Episode 31: Winston Peters

In Leaders Getting Coffee episode 31, our guest is The Right Honourable Winston Peters. 

Deputy Prime Minister, the Right Honourable Winston Peters has confirmed that he is keen to run again in the 2026 election, citing the need to finish the job they’ve started. The New Zealand First leader will be 81 when the next election comes around, but he spoke about legendary American investor Warren Buffet, among others, as testament to his belief that age and experience should be viewed as a positive.

Blessed with an encyclopaedic knowledge of New Zealand politics that can only come with 45 years of parliamentary life, Peters’ insight into how we can improve the country’s economic fortunes should be compulsory listening.

Speaking candidly with Bruce Cotterill on episode 31 of the podcast, Leaders Getting Coffee, Mr Peters canvassed a wide range of issues including the election of President elect Trump, the importance of small countries at the United Nations, and the examples set by other small nations such as Ireland and Singapore that New Zealand should follow as we seek to get our economy back on track.

He also speaks about the current geo-political issues facing the world, and his disappointment at the race debate that has resurfaced in New Zealand in recent years. And after last week’s debacle in the house, we hear about his views on the importance of the re-establishment of standards in parliament.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
This is an iHeartRadio New Zealand podcast. Hi everyone, welcome

(00:29):
back for episode thirty one of the Leaders Getting Coffee podcast.
My name is Bruce Cottrell and it's great to have
you with us for what I anticipate will be a
very interesting and highly entertaining discussion, and if from being honest,
I'm absolutely delighted that our guest has agreed to join
us today because there's a lot to talk about in
the world and at home at present, and our guest

(00:50):
will have a unique and well informed perspective on those
topics before we get to that. As always, i'd like
to shout out to the team at NZ at me
the News Talks d B crew who help us put
these podcasts together, and the editorial team at The Business
Herald where my regular column appears. Of course, you can
check out those columns at enzi adherld dot co dot
nz or alternatively under published articles at dubdubdub dot Bruce

(01:13):
Kottrel dot com, Forward Slash Blog and thanks again for
joining us on Leaders Getting Coffee. We'll be back in
a moment with this week's guest. Welcome back to episode
thirty one of Leaders Getting Coffee. Our guest today is

(01:34):
the Right Honorable Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand,
Minister of Foreign Affairs and Minister for Racing in the
current government. I met the Minister for the first time
over a cup of coffee in Takapoona a few weeks
before the twenty twenty three election. I have to say
that I was a bit cautious at the time, having
not quite forgiven him for the government he helped form

(01:54):
in twenty seventeen. But he won me over that day,
and he did so for a variety of reasons. Firstly,
even though he was dressed in in casual attire, he
was as always impeccably present. Secondly, and as you might expect,
a number of people came up to him to say
hello at the cafe that day, something I suspect he's
become rather used to and also rather sick of. And

(02:16):
yet he treated every single one of those people as
you might a favorite uncle or a favorite auntie. Thirdly,
we seldom see a person of his age. He was
seventy eight then and he's he's seventy nine now, with
the energy and commitment that I saw that day, and
that we continue to see as he pursues his various
roles in parliament today. We had a lively discussion that day,

(02:37):
and his listeners are about to learn he has an
encyclopedic knowledge of the history of New Zealand politics. And
while you might excuse someone with his schedule for not
doing so, he personally followed up on everything he promised
he would do in the weeks after our discussion. And
those are the things that a single meeting with Winston
Peters delivered to someone who was once a little bit skeptical.

(02:58):
He is, of course unique in the New Zealand political landscape.
His parliamentary career has spanned over forty five years, having
entered Parliament in nineteen seventy eight, and during that time
he's held a range of ministerial portfolios across various governments,
including three stints as Deputy PM, Foreign Affairs Minister, three
times Treasurer, and he's even held the Maory Affairs portfolio.

(03:19):
He entered Parliament as a National MP in the second
term of Robert Muldoon's government, but in nineteen ninety three
he launched a new political party in New Zealand First,
and he's been the leader of that party ever since,
a total of thirty one years in counting. He served
as an electoral electorate MP for Who Knew It from
nineteen seventy eight and Taringer, with which he won the

(03:39):
by election from nineteen ninety three. Mister Peters served as
Deputy Prime Minister and Treasurer from ninety six to ninety eight,
and from two thousand and five to two thousand and eight.
He was Minister of Foreign Affairs during the New Zealand
First Confidence and Supply arrangement with Helen Clark's Labor government.
It may surprise many to learn that he's a former
primary and secondary school teacher, and he has practiced as

(04:01):
a barrister and solicitor, including the operation of his own
law firm. He's also a pretty good rugby play back
in the day, having Captain Auckland Marie in the seventy
seventies and of course from those days. He holds a
Bachelor of Arts and a Bachelor of Law's degree from
Auckland University. The Sydney Morning Herald over the weekend just
passed referred to him as New Zealand's anti woke warrior

(04:23):
and the Trump of the South. I can always already
see him laughing at that. Deputy Prime Minister, the Right
Honorable Winston Peters, Welcome to Leaders getting coffee.

Speaker 2 (04:33):
Well, thank you for having me on your show.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
Well, you're most welcome. I know you've been busy and
I know you've been traveling. Did you get to see
the All Blacks loss to France over the weekend?

Speaker 2 (04:44):
Yes? I did. Actually, I was getting ready to watch
Q and A, and all of a sudden I thought,
I wonder, what's I'm fifty one. We'll go over there
and I'm fifty one. They're about to get underway for
the test in Paris, and I thought, what on earth
was I think I must have been pretty disoriented.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Yeah, yeah, to watch Q and A over that or so,
that's extremely disorientated. What did you make of the game?

Speaker 2 (05:06):
I thought we blew it. I thought we gave away
too many penalties. I thought we were the better side
and just trove difficult and so sad because it's like
a very very discipline game. These days, you cannot afford
to make mistakes or give away penalties.

Speaker 1 (05:20):
No, you can, can? You a bit different to the
old days. You got away with a bit more on
the old days.

Speaker 2 (05:26):
Well, yes I did. Of course. One of my beast
with rugby is has got far too complicated. It's far
too difficult. It's a bit like a customs office. Right
of course the paddocks are to speak so nobody can
get through, and it's ruined the running games, which I
love to watch because in the end we've got a
game which is comprised of big people and small people,

(05:48):
all who can make it on a ruggy paddic. But
I think the rules are just too difficult these days.

