
was just boiling over into every part of my life.
Having that stigma where people have that misunderstanding of BPD
that they instantly think, oh, this person has BPD, they're
really unstable, and that's just not true.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Hi, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, or whatever time
soon or whatever time that you're listening to. This. This
is Hope is Real the podcast. The podcast designed to
help you feel a little less alone, a bit more inspired,
and a lot more hopeful. Now, today's episode is one
that I am really excited about. I know that I
say that every single episode, but it's because it's true.
But this person is someone that I recently actually just
(00:46):
met when we were recording of Voices of Hope campaign.
Her name is Breal and she's a counselor from Altedola,
from New Zealand, and she lives with borderline personality disorder.
She was diagnosed at thirty and her whole world kind
of shifted. Brielle's story is one that is both heart
wrenching but also so inspiring and touches on a whole
(01:09):
lot of different things. The girl moved to Russia. When
she was a child, she experienced a lot of bullying,
and we kind of unpack what was it that led
to her BPD diagnosis, how did she feel about it,
how did her family react, kind of unpacking a whole
bunch of stuff that happened along the way. And again,
Brielle was someone that as I was interviewing her for
(01:30):
the Voices of Hope Project, I was just like, man,
I need to know more. I need to know more
of her story. And this episode is filled with tangents
and a whole lot of stuff that we just as
we talk about we kind of we literally talk about
everything and anything under the sun. But it's a beautiful episode.
She's a beautiful person. And again, as always trigger warning
for the kind of things that we do talk about.
(01:52):
If you have BPD or you know someone with BPD,
this is a great episode for you, but do take
your time and know that at any point you can
stop it. You can come back to it, talk to
people if you need to. But Brielle's story is coming
up right after this Brea. Welcome to Hope for is
a real podcast. I'm really excited to have you on.
(02:15):
I actually got to interview you recently for Voices of
Hope project, and as I was talking to you, I
was like, I need to know more. I need to
sit down with you, I need to have you on here,
and I'm super super excited. So for Federal, thank you
for coming, Thank you for having me. Oh my gosh.
Of course, when we were talking on the project that
we were doing, I was just really captivated and amazed
(02:37):
by the way that you were able to articulate a
lot of things that specifically here in an ALTI but
also around the world is so stigmatized. And I'm going
to kind of just honestly dive straight in. You were
diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, which for a lot of people,
and especially I would say, in the healthcare system, and
(02:59):
kind of just glow believe there's so much stigma and
so much misunderstanding. But not only are you diagnosed with BPD,
you're also a counselor, yes, which is like just phenomenal,
and so I would love to know kind of I
will kind of go back and forth a little bit.
I want to know about you childhood and stuff soon.
But when you got that diagnosis of BPD, can you
(03:20):
tell me what happened? What was the lead up? What happened?
How did you feel? So?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, So the lead up to it was I was,
I think mentally in a really really really rough place,
and I think I'd reached a point where I just
did not know who I was anymore.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
And I knew.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
That it had gotten to a point where, you know,
I'd been struggling with depression my whole life, like that
was just a given since definitely since I was seventeen,
and at this point I was, I was thirty, you know,
but this had just reached a point where.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
It was, you know, this wasn't it.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
And I was living in England at the.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Time, and my GP was like, you know, we've tried
all these different medications, you've tried all this. You know,
you've tried therapy. I'm gonna refer you to a psychiatrist.
I was angry all the time. I was emotional all
the time. I couldn't control my emotions, could especially my
(04:34):
anger over the most ridiculous things, and it was just
becoming something that I just couldn't have any control over
and it was just boiling over into every.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Part of my life.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
And I went and saw the public psychiatrist within England,
and it took a few times to go and see
different psychiatrists because it was the public systems.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
You didn't see the same psychiatrist.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Bumpy Road because obviously you don't get a straight answer.
So initially they thought, obviously it might be bipolar, but
eventually they diagnosed me with borderline personality disorder or emotional
instability personality disorder. How do you feel about that title
(05:27):
emotional instability? Yeah, it frustrates me. Yeah, it immensely frustrates
me because that means that it's just emotional instability that
encapsulates one part of what borderline personality is.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
I also think that that specific title is what also
creates so much of the stigma, right, is like that
it's you just can't, you can't control your emotions and
it's just too like and obviously, like you said, that's
a part of it. But then when you are deal
with like physical health things and a physical health like
setting and then they see you've got BBD, it's an
(06:08):
immediate kind of switch in their brain of like what's
actually going on. And that's because of all of these
other bloody things that it's been kind of thrown around
as how did you feel when you found out that
you had that diagnosis.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Peace, because well, a range of different emotions eventually peace,
I should say, mainly peace, But I think initially terrified
purely because they don't they don't really set you up
(06:44):
to feel or to understand exactly what it is. They're
sort of like, here's your diagnosis, bye bye. And they
also they do like a check in sort of afterwards,
and they don't really support you in that way because
obviously they also said to me, you can also get
(07:06):
over it by.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Having a life event, So get married or have a baby. Huh. Yeah,
you can get over it by having a life event.
A life event. That's the cure, the cure, the cure.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah, what is going on?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yes, okay, that's.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
I have not heard that.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
You're obviously so you've got that's from a lens of
someone who has been diagnosed with BBD. You also have
this from a lens of someone who's a counselor on
your counselor brain. What is your response to that?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
So I can look at it from multiple lenses, from
a from a from a lens of a of a
person who has borderline personality disorder? How do I say
this diplomatically. That's just not true. That's just not true. Yeah,
a life event is not a cure for mental health.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I just need to know where this guy got his
license from. That's just like, I'm sorry. If that was
the cure, I think we'd all just go get married
and pop a baby out.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Like I mean, at the time, I was a teacher,
so I wasn't a counselor. I mean, with my counselor
had on, I would like, I'd want to slap him
with his degree me to or his PhD or whatever
the hell he had to get his doctorate or whatever,
because even with my qualifications, a life event is not
(08:34):
going to solve your problems, no at all, like not remotely.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And also, BPD is something that you can't really get
diagnosed with until is it, like after sixteen or eighteen.
That's when they prefer.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
To give the diagnosis.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Very much, So, yeah, very much, because it's like, obviously
it's not that's not the same as a lot of
other meant wellnesses. This one is often kind of deep
rooted in some kind of childhood trauma that has retrained
the brain, and so sometimes you don't see the effets
of that. And also a lot of the times that
can be misdiagnosed as different things. I know, for you,
(09:09):
obviously they were looking at possibly bipolar. I know. For me,
I had the diagnosis of BPD when I was nineteen,
I think, and I remember I never got told. I
just saw it on like a discharge thing. And then
like many years later, I saw another psychiatrist and psychologists
and they were like, no, you've got PTSD and ADHD
(09:31):
and those combined have similar symptoms. Because I never never
had a lot of the symptoms of BPD, but they
slapped it on and then it affected every other time
that I went in to seek medical care.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
This is the issue with clinical notes as well. Yeah,
they don't tell you on your clinical notes, and you
can request your clinical notes as well, and this is
how you have to be, like, you have to be
careful with clinical notes because people can request those, yeah,
and that's.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
That's they can misdiagnose people.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
That's so bad, which then impacts But it should never
impact anyway the way that someone is being viewed and
treated in the healthcare system.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
But it does. Oh because of the stigmas. I would
love to know, you know, kind of speaking on this,
and especially to the people who know someone with BPD,
who are working with someone with BPD, all of those things.
As someone who lives with it, what do you want
these other people to know, Like, explain what it is
(10:33):
to live with BPD. Explain what it is to experience that.
But also I know that it's not doesn't define you,
and you still have so many other things about you.
Like sorry, that's a big, wide winded question.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
But I mean living with BPD is I mean, it's
it's one hundred percent not linear, and I have.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Really really good.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Pockets of time and moments and days and months, and
and then you know, then it can fall onto the
back foot where I don't have.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Good times.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
And I think.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Having that stigma where people, you know, when people have
that misunderstanding of BPD, that they instantly think, oh, this
person has BPD, you know they're really unstable.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
And that's just not true.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It's also the manipulative thing that I seely get strong
around to a lot as well, is that they're just manipulative,
and it's like, no, they're just terrified of losing you
and they're terrified of abandonment, and so they're going to
do everything they can to hold on to.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
That like it's yeah, sorry, oh no, absolutely absolutely, and
you know it's it's I think having that that that attachment,
you know, can be really really difficult, which is I
think why I mean personally, I keep my circle very
small because of that. I disappointment is very difficult for
(12:10):
me to deal with. So like if we make plans,
If we do make plans, I have to know what's happening.
