August 21, 2024 • 34 mins
EnableMe founder and author of Kill Your Mortgage & Sort Your Retirement, Hannah McQueen, shares her best and worst money stories with Liam Dann.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald's Business editor at
Large and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This
is a podcast about money, but we're not going to
tell you how to get rich, and we're not going
to try and pick the next interest rate move. In
this series, I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about
how money has shaped their lives and what they've learned
(00:27):
over the years. For today's podcast, I'm joined by popular
financial advisor, author and founder of enable Me, Hannah McQueen cure. Hannah,
welcome to Money Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Look I said popular there in the intro. You have
become a little bit of a household name from media
appearances over the years. Do you get people recognizing you
in the street and asking for money advice? Now, yes,
I do.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Whether I'm at the mall or I'm doing something maybe
in a restaurant, and someone will come over normally as
I've got a mouthful off foods to ask a question
or to say.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yeah, well that's wondering what if you're splashing out and
you know it's not a.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Good look if I've got shopping bags, for sure.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
But you're generally happy to sort of chat to.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Of course, Yeah, of course I love talking to people.
And I think when it comes to money, it's such
an emotional, an emotional topic, and if someone feels comfortable
talking to you or then that's probably the only person
that there are willing to take advice from. So it's
a privilege.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
So any big question, you have one or two big
questions that you get most often?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yep, the big questions, how do we get ahead? I
don't think I'm going to be able to retire? What
can I do? Or the conclusions people make that they
don't really ask about, but say as a statement, I'm
not really that bad with my money, therefore I can't
(01:54):
see how I could be much better. Therefore there obviously
isn't anything I could do. That's sort of I get it,
like why they've made those conclusions, but it's not quite
the right conclusion.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Well we'll get into some of that. I mean, I'm
in a slightly different space more economics. I tend to
get the question, you know what's going to They want
me to protect the future. You know, what's going to
happen to interest rates, what's going to happen to the economy,
And I don't know how worried should we be about whatever?
And I always say, how worried do you like to?
Because there's always something to worry about.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
That's right, worry about what you can control usually.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah. Well, let's jump back a bit because money talks
are sort of about memories of money and things. What
were your first memories of having money in your hands
and holding money? Do you remember when it first entered
your consciousness?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yep? I remember, I don't know, getting paid twenty cents
to do something. I remember my first purchase that I
really saved up for, which was a pair of white
rebox right, that was my big first purchase. And I
remember saving up for cassette tapes as well.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yep. Yeah, so this this was things that were like
at the rebox obviously, where they were too flash for
the parents just to buy.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, my parents wouldn't have been able to afford them,
or wouldn't have wanted to spend money even if they
could have afforded them on something so trite in their mind.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, it's a good, good life lesson as well, though,
isn't it, because it sort of gets you focused on
what you have to do to get there.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
That's right, you break it down into your little steps.
And I don't know what. I had a little part
time job. I used to deliver pamphlets, and I think
I worked in the library, and I used to do
some busking, and I think I got paid a lot
one particular date, and I think that it was from
a shop owner next to where I was busking, which
was the difference, so I could get my shoes. But
I think they were paying me to stop playing, as
(03:38):
opposed to reward my amazing singing.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I wasn't just guitar or a corder.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I was playing what was it, clarinet? I think was
the main one.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
There always a joint.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
I don't know. I look back, like, why did you
let me play that?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I was quite taken in one while I read it
said you're encouraged by your mother to read the business
pages in the newspaper from a young age, and that
that was sort of where you spotted that you realized
that a large percentage of CEOs out there were accountants,
and then it sparked your interest. I mean, what do
you remember from the business pages in those days?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Well, it felt like a different world, really, And I
guess you've got an option as to whether you want
to be the person who waits on the table or
sits at the table. And I always wanted to be
someone who sat at the table from a career perspective.
And my mum highlighted to me very early on that
I've got expensive tastes or I like nice things, and
(04:39):
so I'm going to need to have to earn good
money for that lifestyle. And so that just sort of
put me on a course. And she said, why don't
you start reading the business pages and see what people
are talking about, see what jobs are available. And maybe
I was at intermediate when I started doing that, so
quite young, and it definitely shaped a path for me.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I mean, we find I've found over the years of
business journalism that people come into it as they get
the mortgage and as they get a bit older, they
get worried and they start reading them. But I guess,
you know, to understand it's quite an advantage really to
understand that language and just understand it's almost like a
sort of soap opera of the economy, then what's happening
in business, And it's not that hard once you make
(05:24):
the leap into it. I always think.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
That's right, that's right, and I think it can be
quite intimidating. So so many people I work with now
wouldn't describe themselves as financially literate, say, they wouldn't nessarily
give themselves that title apart from the fact they know
a lot, but not enough to conclude that they are
confident in this area. And I think sometimes when you
(05:46):
come to it too late, you well, I guess perhaps
it's better to understate what you are instead of overstate.
And I think worse than the person who thinks they
know it all. I've got a few of those cuiet like, dude,
you dial it back, you do not know what you're
even talking about. But that confidence, so they can be
a little reckless.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah yeah, but I mean at some point, I guess,
and i'd certainly feel us through the economic side is
that you know, to actually make money or get financially secure,
you have to act and you have to put things
in place. It's all very well to know a lot
of stuff, but you have to choose to enact inment.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yes, I do think that there's a big gap between
knowing what to do, especially around money, and doing it.
And weirdly we're taught that financial literacy is important, but
it actually accounts for less than three percent of what
you need to be financially successful. And what I say
to my children but also my clients is like financial success,
(06:39):
it is not a right. No one deserves that. You
have to be deliberate. If you want that title of
being successful, you've got to claim it. Yeah, and it's
so different than what it once was as to how
to be successful, because two generations ago, as long as
you weren't bad with money, you were going to be okay.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yeah, you get a job for life and you take
the rights.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
That's right, and the mortgage won't be that high relative
to your income, so by default you'll be mortgage free
by retirement. And you would have been contributing to a
pension scheme. And there were no cafes and there were
no credit cards, so all these things are just easier, right,
Whereas now, even if you live within your means, which
was sort of one of the mantras they lived by,
even if you do that, you were unlikely to own
(07:23):
a property, and you're certainly unlikely to retire without a mortgage,
and you're doing well, you're not bad.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. One of those generational war things
that comes up a lot in articles and is that
spending the money on the cafes and the avocado toast
and all that sort of stuff, But there probably is.
In talking to older you know, older people on this podcast,
you know, you get the sense that there wasn't and
I sort of remember it, there wasn't as much to
spend your money on. And it's not necessarily a choice.
(07:51):
You've got to live in the world you live in,
and it does people do sort of have to consume
more to live in the modern world.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Well, yes, I think there's a lot of a lot
of elements to it. I do think the conditions are
harder because costs are higher, and we work longer, we've
got less time, so we need convenience. You got to
pay for convenience, all of those things. Conditions are harder.
But in addition to that, the generation that has to
live in it is a little more useless as well
financially speaking. So that's kind of the worst combo because
(08:20):
when it gets harder, you're supposed to get better. Yeah,
And they've got harder conditions and they are just they
just have no clue.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
We've got more variables to manage, I guess, Yeah, that's right,
just to keep going on that sort of life journey.