Speaker 1 (05:53):
Well that's the perfect entree. In a couple of podcast time,
we've got Angus Ganner, one of the world's top referees,
joining us to talk about leadership from a referees point
of view. So so, Pats, that might be one for
you to tune into and and you, like me, can
try and understand what some of those interpretations are. You
grew up in Northland whereabouts in Northland.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
I was bought them in a little place right on
the beach north of Fana Ray, northeast on the east coast,
so to speak, north of tudor Kaka, north of Matapuri,
place called Fonanak, very small place at the time, but
then household I said, we were all up north in

(06:35):
beautiful settings but very remote places, and rode horses to
school and all the old stuff that nobody can remember
anymore in the days of the straight after Second World War.
But you know, we were in a family of eleven children,
which I'm very very proud of, and Mum and Dad,
who made normal sacrifices and out of poverty, gave us

(06:56):
a serious chance to get on the es leat of
education and go as far if we wanted to go.

Speaker 1 (07:02):
And you and some of your siblings all had university
education in a day that you know, in the days
when that wasn't really a thing, was it.

Speaker 2 (07:12):
Well, you are quite right, but I was the first
one to graduate in my family on number six of eleven. However,
since that time, you know, we've got eight graduates, and
it's all a matter of perseverance, and it's all a
matter of house, should I say, availing yourself of opportunity,
and the opportunity has been there, and I'm not boasting

(07:33):
about our background. We do know in my family what
poverty smells, tastes and feels like, and in some ways
it's been the salvation of us because apart from Sadley
one brother not following them write medical advice of our
eleven ten are still alive.

Speaker 1 (07:50):
Wow, that's quite a story. Where did you go to
high school? Oh?

Speaker 2 (07:55):
Right? So I went to Faranaki Primary School, which was
a great primary school in the sense that in those
days teachers had to get advanced in their payscale, do
country service or wait for a while before their payscale
went up. So so many good teachers went out to
the country side of this New Zealand and spent a
lot of time there. So we had really good teachers.

(08:18):
It was a great idea. Back to your n I
stat I think it should be part of our thinking
in terms of pay promotion today. But I went to
finat at primary school and then we went off from
a number of sharemoking operations because our farm wasn't big
enough for a family of our size. And I went
to three secondary schools wow, one where there's only one teacher.

(08:41):
Were all set. Next, then I spent some time at
fun Raise Boys High School. Then we shifted farms through
and I ended up a Dagoll High School where I
was a prefect and the head the captain of the
first fifteen.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Oh there you go. So you and I had something
in common. We both went to one Gray Boys High
School for a period.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
Oh yes, it was a good school though. I mean
there were a couple of brilliant scholars who were in
the top thirty in New Zealand. And I said often,
of course, you know, people get on to despite their teachers.
But good teachers are very, very important. They have a
lifetime influence on students and arm one person who looks

(09:18):
back with enormous gratitudes. Some great teachers I had. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
Likewise, were you were you interested in politics or at
school or did that come later?

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Well, I was interested in politics in the sense that
we've been brought up to be interested in politics, because
come budget day or night, whatever it was, back then,
everybody would be listening into the last cent that might
affect their family, listening on the radio to the budget.
Budgets were very important back then. But of course then
then they were simple plain statements of transparency, before they

(09:52):
became telephone books of disinformation. So yes, I was interested,
of course I was, and so I learned. Also my
mother was a great student of history, and so I
learned about people like how shall I say, the Turkish
leader Gamal out of Turk and modern mentally the better

(10:12):
of modern Turkey. Famous people that you'd never normally hear about.
I knew all about Winston Churchill, was of my name,
Roosevelt and the New Deal and all those things which
you might find unusual because of the lack of communications
or publicity. But even where out in the bush but
on the coast, remote from everybody, there were a lot

(10:32):
of shared information from neighbors who were also very focused
about the bigger world outside.

Speaker 1 (10:40):
And so were you Were you a reader or did
you just listen? Were you just good at listening to conversations,
Because from that discussion we had in that takapoona cafe,
I recall your knowledge of things that happened long before
your time in politics and your ability to recite them.
That must have come from somewhere.

Speaker 2 (10:58):
Now. I was a very serious reader, and we were
taught to be serious readers. But one of the reasons
why I stopped reading novels was id so with novels
that I'd be three o'clock, four o'clock and I'm wanting
trying to finish it before milking cows. Now that's no
way to start the day. So I'd get absorbed with
novels not put them down, and I thought, I've got
to stop doing that. I've got to stick to you know,

(11:20):
history history.

Speaker 1 (11:22):
So were you always a leader? You mentioned that you
captain the first fifteen was leadership that just sort of
came naturally? Or did you work at it? How did
that come about? Now?

Speaker 2 (11:31):
I don't know about that, and I don't ever assume
to be a leader in that context in the National Party.
I never ever ran for any other office but an MP.
And despite the fact that I had countless people saying
you should do this, you should go to try and
understand for this, and I thought, I'm not doing any
of that. I came here to learn as much as
I possibly could, and they they always laughed at me.

(11:53):
But I used to have an answer, and which was
I'm entirely happy to be the MP for Torona, and
that your media colleague took with the greatest of cynicism,
even though I can prove it.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
I seem to remember that answer being rolled out of
a few times. What were the highlights from your school
and university days that you remember away from the classroom,
Because I imagine you're somebody who got involved in many
aspects of school or university life.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
Not of school life, because we didn't have time. We
were milking cows in the morning. You catch the bus
back home evening and straight back to the cow shed.
We didn't have homework time because the cows in those
days took far longer the milk with the old sheds,
and it was a major operation. But I look back
on it though, there was one marvelous thing about it

(12:40):
for someone going into politics. I learned to burn the
candle at both ends a long long time ago, and
so questions like stamina. I used to look at some
people here and they'd be at half past nine or
ten o'clock in the evening and the parliament's sitting and
they're almost falling asleep. And I thought, yes, I know
it's going to happen. When the apartment rises, it'll be
like le Mont start to try and get home. But

(13:02):
that's how you find out more about politics. If you
stay around and have a few drinks and talk to people,
you'll learn a whole lot more than you'll learn inside
the divisional setting.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
So I speak, of course. So you went off to university.
Auckland University did a double degree, played Rugby for the
university as I understand it, and then I imagine went
out into the workforce. Did you work for a law
firm at first, or how did your career kick off?

Speaker 2 (13:30):
Well, first of all, I left singaty school and started
as a teacher. But after one year I thought to myself, look,
I kind of think that because of your narrow focus
when you were in a country setting, that I hadn't
had set my sights high enough. And I thought, I'm
going to go off to university and I could be
worse off than I am now. So I went off

(13:52):
and started an arts degree and did double major in
science and political science and history, and then I had
an I perfantly so to speak. I thought, now what
I got to get myself an auditeditary. So I worked
very hard in Australia, extensively hard, about sixteen hours a day,
seven days a week sometimes and snowing manners. After the
working for BHPN mad enough money to start law school

(14:15):
and the rest's history. I left the law schools to
work for the biggest law firm in New Zealand by
miles at that time, called Russell McVeigh, and during it
in seventy four, seventy four seventy five, the then Labor
government attacked my and a lot of European landowners in
the place where I was then from, and I still

(14:37):
am called Nati way on the fire array heads all
the way to Rafferty on the coast, and I acted
in as a lawyer, got for four hundred and seventy
seven of them and took the fire array, then county
Council and the government on not with the tread why taking,
but the straight law, and we won big time. And

(14:57):
then I think people started saying, well, who's that guy.
I think we might ask them to go into politics,
And that's how it happened. Huh, yes, Wow, there's a
march on here coming and he's at the moment they
want to remember how the things really were and how
so much of us have done it without all this
pleadings that were somehow different.

