December 4, 2024 • 13 mins
Another four pilot whales have died in Tasman's Golden Bay, after re-stranding one kilometre north of where their pod was yesterday.
On Monday, 37 whales stranded on Farewell Spit - yesterday, 13 were confirmed dead.
Multiple efforts to re-float the pod have been unsuccessful.
Massey University's Dr Karen Stockin unpacks the emotional toll of the rescue efforts.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks'd be follow
this and our wide range of podcast now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
With the strandings that Fearwell Split whales at the forefront
of our minds again. So it's my very great pleasure
to welcome to the show professor Karen Stock and a
marine biologist at Messi University, to discuss these whales strandings.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Karen, very good afternoons you, thank you for your time.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Jero, nice to have you. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Now just on the Farewell Split situation with these pilot whales,
and I know there were some of the whales that
we stranded and some have been refloated again, I mean,
just when we see the effort of these volunteers and
the likes of Project Jonah, it's a monumental effort, isn't it?
And I imagine quite heartbreaking as well.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Oh, it is, without a doubt. I mean, the amount
of coordination and resourcing in effort that obviously is investing
in obviously refloating these animals is huge, and of course
you've mentioned rightly so of course a lot of that
also is the emotional effort involved in investment, and these
animals are obviously wild animals, but of course people do
(01:12):
form attachments and can empathize with animals and distress, and
so accordingly it's not surprising the heavy toll it takes
some people rescuers are involved.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Now we've got a bunch of questions to come through
on our tech machine ninety two nine two. You can
also ring on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty if
you've got a question for the professor. Here's a question
from Sasha. Why once refloated, how come the whales often
restrand themselves.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Again, Yeah, that's a great question, and like all good
questions as using multiple answers. In some cases we might
have animals that are still disorientated. So if there has
been an issue of disorientation that's caused the stranding in
the first instance, it's not to say that the animals
have been able to basically equilibrize and get their bearing.
So sometimes you can see animals that will literally turn
(01:59):
circle and come full in and you will have problems
in trying to get them back out the deeper water.
Other times it might well be because again there's social
animals and this is a big part of their ecology,
especially mass strandings, they are social, they fall bonds. Sometimes
mothers can be separated from cars. The consequence of that,
we do know that it's very difficult to be able
(02:19):
to get animals adult females, particularly out into deeper waters
if they still have dependence to left on the beach,
or dependence that they have died in the initial stranding.
So we do the range of different things that can
cause this. Sometimes basically there might be actual predators even
in the area, which means that the acoustics of a
nearby orcapod can ensure that the animals won't go further
(02:41):
out and that they will remain closer in as well.
So again, like all good questions, lots of different answers
in every situation seems to be different.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
That's incredibly interesting. So when they have family members that
are stranded, when they strand themselves be with them, do
they think they can help or is it more just
some kind of emotional need to be near the other
members of their family.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
I mean, that's another great question, And the reality is,
of course, is that we don't know. We're obviously can
we can basically project our experiences in terms of being parents,
for example, on being separated from our often but of
course our understanding of marine mammal cognition and also their connections.
We know that they have very strong bonds. That much
(03:24):
we're very clear on, but exactly you know to what
level of cognition they have around whether or not they
feel staying close can actually be in assistance and aid
or whether it's purely, as you say, in an emotional connection.
This and we just don't know the answer to at
this point.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Interesting tikes tire or question from Sam. He says, Hi,
please can you ask your expert why don't they invent
a pump type hose that runs from the sea to
help the whales rather than lots of individual buckets like
a portable hose with a pump to help the volunteers,
et cetera.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Yeah, some great keeming engineity ideas come up here, and
they're often in the shortage of those I mean, as
you can imagine, there's lots of different areas, regions where
these matters standings happen. Now, don't get me wrong, Golden
Bay as a hotspot, we know that. But for those
that know Golden Bay, they'll also know how unforgiving that
title process is in terms of how far it can
(04:18):
how quickly the typing can really go out, so you
know the extent of how far that pump would need
to run, or the logistics. I mean, one of the
things we struggle of at the moment is even getting
fresh water and fresh food to actual volunteers on that
site because it is so remote in the first place,
So depending on how far down the spit the animals
actually strand in the first instance, the logistics of that
(04:40):
are huge. So I think I think the engineering idea
there is great, but a course, like most things, the
actual logistics of the environment that you're working in can
be complicated. But I should say there have been occasions,
and certainly in areas where there is accessibility to beaches,
and certainly where there's been single stranded I know, for
an example, there was a single stranded orca some decades
(05:02):
ago now up in off Fonger Prio. If I'm not mistaken,
we're actually those kind of pu And actually even a
fire truck was used to keep the animal cool. So
I mean, again, there are ways of doing it, but
it all, as most things, tends to be very much
circumstance based, depending on how remote your location is.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
We're talking to Professor Karen Stock and a marine biologist
at Messy University about whales strandings. This is a question
that's come through in nine two nine two from n
are whales breaching more often than they used to?
