Episode 15: Tim O'Connor

In Leaders Getting Coffee episode 15, our guest is Tim O’Connor, the 11th Headmaster of Auckland Grammar School.

Tim’s career in education has taken him through some of New Zealand’s best known schools for boys including Nelson College and Palmerston North Boys High, before joining Grammar in 2012.

It’s a rare opportunity to speak to a leader in a sector that is so important for the future of the country, while at the same time having grave concerns for the current state of that sector. O’Connor confirms that our fears are well founded, but the good news is that he has a prescription for what the future needs to look like.

As a result, the discussion covers topics like the suitability of NCEA, the current curriculum and whether teacher training is fit for purpose. There’s also the needs of the primary school sector that feeds our colleges, and what they need to do to be better.

And then there are the unique aspects of life at Auckland Grammar School where "old school" values reign supreme, and where respect and discipline are to the fore.

Yet again, Leaders Getting Coffee unveils a unique and fascinating leadership story, one that will, at some time, affect most of us, and our children.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hey, everyone, that's Bruce Cottrel here. Thanks for joining our
Leaders Getting Coffee podcast. It's great to have you with
us again. Believe it or not, we're up to episode fifteen. Gee,
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on your feedback that you seem to be enjoying it.
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(00:37):
company of news talk S, EDB and The New Zealand Herald,
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up to three hundred comments on the New Zealand Herald

(00:57):
website before they stop the comments, and certainly stirred up
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a look at those. As always, you can see all

(01:18):
of my columns either through Newstalk z edb or The
New Zealand Herald or at Dubdubdub dot Brucecottrell dot com,
Forward Slash Blog, and as always, let me know any
feedback you may have at info at leaders getting Coffee
dot com. Our topic today is an important one. It's education.
And if you ever think you're struggling to create a

(01:40):
great customer experience in your business or in your job,
just imagine running a school. We have, for a start,
three sets of customers, all of whom wants something different
from you, in case you're wondering, in this case, those
customers are the students, the parents, and your team the teachers.
So we're going to be talking today to one such leader,
someone who deals with that challenge every single day. We'll

(02:02):
be back in a brief moment with one of our
leading school principles, a person who in my opinion, is
one of the best. Welcome back to Leaders Getting Coffee.
We are into episode fifteen, and it's great that you're

(02:23):
able to join us. The topic today is education and
our guest is the head master of one of our
most well known schools. I've only met him very recently
and he hosted me at a school assembly and then
showed me around the school. On the basis of that meeting,
I know we're in for something special today. His name
is Tim O'Connor and in twenty twelve he became just

(02:43):
the eleventh head master at Auckland Grammar School. The school
was officially opened at eighteen sixty nine. That's about one
hundred and fifty five years ago, so if you do
the maths, they've had a head master about once every
fourteen years, so there's a bit of longevity attached to
the role, that's for sure. Tim O'Connor was edgy educated
at Parmiston North Boys High School and gained his Diploma
of teaching at Palmerston North Teachers College. He then graduated

(03:07):
from Massi University with a bachelor's degree in education, and
he's subsequently undertaken postgraduate studies in improving schools and in
the Art of Leadership, as well as the Executive Leadership
Program at Harvard University. He began his teaching career in
nineteen ninety teaching in Wanganui before being appointed as Head
of English at wai Rappa College, and he was subsequently

(03:28):
took up the role as Deputy Principal of Nelson College
in the year two thousand. In two thousand and two,
Tim was appointed rector of Palmerston North Boys High School,
his old school, and while he was there he became
active in many broader issues related to boys education, including
the involvement his involvement in the Association of Boys' Schools
New Zealand, the Secondary School's Principals Association, and the International Boys'

(03:51):
Schools Coalition. In two thousand and seven he was awarded
a Wolf Fisher Fellowship and he was also named as
an Emerging Leader by the Sir Peter Blake Truck. Since
joining Auckland Grammar School, Tim has also become the trustee
of the New Zealand Examination Scholarships Trust, which is a
bit of a mouthful actually, and he's Chair of College
Sport in Auckland. He's a good fit for Auckland Grammar

(04:12):
because he has a philosophy philosophy on boys education which
reflects the importance of academic Ringer rigor and achievement complimented
by excess extensive extracurricular opportunities. And that's a terrific match
for the philosophy of the school that he leads. And
so it's a great pleasure to have our first school
headmaster on leaders getting coffee, Tim O'Connor, welcome.

Speaker 2 (04:35):
Thanks, Bruce, It's great to have you.

Speaker 1 (04:38):
What's the new Zealand Examination Scholarships Trust? Other than a
long mouthful.

Speaker 3 (04:44):
Nzity might be easier probably knowing to people in education circles.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
It's a trust that used.

Speaker 3 (04:51):
To run independent examinations in the days of people would
remember the days of six school Certificate and sixth Form
certificate and they ran independent examinations. They were academically rigorous,
actually run out a largely run out of auk and
grammar school and schools across the country opted into those

(05:12):
and then as the system has changed, they really no
longer look at examinations. They have moved into providing support
well one, identifying potential principles and then providing them with
a pretty good program to help them move into principalship.

Speaker 1 (05:36):
Okay, so it's an organization whose role has changed with
the times. Yeah, absolutely, you have at Auckland Grammar School,
two hundred and fifty staff, twenty seven hundred kids turning
up every day. I just have to imagine that you're
a coffee drinker.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, I am.

Speaker 3 (05:54):
On if you talked to my wife that' say I'm
a coffee snowboy. When we were living and Nelson, I
actually encouraged her to go and do barista training so
that she could then teach me, which is exactly what happened.
And now on the on the primary coffee maker in
our household.

Speaker 1 (06:14):
Good stuff, Tim, I wanted. I want to kick off
by jumping in the deep end if I may, and
and I appreciate you're in a sort of a reasonably
sensitive position, but how would you describe the current state
of our education system?

Speaker 2 (06:30):
Ah?

Speaker 3 (06:32):
In disarray, colloquially buggered. We're sort of we're heading towards
rock bottom. And I think that's evident by you know,
the OE c D results. I think it's evident by
people not wanting to enter the profession, the fact that
schools can't get ready access to specialist teachers because they'll

(06:58):
go into a private sector. You know, why become a
physics teacher or a chemistry teacher when you can actually
earn three times salary doing something else. The profession really,
from my point of view, isn't as valued as it was.
And we're not doing ourselves any favors by the lowering

(07:19):
standards that are occurring within our national qualification framework, nor
are we with the way the curriculum has headed in
the last few years. In fact, we haven't had the
last time we actually had a New Zealand curriculum, well,
our former New Zealand curriculum was two thousand and seven.
It hasn't changed since that point in time, and the

(07:41):
work that's been done now, in my mind, and along
with many principles across the country, is actually about lowering
the standards of what is taught in this country.

Speaker 1 (07:55):
So with that in mind, of course, education was one
of the hot topics in the country's recent election. We
have a new government as a result of that election.
Much as being expected from that government in terms of
the education sector, what would you like to see from
your perspective.