Speaker 1 (15:18):
Yeah, well we'll get to that, I think sometime in
the next few minutes. You've quite quite naturally taken us
to the point where you entered politics and you were
part of I think Rob Muldoon's second government, second term
as Prime minister. What do you remember about those days
coming in as a rookie.

Speaker 2 (15:39):
Well, those days we were taught, you know, to breathe
through you, through your nose. We're told that simply learn,
come in and learn, breath through your nose, find out
how this thing works. And I've watched it over the
years and thought to myself, there's so many who don't
seem to understand that most fundamental thing. There's a lot

(16:00):
you can learn by paying a lot of attention to
experience people. And also from my position, people you're what's
the ones who've got what it takes and the ones
that will never do it, And they'll be all the
acclaim will come their way, but they haven't got what
it takes. So it was a great education. But we're
all told that all ten of us breathe. Three of

(16:20):
those learn the ropes. And one famous line that was
actually been miscast but was said by Gordon Coats, which
is then, when put to the test, an ounce of
loyalty is worth a ton of cleverness. And boy is
that true in any engagement, or every business or every lifestyle.

Speaker 1 (16:41):
I know, I imagine that's got great ramifications for a role
as the Foreign Affairs minister.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Yes it is. It's serious, you know, you're out there
defending your country, pushing a country that they're is say
so export the pennant. And you've got to make every
post a winning post, and making personal contact, reading the room,
and being a good reader of people and their body movements.

(17:08):
He said, very very important. You've got to be able
to read the room, read the body movements, not just
of the person you're talking to, but of their staff.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
Going back to the Muldoon era, what was We all
saw what Muldoon was like in public. What was he
like behind closed doors?

Speaker 2 (17:26):
Well, that's the phenomenal thing about it. I looked at
back and think of Muldoon. First of all, he was,
whether they like it or not, incredibly bright, in a
tremendous memory. And I can recall one night with all
young guys. We're having a drink with them about help
us one in the morning and somebody and he was
nodding off and like he looked like his sleep and
somebody said something and he woke up and said, that's

(17:48):
not true. You got the wrong here. He said, wow,
And he was right now that first thing. The second thing,
he had enormous respect for Keith Hollyoke by the way,
and I kind of sadly think that things changed after
Muldoon became the leader because, to tell the truth, he
didn't they have good enough people around him. I don't

(18:09):
got no doubts about that. I saw Hollyoake with about
nine seriously good ministers around him, and I don't think
Muldoon had enough good ones around him. Yeah. Interesting and
contu what people say, you could seriously have a guid
and I'll do and say I don't believe that's true,
and I'll tell you why, and you'd hear you out right.

Speaker 1 (18:30):
So what were the major policy challenges of that time?

Speaker 2 (18:33):
Ah? Well, the thing was, it's nineteen seventy three. In
the first oil shok happened. Was it? Sure? Catastrophic in
terms of driving inflation national wins In seventy five inflationans
got seventeen point five percent. They got down to ten
point one by nineteen seventy eight. And then comes a
second old shop in ninety seventy nine. We're back in
the same catastrophe at all because we hadn't done what

(18:57):
we should have done. And it's wise, It can be
wise after the event, but we were always going to
face those moments and we should have prepared our own
energy self sufficiency because this country is energy rich.

Speaker 1 (19:10):
And we're still asking that question today, Mother State.

Speaker 2 (19:14):
That's colossal. We are energy rich country, and we've still
got all these people tearing their hair out about where
we can go to. There are countries that I know, like,
for example, Ireland, nation called Taiwan, countries like Singapore who
just could not if they were here, they would not
believe how we have failed to maximize our development in

(19:35):
the way we once did, where for example, I called
Vogul in the eighteen seventies to eighteen eighties built in
ten years more railway line in those ten years than
for the next one hundred and thirty years. So there's
a can do man. Then you've got to coach the
public worksman of the nineteen twenties. And then the Labor
government nineteen thirty five came in, and of course they

(19:57):
had been the hell on back. The'd been a war
in the beach, through a great depression, and they set
out to get things done. Now, I just wish forget
about the ideology because frankly, some of the ide joab
they head back then would make them look real right
wing now. But they were men when the main who
I say, had not been the beneficiaries of great education,

(20:17):
but boy, they had learned from this University of hart Knox,
and they were practical and they were brilliant, and they
were so good that the National Parish Circle ninety forty
nine thought, what we'll do is take the power off them,
and we'll give it a new name. We'll call it
a property owning democracy. And so for those say twenty
five to thirty years, we ticked overgrowing at five and

(20:39):
a half percent year on year on year, on made
ourselves and almost number one in the world. And the
number unemployed people in this country registered were only twenty nine,
not thousand or one hundred, just twenty nine. There was
a glorious age and to travel today when you try
and point modern politicians and modern theorists and economists back
to that former age, they keep on saying, oh, that's

(21:01):
been nostalgia. And my response to that is, don't talk bally.
Who Ireland, when it was desperate in the eighties became
the Celtic Tiger. But I learned these lessons, so did Taiwan,
so did Singapore, and sort of idea of sat is
Croatia doing it right. Here right now. Yep, very late
to the piece, but going fat out because they understand

(21:21):
that when people are not working and they're wasting time,
they're are cost of the country and that people sweat.
It's worth the investment if you've got a plan. But
you know, that's the sad thing you I have so
many people that remind me of Mike Mosse of me
once and said, you know, we know it works in practice.
Now let's say it works in theory.

Speaker 1 (21:45):
Folks, I told you you were in for an encyclopedic
lesson on the history of New Zealand politics. We're with
Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters and we'll be back at
a moment back on leaders. Getting coffee with Deputy Prime

(22:06):
Minister of Winston Peters. What is it about politics that
makes someone stick around for forty five years?