And if those plans change, I need enough time in
advance to know when they're going to change, how they're
going to change, and if they're changing, why are they changing.
(12:33):
So there's like there's these things in advance that have
to happen, and for some people that's too much for
them to handle because it is a lot, it's a
lot to take on. Because if those types of things
don't happen and they fall apart, sometimes I can't cope
with that and that's a bit too much and for
(12:57):
some people, and that's totally understandable.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
If that's too much for Pete, that's fine. But that's
why my.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Circle is small, because the people that are in that
circle can handle that.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, I was talking to a phenomenal woman, doctor Courtney
Tracy from the US who's a psychologist who also lives
with BPD, and I was asking her a similar question
around like what would you say to friends and family
of those who have BPD? And I remember she just
kind of sat there and paused and was just like,
I'm so sorry, Like you have to understand, we don't
(13:30):
want this as much as you don't want this, Like
this is not something that we choose, This is not
something that we want. We know how destructive it can be,
we know how hard it can be, but give us grace.
And I think that's so important for people to understand that,
Like a lot of people living with BPD, like you know,
and you're aware of the behavior and the actions, maybe
(13:52):
not at the time and it's happening, but you know
that it's a thing that you have, but it's not
something you can control. Yeah, And I mean, what for
you would you say to people who do have BPD
in regards to like probably on with your counselor hair on,
Like what are things that they people can do to
be able to kind of help manage deal with understand
(14:17):
the ebbs and flows of it.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I think for people with BPD, I think everyone manages
their BPD differently. I learned recently about myself that I
internalize a lot of what I have going on, and
that a lot of what I have going on people
don't realize.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Unless I vocalize it.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
So if you are wanting people to understand you more,
you need to be able to communicate that to them.
If they're important to you and you want them to
be able to help you and understand you, they need
to be able to understand what's going on in here,
(15:04):
but they can't do that unless you talk to them.
Everyone with BPD has different things that tick them over.
For me, particularly anger is my tipping point, but I
(15:25):
internalize it and so a lot of it is being
able to communicate that so that people can understand why
it is the way that is. And I think if
you have loved ones that are wanting to support you
with your BPD, it is helpful to be able to
(15:48):
be able to communicate with them. I think if you're
struggling and there's not the support that's around you, that
can make it a bit more difficult, and that is
that is a lot harder and I do, I definitely
do empathize with that. When I lived in England, I
(16:10):
didn't have my family around me, and I was still
trying to navigate my BPD once I had the diagnosis
and trying to figure that out. And I'd had friends
who were really good, but bless them, they were they
were taking the brunt of it, the poor things, and
I will forever feel guilty for them having to take
(16:32):
the brunt of that. And so I think a lot
of your own self care and learning what self care
is for you that works for me at that time,
Borrowing into myself which was sleep, which was a healing
(16:58):
process for me at that time, Creating a safe environment
within myself, which was I think my room at the
time that was keeping me safe because it was out
like it kept what felt unsafe outside, and that meant
that my.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Triggers were outside of that space.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
That's really good. Been able to have those those kinds
of things, I think is so important. And also the
reason that I was so stoked that we had you
on this first campaign and to have you here now
is that I know so many young people who get
the diagnosis of BPD and then think that their life
is over and think that they're not going to be
able to do anything, and they see the way that
they're treated, and they see the way that they're responded to,
(17:44):
and they think that they can't have any careers or
they can't do these things. But you're sitting here, you're
a counselor you live with BPD, like you've been a teacher,
You've done all these things. And I think that's so
inspirational for people that do have this diegnosis and living
with this. And like we kind of said earlier, BPD
(18:05):
something that develops in the brain from some kind of trauma.
And I know that with yours, you went through a
crazy amount of bullying when you were younger. Can you
talk about that?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, So mine was sort of from when I was
seven and up until I was about seventeen, So it
was sort of long winded bullying off and on, which.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Is probably why.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Where it sort of stemmed from, which is probably why
when I got my diagnosis at thirty, it was eventually
became peace because I could go, oh my god, at seven,
this is where it started for me. When I was seven,
my family and I, which was my mum and dad
and my older sister, we moved to Russia for four years.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
That's so wild, I know, just in general, that's such
a wild statement. We just moved to Russia.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I know, my dad got a job over there. We
were supposed to go for three years. We ended up
going for four years, and.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I hated it.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I hated it.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
The rest of my family loved it, but it was
not the best for me, purely because I did not
have the best time socially. We went to Me and
my sister went to an international American school while we
were there, and I was sort of just like the
(19:39):
social outcast. I had no friends. I was very much
the I think there was in the total number of
I can't remember how many students they were there, but
of the hundred there was over there was hundreds of
kids there, and most of them were American. But of them,
I think there was like I remember there being like
(19:59):
a groan of how many students like nationalities, and there
was like six New Zealanders, so there was like obviously
not very many, two of them obviously being me and
my sister. And I just remember me, I had zero friends,
and I just remember being very alienated, for I was
(20:22):
very eccentric, very quirky, and very much that was very
much like picked on for that just very much that's
that's sort of just what sticks out in my head.
And I just remember one particular girl very much, highlighting
it every sort of twist and turn, how much how
(20:46):
much I was not like, how different I was, and
how much I was not like the rest and do
you know, just those kind of things, And that was
that was at that point. And then and obviously we
came home when I was eleven.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
And then it was.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
And then I remember being an intermediate and.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I remember.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
There being like a vote about whether I could be
whether I would be a good enough friend in a group,
like being like whether I would be allowed to be
friends with like anyone the vote yeah, oh my god, yeah,
and so like so there's like these kind of things,
so and so what one of the idiosyncrasies. One of
(21:40):
the things that is that attaches itself to me is
I remember the negative things in my life more than
I remember the positive things. That's what sticks with me
I am. I think it's just part of who I am.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
That makes sense though, Like that something I know that
even when, for example, like scrolling through social media and
I would see hundreds of good comments and you see
one bad comment and you're like and then you think
about that for the next ten years. Yes, Like it's
you know, I think the human brain for some reason
just dwells so much on the negative stuff. But when
it is so much that it almost blocks out all
of the positive stuff, that's when you have you know,
(22:20):
these big issues there.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah, and that's all you can focus on. Yeah, And
so the you go through life and like that's all
you can remember. And then so you go from intermediate
and to high school and that sort of sticks out.
And that's sort of when my weight changed, and then
my weight went up, and then that's you know, high
(22:46):
school sucks. Yeah already, Yeah, you know, we all know.
High school's you know, the worst place on earth. Correct,
you want to send anyone to the worst place on earth?
Send them to high school?
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Four teenagers?
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Oh, I know.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
But then it just sort of deteriorated a lot from there.
And from there then were there were my mental health.
And I remember the mind games, you know, and but
and I remember the you know, the fat jokes. The
(23:24):
I remember walking past someone and they would like as
I was walking past them, they would make the sound
like a giant like the boom boom boom sound like
you were walking past someone and I actually subconsciously actually
tried to walk lighter because I thought that that would
(23:46):
make them stop like that kind of stuff. And you
can just imagine those kind of things and then somehow
like people having issues with you and you've never met
them before and.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
They just came out.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
From you from left and right because you knew you
were just easy pray.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
And I mean, I get to speak in schools all
around the world now, and every time that I go
into any school, we often talk about the fact that,
you know, bullies often have a bigger bully in their
lives that they believe that it's okay or they believe
that it's normalized. And you see these kids and man,
they can just say some real hurtful things without any
cognitive understanding of the risk, like the how that's going
(24:43):
to be perceived and how it's going to impact the
person that they're saying it too. And I think now
even more so with social media and they can hide
behind a screen, and the bully and goes from school
to then also being at home, and it's the impact
and the toll that that has on someone and also
on the beliefs that you have about yourself, right, because
when you're so young, and your world is being shaped,
(25:07):
and your identity is being shaped and your beliefs, and
suddenly everyone around you that you're spending more time with
at school than you are at home are telling you
all these horrific things. Of course, your identity and who
you believe you are is going to shift. Oh yeah,
which is do you ever look back at that and
look at especially this diagnosis that you have, knowing that
(25:29):
it's been trauma based, do you ever get resentful or
angry at the fact that this has come from these
years that you are being bullied, or think about the
fact that, like, if you hadn't been bullied, would there
still be something that you struggled with?