But you know, so at school were you interested in
finance and economics? Did you take the subjects at school?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
I did, Yeah, I found maths fairly easy. I enjoyed
English as well. Those are probably my favorite subjects. And
then I did the accounting and economics and young Enterprise
Scheme and all of those things.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
So you're wearing to go but obviously because you left
school a year early and men straight to you uniit ye, yes,
that right, Yes, I did.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And did my commerce degree and did I've got my
master's in tax as well, and then ended up going
to working at one of the big four accounting firms.
And that's sort of where I started. And I didn't
even I was just a girl from Havelock, North right.
Even the idea of university was quite big. But that
just opened up a whole world of opportunities. Yes, connections, yes,
(09:21):
but the mechanics of how commerce really worked was interesting
to me.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah. And so were your parents involved in that world?
I mean, have a lot North is probably not that
much fun interes stuff going on with it, you know,
just middle.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Class income dad, self employed, mum working part time, just
never wanted for anything, but didn't live large. But no,
it was I think I was the first person on
both sets of the family to go to university.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, it's interesting and then you know, getting into KPMG right,
And I often ask people there's a lot of people
have started in one of those big four you know,
you go on to cb CEOs or whatever, and always
ask because there are some people who stay with it.
It can be like a lifelong thing. You know, you
can go around the world with work in Singapore and
London and New York and all those sort of things.
(10:13):
Was there a reason that you didn't you didn't get
sort of sucked into the sort of the world and
want to stay there because you can live a very
nice life working your way through one of those big organizations.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yes you can, and for some people that is the
right path. For me, I'm not. Although I am a
qualified charted accountant, I'm not an accountant. I'm aware of
risk and I mitigate risk, but I'm not fearful of risk. Yeah,
I'm entrepreneurial. I want to push the boundaries. I want
to challenge status quo and all of that stuff is
(10:48):
not really welcome in those settings for reasons, like specific reasons,
and so I think I.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Was It's very structured, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
I mean instructure, and they think a particular way and
they are paid to think a particular society needs them
to think a particular way because they are sounding board
for so many different things. But you're not going to
get creativity. They are needed. But that's not where I
was able to fit in. And although I was earning
very good money, I still wasn't getting ahead, which was
(11:19):
sort of the mirror reflection. And I think that was
the first lesson for me that Okay, well I am
financially literate and I'm financially confident and I'm earning good income,
so that should be like the three trump cards right there.
Yet it's not translating to progress. And I'm not stupid,
but why is that?
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, so a missing piece of the puzzle, that's right.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
And so I think earning money doesn't mean that you
know how to grow wealth, and I wanted to go
on a journey to try and understand that. With me.
I guess it's the guinea pick of that journey.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah, I mean we see that with people who win
lotto and suddenly four years later they've got no money,
and you know, just just getting money, isn't some in itself?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Often No, No, I've got a few lotto clients actually,
some who have won it as they were a client,
so we had the structures in place, and we've doubled
their winnings, which was amazing. Some who came to me
after they lost it, right, yeah, not ideal, yeah yeah,
and some who were in the process of losing it
because we read.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Those stories, you know, and you hope that the lotto
people put the winners in touch with good financial advice
and get them on a path to that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I think one of the troubles with money or any
form of financial advice is it often is about where
to invest your money, and the person giving the advice
often has a vested interest in what that investment vehicle is.
So as an accountant, I'm like, you're so conflicted in
what you're saying, which whether that's right or wrong. That's
(12:49):
certainly what I concluded that financial advice comes from product
placement in this country and for a lot of the people,
say who win big, whether that's getting an inheritance, a
big bonus, or the extreme of lotto. If they don't
have the systems and the behaviors in place and the
right people around them. Easy come, easy go.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah. So from KPMG you went to a mortgage broking
type firm, Yes, yep, And from what I've read, it's
sort of had an interesting ending. So I won't mention them,
but take me through coming up with the idea for
(13:28):
the business's enabled me and how that ended up.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
So obviously, with my background being accounting in law and
tax and wanting to understand how you grow wealth, whether
that's through managed funds or the property market with leverage,
leverage became such an important part of an investment type,
so using the bank's money, and I wanted to understand, okay, well,
how do you actually get access to this bank's money?
(13:52):
Like I've I've got my own property, I've got my
own mortgage, But what's actually how come someone can get
access to more money than me and I feel like
we've got the same position. These were some of the
things that I was curious about. So I'm like, okay,
well I'm going to get under the hood and I'm
going to work at a mortgage brokering firm to try
and understand how the banks see people because they've got
their own kind of weird calculators they apply. And as
(14:14):
part of that, I was talking to one of my
colleagues and she said, I would be so good if
we help people get out of debt rather than into debt.
I'm like, what a great idea. And so we waddled
up to our CEO and said and like I was
pretty much a graduate, you know, my early twenties, knew
nothing but felt I knew it all. And I went
(14:34):
to the MD and said, hey, why don't we help
people get out of there? This is an idea instead
of into debt, and it's a great idea. Draw us
up a business plans. We drew up a business plan,
took it to him and he said, you're fired, blunt,
And I didn't even get it because I'm very logical
(14:56):
and I'm definitely not emotional in a high stress situation.
Sort of one of my little secret weapons is that
I can be calm and cool, but I can't understand
people who do really dumb things. And so I'm like,
we have given you our business plan, we've told you
what we want to do, and we've said we want
to do it with you, Like what world. Are we
(15:18):
going into competition with you? But I don't know if
it's men, I don't know if it's insecure people. But
he was not having a bar of it. And so
like I am. I am the definition of a goody
good I love to please people. And being fired from
a job at like twenty one or twenty two or
whatever it was maybe maybe it was early twenties, Yeah,
(15:41):
that felt just humiliated.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, that's tough. I think anyone losing the job, even
with a good redundancy and all that sort of stuff,
it's always quite a blow, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
We were marched, so not only was I made where
we fired, but we had to have box. It was
like very American. And I remember calling my husband and said,
can you come and pick me up? And he came
and picked I said what had happened? And he came
and picked me up on his motorbike, and I'm like,
what am I supposed to do with this box? And
it was just like failure after failure In any case.
(16:14):
One of the benefits of being completely humiliated is you
don't really have fear because you have lost everything you
held there. And so that's when I thought, Okay, well,
maybe we should help people get out of there.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
So it's a leap. You know that that leap to
go into business for yourself is quite daunting for people.
I guess this was a sort of a push.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, it was exactly a push with a gun to
your head. And so at that stage, I wasn't even
sure what I was going to do. I felt I
felt all options were kind of taken off the table.
And that's when I thought, Okay, well, maybe maybe there
is something in this business idea. Because it's easy to
have a business idea if someone else is going to
bank roll it, which was going to be the idea,
(16:58):
But when it's you bank and you've still got your
mortgage and you've got all these other commitments, it's game
on at that point, right, Like that's that's the big
boy table. And so I thought, okay, maybe there is
something in it. And that's when I started trying to
work out, well, if I was going to pay my
debt off faster, let's start with how would I structure
(17:19):
my debt to do that. And that's when I started
working through like the calculus algebra of how I should
structure it. And I think the epiphany of that was
who knew that calculus paper at university actually has come
in handy?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Who knew?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Because you know, you do these papers in your life.
