Episode 16: Grant Webster

In Leaders Getting Coffee episode 16, our guest is Webster, the CEO of Tourism Holdings Limited.

Grant was named CEO of the Year at the 2023 Deloitte Top 200 business awards last year and his leadership story is both impressive and inspiring.

Of course the tourism industry has taken a hammering in the wake of the COVID 19 enforced lockdowns and Grant gives us a unique perspective on the status of our recovery and the future outlook for the sector.

The discussion covers the role of the government in enhancing our tourism offer, the customer experience we deliver for tourists, and the age old argument about the benefits of high value short term tourists versus long term low value visitors.

And we learn how to continue to grow the tourism pie, including the opportunity to embrace the stuff that is uniquely New Zealand, namely our cultural identify and our authenticity as we seek to attract increasing tourist numbers to our shores. 

And with tourism businesses operating around the world, you might be surprised to hear about Grant Webster’s favourite camper van trip.

Yet again, Leaders Getting Coffee unveils a unique and fascinating leadership story with one of our longest serving CEO’s.

Download it here.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:15):
Hi everyone.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
My name is Bruce Cottrell and it's great to welcome
you back to Leaders Getting Coffee for episode sixteen.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Thanks for joining us.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
We're going to kick off with something a bit different
this time because last week I received a letter from
a listener that stood out from all the rest. He
referred to our discussion with ten B. Powell back in
episode fourteen, and his letter included the following excerpt. I
referred to the part of your podcast with ten B.
Powell where he said his prostate cancer diagnosis was established

(00:44):
through a physical examination, and that really struck a chord
with me because I had two brothers who had prostate cancer,
and I was very vigilant thereafter getting a yearly PSA
and physical check. My PSA level was always one year
after year for decades. Then on one check, my wonderful
thorough doctor noticed a slight change in the feel of
the prostate. I commenced active surveillance and the PSA stayed

(01:08):
at one, but the tumor grew fast forward. It was
time for an intervention, and I had a robotic prostate
ectomy eighteen months ago and so far unclear. So the
point is the physical checkup probably saved my life. I
love your podcasts and your thought provoking Herald opinion pieces
and appreciate everything you do with bike for blokes, kind regards, etc.

(01:32):
Understandably the writer wished to remain anonymous, but what a
great message for men out there. Guys, if you're over fifty,
get the prostate check and if you have a family
history and you're under fifty, even get a checkup. And
to our listener who shared his story with me, you
know who you are. Thanks for giving us permission to
share your story. As usual, I've had a couple of

(01:52):
columns out in the last couple of weeks.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
The New Zealand Herald on the sixteenth.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
March ran under the headline time for the Government to
sharpen its budgeting skill. The article discusses the fact that
we finally have government ministers and officials acknowledging that we
can't afford to live like we have been and so
in the column, I'm suggesting that our cost reduction targets
may have to be more aggressive than what has been
telegraphed to date. The other column ran on Newstalk Zedb's

(02:18):
site last week. It was entitled when languages used to
divide many of our politicians, particularly those in opposition parties,
are using language to drive us apart rather than.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
Bring us together.

Speaker 2 (02:29):
The reality is that we don't have a white supremist government,
nor are we living in a dictatorship, and the new
government's changes don't constitute genocide or racism. You probably get
the idea, but if you want to have a look
at the columns, go to my website at dubdubdub dot
Bruce Kottrell dot com, Forward Slash Blog, or check out
the articles on the websites of the New Zealand Herald

(02:50):
or ZB plus. Thanks again for being with us. We'll
be back shortly with this week's guest, and we're talking tourism.

Speaker 1 (03:07):
Welcome back to lead us getting coffee.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
We all know how important tourism is to the economic
well being of a country like New Zealand, and we
know how important tourism is to Kiwis. Most of us
are typically born with the travel bug inside of us,
and we can't wait to get away.

Speaker 1 (03:21):
This week's gest is a person who spent.

Speaker 2 (03:23):
The majority of his career in and around that tourism sector.
He's not a household name, but he probably should be.
His name is Grant Webster and he's the cel CEO
of THHL. That's a mouthful. The CEO of THHL or
otherwise known as Tourism Holdings Limited, and last year he
was awarded the CEO of the Year Award for twenty

(03:44):
twenty three at the New Zealand Deloitte Top two hundred Awards,
and his company was a finalist in the Company.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
Of the Year.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Grant was originally appointed as the Chief Executive Officer of
THHL way back in December two thousand and eight, so
he's been sitting in that role for near on sixty
or so years, and he served in that time on
various industry and government bodies, including nine years on the
Tourism Industry at RAH Board, during which time he was
both the deputy chair and the chair, and in twenty

(04:11):
twenty he was the co chair of the New Zealand Government's.

Speaker 1 (04:14):
Tourism Futures Task Force.

Speaker 2 (04:16):
Before joining THHL, he was the general manager for Auckland
at sky City Group and earlier on at Cutters Teeth
in the grocery business with Woolworths. He holds a Bachelor
of Commerce degree from Victoria University and he's completed executive
studies at the INCIAD Advanced Management Program in Europe and
Monash University in Melbourne. He's got four kids keeping him busy.

(04:38):
He's a part time Jim Attend He's like me, a
frustrated golfer and outside of THHL, he also sits.

Speaker 1 (04:45):
On the board of Lesmill's Holdings, New Zealand.

Speaker 2 (04:48):
For those of you listening who don't know much about THHL,
go look them up. Most of us would associate them
with Camper vansvs as are somewhat times called. They're listed
on the New Zealand Exchange and the Australian Exchange and
they designed, build, rent and sell camp evans. They have
operations in New Zealand, Australia, the UK, Europe, the USA

(05:09):
and Canada, and franchises in Southern Africa and Japan, making
them a truly international New Zealand company. And they represent
over thirty brands, including some that will have heard of Kia, Britz, Telva,
Winnebago just to name a few. I challenge you to
watch the videos on their website and not want to
jump into a Campa van and head off into the
unknown yourself. So it is a great pleasure to welcome

(05:32):
Grant Webster to lead us get in coffee, giddo.

Speaker 3 (05:34):
Grunt Hey, Bruce, thank you very much. And have we
got you in a motor home holiday yet?

Speaker 2 (05:40):
You have during COVID when you carved up the prices,
I snuck away for a week and had a lot
of fun. I didn't get very far, but I did.
I got down to the Corimandel and I had a
good time.

Speaker 3 (05:53):
Brilliant, brilliant nice here. Well, we'll look to welcoming you
back and all your listeners as well.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Yeah, good stuff. And you're not a coffee drinker?

Speaker 3 (06:02):
No, Well, people say that I'm dangerous enough without coffee,
but I do enjoy a good cup of tea as well.
But you're a coffee drinker. What's your favorite, Bruce? What's
you go to?

Speaker 2 (06:13):
My go to is a double strength flat white and
I can only handle one a day.

Speaker 1 (06:19):
Any more than that and I get a bit quivery too.

Speaker 3 (06:21):
So real.

Speaker 2 (06:22):
So let's talk about the Deloitte Top two hundred Awards,
the Pinnacle of New Zealand Business Awards. Both the company
and you were nominated in your respective categories. The company
didn't win, but you did. From what I know about
your personality. I'm guessing that you might have preferred it
the other way around. Is that a fair comment?

Speaker 3 (06:43):
Yeah, that's absolutely fair. Yeah, I would would much rather
have it been the Company of the Year. I don't think.
I don't think there's been too many situations or any
at all where both the Company of the Year and
the CEO of the Year have come from the same company.
It must be something and the judging criteria. Who knows,
But you certainly would have preferred that the company to

(07:04):
get the accolades because at the end of the day,
I know in my heart that's the only reason why
I received anything. It's the company performance. As the team.