Speaker 3 (25:46):
You know? Do you know what I would?
Speaker 2 (25:50):
But I think, to be honest, jazz that would take energy, Yeah,
and just don't think that they deserve that energy. And
but I've you know, I've lived with this for a
number of years now, and I think I've gotten to
the point now where it's been and because it's also
(26:14):
gone on for like we're talking like it from seven
to seventeen, so we're talking ten years. Yeah, And you
could also look at it from the other perspective of
if I saw them on the street, I would probably.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Turn and run the other way.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
So it's like a double edged sword. Yeah, so wouldn't
want to give them the time of day. And also
other triple edged sword would never ever go to my
high school reunion.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Oh neither.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
You couldn't pay me fifty million trillion absolutely dollars.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
No, yeah, not a chance.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah I feel your I feel And it's what I
think is so interesting is I feel the same about
like if I saw them in the street that I
still run the other way. And it's so interesting because
I'm like, I'm literally twenty nine and still I like
I sometimes see them comming on things on social media
and I'm like, this is so wild that like fifteen
years later, you're still coming after me. But I feel
(27:17):
like the same kid that I was back then, which
is I think people need to understand it, especially all
the young people that are listening to this. The impact
of your words now can stick with someone for life,
like it's oh, and people just don't understand that, Like
they don't understand the impact of words. And I mean
what I guess in both of our cases, at least
(27:40):
it has been able to be turned into something that
can help other people. And that's why I also really
love the fact that you've become a counselor because I
think that you know, having been in the mental health
field and being in as a mental health patient myself,
knowing that the best people working in those areas of
(28:00):
people that have been through it, because you can tell
when someone understands or if someone is just purely clinical.
And obviously purely clinical is needed at times, but for
someone who has got in the middle of it, to
have someone who resonates and understands, it's just so different.
What was it that made you quit teaching and go
(28:21):
into counseling, because that's a big shift.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
You'll actually find a lot of the counselors that I'm
training with at the moment used to be teachers. Wow wow,
and a lot of them are actually becoming counselors in
schools cool, which is really great. Also shows the need, right,
Oh definitely, yeah, I don't want to do that. I
definitely want to come completely out of schools. But that's
(28:48):
because I think for me, my era of being a
teacher is done. When I became a teacher, I came
out of finishing high school.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
I didn't finish high school.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
I finished end of sixth form, very very depressed, seventeen
year old, very you know, didn't want to be here anymore,
and who shocked her parents very much because they had
no idea obviously what was going on, because I didn't
tell them that I was being bullied and that I
(29:21):
didn't want to you know, I was also you know,
I was self harming.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
They didn't know anything.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
My school counselor actually forced me to tell my parents
because she had said, if you don't tell them, I will.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
How old were you first started self harming sixteen? Was
it something that you had seen somewhere or was it
just something that obviously with the emotions that had come up,
Like what was it?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
It was that was just the emotions that had come
up and they just got so overwhelming. It was it
was sitting in my stomach and it just got to
the point where I.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Had just needed to let they needed to come out.
The reason that I asked that is because I think
that self harm is something that, alongside BPD, is just
one of the most stigmatized in the way of like
it's just attention seeking and no one, no one is
doing that for like you've got it. You've got to
(30:21):
be even if it is that you need someone to pay,
but you need someone to pay attention. There's not a
bad thing. Like if a baby is crying on the ground,
you're not just going to ignore it, right, And I
think if someone is hurting enough that they feel like
that's something that they need to do for people to
understand the hurt, which majority of the time isn't even
the case, like it's just trying to deal with that pain.
(30:44):
It's just so misunderstood one hundred percent. Yeah, sorry, I
keep going off, but.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
That no, I totally agree with you. I totally agree
with you. There's the huge stigma stigmatized test stigmatization against
mental health, but against self harm, and I think there's
a lot of misunderstanding against it. And I think you
can attribute that a lot to the older generation as well.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, my parents were just like, what the hell do
we do with this? They had no idea. And I
have good conversations with my parents about it, more so
as we move on, but they had no idea what
to do.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Well, they were I guess what's interesting is I feel
like they were just masking it in different ways, right,
because the pain was still there for them. Obviously different
different kinds of pain, but pain is something that universally
we feel when people just respond to it in different ways.
And I think it's really interesting because, like, for example,
our suicide stats here as majority middle aged men, people
(31:54):
who have never been able to deal with or understand
emotions or how you know. And so I think it's
interesting when you then look at a teenage girl who
is self harming because of the pain and just trying
to let it out and go, that's attention seeking. It's
like they're just trying to deal with the stuff so
that they don't end up you know. Yes, it's yeah, yeah,
(32:17):
I've gone off topic completely, but it's just something I've
seen a lot of on social media especially, and obviously
there is a lot of conversations and concern around it
becoming a trend among young people. But still someone's got
to be hurting to do that.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, but then you have half the problem with social
media being half the problem.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, because social media, you know, it reaches such a
huge and it's huge. Aren't you so glad that you
didn't have social media when you were going through this?
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Social media?
Speaker 2 (32:50):
This is going to make me sound like a like
a really really old Pelican. But social media was like
just sort of picking up when I was in high
school Bebo, yes, yes, miss in missing.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Yeah, like I look now and there are kids that
are posting in psych wards and that you know, I'm
like me and my co founder Gin you know, we've
often talked about the fact that we're so glad that
we didn't have this instant social media connection back then
because like, oh my gosh, that stuff is documented forever,
like you can't get rid of it, and it's like
(33:29):
it's wild. But anyway, you were a teacher and you
became a counselor. I have so many tangents. Also, my
little ADHD brain is like this and yeah, like.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, no, but I get what you mean because like, yeah,
on the TikTok, I WoT other TikTok on the TikTok
showing my age because I watch and there is this
watch ye.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
No anyway, yes, so and so when I left high.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
School, I think I worked for my parents for about
a year and then I just I actually just decided
to become an early childhood teacher.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Randomly. I love that for you.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I just randomly decided to become very but again, impulsively
and impulsivity, it's just another one. And I am really
really impulsively too.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
I'm like, yeah, that's why they thought I had BPD
for so long, because my impulsivity was through the roof,
like through the roof, and now it's turned into like
impulsivity buying and by impulsive buying is terrible, but that's
that's again, that's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Yeah, like.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Moneyw like with debt and stuff like that, that's just
another thing because you just like I like if you
like with mood changing, like mood switching can be very
big thing as well, So your moods will switch and
like being on a high, Like it's very rare for
(35:08):
me to be very high, Like I can be happy,
but it's very rare for me to be hyper.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
I'll be hyper very rarely.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
But if I'm hyper, it's not a good thing. It's
not a good thing.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
But anyway, yeah, so I did EC and I did
this is probably a good example of impulsivity.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
So I did.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Distance learning for my diploma in early childhood and so
I did that and then upgraded it to for a
year to my degree in early childhood and in between
that became did my full registration, which takes a couple
of years to be fully registered as a teacher, and
(36:00):
then did my postgraduate diploma in early childhood education, went
over seas and taught in England and became an assistant
principal in a primary school.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah, and I loved that experience but burnt myself out
doing it. Wouldn't change it for the world because it
was a really great experience, met some amazing people, but
my mental health took a toll. Got diagnosed with BPD.
(36:39):
But I didn't get diagnosed with BPD because I went
to England. I got diagnosed with BPD because.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
You went to Russia.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
I went to Russia.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
H So, like you know, I went to Russia and
you know, you know all of this kind of stuff. So, like,
you know, all of that happened.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
And so.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
I decided that I came home from England and I
was a shell of a human. I also came home
in the height of COVID, so shell of a human
with BPD. So this is an interesting experience for someone
who's you know, had a mental breakdown with BPD in
(37:28):
the middle of COVID.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Oh, you would have to gone to isolation. Yeah, I
had to do that too.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Oh it was very interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
So this was before you had to book, right, so
they just put you in a hotel. So I was
very lucky because this was also the point where I
also like, I couldn't be I didn't like. I'm also
quite sounds very strange. Most people think it's very strange
because when I meet people people, because I'm quite an
(38:01):
introverted person, but people are like, I don't get that
vibe from you. I get quite an extroverted vibe, and
I'm just like, I don't really like a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
I'm I quite like my own little bubble.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
But I'm like, I'm quite a socially anxious kind of person,
and so I don't like. At the time, being touched
by anybody was quite a bit of an issue. I'm
pretty good about it now, Yeah, I'm good.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
I'm quite good about it now.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Hugging is fine now, but like back then, to touch anybody,
I would be like this, wow, now absolutely fine, So
absolutely fine. But so going into managed isolation, I was like,
please dear God, don't fly me down to christ Church,
because that's what they were doing. Yes, like you fly
(38:51):
into Auckland and I just flew from England that if
they needed to, they'd fly you down to christ Church.