Speaker 3 (08:14):
You have jumped in there already taken the opportunity, and
I must say i'd give credit to Erica Stanford for
making yourself available. I sent her a message telling her
exactly what I thought was wrong with the New Zealand
education system right now, and she made herself available to

(08:36):
meet to hear firsthand what those things were, and really
I put them into Well, there are three main categories,
but the first is the curriculum. So we can't carry
on with a curriculum refresh like is being promoted right
now because but simply put, if I went and I do,

(08:57):
and if I was speaking to our heads of department,
many of them are not actually recognizing the subject content
that is actually being suggested or proposed in the new curriculum.
We need to and again go back to our OECD results,
go back to our national results. If you look at
for example, let's just use university entrance results from last year,

(09:21):
forty two point one percent of students of boys achieved that. Nationally,
fifty two point three fifty two point four percent of
girls across the country earned university entrants.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
That's the basic.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
Qualification to get into a program at a university. We're
at another scale, we're at eighty six point one percent.
But what is happening to our system is we actually
have two aspects within the national So the first is
actually curriculum The second is, let's let's stop the NCAA

(10:00):
change Program level two and three and let's take stock
of the curriculum that is required and put in place
a prescriptive curriculum that is benchmarked form internationally benchmarked from
years zero through to year thirteen, so that in every
school across the country parents can have faith about what

(10:22):
is being taught at what year level.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
And then it doesn't no matter what school you go to.

Speaker 3 (10:28):
You can begin to rely on the fact that these
are the things that are being taught in my son
or daughter's school. The second thing is we stop the
National Qualification Review and we actually ask the question is
NCA fit for purpose? Is a standards based system now?
That is for those who don't understand it, and many

(10:50):
still don't.

Speaker 2 (10:51):
Many parents don't.

Speaker 3 (10:53):
Not achieved achieved merit or excellence bands rather than a
percentage and an examination and teaching in chunks rather than
teaching as a whole. Is that fit for purpose in
New Zealand now? And we should take time to actually
consider that because the results are internationally when we are

(11:13):
being benchmarked, are only going one way. And the last
and the most important thing is actually we need to
do something with our teaching training status of initial teacher
education is no longer fit for purpose.

Speaker 2 (11:26):
It hasn't been for many years.

Speaker 3 (11:28):
And I don't I don't know of anyone, any teacher
who I know of, No apart from those who have
been through the Graduate School of Education in christ Church,
I'd say that's an exception. That work Kevin Knight does
there is brilliant. I don't know anyone, anyone other than
people who have been through that program who says that

(11:49):
their teacher training was worthwhile.

Speaker 1 (11:51):
Gee, that's a sad reflection on the state of the place.
We get a lot of chat about kids not turning
up at school. Depending on what statistics you're looking at,
it's anything up to forty five percent of school age
people not attending regularly. Based on the discipline that I
saw when I attended your school recently, I suspect you're

(12:14):
doing better than that. But what's yours Your perspective on
those sort of statistics.

Speaker 3 (12:20):
Yeah, I think the I think attendance rates have dropped
through COVID, and I think there was disengagement where you know,
schools either didn't have the capacity to engage with their
students or communities online, and that has flowed into many

(12:40):
communities with students actually being disaffected. You when you don't
experience some form of success and a subject, then you
start falling away from that subject. We all we all
know we have subjects of preference. But if you're not
attending and you have attended for a chunk of time,

(13:02):
you are not going to experience success. You are going
to be in catch up mode. And it's very difficult
after several years of COVID interruption to actually achieve that.
So there does need to be a reset. There should
have been a different model through COVID, but hey, that's
probably another podcast in itself. Need we need to face

(13:22):
the issue that we have right now and get into
communities that are identified with the lowest attendance rates and
get the kids back into schools.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
So it's a bit of a perfect storm, isn't it.
If the examination framework's not right, the curriculum's not right,
the teacher training is not fit for purpose, you can
kind of understand some kids not turning up.

Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, well we have you know. Well, all I'd say
is thank god we have self governing schools in this country,
so that we still have some schools that are actually
operating successfully because if we didn't and we were reliant
on the minister Story of Education, and look, I'm not
I'm happy to say this on your podcast because I've
already said it to the Ministry of Education. They are

(14:07):
an ineffective body who are not providing support to schools.
What they do is actually create more work for schools
rather than principles, rather than actually supporting them to be
leading effective organizations. So if we were reliant on centralized schools,
as was being proposed by the last government, I tell
you what, you know, we'd be district high School number

(14:29):
fifty five and we'd all just be heading down the
same drain to a level of mediocrity. Because you know, frankly,
if you're not accountable, it's actually not a bad place
to be, isn't it. It's just turn up nine to
three and do nothing else.

Speaker 1 (14:44):
Yeah, yeah, I get it. And we've got to have
some aspiration and provide that aspiration for the kids.

Speaker 2 (14:51):
Right, Oh, totally, totally.

Speaker 3 (14:53):
I mean we have a daily assembly and have you know,
we're in a position where the school's now one hundred
and fifty five years old and since been on well
since being on this site since nineteen sixteen, there has
been a daily assembly every day. There was a daily
assembly every day through COVID. It was something that I
was sort of insistent on that we at nine o'clock

(15:16):
every morning, because our boys understand the structure, they understand
that actually there does need to be success.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
Celebrated in the light.

Speaker 3 (15:24):
We ran online assemblies every day for a good portion
of time that I'd have to say there was humor
shared because I was isolated in our home running the
assembly against a white wall, and our staff know how
technologically capable I am, and I must say there were
some days those success those assemblies were a royal nightmare,

(15:45):
which the boys enjoyed because of my inability to operate
a laptop. But the point was every day we were
able to run an assembly online, and we did, And
I've got every single assembly written up from that COVID
time and I've put it in the history books. That
was about engagement. That was about saying so I could
say to every day to students, so I could see

(16:07):
online in our learning management system what percentage of third
formers engaged, and I could tell I could go and
so I said, third form Europe eighty nine percent attendance
yesterday according to our online records of who actually went
onto their pages blah blah blah blah blah, And then
I was able to go on to our entire leadership
team were going on during the day and logging into

(16:29):
students individual pages and putting notes on there so that
they actually knew we were engaged.

Speaker 2 (16:35):
Those sort of things.

Speaker 3 (16:37):
Don't underestimate the power of actually remaining engaged and keeping
students motivated.

Speaker 1 (16:45):
Yeah, and in almost perfect sense, there's the other I
guess chatter is along alongside attendance. We have this constant
theme of young people arriving at high school without the
necessary basic skills. I suspect COVID didn't help that, but

(17:05):
if you look at both before COVID and post COVID,
how bad is that?

Speaker 2 (17:11):
Yeah, it's a dropping rate.

Speaker 3 (17:13):
The easy tests are in maths and English or maths
English and science. Student's vocabulary has dropped. We do test
that and we can see a drop in vocabulary. We
have a primary focus across all year levels now to
increase student's vocabulary because we know the direct impact that

(17:37):
has on their ability to read and to understand. The
same can be said with maths ability. The basics and
I think one of I'm a believer now as someone
who has started as a primary school teacher for a
couple of years and having tought across both sectors, I'm

(18:00):
a true believer of if we could get enough specialist
maths and science teachers into primary schools, then we should
because the.