Speaker 2 (22:13):
I kind of thought you'd get around to asking that question,
And let me tell you, I've got no idea how
I could answer it, because I never ever had my
wildest dreams ever thought I would be around in politics
for this long. And in fact, I had a law
practice once and it's a very successful law practice now
not bursting, but I made more money a month than
parliamentary salary for a year, just in case anybody can't

(22:36):
remember that. So I would have, and I thought to myself,
why did I ever do it? But sometimes you get
the call, and then I had. I had to tell
you when as a young person that naivety that I
could change things pretty quickly like tomorrow. In some ways
I had been able to do that, but in other ways,

(22:56):
some things take a long time to fix.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
And sometimes it's a lifetime's work.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
Huh, well it is. I mean, I never thought i'd
be back in twenty twenty three in the twenty three election,
but when I saw it happen after twenty twenty and
the four month lockdown which I thought in twenty twenty
one was a disaster and would do so much damage
for the economy. And then if I saw them tossing
money around like eight armed ocipice with no plane at all,
then go down the path of racism. Separation based on

(23:25):
your race will give you special privileges. As someone who's
Mari and Scottish, I just thought this was a horrible pathway,
which was disastrous. We were heading for Venezuela or Mian
mass to speak, and I need to do something. That's
why I stood in twenty twenty three, because I thought
if I didn't do that, I'll be sitting there all
these future years. That morning, why didn't you try to

(23:47):
fix it?

Speaker 1 (23:48):
Yep, so you put yourself forward. You've had a couple
of stints, and one of those was up leading up
to twenty twenty three where the voters didn't return you.
What do you do during those times? Do you go
back to that high ending law firm or do you
go fishing?

Speaker 2 (24:02):
Or do you just.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
Sit in the corner and mull over how what you're
going to do next to get back.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
Well, it's been twenty two eight to eleven when I
was out because of a total false allegation. And I've
had a few of them in my career, and the
last one you recall was the serious Ford office attack
in April of twenty twenty, and I had taken all
the way to election. I fought three court cases and
smashed them three times. They spent four point two million

(24:30):
of your money. I had to spend my own see
what happens, and never got any conversation. And when I won,
they wouldn't print one word of my victory statement. But
the first time I was out, I set up on
business hall practice, so to speak, and on this basis,
if you come to me, I'll guarantee you a result,

(24:51):
but you're going to give me ten thousand open the file,
and you'll pay me fifty thousand when I succeed. If
I don't succeed, it'd loaned me ten thousand. And I
had three few big clients and one of them the biggest.
I would have been successful, would have saved them some
in my twenty seven million dollars of taxation.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
Right, So so you hung your shingle back out, and.

Speaker 2 (25:12):
Well, not so many, I just say said of my
own enterprise practice, so to speak, but basically as someone
who was saying, look, there are some parts of this
country's business and law I know a bit about, and
if you want and you well, usually that come for me.
I have the tried five or six other avenues. They
had to be desperate to come to me and paid
ten thousand open the book for a kickoff. But I

(25:34):
kind of thought of if they're they're that desperate, then
they knew it. They'll they'll they'll need help. But my
promise was if I don't win, you don't to pay,
But if I do win, then I want to be
paid properly and far less than you've paid for all
those experts so far fascinating.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
Hey Winston, You've been Defity prime minister three times, foreign
minister three times. You've partnered both National and Labor governments.
How's politics changed over all of those years? Is it
more demanding than it was? Is it is? Is the
political decision making more complex? How's it changed?

Speaker 2 (26:12):
Well? Has changed? My experience was Bolga had sacked me
three times, and then he's the first guy on the
phone to me on election night nineteen ninety three on
the first past of the post when my party kept
got elected the first time. And then on ninety six
we go into Corriston together because it was the only
option I had. The other side had no agreement between

(26:37):
Labor and the Alliance as to the Alliance supporting the
future government. So one look at that said, we've going
to got one option here, and so bolda to be
to be feared her and I've said so kept his
word the whole time. It was like a new arrangement.
And then I went in a supply arrangement with Allen
Clark and to her credit, she utterly kept her word

(27:01):
and it was easily working with her because she said
to me most of other things, Look, you want to
be seeing us every week, me every week, And I said, look,
the last thing I want to do is be seeing
you every week. You're going to be flat out and
I don't want you to have the experience of some
poor leaders like Jim Anington, who was on the phone
to them other parties every day. It must have been
so draining when you got this massive problem front of you,

(27:24):
trying to text New zealanm And then I had a
different experience with Decender I doing because she did not
keep her word, as I found out, and dramatically things
happened behind my back. And I could never understand why
someone would ever shake you a and not keep their word.
I've tried to Helen Clark defends me on that and
Sada Jim Bolger.

Speaker 1 (27:44):
It's fascinating and we're going to come to that shortly,
but before we do, you were touted as as a
potential leader of the National Party and possibly as the
first Maori Prime minister back in those days, in the nineties.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
In the eighties, in the eighties and the eighties, the
highest pole I got to was thirty eight percent, when
the highest one dolgiers On was five. Well for the
next prime minister steps up, No, no, but I never
got Look, I never got taed away. A stack of
a massimate number of people come from that through my door,

(28:19):
from the National Party corus of which I was a
member then. But one thing was very clear to me.
They wanted to use me to push their policies, policies
which I didn't believe in, such as the mother Law
budget you saw on ninety ninety one under a citizen
And I thought, oh, no, you don't want you want
me because you think I can get you in there,

(28:39):
then you can push your own agenda. I'm not doing that,
and I'm proud of the fact I've never ever accepted
that offer.

Speaker 1 (28:46):
So with that background, what prompted you to go up,
go out and set up up your own party in
nineteen ninety.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
Three, Well, not only only one. I saw how that
we had gone back on our word. I'm in the
cabinet and in the first meeting of that cabinet there's
a question about the b n Z we had under
We had said that we're going to underwrite the b
and Z we knew it had been subject to scan
and scandal after scandal. We'll underwrite the band Z and

(29:11):
we'll have a full scale inquiry. And that went out
the door in twenty four hours after the ninety ninety election,
and at the first cad of the meeting there was
a hour I want to know what's happened to our promise?
And it just deteriorated from them because then Ruth Witchison
came in with the second version of rogenomics, the mother
of Bore budget that sent the countryes fed into a recession,

(29:32):
you remember that, and National went from National went from
a massive majority to a hung parliament in three years
flat between nine ninety and nine ninety three. By that time,
I've been expelled from the party and I said, I
don't want to be expelled from the party. I've got
no mandate to be here. I'm asking you to give
me a by election in Tower right here, right now.

(29:54):
And they wouldn't went on for months, when all of
a sudden they caved in one day and gave it
to me. So sevent the Vatepril nine ninety three. I'm
in a bi election in towern and I win, and
then people started to say, look, you've got it, do
something of that. Why don't you start a new party?
And I thought at the moment, yes, I don't do
something about because this country needs a party that believes

(30:15):
in has a strong sense of nationalism, understands how the
economy works, understands that in the end, it's as Bill
Clinton said, it is the economy stupid. All those things
were important, and so we did.

Speaker 1 (30:29):
So.