We need to talk about this experience for a moment,
because I feel like I haven't seen anything about like
when you land in the country when this was happening
and you don't get to get your bags and you're
greeted by like the Navy.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Was this your experience.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yet, so they come and get you off the plane.
So they come and because I had a layover in Singapore.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Yeah, and so this is how much.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
My parents there's such little delights because they paid for
me to go premium economy just to try and see
if it would make my experience just a little bit
if the airline would take care of me a little
bit better, just for my mental health. And there were
like four other people within premium economy, so it was
quite nice because that was but it worked out even
(39:48):
better because like there was like no one on the
flight anyway. Yeah yeah, but they like come and get
you off the flight, put you in an area, leave
you there and then take your way again.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
But with like with the guards and with that, like
it was I remember when I landed and just being like, oh,
my gosh, I feel like I've done something wrong, or
I'm like arriving in some crazy thing and then you
get on a bus and you don't know where you're going, yes,
and then you just arrive at a hotel. I hope
I've answered your questions correctly.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
What if I've answered them wrong, where are you going
to put me?
Speaker 1 (40:18):
I know, like I just oh, my gosh, and like
I I mean, I managed to turn mine into quite
I was unboxing all my food, which for some reason
blew up on TikTok. People were so like millions and
millions and millions of views of me unboxing my food
three times a day, and just like people were so
invested to the point that America, there was this news
(40:38):
piece that went out from some I don't even know
what it was claiming to be like getting the truth
of the news, and it was saying that all of
New Zealand was in a concentration camp, which, first of all,
the audacity of you to ever compare anything to that. Secondly,
oh my god, I'm sitting at a bed in a
hotel getting food delivered to me three times a day.
I can order a coffee, like.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
You know, I'm just chilling. How is it?
Speaker 1 (41:01):
How do you interesting comparison? But okay, I know, sorry,
we're still not at the point where you became a colt.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
No, that's fine, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
I'm fine with that.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
But like that was fine because like I had the
exact same experience because they bust me to a hotel
which was fine.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Four points on sheriton.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
Ah, how's that sedema?
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Ah? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
This hotel had had a little walk a little area
where you could go downstairs once a day to walk around.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Couldn't I couldn't do that because I couldn't leave my room. Wow.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
So I left my room to do the coup the
two COVID tests yea horrible which I had to do,
which surprisingly one nostril was fine, second nostril and I think, yeah,
that was painful. I don't know why that was, but that, yeah,
that was interesting. But I couldn't leave.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
But when I.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Left, because I was so it was I had mental
health nurses ringing me every other day to check up
on me, as well as the nurse that was based
at the hotel ringing me every day to check up
on me. The mental health nurse was advising me whether
I needed to take any additional medication to check up
on me, and then I actually had one of the
(42:22):
Navy women.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
She came up and escorted me.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Down to leave because that day Auckland went back into lockdown.
My parents don't live in Auckland. Who were coming to
get me because obviously I've moved back from England, I
don't have any way to live. I was going to
live with my parents. They live outside of Auckland, like
two hours outside of Auckland.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Oh, and put the barrier up. Yeah, so a bus
had to drive us outside to Mercer.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
So actually someone came up to get me to bring
me down because I couldn't physically get myself down because
I was so overwhelmed. She'd put me, she had to
put me in a different elevator because COVID, but she
took my bag, she got me sorted with, like she
did all my paperwork. She'd take me around to the
(43:12):
different places that I needed to go and got me
on the bus because I couldn't do it.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
So it was just.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Different experiences that supported me the way through. I don't
know how we got onto this part of the story,
but how you became a counselor.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
She was like I don't even know was it well,
you know, because obviously you've had all these experiences and
I think, I don't know if this is where you're
going with that as well, But having all of those
people that were helping you along the way, that was that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
So they supported me all the way through, even though
I was a shell of a person.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Yeah, I thought I didn't want to be a teacher anymore.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
I definitely set myself to the point where I had
burnt myself out. It wasn't something I wanted to do.
I think I just had set myself to that point.
I just finished high school, just did it.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
And then became an assistant principle.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
So I just and then I really sat down and
thought about it. It took me about six months to
put myself back together again. Yeah, and I decided that
being a counselor was something that I wanted to give back. Yeah,
you know, I also wanted to highlight the fact that
(44:25):
you can live with mental health, you can live with BPD,
and you can do anything. You are going to have
roadblocks because God forbid. You know, I have some physical
health issues at the moment that are causing me some issues,
and at the moment I have when I go into
(44:48):
the hospital. I don't disclose my BPD at the moment
until the very end when they asked me what my
medications are, and then they asked me why I am
on those medications.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Then I tell them I.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Have BPD, but they've already treated me medical for my
physical attributes at tributes.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
That's so helpful that you were diagnosed overseas for that,
because I know in New Zealand that a lot of
the times it comes up on your hospital records they
type your name.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Yeah, Well, it already comes up on my hospital records
now because I've been back for four years and because
I've had so many like I'm very much into the
system with psychiatrists and things like that, so it's very
much intertwined with within the hospital systems. But I think
definitely that it was yeah, yeah, diagnosed overseas lot.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I think, Man, I'm so thankful that you've been willing
to sit down with me twice and a short spent
a time. We did the last ones if you nicey
long ago. But like I said at the beginning, I
just think you represent Hope so well and just the
way that you've been able to go and create this
career and to be able to do it, to be
(46:03):
helping people and to show people that you can live
a successful life. And I love what you just said
before you can do anything, like you can absolutely do anything.
And we've talked about their advice that you know you
have people with BPD and the people around BPD. And
there's one last question that I want to say before
I let you go. I don't want to let you
go because I could talk to you for hours, but
also I'm going to get told off if I do that.
(46:24):
But I want to know I asked this to every person.
This podcast is called Hope is Real. What does the
word hope mean to you?
Speaker 2 (46:33):
I think hope can encapsulate so many different things. But
hope that life doesn't end when you think it does.
Hope that you have got so much more life to live,
(47:00):
and that just because you may have a diagnosis of BPD,
you know there is still hope.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
I love that. I love that. Thank you so much
for coming on.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
The podcast, appreciate having me.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Oh my gosh, let's do this again twelve more times.
So much need to discuss.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
I could talk till the cows come on.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
That's the problem. No, Thank you so much for coming on.
You're so welcome. Thank you for having me well that
you have it, guys, thank you so much for staying
and for listening to this episode. And like I've said
at the beginning, and I always say, if anything in
this episode that's been talked about has brought anything up
for you, you feel like you need to talk to someone,
then please remember and know that the bravest thing that
(47:43):
you can do right now is to talk to someone,
is to ask for help, whether that's from a friend,
a family member, or if you don't know who to
talk to, then if you live in Altiola here you
can call or text one seven three seven at any
time to talk to a trained counselor. Or if you
live overseas, go to dubdubdub dot the Voices of Hope
dot org for a list of international helplines. Remember that
(48:07):
no matter what it is that you're facing, no matter
what it is that you're going through, that in all things,
hope is real and change is possible. I'll see you
guys next week
The ZM podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
I couldn't control my emotions, especially my anger, and it
was just boiling over into every part of my life.
Having that stigma where people have that misunderstanding of BPD
that they instantly think, oh, this person has BPD, they're
really unstable, and that's just not true.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Hi, good morning, good afternoon, good evening, or whatever time
soon or whatever time that you're listening to. This. This
is Hope is Real the podcast. The podcast designed to
help you feel a little less alone, a bit more inspired,
and a lot more hopeful. Now, today's episode is one
that I am really excited about. I know that I
say that every single episode, but it's because it's true.
But this person is someone that I recently actually just
(00:46):
met when we were recording of Voices of Hope campaign.