I'm never going to apply this ever in life. What
a waste of time. And so I got far enough
to realize I didn't know that much calculus, and I
ended up calling the mathematics department of the University of
Auckland to ask one of their math students if they
would help me work on this formula to pay my
debt off faster at the lowest cost. Because I working
(18:00):
through the mortgage broker, and I came to realize that
you pay three times what you borrow back to the bank,
and they the banks would have us focus on interest
rate discounts and things. And it's like for me on
my mortgage, which was three hundred and fifty thousand, I think,
so I was going to pay a million dollars back.
The interest rate that I was fighting for was going
to save me twelve thousand dollars out of the million dollars.
(18:23):
And I'm I think I'm focusing on the wrong thing here,
and I think it suits them that I focus on
this thing. So anyway, I went to work for a
few months with this particular mathematician at the university, and
we came up with this formula of how to structure
my mortgage to pay it off quickly, at the lowest
cost and with the most flexibility, because that became more
(18:46):
important than I realized at the time, but just a
general awareness that usually whenever you show initiative, you regret
it about a day later. And so if you were
going to commit more money to your mortgage, which could
help you pay it off faster, you probably will need
that money back at some point. And you've dug in
showing initiative, You've actually made it hard for future you
(19:10):
and you haven't even realized it, which became more prevalent
as I got on to enable me. However, those three
things interest costs, speed of pain off the debt, and flexibility.
And I patented that formula and it would save me
the size of my mortgage and interest costs. And I'm
so three hundred and fifty grand back then, and so
I'm okay, I've got it, and then I'm like, hold
on a minute. For this formula to work, I need
(19:32):
to have money left over, because it's about channeling your
surplus into the mortgage and I don't have money left over.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So then you can into budgeting and there.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yeah, but I can write a budget. I'm an accountant.
I can color code a budget. I just wouldn't stick
to a budget.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah, And then I'm like, and why is that? And
that's when I thought hold on, Behavioral economics has more
of a role to play here than financial literacy. And
that's when I spent time researching and experimenting with behavioral
economics why people behave a particular way, and based on that,
how you should respond? Yeah, because I think changing people
(20:08):
like if you if you're programmed to be a spender
as I am, it's not that I can't save. I
just need a reason to save. So engaging me is
different to how you would engage a savor. Yeah, who
actually enjoys not spending money? Who knew that that was
a thing.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Yeah, that's interesting as we were talking about that earlier,
you know, just because it's it's similar to sort of
you can read financial articles and the other articles you
read about, you know, weight loss and how to change
your eating habits, and you can read these things over
and over again. But unless you're able to somehow integrate
it into your life and actually exactly act on it
or make it work, you know, reduce the calories somehow.
(20:46):
You know, there needs to be practical ways to make
it work.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I guess, yeah, you need to have the systems. Like
if you go back to kind of form three science,
when they're teaching you about momentum, right, they would roll
and marble across the science desk or something and say,
when you introduce friction, it slows the pace of the marble.
And I think, well, for anything, but when you're trying
to create progress or financial progress, when you introduce friction,
(21:11):
it slows things down. And the biggest friction to progress
often is your own tendencies around money. And so if
we can make that process where the tendencies aren't fighting
against what you're trying to achieve, how easy can we
make it for you, You're more likely to keep doing it
and get that momentum.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So I guess a lot of what you're doing with
clients is that kind of behavior or economic psychology comes
into it. It's understanding your own. Yes, the way each
client to each person or reader of your book is
you have to understand yourself and you have to understand
what motivates you and what actually stops you achieving things,
(21:52):
and then integrate formulas into it.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
That's right, there's almost two components of it. So when
it comes to maximizing your soup, that is all behavioral economics.
That's to do with your money, beliefs, your tendencies, how
you respond like that's sort of got nothing to do
with your financial position as such. It's just who you are,
what you're not, who you need to hear it from
(22:15):
to actually do it. Those that components. That's psychology. Creating
wealth is science that is calculated steps in a particular
way to maximize an output. But if you haven't got
the psychology and the behaviors right, you never get to
the wealth part. And what I maybe twenty years ago
(22:35):
the surplus wasn't as important as it is now. But
and back in the day, you could sort of almost
if you bought a property, you were gonna be okay
because the conditions were always favorable enough. Even if you
had no clue whether you were buying the right property
and never had a strategy of how you're going to
hold it, you were gonna probably be okay. Whereas now
(22:56):
all that has happened is the margin of error to
get it wrong is very, very small, and if you
don't perform in the acceptable range, you are likely to
get yourself burned.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Yeah, yea. And also I mean, I feel like, as
I've got older, and you know, obviously I'm in the
industry to some extent, I've learned enough about myself to
understand it. But some people will never get it. But
some people sort of learn the stuff later in life
when it's almost you know that the time for the
big gains is almost gone. And so getting people to
understand at a younger age, or helping them to understand
(23:30):
at a younger age what their drivers and their barriers
are is probably pretty key to them, you know, because
of course wealth, you know, snowballs over a long period
of time if you can get going the right way earlier.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
I think one of the benefits of being slightly older, though,
is that you know your runway is short. You've got
one shot to get this right, so you bring your
a game, whereas sometimes when you start too early there
is no real urgency. There's still a romance around under
pretty much everything right, it's not until you yet you
(24:03):
more good, You have your kids. Okay, this is it,
and so I think it is about understanding what your
trump cards are and how you play them. But I
don't think people are particularly good at determining what their
trump cards are. So we think that the trump card
is you should just earn more money. That surely, if
you earn good money, surely you're going to be financially successful.
(24:23):
But all that happens is for most of us, the
more you earn, the more relaxed you become around your money,
and so it doesn't translate to you being becoming more deliberate.
You just have lifestyle creep, So that's not really a
trump card. A trump card might be that you are single,
so you don't have which normally would be perhaps a
financial detriment. But if you don't have a partner that's
(24:46):
sucking your money, that might be here at a trump card. Kids.
If you don't have kids, that is certainly a trump card,
and if your kids aren't talented, that is a trump card.
But if you are older, you've got five years until retirement,
I would say that's your trump card because it's game
on the rubbers, hitting the road here, and there is
a willingness to do what is needed to get the
(25:08):
job done and that mindset shift that only comes from
the fact that your runway. You can see the end
of your runway. That is a trump cart.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, you've become an author. You've turned some of this
into a couple of books, I think, and you've got
one out now. I mean, how was that process and
how did you find sort of trying to codify it
all into an easy read.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I guess it was good. It was good because I
work with so many clients. I think I have this.
I think since I've started Enabled Me, I've been doing
it for sixteen years, I've had twenty thousand client meetings.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
It's a lot of case studies.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
There's a lot of case studies. I feel like I've
seen it all. And with that, you realize that some
things are important, some things we are taught are important
financially but actually aren't. And some things that you don't
even think are important are more prolific in your success
than what you would ever know. But I have seen it.
