October 1, 2024 • 11 mins
Teachers say they are shocked with how new curriculum material is being rolled out.
Changes to NCEA Level One are being put in place before changes to Level Two and Three come into force in four years.
However, a scathing survey by the Post Primary Teachers Association shows the vast majority are dissatisfied with the new material.
Union President Chris Abercrombie told Kerre Woodham that resources were late and not good enough, with many exemplars being poorly done.
He said many teachers were worried about how this is going to impact students and their outcomes.
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the carry Wood of Mornings podcast from
News Talk sed B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
The Education Minister says she has a great relationship with
the teachers union despite some disagreements. A PPTA survey just
out shows a majority of teachers are really unhappy with
the NCAA Level one rollout. Erica Stanford, the Education Minister,
told Heather Duplicy Allen this morning that most of the
teachers concerns are the fault of the past government. PPTA
(00:35):
President Chris Abercrombie joins me, Now, good morning to you.
Thank you. I know you're in the middle of a
day long meeting.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
No, not a problem at all.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
What's the meeting on? Are you curriculum changes or just.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Oh it's a bit of everything. So is in your conference.
We're talking about curriculum, We're talking about NCAA, talking about
charter schools, talking about.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Lots of things, right, Okay, So it was a pretty
scathing survey from the teachers. They were pretty concerned about
the increase to the workload, the lack of guide, it's
the lack of resources to support them. Where did the
concerns come from? Are they new changes that they're concerned about?
Are they the changes that were made back in twenty
(01:17):
two to twenty three. What is it all of the everything?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
It's all of the everything. So absolutely these changes were
made at a previous time, though those changes have been
signaled for a long time under the previous government. But
we're dealing with the changes as they are now, and
we know our teachers are really clearly said to us
that the resources were late, the resources weren't good enough,
exemplars were poorly done, and they're just really worried about
(01:44):
how this is going to affect the students and their outcomes.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Would it have been better to go ahead with a
flawed n CEA Level one program.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Well, part of the issue is is that by the
time the new minister came in and the election period
and all of that, it was almost too late to
stop it. It was sort of got us life of
its own, and to be fair to the minister, she
reached out to subject associations and got some changes done
over the school holidays very quickly to get some resources
into schools as quickly as possible, and she has been
(02:15):
pushing really hard for the agencies to be stepping up
and giving the resources to the schools in a more
timely fashion. But this has been a problem that existed.
Concerns existed for a while. That's why the level two
and threes have been pushed out even more to allow
more time to get this right.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
But there were so many concerns about labor it say,
labors Incair Level one that some secondary schools said, look,
we're just not going to implement it. We have no
faith in it. There are no resources, there are there
is no there is no rigid you know, there's no
real curriculum in fact, so some schools did say no,
(02:52):
we're not going to.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yes, there are some schools have partially partially implemented it.
They've done a couple of standards, done a couple of
bits here and there, and as he said, some schools
have said no, we don't believe it's ready for us,
and we and the consequence of that really is that
we think more schools will potentially drop it. But we
also know it's actually really important qualification for a number
(03:13):
of our young people. And we know if you get
a Level one you're more likely to stay in education
or go into work than if you don't have it.
So it is important for some of our young people,
and some of our community. So it is important we
get it right.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I really really feel for teachers when you look at
the at the swings and the pendulums, and the backwards
and the forwards that's going on a with the curriculum.
Then you've got our kids today don't know how to budget.
Oh well, the schools can fix it. Kids today don't
know how to be good citizens. All the schools can
fix it. Like, there is so much going on, it's
(03:49):
a wonder that there's even enough of you to have
a conference.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Do you know.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I've just been lying around with a cold compress on
my head thinking, oh, dear God, I've got two weeks
then I'm back into it.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
And that's and that's the thing were our workforce is
under pressure in so many different ways and it shows
that dedication. Our teachers have to come to a conference,
to sit in a room all day to talk about curriculum,
talk about NCAA and the issues that we're facing in
our education. And you're absolutely right about the lyritures. If
we look at the most successful jurisdictions around the world
in education, there is consensus between the sector, between the
(04:23):
government and the ministry, and that's what we need. To
get because we can't. These lyricures cannot continue. And teaching
is an amazing profession. I've been doing it twenty years.