Her name is Breal and she's a counselor from Altedola,
from New Zealand, and she lives with borderline personality disorder.
She was diagnosed at thirty and her whole world kind
of shifted. Brielle's story is one that is both heart
wrenching but also so inspiring and touches on a whole
(01:09):
lot of different things. The girl moved to Russia. When
she was a child, she experienced a lot of bullying,
and we kind of unpack what was it that led
to her BPD diagnosis, how did she feel about it,
how did her family react, kind of unpacking a whole
bunch of stuff that happened along the way. And again,
Brielle was someone that as I was interviewing her for
(01:30):
the Voices of Hope Project, I was just like, man,
I need to know more. I need to know more
of her story. And this episode is filled with tangents
and a whole lot of stuff that we just as
we talk about we kind of we literally talk about
everything and anything under the sun. But it's a beautiful episode.
She's a beautiful person. And again, as always trigger warning
for the kind of things that we do talk about.
(01:52):
If you have BPD or you know someone with BPD,
this is a great episode for you, but do take
your time and know that at any point you can
stop it. You can come back to it, talk to
people if you need to. But Brielle's story is coming
up right after this Brea. Welcome to Hope for is
a real podcast. I'm really excited to have you on.
(02:15):
I actually got to interview you recently for Voices of
Hope project, and as I was talking to you, I
was like, I need to know more. I need to
sit down with you, I need to have you on here,
and I'm super super excited. So for Federal, thank you
for coming, Thank you for having me. Oh my gosh.
Of course, when we were talking on the project that
we were doing, I was just really captivated and amazed
(02:37):
by the way that you were able to articulate a
lot of things that specifically here in an ALTI but
also around the world is so stigmatized. And I'm going
to kind of just honestly dive straight in. You were
diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, which for a lot of people,
and especially I would say, in the healthcare system, and
(02:59):
kind of just glow believe there's so much stigma and
so much misunderstanding. But not only are you diagnosed with BPD,
you're also a counselor, yes, which is like just phenomenal,
and so I would love to know kind of I
will kind of go back and forth a little bit.
I want to know about you childhood and stuff soon.
But when you got that diagnosis of BPD, can you
(03:20):
tell me what happened? What was the lead up? What happened?
How did you feel? So?
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Yeah, So the lead up to it was I was,
I think mentally in a really really really rough place,
and I think I'd reached a point where I just
did not know who I was anymore.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
And I knew.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
That it had gotten to a point where, you know,
I'd been struggling with depression my whole life, like that
was just a given since definitely since I was seventeen,
and at this point I was, I was thirty, you know,
but this had just reached a point where.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
It was, you know, this wasn't it.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
And I was living in England at the.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Time, and my GP was like, you know, we've tried
all these different medications, you've tried all this. You know,
you've tried therapy. I'm gonna refer you to a psychiatrist.
I was angry all the time. I was emotional all
the time. I couldn't control my emotions, could especially my
(04:34):
anger over the most ridiculous things, and it was just
becoming something that I just couldn't have any control over
and it was just boiling over into every.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Part of my life.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
And I went and saw the public psychiatrist within England,
and it took a few times to go and see
different psychiatrists because it was the public systems.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
You didn't see the same psychiatrist.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
Bumpy Road because obviously you don't get a straight answer.
So initially they thought, obviously it might be bipolar, but
eventually they diagnosed me with borderline personality disorder or emotional
instability personality disorder. How do you feel about that title
(05:27):
emotional instability? Yeah, it frustrates me. Yeah, it immensely frustrates
me because that means that it's just emotional instability that
encapsulates one part of what borderline personality is.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
I also think that that specific title is what also
creates so much of the stigma, right, is like that
it's you just can't, you can't control your emotions and
it's just too like and obviously, like you said, that's
a part of it. But then when you are deal
with like physical health things and a physical health like
setting and then they see you've got BBD, it's an
(06:08):
immediate kind of switch in their brain of like what's
actually going on. And that's because of all of these
other bloody things that it's been kind of thrown around
as how did you feel when you found out that
you had that diagnosis.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Peace, because well, a range of different emotions eventually peace,
I should say, mainly peace, But I think initially terrified
purely because they don't they don't really set you up
(06:44):
to feel or to understand exactly what it is. They're
sort of like, here's your diagnosis, bye bye. And they
also they do like a check in sort of afterwards,
and they don't really support you in that way because
obviously they also said to me, you can also get
(07:06):
over it by.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Having a life event, So get married or have a baby. Huh. Yeah,
you can get over it by having a life event.
A life event. That's the cure, the cure, the cure.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Yeah, what is going on?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Yes, okay, that's.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
I have not heard that.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
You're obviously so you've got that's from a lens of
someone who has been diagnosed with BBD. You also have
this from a lens of someone who's a counselor on
your counselor brain. What is your response to that?
Speaker 2 (07:40):
So I can look at it from multiple lenses, from
a from a from a lens of a of a
person who has borderline personality disorder? How do I say
this diplomatically. That's just not true. That's just not true. Yeah,
a life event is not a cure for mental health.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
I just need to know where this guy got his
license from. That's just like, I'm sorry. If that was
the cure, I think we'd all just go get married
and pop a baby out.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Like I mean, at the time, I was a teacher,
so I wasn't a counselor. I mean, with my counselor
had on, I would like, I'd want to slap him
with his degree me to or his PhD or whatever
the hell he had to get his doctorate or whatever,
because even with my qualifications, a life event is not
(08:34):
going to solve your problems, no at all, like not remotely.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
And also, BPD is something that you can't really get
diagnosed with until is it, like after sixteen or eighteen.
That's when they prefer.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
To give the diagnosis.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Very much, So, yeah, very much, because it's like, obviously
it's not that's not the same as a lot of
other meant wellnesses. This one is often kind of deep
rooted in some kind of childhood trauma that has retrained
the brain, and so sometimes you don't see the effets
of that. And also a lot of the times that
can be misdiagnosed as different things. I know, for you,
(09:09):
obviously they were looking at possibly bipolar. I know. For me,
I had the diagnosis of BPD when I was nineteen,
I think, and I remember I never got told. I
just saw it on like a discharge thing. And then
like many years later, I saw another psychiatrist and psychologists
and they were like, no, you've got PTSD and ADHD
(09:31):
and those combined have similar symptoms. Because I never never
had a lot of the symptoms of BPD, but they
slapped it on and then it affected every other time
that I went in to seek medical care.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
This is the issue with clinical notes as well. Yeah,
they don't tell you on your clinical notes, and you
can request your clinical notes as well, and this is
how you have to be, like, you have to be
careful with clinical notes because people can request those, yeah,
and that's.
Speaker 3 (10:01):
That's they can misdiagnose people.
Speaker 1 (10:04):
That's so bad, which then impacts But it should never
impact anyway the way that someone is being viewed and
treated in the healthcare system.
Speaker 3 (10:12):
Absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (10:13):
But it does. Oh because of the stigmas. I would
love to know, you know, kind of speaking on this,
and especially to the people who know someone with BPD,
who are working with someone with BPD, all of those things.
As someone who lives with it, what do you want
these other people to know, Like, explain what it is
(10:33):
to live with BPD. Explain what it is to experience that.
But also I know that it's not doesn't define you,
and you still have so many other things about you.
Like sorry, that's a big, wide winded question.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
But I mean living with BPD is I mean, it's
it's one hundred percent not linear, and I have.
Speaker 3 (10:55):
Really really good.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Pockets of time and moments and days and months, and
and then you know, then it can fall onto the
back foot where I don't have.
Speaker 3 (11:11):
Good times.
Speaker 1 (11:14):
And I think.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Having that stigma where people, you know, when people have
that misunderstanding of BPD, that they instantly think, oh, this
person has BPD, you know they're really unstable.
Speaker 3 (11:30):
And that's just not true.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
It's also the manipulative thing that I seely get strong
around to a lot as well, is that they're just manipulative,
and it's like, no, they're just terrified of losing you
and they're terrified of abandonment, and so they're going to
do everything they can to hold on to.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
That like it's yeah, sorry, oh no, absolutely absolutely, and
you know it's it's I think having that that that attachment,
you know, can be really really difficult, which is I
think why I mean personally, I keep my circle very
small because of that. I disappointment is very difficult for
(12:10):
me to deal with. So like if we make plans,
If we do make plans, I have to know what's happening.
And if those plans change, I need enough time in
advance to know when they're going to change, how they're
going to change, and if they're changing, why are they changing.