Speaker 1 (07:11):
Well, you're probably big, a bit modest.

Speaker 2 (07:13):
Have you ever won a big award personally before like that?

Speaker 3 (07:17):
Not of that magnitude, No, not at all. A few
years ago, a number of years ago now, THHL won
the Most Improved Company Award at the Deloitte Award, which
is one of those ones that is a bit interesting,
right because the last time before that that I won
the most Improved award was a high school for the
first eleven cricket team. We all know what the most

(07:41):
ward meant. Back then, I just went through really bad
before exactly went from batting at number eleven to number
ten most improved. But nevertheless, so it was something pretty special.
This for sure.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
As you go into a leadership role, certainly based on
my experience and I suspect yours, you never go into
those roles expecting personal plaudits.

Speaker 1 (08:06):
How does how does it feel when it happens.

Speaker 3 (08:11):
For me? Just just embarrassing to be to be honest, Yeah,
it's it's it's sort of I guess some people call
it imposter syndrome. You know, when you when you're sort
of you feel like, how can that be me? I've
I've had the pleasure of attending those awards for for
well over a decade, and the kind of people who

(08:33):
have won those awards historically you look up and look
up up to and admire and to think that that
was me that received that doesn't doesn't feel quite right.
But but yeah, very very privileged to to to get
that award. As I say, more on behalf of the
company from my perspective, But yeah, pretty cool. Yeah, good stuff.

Speaker 2 (08:53):
Well, relatedly, please accept our congratulations. I think from the
outside looking and you might not feel deserved it, but
I certainly think it was very worthy and speaking to
the people that I know are close to you and
the business, I know there's a lot of people who
thought you were very worthy recipient. So well done, well,
thank you, thank you. What do you think is the

(09:13):
key to that personal success? You know, you don't sit
in a CEO job in this dy and age for
sixteen years unless you're doing a few things right. What
do you think is the key in terms of the
way you run your life and run your job.

Speaker 3 (09:28):
I think it is different in different situations, but for
my situation, I think the key, the key word is resilience.
When you think about the fact that I was lucky
enough to get the CEO position right on the start
of the GFC, so I literally got that got the
ball passed as the world was collapsing from that perspective,

(09:51):
so a number of really hard years there. Then you
go through all the bits and pieces that were being
through obviously COVID, and then coming out of that merger
that we completed in December twenty twenty two was an
eighteen month process and it was, from what we've been told,
the longest running successful application to the New Zealand Commics Commission.

(10:15):
So I'm not sure again that that's an accolade that
you really want to hod onto. But that's again that
resilience and perseverance through those times. And internally, if you
ask people internally, they say that I'm inherently optimistic and open.
So I think those are probably for our situation, for
the situation I've been, and that's probably what's kept me going.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
And you're still going.

Speaker 2 (10:40):
So after sixteen years and the long I didn't know
about the longest successful commerce commission application, but that certainly
says something I mentioned in my introduction, the importance of
tourism in the lives of New Zealanders. It's certainly critical
in our economy. At its peak, was it almost took
overtook agriculture, I think in terms of the offshore receipts

(11:04):
that it generated.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
What's your view of the importance of tourism to New Zealand.
How do you see it?

Speaker 3 (11:12):
Yeah, Well, so I'm biased. I've always got to acknowledge that,
right because I've sure been part of the industry for
a long period of time. But I really do think
it's critical and I think that it's that service side
if those export earnings make it really a key part
of our export growth. You know, this national government or

(11:33):
coalition government has set a goal to double export earnings
over the next ten years, is what I've heard. And
when you think about that and you think is to
say agriculture, you think about some of our other exports,
and you think what it would take to double, you know,
you think about the land that needs to be converted,
if you think about the warehouses, the pack houses, the shipping,

(11:55):
the everything else that needs to go into that infrastructure
to enable a doubling and performs from a terrorism perspective,
it's actually leveraging infrastructure that already exists, and I think
that can be that's where we can really turbo charge
the economy. People think, you know, geez, we're really big
in tourism. We're point six market share point six market

(12:19):
share of long haul of world tourism. So we're tiny.
And if you look at where we sit on a
on a visitor per capita or visited per square meter,
where we're really really lowly ranked. So the question that
comes from all of that then is how do you
do it in a sustainable way? How do you do

(12:41):
it in a socially acceptable way? And that's where I
think there's more really interesting discussions. You know, how can
we bring our culture and take it to the world
and better the world because of it?

Speaker 1 (12:55):
Fantastic.

Speaker 2 (12:56):
So we know that the industry fell off a cliff
as a result of COVID. We're a lot all the
way away from a lockdown world. You've seen us through
the last couple of years. How's the recovery going.

Speaker 3 (13:08):
Yeah, So the way that sort of talk about it
in some situations is that, you know, we did as
we say, we got locked to the floor, right, and
we were on the ground, and as an industry we
survived there. There might have been the defibrillator might have
been sitting right next to us, but it didn't have
to be used in most cases. And indeed, from a
THL perspective, we were one of the very very few

(13:30):
tourism companies around the world who didn't go to shareholders
to raise equity. And that was a separate that's a
separate sort of topic, but a but a brave kind
of view from our board and the right one ultimately
in hindsight. So we were on the ground and we're
standing up. Are we standing up straight? We're standing up tall,

(13:51):
We're standing up as high as we were before. No,
not yet, but we're standing up. So what that means
from a numbers perspective is we're depending on the months,
depending on the season, but we're roughly in that eighty
something percent recovery in terms of visitation as a country.

Speaker 2 (14:07):
And that number bounced around, And is that based on
numbers of people levels of spending? How is that eighty
percent interpreted? That's that's numbers of people spenders. Is definitely
for most organizations spenders up, so that average spend per
visitor that and we see it in the daily rates

(14:29):
that we pay for rental cars, motor homes, hotels, so forth,
and so on. So most most parts of the industry
will be above pre COVID revenue levels.

Speaker 3 (14:41):
Not all, but but yeah, we've got that. We've got
that room to move from a visitation perspective and or
from a visitor perspective, we airline capacity is getting there,
will probably hit one hundred percent of their capacity sometime
this year for most, for most airport and comparing to

(15:01):
around the world. Look, we're pretty well placed in a
very similar way to the way that we opened up
post COVID. Right, So the US North America was the
first wife. They're back to one hundred percent of air capacity.
Canada is actually about one hundred and two a couple
of months ago. Australia getting there as well, and slightly

(15:23):
ahead of US. So New Zealand's probably slightly behind the
rest of the world from that perspective. Obviously not as
far behind as the likes of China, but we're getting
there and most productions are twenty twenty five will be
where we get back to the pre COVID levels and
can stop talking about pre COVID versus post COVID, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
Which we're all desperate to do. I was in Australia
over the weekend.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
I was staggered at the number of American airlines that
are suddenly at Sydney Airport. So you mentioned that they
are at capacity back to capacity in the US. Are
we seeing the American airlines sort of reaching their limbs
further and more quickly than they might have done before.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
Yeah, very much so. So the big dynamic that's happened
there is China US, so pre COVID China US. There's
there's a number of different figures that have been floated around,
but call it a few hundred so we've to three
four or five hundred flights per week between China and
the US, and at the moment that's been growing but
is still setting it around fifty, right, so fifty VERSUA

(16:28):
three four five hundred depending on who you talk to,
So that that US traffic is going elsewhere, and definitely
Australia and New Zealand to the recipients. So there is
more capacity coming into New Zealand now from the US
than what there was pre COVID, and those flight prices
are certainly cheaper, and it's it's competitive, and that's that's
driving the most Americans down here than probably that will

(16:52):
never had in the coming twelve months.