Speaker 2 (18:12):
Amount of lost learning.

Speaker 3 (18:13):
If you see some of the survey data of primary
schools from primary school teachers about who actually enjoys teaching mathematics,
you know that the stats are very low. So let's
put the specialists in there to support them and so
that as young people are coming through they have the
requisite skills.

Speaker 2 (18:34):
Likewise, if we go right back to my starting.

Speaker 3 (18:38):
Point, we need a prescriptive curriculum, you know, we really do.
We shouldn't be Aukland Grammar School. We can ignore the
national curriculum and have our own localized curriculum because we
know exactly where we want people to be. But we
have you know a range of schools who are going hell,
I can't get I can't get the students to turn up.
So when they turn up, I go into I need

(19:00):
to entertain them, to keep them at school, to keep
them motivated. Where So the amount that has been lost
in some of those schools is not necessarily, you know,
a teacher's fault.

Speaker 2 (19:12):
It is a problem in the community.

Speaker 1 (19:15):
Sure, so you've already touched on primary school that's where
the good education will have it start. But you don't
have a heck of a lot of control over that.
Do you simply have to work with what you're given
or do you try to have and put into the
into the primary schools and intermediate schools that feed you
and try to try to add value at that level.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
And we will certainly offer support whenever we're asked, and
we'd do that not only to contributing primary schools, but
to set up relationships with any school that had an
interest in what we're doing and if we could help
them with policies, with frameworks, et cetera. We would absolutely
do it because I think it's part of our duty.

(19:59):
It doesn't matter whether he the head of orpen grammar
school or what school you are part of. You should
be trying to contribute to the education system in New Zealand.
So if we have any form of advantage, we would
like to share it well where as competitive as hell,
but would actually like to know that others around us

(20:19):
had exactly the same content and the same ability to teach,
because then we can go head to head and the
competition's even better.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
Yeah, okay, So that's almost an open invitation to primary
and intermediate schools out there to put their hand up
and say, hey, we could do it with a bit
of helpier. And the new government of course is focusing
on back to basics at primary level, the maths and
the science and so on that you've mentioned. That's obviously
part of the solution. What else do we need to

(20:48):
be doing at that level that you're not seeing come
through into high school.

Speaker 3 (20:54):
Oh, whatever support we can give to the primary sector,
the better I think a resource should be going in there.
And if if the first place a resource should go
is into actually early childhood right from the start, if
we can get the first five years right in terms
of basic education, that so that is a starting point,

(21:14):
because otherwise we're just going we are the ambulance at
the bottom of the cliff, whether we like it or not.
Our job in a secondary sense, I see as it's
really as a preparatory environment to prepare students for either
tertiary education or their career pathway or vocational program. So
the end and really primary is exactly the same. They

(21:36):
should be providing the basic skills that are that are
that every student needs. And I just think again that
we are losing our way in that regard in terms
of the fact, well, let's recognize learning that you.

Speaker 2 (21:54):
Go a bell. It gives a bit of reality, doesn't it.

Speaker 3 (21:57):
The the learning should difficult when we're actually learning something new.

Speaker 2 (22:04):
It shouldn't always be easy.

Speaker 3 (22:06):
But we've now got a society where actually education should
be considered it should be a form of entertainment. And
when education becomes a form of entertainment, we're in all
sorts of trouble because we're actually losing in students of
basic resilience and so that when you actually have to

(22:27):
perform at a high level, you actually can't. So the
where we need to be spending our initial energy is
in primary education.

Speaker 2 (22:38):
Gee, it's a big.

Speaker 1 (22:39):
Job to do. It's year is zero to thirteen. It's
going to take a generation, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (22:44):
Yeah, it's probably now to write the position. We're at
at least a decade, maybe two decades to really pull
it back and to get the focus back on the
teaching of disciplinary knowledge. What are the skills and attributes

(23:04):
that we need students to have because if they're not
coming through the primary sector with those, then we're in
repair mode and we can improve. There's no doubt we
can progress students. But you know, we're not an environment

(23:24):
that has any of those subjects that perhaps are a
little bit more flashy, the tourisms and those sorts of subjects.
No offense to anyone on the tourism industry, but it's.

Speaker 2 (23:36):
Not our job, you know.

Speaker 3 (23:37):
I actually think those subjects when you head into a
university environment or a vocational environment, that's your job. Our
job is the math, English science, et cetera, et cetera,
and we should focus on our knitting and let others
actually do some of the more attractive stuff.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
When students actually have the maturity and.

Speaker 3 (23:56):
The skill base to be able to utilize the content
knowledge that they've gained for their own betterment.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
All makes sense to me. Where with Tim O'Connor, head
Master at Auckland Grammar will be back in a moment,
back with Tim O'Connor, the head master at Auckland Grammar School.

(24:25):
Term I'm interested in the different challenges that kids have today.
Much is made of economic hardship, which I think has
always been a factor. You know, my parents weren't wealthy.
We sort of scrapped and saved to get through school,
and I'm sure we weren't alone. But now much is
made of economic hardshippers. Do you think it's always been

(24:46):
a factor or is it worse than it's ever been.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
Oh, there's certainly poverty, there's no doubt about that. I
think part of the problem is is the digital landscape
in which young people at opera, So what they see
all of these extravagant lifestyles and opportunities of you know,

(25:11):
of how people are posing they are living, which actually
doesn't help their mental state, doesn't help them actually going
I'm happy to live with what I've got. Or this
is how my parents operated, and this is how our
household operates. They're actually looking outside their household. When I
grew up, it was what happened in our household. That

(25:33):
was That's what it was. It was no sue vices.
There was a landline, and my mother used to get
to the landline before.

Speaker 1 (25:38):
We did, especially if it was a girlfriend calling.

Speaker 2 (25:43):
Exactly. So.

Speaker 1 (25:47):
So the other thing that much is made about is
mental health issues and of course, we have permission to
talk about mental health like we never have before. Is
is that a major factor in young men? You see
five hundred and fifty I think you said new third
formers coming in or year nine students come in. So
you're seeing five hundred odd new young men or boys

(26:10):
every year. How big a fact there is mental health?
And is it getting worse or is it just that
we talk about it.

Speaker 2 (26:17):
A lot more.

Speaker 3 (26:20):
We're certainly talking about it a lot more. It's much
more open, which I think is a good thing. And
we're providing much more support than we ever have. We
for example, have four full time counselors and that's our choice.
We've put in a structure where counseling, career advice, personal
advice is all in one center, so that we're actually

(26:41):
encouraging boys to go in and to seek advice and guidance,
because the worst thing we can see is a young
man who doesn't actually ask for help, and most are
reticent to actually acknowledge it either they have a problem
or there's a problem at home, etc. So we've created
a system so where they can go in and they
don't get labeled, and we're seeing a twofold increase in

(27:06):
self referrals at the school as a consequence. But I
do think underlying all of that, where we set and
while people can say whatever though everyone I have a
view about how grammar operates and socks up and shirts
in and belts on, etc.