(12:33):
So there's like there's these things in advance that have
to happen, and for some people that's too much for
them to handle because it is a lot, it's a
lot to take on. Because if those types of things
don't happen and they fall apart, sometimes I can't cope
with that and that's a bit too much and for
(12:57):
some people, and that's totally understandable.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
If that's too much for Pete, that's fine. But that's
why my.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
Circle is small, because the people that are in that
circle can handle that.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah, I was talking to a phenomenal woman, doctor Courtney
Tracy from the US who's a psychologist who also lives
with BPD, and I was asking her a similar question
around like what would you say to friends and family
of those who have BPD? And I remember she just
kind of sat there and paused and was just like,
I'm so sorry, Like you have to understand, we don't
(13:30):
want this as much as you don't want this, Like
this is not something that we choose, This is not
something that we want. We know how destructive it can be,
we know how hard it can be, but give us grace.
And I think that's so important for people to understand that,
Like a lot of people living with BPD, like you know,
and you're aware of the behavior and the actions, maybe
(13:52):
not at the time and it's happening, but you know
that it's a thing that you have, but it's not
something you can control. Yeah, And I mean, what for
you would you say to people who do have BPD
in regards to like probably on with your counselor hair on,
Like what are things that they people can do to
be able to kind of help manage deal with understand
(14:17):
the ebbs and flows of it.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I think for people with BPD, I think everyone manages
their BPD differently. I learned recently about myself that I
internalize a lot of what I have going on, and
that a lot of what I have going on people
don't realize.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Unless I vocalize it.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
So if you are wanting people to understand you more,
you need to be able to communicate that to them.
If they're important to you and you want them to
be able to help you and understand you, they need
to be able to understand what's going on in here,
(15:04):
but they can't do that unless you talk to them.
Everyone with BPD has different things that tick them over.
For me, particularly anger is my tipping point, but I
(15:25):
internalize it and so a lot of it is being
able to communicate that so that people can understand why
it is the way that is. And I think if
you have loved ones that are wanting to support you
with your BPD, it is helpful to be able to
(15:48):
be able to communicate with them. I think if you're
struggling and there's not the support that's around you, that
can make it a bit more difficult, and that is
that is a lot harder and I do, I definitely
do empathize with that. When I lived in England, I
(16:10):
didn't have my family around me, and I was still
trying to navigate my BPD once I had the diagnosis
and trying to figure that out. And I'd had friends
who were really good, but bless them, they were they
were taking the brunt of it, the poor things, and
I will forever feel guilty for them having to take
(16:32):
the brunt of that. And so I think a lot
of your own self care and learning what self care
is for you that works for me at that time,
Borrowing into myself which was sleep, which was a healing
(16:58):
process for me at that time, Creating a safe environment
within myself, which was I think my room at the
time that was keeping me safe because it was out
like it kept what felt unsafe outside, and that meant
that my.
Speaker 3 (17:18):
Triggers were outside of that space.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
That's really good. Been able to have those those kinds
of things, I think is so important. And also the
reason that I was so stoked that we had you
on this first campaign and to have you here now
is that I know so many young people who get
the diagnosis of BPD and then think that their life
is over and think that they're not going to be
able to do anything, and they see the way that
they're treated, and they see the way that they're responded to,
(17:44):
and they think that they can't have any careers or
they can't do these things. But you're sitting here, you're
a counselor you live with BPD, like you've been a teacher,
You've done all these things. And I think that's so
inspirational for people that do have this diegnosis and living
with this. And like we kind of said earlier, BPD
(18:05):
something that develops in the brain from some kind of trauma.
And I know that with yours, you went through a
crazy amount of bullying when you were younger. Can you
talk about that?
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah, So mine was sort of from when I was
seven and up until I was about seventeen, So it
was sort of long winded bullying off and on, which.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Is probably why.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Where it sort of stemmed from, which is probably why
when I got my diagnosis at thirty, it was eventually
became peace because I could go, oh my god, at seven,
this is where it started for me. When I was seven,
my family and I, which was my mum and dad
and my older sister, we moved to Russia for four years.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
That's so wild, I know, just in general, that's such
a wild statement. We just moved to Russia.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
I know, my dad got a job over there. We
were supposed to go for three years. We ended up
going for four years, and.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
I hated it.
Speaker 3 (19:13):
I hated it.
Speaker 2 (19:15):
The rest of my family loved it, but it was
not the best for me, purely because I did not
have the best time socially. We went to Me and
my sister went to an international American school while we
were there, and I was sort of just like the
(19:39):
social outcast. I had no friends. I was very much
the I think there was in the total number of
I can't remember how many students they were there, but
of the hundred there was over there was hundreds of
kids there, and most of them were American. But of them,
I think there was like I remember there being like
(19:59):
a groan of how many students like nationalities, and there
was like six New Zealanders, so there was like obviously
not very many, two of them obviously being me and
my sister. And I just remember me, I had zero friends,
and I just remember being very alienated, for I was
(20:22):
very eccentric, very quirky, and very much that was very
much like picked on for that just very much that's
that's sort of just what sticks out in my head.
And I just remember one particular girl very much, highlighting
it every sort of twist and turn, how much how
(20:46):
much I was not like, how different I was, and
how much I was not like the rest and do
you know, just those kind of things, And that was
that was at that point. And then and obviously we
came home when I was eleven.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
And then it was.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
And then I remember being an intermediate and.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
I remember.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
There being like a vote about whether I could be
whether I would be a good enough friend in a group,
like being like whether I would be allowed to be
friends with like anyone the vote yeah, oh my god, yeah,
and so like so there's like these kind of things,
so and so what one of the idiosyncrasies. One of
(21:40):
the things that is that attaches itself to me is
I remember the negative things in my life more than
I remember the positive things. That's what sticks with me
I am. I think it's just part of who I am.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
That makes sense though, Like that something I know that
even when, for example, like scrolling through social media and
I would see hundreds of good comments and you see
one bad comment and you're like and then you think
about that for the next ten years. Yes, Like it's
you know, I think the human brain for some reason
just dwells so much on the negative stuff. But when
it is so much that it almost blocks out all
of the positive stuff, that's when you have you know,
(22:20):
these big issues there.
Speaker 2 (22:22):
Yeah, and that's all you can focus on. Yeah, And
so the you go through life and like that's all
you can remember. And then so you go from intermediate
and to high school and that sort of sticks out.
And that's sort of when my weight changed, and then
my weight went up, and then that's you know, high
(22:46):
school sucks. Yeah already, Yeah, you know, we all know.
High school's you know, the worst place on earth. Correct,
you want to send anyone to the worst place on earth?
Send them to high school?
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Four teenagers?
Speaker 3 (22:57):
Oh, I know.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
But then it just sort of deteriorated a lot from there.
And from there then were there were my mental health.
And I remember the mind games, you know, and but
and I remember the you know, the fat jokes. The
(23:24):
I remember walking past someone and they would like as
I was walking past them, they would make the sound
like a giant like the boom boom boom sound like
you were walking past someone and I actually subconsciously actually
tried to walk lighter because I thought that that would
(23:46):
make them stop like that kind of stuff. And you
can just imagine those kind of things and then somehow
like people having issues with you and you've never met
them before and.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
They just came out.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
From you from left and right because you knew you
were just easy pray.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
And I mean, I get to speak in schools all
around the world now, and every time that I go
into any school, we often talk about the fact that,
you know, bullies often have a bigger bully in their
lives that they believe that it's okay or they believe
that it's normalized. And you see these kids and man,
they can just say some real hurtful things without any
cognitive understanding of the risk, like the how that's going
(24:43):
to be perceived and how it's going to impact the
person that they're saying it too. And I think now
even more so with social media and they can hide
behind a screen, and the bully and goes from school
to then also being at home, and it's the impact
and the toll that that has on someone and also
on the beliefs that you have about yourself, right, because
when you're so young, and your world is being shaped,
(25:07):
and your identity is being shaped and your beliefs, and
suddenly everyone around you that you're spending more time with
at school than you are at home are telling you
all these horrific things. Of course, your identity and who
you believe you are is going to shift. Oh yeah,
which is do you ever look back at that and
look at especially this diagnosis that you have, knowing that
(25:29):
it's been trauma based, do you ever get resentful or
angry at the fact that this has come from these
years that you are being bullied, or think about the
fact that, like, if you hadn't been bullied, would there
still be something that you struggled with?