Speaker 1 (16:54):
Fantastic.

Speaker 2 (16:55):
Well, it's good to hear from somebody who's who's got
their feet in the ground, because these statistics often sort
of flow past us and you hear people saying, oh,
back to eighty percent of what we were, and you go, oh, yeah,
I wonder if we really are, but you've certainly validated that.
What do you think we do really well in attracting
visitors to this country.

Speaker 3 (17:15):
So it's been around for a very long time now,
it's coming up to twenty years of of one hundred
percent pure in New Zealand, and it's a brain that
resonates globally and it is what we're about. And then
when you add to that our cultural identity and authenticity,
so the way that we bring forward in a global sense,

(17:38):
it's obviously talking about First Nations and indigenous culture, the
way that we are integrated as a society. Even though
we've got some current divisive stuff going on from a
political perspective, the reality is we actually really do embrace
a lot of stuff in New Zealand as New Zealand
is that you don't see in other countries on the world.

(18:00):
If you look at Canada, the US, even Australia is
behind and that integrated nature and I think that's something
really powerful. It's something that we're proud of and it's
something that people enjoy and see and experience when they're here.
We're seen as a really authentic destination. So you put
all that together and we're in a good places. That
said low market share, so we've got to be careful.

(18:24):
We can't take things for granted. We need tourism in
New Zealand to be well funded, to be doing a
good job, because no individual business can compete at that
top of the funnel. So we need governments to do
so that's the way the tourism industry works globally.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
And do we do that well enough?

Speaker 3 (18:44):
So we punch above our weight without a doubt, without
a doubt. So we do it really well. We do
the marketing well, we do the creation of those active
considerers that are thinking about New Zealand because it does
take some time, right, people don't just go on, let's
go to New Zealand next year from Europe. It's often
years of thought and planning in that dreaming and planning phase.

(19:07):
So we do it really well. But that we need
when we think about government, we need the government to
continue to recognize that that is something that we've got
to invest in. So touristy New Zealand needs good funding,
not the cuts that it's facing at the moment.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
Yeah, okay, what are the things we could do better
as a country in terms of that international perspective and
how we're regarded and how we market.

Speaker 3 (19:33):
Yeah. Look, look, I sometimes say things a little bit
differently to what others in the industry do, but I
think there's a couple of things we've got to continue
to invest in. Product so one of the things that happens.
Let's just use hotels or motor homes if you like,
as an example. In a normal sort of operating environment,

(19:54):
a hotel life should be around seven years before it
gets refirved. A motor home in New Zealand would be
four to five years before you sell it and replace.
The risk during the COVID period is obviously people were
in a place where they couldn't spend on those refirms,
and you have two or three years of missing that

(20:15):
capital expenditure and your product quality starts to go down.
You don't see it straight away, you see it in
twenty twenty seven, twenty eight, twenty nine. So investment in
product is key. Same thing for new product and new
adventure product, new nature products, doesn't matter where it is.
We had three years of all that stopping, So new
product and investing in product, both from a quality perspective

(20:39):
and new innovation is key. Then I think that the
sustainability and cultural awareness are the other two things. So
there was a point where the word growth was a
nasty word in tourism. In fact that you would argue
that the previous government really was focused on degrowth when

(20:59):
it came and to tourism. You could argue that I
certainly would.

Speaker 1 (21:05):
You're allowed. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (21:07):
So, so sustainable growth is really really key, and if
I can sidetrack on that just for a second, sure,
it's it's a really interesting one, right because people go, well,
if we just stop people coming, then that's that's, you know,
the best way to go. We're not spending that carbon
emissions on flights and they're not creating any impact on

(21:30):
our infrastructure, so forth and so on. But I think
the way that we've got to look at that is
we definitely, as you said before, this industry used to
create more export earnings than agriculture, than dairy and it
will do again. It is on track too, and that's
a good benefit to us as a country. How we
do that sustainably is key, and importantly within that, I

(21:53):
think we have a story to tell. We actually have.
This might set a bit a bit esoterical, but we
have an ability, I think, to influence people and change
the way they see things in the world. And one
of the ways we can do that is people come
here and experience our openness, experience our love of the environment, nature,

(22:15):
the way we do things, and take that forward to
the rest of the world and create a net benefit
to the world. From that perspective, I mean, if you
take something really as simple we had taken on board
as a country recycling bins in all public places right,
waste recycle, organic, They're everywhere.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
Yep.

Speaker 3 (22:36):
There's many countries in the world where they just don't exist.
Everything's going in the old classic big overfilling rubbish bins
the US, even Australia, China. And if we just it's
a very simple, basic one, but if we can influence
the world, then we're actually bettering the world and adding

(22:56):
to the economy.

Speaker 1 (22:57):
And museum brilliant and I totally agree with that.

Speaker 2 (23:03):
It's interesting what you comment about investment in the product.
And as you know, I've done a couple of charity
bike rides from running too the country to the other
and although only a year apart, in the last couple
of years, I did notice that already some of that
stock out there, as you call it, is starting to

(23:24):
look a bit tired, and the poor old motelia or
the restaurantur who's had a rough few years, they can't
afford to do it up or maintain it the way
it used to be. I will throw a coat of
paint around because are still getting back on their feet.
So it is interesting how those little things become visible
very quickly.

Speaker 3 (23:41):
I agree with you. I agree with your wholeheartedly. It
would be really interesting to see the government look at
tourism and say, hey, look, one of the things we
can do is accelerated appreciation on capital expenditure, so you
can actually get that tax benefit and actually improve your
cashplaws changed the amount of money that the government gets

(24:03):
from an individual. It's just really the timing of that
so that we get the timing benefit. And we've seen
that work really effectively overseas. The US and Australia in
particular have done that accelerated depreciation and it just means
people go, oh, geez, right, well, we'll invest more because
it makes financial sense in the short term and you
just get that momentum, that accelerated benefit, and that makes

(24:26):
a huge difference.

Speaker 1 (24:28):
Good idea.

Speaker 2 (24:29):
We should do that and exporting our values to the world,
you know, as you say, notwithstanding, notwithstanding some of our
ups and downs at the moment, which I think are
as much as anything driven politically, and therefore I think
they'll die down over time because deep down the great
majority of Kiwis are good people with good values.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
If we can export some of that to the.

Speaker 2 (24:49):
Rest of the world, You're right, we can play our
part in changing the world.

Speaker 3 (24:53):
Yeah, and I think it's one of the best ways
we can play a part. Right. Can we afford to
you know, don't we make five hundred million dollars to
sustainable aviation fuel funding around the world? Probably not, we can't.
But can we give our mindset? Can we give our intellect?
And can we give our culture and values? As you say,
I love that term exporting our values. I think that's

(25:15):
a great one. I'll steal that if you don't mind, Bruce.

Speaker 1 (25:18):
Go for your life.

Speaker 2 (25:19):
Is our customer experience good enough? So when people get here,
do we do a good enough job of looking after them?

Speaker 3 (25:26):
The short answer is yes, because our nper scores as
a country are really high, our satisfaction rates are really high.
Can we improve absolutely? Can we become more culturally aware? Absolutely?
Do we provide a product range to the Asian markets
that's most suited to them to bring that experience up

(25:49):
another level? No, we don't. We could do better. So
there's absolute areas to improve, without a doubt, But overall,
when you're competing New Zealand to other destinations, we're doing
really well.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
And what about cost? Are we regarded as expensive?

Speaker 2 (26:03):
I remember during during I don't know if it was
the Rugby World Cup or the Lions tour, but we had.