I absolutely love it. But it is hard and it's
getting harder.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
But at the same time, when you have I know
that not everybody agrees with testing, but when you have
got New Zealand kids falling further and further and further
down the ladder in terms of achievement internationally, when you
have so many parents who are spending money, they simply
have to find from somewhere on extra learning outside of
(05:00):
school with private education providers to shore up gaps in
their kids knowledge because they're so worried about it. When
you have got parents taking their kids out of school
and putting them into alternative education or private education, when
you have got you know, real concerns from employers about
young people being work ready because they're barely literate. Somebody
(05:23):
has to address what's being taught in schools at some.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Point, absolutely, and I want them. It is clear we're
not against reform, no perlmers absolutely need in the education
system because it has to be working better. We all
recognize this, you know, attendance vital. We want the young
kids in school, literacy and numeracy vital. We need to
improve it. But what we need is a cross party,
cross government, clear long term plan because if you think
(05:49):
about that five year old that starts school next year,
for us in secondary, we're not seeing them for nine
years normally, and so the intervention in that child for
us to see the benefit of it, and secondary it's
nine years away potentially, you know, long term. And so
that's why we need a long term vision, a long
term plan that's cross party, that doesn't matter what government's
in charge. Sure it it's still around the edges, that's
(06:10):
absolutely fine. But the direction of travel is what we
need to get their consistency because the lurching doesn't help
anyone and actually doesn't help achievement, doesn't help curriculum development.
It just slows it down because teachers are having to
redo things every three years or six years or whatever
it is.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
It's like the Ministry of Silly Walks. You walk three
paces and then get told to turn around and go
back for and then turn around and go sideways too,
and it's madness. I've always thought, and I wondered if
it was too simplistic that there is best practice. In medicine,
you can continually involve, evolve the instruments you use, and
with technology comes advancements. But basically you take a you know,
(06:51):
you do a lung transplant the same way you've always
ways done with improvements, you set a leg the way
you've always done with improvements. Is there a best practice
that we can all fix on for education? And as
you say, then just tak around the edges.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Absolutely, And the thing is we've got that evidence that exists.
We've actually got something called the best evidences evident synthesis.
We've talked about the best way of teaching things, but
like a lot of things in education, it gets caught
up in political movements and political mechinations and things change,
and you know, priorities are different for different political parties
(07:25):
of all shapes and sizes and colors, and that has
an impact. You know, we do lyrics from one spot
to the other. Now. To be fair to the previous
minister and the current minister, they did try to work
on the NCAA changes to get get a bit of
cross party a bit of the curriculum direction. But we
just need more of it across all parties in government
to get some direction, clear, some clear ares, some clear sky,
(07:48):
so teachers can focus on the job and get the
teaching and learning done, get the curriculum delivered, and get
the best for our young people.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
And I'm sorry, but there was a pilon on teachers
in the in the first hour where they were saying, oh, teachers,
and they are too woke, and then let the kids
go off to protests and they let them checke genders
at the drop of a hat and what have you.