Speaker 3 (25:46):
You know? Do you know what I would?
Speaker 2 (25:50):
But I think, to be honest, jazz that would take energy, Yeah,
and just don't think that they deserve that energy. And
but I've you know, I've lived with this for a
number of years now, and I think I've gotten to
the point now where it's been and because it's also
(26:14):
gone on for like we're talking like it from seven
to seventeen, so we're talking ten years. Yeah, And you
could also look at it from the other perspective of
if I saw them on the street, I would probably.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
Turn and run the other way.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
So it's like a double edged sword. Yeah, so wouldn't
want to give them the time of day. And also
other triple edged sword would never ever go to my
high school reunion.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Oh neither.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
You couldn't pay me fifty million trillion absolutely dollars.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
No, yeah, not a chance.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Yeah I feel your I feel And it's what I
think is so interesting is I feel the same about
like if I saw them in the street that I
still run the other way. And it's so interesting because
I'm like, I'm literally twenty nine and still I like
I sometimes see them comming on things on social media
and I'm like, this is so wild that like fifteen
years later, you're still coming after me. But I feel
(27:17):
like the same kid that I was back then, which
is I think people need to understand it, especially all
the young people that are listening to this. The impact
of your words now can stick with someone for life,
like it's oh, and people just don't understand that, Like
they don't understand the impact of words. And I mean
what I guess in both of our cases, at least
(27:40):
it has been able to be turned into something that
can help other people. And that's why I also really
love the fact that you've become a counselor because I
think that you know, having been in the mental health
field and being in as a mental health patient myself,
knowing that the best people working in those areas of
(28:00):
people that have been through it, because you can tell
when someone understands or if someone is just purely clinical.
And obviously purely clinical is needed at times, but for
someone who has got in the middle of it, to
have someone who resonates and understands, it's just so different.
What was it that made you quit teaching and go
(28:21):
into counseling, because that's a big shift.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
You'll actually find a lot of the counselors that I'm
training with at the moment used to be teachers. Wow wow,
and a lot of them are actually becoming counselors in
schools cool, which is really great. Also shows the need, right,
Oh definitely, yeah, I don't want to do that. I
definitely want to come completely out of schools. But that's
(28:48):
because I think for me, my era of being a
teacher is done. When I became a teacher, I came
out of finishing high school.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
I didn't finish high school.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
I finished end of sixth form, very very depressed, seventeen
year old, very you know, didn't want to be here anymore,
and who shocked her parents very much because they had
no idea obviously what was going on, because I didn't
tell them that I was being bullied and that I
(29:21):
didn't want to you know, I was also you know,
I was self harming.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
They didn't know anything.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
My school counselor actually forced me to tell my parents
because she had said, if you don't tell them, I will.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
How old were you first started self harming sixteen? Was
it something that you had seen somewhere or was it
just something that obviously with the emotions that had come up,
Like what was it?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
It was that was just the emotions that had come
up and they just got so overwhelming. It was it
was sitting in my stomach and it just got to
the point where I.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Had just needed to let they needed to come out.
The reason that I asked that is because I think
that self harm is something that, alongside BPD, is just
one of the most stigmatized in the way of like
it's just attention seeking and no one, no one is
doing that for like you've got it. You've got to
(30:21):
be even if it is that you need someone to pay,
but you need someone to pay attention. There's not a
bad thing. Like if a baby is crying on the ground,
you're not just going to ignore it, right, And I
think if someone is hurting enough that they feel like
that's something that they need to do for people to
understand the hurt, which majority of the time isn't even
the case, like it's just trying to deal with that pain.
(30:44):
It's just so misunderstood one hundred percent. Yeah, sorry, I
keep going off, but.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
That no, I totally agree with you. I totally agree
with you. There's the huge stigma stigmatized test stigmatization against
mental health, but against self harm, and I think there's
a lot of misunderstanding against it. And I think you
can attribute that a lot to the older generation as well.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
Yeah, my parents were just like, what the hell do
we do with this? They had no idea. And I
have good conversations with my parents about it, more so
as we move on, but they had no idea what
to do.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Well, they were I guess what's interesting is I feel
like they were just masking it in different ways, right,
because the pain was still there for them. Obviously different
different kinds of pain, but pain is something that universally
we feel when people just respond to it in different ways.
And I think it's really interesting because, like, for example,
our suicide stats here as majority middle aged men, people
(31:54):
who have never been able to deal with or understand
emotions or how you know. And so I think it's
interesting when you then look at a teenage girl who
is self harming because of the pain and just trying
to let it out and go, that's attention seeking. It's
like they're just trying to deal with the stuff so
that they don't end up you know. Yes, it's yeah, yeah,
(32:17):
I've gone off topic completely, but it's just something I've
seen a lot of on social media especially, and obviously
there is a lot of conversations and concern around it
becoming a trend among young people. But still someone's got
to be hurting to do that.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:33):
Yeah, but then you have half the problem with social
media being half the problem.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, because social media, you know, it reaches such a
huge and it's huge. Aren't you so glad that you
didn't have social media when you were going through this?
Speaker 3 (32:49):
Social media?
Speaker 2 (32:50):
This is going to make me sound like a like
a really really old Pelican. But social media was like
just sort of picking up when I was in high
school Bebo, yes, yes, miss in missing.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Yeah, like I look now and there are kids that
are posting in psych wards and that you know, I'm
like me and my co founder Gin you know, we've
often talked about the fact that we're so glad that
we didn't have this instant social media connection back then
because like, oh my gosh, that stuff is documented forever,
like you can't get rid of it, and it's like
(33:29):
it's wild. But anyway, you were a teacher and you
became a counselor. I have so many tangents. Also, my
little ADHD brain is like this and yeah, like.
Speaker 2 (33:43):
Yeah, no, but I get what you mean because like, yeah,
on the TikTok, I WoT other TikTok on the TikTok
showing my age because I watch and there is this
watch ye.
Speaker 3 (33:55):
No anyway, yes, so and so when I left high.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
School, I think I worked for my parents for about
a year and then I just I actually just decided
to become an early childhood teacher.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Randomly. I love that for you.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
I just randomly decided to become very but again, impulsively
and impulsivity, it's just another one. And I am really
really impulsively too.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
I'm like, yeah, that's why they thought I had BPD
for so long, because my impulsivity was through the roof,
like through the roof, and now it's turned into like
impulsivity buying and by impulsive buying is terrible, but that's
that's again, that's the same thing.
Speaker 3 (34:42):
Yeah, like.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Moneyw like with debt and stuff like that, that's just
another thing because you just like I like if you
like with mood changing, like mood switching can be very
big thing as well, So your moods will switch and
like being on a high, Like it's very rare for
(35:08):
me to be very high, Like I can be happy,
but it's very rare for me to be hyper.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
I'll be hyper very rarely.
Speaker 1 (35:18):
But if I'm hyper, it's not a good thing. It's
not a good thing.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
But anyway, yeah, so I did EC and I did
this is probably a good example of impulsivity.
Speaker 3 (35:33):
So I did.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Distance learning for my diploma in early childhood and so
I did that and then upgraded it to for a
year to my degree in early childhood and in between
that became did my full registration, which takes a couple
of years to be fully registered as a teacher, and
(36:00):
then did my postgraduate diploma in early childhood education, went
over seas and taught in England and became an assistant
principal in a primary school.
Speaker 1 (36:16):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Yeah, and I loved that experience but burnt myself out
doing it. Wouldn't change it for the world because it
was a really great experience, met some amazing people, but
my mental health took a toll. Got diagnosed with BPD.
(36:39):
But I didn't get diagnosed with BPD because I went
to England. I got diagnosed with BPD because.
Speaker 1 (36:45):
You went to Russia.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
I went to Russia.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
H So, like you know, I went to Russia and
you know, you know all of this kind of stuff. So, like,
you know, all of that happened.
Speaker 3 (37:03):
And so.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
I decided that I came home from England and I
was a shell of a human. I also came home
in the height of COVID, so shell of a human
with BPD. So this is an interesting experience for someone
who's you know, had a mental breakdown with BPD in
(37:28):
the middle of COVID.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
Oh, you would have to gone to isolation. Yeah, I
had to do that too.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
Oh it was very interesting.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
So this was before you had to book, right, so
they just put you in a hotel. So I was
very lucky because this was also the point where I
also like, I couldn't be I didn't like. I'm also
quite sounds very strange. Most people think it's very strange
because when I meet people people, because I'm quite an
(38:01):
introverted person, but people are like, I don't get that
vibe from you. I get quite an extroverted vibe, and
I'm just like, I don't really like a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (38:09):
I'm I quite like my own little bubble.