Speaker 1 (26:08):
A few of the Brits.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
Come down here and start complaining about how much a
cup of coffee cost or whatever else it might have been.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
How are we regarded in terms of cost today?

Speaker 3 (26:19):
So this is where it's interesting, right, and why I
keep raising that market shierpoints. So successive governments have actually said, oh,
we need to get more high value customers. We're a
high value destination. We need to be more high value.
We are. We are an expensive destination. So right at
the moment, you can go from Europe to Canada return

(26:39):
for around five hundred euros and down here that's more
like twenty half thousand euros. Yeah times the cost, and
that ratio pre COVID was a lot lower. So are
we an expensive destination? Absolutely? We are. And when you're
on the ground we're expensive as well. Look at our
fuel costs versus the USA, look at you know, of

(27:00):
all our infrastructure costs. So is that a bad thing? No,
but let's not get ourselves and say, oh, we need
to be more high value.

Speaker 1 (27:08):
We already are very interesting. We're with Grant Webster from
Tourism Holdings Limited.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
We'll be back in a market back with Grant Webster
from THHL. Grant, we're talking about the tourism industry.

Speaker 1 (27:29):
And the customer experience and the cost of being here.
Are we going after the right people?

Speaker 2 (27:34):
Because we are quite often to hear about the backpacker
market versus the wealthy, big spender. What do we need
more of?

Speaker 3 (27:42):
Yeah? Well so again I'm a little bit controversial within
the industry because I think we need more of everyone,
and I think that everyone plays their part. So when
people say the backpack is a low value, I think
that that in some ways looks at an a daily spend,
not total spend tends to be the metric that's used.

(28:05):
Total spend they get a lot closer to the average
because they stay here longer. But what you tend to
get with the backpackers is you get a deeper engagement
with the country. They're more likely to do conservation work
and engage in those code of activities, and they are
more likely to return at a later stage that's our

(28:28):
biggest opportunity, where they come back with their kids, or
they come back when they're married, or they come back
later in life, and you get that longer term value.
So I think just sort of saying we need to
be at one end or another is not right where
a country that should be open to anyone. Are there
parts of our industry we undervalue, such as the conservation estate. Absolutely,

(28:51):
So let's not get that confused with who we should
be targeting from a customer perspective, and broadly speaking, we
can target some markets, but New Zealand will resonate with
all markets in some ways the forms, and you can't
stop people. You can't say, hey, look, don't buy the
sealand ticket because you're not this kind of customer. So

(29:11):
we should let the natural flow come to fruition as well.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
So that comment, you still think we're an attractive destination, absolutely,
but we have to stay relevant.

Speaker 3 (29:24):
So you know, thhl's got operations, says you said at
the start, around the world, and I look at I
think our most competitive destination at the moment is Canada,
and Canada is fantastic, absolutely fantastic. It's New Zealand on
megascale so you get the different environments, you get the
beautiful forestry, you get the hikes, the nature, you get

(29:48):
a really warm and welcoming people with great heritage.

Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yea.

Speaker 3 (29:54):
And they spend a lot more than usial marketing. They've
got a lot more space opportunities and growth, and there
are half the distance to most of our markets, so
we've got to stay relevant.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
Yeah. Interesting.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
So you're exposed to tourism all over the world. Are
there pots of opportunity that we could be chasing that
we're not.

Speaker 3 (30:15):
So as a country in terms of who, Yeah, I.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
Mean what are the could we enhance our product do
things we're not currently doing. Should we be running motorcycle tours?
Should thhr own five hundred motorbikes and be running motorcycle tours?

Speaker 1 (30:31):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (30:32):
I'm just what are the things that are happening out
there that people are traveling for that we could do
more of.

Speaker 3 (30:39):
Yeah, it's interesting. So from a product perspective, I think
we continuing to improve our wellness category and offer as
a country is a key one. Continuing to develop the
outdoors opportunity, so really develop that dock estate in openness

(30:59):
to the dock state. From a tourism perspective I think
is really really key that's being tied up in knots
with a no no real issues with the Department of Conservation,
but the Conservation Act is way out of date. We
should be charging internationals and we should be investing in
the estate to improve the infrastructure that gets wiped out

(31:21):
in floods and so forth, and create more experiences. From
that perspective, I mean that is what we're known for.
The other thing I think that is really interesting that
we need to continue to promote is right back at
the GFC in two thousand and eight when the Prime
Minister of the day, Sir John Key said, out of
the employment some of it that he held, we're going

(31:41):
to do a cycle way from the top of the
country to the bottom of the country, and people went ah,
grey project, blah blah blah. I think it was visionary.
I think it's left us at a brilliant position globally.
I think we have people coming here to cycle now,
and I think the opportunities that creates on a regional
basis and throughout the country is ginormous. So more of

(32:03):
that and more of that kind of thinking.

Speaker 1 (32:06):
So you lead that leads into the next question. I
guess we have a reasonable new government in place.

Speaker 2 (32:13):
What's what's your take of their aspirations for the for
the sector, for the tourism sector.

Speaker 3 (32:20):
Yeah, so I sort of said it before and being
I guess a little bit blunt that the first and
easiest thing that this government can do and has done
is said it's okay for tourism to grow yep, and
that that's created a culture change because being around the world,
I tell you you'd go to Australia where tourism Australia

(32:40):
is in a really good position, they'd be saying sustainable growth,
sustainable growth. Brain the USA out there going let's get
people moving again and contribute to the economy. Canada the
same in New Zealand's going, oh if we let people
back and they're going to impact our environment and we've
got to we've got to get that balance of that.
So the national government or coalition government has definitely opened

(33:01):
the doors for that. I think that's great. Matt Douc
is the Minister now for Tourism and Hospitality. He's got
a background more in health, but he has been I
think he started extremely well. He's listened, he's got right
out around the regions. He's talked to an enormous amount
of people, and he's focused on what can the government

(33:22):
do to make things more efficient and what are the
issues that they can address without just sort of dolling
out money everywhere. So I think they're in a good place.
Broadly speaking. We know that the Prime Minister's got a
lot of experience in tourism. I sat on the tourism
board with him for a number of years and he

(33:43):
knows what we're about, he knows where we need to be,
so I think, and then you take a Minister of Finance,
she knows tourism well also, and so you put all
that together and I don't think it's going to be
a case of them not knowing what to do or
not being access to the industry. It's just going to
be how can they prioritize and how can they allocate

(34:06):
resource appropriately. So tourism is not going to get up
there with education, with health security, it's it's it's not
probably shouldn't, But if it gets the right focus, I
think this government will enable it to grow.

Speaker 2 (34:23):
So one of the challenges, and you've already touched on this,
the big budgets of Canada, Australia and some of those
other markets. But the other thing, some of those some
of those campaigns are often quite aggressive, and you know,
we all sort of jump to the where the bloody
hell are you Australian campaigns, So you know, some of
those other countries are very good at getting in your face.

(34:45):
We can't compete on dollars, but you know, we do
have a history in this country of some of the
world's best advertising talent. Can we be can we compete
with you know, by by making more noise, by being
a bit more aggressive, because awfully polite, I just wonder if,
you know, if we could be a little bit.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
More noisy out there and get an extra band for
our buck.

Speaker 3 (35:08):
I think we can do quirky really well, which has
enormous cut through authentic quirkiness. So the work that's been
done with Reece Derby historically Jermaine Clemment that you know,
there's some great talent that is internationally incredibly well recognized

(35:30):
that we can continue to Leverridge as a country and
I think we've done that reasonably well. What the next
wave of that is I don't know, And that's sort
of beyond my pay grade well and truly, but I
think you're right, we need to keep building that. The
other point is the New Zealand story. So New Zealand
story inc. The entity. They're not hugely funded at all,

(35:51):
but that whole point of going when we go overseas
for wine, when we go overseas for agriculture and horticulture,
we should be seeing the same story and we should
be talking about our products in that special way. And
that's all part of export earnings and it's all part
of tourism in the New Zeale story. So connecting that
and investing in that, I think is key.