I've worked with people who are just starting out at sixteen,
(26:06):
that's my youngest client through to eighty six, no money
or in debt, through to one hundred million. Most of
us don't have anywhere close to that. But this is
kind of the extreme. I've had clients that are financially compatible,
clients that aren't, some that don't even know how to
set goals, some who don't know how to stick to
(26:27):
a budget. Like just I feel like I've seen it all,
and I've seen behind the curtain and under the hood,
and sometimes i feel I'm more of a marriage counselor
than a financial advisor, or I'm a cheerleader or whatever
it is. But I know, irrespective of what I'm working with,
what I need to do to get this person into
(26:49):
a better financial position. And it feels great to be
able to present that so people can read it for themselves.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, I mean at sixteen years, have you noticed trends change.
I've noticed that, you know, there has been a resurgence
of young people getting back into the markets with Chasy's
and things and bitcoin, but there's also a sort of
a it's very much a lot of young men starting
out trading sneakers, bitcoin, shazy's all that kind of stuff,
quite quite high risk, kind of glamoury end of it all.
(27:17):
I mean, do you see see these trends come through?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, yes, there are trends, and certainly where there's glamour
attached to it, the trend seems to be higher. I
think that no matter whoever you are, you always benefit
from having a plan that excites you, and trying to
unlock what that could be for you is quite important.
(27:41):
So I had a client that, to the outside world
very successful, earning a couple of one hundred thousand a year,
female at the top of her game, and no savings,
so it doesn't own a home, actually has short term debt,
no savings. On one hand, you're like, how is that
even possible? I mean, come on. And some of it
(28:05):
to do with the beliefs how she's been taught about money,
the role of money in your life when she was
a young child, the fact that her parents didn't know
how to manage money, the fact that she makes more
money than her peers, so she sort of feels guilty
about that, so then wants to be generous. So all
these reasons which help explain, but don't show you what
(28:25):
to do differently, right, And so I said to her,
what is your tendency around money? And she says, well,
I like to spend I'm a shopper. And how what's
your spending style? And she says, I'm fast and I'm loose.
I love it. I'm like, we're going to be good friends.
And for her, she never thought she could pay off
the debt, the short term debt, So the idea of
(28:47):
owning a house just seemed improbable. So what is the
point of trying?
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Right? Yeah, and a lot of kiwi young kikiwis probably
do feel like that exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
They genuinely think they're not going to be able to
get onto the housing ladder. And they can. They just
what their parents. It is unlikely to be the way
that they get there. Yeah, and the parents are the
ones giving them their advice. Oh gosh, So I think
we economically, we can't afford for this next generation to
feel like they can't make progress. That's dangerous when you
(29:17):
remove hope from a generation, financial hope. And whether it's
right or wrong, close to ninety percent of that generation
measure financial successes being able to own a property. Yeah
and so, and then eighty percent feel they never will.
Oh my gosh, this is not a This is not
a healthy coupling for the whole country.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah. Look, I've got a few quick fire money talks
questions here. One of them is what would be the
poorest you've ever been at university? A poor student?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Poor student? I hated it. I was actually talking to
my son about that. I said, I was just so
eager to fin university, so I finished it a little
bit earlier by working harder, and because I hated being poor.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Did you have to take on debt?
Speaker 2 (30:10):
I took on my final year of my masters, but
I managed to work through with a job and working
in the holidays to keep dead down. And my parents
were at that level where they didn't really earn enough
for me to qualify that they earned enough for me
not to qualify.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
For anything allowances, yet not.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Enough to help pay off my fees.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So it was basically a lot of hard work. Flip
side of that, as we often like to ask, what's
the most indulgent purchase you've ever made?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I've got a couple quite recently. Actually. One was I
bought a glamping tent one night, which was weird. I
said to my husband, I said, I feel like this
was a drunk purchase. But I wasn't drunk, but I
felt the need to have a clamping tent.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
No, well, that's why you want a glamping.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Team, so I think I was channeling Swiss family Robins.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
So what is as they're all quite big now, but.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, this is like three bedroom is it? You charge
it out at three hundred.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Four hundred dollars in with you to the wilderness, that's right.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
So that's a bit weird. And then another one. I've
just bought tickets to a concert in England.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Oh cool, Well that's kind of a holiday and concert.
But who are you going to see Taylor? Oh you're
going to see Taylor and Wimberley. Wow, that's amazing. That's cool.
Well that's a that's a life memory though, isn't it.
So when it comes to spending on I mean when
people spend on experiences, it's often hard to fault it
because it is what it is. You've got a limited
time to enjoy life, and yeah, off we go. Yeah,
(31:37):
yeah absolutely. We were talking about Loto earlier and Lotto
winners do quite like to ask, you know, do you
still buy Loto tickets? Do you still imagine winning Loto?
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I don't buy Loto?
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Did you ever?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I don't think I did. I remember taking an oath
to myself saying if I ever won lotto. I would
give it away because I'll never let my success be
a chance, and because I I guess I could retract
the oath. But I've never bought a lotto since somebody, Oh,
there's no point, I'm never going to keep it anyway,
So no, I don't buy lotto.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
And look, one final question. It is kind of a
big fixing New Zealand kind of question, and it's really,
if we can make you prime Minister for the day
or you know, a supreme ruler of New Zealand. Is
there a policy or something that you would do, that
you would want to bring in that you think would
change the game and help New Zealanders New Zealand be
(32:31):
wealthier in a happier place.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yes. Many. In fact, I think that the strength of
the economy is the strength of our middle class, and
the closer or the more compact that middle class is,
the better. And all we're seen at the moment is
that people are becoming poorer and that size of the
middle class, like the lower end of the middle class
is really just working poor rather than those who could
be rich. Very dangerous. So we've got to help those
(32:57):
people become successful. I do think they need to introduce
use a stamp duty or a capital gains tax and
have that actually the proceeds of that directed to deliver
particular financial outcomes. So it's going back and not just
getting lost in the middle.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
So that's about incentivizing some good investment for New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
That's right. And so even if you introduce a stamp
duty a form of capital gains tax on property, say,
and I don't I personally don't think that the family
home should be removed from these things. But let's say
it was only two percent of the profit. Half of
that goes to the local government so they can actually
get their infrastructure in place, and half goes to the
(33:39):
federal right and use that money to grow, Like, why
don't we decide that we want to be the leading
medical something for the world, and why don't we build
more hospitals and do things that actually are going to
help us become more productive. But I probably need more
than a day.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
It sounds well thought through. You have never instidered going
to politics. No hesitation, Okay, no, look, that's great hand
I'm going to leave it there, but fantastic to chat
to you. Thanks for being O Money Talks. Thank you,
Thanks for listening to this episode of Money Talks. If
you want to get in touch, drop me a line
Liam dot Dan at zme dot co dot nz and
(34:21):
you can read more from me at inzidherld dot co
dot nz. Thanks to my producer Ethan Sills and sound
engineer Liann McDonald. Follow Money Talks on iHeartRadio or wherever
you get your podcasts, with new episodes available every Thursday
Hi, I'm Liam Dan, New Zealand Herald's Business editor at
Large and welcome to this episode of Money Talks. This
is a podcast about money, but we're not going to
tell you how to get rich, and we're not going
to try and pick the next interest rate move. In
this series, I'll be talking to interesting New Zealanders about
how money has shaped their lives and what they've learned
(00:27):
over the years. For today's podcast, I'm joined by popular
financial advisor, author and founder of enable Me, Hannah McQueen cure. Hannah,
welcome to Money Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Look I said popular there in the intro. You have
become a little bit of a household name from media
appearances over the years. Do you get people recognizing you
in the street and asking for money advice? Now, yes,
I do.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Whether I'm at the mall or I'm doing something maybe
in a restaurant, and someone will come over normally as
I've got a mouthful off foods to ask a question
or to say.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Yeah, well that's wondering what if you're splashing out and
you know it's not a.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
Good look if I've got shopping bags, for sure.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
But you're generally happy to sort of chat to.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Of course, Yeah, of course I love talking to people.