Speaker 2 (27:24):
And I'm a believer in that.

Speaker 3 (27:26):
But if you actually set a structure, and it doesn't
matter what happens in a young man's life outside the
school gate, it doesn't matter whether he comes from a
desold twenty two household or a minus two dissold household.

Speaker 2 (27:39):
If he can actually put on the beautiful.

Speaker 3 (27:42):
Navy blue uniform on navy blue and come into school,
then he is the same as everyone else, with the
same expectations, and he is then the same opportunities available
to him in terms of the attitude that he presents,
the effort that he puts in, and the support that
we can wrap around him without anyone necess yoroally needing
to know that he actually can build the resilience to

(28:04):
deal with some of the issues that is that are
happening in his own personal life.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, so those kids then go home at the end
of the day into a totally different environment and your
I guess your job becomes making sure those seven or
so hours that they're with you count as the remaining
part of the day that they're not.

Speaker 3 (28:27):
Yeah, will certainly help young men and families outside of
the school ours. It's not a certainly not a nine
to three environment in that regard. If they need help
and they ask for help, then we'll find a way
to ensure that they get it and so that they
can come to school, they can concentrate and they can

(28:47):
actually access education in an equitable fashion.

Speaker 1 (28:52):
Fantastic So Auckland Grammar You it's probably one of the
most prestigious headmaster roles in the country. You're you're sitting
down there in Partnerston North and a call comes in
some way, shape or form. How does it happen?

Speaker 2 (29:08):
Do you?

Speaker 1 (29:09):
Do you have headhunters or recruiters in the in the
in the school's business or does somebody tap you on
the shoulder? How did it all come about?

Speaker 3 (29:18):
I know there's a valid interview process, a relatively rigorous
one in all fairness, but I think for a school
like well, I don't think Aucland Grammar School is just
a school.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
It's a community.

Speaker 3 (29:32):
And the community of old boys and supporters of this place.
You know that they are everywhere and they have a
vested interest in ensuring that it continues to be a
lighthouse school for this style of education in the country.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
So there was certainly a range of old boys who.

Speaker 3 (29:56):
Were picking up the phone and talking to me, but
they didn't have any influence and what the outcome was
in an application process. So now it was a genuine
There was an HR company who ran the process and
I think I had three separate interviews as part of it,
and they were all here in Auckland, and they, I'd

(30:19):
have to say, board run very thorough. I think one
of the one of the funniest moments for me that
still sticks.

Speaker 2 (30:27):
In my mind. And I'm sure.

Speaker 3 (30:30):
Pitt Muir, who is well known across Auckland and as
the principle of Simpson Gresson, was on the board at
the time. And the question that sticks in my mind
from the interview process was Tim, we're in Auckland, not
in Parmesan North, something along these lines. Piple correct me,
she'll bring me when she hears this, And we're a

(30:51):
modern school serving central Auckland and we don't care about
the length of a boy's here, whether as socks are
up or as shoes are clean, what do you say
if that is the way the board presents to you?
And my response was you.

Speaker 2 (31:11):
Should just appoint the other guy.

Speaker 3 (31:15):
And I don't really think anything more about it. In
all fairness, it was just a upfront, sort of honest responses, like,
there's no way in a position, in a role like this,
you can't do anything other than live it. If you
don't live it, the boys smell it. So my response
that was my response to the HR company. The lady
is who's taking me down on the lift, said I've

(31:36):
never seen anyone self destruct like that or best wishes,
And I walked down Shortland Street thinking, oh, well what
will be will be?

Speaker 1 (31:46):
Well, there you go. But it's about standards, isn't it?

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Look it is, it's about well, it's actually.

Speaker 3 (31:53):
About what you believe in and what you know can work.
And why actually change things that ain't broke? Why do
we need to We didn't need to change the curriculum,
et cetera. We didn't need to change all these an
examination based system and we're very good at I'm looking
for silver bullet solutions, and I'd say to any principle

(32:16):
across this country, don't go hunting for the silver bullet
solution that's going to define your school because it will
actually be the unmaking of you.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
So you went to Paras North Boys High which in
itself had a pretty good reputation. How does your experiences
from that school differ too, the experience you think your
students have it or congrammar.

Speaker 3 (32:41):
Oh, light years. And that's not about Parlas North Boys
High School. That's about having left schooling system in nineteen
eighty five compared to what is offered to students in
twenty twenty three.

Speaker 2 (32:55):
Sure, I think we really.

Speaker 3 (32:57):
Are now very inclusive environments that are across a student
body that are not hierarchical. We're seeing seven form we
still use seven form, excuse those who use other language.
We see seven form students actually mentoring and guiding third
form students rather than actually, you know my sort of

(33:19):
third form experiences, you know, lining up at the touch
shop and getting bumped to the back of the queue,
you know several times over those sort of experiences I
would suggest are a rarity and shouldn't be permitted in
today's age. That everyone should be treated with respect and dignity,
and that's our aim and continues to be our aim

(33:40):
and this environment is to say, it doesn't matter where
you come from, it doesn't matter what your religious beliefs are,
what your sexual what your sexuality is, et cetera, et cetera,
that actually you get treated exactly the same, treat each
other with respect. And I think we are in the
right direction here a grammar in that regard. And I

(34:02):
think what we have as a consequence of that is
buy in from young men who are actually proud that
are part of an environment that is respectful.

Speaker 1 (34:12):
So that environment has now, as you touched on, lasted
for over one hundred and fifty years. As leaders change
culture can be lost, but somehow if you come in
and observe Auckland Grammar School from the outside, a lot
of that culture is still there. How do you maintain that?

Speaker 3 (34:34):
You need to if you're coming in as the head masters,
I think, like anything, you come in and everyone else
is there and you're the new guy, So you really
need to use the resources that are available to you
that largely other people resources. For me, that was about
connecting with some long standing masters, hit past head masters

(34:55):
John Morrison and DJ Graham, who are highly respected in
their own right and actually trying to understand why certain
things were done and then making some decisions as to
and then it does come down to what is personal
decisions relating to the strategic direction of the school.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
What needs to be kept, what needs to.

Speaker 3 (35:19):
Go, Because in an environment where there are or any culture,
where there are traditions or things that have happened in
a certain way, a lot of the time people don't
understand why they did happen in that way. So the
things that are ineffective should should go, and the rightful
things that are still purposeful need to stay.

Speaker 1 (35:41):
Do you have to work hard at culture?

Speaker 3 (35:44):
Absolutely every day. I mean unfortunate that we have an
assembly every day. Some people think not that there goes
the drummy head masters standing at the lecture and every day,
but I get to speak to twenty seven hundred boys
if they're all on time, and every single staff member
every day, and so they're typically there is typically a

(36:09):
message to be given from something that happened the day before.
So it's instant feedback, it's instant conversation about what we're
trying to achieve. And so that is a privileged position
to be in. So culture every day, absolutely, every day.