Speaker 2 (38:13):
But I'm like, I'm quite a socially anxious kind of person,
and so I don't like. At the time, being touched
by anybody was quite a bit of an issue. I'm
pretty good about it now, Yeah, I'm good.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
I'm quite good about it now.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Hugging is fine now, but like back then, to touch anybody,
I would be like this, wow, now absolutely fine, So
absolutely fine. But so going into managed isolation, I was like,
please dear God, don't fly me down to christ Church,
because that's what they were doing. Yes, like you fly
(38:51):
into Auckland and I just flew from England that if
they needed to, they'd fly you down to christ Church.
We need to talk about this experience for a moment,
because I feel like I haven't seen anything about like
when you land in the country when this was happening
and you don't get to get your bags and you're
greeted by like the Navy.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Was this your experience.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Yet, so they come and get you off the plane.
So they come and because I had a layover in Singapore.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Yeah, and so this is how much.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
My parents there's such little delights because they paid for
me to go premium economy just to try and see
if it would make my experience just a little bit
if the airline would take care of me a little
bit better, just for my mental health. And there were
like four other people within premium economy, so it was
quite nice because that was but it worked out even
(39:48):
better because like there was like no one on the
flight anyway. Yeah yeah, but they like come and get
you off the flight, put you in an area, leave
you there and then take your way again.
Speaker 1 (40:00):
But with like with the guards and with that, like
it was I remember when I landed and just being like, oh,
my gosh, I feel like I've done something wrong, or
I'm like arriving in some crazy thing and then you
get on a bus and you don't know where you're going, yes,
and then you just arrive at a hotel. I hope
I've answered your questions correctly.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
What if I've answered them wrong, where are you going
to put me?
Speaker 1 (40:18):
I know, like I just oh, my gosh, and like
I I mean, I managed to turn mine into quite
I was unboxing all my food, which for some reason
blew up on TikTok. People were so like millions and
millions and millions of views of me unboxing my food
three times a day, and just like people were so
invested to the point that America, there was this news
(40:38):
piece that went out from some I don't even know
what it was claiming to be like getting the truth
of the news, and it was saying that all of
New Zealand was in a concentration camp, which, first of all,
the audacity of you to ever compare anything to that. Secondly,
oh my god, I'm sitting at a bed in a
hotel getting food delivered to me three times a day.
I can order a coffee, like.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
You know, I'm just chilling. How is it?
Speaker 1 (41:01):
How do you interesting comparison? But okay, I know, sorry,
we're still not at the point where you became a colt.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
No, that's fine, that's fine.
Speaker 1 (41:09):
I'm fine with that.
Speaker 2 (41:11):
But like that was fine because like I had the
exact same experience because they bust me to a hotel
which was fine.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
Four points on sheriton.
Speaker 1 (41:22):
Ah, how's that sedema?
Speaker 3 (41:23):
Ah? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (41:25):
This hotel had had a little walk a little area
where you could go downstairs once a day to walk around.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Couldn't I couldn't do that because I couldn't leave my room. Wow.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
So I left my room to do the coup the
two COVID tests yea horrible which I had to do,
which surprisingly one nostril was fine, second nostril and I think, yeah,
that was painful. I don't know why that was, but that, yeah,
that was interesting. But I couldn't leave.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
But when I.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Left, because I was so it was I had mental
health nurses ringing me every other day to check up
on me, as well as the nurse that was based
at the hotel ringing me every day to check up
on me. The mental health nurse was advising me whether
I needed to take any additional medication to check up
on me, and then I actually had one of the
(42:22):
Navy women.
Speaker 3 (42:25):
She came up and escorted me.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Down to leave because that day Auckland went back into lockdown.
My parents don't live in Auckland. Who were coming to
get me because obviously I've moved back from England, I
don't have any way to live. I was going to
live with my parents. They live outside of Auckland, like
two hours outside of Auckland.
Speaker 1 (42:46):
Oh, and put the barrier up. Yeah, so a bus
had to drive us outside to Mercer.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
So actually someone came up to get me to bring
me down because I couldn't physically get myself down because
I was so overwhelmed. She'd put me, she had to
put me in a different elevator because COVID, but she
took my bag, she got me sorted with, like she
did all my paperwork. She'd take me around to the
(43:12):
different places that I needed to go and got me
on the bus because I couldn't do it.
Speaker 3 (43:18):
So it was just.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Different experiences that supported me the way through. I don't
know how we got onto this part of the story,
but how you became a counselor.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
She was like I don't even know was it well,
you know, because obviously you've had all these experiences and
I think, I don't know if this is where you're
going with that as well, But having all of those
people that were helping you along the way, that was that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
So they supported me all the way through, even though
I was a shell of a person.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
Yeah, I thought I didn't want to be a teacher anymore.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
I definitely set myself to the point where I had
burnt myself out. It wasn't something I wanted to do.
I think I just had set myself to that point.
I just finished high school, just did it.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
And then became an assistant principle.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
So I just and then I really sat down and
thought about it. It took me about six months to
put myself back together again. Yeah, and I decided that
being a counselor was something that I wanted to give back. Yeah,
you know, I also wanted to highlight the fact that
(44:25):
you can live with mental health, you can live with BPD,
and you can do anything. You are going to have
roadblocks because God forbid. You know, I have some physical
health issues at the moment that are causing me some issues,
and at the moment I have when I go into
(44:48):
the hospital. I don't disclose my BPD at the moment
until the very end when they asked me what my
medications are, and then they asked me why I am
on those medications.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Then I tell them I.
Speaker 2 (45:03):
Have BPD, but they've already treated me medical for my
physical attributes at tributes.
Speaker 1 (45:09):
That's so helpful that you were diagnosed overseas for that,
because I know in New Zealand that a lot of
the times it comes up on your hospital records they
type your name.
Speaker 2 (45:17):
Yeah, Well, it already comes up on my hospital records
now because I've been back for four years and because
I've had so many like I'm very much into the
system with psychiatrists and things like that, so it's very
much intertwined with within the hospital systems. But I think
definitely that it was yeah, yeah, diagnosed overseas lot.
Speaker 1 (45:41):
I think, Man, I'm so thankful that you've been willing
to sit down with me twice and a short spent
a time. We did the last ones if you nicey
long ago. But like I said at the beginning, I
just think you represent Hope so well and just the
way that you've been able to go and create this
career and to be able to do it, to be
(46:03):
helping people and to show people that you can live
a successful life. And I love what you just said
before you can do anything, like you can absolutely do anything.
And we've talked about their advice that you know you
have people with BPD and the people around BPD. And
there's one last question that I want to say before
I let you go. I don't want to let you
go because I could talk to you for hours, but
also I'm going to get told off if I do that.
(46:24):
But I want to know I asked this to every person.
This podcast is called Hope is Real. What does the
word hope mean to you?
Speaker 2 (46:33):
I think hope can encapsulate so many different things. But
hope that life doesn't end when you think it does.
Hope that you have got so much more life to live,
(47:00):
and that just because you may have a diagnosis of BPD,
you know there is still hope.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
I love that. I love that. Thank you so much
for coming on.
Speaker 3 (47:13):
The podcast, appreciate having me.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
Oh my gosh, let's do this again twelve more times.
So much need to discuss.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
I could talk till the cows come on.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
That's the problem. No, Thank you so much for coming on.
You're so welcome. Thank you for having me well that
you have it, guys, thank you so much for staying
and for listening to this episode. And like I've said
at the beginning, and I always say, if anything in
this episode that's been talked about has brought anything up
for you, you feel like you need to talk to someone,
then please remember and know that the bravest thing that
(47:43):
you can do right now is to talk to someone,
is to ask for help, whether that's from a friend,
a family member, or if you don't know who to
talk to, then if you live in Altiola here you
can call or text one seven three seven at any
time to talk to a trained counselor. Or if you
live overseas, go to dubdubdub dot the Voices of Hope
dot org for a list of international helplines. Remember that
(48:07):
no matter what it is that you're facing, no matter
what it is that you're going through, that in all things,
hope is real and change is possible. I'll see you
guys next week
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