And I think when it comes to money, it's such
an emotional, an emotional topic, and if someone feels comfortable
talking to you or then that's probably the only person
that there are willing to take advice from. So it's
a privilege.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
So any big question, you have one or two big
questions that you get most often?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
Yep, the big questions, how do we get ahead? I
don't think I'm going to be able to retire? What
can I do? Or the conclusions people make that they
don't really ask about, but say as a statement, I'm
not really that bad with my money, therefore I can't
(01:54):
see how I could be much better. Therefore there obviously
isn't anything I could do. That's sort of I get it,
like why they've made those conclusions, but it's not quite
the right conclusion.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Well we'll get into some of that. I mean, I'm
in a slightly different space more economics. I tend to
get the question, you know what's going to They want
me to protect the future. You know, what's going to
happen to interest rates, what's going to happen to the economy,
And I don't know how worried should we be about whatever?
And I always say, how worried do you like to?
Because there's always something to worry about.
Speaker 2 (02:22):
That's right, worry about what you can control usually.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah. Well, let's jump back a bit because money talks
are sort of about memories of money and things. What
were your first memories of having money in your hands
and holding money? Do you remember when it first entered
your consciousness?
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yep? I remember, I don't know, getting paid twenty cents
to do something. I remember my first purchase that I
really saved up for, which was a pair of white
rebox right, that was my big first purchase. And I
remember saving up for cassette tapes as well.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yep. Yeah, so this this was things that were like
at the rebox obviously, where they were too flash for
the parents just to buy.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Yeah, my parents wouldn't have been able to afford them,
or wouldn't have wanted to spend money even if they
could have afforded them on something so trite in their mind.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
Well, it's a good, good life lesson as well, though,
isn't it, because it sort of gets you focused on
what you have to do to get there.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
That's right, you break it down into your little steps.
And I don't know what. I had a little part
time job. I used to deliver pamphlets, and I think
I worked in the library, and I used to do
some busking, and I think I got paid a lot
one particular date, and I think that it was from
a shop owner next to where I was busking, which
was the difference, so I could get my shoes. But
I think they were paying me to stop playing, as
(03:38):
opposed to reward my amazing singing.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
I wasn't just guitar or a corder.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
I was playing what was it, clarinet? I think was
the main one.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
There always a joint.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
I don't know. I look back, like, why did you
let me play that?
Speaker 1 (03:58):
I was quite taken in one while I read it
said you're encouraged by your mother to read the business
pages in the newspaper from a young age, and that
that was sort of where you spotted that you realized
that a large percentage of CEOs out there were accountants,
and then it sparked your interest. I mean, what do
you remember from the business pages in those days?
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Well, it felt like a different world, really, And I
guess you've got an option as to whether you want
to be the person who waits on the table or
sits at the table. And I always wanted to be
someone who sat at the table from a career perspective.
And my mum highlighted to me very early on that
I've got expensive tastes or I like nice things, and
(04:39):
so I'm going to need to have to earn good
money for that lifestyle. And so that just sort of
put me on a course. And she said, why don't
you start reading the business pages and see what people
are talking about, see what jobs are available. And maybe
I was at intermediate when I started doing that, so
quite young, and it definitely shaped a path for me.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
I mean, we find I've found over the years of
business journalism that people come into it as they get
the mortgage and as they get a bit older, they
get worried and they start reading them. But I guess,
you know, to understand it's quite an advantage really to
understand that language and just understand it's almost like a
sort of soap opera of the economy, then what's happening
in business, And it's not that hard once you make
(05:24):
the leap into it. I always think.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
That's right, that's right, and I think it can be
quite intimidating. So so many people I work with now
wouldn't describe themselves as financially literate, say, they wouldn't nessarily
give themselves that title apart from the fact they know
a lot, but not enough to conclude that they are
confident in this area. And I think sometimes when you
(05:46):
come to it too late, you well, I guess perhaps
it's better to understate what you are instead of overstate.
And I think worse than the person who thinks they
know it all. I've got a few of those cuiet like, dude,
you dial it back, you do not know what you're
even talking about. But that confidence, so they can be
a little reckless.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Yeah yeah, but I mean at some point, I guess,
and i'd certainly feel us through the economic side is
that you know, to actually make money or get financially secure,
you have to act and you have to put things
in place. It's all very well to know a lot
of stuff, but you have to choose to enact inment.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Yes, I do think that there's a big gap between
knowing what to do, especially around money, and doing it.
And weirdly we're taught that financial literacy is important, but
it actually accounts for less than three percent of what
you need to be financially successful. And what I say
to my children but also my clients is like financial success,
(06:39):
it is not a right. No one deserves that. You
have to be deliberate. If you want that title of
being successful, you've got to claim it. Yeah, and it's
so different than what it once was as to how
to be successful, because two generations ago, as long as
you weren't bad with money, you were going to be okay.
Speaker 1 (06:59):
Yeah, you get a job for life and you take
the rights.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
That's right, and the mortgage won't be that high relative
to your income, so by default you'll be mortgage free
by retirement. And you would have been contributing to a
pension scheme. And there were no cafes and there were
no credit cards, so all these things are just easier, right,
Whereas now, even if you live within your means, which
was sort of one of the mantras they lived by,
even if you do that, you were unlikely to own
(07:23):
a property, and you're certainly unlikely to retire without a mortgage,
and you're doing well, you're not bad.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
Yeah. Yeah, it's interesting. One of those generational war things
that comes up a lot in articles and is that
spending the money on the cafes and the avocado toast
and all that sort of stuff, But there probably is.
In talking to older you know, older people on this podcast,
you know, you get the sense that there wasn't and
I sort of remember it, there wasn't as much to
spend your money on. And it's not necessarily a choice.
(07:51):
You've got to live in the world you live in,
and it does people do sort of have to consume
more to live in the modern world.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Well, yes, I think there's a lot of a lot
of elements to it. I do think the conditions are
harder because costs are higher, and we work longer, we've
got less time, so we need convenience. You got to
pay for convenience, all of those things. Conditions are harder.
But in addition to that, the generation that has to
live in it is a little more useless as well
financially speaking. So that's kind of the worst combo because
(08:20):
when it gets harder, you're supposed to get better. Yeah,
And they've got harder conditions and they are just they
just have no clue.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
We've got more variables to manage, I guess, Yeah, that's right,
just to keep going on that sort of life journey.
But you know, so at school were you interested in
finance and economics? Did you take the subjects at school?
