September 24, 2024 • 45 mins
*TW* This content discusses topics such as suicide and mental distress.
Jazz talks with Dr Courtney Tracy about living with Borderline Personality Disorder and how she has found hope in helping other people through her training and social media advocacy.
Hope Is Real is a Podcast to help you feel a little less alone, a bit more inspired, and a lot more hopeful. Join Jazz Thornton every week as she speaks to empowering and inspiring people from around the world and shares their stories to normalise the way we talk about mental health in society.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Zitim Podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
People do not understand the severity of emotional distress when
it comes to this disorder. You are who you are,
You go through what you go through, and there's things
that you can control, and there's things that you cannot.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
And the wisdom comes from knowing the difference.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
Hi, everyone, Welcome back to Hope It's All the podcast,
Season three. We're at another episode, another week. I hope
You've had a good week. I am so insanely excited
about today's episode. I genuinely think this is one of
my favorite episodes that I've ever recorded, one of my
favorite interviews that I've ever done.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I will give you pre warning. I cried a bit.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
In this episode, purely because of how beautiful this guest
was and her articulation of things. Doctor Courtney Tracy. She's
a psychologist from America. You may have seen her on TikTok,
But not only is she a psychologist, she's a psychologist
who lives with borderline personality disorder. Now, if you yourself
have borderline personality disorder, or you know anyone that does,
(01:06):
you know that it is one of the most difficult,
one of the most debilitating, one of the most misunderstood
mental illnesses. And the way that Courtney was able to
kind of talk about her experience as someone who lives
with that has so incredible. It's so heartfelt, it's so
eye opening, it's so beautiful, and it's also painful, and
(01:29):
that's the reality of living with BPD. And I really
hope that this episode, if you are someone who lives
with BPD, that this is an episode that gives you hope,
that helps you feel understood, that helps you feel heard,
but also that she has this but has been able
to go and live a full career. She learns how
to manage and kind of deal with her day to
(01:49):
day life. I was lucky enough to meet doctor Courtney
when I was over in the US, and we recorded
a kind of interview thing that we did for Voices
of Hope and just.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Here aring her.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Then I was like, man, I need to get you
on this podcast.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
I need you to be able to talk to these
incredible listeners and to be able to share the story
even widelier that's not even a word, even wider, but
I genuinely believe that you're gonna get a lot out
of this episode. So please, if you can stick around
for it again. If you need to take a break
in anytime, we'll talk to someone that's fully okay do
that at any point in time. This episode does talk
(02:26):
about suicide attempts, it does talk about self harm, and
it does talk about both autism and obviously borderline personality
as well, So please stick around. This episode is a
good one, and coming up right after this, you'll hear
doctor Courtney Tracy's story. Doctor Courtney Tracy, Welcome to Hope
(02:47):
is real.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
First of all, how are you doing?
Speaker 5 (02:51):
Then?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Well, thank you so much for having me. I am
doing better than I have been for the last eighteen months.
But I would have to say that I think there's
still quite a right way with lots of exciting things
and healing to come.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I love how honest that answer is.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
I think in New Zealand we have this tendency to
kind of almost script like, hey, how are you?
Speaker 6 (03:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Good? Thanks? How you move on with your day? And
people don't ever.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Actually answer the question honestly, it's just kind of like
scripted response, move on. And this whole podcast and conversation
is literally around being open and honest and having these conversations.
And the last time I saw you was in LA.
We were filming a campaign for voices and you were
very pregnant at the time.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yes, I was very pregnant and it was so hot
that day.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
I felt like I was dying.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
It was so hot, and I had come from New
Zealand winter as well, and I was like, I don't
know what's going on. It was boiling in LA. But
obviously kind of a lots has happened. You've had your kid, Yes,
I have.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
How was it experience?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I mean, well, the interview of that we had prior
the pregnancy was a struggle, right, I became very depressed, etc.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I'm not sure if we'll get into that on here.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
But now that she is her own being, she's almost
eight months old.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I get emotional immediately because.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
That pregnancy, my second, was so different than my first,
and I didn't expect to feel so wildly out of control,
even though I lived most of my life in that state,
I didn't see this coming, and so the pregnancy was
horrible and the birth was pretty horrible. But I am
(04:47):
joyful now and when she laughs, I'm so happy. And
she loves me and I love her, and she will
always be a testament to healing and to the work,
and I'm excited for when she grows up and learns
how much it took for me to become her mother
(05:10):
and how proud and happy I am of that.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
That's really beautiful. I really love that.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
And I mean just seeing you in la and even
kind of hearing your experience after we did that interview
and kind of being like, oh my gosh, like this
so much almost is.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
So much more.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
And I think it's so important that everyone knows that
recovery is not linear, Like it's not just kind of
you walk up one mountain, boom it's done.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
It's such a process.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
And I think your life and the way that you're
able to articulate articulate that and be so honest as
such a kind of evidence to that. And I would
love to kind of jump back and well, I definitely
want to talk further about your experience with this pregnancy,
because it's a very big thing that I think a
lot of mothers go through, and especially with the past
(05:58):
history that you've had.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
But what was your life like growing up?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
That's a big question and one I've answered a lot
over the last five years, and you know, it's changed
over the last five years, and What I mean by
that is I've healed a lot becoming a public figure.
Maybe we can talk about that one day. I wonder
if that's happened for you, well ups and downs, But
it's I mean having borderline personality disorder, which is a
(06:26):
difficult disorder that for one encompasses really not knowing who
you are. Growing up, I had no idea who I was,
and then becoming so known to millions of people, it
forced me to develop myself more in different ways. But
that was interesting because typically when somebody develops a sense
(06:47):
of self, it's in childhood. It's in their upbringing and
the way that they're mirrored by their parents and the
way that they form hobbies and opinions through their peer friendships.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
And growing up for me.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Was really difficult because I grew up with a single
mom on welfare and food stamps, with an adult uncle
who who has really severe autism, grandparents who had a
fifties relationship, and I was exposed to a lot of
mental health issues and substance use. And because of my
(07:24):
neurodivergency mixed with my borderline, that's what I became. I
became someone obsessed with substances and someone who was obsessed
with psychology, but in the way where it told me
why everybody else was messed up around me. I never
used psychology to figure out how I could heal myself.
(07:44):
And the last five years have really allowed me to
reflect on my childhood in ways where I feel like
I'm the parent I needed while becoming a parent to
my own kids, I don't know that was a bit reflective,
but it was hard. It was hard growing up. There
wasn't money and there wasn't stability, and it took a
(08:07):
long time to.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Crawl out of that.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Just hearing you say becoming the parent that you needed
and becoming just a person that you needed makes me
so emotional, Like especially I think someone that has borderline
personality disorder one is something that is so insanely stigmatized,
and also a lot of people just fail to understand
that that is something that is I mean, you're the
(08:32):
professional here, but its majority at the time rooted in
childhood trauma, right, and stuff that was out of your
control that is not your fault. And to kind of
go through this whole process and then become the person
that you needed, it's just it's so beautiful that you've
been able to take that pain and that misunderstanding and
(08:55):
all of the stigmas that come with it and the confusion,
and it's one of the most painful mental illnesses to
live with because of how stigmatized it is. What do
you think were like the first symptoms for you that
you had borderline personality disorder?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Well, you know, I'm still labeling some of the experiences
that I've had in childhood as borderline symptoms the more
I reflect and look back on it. But you know,
self harm was a big thing for me growing up,
but I used sex as self harm. I'm afraid of
(09:35):
physical pain, but I'm not I'm afraid of my body
being hurt, but I'm not afraid of my body causing
my heart to be hurt. Like that just doesn't It
didn't for a long time mean anything to me my body,
and so I used that to harm myself. But there
were instances of really intense binging substances, not being able
(09:57):
to maintain stable relationships, lacking as sense of self and identity,
having really intense anger control issues. It felt like I
was the Tasmanian devil and I was so incredibly destructive.