Speaker 1 (36:26):
I noticed as you know, I attended an assembly recently
and it was a Monday, and I noticed that the
sports results sort of dominated the proceedings. But the other
thing that dominated the proceedings was the behavior of your
people at those sporting contests. And you mentioned a couple

(36:46):
of times, so I think one case where the behavior
of your boys was pretty good, but you didn't hesitate
to mention. There was another instance where the behavior of
you boys wasn't so good. So that's part of what
you're talking about, isn't it that daily that day really
setting the expectations.

Speaker 2 (37:02):
Yeah, if we can transfer.

Speaker 3 (37:05):
What happens in a day to day school environment in
terms of self discipline, having a sense of belonging, preparedness
to do extra preparedness to be an ambassador of your
school and to be proud of it and.

Speaker 2 (37:19):
Represent it well.

Speaker 3 (37:21):
If we can move them into an environment where they
can do that independently, then that's critical in terms of
growing good citizens. In my mind, So if you're on
the sideline of one of our first fifteen rugby matches,
you will not hear our school boot anyone. You will
not hear them respond to opposition, even if they're given

(37:43):
a raspberry from the opposition. They will not go there
because we've already talked about it as to why we're there.
Why are we on the sideline? Why do we go
to all blacks matches to support the all blacks? So
why do we boo the opposition when they're having a
kick between the posts? We're going for a conversion or
a pen. I don't understand that mentality when we're actually

(38:03):
there to support our team and our people. So let's
not actually go to the opposition. Let's let them do
their best because we want to beat them in the
best possible environment we possibly can. And if and then
the message that comes from that for for.

Speaker 2 (38:18):
All boys, for what it should be.

Speaker 3 (38:20):
For everyone, is when you win, then win with a
bit of humility. So we talk about the fact that
even if it's a tight match, if you win, then
don't push the fence down, don't rush out onto the field.
You didn't play the game. You know you're there to
support the team who did. So you lean on the
fence and you actually give the give the team both

(38:42):
teams around of applause, because then you shaw and respect
to an opposition who actually went out there and put
their bodies on the line.

Speaker 1 (38:49):
Mm hmm. See, they're great messages for young people to
be hearing. Where with Tim O'Connor from Walton Grammar School,
we'll be back in a monment. Back with Tim O'Connor
from Auckland Grammar the headmaster there. Tim, I've had experiences

(39:14):
where seasoned executives have called me. They've told me about
their new job and then and then they've said to me,
I don't know what to do on my first day.
Can you please tell me so? Do you remember your
first day at grammar?

Speaker 3 (39:29):
Yeah? I do you know what to do?

Speaker 2 (39:35):
Well?

Speaker 3 (39:35):
I know you learn what to do pretty quickly, they
don't you do? It started with an assembly and so
I had to speak to the assembly first day and
I did say to them on my first day that
it was start of term four, so it was October.
So I did say to them that this was really
about an opportunity for me to observe them in action.

(39:57):
Autland Grammar School's a flagship school in the country. I'd
actually moved from Pami and in that holiday break the
National Cycling Champs were on and so one of my
very first duties was to read out the cycling report
from Nationals where actually Auckland Grammar School beat Palmes North

(40:20):
Boys High School to win the Sernond Ferguson Cup, and
so I had to read that out and there was
a lovely little murmuring as if to go the year
a go in the light environment now, so I do
remember that wholeheartedly, but I do remember just saying the boys,
I'm going to observe. And my second day was actually

(40:44):
probably the day I got to the left urn and said, okay,
I've finished observing. Here are some things that we need
to do, and for a flagship school, these are those things.
And so I just chatted through a couple of things
that I wanted them to do, and I by the
end of that first week I actually said to them,
I am impressed with the fact that you are prepared

(41:09):
to listen and you are prepared to act, and so
that does show me that you have pride in the
school that you're part of. Fantastic It's clear to anybody
listening that the daily assembly is one of the cornerstones
of the school. As I mentioned, I attended an assembly

(41:30):
recently at your invitation.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
There's a couple of thousand boys there and not a
mobile phone in sight, how do you do that?

Speaker 3 (41:38):
Well, never allowed mobile phones here. Again, if we're going
to actually focus on learning, which is our primary job
and the primary reason you come to talking grammar school
is to get an education. It's not sport, it's not
anything that is an extracurricular activity. If you can't be
in class and you can't attend class, and you're not
going to represent us in anything else, you can't have

(41:59):
a phone on, you can't have a phone out on campus.
So if you drive along Mountain Road about eight point
fifty in the morning, then you would think there had
been a major meeting occurring between gate three and four,
But actually it's students getting their last fixed to the
mobile phone before they enter the gates. And the reason

(42:21):
for that, well, we actually don't want them to have
any distractions so critical we work in a seven period day,
forty minute lesson short chart, every lesson every subject, every day,
and so repetitive stuff in terms of getting them to learn,
and we don't want a mobile phone. And that makes

(42:41):
in fact, we don't have laptops. We don't want students
to have laptops as a distraction ee that will provide
them to them. If we want them to use them.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
So so in that environment, does that include lunchtimes and
morning tea breaks and so yeah, so.

Speaker 3 (42:58):
Yeah, we want them to go out and support Saint
John's at lunch time by breaking a leg or you know,
playing a game of ball.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Rush out on the field.

Speaker 3 (43:07):
I saw the best game of sand or cricket from
a group of seven formers the other day. You know,
one hand, one bounce. You're actually getting these guys to engage.
But you know, we actually need boys to be physical
at lunch time so that they can get back into
class and they can concentrate. If they're not physical, then

(43:27):
we actually have more problems.

Speaker 2 (43:29):
You know.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
It's boys need to be active, they need to be moving. Yeah,
it's fantastic. We talked about the assembly. As I said,
it was a Monday admittedly, but about fifty percent of
the content was the weekend sport results. And I heard
you say during our discussion that school is more than
nine am till three pm. And I think you've already

(43:50):
said it once on this conversation already. And if we
look at the at the.

Speaker 1 (43:56):
School from the point of view of sport, music and
extra curriculm their activities, that's all obviously encouraged. Does every
student have to participate in activities outside your basic reason
for being ie education?

Speaker 2 (44:13):
I mean, that's the ideal, and.

Speaker 3 (44:17):
I've just heard it being around every third form class
in the last couple of weeks and ask them what
they are involved with, and said to the boys who
aren't by the time I come back again by the
end of this term, I want to know what you're
involved with, because we know it makes a difference. We
know they they establish different relationships with teachers, with coaches,
with other boys outside of the classroom, and they can

(44:39):
then bring that into the classroom with What we're trying
to do is grow a real sense of belonging that
they're part of something that is more than turning up
to go to the classroom every day, which is important
and the critical reason they are here, but that they're
actually getting a real sense of belonging what they're part of.
I looked at your list of prefects, which I had

(45:00):
a look online, and most had more than four extra
curricular activities.

Speaker 1 (45:05):
Some had six or seven or eight, and it wasn't
just rugby and cricket. And I'll read out some of
the model United Nations group, the Spanish debating team, the
two can't attain a mentoring program, the interact group. Not
sure what that is. The head Master's Heritage Committee. I'm
not sure what that is either. What's the heritage committee?