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Yeah? So I find this question comes up a lot,
and I think again what we need to be clear
on is the different types of strandings. So mass strandings,
which is the type we've got going on at the moment,
and that has been going on for obviously the three
days over for the pilot wells and fail wells. That
that's known as a mass stranding, and a mass stranding
basically is something that has been happening since the eighteen
(05:55):
hundreds in that area. So doc has records right the
way back, you know, hundreds of years where we look
at the consistency and have analyzed the consistency of those
stranding events over those decades. And no, there isn't any
evidence to suggest that we see all of those kind
of mass stranding events now than maybe two three decades ago. However,
as I mentioned, there's lots of different types of strandings.
(06:16):
So for example, there are groups of animals that sometimes
con strand which are not typical to that region or
that particular species for that manner, so they're often known
as unusual mortality events. Now, we do see more of
these now than maybe what we would have done ten
twenty thirty years ago. Likewise, also when it comes from
monitoring strandings, yes, at the moment, if you look at
(06:39):
the recent records of single stranded animals, it would appear
that there are obviously more strandings possibly now than what
they may have been again over more recent decades. The
other flip side to that, though, is when you analyze
that data, you have to take into consideration how observer
coverage has changed over the years. So if you look
in the sixties and the seventies and the eighties, yes
(06:59):
you won't see as many of those single stranding events reported.
But of course were people living closer to beaches, or
being in proximity to those beaches, or walking all creationally
using those beaches in the same way that they do
today when often these animals are reported. So there's also
the observer bias. We do see some differences in trends,
but we also have to recognize that some of those
(07:20):
may not necessarily be a change in the frequency of stranding,
but more a change in the frequency of reporting of
those strandings, which of course are two different things.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Really interesting, and we've in a fantastic conversation with Professor
Karen Stock and a Marine Bolish, a biologist at Messy
University on whales strandings. And Karen, we've got a question
here from David. David your question for the professor?
Speaker 5 (07:45):
Oh, yes, hello, how are you hello?
Speaker 1 (07:49):
David?
Speaker 5 (07:51):
Have you come across the effect on wales with powerful sona?
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Yeah, no, that's a great question. I think you'll find
that there's certainly been a sad bit. Are you asking
the question around how sona itself may impact the whales?
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (08:09):
Yeah, yeah. You know where the signa is coming from,
don't you. The trailers are using it so when they
bring the net in and they get their catch, they
use the sona to direct them to the next pod
of fish because they don't want to run around trying
(08:31):
to where to go. They want the signa to tell
them where it is. Now, as I understand it, I
spoke to doc about it and they were horrified because
they didn't know what was going on there. So the
trailers are using that. Some of their sona, depending on
the frequency, can go one hundred kilometers.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Well, let's we'll just let the professor answer their David's
good question, the effect.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Of human human made sona on Wales.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Yeah, no, it's a really good question. I'd say, to
be fair in New Zealand that there has been limited
studies in relation to our understanding of sonar effects on
marine mammals. Sonar effects with regards to more broad you know,
the military style sona have been done on a number
of species internationally, and I think that for example it
Weales and the Canaries, and certainly in the US. Obviously
(09:24):
we understand as the somewhat limited use of such military
sonar in New Zealand waters, except for in specific testing zones.
But certainly when you talk about sonar and relation to fisheries,
I mean again that the key thing here is in
many cases you're likely to see many cases, more broadly,
behavioral interactions or behavioral changes as a post necessarily depending
(09:46):
on the frequency, I should say, rather than physiological impacts
that you might see from the point of view at
post mortem. So again not to say that you know,
if you're talking about major blasting, major sonar from the
point of view where you could get disruption to ear
canals or bruising as a melon or things like that.
Being yes, we would pick that up in post bordem
(10:08):
I can say that certainly in the ones that we do,
we don't pick that kind of disturbance up in terms
of in a physiological sense to the animals. But that's
not to say there isn't some level of behavioral disruption.
And I take on board your question then, because of
course there is probably lots that we don't necessarily understand
around how dolphins are interacting with fiteries boats.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Thank you for you call, David. Now, obviously Wales aren't
meant to be out of the water. It's horrible on
their organs, on their bones being on land with the
lack of floatation. When does it become cruel to keep
them alive on the beach and who makes the call
to euthanize them if they've been sitting there too long?