Speaker 2 (30:29):
You've been a real struggle. I can't dad you though,
starting a physical party in keeping going for thirty one
years and the easiest job, and well.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
That's what I was about to ask. You and the
party have had your ups and downs over those thirty
one years. You're currently riding high. There's a whole lot
of people out there right now who are pretty happy
with the job you're doing. Have you Have you achieved
what you set out to achieve? Or is the more
to do?

Speaker 2 (30:54):
Now? What we have we have to do is bet
in our sort of constitutional thinking and the fact that
we are one country, that we've all got a different background,
that if you come here legally as an emigrant, then
you're entitled to all the defense of the law. If
somebody's been around here as long as my Mari side as.
But this idea that somehow you've got blood quantum rights,

(31:16):
it's just so wrong. So we've got a long way
to fix that up. But I'm believe we've run a
way to doing that. And on the second question, we've
got to answer why is it that New Zealand has
not attracted the investment to New Zealand to develop it
as a super economy that we should have. And that's
not complicated because I can show you models of countries

(31:37):
that have done just that. But they answered the one
critical question when they asked the question why New Zealand. Well,
if I say why Singapore, the answer is obvious. Why
are they the answers obvious? Why Taiwan, this country with
the second highest population density of Bangladesh and no resources
at all, is a world economic leader? And we have

(31:58):
never answered that question because we've got too many house
Will I say that hard left or hard right theorists
who think somehow their theories work and they don't not
in a modern set, no.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
And been proven not to work anywhere in the world.

Speaker 2 (32:12):
Well that's my point. Where had that, Where did anybody
tried wagenomics in that way? And where did every work
in the world. Never.

Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, yeah, So in two thousand and seventeen, New Zealand
first was the kingmaker. You had the option of going
with National, who were the highest polling party, or Labor.
You chose to go with Labor, and effectively, I think
these were your words, put your cinder ardin on the
global stage. I'm a bit naughty repeating those back to you.

(32:42):
But what makes you go with labor?

Speaker 2 (32:45):
Excuse me? I never used that phrase. I don't know
where I got it from, but I never said that
at all. I said, I want, I want cabitalism to
regain its human face. And I could see what was
going wrong. I could see that we had so much
going wrong with news, even because the economy wasn't doing

(33:06):
it all well. Despite the rubbish about being a rockstar economy.
Everything about our economy was sliding against the growth of Australia.
All the evidence has been there since there, I said,
Hawk comes in with Keating, just before LONGI comes in
with Douglas. We ran down the way of an economic revolution,
the most part right one you've ever seen. They went

(33:27):
down the road of incremental change, building on what's there before,
and they grew thirty five percent and real terms greater
than our economy. Look what we could have been if
we'd have gone down the right pathway. So my view
was in twenty seventeen, Billingis was going to be rolled.
I became clear to me on day one of our
first conversation that there was a spill on in the

(33:48):
National Party that they were using him, and I thought,
I can't have this experience. I went through it under
Jim Bolger. I shook hands with Jim Bolger only to
find him being rolled by somebody massively inferior in intelligence
and experience called Jenny Shipley and the rest's history. Yep.

Speaker 1 (34:06):
And you didn't want to see that again?

Speaker 2 (34:08):
No, no, no, Well I know that it's from my
legal training when you check somebody's hand. When you've got
a deal, you stick to it no matter what. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:19):
Absolutely, you clearly have a deep passion for foreign affairs.
So our discussion today is happening at an interesting time
with Ukraine, the Middle East, the USA has got a
new president, which I know you predicted. There's some doubt
being cast on global institutions like the United Nations, where
you appeared recently, the World Health Organization there's major illegal

(34:42):
immigration issues in Europe and North America. There's threats of
China and the Pacific and so on. It's a hell
of a time to be involved in foreign affairs, and
all at a time when I guess the complexities of
the media landscape sees us struggling to portray accurately what's
really going on. How do you view that landscape and

(35:03):
how do you navigate it?

Speaker 2 (35:05):
Well? First of all, one of the things when you
talk about elections, the tragedy for so many people in
the mainstream media who when they're giving their opinions about elections,
they say what they want to happen. Rather than have
this discipline, they've got to say to yourself, what is
my fellow country man and woman? What is Joe Bloggs?

(35:25):
What is Mary Blogs? What does Horney and he here think?
Low then what I think. The reason why I was
able to pick the American elections was I'm watching very
closely out on the ground. I could see massive change
happening in the same way as I've predicted when in
twenty sixteen, and when I pflected Brexit in twenty sixteen,
not after a bit beforehand. Because I've been a student

(35:46):
of politics and watching very acutely these so called commentators
who can't get anything right, but they keep on being published.
So my point was to try and not say what
I wanted to happen, but what I say what I
thought would have happened. The second thing is if the
world is much more difficult place, the dear strategic challenges

(36:06):
far greater than never were. But then there's other sides
of the coin which show a certain positivity. Sometimes the
vacuums are being filled not by adverse elements, but by
elements that are saying, I know you don't. We're going
to join together and make sure we keep our world
the way we want it. Now. There's a lot of

(36:27):
positive things going on in there, but we don't talk
about it all that often because it's often carried on
behind closed doors or when we meet face to face.
But we have so many shared things with other countries.
And one of the things I was trying to say
at the United Nations is small countries matter, Small nations matter.
Now message to small nations has come on. Make sure

(36:49):
your voice is said. Don't get pushed into doing things
adverse to your interest, adverse to your freedoms, adverse to
your democracy? Or dare us ad adverse to your right
to worship the god of your choice? These are pretty
fundamental freedoms.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
You did say that at the United Nations. I read
that speech, so I thought it was a terrific speech
and our quote from it. We small states need today
superpowers to talk more, seek better understanding, and develop ways
of compromising more. You're from one of those small countries.
You're standing there at the U n telling the big
boys how they should behave. Is that intimidating?

Speaker 2 (37:27):
No it's not not. If you've got a bit of
edge on your side, No it's not. But let me
say that here's the point. It's not just compromise. It's
you've heard the expression meet us halfway. Yeah, that's much
more positive than this word compromise. But many people halfways.
What we do when we try and buy a house,

(37:49):
when we try and buy a car, when you try
and hire somebody to mow the lawn or whatever it is,
or if you try to buy a second hand things,
you try and meet them halfway and everyone's happy. Now
that's what I was trying to say there. Please do
not think because you're small countries, you haven't got a
voice because in the end, even the biggest of bullies
want to be late.

Speaker 1 (38:11):
So when you make a speech like that and you're
in that environment you walk out afterwards, do you get
feedback or what happens? Is there just a whole lot
of quiet people wandering around or do meetings sort of
continue and the discussion get picked up on how does
all that work?

Speaker 2 (38:27):
Well, it was very immodest to me to say so,
but we've got tremendous feedback from that speech. Yep, from
not just a New Yealand but around the world.