Speaker 2 (08:38):
I did, Yeah, I found maths fairly easy. I enjoyed
English as well. Those are probably my favorite subjects. And
then I did the accounting and economics and young Enterprise
Scheme and all of those things.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
So you're wearing to go but obviously because you left
school a year early and men straight to you uniit ye, yes,
that right, Yes, I did.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
And did my commerce degree and did I've got my
master's in tax as well, and then ended up going
to working at one of the big four accounting firms.
And that's sort of where I started. And I didn't
even I was just a girl from Havelock, North right.
Even the idea of university was quite big. But that
just opened up a whole world of opportunities. Yes, connections, yes,
(09:21):
but the mechanics of how commerce really worked was interesting
to me.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah. And so were your parents involved in that world?
I mean, have a lot North is probably not that
much fun interes stuff going on with it, you know,
just middle.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Class income dad, self employed, mum working part time, just
never wanted for anything, but didn't live large. But no,
it was I think I was the first person on
both sets of the family to go to university.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
Yeah, it's interesting and then you know, getting into KPMG right,
And I often ask people there's a lot of people
have started in one of those big four you know,
you go on to cb CEOs or whatever, and always
ask because there are some people who stay with it.
It can be like a lifelong thing. You know, you
can go around the world with work in Singapore and
London and New York and all those sort of things.
(10:13):
Was there a reason that you didn't you didn't get
sort of sucked into the sort of the world and
want to stay there because you can live a very
nice life working your way through one of those big organizations.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yes you can, and for some people that is the
right path. For me, I'm not. Although I am a
qualified charted accountant, I'm not an accountant. I'm aware of
risk and I mitigate risk, but I'm not fearful of risk. Yeah,
I'm entrepreneurial. I want to push the boundaries. I want
to challenge status quo and all of that stuff is
(10:48):
not really welcome in those settings for reasons, like specific reasons,
and so I think I.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Was It's very structured, doesn't it.
Speaker 2 (10:56):
I mean instructure, and they think a particular way and
they are paid to think a particular society needs them
to think a particular way because they are sounding board
for so many different things. But you're not going to
get creativity. They are needed. But that's not where I
was able to fit in. And although I was earning
very good money, I still wasn't getting ahead, which was
(11:19):
sort of the mirror reflection. And I think that was
the first lesson for me that Okay, well I am
financially literate and I'm financially confident and I'm earning good income,
so that should be like the three trump cards right there.
Yet it's not translating to progress. And I'm not stupid,
but why is that?
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Yeah, so a missing piece of the puzzle, that's right.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
And so I think earning money doesn't mean that you
know how to grow wealth, and I wanted to go
on a journey to try and understand that. With me.
I guess it's the guinea pick of that journey.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Yeah, I mean we see that with people who win
lotto and suddenly four years later they've got no money,
and you know, just just getting money, isn't some in itself?
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Often No, No, I've got a few lotto clients actually,
some who have won it as they were a client,
so we had the structures in place, and we've doubled
their winnings, which was amazing. Some who came to me
after they lost it, right, yeah, not ideal, yeah yeah,
and some who were in the process of losing it
because we read.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Those stories, you know, and you hope that the lotto
people put the winners in touch with good financial advice
and get them on a path to that. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
I think one of the troubles with money or any
form of financial advice is it often is about where
to invest your money, and the person giving the advice
often has a vested interest in what that investment vehicle is.
So as an accountant, I'm like, you're so conflicted in
what you're saying, which whether that's right or wrong. That's
(12:49):
certainly what I concluded that financial advice comes from product
placement in this country and for a lot of the people,
say who win big, whether that's getting an inheritance, a
big bonus, or the extreme of lotto. If they don't
have the systems and the behaviors in place and the
right people around them. Easy come, easy go.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Yeah. So from KPMG you went to a mortgage broking
type firm, Yes, yep, And from what I've read, it's
sort of had an interesting ending. So I won't mention them,
but take me through coming up with the idea for
(13:28):
the business's enabled me and how that ended up.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
So obviously, with my background being accounting in law and
tax and wanting to understand how you grow wealth, whether
that's through managed funds or the property market with leverage,
leverage became such an important part of an investment type,
so using the bank's money, and I wanted to understand, okay, well,
how do you actually get access to this bank's money?
(13:52):
Like I've I've got my own property, I've got my
own mortgage, But what's actually how come someone can get
access to more money than me and I feel like
we've got the same position. These were some of the
things that I was curious about. So I'm like, okay,
well I'm going to get under the hood and I'm
going to work at a mortgage brokering firm to try
and understand how the banks see people because they've got
their own kind of weird calculators they apply. And as
(14:14):
part of that, I was talking to one of my
colleagues and she said, I would be so good if
we help people get out of debt rather than into debt.
I'm like, what a great idea. And so we waddled
up to our CEO and said and like I was
pretty much a graduate, you know, my early twenties, knew
nothing but felt I knew it all. And I went
(14:34):
to the MD and said, hey, why don't we help
people get out of there? This is an idea instead
of into debt, and it's a great idea. Draw us
up a business plans. We drew up a business plan,
took it to him and he said, you're fired, blunt,
And I didn't even get it because I'm very logical
(14:56):
and I'm definitely not emotional in a high stress situation.
Sort of one of my little secret weapons is that
I can be calm and cool, but I can't understand
people who do really dumb things. And so I'm like,
we have given you our business plan, we've told you
what we want to do, and we've said we want
to do it with you, Like what world. Are we
(15:18):
going into competition with you? But I don't know if
it's men, I don't know if it's insecure people. But
he was not having a bar of it. And so
like I am. I am the definition of a goody
good I love to please people. And being fired from
a job at like twenty one or twenty two or
whatever it was maybe maybe it was early twenties, Yeah,
(15:41):
that felt just humiliated.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, that's tough. I think anyone losing the job, even
with a good redundancy and all that sort of stuff,
it's always quite a blow, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
We were marched, so not only was I made where
we fired, but we had to have box. It was
like very American. And I remember calling my husband and said,
can you come and pick me up? And he came
and picked I said what had happened? And he came
and picked me up on his motorbike, and I'm like,
what am I supposed to do with this box? And
it was just like failure after failure In any case.
(16:14):
One of the benefits of being completely humiliated is you
don't really have fear because you have lost everything you
held there. And so that's when I thought, Okay, well,
maybe we should help people get out of there.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
So it's a leap. You know that that leap to
go into business for yourself is quite daunting for people.
I guess this was a sort of a push.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
Yeah, it was exactly a push with a gun to
your head. And so at that stage, I wasn't even
sure what I was going to do. I felt I
felt all options were kind of taken off the table.
And that's when I thought, Okay, well, maybe maybe there
is something in this business idea. Because it's easy to
have a business idea if someone else is going to
bank roll it, which was going to be the idea,
(16:58):
But when it's you bank and you've still got your
mortgage and you've got all these other commitments, it's game
on at that point, right, Like that's that's the big
boy table. And so I thought, okay, maybe there is
something in it. And that's when I started trying to
work out, well, if I was going to pay my
debt off faster, let's start with how would I structure
(17:19):
my debt to do that. And that's when I started
working through like the calculus algebra of how I should
structure it. And I think the epiphany of that was
who knew that calculus paper at university actually has come
in handy?