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Yeah, that is always a very difficult question to answer,
and the reality of it is and as you've rightly
pointed out, obviously every easy island of myself included, when
we're involved in these mass stranding events, for any stranded
marine mammal event. To be honest, you are hopeful that
you can maximize the survival of as many animals as possible,
So you want to get as many animals back into
(11:06):
the water are fit and non injured, and have the
capability basically of surviving beyond release, because that's obviously what
we're all aiming for now. In some cases, obviously, you
can get animals that have become injured in a way
that's noncompatible to survival. So I don't just mean cuts
and grazes and maybe a bit of blood, because we
can all survive scrapes humans as well as marine mammals.
(11:30):
But what I'm referring to is major damage to pectoralphins
or broken jaws or things that basically would basically disabled
the animal to be able to feed. So in those
kinds of scenarios where they can't they can't mobilize, and
they can't feed, then yes, you obviously have those questions now.
To be fair, obviously that's part of the assessment that
goes on on beaches. So you will find that during
(11:52):
the time the animals are being usually uprighted and stabilized
and kept cool. Both Department of Conservation, who are obviously
on the scene and very much looking at aspects of
how the situations are managed from a legislative point of view.
They are doing so obvious see in in coordination with EWI,
so the local Hapoo who are obviously working and likewise
(12:14):
usually scientists involved as well, so we can help and
identify where animals may not be viable basically for reflotation.
So the decision obviously comes from obviously the authorities in
that sense, but the reality is it's always supported by
the partners.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
So just finally, what should someone do if they see
see a well that's been beached? What's the first thing that.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Should The first thing that you do is, first of all,
just report this. There is obviously O a hundred dog
hot is a hotline and likewise Project Journals O a
tendred number as well of recording the animal's to me.
Obviously you want to be sure. Obviously if you've see
the live animal, then Project Jenner and Department of Conservation
is the first protuct call. Usually in either of those events,
(12:57):
even if it turns out the animal there's not alive,
it will still come through a process of the relevant
people being contacted. Obviously, in the first instance, discussions with
EWI and likewise with scientists such as myself.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Professor, thank you very much for your time. We'll have
to get you back on again.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
No worry, it's happy to help.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
That is Professor Karen Stockton, a marine biologist and expert
them Wile Stranding.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
For more from News Talk st B. Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
You're listening to a podcast from News Talks'd be follow
this and our wide range of podcast now on iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
With the strandings that Fearwell Split whales at the forefront
of our minds again. So it's my very great pleasure
to welcome to the show professor Karen Stock and a
marine biologist at Messi University, to discuss these whales strandings.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
Karen, very good afternoons you, thank you for your time.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
Jero, nice to have you. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Now just on the Farewell Split situation with these pilot whales,
and I know there were some of the whales that
we stranded and some have been refloated again, I mean,
just when we see the effort of these volunteers and
the likes of Project Jonah, it's a monumental effort, isn't it?
And I imagine quite heartbreaking as well.
Speaker 4 (00:51):
Oh, it is, without a doubt. I mean, the amount
of coordination and resourcing in effort that obviously is investing
in obviously refloating these animals is huge, and of course
you've mentioned rightly so of course a lot of that
also is the emotional effort involved in investment, and these
animals are obviously wild animals, but of course people do
(01:12):
form attachments and can empathize with animals and distress, and
so accordingly it's not surprising the heavy toll it takes
some people rescuers are involved.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Now we've got a bunch of questions to come through
on our tech machine ninety two nine two. You can
also ring on eight hundred and eighty ten eighty if
you've got a question for the professor. Here's a question
from Sasha. Why once refloated, how come the whales often
restrand themselves.
Speaker 4 (01:36):
Again, Yeah, that's a great question, and like all good
questions as using multiple answers. In some cases we might
have animals that are still disorientated. So if there has
been an issue of disorientation that's caused the stranding in
the first instance, it's not to say that the animals
have been able to basically equilibrize and get their bearing.
So sometimes you can see animals that will literally turn
(01:59):
circle and come full in and you will have problems
in trying to get them back out the deeper water.
Other times it might well be because again there's social
animals and this is a big part of their ecology,
especially mass strandings, they are social, they fall bonds. Sometimes
mothers can be separated from cars. The consequence of that,
we do know that it's very difficult to be able
(02:19):
to get animals adult females, particularly out into deeper waters
if they still have dependence to left on the beach,
or dependence that they have died in the initial stranding.
So we do the range of different things that can
cause this. Sometimes basically there might be actual predators even
in the area, which means that the acoustics of a
nearby orcapod can ensure that the animals won't go further
(02:41):
out and that they will remain closer in as well.