Speaker 1 (38:36):
Yeah, well it doesn't surprise me. It was a terrific speech.

Speaker 2 (38:40):
No, I'm looking, I'm very part of our team. We
sat down and did a lot of work thinking we're
not going there to waste time. We travel This way's exhausting,
you got to cueue up and this body security everywhere
was a horrible trip on that perspect And they're waiting
in a room, waiting in a room, and all of
a suddenly a turn turn comes. You've got to make
that down most of it. So we said we're going
to go there. We're going to leave them clear of

(39:01):
with the opression of what a country that has only
one who can make this claim there and say nine
of us has been a democracy all these years, since
the eighteen fifties. We're one of the nine currents who
make that claim. We've got a right to say what
we're saying. We have lived it.

Speaker 1 (39:16):
And how does it play out. Does somebody pick up
that initiative and try to do something about it, or
is it just is it like the dripping tap, you
just got to keep at it.

Speaker 2 (39:26):
Well, we hope. So you see, I know what people
think about the United Nations, But then when it was
set up way back in the post Second World War,
the dreams and aspirations were right. And what's happened there
is that companies that have abused some of the developers
of the United Nations, that have abused the charter Russia
did recently with respect to Ukraine. And we're going to
make a stand on those matters. Then look at the

(39:48):
World Health Organization. The idea is not wrong, but it's
when all of a sudden, our bureaucracy's got the idea
that we're taking over. Now we will actually prescribe for
companies domestically what they should do. And we say, oh no,
you don't We're never going to lose the forgive part
part with the right to make our own decisions in

(40:09):
our country. We want to be part of world organization
to help world health. But you've got right out of line.
You're making decisions you've got no right to and you've
got no authority to right.

Speaker 1 (40:19):
So we are we can play a role as the
conscience for some of those bigger countries in the world.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
Yes we can. And you know in many ways. I
mean New Zealand has a lot a great reputation in
some ways. I hate to think what they think now
after people dance around doing the Harker and Parliament and
it's not good publicity. I can tell you I don't
care what some of these medicals might say. They think
we're a modern country. There. There's a lot of money

(40:47):
in the world, the money the world's are was with
money looking for a place to go, a safe place
to go, and we've got to step up and make
sure it comes here. Why it's because we being we
could be doing so much better.

Speaker 1 (41:01):
We're with Deputy Prime Minister, Foreign Affairs Minister, the right
honor of A Winston Peters, and we're having a bit
of fun while we're at it too. We'll be back
in a moment. That was Deputy Prime Minister, the right

(41:22):
Honorable Winston Peters. Mister Peters, you picked Trump, as you said,
to win three hundred and five electoral votes. He won
eventually three hundred and twelve. You said that you were
confident of his victory because of what you saw on
the ground up there. What impact do you think you'll
have that on that rather fragmented state of world affairs at.

Speaker 2 (41:43):
The moment, No, I said, he gets three hundred and
five plus.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
Oh okay five, well three hundred okay, So you're right.

Speaker 2 (41:52):
But my point was, and most you said that, they'll say, oh,
there goes a Trump supporter, there goes but it's not true.
What I'm saying is, if you're looking at a country,
then you're gonna look at the who matters. So people
who matters are the voters. And I can see such
a disconnect between the Democrat campaign and the ordinary voter

(42:14):
of America, and no one was paying enough attention. And
then I start to think, actually, even on the polling,
the difference between sixteen twenty and twenty twenty four is
so stark surely that people can see it now. These
people have got PhDs and political science and all that,
so come to the agreement that sometimes they might be
qualified theoretically but not practically. However, what does it mean, Well,

(42:40):
it means a whole different world. It means, for example,
that there's going to be a stiff tariff regime applied
by Trump, and our tour is to ensure it doesn't
get applied to us. That's when face to face and
contacts matter. And so we've said ourselves one hell of
a task here. But I think it's possible to ensure

(43:00):
that a country like this Zillam was doing so much
in a specific a huge part of America's theater that
MURDERSY pay attention to. Well, where do some heavy lifting
here as a country, And what we want from that
is a fair go, a better economy to do a
better job. But that is in the United States and
in all democracy's interests. I'm not pushing one country against

(43:20):
the other. But I do believe in freedom, democracy and
rule of law.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
Absolutely, I've seen I've noticed that you and the Prime
Minister and others have I think the basketball term would
be a full court press on your international travel and
getting the new Zealand brand out there over the first
twelve months in office. Was the foreign affairs role neglected
by the previous government or do we just have different

(43:47):
people who take a different approach.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
Look, this was staggering, but I think my predecessor didn't
want the job and she was forced to do it.
And I think one of the reasons why she didn't
want the job was she wasn't able to travel. It's
very a very energy shopping business, and make no bones
about it, you have to be and you know, be
pretty much focused on diet and everything like that there.

(44:11):
But I didn't the thing. She didn't want to die,
but she didn't go anywhere. And so when it happened,
I mean I was actually staggered. One senior diplomat came
into my room straight after the twenty twenty three elections,
the minister, and he said, look, can I tell you
something confidentially. I don't want you to pet it and
tell say who it was. I said it, you can say,

(44:32):
don't say said it said. We were wondering what we
were doing in this country because nobody would see us.
So here were these diplomats won't to make an appointments
with the government. And won't be able to see anybody.
And I was horrified at his honesty and I'm very
grateful to him forthestanding it telling us, because that gave
me a clear view with our eyes wide open as
a officer to speak of what we had to do.

(44:55):
Get out there and try and make up this vacuum
as fast as possible.

Speaker 1 (44:59):
And that's what you've been doing. You've you've been to
places that we don't normally talk about as much like India, Career, Malaysia.
How big are the opportunities in those countries where our
relationships are possibly underdeveloped?

Speaker 2 (45:13):
Well, I think the opportunity is enormous and can I
just say not making a plead via this program, But
musumers have never understood how important it was to have
offshore representation. That they don't understand that Ireland, Singapore, Croatia
have two and a half more times more people in
the field than we've got. Why because selling and getting

(45:37):
your product away when you're an export dependent economy needs
serious operation that needs seous understanding. And we thought we
could do it on the cheap. And I'm so annoyed
that we think we can get away with it when
we could do far better by strategically selling more product,
doing better and selling added value product, not just milk

(45:57):
oudert in one country via Fonterra like China, but selling
infant formula, selling added value product in all respects. You know,
we make the finest aluminium in the world. Does anybody
know that we make the finest elumenium by far than
any done in the world. We've got the countries that
are putting rockets into the stratosphere. New Zealand's number four

(46:18):
in the world. Does anybody know that we just don't
get out there and do what we could do like
other countries do. And now if we did that, I
think we could doing so better, so much better. Why
is in the important It's well, we don't necessarily get
a free trade deal, but if we can amongst certain
states there get far bit of deals all of a sudden,
it'll be great for our economy. Indonesia is another opportunity.