Speaker 1 (17:35):
Who knew?
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Because you know, you do these papers in your life.
I'm never going to apply this ever in life. What
a waste of time. And so I got far enough
to realize I didn't know that much calculus, and I
ended up calling the mathematics department of the University of
Auckland to ask one of their math students if they
would help me work on this formula to pay my
debt off faster at the lowest cost. Because I working
(18:00):
through the mortgage broker, and I came to realize that
you pay three times what you borrow back to the bank,
and they the banks would have us focus on interest
rate discounts and things. And it's like for me on
my mortgage, which was three hundred and fifty thousand, I think,
so I was going to pay a million dollars back.
The interest rate that I was fighting for was going
to save me twelve thousand dollars out of the million dollars.
(18:23):
And I'm I think I'm focusing on the wrong thing here,
and I think it suits them that I focus on
this thing. So anyway, I went to work for a
few months with this particular mathematician at the university, and
we came up with this formula of how to structure
my mortgage to pay it off quickly, at the lowest
cost and with the most flexibility, because that became more
(18:46):
important than I realized at the time, but just a
general awareness that usually whenever you show initiative, you regret
it about a day later. And so if you were
going to commit more money to your mortgage, which could
help you pay it off faster, you probably will need
that money back at some point. And you've dug in
showing initiative, You've actually made it hard for future you
(19:10):
and you haven't even realized it, which became more prevalent
as I got on to enable me. However, those three
things interest costs, speed of pain off the debt, and flexibility.
And I patented that formula and it would save me
the size of my mortgage and interest costs. And I'm
so three hundred and fifty grand back then, and so
I'm okay, I've got it, and then I'm like, hold
on a minute. For this formula to work, I need
(19:32):
to have money left over, because it's about channeling your
surplus into the mortgage and I don't have money left over.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
So then you can into budgeting and there.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Yeah, but I can write a budget. I'm an accountant.
I can color code a budget. I just wouldn't stick
to a budget.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
Yeah, And then I'm like, and why is that? And
that's when I thought hold on, Behavioral economics has more
of a role to play here than financial literacy. And
that's when I spent time researching and experimenting with behavioral
economics why people behave a particular way, and based on that,
how you should respond? Yeah, because I think changing people
(20:08):
like if you if you're programmed to be a spender
as I am, it's not that I can't save. I
just need a reason to save. So engaging me is
different to how you would engage a savor. Yeah, who
actually enjoys not spending money? Who knew that that was
a thing.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Yeah, that's interesting as we were talking about that earlier,
you know, just because it's it's similar to sort of
you can read financial articles and the other articles you
read about, you know, weight loss and how to change
your eating habits, and you can read these things over
and over again. But unless you're able to somehow integrate
it into your life and actually exactly act on it
or make it work, you know, reduce the calories somehow.
(20:46):
You know, there needs to be practical ways to make
it work.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
I guess, yeah, you need to have the systems. Like
if you go back to kind of form three science,
when they're teaching you about momentum, right, they would roll
and marble across the science desk or something and say,
when you introduce friction, it slows the pace of the marble.
And I think, well, for anything, but when you're trying
to create progress or financial progress, when you introduce friction,
(21:11):
it slows things down. And the biggest friction to progress
often is your own tendencies around money. And so if
we can make that process where the tendencies aren't fighting
against what you're trying to achieve, how easy can we
make it for you, You're more likely to keep doing it
and get that momentum.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
So I guess a lot of what you're doing with
clients is that kind of behavior or economic psychology comes
into it. It's understanding your own. Yes, the way each
client to each person or reader of your book is
you have to understand yourself and you have to understand
what motivates you and what actually stops you achieving things,
(21:52):
and then integrate formulas into it.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
That's right, there's almost two components of it. So when
it comes to maximizing your soup, that is all behavioral economics.
That's to do with your money, beliefs, your tendencies, how
you respond like that's sort of got nothing to do
with your financial position as such. It's just who you are,
what you're not, who you need to hear it from
(22:15):
to actually do it. Those that components. That's psychology. Creating
wealth is science that is calculated steps in a particular
way to maximize an output. But if you haven't got
the psychology and the behaviors right, you never get to
the wealth part. And what I maybe twenty years ago
(22:35):
the surplus wasn't as important as it is now. But
and back in the day, you could sort of almost
if you bought a property, you were gonna be okay
because the conditions were always favorable enough. Even if you
had no clue whether you were buying the right property
and never had a strategy of how you're going to
hold it, you were gonna probably be okay. Whereas now
(22:56):
all that has happened is the margin of error to
get it wrong is very, very small, and if you
don't perform in the acceptable range, you are likely to
get yourself burned.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
Yeah, yea. And also I mean, I feel like, as
I've got older, and you know, obviously I'm in the
industry to some extent, I've learned enough about myself to
understand it. But some people will never get it. But
some people sort of learn the stuff later in life
when it's almost you know that the time for the
big gains is almost gone. And so getting people to
understand at a younger age, or helping them to understand
(23:30):
at a younger age what their drivers and their barriers
are is probably pretty key to them, you know, because
of course wealth, you know, snowballs over a long period
of time if you can get going the right way earlier.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
I think one of the benefits of being slightly older, though,
is that you know your runway is short. You've got
one shot to get this right, so you bring your
a game, whereas sometimes when you start too early there
is no real urgency. There's still a romance around under
pretty much everything right, it's not until you yet you
(24:03):
more good, You have your kids. Okay, this is it,
and so I think it is about understanding what your
trump cards are and how you play them. But I
don't think people are particularly good at determining what their
trump cards are. So we think that the trump card
is you should just earn more money. That surely, if
you earn good money, surely you're going to be financially successful.
(24:23):
But all that happens is for most of us, the
more you earn, the more relaxed you become around your money,
and so it doesn't translate to you being becoming more deliberate.
You just have lifestyle creep, So that's not really a
trump card. A trump card might be that you are single,
so you don't have which normally would be perhaps a
financial detriment. But if you don't have a partner that's
(24:46):
sucking your money, that might be here at a trump card. Kids.
If you don't have kids, that is certainly a trump card,
and if your kids aren't talented, that is a trump card.
But if you are older, you've got five years until retirement,
I would say that's your trump card because it's game
on the rubbers, hitting the road here, and there is
a willingness to do what is needed to get the
(25:08):
job done and that mindset shift that only comes from
the fact that your runway. You can see the end
of your runway. That is a trump cart.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, you've become an author. You've turned some of this
into a couple of books, I think, and you've got
one out now. I mean, how was that process and
how did you find sort of trying to codify it
all into an easy read.
Speaker 2 (25:27):
I guess it was good. It was good because I
work with so many clients. I think I have this.
I think since I've started Enabled Me, I've been doing
it for sixteen years, I've had twenty thousand client meetings.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
It's a lot of case studies.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
There's a lot of case studies. I feel like I've
seen it all. And with that, you realize that some
things are important, some things we are taught are important
financially but actually aren't. And some things that you don't
even think are important are more prolific in your success
than what you would ever know. But I have seen it.