But the real issue is parenting. Surely you are being
asked to deal with a lot of parents who have
(08:16):
just taken their hands off and said, now you deal
with them. I'm not interested. You make them decent citizens.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
It was this really interesting comrade into a week while ago,
and one of the speakers talking about the lack of
other things in our society. So when I went to
boy Scouts, you know, I was in the rugby club,
and those things are decreasing in society. So those other
organizations that helped create an awesome society are getting less
and less people involved. There's less people doing sports, there's
(08:45):
less people involved in the Lions club or the whatever
you know, and it's leaving it up to basically schools
and workplaces to try and do that, you know, outside
of the family, and that's putting a lot of pressure
on both of those.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, that's a really good point about those extra structures
that gave structure, and especially if you had a child
from a broken family or sing parent family. Now they
got that discipline and they saw the male line that
they wanted.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
To be like, yeah, absolutely, and you saw the role
of community and the role of society and how we
you know, we might have disagreements, but you know, we're
all on the same boat, you know, and we all
got to make this boat work. And so, you know,
and I think that's part of the sort of what
we see in society is those extra structures in society
(09:32):
that used to be so common. I'm sure a lot
of your listeners were in girl guides or boys brigade
or the church group or whatever whatever organization they're in,
and sports clubs and you know where I'm down south
marching girls. All of those things, you know, were really
important structures in your community that helped shape your community,
help shape our society. And now it's effectively just schools
(09:52):
and workplaces left up to do that.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
The one thing that really makes me sad is that
when I was growing up at I was a small
town girl to a book any Hamilton. So but I
got world class education at every single school I went to,
even though I was moving schools a lot, even though
you know they were tiny schools, even though pakia were
(10:16):
in the minority and a couple of them, my education was,
you know, could have stood the test of any other
school in the world, in the English speaking world. And
I just don't think that's true these days. I don't
think that we're giving that kid. What I see is
New Zealand's birthright.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Yeah. No, Look, I grew up in the time. I
grew up in small central Itagio, rural schools went with
very small schools, moved around a lot, So I tended
lots of schools, and I had an excellent education. You know.
I went to a very small rural high school and
I gre goate a university and I'm president of BBDA
and all of that, and that was really important. And
I think that's absolutely vital. And you know, one of
the key things in our education system is getting high
(10:58):
quality teachers to every school in this country. You know,
schools are struggling to get teachers. And so if the
schools in Aukland are struggling to recruit, I often think
about the school in Lumson, or the school in Tapanui,
or the school in Rotoria. You know how yeah we're
too long? How they how are they going? You know?
And so you know, to get high quality teachers into
(11:18):
every school because I agree with you it is the
right of every young person in this country, every child
to have a high quality subject specialist in front of them.
And that's what we fight.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
For and continue the good fight. Chris. It's lovely to
talk with you and I appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Now, is it all? It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Chris Abercromby, PPTA President. I come in charge about kids.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
This is good for more from carry Wood and Mornings.
Listen live to news talks. It'd be from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the carry Wood of Mornings podcast from
News Talk sed B.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
The Education Minister says she has a great relationship with
the teachers union despite some disagreements. A PPTA survey just
out shows a majority of teachers are really unhappy with
the NCAA Level one rollout. Erica Stanford, the Education Minister,
told Heather Duplicy Allen this morning that most of the
teachers concerns are the fault of the past government. PPTA
(00:35):
President Chris Abercrombie joins me, Now, good morning to you.
Thank you. I know you're in the middle of a
day long meeting.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
No, not a problem at all.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
What's the meeting on? Are you curriculum changes or just.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
Oh it's a bit of everything. So is in your conference.
We're talking about curriculum, We're talking about NCAA, talking about
charter schools, talking about.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
Lots of things, right, Okay, So it was a pretty
scathing survey from the teachers. They were pretty concerned about
the increase to the workload, the lack of guide, it's
the lack of resources to support them. Where did the
concerns come from? Are they new changes that they're concerned about?
Are they the changes that were made back in twenty
(01:17):
two to twenty three. What is it all of the everything?
Speaker 3 (01:23):
It's all of the everything. So absolutely these changes were
made at a previous time, though those changes have been
signaled for a long time under the previous government. But
we're dealing with the changes as they are now, and
we know our teachers are really clearly said to us
that the resources were late, the resources weren't good enough,
exemplars were poorly done, and they're just really worried about
(01:44):
how this is going to affect the students and their outcomes.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Would it have been better to go ahead with a
flawed n CEA Level one program.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Well, part of the issue is is that by the
time the new minister came in and the election period
and all of that, it was almost too late to
stop it. It was sort of got us life of
its own, and to be fair to the minister, she
reached out to subject associations and got some changes done
over the school holidays very quickly to get some resources
into schools as quickly as possible, and she has been
(02:15):
pushing really hard for the agencies to be stepping up
and giving the resources to the schools in a more
timely fashion. But this has been a problem that existed.