Speaker 1 (36:13):
And where would you aim your your efforts.

Speaker 3 (36:16):
Ah well, see that's interesting because again a bias Germany
is still underrated in terms of its total value. It's
the largest value outbound market around the world. You know,
more holidays than most, don't they They correct, and they
love to travel, and they love to travel long haul,
and they're great travelers, and they spend and they are

(36:38):
conscious of the environment and they engage with cultures. So
that I think those kind of Germanic Europe markets. Then
the other one that obviously everybody's talking about and is
the future of tourism for the next decade is India. Yeah,
and what that means from a two flight, single flight
perspective is key. Will we end up with single flight?

(37:00):
That's what will that look like? Do we need to
change our strategies to be more dual destination with Australia.
If you go back fifteen years, we used to have
a much much higher proportion of our international travelers were
dual destinations Australia and New Zealand. And quite rightly, we've
worked on making that single destination so that we get
more of the spend out of India. It might need

(37:22):
to be more of a dual destination. Those single flight
to Australia and then spend whatever ten days there and
another eight days here.

Speaker 1 (37:30):
And yeah, so we become the bolt on.

Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah, the intentional, purposeful bolt on. But yeah, the bolt on. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (37:39):
Tell me, well, not just me, you can tell all
the people listening. Why should we take a Campa van holiday.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
In New Zealand.

Speaker 3 (37:47):
Ah, Well, I don't mind if you take it in
New Zealand or Australia or Canada.

Speaker 2 (37:55):
Well let's start local and then expand our horizons, shall we.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
Look, it's interesting the one that we don't have an
enormous portion of our proportion of our of our New
Zealand business domestically, And the main reason for that is
we've all got a sunk cost of our car, right,
So if you're traveling overseas, you've got to get a
car and an accommodation. So motor home is much more
competitive on that basis. So domestically you tend to look

(38:21):
at it a bit differently. But why you should do it.
The reason you should do it is in this beautiful country.
Why would you stop somewhere and be in four walls
with a window when you can park up at a
stunning beach forest anywhere and just open those curtains in
the morning and go wow, and then go out, go

(38:44):
for a walk, have the bottle of wine that's in
the fridge, be able to make your copy, your tea,
anything along the way, stop and enjoy and just take
your time. And I think that's the biggest kind of
feedback that we get. I think if you've got young kids,
this is my personal view, it's no stat Under two,

(39:07):
it's a little bit troublesome. Over sixteen it's even more troublesome.
But between two and sixteen, kids love a motor home holiday.
It's everything from a playground on wells through to just
connecting with people in campgrounds and that whole classic campground

(39:27):
culture that you get. So I think it really brings
families together and lets individuals just reach destinations and do
things that are so much more more peaceful and connected.
It's cool.

Speaker 1 (39:39):
There you go.

Speaker 2 (39:40):
First, there's the marketing slogan this this guy should be
in the tourism business, don't you think. In fact, he
managed to get coffee, alcohol, waking up and walking all
in one season, so that's not bad.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
What about what about overseas?

Speaker 2 (39:53):
You mentioned you mentioned the sort of the cost the
cost comparatives by the time we get a rental car
and a hope tell that is that pretty much how
how the pricing works out for people.

Speaker 3 (40:05):
Yeah, cheaper than car, hotel yeah yeah, yeah yeah, So
you get that mobility. So especially if you've done if
you've done Australia and you've you've done the Gold Coast
and I've been on the resorts and on the beaches,
You've been to Sydney, and then then why not do
the Ocean Road, you know, and go Melbourne, Sydney through

(40:28):
to Brisbane and it's it's just amazing. Yeah, well, if
you're really brave and I've got I haven't done this,
but a number of friends have do Route sixty four
in the US. Yeah, even part of it. I've got
a friend that's doing it the second time, in fact
might be third time, but second time that he's doing
a big trip and it has to be in an RV.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
Has to What about you mentioned the Great Ocean Ride
in Australia. Do many people do the nuther Boar Run
to Perth in a camp a van?

Speaker 3 (41:03):
Yep? Yep. Often people underrate how long it's going to take,
depending on where they're going from. But yeah, no, it's
it's definitely, it's definitely popular. We discourage people trying to
do it a round trip. Yeah, some people tend to,
especially out of Europe. They tend to think that Australia
one country, Surely I can go a long distance in

(41:24):
a short period of time. It sort of gets a
bit dangerous, but yeah, no, people people absolutely do well well.

Speaker 2 (41:32):
In a younger phase of my life, I did it
in a one point five litre Ford Laser from Sydney
to Perth and a camp a van would be a
hell of a lot more more comfortable than that, I.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Can promise you, but it is.

Speaker 2 (41:44):
It is an amazing trip and it is an amazing
stretch of stretch of land.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
And it's and it's worth it.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
But for those Kiwis listening to this who think they
wouldn't mind trying a camp a van holiday, why not
just start off in New Zealand South Island. Right, Yeah,
So what's your favorite THHL adventure?

Speaker 3 (42:05):
Well, I see, that's that's interesting because I absolutely love
doing a matter of home anywhere with with with the
family and with kids. I've been in long enough that
we used to have a product in Milford Sound and
that was probably one of the highlights. The manager in
Milford Sound I think had the best office view in

(42:29):
the country without a doubt. Imagine that you're sitting in
the at the Milford Sound wharf and you've got a
massive view just looking in nothing else but out across
Milford Sound day in Dowt. So, I think Melfit Sound
is the most special part of New Zealand and from
a from a from a nature perspective and having a

(42:50):
business that was involved in that area was was really fascinating.
So yeah, it's an incredible, incredible place around the world.

Speaker 2 (42:58):
And if we've got Kiwi's listening thinking about Campa Van
holiday overseas, which one of your THHL trips or tours
would or locations would you would you recommend?

Speaker 3 (43:11):
Yeah, So if you have if you want to do
the US, people people sort of go, oh, look, let's
do the US and do all the theme parks and
Los Angeles and go through to Vegas. Do the motor
Home for that, do the motor Home. Do a couple
of days, do Disney, do Universal, then jump in an RV,
go up the coast, go into Vegas, then go up

(43:33):
north and get it south through to San Francisco, do
the parks, Yosemite. That's that's incredible. And then if you
want something a little bit more adventurous, then then you're
up into Canada. And I think just the going up
through the through the mountains through to the Yukon is
just fascinating up there as well.

Speaker 1 (43:52):
Fantastic.

Speaker 2 (43:52):
There you go, folks, not only leadership tips but also
some travel tips for you where with Grant Webster and
we'll be back in a moment, back with Grant Webster
from THHL. Grant, let's talk about your life and career

(44:17):
because it's been a it's been a fascinating career and
we don't see very often nowadays the one company man,
but you're you're almost one of those. You had I
think three years with THHL before you became the CEO,
so you're coming up twenty years.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
But before all that, where did you go to school?

Speaker 3 (44:36):
By Hawk's Bay? Neper so what's now called William Colenso College.

Speaker 2 (44:41):
Okay, so you grew up in the Hawk's Bay. Do
you remember school life?

Speaker 1 (44:45):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (44:45):
Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. In fact, we talked about the top
two hundred wards at the start of this podcast. Probably
one of the elements that hit the heart and the
most with that was was the college, William Quinsay College,
posting the story of their Facebook page and sort of
going hey, look, you know he used to go queenso

(45:07):
look at what can happen. It's like, oh wow, jeez,
I wonder who worked that out?