(10:17):
But what was interesting growing up was that there was
this little space inside of me that was quiet, calm
and scared, like so deeply afraid, and I masked that
with the substances and the anger, and it was so
clear that something was wrong, but I didn't have someone
(10:40):
to tell me that, or to actually, I mean, I
knew that, but I didn't have someone to tell me
there's something you can do about it. I didn't feel
seen growing up, and so I thought for a while
that this was just me acting out. But it wasn't
just a conscious choice to behave the way I was behaving.
(11:02):
It was a wiring of my brain and my body
and my mind that I didn't know could be potentially
inescapable if I don't do if I didn't do something
about it. Substance use, impulsivity, really intense anger would be
the main things.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
During that the earlier kind of I guess teenage years
were there moments where I guess, the specifically within the
borderline personality and kind of everything else going on in
your life where I don't want to use word exploded,
but it kind of felt like, because I know that
with specifically with borderline, your emotions are going like this, right,
(11:43):
Like I remember reading that it's like someone living with
third degree burns, Like the smallest touch feels so painful.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
What were moments like.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
When it did feel so unbearably painful for you?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
You know, I've been trying to find words to describe
that feeling. What's interesting is that if I say something
like if you know, you know, then like the people
that know no, but to try to describe something so
incredibly devastating, it's like, hm, Well, the outward impulses can
seem like explosions, but what's happening inside is like, I mean,
(12:25):
what's coming to my head is imagine that where you're
standing on the earth, on the ground, your feet are
on the ground. Suddenly the whole rest of the world
comes apart from that surface that your feeder on, and
it has every person you've ever loved on it, and
then you just see them floating away into space.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Like that's the feeling.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Of loneliness that encompasses borderline personality disorder and getting emotional
because people do not understand the severity of emotional distress
when it comes to this disorder, and so.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
It feels like.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
The end of the universe, which is why the behaviors
seem like you they they're acting as though someone's trying
to kill them. They're in their worst possible state, in
the most danger they could ever imagine, in the most scarce,
isolative place possible. And the sad part is that the
(13:38):
stigma solidifies that feeling.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
I the amount of young people that I see daily
that struggle with this disorder that just is so stigmatized,
And I wrote about it actually my first book that
when I was younger, I was given the diagnosis of
borderline personality disorder, and then as I got older, they
(14:07):
realized that it was actually for me, it was a
mix of the ADHD and PTSD because the symptoms were similar.
But what I realized was that because I had this
diagnosis and it was on my hospital files, whenever I
went into the emergency room for a physical thing, I
would be treated as if it was something going on
(14:28):
mentally because this label was on my files and for
people having to just live with that, and I'm like,
I remember it happened. I had just won Young New
Zealander of the Year for literally the journey that I
took and been able to be well again, and I
(14:48):
had this doctor who didn't believe anything because he saw
my mental health history. And that's for me who had
just kind of been like, oh, she's got through it,
And I'm like, I can't even for people that live
with this and already feel like a burden and feel
(15:08):
unlovable and feel all of these massive emotions to then
just have this added stigma on top of it that,
like you said, solidifies these beliefs that you already have.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Is so now I'm going to cry. It's so heart
wrenching that people have to live like that and it
should never never be the case.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
What would you want to say to people that are
listening to this that have borderline personality disorder?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
What do you want to say to them?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I know that there's more to you. I know you're
a human being, and when I think about you, I
think about how the pain is a system in your
brain and everything else is you. And I think that
(16:06):
that's really important, because when someone sees the label, or
someone sees the physical form of the person that has
the label, they're not seen as a person with hobbies
and dreams and favorite movies, and they're dances that embarrass
(16:28):
them and the people that they've lost. And I see
it all, and I think that if no one else
ever says that to you. Please know that I am
somewhere in the world and my perception of you is
what you wish it could be from others. So please,
(16:50):
I'm not the only person that will see you, So
please believe me.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I am. I think I'm so emotional because I.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
See this pain so deeply of people that live with this,
and I've seen so many people lose their lives because
they don't ever hear what you've just said, and they
don't ever experience the people in their worlds showing them
(17:31):
what you've just said. And I think it's I mean,
we've tried for the last three seasons of this podcast
to find someone who could talk about borderline personality disorder
from this one.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I think you're so.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Incredibly articulate and graceful, and you've just been through hell
with it.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
But to be able to sit there and.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Articulate the way that you do and talk to these
people the way that you do is something that I'm
so grateful.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
That the world has, and I know that the world
was very.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Close to not having that with you, which also makes
me freaking emotional, Like you're here and people get to
understand that there is hope because you exist. And when
we did the Change your Mind into View, you were
talking about a moment that was really really bad for
you where you kind of were like you just didn't
(18:33):
see any way out.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Would you be willing to talk about that?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Definitely, and thank you for everything that you've said.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Creating a family.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Is all I've ever wanted, and I'm a very ambitious woman.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
I tend to pile on.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Really massive projects all at once, like opening up an
entire treatment center, completing IVF and having a baby, completing
a doctorate, and my licensure hours for my masters.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I did all of that at the.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Same time in twenty seventeen successfully, So I tried it
again in twenty twenty three, where I did IVF, to
have a baby, opened up a treatment center, and wrote
my debut book. The problem was I am also autistic,
(19:33):
and as we age, our sensitivity levels increase, our energy
levels decrease naturally, not all the time, and I am
not the same person. I've also been through a lot
more trauma since twenty seventeen. But when I became pregnant,
(19:54):
actually I should say I became pregnant three days after
being diagnosed autistic. So for a year prior to that,
I was struggling significantly. I was already really depressed and anxious.
And being depressed and anxious when you are a mental
health public figure, I'm sure you know, is very overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
What do you show?
Speaker 3 (20:20):
What do you not show? What has a lesson in it?
For people?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
What's just cathartic messiness? And I didn't know my place online.
And when I was working to open my treatment center,
it wasn't going well because I was so anxious and depressed.
And when I became pregnant, I lost all sense of control.
(20:45):
My body was no longer mine, and I struggled with
a sense of self and mind.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
So I was trapped.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I felt trapped, And after I received the diagnosis, my
husband and I began to get into a lot of
arguments because we were trying to figure out if my
anxiety was simply anxiety, was a trauma response, was my
borderline acting up? Was my autistic difficulties interpersonally? And I
(21:21):
needed so much. I needed the most I've ever needed
in my life. And I've been with my husband for
eighteen years, nineteen years, and he's an amazing human being.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
But we didn't know what to do.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
And we were down at the beach one day and
we got into a really big argument, and you know,
I said, when are you going to stop judging me?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Now? Humans judge there's nothing we can do about it.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And we were writing a book about this exact thing,
and he said, I'm always going to judge you, and
he meant it mean, and we had just in a
section on how humans will judge no matter what there's
nothing we can do about it.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
So he wasn't trying to trigger me, but it did. Didn't.