So again, like all good questions, lots of different answers
in every situation seems to be different.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
That's incredibly interesting. So when they have family members that
are stranded, when they strand themselves be with them, do
they think they can help or is it more just
some kind of emotional need to be near the other
members of their family.
Speaker 4 (03:03):
I mean, that's another great question, And the reality is,
of course, is that we don't know. We're obviously can
we can basically project our experiences in terms of being parents,
for example, on being separated from our often but of
course our understanding of marine mammal cognition and also their connections.
We know that they have very strong bonds. That much
(03:24):
we're very clear on, but exactly you know to what
level of cognition they have around whether or not they
feel staying close can actually be in assistance and aid
or whether it's purely, as you say, in an emotional connection.
This and we just don't know the answer to at
this point.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Interesting tikes tire or question from Sam. He says, Hi,
please can you ask your expert why don't they invent
a pump type hose that runs from the sea to
help the whales rather than lots of individual buckets like
a portable hose with a pump to help the volunteers,
et cetera.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Yeah, some great keeming engineity ideas come up here, and
they're often in the shortage of those I mean, as
you can imagine, there's lots of different areas, regions where
these matters standings happen. Now, don't get me wrong, Golden
Bay as a hotspot, we know that. But for those
that know Golden Bay, they'll also know how unforgiving that
title process is in terms of how far it can
(04:18):
how quickly the typing can really go out, so you
know the extent of how far that pump would need
to run, or the logistics. I mean, one of the
things we struggle of at the moment is even getting
fresh water and fresh food to actual volunteers on that
site because it is so remote in the first place,
So depending on how far down the spit the animals
actually strand in the first instance, the logistics of that
(04:40):
are huge. So I think I think the engineering idea
there is great, but a course, like most things, the
actual logistics of the environment that you're working in can
be complicated. But I should say there have been occasions,
and certainly in areas where there is accessibility to beaches,
and certainly where there's been single stranded I know, for
an example, there was a single stranded orca some decades
(05:02):
ago now up in off Fonger Prio. If I'm not mistaken,
we're actually those kind of pu And actually even a
fire truck was used to keep the animal cool. So
I mean, again, there are ways of doing it, but
it all, as most things, tends to be very much
circumstance based, depending on how remote your location is.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
We're talking to Professor Karen Stock and a marine biologist
at Messy University about whales strandings. This is a question
that's come through in nine two nine two from n
are whales breaching more often than they used to?
Speaker 4 (05:33):
Yeah? So I find this question comes up a lot,
and I think again what we need to be clear
on is the different types of strandings. So mass strandings,
which is the type we've got going on at the moment,
and that has been going on for obviously the three
days over for the pilot wells and fail wells. That
that's known as a mass stranding, and a mass stranding
basically is something that has been happening since the eighteen
(05:55):
hundreds in that area. So doc has records right the
way back, you know, hundreds of years where we look
at the consistency and have analyzed the consistency of those
stranding events over those decades. And no, there isn't any
evidence to suggest that we see all of those kind
of mass stranding events now than maybe two three decades ago. However,
as I mentioned, there's lots of different types of strandings.
(06:16):
So for example, there are groups of animals that sometimes
con strand which are not typical to that region or
that particular species for that manner, so they're often known
as unusual mortality events. Now, we do see more of
these now than maybe what we would have done ten
twenty thirty years ago. Likewise, also when it comes from
monitoring strandings, yes, at the moment, if you look at
(06:39):
the recent records of single stranded animals, it would appear
that there are obviously more strandings possibly now than what
they may have been again over more recent decades. The
other flip side to that, though, is when you analyze
that data, you have to take into consideration how observer
coverage has changed over the years. So if you look
in the sixties and the seventies and the eighties, yes
(06:59):
you won't see as many of those single stranding events reported.
But of course were people living closer to beaches, or
being in proximity to those beaches, or walking all creationally
using those beaches in the same way that they do
today when often these animals are reported. So there's also
the observer bias. We do see some differences in trends,
but we also have to recognize that some of those
(07:20):
may not necessarily be a change in the frequency of stranding,
but more a change in the frequency of reporting of
those strandings, which of course are two different things.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Really interesting, and we've in a fantastic conversation with Professor
Karen Stock and a Marine Bolish, a biologist at Messy
University on whales strandings. And Karen, we've got a question
here from David. David your question for the professor?
Speaker 5 (07:45):
Oh, yes, hello, how are you hello?
Speaker 1 (07:49):
David?
Speaker 5 (07:51):
Have you come across the effect on wales with powerful sona?