(46:41):
We've just got to put more room and more effort
in on the ground. But when I see somebody from
my department, so to speak of, working alongside of US
Trade and Enterprise, working alongside of us, who's serving two
countries where the two populations are one, one hundred and
forty million. I kind of think that people in Wellington

(47:01):
and the Pollox are kidding themselves. It just might work.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
We've just got to get out there, we've got to
be visible, and we've got to be better at skyting.
Don't you think we're not very good at skyting in
this country?

Speaker 2 (47:13):
Well, what do you call it skyting? I mean it's
a salesmanship with touch and sincerity.

Speaker 1 (47:20):
You touched on the antics of last week, and we
can't have a discussion without referring to the Treaty Principal's Bill,
which is following the path that we all knew it
would through Parliament. But one of the political parties sitting
at the extreme end of the opposition have responded with
a protest march throughout the North Island. What do you

(47:41):
make of the antics that are going on at the moment.

Speaker 2 (47:45):
Well, here's the point. What was happening between twenty twenty
three was a serious corrosion of the equality in this country.
But it started international, It started unnational when they recognized
the end of this declaration at the UN which Helen Clark,

(48:05):
at my quest, did not sign up to, or when
they got rid of the Foreshaw and Seabed legislation, and
then he had the Reda and Coastal Areas which is
a disaster at national pass in twenty eleven and now
sees hundreds and hundreds of claims all paid for by
the taxpayer, where most of the claims are a contest
between the ee themselves on the coastline. And however it

(48:27):
gets that disaster. So here comes the point. You got
sadly a party in the coalition that wants its bill,
and we said, okay, you can have your bill, you
can go it to the go to selecting Betty, but
we're not voting it on the second reading. That's it.
We do not subscribe to it. My party said, very
very clearly, you've got a bill outlined that the princess
of the Treaty of White Tonguey, where there are no principles.

(48:51):
Great scholars one hundred and two years ago, like nat
a brilliant man who got a law degree and Master
of Laws. But the hat a lord of a green
record time and his ill even bing A Marai got there.
He had written that the world no princes in the
Treaty of White Tongy. So had brilliant leaders like poor
Murray and Buck who would die. And then also to
James Carroll, who himself was the deputy Prime Minister way

(49:13):
back in the seven government. And here you got May
close to the event not making these claims. And all
of a sudden, after ninety seventy five the courts have
been wrestling about this princess of the Treaty of White Tangy.
None of them could agree, none one can decide it.
And in fact, we had all this creationism going on
in our universities saying what it wasn't And I can
remember charging our challenging Margaret Mutu, one of our electors

(49:35):
electures at Haalkee Universities, who'd made teaching us that radical stuff.
And I said that, come on, you tell me what
the principles of Peaty White tang are that you can
get somebody else to agree with, not just what you
think that somebody else can agree with. And David Seamore's
tragic mistake is he begins by taking I treated his
Governor of principles and trying to say hes going to
define them. And we cannot support that because it is

(49:57):
both based on sand it's a false premise. We want
the Treaty of White Tangy to be properly interpreted at
where it does have an effect, where it should have
an effect, rather than be a decision made by judges
and jurists and all sorts of people who are as
I sort of say, legal activists. We don't want that.

(50:18):
We want Parliament to have the final say, and that's
what we're going to do.

Speaker 1 (50:23):
So you said earlier the previous government. I guess my
view is that the previous government set the expectations of
Maori which have sort of laid the pathway for what
we've got At the moment. People like me and a
lot of the people I talked to are sitting here

(50:44):
saying where does this thing land. You talk about compromise,
you talk about meeting in the middle, but you also
talk about, as you did at you in New Zealand
First Convention earlier this year, one country, one people, one law,
one flag. How do you find the middle ground when
you've got such extreme views.

Speaker 2 (51:01):
Well, you're quite right about the adverse effect of the
previous government and letting you say, let loose these demands
based on racial preference. It was an awful thing to watch,
and this norful thing to watch now, and there's no
way of meeting halfway on this matter. In this context,

(51:21):
I'm half Mari, I'm half Scott's. Which part is going
to compensate? Which? See what I mean? No, I'm the
product of both, and I'm not going to discern my
Scottish side anymore than I'm going to discern my Mara side.
But what these people are doing is discerning one part
of their their background, when it is the massive part

(51:42):
of their background. Some of these people have got less
than five percent marin them, and they spare me out
as somebody like me has been around and was there
at the start of the Orangins before the Mara Land March,
everce got started. Ninety seventy five, Finlakuba was at a
meeting set up by the Marty Wye Land Retention Committee,
which I established. And she's at this meeting and she said, oh, no,
what I'll do, I'll have a Mari Land mars. What

(52:04):
do these young Maray know about all this stuff? My
answer was, why don't you pay attention to what Finacoopa said?
She said, we signed the treaty so that we can
become one people. Now you see what I mean? Shames
will support her to so far, but in the moment
she disagrees with them, then they carry on as though
she's of no importance and they know everything. And I'm saying, no,

(52:25):
you don't. That's not the way it is in the
Maria world. You don't know more than Finnacub. We don't
know more than Peter Buck or night On Palmurray and
all those famous people. And there I said, you don't
know more than a guy called Winston. Peter has been
around a polis long an interview ever been.

Speaker 1 (52:40):
So how do we fix it?

Speaker 2 (52:42):
Well, we fix it by making a stand and ensuring
that we get things down down to a sound footing. Look,
can I say that in every area, when you based
on policy, it should be based on need, not race. However,
if you've got a certain if you've got a race
that has a propensity for a certain disease, as we
found out this family and the bare plenty had a

(53:05):
terrible like a series of heart attacks or conditions, and
we put the money aside three decades ago to find
the answer to that. Now, no one's going to scream
that's racist. But what we've got now is that people
are saying that if you go to get treatment to
the hospital in your Mara, you get treated first, everybody

(53:26):
else lines up. Now, I know that the mass majority
of Mama, majority of Mara don't think that way, They
don't want that. And I believe that the high point
of this disaster, in terms of what we're seeing now,
it will be over tomorrow after this Mars arrives, because
now we get down to the reality of facing up
to what ordinary Maray want. And for everybody that's here

(53:47):
to morrow there'll be something like a thousand Mari working
probably a second job that day to be like the
rest of New Zealanders getting on with trying to be
a good family person. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
Absolutely, And I guess that discussion, mister, plays into the
whole question of stay in Parliament, which I know you've
been vocal on and which many of us, observing the
sneakers and the bare feet and some of the behavior,
would say, we need to get Parliament back to being

(54:21):
being at least something that we're happy to share with
the rest of the world. How do we do that?