Speaker 2 (45:13):
So were you that super studious guy that was always
going to have a business career.

Speaker 3 (45:19):
The nerdy guy, the quirky guy, that into everything guy? Yeah,
so I was. I was in just about every sort
of music group and choir. I was in the first
eleven cricket, as we said before, with the most improved players.
So soccer, volleyball, basketball, Yeah, a deputy head boy, blah

(45:39):
blah blah. So just into as much as I possibly
could at school. Loved it.

Speaker 2 (45:44):
So you're always going to turn out to be one
of these busy people somewhere, and it turned out.

Speaker 1 (45:49):
To be in business.

Speaker 3 (45:50):
Yeah, looks. I'm not actually proud of this story, but
I find it interesting. Is a reflection intermediate. We had
to do a little you know, where are you going
to be in your life? And you had to imagine
yourself in twenty or thirty years time and write a
little bit of a story around it. And I had

(46:11):
me as a CEO of the business and yeah, and
I don't I don't quite know when I reflect, I've
still got it. I've got it in one of my
old boxes and I look at it and go, wow,
what was going on in my head? I don't know,
but but there you go. So yeah, were you were.

Speaker 2 (46:29):
You in a business family? Did you grow up in
a business family?

Speaker 3 (46:32):
No? No, So my father rest a soul was, as
he would always say, he was a coach driver for
Newman so in the tourism industry. So we in our
school holidays, we'd go on the on the bus tours
around New Zealand and experienced tourism. My mother was an
occupational therapist and helped a lot of people through who

(46:55):
work can make your district and map your district hospital there.

Speaker 2 (46:59):
So there's an element of the tourism business that was
in the blood, but not necessarily the.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
Business focus. So it just evolved or did you yet
that clarity early on?

Speaker 3 (47:12):
No, I think the clarity was there. It was interesting
when you think about Legiship that the other thing that
did interest me at the time was, strangely was drama
because I've got a face for radio, that's for sure,
So I don't know what I thought why I thought
I'd be any good at that. And I applied for
the New Zealand Drama School from high school and was

(47:33):
told I was too young and needed to wait a
couple of years, and then went off to do business
and so forth. So that sort of just disappeared. But yeah,
I think it was always there because my father was
in tourism. He worked long hours right so over summer
back then, and it's still the case. When you're a
coach tour driver you'll gone most of summer. You're back

(47:53):
to back on tours. And I think we dis got
that work ethic, both my brother and I. My brother
works incredibly hard and he's still in the soup market
industry and does incredibly well. But that work ethic is
probably what came through.

Speaker 1 (48:09):
Good stuff.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
And what were your interests you said, cricket and drama.
Did you keep those going when you went off to
university or did everything change like it does for so
many of us when we leave school.

Speaker 3 (48:23):
The sport yet absolutely ripped in Achilles bowling for the university,
one of the university teams and on a soccer basis,
football basis, we started a team, well one of the
guys started at called the Golden Rods at Victoria University.
And the Golden Rods are still going today. They are

(48:43):
the longest they're the longest running single team in the
university's history. So they're still going with some of those
original players going out there in their early fifties every
week through winter playing for the Golden Rods.

Speaker 1 (48:58):
They must have a better at Chillies and me.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
Yeah, exactly, exactly, And I'm not making any kind of return.

Speaker 1 (49:06):
There's no no opportunity for a comeback.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
No comeback for me. No, no, that would be dangerous
for them and me.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
I'm guessing if you're a number ten or eleven batsman,
you were you were a fast bowler?

Speaker 1 (49:17):
Were you.

Speaker 3 (49:19):
On a relative basis? Yes? That was my intention year. Yeah,
using my height. I'm over two meters tall. Yeah, so
you like to run and bring the ball down from
a bit of height.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
It was was fun, yes, but fast bowling in your
fifties is probably not recommended.

Speaker 3 (49:38):
No.

Speaker 1 (49:38):
No, what's your earliest memory of being in a leadership role?

Speaker 3 (49:43):
Ah, well that's probably cricket actually. So the first primary
school team that I was in, I was co captain.
Yea and yeah, so that was probably my first leadership
leadership role. Really interesting stuff at that age, right, really interesting?

Speaker 2 (50:01):
Well, yeah, and when you're captain of a sports team,
other than standing at the front of the field, when
you run at the front of the team, when you
run on the field, did you have to do much?

Speaker 3 (50:11):
Well? We were very involved, army very clearly been involved
in obviously what was the batting line up, who was
bowling when, and all those sorts of decisions, and obviously
setting the field and everything else and doing that in
a collective way. I certainly made some mistakes. I think
the teammates from back then will probably go Gees was
a bit of a prick, But you learned very quickly.

(50:36):
I think that you've got to You've got to bring
people alongside you, otherwise it's just not going to work.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
Is that where you learned about leadership playing sports?

Speaker 3 (50:44):
Yeah, I think that's that's certainly part of it, and
just just I think any good leaders probably always learning right.
It's there's always good quotes out there. I like the
one the beggest room in the world is the room
for improvement. I think that's the case for leaders. You
never stop, we shouldn't even stop. Are really sort of
assessing yourself. So I think through everything that I've done,

(51:06):
there's been really good development. That's some great people to
model off in different ways.

Speaker 1 (51:11):
I was going to ask if you've had role models
or mentors along the way.

Speaker 3 (51:15):
Yeah. I mean even in the cheer roles Keith Smith,
Rob Campbell was cheered for a long time. Kathy Quinn
now he definitely picked up a lot from cheers. When
you're a CEO, there's no doubt about that. Founders like
Philip and Jackie Mills at Liz Mills fascinating. And then
back back in the day, in the supermarket days, I

(51:35):
had some great people, Neil Smith Pulling it was a
regional manager, Paul Walsh was head of HR went to
the warehouse, and Graham Evans that was a great leader
in New Zealand for decades and decades, and he brought
through the lakes of Greg worn who's now CEO of Being.

Speaker 1 (51:52):
He is one of my old mentors, Graham Evans.

Speaker 3 (51:55):
Yeah, I wish I could play.

Speaker 1 (51:56):
I wish I could play golf like him.

Speaker 3 (51:58):
Yeah, that's pretty good. He's pretty good. He does on
the golf course though, doesn't he.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Say he does?

Speaker 2 (52:04):
Yeah, he spends a lot of time at it. So
what do you think has been your biggest leadership lesson?

Speaker 3 (52:11):
I think really it is that it is that dis
continuing to learn. I think one of the ones that
one of the sayings that I really like is is
argue like your right, listen like you're wrong. And I
think the argue like your right part comes naturally to
so many leaders that you've got a view, right, You've
got a view when you're a problem solver and you

(52:33):
want to contribute, but you must listen like you're wrong.
And I think if you're always challenging yourself that you're wrong,
then you're going to open yourself to other people's views
the most. And I think getting that feedback was key.
And then there's another one that I had in an
the leadership course that I was doing, where there was

(52:53):
constant feedback, and one piece of feedback, because he said
I'm a big guy, was Hay, Grant, you can be
too dominated when you're standing up and when you're contributing,
can you step right back? Yeah? Okay, all right, So
I step right back. And then the next piece of
feedback I got from the group was Grant, where saw
your contribution? It was amazing, We've lost it? You know
what's going on? And that whole thing of just watch

(53:15):
the feedback. Feedback tells you as much about yourself as
it does the other person, and beware of for that individual,
I had to be very careful of what I was doing.
But overreacting to that and pulling back just just made
the situation worse.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
And that's even more so.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
I think those sensitivities are even more so with some
of our younger people today, the so called millennials, they're
not quite as resilient as and haven't had the upbringing
or the rough upbringing that people like you and I had,
and they are a lot more sensitive to some of
those things that we would sometimes take for granted.