I wasn't honest with him about where I was at.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
So he got out of the car and he went
down to the beach with our son and I stayed
in the car and I had panic attacks and breakdowns,
and I was pregnant. I think I was three or
four months pregnant, and I just needed a pause, like
(22:32):
really badly shaking, hyperventilating. So I called my best friend,
who I never call.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
We talked through words that are written, she answered. She
talked to me for an hour, and I kept playing
in my head like this is what I'm gonna do.
I can't handle this anymore. I'm not helping people online.
My body's not mine. The business isn't working. There's no
way I can write the book.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Like the thoughts, the thoughts.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
That make you believe it's not going to end, or
the pain she talked me out of it.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
I kind of like that.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I'm talking about this slow because when we had this
last interview, I was breaking, really breaking down, crying. I
feel like I'm a little more healed from it now.
So I did not do what I was going to
do that day, and it's been fifteen months since that day.
(23:41):
I cannot believe it's been that long. The day that
my daughter was born, I.
Speaker 7 (23:50):
Was so happy I stayed. I really can't believe that
I almost didn't. And you know, I've.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Seen people have active suicidality as a clinician often, and
I've dealt with passive suicidality for decades.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
It's never been active.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
And I never quite understood the joy that came from
knowing that you didn't do it.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Until now.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
And I just want everybody to know that feeling. Everyone struggling.
It's a really hard feeling to believe exists, but it does,
and it's fascinating and it's better than you could ever imagine.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
I think this is the first time this season that
I've really cried in an interview.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
But it's.
Speaker 8 (24:54):
Again just sitting here and seeing you and even seeing
you now compared to last year when we down, and
just the difference already in you, and just this light
that has turned on of I'm here, Like I'm so
glad that I'm here.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
I mean, I know that even in that last interview,
I was, you know, talking about again how phenomenal, phenomenal
it is that you are so willing to speak about
these things. But I really truly hope you understand the
gravity of the path that you were laying for so
many people that are struggling with this that feel like
(25:36):
they're the only ones that feel like there is something
just acutely wrong with them, and that this is it
that they get to those points of this will never change,
this pain will never end, and you today are just
such an example and of hope that these people so
(25:56):
desperately need. And I'm so incredibly thankful that you stayed.
I'm so thankful you picked up the phone that day
and that you were able to be here to bring
your daughter into this world and to refine your strength again.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
And like you said, like recovery is a.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
Journey, right, Like there's still there's so much healing to go,
and I'm on that same like, there's still so much.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Healing that I have to do.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
But to get to that position of being thankful that
you are still alive, that is the moment that is
so worth fighting for.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I yeah, I just oh my.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Gosh, Courtney, you are such a phenomenal human and I
would love to know what the process has been like
for you from that day that you made that phone
call to now being able to sit here and go
I'm so happy I'm here.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
What was that procees? What happened?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I struggled for quite a while after that day. You know,
we had the interview a few months after, and then
I watched that interview after it was posted, and then
I stopped all social media, and I remember you reached
out and you were like, excuse me, are you okay?
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Did we do something like? Are you what's wrong?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
And seeing myself explain the scariest moment of my life
in the way that I described it made me feel
like I had something special to offer and needed to
take care of myself so that it didn't go anywhere.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
So thank you for that interview. It really changed my.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Life, and I decided to try to do my treatment center.
After I saw that interview, I had shut it down completely.
I was working with a ghost writer for my debut book,
and I decided that sh she couldn't write my story
(28:16):
the way that I could, so I let her keep
the money and I started all over from scratch.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
And had my baby.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
So I guess what happened was I decided to live
and to exist and to give it my all. And
so I took a break and I've been slowly coming back.
My business is open, my book cover was just revealed.
My baby's turning eight months old, and I think I've
(28:51):
just told myself the truth.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
You are who you are.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
You go through what you go through, and there's things
that you can control, and there's things that you cannot,
and the wisdom comes from knowing the difference.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Yeah, So that's what my entire book is about.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I wrote about what it means to feel wildly out
of control, to have a diagnosis where people think you're
insane and evil, and to be stable and good through
it all.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
When does this book come out?
Speaker 3 (29:27):
The book comes.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Out March eleventh, twenty twenty five and what's it called.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
It's called Your.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Unconscious is Showing and the subtitle is take Control of
your life using the Twelve Steps of Consciousness.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Wow, oh my gosh.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
I everyone who is listening to this, I please whenever
this comes out for pre order, pre order it.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
I remember doing it.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Was your podcast so long ago, Like literally, I think
we both had kind of really well babies in the
social media space, like we're just kind of in those
beginning stages, and you had your podcast was about that
concept of the unconscious, and I think it was the
first time that I had really thought about it in
(30:14):
the way that you were articulating and began to be like,
oh my gosh, like there's so many things of like
these beliefs and behaviors that have developed that I'm just
so in my mind, I'm like, this is everything that's
wrong with me. But it was like these things developed
at some point, and my brain has just been working
over time to protect itself without me even knowing.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
And I'm really really.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
Excited to read this book, and I'm so glad that
you wrote it yourself. I just think it makes it
so much more powerful, especially because of the voice that
you are and I know I've said it twelve million
times in this interview, and I'll say it twelve million
more times again because I just don't know if you
realize how special you are and how many people your
(31:04):
voice and your story and your openness just gives them
that hope. And I also really love that you are
a woman who is living with borderline and with autism
and your experiences that you've had, and you've got your
doctorate and you are opening treatment centers and you've written
(31:25):
a book like you are the proof that your illness
is not your identity and that you can live a
full life, even though the statistics and the things that
you see online about the fact that this will never
go away because it makes people lose hope, right there's
no treatment necessarily or pill to magic pilled it to
(31:47):
change it, so people feel hopeless.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
And I just your life is.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
So evident that that's just this gues It gets so
hard at times, and it is and ebbs and flows,
but my goodness, you.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Survive every day.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
You survive, and you live, and you write and you
create places people to get help.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Like you're just such a phenomenal person.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
And I will tell you that till the day I die,
because you're just You're.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Phenomenal, and I would love you if you could.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
I think kind of well, we've talked about a lot,
and what we know to be true is that borderline
personality is such a misunderstood illness, right, and I think
for those who know someone in their immediate life who
has it, it can be so confusing to understand the
behaviors and the reactions and the responses, and kind of
hard to get out of. I think attention seeking is
(32:43):
often a stigma that is attached to this as well.
I would love for you to be able to articulate
to people who have a loved one with borderline who
don't understand from this lived experience point of view. Can
you tell them the things that their loved ones want
them to know, well, you know, wish for them to know,
(33:06):
but maybe just don't know how to articulate it as
they're in the middle of it.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
That's such a good question.
Speaker 5 (33:14):
We're sorry, it's very hard, and we did not ask
for this, and we know that you didn't either.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
We hear you, and we know that you love us,
and we know that we can be hurtful and we
need your help. When people act in any way. There's
a process that happens internally.