Speaker 3 (45:24):
The heritage committee actually look at aspects of the school's
history and then provide information to the rest of the
school on aspects of the school's past. So they'll bring
in old boys, they'll identify old boys, they'll interview them,
and then they'll actually store those in our digital archives

(45:44):
so that they're therefore for archival purposes moving forward.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
Right, and just generally so those people who are your prefects, Gee,
they're involved in a lot of stuff other than the academic,
aren't they.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
Yeah, if you want to get the best out of
this place, then you get involved, you participate. And I
keep saying to them, you don't have to be the
best here, because that's pretty difficult in a school environment
A twenty seven hundred. You know, if I was a
schoolboy again today, I'd be feeling like, ooh, oh, I'm
a pretty average Joe compared to some of the talent

(46:21):
that exists. And so if you can actually what you
find your area of passion. You find your area of
something that you are good at and when you want
to be involved with, and give it a go and
take what comes, but then respect others who actually are
excelling at other areas.

Speaker 1 (46:38):
So, outside of sport and music, how many extracurricular activities
are offered at the school? Oh, outside of sport and
performing arts, cultural, there's fifty something clubs that operate. And
ask some of those that you've talked about, community service groups,

(46:59):
prayer group, prayer groups of Christian group, philosophy group, writers group,
bridge club, all of those sorts of groups that operate there. Look,
there is something for everyone, and that's I guess. The
bit that I'd say changed from my time as a
student at high school to now is what is on

(47:21):
offer to these students is phenomenal. Yeah. Absolutely, it's a
big change from when I went to school too. I
can tell you I think you know, rugby, tennis, swimming
might and maybe a bit of cricket in the summer
might have been it. So that has changed. I noticed
that you speak a lot about about past pupils, your alumni,

(47:43):
and even at that assembly that I attended, the sporting
successes of a couple of past pupils. I always get
the impression that most schools forget about you when you leave,
and in return, most of us forget about our school
when we leave. But you clearly use the alumni to
provide an aspiration for your for your current students. Do
you keep in touch with the alumni too.

Speaker 3 (48:04):
Yeah, very strong old boys association and very strong parental
support coming from the current parents and past parents support.
So we spent a lot of time remaining connected with
the wider Grammar community. And that's not just here in
New Zealand but abroad, so we run events in Australia.

(48:26):
We have organizations the UK Friends of Grammar, the US
Friends of Grammar. These guys are connected and are totally
interested in the current day students.

Speaker 2 (48:41):
And look the very reason we've just been.

Speaker 3 (48:44):
You know, we've turned one hundred and fifty and twenty
nineteen and since that time we've been have had a
major fundraising project to try and build a new library
and a new pool, and the Grammar community pulled together
and through considerable amount of effort, raised nearly seventeen million
dollars no government funding. Again on the belief that if

(49:05):
you need to do something and sometimes you just got
to do it yourself. And the support that's evident, the
support that the school has and the connectedness is from
the old boy and past parents community that's still that
who are still engaged today and interested in that.

Speaker 2 (49:25):
Not just not so much interested.

Speaker 3 (49:27):
In saying we're the winners of this and where the
winners of that? But actually, are we still true to
who we are as a school? Is Aukan Grammar School
still a meritocracy? Are we still providing an education that
is well rounded and rigorous?

Speaker 1 (49:45):
So during my visit to the school, you showed me
the new swimming pool, which as an old swimmer, I
just wanted to sort of jump over the fence and
get into it, to be honest. And the new library funding,
as you said, of seventeen million all raised within the school,
was just going out with your begging bowl around that
alumni or was it? Did you host events and some

(50:05):
of those other sorts of fundraising initiatives.

Speaker 3 (50:09):
Many many many events. I'm actually twenty one. We have
a very strong development office who remained connected with the
Grammar community. So the fruition of this particular campaign really

(50:30):
has been through decades of communication with the Grammar community
and We had one hundred and fiftieth in twenty nineteen
and there were some fifteen hundred old boys who attended
those events. So over over ten days, twenty four events.

Speaker 2 (50:46):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (50:46):
And those the level of interest and the level of
engagement through time. We're the class of five A nine
fifty one. They turn up every couple of years for
their own reunion and meet with the current class of

(51:07):
five A. And those sorts of pods exist because of
the relationships that they have. I was gonna say boys,
but they're no longer boys, although they did act like it.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
When they were here.

Speaker 3 (51:22):
They connect with each other and then remain connected with
the school. So there is a bond amongst grammar boys
that is very very unique.

Speaker 1 (51:36):
And do those relationships often build after school? Do those
people keep in touch with each other?

Speaker 2 (51:43):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (51:44):
Lo Lockie Ferguson for example, you know as a as
a black cat, Locky will turn up into the cracket
nets because he knows that boys are practicing cricket after school.
He'll turn up into the creckt nets and just bob
those you know, and Akira will be on the sideline
off first for feen match and they'll pop into the
changing room after not not looking for any reward, not

(52:06):
looking for anything special, just remaining connected. Those sorts of
Hamish cur who just you know, one gold gold indoor champs,
you know Hamish. Through COVID, I contacted Hamish and a
contacted number of old boys and said, could you just
do a little video that we could share with the boys?

(52:27):
What do you what's your message under to them? Under
COVID and those those sorts of uh that sort of
connectivity allows boys to actually realize that they're part of
something bigger than themselves. And in today's day and age,
if we can get teenagers to actually understand that the
people who have been before them actually know a few things,

(52:49):
and I could actually listen.

Speaker 2 (52:51):
To them, then we're in it.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
We become we get ourselves into a pretty good position
where it's not all about them, because we are, whether
we like it or not, living in a bit of
a me society.

Speaker 2 (53:03):
Now.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
Yeah, it's very very interesting, and it's if only that
happened in more schools. I think I think a lot
of young people could do with the sort of role
models you're talking about. I have one more comment on
the Assembly. I was quite intrigued by the fact that
your sixth formers were asked to stay back after assembly
for a grooming check. Now, I spent the first year

(53:26):
of my high school life at Waller, a boys high school,
and a grooming check. We didn't call it that then,
but it was something about your shoes being clean, your
socks being up, and your hair not touching your collar.
Is that what an Auckland grammar grooming check is? Or
is it moved on over the years.

Speaker 3 (53:44):
No, No, you know that's about it. Why you check
that you've also all of those things? And then have
you got your black belt? Are you wearing your black belt?
And it's just if you're wearing shoes and socks that
we need to check that you're wearing guards as well.
But look what I would say out.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
Of that in the main is we have that that
might be the.

Speaker 3 (54:09):
Discipline component, but that's just a reminder. The majority of
our young men do what they do now because they
believe in the school that they're part of. We've got
past the days you know of when I was at school,
corporal punishment was still in place.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
We've got past those days.

Speaker 3 (54:29):
And you can't actually approach teenagers in a manner of
this is what you are going to do.

Speaker 2 (54:36):
You have to give them.