Speaker 4 (07:58):
Yeah, no, that's a great question. I think you'll find
that there's certainly been a sad bit. Are you asking
the question around how sona itself may impact the whales?
Speaker 1 (08:08):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (08:09):
Yeah, yeah. You know where the signa is coming from,
don't you. The trailers are using it so when they
bring the net in and they get their catch, they
use the sona to direct them to the next pod
of fish because they don't want to run around trying
(08:31):
to where to go. They want the signa to tell
them where it is. Now, as I understand it, I
spoke to doc about it and they were horrified because
they didn't know what was going on there. So the
trailers are using that. Some of their sona, depending on
the frequency, can go one hundred kilometers.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Well, let's we'll just let the professor answer their David's
good question, the effect.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
Of human human made sona on Wales.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
Yeah, no, it's a really good question. I'd say, to
be fair in New Zealand that there has been limited
studies in relation to our understanding of sonar effects on
marine mammals. Sonar effects with regards to more broad you know,
the military style sona have been done on a number
of species internationally, and I think that for example it
Weales and the Canaries, and certainly in the US. Obviously
(09:24):
we understand as the somewhat limited use of such military
sonar in New Zealand waters, except for in specific testing zones.
But certainly when you talk about sonar and relation to fisheries,
I mean again that the key thing here is in
many cases you're likely to see many cases, more broadly,
behavioral interactions or behavioral changes as a post necessarily depending
(09:46):
on the frequency, I should say, rather than physiological impacts
that you might see from the point of view at
post mortem. So again not to say that you know,
if you're talking about major blasting, major sonar from the
point of view where you could get disruption to ear
canals or bruising as a melon or things like that.
Being yes, we would pick that up in post bordem
(10:08):
I can say that certainly in the ones that we do,
we don't pick that kind of disturbance up in terms
of in a physiological sense to the animals. But that's
not to say there isn't some level of behavioral disruption.
And I take on board your question then, because of
course there is probably lots that we don't necessarily understand
around how dolphins are interacting with fiteries boats.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Thank you for you call, David. Now, obviously Wales aren't
meant to be out of the water. It's horrible on
their organs, on their bones being on land with the
lack of floatation. When does it become cruel to keep
them alive on the beach and who makes the call
to euthanize them if they've been sitting there too long?
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Yeah, that is always a very difficult question to answer,
and the reality of it is and as you've rightly
pointed out, obviously every easy island of myself included, when
we're involved in these mass stranding events, for any stranded
marine mammal event. To be honest, you are hopeful that
you can maximize the survival of as many animals as possible,
So you want to get as many animals back into
(11:06):
the water are fit and non injured, and have the
capability basically of surviving beyond release, because that's obviously what
we're all aiming for now. In some cases, obviously, you
can get animals that have become injured in a way
that's noncompatible to survival. So I don't just mean cuts
and grazes and maybe a bit of blood, because we
can all survive scrapes humans as well as marine mammals.
(11:30):
But what I'm referring to is major damage to pectoralphins
or broken jaws or things that basically would basically disabled
the animal to be able to feed. So in those
kinds of scenarios where they can't they can't mobilize, and
they can't feed, then yes, you obviously have those questions now.
To be fair, obviously that's part of the assessment that
goes on on beaches. So you will find that during
(11:52):
the time the animals are being usually uprighted and stabilized
and kept cool. Both Department of Conservation, who are obviously
on the scene and very much looking at aspects of
how the situations are managed from a legislative point of view.
They are doing so obvious see in in coordination with EWI,
so the local Hapoo who are obviously working and likewise
(12:14):
usually scientists involved as well, so we can help and
identify where animals may not be viable basically for reflotation.
So the decision obviously comes from obviously the authorities in
that sense, but the reality is it's always supported by
the partners.
Speaker 2 (12:28):
So just finally, what should someone do if they see
see a well that's been beached? What's the first thing that.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Should The first thing that you do is, first of all,
just report this. There is obviously O a hundred dog
hot is a hotline and likewise Project Journals O a
tendred number as well of recording the animal's to me.
Obviously you want to be sure. Obviously if you've see
the live animal, then Project Jenner and Department of Conservation
is the first protuct call. Usually in either of those events,
(12:57):
even if it turns out the animal there's not alive,
it will still come through a process of the relevant
people being contacted. Obviously, in the first instance, discussions with
EWI and likewise with scientists such as myself.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Professor, thank you very much for your time. We'll have
to get you back on again.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
No worry, it's happy to help.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
That is Professor Karen Stockton, a marine biologist and expert
them Wile Stranding.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
For more from News Talk st B. Listen live on
air or online, and keep our shows with you wherever
you go with our podcasts on iHeartRadio
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Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.