Speaker 6 (33:53):
The way that our body feels triggers the thoughts that
our brains have, and the thoughts that our brains have
create the stories.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
That we tell ourselves.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
We were not taught how our body works. We were
not taught how our brain works. We were not taught
how our mind works. What we were taught is that
we deserve and cause pain. And when that is all
you know, you tend not to do the things that
(34:29):
you would do if you knew more. So hold our hand,
set your boundaries, and please give us a chance.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
I Oh, I don't even know what to say, except
that just it was both so beautiful and so heart
wrenching at the same time and so important. So thank
you for taking the time to really think about that
(35:13):
and to be able to articulate the things that so
many can't and don't know how to. Your voice is
so important and has just been able to clarify and
almost just pull back the curtains to show what it
(35:34):
is really like.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
In a way that I know a lot of people
want to be able to express but can't. And I
would really love to ask you this last question before I.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Let you go as much. I mean, I want to
talk to you all day, every day. I just this
so much wisdom that comes from you. This podcast is
called Hope Is Real and I asked this to everyone,
but I really want to ask this to you. With
everything that you've shared and all of your experiences, what
(36:11):
does the word hope mean to you?
Speaker 2 (36:15):
You asked me this in the last interview, and I
didn't have an answer at the time, and then I
went and looked it up, was like, what is the
typical definition? And honestly, my mind just went shit. I
don't remember what it said, but I've been thinking about
(36:39):
that since you asked. What's coming up for me is
that I'm full of hope in a way that I
never have been before.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
I think for me, hope is knowing.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
That there's a way out, that you're not alone, and
that things do get better. I'd argue to say that
hope feels like love, because when I think of hope
and the feeling that it gives me, it's the same
(37:19):
feeling that my husband gives me. And as you can
probably tell, i'm autistic in borderline right now when I'm
a therapist and I'm still trying to decipher what love
and hope feel like, you know, I do. I think
I'm going to go with that, like, because hope is real,
(37:39):
and what's real is that things can change and you're
not alone and things get better. Yeah, I feel like
I'm coming till it's like I have an answer to it.
Maybe I want it to be more succinct, but I
think what I find fascinating is that such a simple question,
for such an articulate person can be such a stop sign,
(38:00):
and maybe that means I have more hope to find.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
I also think that.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
What I'm the person who is sitting here on zoom
in front of me right now, you and your life
right now is the very definition of hope. I think
that knowing your story and from even from the last interview.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
To now, and the fact that.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
You're still here and you are speaking the way that
you are, you represent hope. And I think that's that's
why I really and I know that I did ask
you that in the last interview, and just like I
said right at the beginning, this light has really turned
on in you that you can see and this kind
(38:47):
of grit of I'm going to stay and I'm going
to be here no matter what, and.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
You're the way that you just are.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
And yeah, I just I think that you carry hope
wherever you are and with every word that you have
spoken on this podcast, hope has been there. And I
think that, yeah, like you said, hope is a journey
that maybe there's definitely always more hope to find. But
(39:19):
I hope that you hope. I hope that you leave
this interview.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Really like, I really want you to.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
Understand that, like you you to me right now, this
is hope, Like this is you look at your your
eight month old daughter.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
That is hope. Yeah, Like it's the fact that Yeah,
I mean I could go on and on and on,
and I mean I really I.
Speaker 4 (39:47):
Need people to be able to get this book when
it comes out.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
I just think that the wisdom that you have is just.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
So so needed in this world. And I mean, how
can people find you on the socials as well?
Speaker 8 (40:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (40:04):
You Well, my website is the Truthdoctor dot com and
you can pre order my books there.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Now, okay, we.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Will put a link up on both in the show
notes of this but also on our page when this
interview comes up, So please everyone go order it.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Thank you, And then my socials on TikTok, Instagram and
YouTube and snapchat and LinkedIn.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Are the Truth Doctor as well?
Speaker 2 (40:29):
And for the pre order, you can do that anywhere
you can pre order books. I'll get better at that soon.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Wait. Can I just ask where did the name the
Truth Doctor come from?
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Well, the name the Truth Doctor came from. Actually I
write about it in the book. The year that my
son was turning one, I was finishing my doctorate and
I was finishing my hours to become a licensed clinician.
I went through a major family trauma publicly in front
of my whole city as a treatment center owner and
(41:02):
a therapist. It was a really big deal, and I
started drowning myself in the stigma of mental health and
substance use issues.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
And I caved. It was really bad.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
And then I decided that if someone was going to
come out and show that therapists can be human beings,
that human beings can struggle with mental health issues, therefore
so can therapist. If anyone was going to do that,
I wanted it to be me. So I talked to
my husband and I said, I'm going to make a
(41:36):
social media account and I'm going to tell it all
all the time. The full truth, all of it, all
my messiness, and he was like, okay, and I said,
what should I name myself? And he said, you should
name yourself the Truth doctor, because I've never met a
woman that couldn't hold back saying it exactly the way
(41:57):
that it is for the benefit of other people. And
if there isn't another definition of the truth, doctor, and
I don't know what is, so I made it the
Truth doctor, and I made my mission to tell my
truth to help other people tell theirs, and that that
is my method appealing.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I love that so much.
Speaker 4 (42:18):
And I'm just so thankful that you've taken the time
to come on this podcast and to chat with me
again for a second time. And I'm so glad that
you have because I just been able to just see
this growth from the last interview to this one is
just so beautiful. And I know that you're you're very
(42:38):
busy doing the twelve million things that you do, and
on top of it, you're a mind. I don't even
have kids, and I feel like I'm constantly scrambling with
the amount of stuff I'm doing. So thank you so
much for coming on. Is there any anything else that
you want to say before I let you go, you
can have a whole other hour. If you wire, I've
you you.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Just take the floor.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
I think I would just like to say that while
I can be really deep, I can also be really fun.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
And so I want people to know.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
That this or these very difficult conditions and disorders and
the healing process from them does not have to be
a drag or dreary or just feel like another nightmare
on top of the one you were trying to get
(43:37):
yourself out of. It can be fun and lighthearted and joyful.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
And that's the up and down that you've been talking about.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
And so just please keep that in mind to everyone listening,
Like when you find yourself on the path of healing
from borderline personality disorder and it just seems like it's
always always work, that probably means you're coming close to
it being a little fun. So stay in the game
(44:09):
and remember that I see you and you can see me.
Just come online and say.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
Hi, oh that's so beautiful. Hey, thank you so much
for coming on this podcast, and I hope that you
have a good rest of your evening because it is
now I know the time zone that we're.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
Yes, it is. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Jos thank you. Well do you have it?
Speaker 4 (44:33):
Guys, thank you so much for staying and for listening
to this episode. And like I've said at the beginning,
and I always say, if anything in this episode that's
been talked about has brought anything up for you, you
feel like you need to talk to someone, then please
remember and know that the bravest thing that you can
do right now is to talk to someone, is to
ask for help, whether that's from a friend, a family member,
(44:55):
or if you don't know who to talk to, then
if you live in Altaiola here you can call or
text one seven three seven at any time to talk
to a trained counselor. Or if you live overseas, go
to dubdubdub dot the Voices of Hope dot org for
a list of international helplines. Remember that no matter what
it is that you're facing, no matter what it is
that you're going through, that in all things, hope is
(45:18):
real and change as possible.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I'll see you guys next week
The Zitim Podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
People do not understand the severity of emotional distress when
it comes to this disorder. You are who you are,
You go through what you go through, and there's things
that you can control, and there's things that you cannot.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
And the wisdom comes from knowing the difference.
Speaker 4 (00:23):
Hi, everyone, Welcome back to Hope It's All the podcast,
Season three. We're at another episode, another week. I hope
You've had a good week. I am so insanely excited
about today's episode. I genuinely think this is one of
my favorite episodes that I've ever recorded, one of my
favorite interviews that I've ever done.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
I will give you pre warning. I cried a bit.