Speaker 3 (54:37):
They have to have a story, and they need to
understand what they're part of and why they're doing it.
And if they believe you, and their little detector isn't
actually going off that you're full of nonsense, then they
will actually follow what they believe to have some basic integrity.
I don't think I don't think human beings have changed

(54:57):
that much. We all want to be part of something,
and we all want to belong and we want to
be part of something.

Speaker 2 (55:03):
That is successful.

Speaker 3 (55:04):
So what we're teaching them is you actually have to
make some sacrifices in order to be part of that.
It's not just the guys who cross stage who are
the ones we're celebrating. Every single one of us is
an ambassador of Auckland Grammar School. So if you're proud
of the school you're part of, then show it brilliant.

Speaker 1 (55:25):
We're talking education and standards and disciplined with Tim O'Connor,
Headmaster and Auckland Grammar will be back in a moment
with Tim O'Connor, Tim I want to talk about leadership

(55:48):
skills and the challenges rather than the challenges of running
a school. The challenges of running a team and your staff.
You've got about two hundred and fifty staff in total,
I think one hundred and seventy or so. In teaching role,
any leader is constantly under precire or recruit good people.
I imagine in teaching that gets pretty challenging sometimes. How
do you plan for recruitment?

Speaker 3 (56:10):
As soon as I find a good teacher, I appoint them,
whether I need them or not. And I'll give you
an example, Bruce, We've already appointed a physics teacher from
the UK for the start of next year, because while
I don't actually have a vacancy, there will be one,
yeah by the time I headed next year. If I

(56:31):
wait till the time someone is leaving, then I won't
actually necessarily get access to the quality of applicant I want.
So we'll appoint people as soon as we find someone
who is a right fit with the right level of
experience and specialist knowledge.

Speaker 1 (56:49):
So you talk about fit and experience and knowledge. I
was going to ask, what do you look for in
the people you recruit.

Speaker 3 (56:56):
I look for people who have firstly done a little
bit of homework on us and understand what they're coming to.
Because as we've already discussed in this podcast. Grammar has
a specific as a specific style of education. So you
need to understand what you're coming to and if you
haven't done your homework, then probably it isn't the place

(57:17):
for you. So you actually need to understand that you're
coming This isn't again a nine to three environment. This
is an environment where you are going to be teaching
across to qualification pathways, you are going to be involved
in extracurricular activities. You do need to understand the formality
of the environment and the level of self discipline that
we expect from students. You and you should understand that

(57:39):
actually you can teach here. You're going to get on
with it. You're not going to have to be managing students.
You're going to teach them. So we're looking for all
of those those I guess we're looking for the character
in the person we've already ticked off largely that they
have the specialist knowledge. We might throw on a few,
you know, test tube tests for the odd science teacher,

(57:59):
but than that.

Speaker 2 (58:00):
Would actually look at their character and their attitude.

Speaker 1 (58:03):
And you clearly have expectations of the students beyond the classroom.
Do you have expectations of the teachers beyond the classroom
as well.

Speaker 2 (58:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:11):
Absolutely, we're asking every teacher to be involved with us
summer and our winter activity. So to two activities, whether
that's sport or one of those clubs or performing arts, etc. Yeah,
one each time, one each season. But you know, we're
blessed again we've got people staff here who just buy
into the culture and who are just doing multiple things

(58:33):
and really are true teachers are part of a vocation
and we're fortunate to have those sorts of people in
our environment.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
Fantastic. Some would argue that Auckland Grammar has a privileged
position as a school when it comes to recruiting or
you know, planning for the way forward. If we think
about schools other than Auckland Grammar, how to how do
bad school and we've got we've obviously got some troubled
schools out there and I don't want to label them,
but how do bad schools attract good teachers?

Speaker 3 (59:08):
Look in exactly the same way as we do. We
place advertisements out there and invite applications. It's pretty rare
that we're not going out there approaching people for positions
in this environment. For most most of our teaching positions.
We're not using HR companies and the like. We're simply

(59:30):
following advertise advertising processes ourselves. I think, just getting out
there and being proactive and wherever you can talking to
subject organizations or we're looking for a director or library
if anyone's out there at the moment. And so we'll
go not only into and to seek, but we'll go
to SLANSA, you know, the local organization.

Speaker 2 (59:50):
So we'll look for.

Speaker 3 (59:53):
Whatever areas that we can actually advertise where it's not
costing us anything.

Speaker 2 (59:59):
Sure, and what.

Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
About good principles, because there's no question in my mind
that any organization is only as good as its leadership.
Are there plenty of good principles out there?

Speaker 2 (01:00:11):
Yeah, there are, there are, There are a lot of people.

Speaker 3 (01:00:14):
I mean, most of my associations are now with principles
across Auckland, and we've got top class We're blessed across
Auckland in a secondary environment, and that that's for my
knowledge bases. We're blessed with the quality of principles and
the quality of schools across Auckland, Schools that are really
focused on providing students with the best opportunities possible.

Speaker 2 (01:00:37):
No doubt about it.

Speaker 1 (01:00:39):
You mentioned manure were primary to me when we spoke
the other day. So there's an example of a school
in a low decil area getting great results. What do
you see schools like that doing differently?

Speaker 3 (01:00:53):
I think it's I think it's N's leadership, Ian Taylor's
leadership of that school where he's just he's leading by example.
He's making the most of the opportunities that are given
to him. He's held the line in terms of the
curriculum that will be delivered. He's got teachers, is teaching
community and behind him, and he's got his parent community
and behind him.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
I mean, he's done a great job.

Speaker 3 (01:01:17):
And principles like that deserve every bit of praise that
is available to be given because he is making one
hell of a difference, and he's.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Making a difference to young people who need someone to
make a difference for them.

Speaker 2 (01:01:33):
I suspect, yeah, absolutely absolutely.

Speaker 1 (01:01:37):
What are the highlights that are role like yours? What
do you celebrate? Is it sports results or exam results
or a single child who breaks a cycle? What are
the things that you sort of have a quiet little
fist pump to yourself. And so we're doing a good
job here.

Speaker 3 (01:01:52):
Ah, Look, there's one of those sort of things every
day where.

Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
You just.

Speaker 3 (01:01:57):
The privilege in this position is that we get I
get to connect with boys every day. You know, we're
out in the grounds at lunchtime every day talking to boys,
observing what's happening. We're in and out of classrooms so
we can actually see see them in action. So you

(01:02:17):
end up actually connected to young people and who while
they don't think we're funny, we we do. And we
have plenty of good days. You know, they make us smile.
Most days. They will be saying something to us, Someone
will be saying something to us that you go, that's

(01:02:38):
that's why I do this job, you know, it's just
it is. We had a the other day, an assembly
for anyone who understands rowing.

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
I just finished the notices and I set my bit
of the assembly.

Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
I sat down and a rower who was sitting in
the very front row in seven A fell asleep and
assembly and I thought, this is this is going to
be interesting for him, isn't it? And he sort of
as he woke up, his eyes caught mine, and I
had a right smile on my face, and he put
his hands over his face, going oh my god. And

(01:03:12):
you know we were able to actually laugh about that
at a regatter on the weekend. So there becomes points
of connection, you know, and you carry on. Those sorts
of points of connection carry on for life. And that's
a privileged position that we're in leading schools as we
actually develop relationships that we continue, you know, beyond the
tenure that we have in the position.

Speaker 1 (01:03:34):
Yeah. Absolutely, I had a similar connection with my principal
of my school at Automati College all those years ago.
He was a one off, a very special character, and
many years later at a school reunion, I caught up
with him and it was just like yesterday. And you value,
you certainly value those moments as a student and later

(01:03:56):
as a growing up. You've got interests outside school. Of course,
you've got a family, You've got three kids all in
their twenties. Yourself, you've had interests outside school in terms
of umpiring hockey in particular national and international level. What
do you take from those sort of experiences to the
school and what do you take from the school to

(01:04:16):
into those sort of experiences, Because particularly I would have
thought umpiring hockey had its similarities with running a school,
just a smaller just a smaller group of players.

Speaker 3 (01:04:27):
Yeah. I actually gave up umpiring at an international level
when I became the rector at Pami Boys because it
was just too much man management. Yeah, because they are
absolutely so. The techniques you use and how to actually,
you know, apply the rules fairly in a game of
any sport are very similar. You're actually looking for ways

(01:04:48):
to get people to do what you want them to
do so you can provide a safe sort of environment,
and so you're not necessarily wanting to police them, so
you're looking for other techniques. So, yep, I I gave
up once I started leading Parmi Boys and haven't gone
back to hockey. Whether I do probably be too old

(01:05:09):
and you know, out of the loop by the time
I finish. But the you know, I think your own
kids keep you honest too.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
I think.

Speaker 3 (01:05:22):
I you know, I've got two sons and a daughter,
and they would.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
Always give you feedback.

Speaker 3 (01:05:30):
And from the two boys who came through Grammar would
never give me feedback about anything that was going on
the school day. They would make sort of sarcastic sort
of comments perhaps about some aspect of my style, which
lets you sort of just put the mirror up to

(01:05:50):
yourself and reflect on whether or not if that's an observation,
then is there something that you can alter because you've
been seen in a certain way. So it's quite a
privilege to have your own children be able to see
you in a workplace and then be able to comment.
I don't know that they particularly always enjoyed the fact

(01:06:11):
that we were in the same environment all the time.

Speaker 1 (01:06:15):
But you wouldn't be the first parent to have your
children comment about your style.

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
No, they had one on one sort of jokes, right,
you know, those sort of things apparently are unfashionable.

Speaker 1 (01:06:28):
What do you think is your best leadership skill?

Speaker 3 (01:06:37):
Well, a little bit of humor I think is needed
in leadership.

Speaker 2 (01:06:41):
But I think.

Speaker 3 (01:06:44):
One thing I can do is appoint people who are
better than me, and I reckon any environment, if you
can appoint people better than you are and build a
team around them, then you're actually doing it for the
organization rather than for yourself.

Speaker 2 (01:06:59):
And I've been fortunate to be able to do that.

Speaker 3 (01:07:02):
The entire leadership team who I've appointed here have a
skill base that that I don't, and so I can
utilize and tap into all of their skills to the
advantage of this community. And then then I can take
the credit, Ruth. So you know there's one round.

Speaker 1 (01:07:19):
I suspect you're you're better at sharing the credit than
you're letting on. I have to ask you this question.
I think I could probably guess at what the answer is.
But it's a question I ask every guest on Leaders
getting coffee. If you could be the New Zealand Prime
Minister for a day, what's the one thing you'd like.

Speaker 2 (01:07:36):
To do.

Speaker 3 (01:07:39):
If it came down to just the one, I would
love to see education and health become a political and
for there to be a strategic direction forged in across
Parliament and across parties to actually say here is the

(01:08:01):
agreed direction and in our sense for education, but I
equally think health should be the same, so that we
can actually keep progressing forward in that direction. We give
those involved with both sectors surety and an understanding of
what they're building to, rather than waiting for the next

(01:08:21):
government to make change.

Speaker 2 (01:08:23):
And as part of.

Speaker 3 (01:08:24):
That, I would fire the entire Ministry of Education and
start again because that organization is no longer fit for purpose.

Speaker 1 (01:08:35):
Well that's a reasonably that's a reasonably big day. If
you only had one day as Prime Minister, you're going
to be busy. You've talked about a need for the librarian,
for a new librarian before we wrap up. It's I
guess it's an opportunity for you to give the school
a bit of a plug. What are you fundraising for
at the moment.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Well, we've just taken a breather, actually, because but there
is always something. You know, the pool that we built
as an outdoor pool, we've designed it in a manner
that we could put a roof on it.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
We'd love to be able to put a roof on it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:08):
There are a myriad of projects that are in the
in the pipeline for us to be moving forward with.
In fact, we have we're not only developed a twenty
five year master campus plan, we've developed a twenty five
year fundraising plan and alongside that a ten year digital plan,
so that we can actually go out to the community

(01:09:30):
and say, if you're interested, come and talk to us
because there is something that we are trying to do
that will probably align with what you have an area
of interest in too, so please come and help fantastic.

Speaker 1 (01:09:45):
Well, there's the invitation, folks, those of you out there listening.
If you're a Grammar our boy or you've got boys
who might end up but Grammar as they grow up.
I'm sure Tim would love to see you. Tim, it's
been a pleasure. Thank you for joining us or leaders
Getting cam. Thank you for sharing your perspective on education.
You've been pretty forthright and I appreciate that because it

(01:10:07):
is one of the most important functions of our society,
and we appreciate you sharing your leadership's experiences with us.
Like all of our leaders, your experiences are unique and
probably you know, there's a lot of us that are
in business and we can only imagine what you turn
up to every day, and so those unique experiences. Hopefully
our listeners today have seen a little window into your

(01:10:30):
life and we certainly appreciate the opportunity to listen to
your views. So Tim O'Connor, head Master and Auckland Grammar,
thanks for joining us on leaders getting Coffee.

Speaker 2 (01:10:39):
Thanks Bruce.

Speaker 1 (01:10:41):
Finally, my leadership tip of the week, folks, and it
comes from that assembly I attended where Tim provides a
thought for the day to his students, and he does
that every day, so he's got to come up with
a couple of hundred of those a year. I don't
know where he finds them all from, but when I attended,
it was short and sweet like this. If you insist
on the best, you'll probably get it. If you insist

(01:11:04):
on the best, you'll probably get it. And gee, we've
heard from a leader today who does insist on the best.
And there's lessons in there are plenty for all of us.
That's about it from us, Thanks again for joining us
on leaders Getting Coffee Episode fifteen already. Believe it or not,
our guest has been Tim O'Connor. If you have any feedback,
please get in touch at info at leaders gettin coffee

(01:11:26):
dot com. Don't forget our favorite charity is Bike for Blokes,
and we'll see you soon for another terrific leadership story
with another fantastic guest. Until then, have a great couple
of weeks and we'll catch it next time.