Concerns existed for a while. That's why the level two
and threes have been pushed out even more to allow
more time to get this right.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
But there were so many concerns about labor it say,
labors Incair Level one that some secondary schools said, look,
we're just not going to implement it. We have no
faith in it. There are no resources, there are there
is no there is no rigid you know, there's no
real curriculum in fact, so some schools did say no,
(02:52):
we're not going to.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
Yes, there are some schools have partially partially implemented it.
They've done a couple of standards, done a couple of
bits here and there, and as he said, some schools
have said no, we don't believe it's ready for us,
and we and the consequence of that really is that
we think more schools will potentially drop it. But we
also know it's actually really important qualification for a number
(03:13):
of our young people. And we know if you get
a Level one you're more likely to stay in education
or go into work than if you don't have it.
So it is important for some of our young people,
and some of our community. So it is important we
get it right.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
I really really feel for teachers when you look at
the at the swings and the pendulums, and the backwards
and the forwards that's going on a with the curriculum.
Then you've got our kids today don't know how to budget.
Oh well, the schools can fix it. Kids today don't
know how to be good citizens. All the schools can
fix it. Like, there is so much going on, it's
(03:49):
a wonder that there's even enough of you to have
a conference.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
Do you know.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I've just been lying around with a cold compress on
my head thinking, oh, dear God, I've got two weeks
then I'm back into it.
Speaker 3 (04:00):
And that's and that's the thing were our workforce is
under pressure in so many different ways and it shows
that dedication. Our teachers have to come to a conference,
to sit in a room all day to talk about curriculum,
talk about NCAA and the issues that we're facing in
our education. And you're absolutely right about the lyritures. If
we look at the most successful jurisdictions around the world
in education, there is consensus between the sector, between the
(04:23):
government and the ministry, and that's what we need. To
get because we can't. These lyricures cannot continue. And teaching
is an amazing profession. I've been doing it twenty years.
I absolutely love it. But it is hard and it's
getting harder.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
But at the same time, when you have I know
that not everybody agrees with testing, but when you have
got New Zealand kids falling further and further and further
down the ladder in terms of achievement internationally, when you
have so many parents who are spending money, they simply
have to find from somewhere on extra learning outside of
(05:00):
school with private education providers to shore up gaps in
their kids knowledge because they're so worried about it. When
you have got parents taking their kids out of school
and putting them into alternative education or private education, when
you have got you know, real concerns from employers about
young people being work ready because they're barely literate. Somebody
(05:23):
has to address what's being taught in schools at some.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Point, absolutely, and I want them. It is clear we're
not against reform, no perlmers absolutely need in the education
system because it has to be working better. We all
recognize this, you know, attendance vital. We want the young
kids in school, literacy and numeracy vital. We need to
improve it. But what we need is a cross party,
cross government, clear long term plan because if you think
(05:49):
about that five year old that starts school next year,
for us in secondary, we're not seeing them for nine
years normally, and so the intervention in that child for
us to see the benefit of it, and secondary it's
nine years away potentially, you know, long term. And so
that's why we need a long term vision, a long
term plan that's cross party, that doesn't matter what government's
in charge. Sure it it's still around the edges, that's
(06:10):
absolutely fine. But the direction of travel is what we
need to get their consistency because the lurching doesn't help
anyone and actually doesn't help achievement, doesn't help curriculum development.
It just slows it down because teachers are having to
redo things every three years or six years or whatever
it is.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
It's like the Ministry of Silly Walks. You walk three
paces and then get told to turn around and go
back for and then turn around and go sideways too,
and it's madness. I've always thought, and I wondered if
it was too simplistic that there is best practice. In medicine,
you can continually involve, evolve the instruments you use, and
with technology comes advancements. But basically you take a you know,
(06:51):
you do a lung transplant the same way you've always
ways done with improvements, you set a leg the way
you've always done with improvements. Is there a best practice
that we can all fix on for education? And as
you say, then just tak around the edges.