Speaker 4 (00:45):
In this episode, purely because of how beautiful this guest
was and her articulation of things. Doctor Courtney Tracy. She's
a psychologist from America. You may have seen her on TikTok,
But not only is she a psychologist, she's a psychologist
who lives with borderline personality disorder. Now, if you yourself
have borderline personality disorder, or you know anyone that does,
(01:06):
you know that it is one of the most difficult,
one of the most debilitating, one of the most misunderstood
mental illnesses. And the way that Courtney was able to
kind of talk about her experience as someone who lives
with that has so incredible. It's so heartfelt, it's so
eye opening, it's so beautiful, and it's also painful, and
(01:29):
that's the reality of living with BPD. And I really
hope that this episode, if you are someone who lives
with BPD, that this is an episode that gives you hope,
that helps you feel understood, that helps you feel heard,
but also that she has this but has been able
to go and live a full career. She learns how
to manage and kind of deal with her day to
(01:49):
day life. I was lucky enough to meet doctor Courtney
when I was over in the US, and we recorded
a kind of interview thing that we did for Voices
of Hope and just.
Speaker 3 (01:59):
Here aring her.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
Then I was like, man, I need to get you
on this podcast.
Speaker 4 (02:03):
I need you to be able to talk to these
incredible listeners and to be able to share the story
even widelier that's not even a word, even wider, but
I genuinely believe that you're gonna get a lot out
of this episode. So please, if you can stick around
for it again. If you need to take a break
in anytime, we'll talk to someone that's fully okay do
that at any point in time. This episode does talk
(02:26):
about suicide attempts, it does talk about self harm, and
it does talk about both autism and obviously borderline personality
as well, So please stick around. This episode is a
good one, and coming up right after this, you'll hear
doctor Courtney Tracy's story. Doctor Courtney Tracy, Welcome to Hope
(02:47):
is real.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
First of all, how are you doing?
Speaker 5 (02:51):
Then?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Well, thank you so much for having me. I am
doing better than I have been for the last eighteen months.
But I would have to say that I think there's
still quite a right way with lots of exciting things
and healing to come.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I love how honest that answer is.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
I think in New Zealand we have this tendency to
kind of almost script like, hey, how are you?
Speaker 6 (03:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (03:12):
Good? Thanks? How you move on with your day? And
people don't ever.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Actually answer the question honestly, it's just kind of like
scripted response, move on. And this whole podcast and conversation
is literally around being open and honest and having these conversations.
And the last time I saw you was in LA.
We were filming a campaign for voices and you were
very pregnant at the time.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
Yes, I was very pregnant and it was so hot
that day.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
I felt like I was dying.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
It was so hot, and I had come from New
Zealand winter as well, and I was like, I don't
know what's going on. It was boiling in LA. But
obviously kind of a lots has happened. You've had your kid, Yes,
I have.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
How was it experience?
Speaker 2 (03:57):
I mean, well, the interview of that we had prior
the pregnancy was a struggle, right, I became very depressed, etc.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
I'm not sure if we'll get into that on here.
Speaker 2 (04:08):
But now that she is her own being, she's almost
eight months old.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
I get emotional immediately because.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
That pregnancy, my second, was so different than my first,
and I didn't expect to feel so wildly out of control,
even though I lived most of my life in that state,
I didn't see this coming, and so the pregnancy was
horrible and the birth was pretty horrible. But I am
(04:47):
joyful now and when she laughs, I'm so happy. And
she loves me and I love her, and she will
always be a testament to healing and to the work,
and I'm excited for when she grows up and learns
how much it took for me to become her mother
(05:10):
and how proud and happy I am of that.
Speaker 1 (05:13):
That's really beautiful. I really love that.
Speaker 4 (05:15):
And I mean just seeing you in la and even
kind of hearing your experience after we did that interview
and kind of being like, oh my gosh, like this
so much almost is.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
So much more.
Speaker 4 (05:27):
And I think it's so important that everyone knows that
recovery is not linear, Like it's not just kind of
you walk up one mountain, boom it's done.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
It's such a process.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
And I think your life and the way that you're
able to articulate articulate that and be so honest as
such a kind of evidence to that. And I would
love to kind of jump back and well, I definitely
want to talk further about your experience with this pregnancy,
because it's a very big thing that I think a
lot of mothers go through, and especially with the past
(05:58):
history that you've had.
Speaker 1 (06:01):
But what was your life like growing up?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
That's a big question and one I've answered a lot
over the last five years, and you know, it's changed
over the last five years, and What I mean by
that is I've healed a lot becoming a public figure.
Maybe we can talk about that one day. I wonder
if that's happened for you, well ups and downs, But
it's I mean having borderline personality disorder, which is a
(06:26):
difficult disorder that for one encompasses really not knowing who
you are. Growing up, I had no idea who I was,
and then becoming so known to millions of people, it
forced me to develop myself more in different ways. But
that was interesting because typically when somebody develops a sense
(06:47):
of self, it's in childhood. It's in their upbringing and
the way that they're mirrored by their parents and the
way that they form hobbies and opinions through their peer friendships.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
And growing up for me.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Was really difficult because I grew up with a single
mom on welfare and food stamps, with an adult uncle
who who has really severe autism, grandparents who had a
fifties relationship, and I was exposed to a lot of
mental health issues and substance use. And because of my
(07:24):
neurodivergency mixed with my borderline, that's what I became. I
became someone obsessed with substances and someone who was obsessed
with psychology, but in the way where it told me
why everybody else was messed up around me. I never
used psychology to figure out how I could heal myself.
(07:44):
And the last five years have really allowed me to
reflect on my childhood in ways where I feel like
I'm the parent I needed while becoming a parent to
my own kids, I don't know that was a bit reflective,
but it was hard. It was hard growing up. There
wasn't money and there wasn't stability, and it took a
(08:07):
long time to.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Crawl out of that.
Speaker 4 (08:09):
Just hearing you say becoming the parent that you needed
and becoming just a person that you needed makes me
so emotional, Like especially I think someone that has borderline
personality disorder one is something that is so insanely stigmatized,
and also a lot of people just fail to understand
that that is something that is I mean, you're the
(08:32):
professional here, but its majority at the time rooted in
childhood trauma, right, and stuff that was out of your
control that is not your fault. And to kind of
go through this whole process and then become the person
that you needed, it's just it's so beautiful that you've
been able to take that pain and that misunderstanding and
(08:55):
all of the stigmas that come with it and the confusion,
and it's one of the most painful mental illnesses to
live with because of how stigmatized it is. What do
you think were like the first symptoms for you that
you had borderline personality disorder?
Speaker 2 (09:13):
Well, you know, I'm still labeling some of the experiences
that I've had in childhood as borderline symptoms the more
I reflect and look back on it. But you know,
self harm was a big thing for me growing up,
but I used sex as self harm. I'm afraid of
(09:35):
physical pain, but I'm not I'm afraid of my body
being hurt, but I'm not afraid of my body causing
my heart to be hurt. Like that just doesn't It
didn't for a long time mean anything to me my body,
and so I used that to harm myself. But there
were instances of really intense binging substances, not being able
(09:57):
to maintain stable relationships, lacking as sense of self and identity,
having really intense anger control issues. It felt like I
was the Tasmanian devil and I was so incredibly destructive.