Speaker 3 (53:54):
I agree, I think you've always and I think the
other thing that happens is you sometimes forget what your
position means. You know, you just think, hey, look, I'm
just a member of the team, and you know, blah
blah blah. But sometimes if you forget that, when you
walk into a room or when you say something, people
will go off. As CEO has said, X and no, no, no,

(54:14):
I was just chatting. You know the amount of times
somebody is taken something and said, I thought we were
heading off in this direction. No, no, no, no, it's just
a chat. So I think being aware of that, being
aware of that around millennials, I think is a perier
key point.

Speaker 2 (54:30):
I have the saying that I use a lot, which
is your people. Your people actually don't know what you do.
Most people that work with you have no idea of
what the CEO does.

Speaker 3 (54:41):
Look my, as I said, my father was a tour
coach driver and part of t HL. When I joined
was Johnson's coach lines and he and he used to
say to me, what do you do? So what do
You're not the fleet manager, you're not of repairs and maintenance,
you're not the workshop manager because you don't know anything

(55:03):
about how to fix an engine? So what do you do?

Speaker 1 (55:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (55:08):
And that was exactly that lesson for me, I think,
all those years ago.

Speaker 2 (55:13):
So sometimes those of us listening out there, sometimes we've
actually got to be really really clear about what our
role is and why the things we're looking for from
our people are important. And then and only then can
they do the job that we that we need them
to do.

Speaker 3 (55:29):
Yeah. I can't agree more, Breast. I think that's real, Sally,
It's great.

Speaker 1 (55:32):
What's the what's been the biggest challenge in your career?

Speaker 3 (55:36):
Uh? Look, I think there's there's been. There's been a few.
There always is. I think for me, working for leaders
that don't value you, that you know, make you feel bad,
is that probably the hardest thing, right, and feeling trapped
in those situations. I think that's that's that's really hard

(55:58):
on a personal basis. Making sure that you hold true
to your values and finding a way out of those
situations I think is really key and talking to people
who can help. Then the other thing sort of on
a business front, for me, I definitely think making those
mistakes that inevitably happen and sort of working through those.

(56:21):
You know, as a public listed company, when you make
a mistake on a reporting basis, yep, you feel that, right,
you really feel that. And then alongside that is when
you have to make redundancies, which, unfortunately, my first week
is a general manager in the supermarkets for the South Island.

(56:42):
I was twenty five and my first week I had
to close the store and make one hundred and seventy
five people redundant. That was a bit of a wake
up call.

Speaker 2 (56:51):
Yeah, and it never gets any easier than I'm sure
that there are people out there who go through such
processes who often label their bosses and nasty, but I
can tell you from experience, it doesn't get any easier
no matter how much you do that stuff, does it?

Speaker 3 (57:06):
No, Bruce, I think that's a really really important point.
And I guess the thing that I say to any
leader who's going through that the first time, chances are
this has to happen. You. Business has to make redundancies
at times, it has to so The thing that you
can do as an individual is do it authentically, be

(57:26):
there for your team, be open, and do the right
thing by your values. And if you do that, you
are doing better than many and you will do it
in the most effective way possible and people will notice
that in time.

Speaker 2 (57:40):
So if you look back on your worst days in
business and your best days in business, are those the
worst days?

Speaker 3 (57:46):
Yeah? Yeah, that's the worst thing.

Speaker 1 (57:49):
It's the people's stuff, isn't it.

Speaker 3 (57:50):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (57:52):
What are the best days?

Speaker 2 (57:53):
What are the best days other than winning awards and
all of that sort of stuff that you've managed to.

Speaker 1 (57:57):
Do, What are the best days?

Speaker 3 (58:00):
The best The best days are twofold one. When you've
got a group together, like for for us at THHL
we have a leadership conference every couple of years COVID
gotten away. But when you've got those key leaders for us,
there is about one hundred and twenty globally, they're there.
Like when people go, oh, you know the company does

(58:22):
X or Y. My coin to those one hundred and
twenty people, that's us. We're the company doing X and Y.
So it's a let's address it's But when you've got
those people together, the power of that, the way that
the team can move together at one that when you
see the talent that exists in an organization all together
as one, that's that's really powerful. And the other thing

(58:45):
that I find the best days are when you've got
a group that's really effective at problem solving. We're big
believers in design thinking. And when you've got that problem
definition right and you have got the right fact pack
and you've got the information and you're getting the insights
and grabbing those golden nuggets that a, that's it and

(59:07):
we can change and that people that see that engage
with that. That's when you can go, I can see
now the plan for this, to develop the plan for this,
to deliver something different that's exciting. Those are the best
days where you go, yeah, we're making a difference.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
Yeah, and we're nailing this. Yeah, we're nailing this. And
that could be health and safety, that can be m
and a opportunity. It can be a turnaround in a
business that's under performing, could be any of those things.
But when you take that design philosophy, you've got the
right people in the room and you're iterating those opportunities,
it's great. I love your comment about the days when

(59:45):
you get the team in the room. And I'm always
I've always been a big fan of getting the people
in the room as often as you can. And in
my life after my CEO life, which I've now had
for ten years or so, I still get to do
that with with clients in the form of facilitating some
of those days, or or sometimes just sitting in the
back room and being another voice. And I still get

(01:00:09):
a real kick out of those days, even though I'm
not intrinsically linked to the company concerned. They're great fun
and you see people coming out of their shells over
the course of a day.

Speaker 1 (01:00:19):
That to me are the highlights of those days.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
You know, people walk in, a couple of them be
a bit quiet, and the body language is a bit uncertain,
and by the end of the day, everybody's punching the roof.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
And I just love those days.

Speaker 3 (01:00:31):
And boost with the amount of different companies and different
industries that you see with that what what are the
Is there a recipe there that that makes those sessions
really successful?

Speaker 1 (01:00:43):
I think I think the big one and it's one
of my hobby horses.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
And I know you've read the book, so you've seen
it in the book that getting that clarity of purpose.
You know what what are we trying to achieve? And
if you can if that can trickle down to what
is my role in helping the company achieve that? When
you see when you see the light slot switch on,
it can be the person who who cleans the flood

(01:01:10):
at the back of the warehouse store.

Speaker 1 (01:01:12):
You know, it doesn't have to be one of the executives.

Speaker 2 (01:01:14):
When you get that message down to the people that
this is what we're trying to achieve, this is why
it's important for the company, and your role in making
that happen is and you see those lights switch on,
That to me is the gold moment because that's what
leadership is all about.

Speaker 3 (01:01:31):
Brilliant can't agree more awesome.

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Wherewith the head of THHL, Grant Webster, we're going to
take a brief break and we're going.

Speaker 1 (01:01:39):
To ask him to.

Speaker 2 (01:01:41):
Take over as prime Minister for a day when he
comes back back with Grant Webster from THHL, as I
said earlier, sixty years in the CEO role, that's not.

Speaker 1 (01:02:02):
For the fainthearted.

Speaker 2 (01:02:03):
At a company that's reliant on international currencies, international competitiveness,
covid airpicademics and so on and so forth, and I'm
looking at him on a screen as we speak, and
he's aging pretty well, so he must be on top
of most things. Grant, what do you think is the
most important factor in good leadership? We've talked about a

(01:02:23):
few over the hour. What do you think is the
most important? Authenticity and openness. Leaders who are more focused
on themselves I think inevitably run into trouble. I mean,
we had a really interesting example at THL recently or

(01:02:45):
recently yes, last year with the whole work from home challenge, right,
and we.