Speaker 3 (07:05):
Absolutely, And the thing is we've got that evidence that exists.
We've actually got something called the best evidences evident synthesis.
We've talked about the best way of teaching things, but
like a lot of things in education, it gets caught
up in political movements and political mechinations and things change,
and you know, priorities are different for different political parties
(07:25):
of all shapes and sizes and colors, and that has
an impact. You know, we do lyrics from one spot
to the other. Now. To be fair to the previous
minister and the current minister, they did try to work
on the NCAA changes to get get a bit of
cross party a bit of the curriculum direction. But we
just need more of it across all parties in government
to get some direction, clear, some clear ares, some clear sky,
(07:48):
so teachers can focus on the job and get the
teaching and learning done, get the curriculum delivered, and get
the best for our young people.
Speaker 2 (07:55):
And I'm sorry, but there was a pilon on teachers
in the in the first hour where they were saying, oh, teachers,
and they are too woke, and then let the kids
go off to protests and they let them checke genders
at the drop of a hat and what have you.
But the real issue is parenting. Surely you are being
asked to deal with a lot of parents who have
(08:16):
just taken their hands off and said, now you deal
with them. I'm not interested. You make them decent citizens.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
It was this really interesting comrade into a week while ago,
and one of the speakers talking about the lack of
other things in our society. So when I went to
boy Scouts, you know, I was in the rugby club,
and those things are decreasing in society. So those other
organizations that helped create an awesome society are getting less
and less people involved. There's less people doing sports, there's
(08:45):
less people involved in the Lions club or the whatever
you know, and it's leaving it up to basically schools
and workplaces to try and do that, you know, outside
of the family, and that's putting a lot of pressure
on both of those.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, that's a really good point about those extra structures
that gave structure, and especially if you had a child
from a broken family or sing parent family. Now they
got that discipline and they saw the male line that
they wanted.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
To be like, yeah, absolutely, and you saw the role
of community and the role of society and how we
you know, we might have disagreements, but you know, we're
all on the same boat, you know, and we all
got to make this boat work. And so, you know,
and I think that's part of the sort of what
we see in society is those extra structures in society
(09:32):
that used to be so common. I'm sure a lot
of your listeners were in girl guides or boys brigade
or the church group or whatever whatever organization they're in,
and sports clubs and you know where I'm down south
marching girls. All of those things, you know, were really
important structures in your community that helped shape your community,
help shape our society. And now it's effectively just schools
(09:52):
and workplaces left up to do that.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
The one thing that really makes me sad is that
when I was growing up at I was a small
town girl to a book any Hamilton. So but I
got world class education at every single school I went to,
even though I was moving schools a lot, even though
you know they were tiny schools, even though pakia were
(10:16):
in the minority and a couple of them, my education was,
you know, could have stood the test of any other
school in the world, in the English speaking world. And
I just don't think that's true these days. I don't
think that we're giving that kid. What I see is
New Zealand's birthright.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Yeah. No, Look, I grew up in the time. I
grew up in small central Itagio, rural schools went with
very small schools, moved around a lot, So I tended
lots of schools, and I had an excellent education. You know.
I went to a very small rural high school and
I gre goate a university and I'm president of BBDA
and all of that, and that was really important. And
I think that's absolutely vital. And you know, one of
the key things in our education system is getting high
(10:58):
quality teachers to every school in this country. You know,
schools are struggling to get teachers. And so if the
schools in Aukland are struggling to recruit, I often think
about the school in Lumson, or the school in Tapanui,
or the school in Rotoria. You know how yeah we're
too long? How they how are they going? You know?
And so you know, to get high quality teachers into
(11:18):
every school because I agree with you it is the
right of every young person in this country, every child
to have a high quality subject specialist in front of them.
And that's what we fight.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
For and continue the good fight. Chris. It's lovely to
talk with you and I appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Now, is it all? It's been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Chris Abercromby, PPTA President. I come in charge about kids.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
This is good for more from carry Wood and Mornings.
Listen live to news talks. It'd be from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio.
Popular Podcasts
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.