(10:17):
But what was interesting growing up was that there was
this little space inside of me that was quiet, calm
and scared, like so deeply afraid, and I masked that
with the substances and the anger, and it was so
clear that something was wrong, but I didn't have someone
(10:40):
to tell me that, or to actually, I mean, I
knew that, but I didn't have someone to tell me
there's something you can do about it. I didn't feel
seen growing up, and so I thought for a while
that this was just me acting out. But it wasn't
just a conscious choice to behave the way I was behaving.
(11:02):
It was a wiring of my brain and my body
and my mind that I didn't know could be potentially
inescapable if I don't do if I didn't do something
about it. Substance use, impulsivity, really intense anger would be
the main things.
Speaker 4 (11:21):
During that the earlier kind of I guess teenage years
were there moments where I guess, the specifically within the
borderline personality and kind of everything else going on in
your life where I don't want to use word exploded,
but it kind of felt like, because I know that
with specifically with borderline, your emotions are going like this, right,
(11:43):
Like I remember reading that it's like someone living with
third degree burns, Like the smallest touch feels so painful.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
What were moments like.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
When it did feel so unbearably painful for you?
Speaker 2 (11:57):
You know, I've been trying to find words to describe
that feeling. What's interesting is that if I say something
like if you know, you know, then like the people
that know no, but to try to describe something so
incredibly devastating, it's like, hm, Well, the outward impulses can
seem like explosions, but what's happening inside is like, I mean,
(12:25):
what's coming to my head is imagine that where you're
standing on the earth, on the ground, your feet are
on the ground. Suddenly the whole rest of the world
comes apart from that surface that your feeder on, and
it has every person you've ever loved on it, and
then you just see them floating away into space.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Like that's the feeling.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
Of loneliness that encompasses borderline personality disorder and getting emotional
because people do not understand the severity of emotional distress
when it comes to this disorder, and so.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
It feels like.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
The end of the universe, which is why the behaviors
seem like you they they're acting as though someone's trying
to kill them. They're in their worst possible state, in
the most danger they could ever imagine, in the most scarce,
isolative place possible. And the sad part is that the
(13:38):
stigma solidifies that feeling.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
I the amount of young people that I see daily
that struggle with this disorder that just is so stigmatized,
And I wrote about it actually my first book that
when I was younger, I was given the diagnosis of
borderline personality disorder, and then as I got older, they
(14:07):
realized that it was actually for me, it was a
mix of the ADHD and PTSD because the symptoms were similar.
But what I realized was that because I had this
diagnosis and it was on my hospital files, whenever I
went into the emergency room for a physical thing, I
would be treated as if it was something going on
(14:28):
mentally because this label was on my files and for
people having to just live with that, and I'm like,
I remember it happened. I had just won Young New
Zealander of the Year for literally the journey that I
took and been able to be well again, and I
(14:48):
had this doctor who didn't believe anything because he saw
my mental health history. And that's for me who had
just kind of been like, oh, she's got through it,
And I'm like, I can't even for people that live
with this and already feel like a burden and feel
(15:08):
unlovable and feel all of these massive emotions to then
just have this added stigma on top of it that,
like you said, solidifies these beliefs that you already have.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Is so now I'm going to cry. It's so heart
wrenching that people have to live like that and it
should never never be the case.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
What would you want to say to people that are
listening to this that have borderline personality disorder?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
What do you want to say to them?
Speaker 2 (15:41):
I know that there's more to you. I know you're
a human being, and when I think about you, I
think about how the pain is a system in your
brain and everything else is you. And I think that
(16:06):
that's really important, because when someone sees the label, or
someone sees the physical form of the person that has
the label, they're not seen as a person with hobbies
and dreams and favorite movies, and they're dances that embarrass
(16:28):
them and the people that they've lost. And I see
it all, and I think that if no one else
ever says that to you. Please know that I am
somewhere in the world and my perception of you is
what you wish it could be from others. So please,
(16:50):
I'm not the only person that will see you, So
please believe me.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I am. I think I'm so emotional because I.
Speaker 4 (17:09):
See this pain so deeply of people that live with this,
and I've seen so many people lose their lives because
they don't ever hear what you've just said, and they
don't ever experience the people in their worlds showing them
(17:31):
what you've just said. And I think it's I mean,
we've tried for the last three seasons of this podcast
to find someone who could talk about borderline personality disorder
from this one.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
I think you're so.
Speaker 4 (17:46):
Incredibly articulate and graceful, and you've just been through hell
with it.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
But to be able to sit there and.
Speaker 4 (17:57):
Articulate the way that you do and talk to these
people the way that you do is something that I'm
so grateful.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
That the world has, and I know that the world
was very.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Close to not having that with you, which also makes
me freaking emotional, Like you're here and people get to
understand that there is hope because you exist. And when
we did the Change your Mind into View, you were
talking about a moment that was really really bad for
you where you kind of were like you just didn't
(18:33):
see any way out.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
Would you be willing to talk about that?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Definitely, and thank you for everything that you've said.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Creating a family.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Is all I've ever wanted, and I'm a very ambitious woman.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
I tend to pile on.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Really massive projects all at once, like opening up an
entire treatment center, completing IVF and having a baby, completing
a doctorate, and my licensure hours for my masters.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
I did all of that at the.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
Same time in twenty seventeen successfully, So I tried it
again in twenty twenty three, where I did IVF, to
have a baby, opened up a treatment center, and wrote
my debut book. The problem was I am also autistic,
(19:33):
and as we age, our sensitivity levels increase, our energy
levels decrease naturally, not all the time, and I am
not the same person. I've also been through a lot
more trauma since twenty seventeen. But when I became pregnant,
(19:54):
actually I should say I became pregnant three days after
being diagnosed autistic. So for a year prior to that,
I was struggling significantly. I was already really depressed and anxious.
And being depressed and anxious when you are a mental
health public figure, I'm sure you know, is very overwhelming.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
What do you show?
Speaker 3 (20:20):
What do you not show? What has a lesson in it?
For people?
Speaker 2 (20:24):
What's just cathartic messiness? And I didn't know my place online.
And when I was working to open my treatment center,
it wasn't going well because I was so anxious and depressed.
And when I became pregnant, I lost all sense of control.
(20:45):
My body was no longer mine, and I struggled with
a sense of self and mind.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
So I was trapped.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I felt trapped, And after I received the diagnosis, my
husband and I began to get into a lot of
arguments because we were trying to figure out if my
anxiety was simply anxiety, was a trauma response, was my
borderline acting up? Was my autistic difficulties interpersonally? And I
(21:21):
needed so much. I needed the most I've ever needed
in my life. And I've been with my husband for
eighteen years, nineteen years, and he's an amazing human being.
Speaker 3 (21:33):
But we didn't know what to do.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
And we were down at the beach one day and
we got into a really big argument, and you know,
I said, when are you going to stop judging me?
Speaker 3 (21:47):
Now? Humans judge there's nothing we can do about it.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
And we were writing a book about this exact thing,
and he said, I'm always going to judge you, and
he meant it mean, and we had just in a
section on how humans will judge no matter what there's
nothing we can do about it.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
So he wasn't trying to trigger me, but it did. Didn't.
I wasn't honest with him about where I was at.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
So he got out of the car and he went
down to the beach with our son and I stayed
in the car and I had panic attacks and breakdowns,
and I was pregnant. I think I was three or
four months pregnant, and I just needed a pause, like
(22:32):
really badly shaking, hyperventilating. So I called my best friend,
who I never call.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
I don't.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
We talked through words that are written, she answered. She
talked to me for an hour, and I kept playing
in my head like this is what I'm gonna do.