I've worked with people who are just starting out at sixteen,
(26:06):
that's my youngest client through to eighty six, no money
or in debt, through to one hundred million. Most of
us don't have anywhere close to that. But this is
kind of the extreme. I've had clients that are financially compatible,
clients that aren't, some that don't even know how to
set goals, some who don't know how to stick to
(26:27):
a budget. Like just I feel like I've seen it all,
and I've seen behind the curtain and under the hood,
and sometimes i feel I'm more of a marriage counselor
than a financial advisor, or I'm a cheerleader or whatever
it is. But I know, irrespective of what I'm working with,
what I need to do to get this person into
(26:49):
a better financial position. And it feels great to be
able to present that so people can read it for themselves.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Yeah, I mean at sixteen years, have you noticed trends change.
I've noticed that, you know, there has been a resurgence
of young people getting back into the markets with Chasy's
and things and bitcoin, but there's also a sort of
a it's very much a lot of young men starting
out trading sneakers, bitcoin, shazy's all that kind of stuff,
quite quite high risk, kind of glamoury end of it all.
(27:17):
I mean, do you see see these trends come through?
Speaker 2 (27:19):
Yeah, yes, there are trends, and certainly where there's glamour
attached to it, the trend seems to be higher. I
think that no matter whoever you are, you always benefit
from having a plan that excites you, and trying to
unlock what that could be for you is quite important.
(27:41):
So I had a client that, to the outside world
very successful, earning a couple of one hundred thousand a year,
female at the top of her game, and no savings,
so it doesn't own a home, actually has short term debt,
no savings. On one hand, you're like, how is that
even possible? I mean, come on. And some of it
(28:05):
to do with the beliefs how she's been taught about money,
the role of money in your life when she was
a young child, the fact that her parents didn't know
how to manage money, the fact that she makes more
money than her peers, so she sort of feels guilty
about that, so then wants to be generous. So all
these reasons which help explain, but don't show you what
(28:25):
to do differently, right, And so I said to her,
what is your tendency around money? And she says, well,
I like to spend I'm a shopper. And how what's
your spending style? And she says, I'm fast and I'm loose.
I love it. I'm like, we're going to be good friends.
And for her, she never thought she could pay off
the debt, the short term debt, So the idea of
(28:47):
owning a house just seemed improbable. So what is the
point of trying?
Speaker 1 (28:51):
Right? Yeah, and a lot of kiwi young kikiwis probably
do feel like that exactly.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
They genuinely think they're not going to be able to
get onto the housing ladder. And they can. They just
what their parents. It is unlikely to be the way
that they get there. Yeah, and the parents are the
ones giving them their advice. Oh gosh, So I think
we economically, we can't afford for this next generation to
feel like they can't make progress. That's dangerous when you
(29:17):
remove hope from a generation, financial hope. And whether it's
right or wrong, close to ninety percent of that generation
measure financial successes being able to own a property. Yeah
and so, and then eighty percent feel they never will.
Oh my gosh, this is not a This is not
a healthy coupling for the whole country.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
Yeah. Look, I've got a few quick fire money talks
questions here. One of them is what would be the
poorest you've ever been at university? A poor student?
Speaker 2 (29:53):
Poor student? I hated it. I was actually talking to
my son about that. I said, I was just so
eager to fin university, so I finished it a little
bit earlier by working harder, and because I hated being poor.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Did you have to take on debt?
Speaker 2 (30:10):
I took on my final year of my masters, but
I managed to work through with a job and working
in the holidays to keep dead down. And my parents
were at that level where they didn't really earn enough
for me to qualify that they earned enough for me
not to qualify.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
For anything allowances, yet not.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
Enough to help pay off my fees.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
So it was basically a lot of hard work. Flip
side of that, as we often like to ask, what's
the most indulgent purchase you've ever made?
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I've got a couple quite recently. Actually. One was I
bought a glamping tent one night, which was weird. I
said to my husband, I said, I feel like this
was a drunk purchase. But I wasn't drunk, but I
felt the need to have a clamping tent.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
No, well, that's why you want a glamping.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Team, so I think I was channeling Swiss family Robins.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
So what is as they're all quite big now, but.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
Yeah, this is like three bedroom is it? You charge
it out at three hundred.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Four hundred dollars in with you to the wilderness, that's right.
Speaker 2 (31:11):
So that's a bit weird. And then another one. I've
just bought tickets to a concert in England.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
Oh cool, Well that's kind of a holiday and concert.
But who are you going to see Taylor? Oh you're
going to see Taylor and Wimberley. Wow, that's amazing. That's cool.
Well that's a that's a life memory though, isn't it.
So when it comes to spending on I mean when
people spend on experiences, it's often hard to fault it
because it is what it is. You've got a limited
time to enjoy life, and yeah, off we go. Yeah,
(31:37):
yeah absolutely. We were talking about Loto earlier and Lotto
winners do quite like to ask, you know, do you
still buy Loto tickets? Do you still imagine winning Loto?
Speaker 2 (31:45):
I don't buy Loto?
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Did you ever?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
I don't think I did. I remember taking an oath
to myself saying if I ever won lotto. I would
give it away because I'll never let my success be
a chance, and because I I guess I could retract
the oath. But I've never bought a lotto since somebody, Oh,
there's no point, I'm never going to keep it anyway,
So no, I don't buy lotto.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
And look, one final question. It is kind of a
big fixing New Zealand kind of question, and it's really,
if we can make you prime Minister for the day
or you know, a supreme ruler of New Zealand. Is
there a policy or something that you would do, that
you would want to bring in that you think would
change the game and help New Zealanders New Zealand be
(32:31):
wealthier in a happier place.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
Yes. Many. In fact, I think that the strength of
the economy is the strength of our middle class, and
the closer or the more compact that middle class is,
the better. And all we're seen at the moment is
that people are becoming poorer and that size of the
middle class, like the lower end of the middle class
is really just working poor rather than those who could
be rich. Very dangerous. So we've got to help those
(32:57):
people become successful. I do think they need to introduce
use a stamp duty or a capital gains tax and
have that actually the proceeds of that directed to deliver
particular financial outcomes. So it's going back and not just
getting lost in the middle.
Speaker 1 (33:12):
So that's about incentivizing some good investment for New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
That's right. And so even if you introduce a stamp
duty a form of capital gains tax on property, say,
and I don't I personally don't think that the family
home should be removed from these things. But let's say
it was only two percent of the profit. Half of
that goes to the local government so they can actually
get their infrastructure in place, and half goes to the
(33:39):
federal right and use that money to grow, Like, why
don't we decide that we want to be the leading
medical something for the world, and why don't we build
more hospitals and do things that actually are going to
help us become more productive. But I probably need more
than a day.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
It sounds well thought through. You have never instidered going
to politics. No hesitation, Okay, no, look, that's great hand
I'm going to leave it there, but fantastic to chat
to you. Thanks for being O Money Talks. Thank you,
Thanks for listening to this episode of Money Talks. If
you want to get in touch, drop me a line
Liam dot Dan at zme dot co dot nz and
(34:21):
you can read more from me at inzidherld dot co
dot nz. Thanks to my producer Ethan Sills and sound
engineer Liann McDonald. Follow Money Talks on iHeartRadio or wherever
you get your podcasts, with new episodes available every Thursday
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