Speaker 3 (01:02:50):
Were trying to encourage people back into the office and
working through some things and setting a bit of a benchmack,
and there was a lot of negative feedback and a
few people all sort of said, well, we've got to
push through this. We've just got to push through and
tell people they have to do it. And we sort
of went, hang on, hang on, hang on, hang on,
let's let's listen. Let's let's bring everyone into the room

(01:03:14):
and let's let's just listen what are their concerns. And
it was great because some of the concerns were really valid,
and someone didn't agree with the really valid ones are going, hey, look,
some of us have only joined since post COVID, so
we only know work from home, so we don't we
don't quite understand. This week in the office, others were saying,
do you realize how much transport costs have gone up
in the last three years? Dot dot dot and others

(01:03:37):
were going, but I'll have to get a nanny orill
do something in terms of babysitting because I'm looking after
my three kids that are three, six and seven. I
was going, hang on that one. That one doesn't quite work.
You're supposed to be working. But so it made a
huge difference, right we started to work through it. So

(01:03:58):
I think that openness and listening is is really really key.

Speaker 2 (01:04:01):
When you've got businesses spread all over the world. Your
I know that you travel a lot. One of the
things that I find very important with leadership is visibility,
in other words, being visible to your team. How do
you maintain that visibility when when you're spread so thin.

Speaker 3 (01:04:21):
Yeah, you get to do a mix of virtual and
in face. And when you when you're in face, you
need to you need to get around you to yive.
I know you've got it in the book, No, really
believe in it. That management by walking around as a key, right,
You've just got to see as many people as you can.
During COVID, when we couldn't travel, I tried to do

(01:04:41):
virtual work walkarounds, so you know, you often set meetings
with the people that you set meetings with, right, but
not the people that you would see at the water
cooler when you walked past when you visited a site.
So I did fifteen minute slots over a six hour
sort of session as if I was walking around the
buildings in LA or in the UK or wherever, so

(01:05:05):
worked with the leaders, going or who's you know that
the account's receivable, lesson the detailer that, so forth and
so on, and just caught up with as many people
as possible, just going, Hi, how are you, what's going on?
It's a rough time dot. So those virtual walkarounds were
really important for me to feel a connection when you
couldn't physically be there.

Speaker 1 (01:05:25):
Yeah. Gee, that's a valuable lesson for people.

Speaker 2 (01:05:27):
I always always say, you don't know who you're going
to bump into when you go down to the kitchen
to make a cup of tea, And that's that's part
of the value in that management by wandering around, So
there's a lesson there and how you do it when
you can't necessarily get to all your offices or all
your devots. Yeah, fantastic. So imagine you're the Prime Minister

(01:05:47):
for a day and I'm guessing it's going to be
tourism related, but it doesn't necessarily have to be. Certainly
our earlier guess have had a crack at.

Speaker 1 (01:05:57):
All sorts of things. What's the one thing that you'd
like to do in New Zealand if you are the
Prime Minister for a day.

Speaker 3 (01:06:04):
Find a way to get out of the role.

Speaker 1 (01:06:09):
That's not an option.

Speaker 3 (01:06:12):
You're there, like desert Island discs and you're going on
the desert. So it's probably probably too that that that
I'll combine. So it's design thinking and schools and education.
So I was privileged enough to be engaged with Better

(01:06:32):
Buy Design when I would call it in their heyday,
which they were sort of more amalgamated into New Zealand
Trade and Enterprise and still do really good stuff, really
good stuff, but when they're an independent sort of organization,
I think they were on the cusp of changing New
Zealand society and rarely bringing design thinking into into so

(01:06:53):
many different areas. So design thinking into education. I think
would change New Zealand's competitive position for the long term.
The second thing that fits with education was actually an
idea that I pitched several times through COVID, but it
never got traction. And when there was all the money
sort of floating around to keep the tourism ministry alive,

(01:07:15):
I reckon we should have There's three hundred and fifty
thousand kids between year three and year nine in New Zealand,
and if we had got them out doing one week
of tourism, we would have get the tourism system going,
but we would have got people experiencing. If you put
the criteria going, it has to have an environmental and

(01:07:37):
a cultural aspect to it. We could have changed the
way people see in New Zealand. We could have got
people in low socioeconomic areas out and about experiencing things
that they hadn't done, and you would have invested that
whole thing. You would have taken people from the low
desal areas flown into somewhere where they've never done a
flight or anything, high DSL areas, somewhere local regional to

(01:07:58):
a farm dot dot dot, and I think we could
change what New Zealand stands for from a cultural, environmental
and tourism perspective.

Speaker 1 (01:08:09):
See there's a lot in that, but it's a great answer.

Speaker 3 (01:08:12):
Yeah, there is, there is, There is a bit longer
than a day. Apart from just saying here it is,
do it here, it is.

Speaker 1 (01:08:18):
Just you just need somebody to do it. But it's
a terrific answer.

Speaker 2 (01:08:21):
And and tying education into those broader life experiences can
only have value, as you say, particularly for those lower
dicile kids and that perhaps don't always get the opportunity.
And it's a great conversation starter for another conversation. But
we're we're about run out of time. So Grant Webster

(01:08:43):
from th HL, thanks for joining us on leaders getting coffee.
It has been a pleasure. Look, it's been neat to
hear from somebody close to the tourism sector and sharing
that perspective because we you know, post COVID in particular,
we get all sorts of versions of events, don't we,
And so so having that man who's writing amongst it

(01:09:04):
giving us his version has been incredibly value valuable. So
thank you for that. Thank you for sharing your leadership
experiences with us. Some of that stuff's quite personal, I know,
but like all of our leaders, your experiences are unique,
and I've certainly appreciated the opportunity to listen, and I'm
sure many of the people listening will live as well.

Speaker 1 (01:09:23):
So Grant Webster, thank you very much.

Speaker 3 (01:09:26):
Thank you, Bruce. It's been an absolute pleasure getting to
know you a little bit better, and it was awesome
process in getting engaged with your podcasts, your book, and
without doing your plug for you, I really recommend people
go out and read the book. I found it really worthwhile.
As you said before we started. You know, we've all
got a lot of leadership books there. Mine's on the shelf.

(01:09:46):
They're well read and that we'll be read again. So
thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:09:50):
Fantastic thanks for that. I didn't intend to get a
plug out of it, but I'll take it.

Speaker 3 (01:09:55):
Brilliant.

Speaker 2 (01:09:57):
Finally, folks, my leadership typical week guys, one that I
think is really relevant to our reluctant, award winning leader
that we've just spent an hour with, and it goes
like this.

Speaker 1 (01:10:08):
It's not mine.

Speaker 2 (01:10:09):
It comes from an American leadership expert called John Maxwell,
but he says a leader is someone who takes a
little more than his share of the blame and a
little less than his share of the credit. A good
leader is someone who takes a little more than his
share of the blame and a little less than his
share of the credit. And I suspect we've just been
listening to somebody who leads from that perspective, and I

(01:10:33):
really wish some of our politicians would take notice of
that particular line.

Speaker 1 (01:10:38):
But that's it from us for another couple of weeks.

Speaker 2 (01:10:40):
Thanks again for joining us or leaders Getting Coffee Episode sixteen.
It's been with Grant Webster. If you have any feedback,
please get in touch at info at leaders Getting Coffee
dot com. Remember that our favorite charity is Bike for
Blokes dot co dot Nz. And we'll see you soon
with another terrific leadership story. Until then, have a great
couple of weeks and we'll catch you next time.