I can't handle this anymore. I'm not helping people online.
My body's not mine. The business isn't working. There's no
way I can write the book.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Like the thoughts, the thoughts.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
That make you believe it's not going to end, or
the pain she talked me out of it.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
I kind of like that.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
I'm talking about this slow because when we had this
last interview, I was breaking, really breaking down, crying. I
feel like I'm a little more healed from it now.
So I did not do what I was going to
do that day, and it's been fifteen months since that day.
(23:41):
I cannot believe it's been that long. The day that
my daughter was born, I.
Speaker 7 (23:50):
Was so happy I stayed. I really can't believe that
I almost didn't. And you know, I've.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
Seen people have active suicidality as a clinician often, and
I've dealt with passive suicidality for decades.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
It's never been active.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
And I never quite understood the joy that came from
knowing that you didn't do it.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Until now.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
And I just want everybody to know that feeling. Everyone struggling.
It's a really hard feeling to believe exists, but it does,
and it's fascinating and it's better than you could ever imagine.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
I think this is the first time this season that
I've really cried in an interview.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
But it's.
Speaker 8 (24:54):
Again just sitting here and seeing you and even seeing
you now compared to last year when we down, and
just the difference already in you, and just this light
that has turned on of I'm here, Like I'm so
glad that I'm here.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
I mean, I know that even in that last interview,
I was, you know, talking about again how phenomenal, phenomenal
it is that you are so willing to speak about
these things. But I really truly hope you understand the
gravity of the path that you were laying for so
many people that are struggling with this that feel like
(25:36):
they're the only ones that feel like there is something
just acutely wrong with them, and that this is it
that they get to those points of this will never change,
this pain will never end, and you today are just
such an example and of hope that these people so
(25:56):
desperately need. And I'm so incredibly thankful that you stayed.
I'm so thankful you picked up the phone that day
and that you were able to be here to bring
your daughter into this world and to refine your strength again.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
And like you said, like recovery is a.
Speaker 4 (26:17):
Journey, right, Like there's still there's so much healing to go,
and I'm on that same like, there's still so much.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Healing that I have to do.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
But to get to that position of being thankful that
you are still alive, that is the moment that is
so worth fighting for.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I yeah, I just oh my.
Speaker 4 (26:39):
Gosh, Courtney, you are such a phenomenal human and I
would love to know what the process has been like
for you from that day that you made that phone
call to now being able to sit here and go
I'm so happy I'm here.
Speaker 1 (26:59):
What was that procees? What happened?
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I struggled for quite a while after that day. You know,
we had the interview a few months after, and then
I watched that interview after it was posted, and then
I stopped all social media, and I remember you reached
out and you were like, excuse me, are you okay?
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Did we do something like? Are you what's wrong?
Speaker 2 (27:28):
And seeing myself explain the scariest moment of my life
in the way that I described it made me feel
like I had something special to offer and needed to
take care of myself so that it didn't go anywhere.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
So thank you for that interview. It really changed my.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Life, and I decided to try to do my treatment center.
After I saw that interview, I had shut it down completely.
I was working with a ghost writer for my debut book,
and I decided that sh she couldn't write my story
(28:16):
the way that I could, so I let her keep
the money and I started all over from scratch.
Speaker 3 (28:23):
And had my baby.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
So I guess what happened was I decided to live
and to exist and to give it my all. And
so I took a break and I've been slowly coming back.
My business is open, my book cover was just revealed.
My baby's turning eight months old, and I think I've
(28:51):
just told myself the truth.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
You are who you are.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
You go through what you go through, and there's things
that you can control, and there's things that you cannot,
and the wisdom comes from knowing the difference.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
Yeah, So that's what my entire book is about.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
I wrote about what it means to feel wildly out
of control, to have a diagnosis where people think you're
insane and evil, and to be stable and good through
it all.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
When does this book come out?
Speaker 3 (29:27):
The book comes.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
Out March eleventh, twenty twenty five and what's it called.
Speaker 3 (29:32):
It's called Your.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Unconscious is Showing and the subtitle is take Control of
your life using the Twelve Steps of Consciousness.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Wow, oh my gosh.
Speaker 4 (29:44):
I everyone who is listening to this, I please whenever
this comes out for pre order, pre order it.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
I remember doing it.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
Was your podcast so long ago, Like literally, I think
we both had kind of really well babies in the
social media space, like we're just kind of in those
beginning stages, and you had your podcast was about that
concept of the unconscious, and I think it was the
first time that I had really thought about it in
(30:14):
the way that you were articulating and began to be like,
oh my gosh, like there's so many things of like
these beliefs and behaviors that have developed that I'm just
so in my mind, I'm like, this is everything that's
wrong with me. But it was like these things developed
at some point, and my brain has just been working
over time to protect itself without me even knowing.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
And I'm really really.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
Excited to read this book, and I'm so glad that
you wrote it yourself. I just think it makes it
so much more powerful, especially because of the voice that
you are and I know I've said it twelve million
times in this interview, and I'll say it twelve million
more times again because I just don't know if you
realize how special you are and how many people your
(31:04):
voice and your story and your openness just gives them
that hope. And I also really love that you are
a woman who is living with borderline and with autism
and your experiences that you've had, and you've got your
doctorate and you are opening treatment centers and you've written
(31:25):
a book like you are the proof that your illness
is not your identity and that you can live a
full life, even though the statistics and the things that
you see online about the fact that this will never
go away because it makes people lose hope, right there's
no treatment necessarily or pill to magic pilled it to
(31:47):
change it, so people feel hopeless.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
And I just your life is.
Speaker 4 (31:50):
So evident that that's just this gues It gets so
hard at times, and it is and ebbs and flows,
but my goodness, you.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Survive every day.
Speaker 4 (31:59):
You survive, and you live, and you write and you
create places people to get help.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Like you're just such a phenomenal person.
Speaker 4 (32:09):
And I will tell you that till the day I die,
because you're just You're.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Phenomenal, and I would love you if you could.
Speaker 4 (32:20):
I think kind of well, we've talked about a lot,
and what we know to be true is that borderline
personality is such a misunderstood illness, right, and I think
for those who know someone in their immediate life who
has it, it can be so confusing to understand the
behaviors and the reactions and the responses, and kind of
hard to get out of. I think attention seeking is
(32:43):
often a stigma that is attached to this as well.
I would love for you to be able to articulate
to people who have a loved one with borderline who
don't understand from this lived experience point of view. Can
you tell them the things that their loved ones want
them to know, well, you know, wish for them to know,
(33:06):
but maybe just don't know how to articulate it as
they're in the middle of it.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
That's such a good question.
Speaker 5 (33:14):
We're sorry, it's very hard, and we did not ask
for this, and we know that you didn't either.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
We hear you, and we know that you love us,
and we know that we can be hurtful and we
need your help. When people act in any way. There's
a process that happens internally.
Speaker 6 (33:53):
The way that our body feels triggers the thoughts that
our brains have, and the thoughts that our brains have
create the stories.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
That we tell ourselves.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
We were not taught how our body works. We were
not taught how our brain works. We were not taught
how our mind works. What we were taught is that
we deserve and cause pain. And when that is all
you know, you tend not to do the things that
(34:29):
you would do if you knew more. So hold our hand,
set your boundaries, and please give us a chance.