Speaker 2 (54:27):
Look, you're so right now. We started out at mockracy
at eighty fifty four. In eighty sixty seven, Mari were
elected to Parliament in the four seats and down through
all the decades and those over hundreds of years, every
Mari coming to parliament came to respect the institution. Then
all of a sudden, this bunch turns out with utter
contempt and the way they're dressed and the way they

(54:47):
behave and the way they act, and the message to
them is and you're not going to get away with that.
The rest of us are not going to take it
and there's going to be a show down here on standards.

Speaker 1 (54:56):
It's not limited to party Mari either, is it.

Speaker 2 (54:59):
No, it's not, but it's had And you know Mahari,
the former Labor Minister, actually would have a serious article
for the Jial Herald and I couldn't agree with them more.
They vote about the fact there's the moment you let
these standards down, all other standards start to fall as well.
And I think what moved them to say other than
the obvious? And why aren't some of us saying it

(55:19):
inside of parliament. Well we have been, we have been
saying it, but we didn't want to be a tact
for being sort of in a nostalgic or old fashion
and what have you. But standards and principles are never
nostalgia and they never old fashioned.

Speaker 1 (55:34):
Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more so. You're a
year into your coalition. I think it was about this
time last year that you signed it. As you reflect
on twelve months, is it going about where you thought?
Is it going better than you thought? Or is it
a struggle compared to where you thought?

Speaker 2 (55:52):
Well, there was going to be a struggle, and I
wasn't wrong. But if you go into a job, try
and make sure that whatever you do, keep your word.
When you suspect others aren't, don't start dating in that.
Stick to keeping your word. We'll get there. But you know,
it's been a hard job because without being too critical,

(56:14):
there are too many people been two little time in parliament, yeah,
or in government. You know, I look back at it.
It's easy for you to say yeah, But I look
back on all these great industrists and all these great
commercial people who started off and their their careers. They
start off with the glimmer, and all of a sudden,

(56:34):
at a certain age they realized when the experience kicks in,
I can do much better and they're going to be
highly successful. I think experience does matter and I thought
so when I first arrived. That's why I sat there
and talk to people like Duncan McIntyre, Rob Muldoon, Tall Boys,
all these people. Was fascinating to get a chance to
talk to them, because you're going to learn something.

Speaker 1 (56:58):
And and you listen, you listen before you talk, as
you as you said earlier. I know you're on a
heicck of a time today, and believe it or not,
we're just about chewed out our our But I've got
a couple more questions, one of which is one that
I ask every one of my guests. But but you're

(57:18):
the first one of my guests that has actually done
the job I'm about to ask you about, So I
don't know how that's going to play out. But the
question goes like this, and I know you've already done it.
If you could be the Prime Minister for a day,
what is the one thing you'd.

Speaker 2 (57:29):
Like to do? I think you could give a whole
lot of answers, but I'd like to put in place
the economic strategy, cement it them and agreed, of course
enough of Parliament to turn this country's economy around to
what it used to be and could be again. A

(57:50):
world leader, because from I think from that comes the abity
to pay for all the other things we want. And
you know what, people just want four things. They want
a decent, affordable home. They want access to health, not
for themselves hopefully, but anyone of them, one of their relations.
They want to be able to put their tool on
the best layers of education, go as far as they like.

(58:11):
And they want first world wages. People are so similar
on that score, and only a better economy can deliver that.
That's what I'd want to do by the job of
being Prime Minister. What a wonderful answer, Minister. You'll be
eighty one at the next election.

Speaker 1 (58:27):
You probably don't want You probably don't want people like
me saying things like that. Your career is already an
amazing achievement. Do you have any idea at this point
in time whether you'll go another term?

Speaker 2 (58:39):
Look, I am going to be standing in god willing
in twenty twenty six because it's too much unfinished business
for this governmant for where we've got to go as
a country. The second thing is the only person people
have to apologize to my family for my life. Of course,
they're the only ones that and my close friends who
I spent too little time with. That's one of the
sacrifices of politics, so to speak. But I have met

(59:04):
someone years ago who went on to be one hundred
years old in the American Senate. His name was Strong Thim.
And then I've had a person who I know very
well called Mahatyr twenty one years prime Minister of Malaysia.
He comes back for a second stint at ninety three
years of age, and he's still alive. He's ninety nine
and still advising them. And then as Warren Buffett is
still bouncing along there with all those people who go

(59:26):
to Aman, Nebraska every year to hear what he's talking about.
So see, age is a handicap for some people. And
I think that you've got to and people got to
think about this. Age frequently is about diet. People need
to get onto good diets. Look, I've had a pretty
full life, but I've been on a good diet for
a long long time, in certain facts, since the sixth

(59:47):
of June nine to eighty. When shortly coming to Parliament,
I looked around my colleagues and all their verse their
best WHI shall wear a vest under our sports cots.
We're all bursting at the seams and I thought, I
need to go on a diet. I've been one ever since.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
Well, well, I hope for yours you're not still bouncing
around in politics at the age of ninety three, and
for your family's sake and for your friend's sake, but
you're certainly proving a hell of a force and you're
doing good work at the moment. So Deputy Prime Minister
Winston Peters, thanks for joining us on leaders getting Coffee.
It's been an absolute privilege to have you. To have

(01:00:26):
an hour of your time is something that I appreciate
very much and so thank you, and I certainly appreciate
you sharing your story with us. Thanks again for joining
us on leaders getting coffee.

Speaker 2 (01:00:38):
Well can I just said, look, and this is very
rare for me, but this one interview has been a
pleasure to be part of.

Speaker 1 (01:00:48):
Thank you. We'll lock that one in. Then finally, my
leadership tip of the week, folks, and I didn't know
that he was going to do it, but he just
repeated some aspects from a speech and I thought, rather
than a leadership tip of the week, it's great for
a thought for the week comes from our guests and
from his speech at the New Zealand First Conference a
couple of months ago, and it goes like this. The

(01:01:10):
vast majority of New Zealanders just want a functioning health system,
a top class education for their kids, first world wages
and an affordable home. That's all. That's what all New
Zealanders want, Mari and non Mari. And that came from
Deputy Prime Minister the Right Honorable Winston Peters at the
New Zealand First Conference in October. In September or October,

(01:01:30):
I've now confused myself, but gee, it's hard to argue
with that. That's it. We're done for another week. Thanks
again for joining us on leaders Getting Coffee Episode thirty
one with our very special guest, Deputy Prime Minister the
Right Honorable Winston Peters. As always, if you have any feedback,
please get in touch at info at leaders Getting Coffee
dot com. Remember that our favorite charity is Buyed for
Blokes dot co dot Nz and we'll be back next

(01:01:52):
week with another great leadership story. Until then, have a
great week and we'll catch you next time.