Speaker 4 (34:49):
I Oh, I don't even know what to say, except
that just it was both so beautiful and so heart
wrenching at the same time and so important. So thank
you for taking the time to really think about that
(35:13):
and to be able to articulate the things that so
many can't and don't know how to. Your voice is
so important and has just been able to clarify and
almost just pull back the curtains to show what it
(35:34):
is really like.
Speaker 1 (35:37):
In a way that I know a lot of people
want to be able to express but can't. And I
would really love to ask you this last question before I.
Speaker 4 (35:49):
Let you go as much. I mean, I want to
talk to you all day, every day. I just this
so much wisdom that comes from you. This podcast is
called Hope Is Real and I asked this to everyone,
but I really want to ask this to you. With
everything that you've shared and all of your experiences, what
(36:11):
does the word hope mean to you?
Speaker 2 (36:15):
You asked me this in the last interview, and I
didn't have an answer at the time, and then I
went and looked it up, was like, what is the
typical definition? And honestly, my mind just went shit. I
don't remember what it said, but I've been thinking about
(36:39):
that since you asked. What's coming up for me is
that I'm full of hope in a way that I
never have been before.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
I think for me, hope is knowing.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
That there's a way out, that you're not alone, and
that things do get better. I'd argue to say that
hope feels like love, because when I think of hope
and the feeling that it gives me, it's the same
(37:19):
feeling that my husband gives me. And as you can
probably tell, i'm autistic in borderline right now when I'm
a therapist and I'm still trying to decipher what love
and hope feel like, you know, I do. I think
I'm going to go with that, like, because hope is real,
(37:39):
and what's real is that things can change and you're
not alone and things get better. Yeah, I feel like
I'm coming till it's like I have an answer to it.
Maybe I want it to be more succinct, but I
think what I find fascinating is that such a simple question,
for such an articulate person can be such a stop sign,
(38:00):
and maybe that means I have more hope to find.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
I also think that.
Speaker 4 (38:06):
What I'm the person who is sitting here on zoom
in front of me right now, you and your life
right now is the very definition of hope. I think
that knowing your story and from even from the last interview.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
To now, and the fact that.
Speaker 4 (38:25):
You're still here and you are speaking the way that
you are, you represent hope. And I think that's that's
why I really and I know that I did ask
you that in the last interview, and just like I
said right at the beginning, this light has really turned
on in you that you can see and this kind
(38:47):
of grit of I'm going to stay and I'm going
to be here no matter what, and.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
You're the way that you just are.
Speaker 4 (38:58):
And yeah, I just I think that you carry hope
wherever you are and with every word that you have
spoken on this podcast, hope has been there. And I
think that, yeah, like you said, hope is a journey
that maybe there's definitely always more hope to find. But
(39:19):
I hope that you hope. I hope that you leave
this interview.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Really like, I really want you to.
Speaker 4 (39:26):
Understand that, like you you to me right now, this
is hope, Like this is you look at your your
eight month old daughter.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
That is hope. Yeah, Like it's the fact that Yeah,
I mean I could go on and on and on,
and I mean I really I.
Speaker 4 (39:47):
Need people to be able to get this book when
it comes out.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
I just think that the wisdom that you have is just.
Speaker 4 (39:54):
So so needed in this world. And I mean, how
can people find you on the socials as well?
Speaker 8 (40:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (40:04):
You Well, my website is the Truthdoctor dot com and
you can pre order my books there.
Speaker 3 (40:10):
Now, okay, we.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Will put a link up on both in the show
notes of this but also on our page when this
interview comes up, So please everyone go order it.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Thank you, And then my socials on TikTok, Instagram and
YouTube and snapchat and LinkedIn.
Speaker 3 (40:27):
Are the Truth Doctor as well?
Speaker 2 (40:29):
And for the pre order, you can do that anywhere
you can pre order books. I'll get better at that soon.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
Wait. Can I just ask where did the name the
Truth Doctor come from?
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Well, the name the Truth Doctor came from. Actually I
write about it in the book. The year that my
son was turning one, I was finishing my doctorate and
I was finishing my hours to become a licensed clinician.
I went through a major family trauma publicly in front
of my whole city as a treatment center owner and
(41:02):
a therapist. It was a really big deal, and I
started drowning myself in the stigma of mental health and
substance use issues.
Speaker 3 (41:12):
And I caved. It was really bad.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
And then I decided that if someone was going to
come out and show that therapists can be human beings,
that human beings can struggle with mental health issues, therefore
so can therapist. If anyone was going to do that,
I wanted it to be me. So I talked to
my husband and I said, I'm going to make a
(41:36):
social media account and I'm going to tell it all
all the time. The full truth, all of it, all
my messiness, and he was like, okay, and I said,
what should I name myself? And he said, you should
name yourself the Truth doctor, because I've never met a
woman that couldn't hold back saying it exactly the way
(41:57):
that it is for the benefit of other people. And
if there isn't another definition of the truth, doctor, and
I don't know what is, so I made it the
Truth doctor, and I made my mission to tell my
truth to help other people tell theirs, and that that
is my method appealing.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
I love that so much.
Speaker 4 (42:18):
And I'm just so thankful that you've taken the time
to come on this podcast and to chat with me
again for a second time. And I'm so glad that
you have because I just been able to just see
this growth from the last interview to this one is
just so beautiful. And I know that you're you're very
(42:38):
busy doing the twelve million things that you do, and
on top of it, you're a mind. I don't even
have kids, and I feel like I'm constantly scrambling with
the amount of stuff I'm doing. So thank you so
much for coming on. Is there any anything else that
you want to say before I let you go, you
can have a whole other hour. If you wire, I've
you you.
Speaker 1 (42:56):
Just take the floor.
Speaker 2 (43:00):
I think I would just like to say that while
I can be really deep, I can also be really fun.
Speaker 3 (43:13):
And so I want people to know.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
That this or these very difficult conditions and disorders and
the healing process from them does not have to be
a drag or dreary or just feel like another nightmare
on top of the one you were trying to get
(43:37):
yourself out of. It can be fun and lighthearted and joyful.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
And that's the up and down that you've been talking about.
Speaker 2 (43:49):
And so just please keep that in mind to everyone listening,
Like when you find yourself on the path of healing
from borderline personality disorder and it just seems like it's
always always work, that probably means you're coming close to
it being a little fun. So stay in the game
(44:09):
and remember that I see you and you can see me.
Just come online and say.
Speaker 4 (44:17):
Hi, oh that's so beautiful. Hey, thank you so much
for coming on this podcast, and I hope that you
have a good rest of your evening because it is
now I know the time zone that we're.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
Yes, it is. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (44:30):
Jos thank you. Well do you have it?
Speaker 4 (44:33):
Guys, thank you so much for staying and for listening
to this episode. And like I've said at the beginning,
and I always say, if anything in this episode that's
been talked about has brought anything up for you, you
feel like you need to talk to someone, then please
remember and know that the bravest thing that you can
do right now is to talk to someone, is to
ask for help, whether that's from a friend, a family member,
(44:55):
or if you don't know who to talk to, then
if you live in Altaiola here you can call or
text one seven three seven at any time to talk
to a trained counselor. Or if you live overseas, go
to dubdubdub dot the Voices of Hope dot org for
a list of international helplines. Remember that no matter what
it is that you're facing, no matter what it is
that you're going through, that in all things, hope is
(45:18):
real and change as possible.
Speaker 1 (45:20):
I'll see you guys next week
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