June 5, 2024 • 46 mins
On this episode, Murray is joined by one of the off-field heroes of sport, John 'Doc' Mayhew. Deaks and John recap his career as team doctor of the All Blacks and Warriors, they unpack the big issue of CTE and talk about his special relationship with Jonah Lomu
Murray Deaker has been interviewing the biggest names in sport for 40 years. 'Murray Deaker’s Sporting Lives' will interview legends of sport, uncovering their stories. Full of memories, theories, and opinion. And no nonsense! 'Murray Deaker’s Sporting Lives' podcast brought to you by Gold Sport.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Gold Sport presents Murray Deeker's Sporting Lives with Callaway, the
leading manufacturer of premium golf clubs, balls and accessories worldwide.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi Murray Deeker here, Welcome to season two of my podcast,
Murray Deeker's Sporting Lives. During my career, I spent over
forty years interviewing the biggest names in sport and I'm
thrilled to be back bringing you this podcast talking to
sporting legends and giving you a look into their world
(00:33):
to hear their memories, their stories and some opinion too. Now,
it's not always the people on the field or the
court who are vital to a team performance. There are
those that support behind the scenes to ensure the high
performance of our athletes. If you've watched the All Blacks
(00:54):
or the Warriors in recent years, you would have seen
them on the sideline. The doc, yes, doctor John Mayhew.
He's been part of the fabric of New Zealand rugby
and league and he was recognized for his work as
a sports doctor by being awarded the Officer of the
New Zealand Order of Merit.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
He joins us Murray Dicker's Sporting Lives.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
John, what is the role of a sports doctor to
a team.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Hello Murray. Yes, it's an interesting question. That is that
it's sort of evolved over time, and I see my
role as a team doctor to provide medical services to
the team, to ensure player welfare, and to assist the
coach and selection of players on medical grounds and things
like that. I think the role has moved on that
(01:47):
you're responsible for the care of players after their careers
as well, and I think you know, in head andary
space and things like that, you've got to give sage
advice to players about whether they should continue playing their
sport or are any long term consequences of their sport.
So I think it's an advisory role in parts of
(02:07):
my career. I've done other roles with teams. You've helped
out at training, You've helped you know, hold tackle bags
and do other bits and pieces. But the important thing
is to give medical advice. And I think at times
you need to stand back, you know, from the team
selection and think my job is to look after the
medical welfare and provide medical support to the players and
(02:28):
not just be a supporter of the players.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
That's not easy to do, John, is it? Because occasionally
there will be a player that a coach is desperate
to get on the field and you know he shouldn't be.
Do they listen to you?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I think predominantly they do, And certainly I've been fortunate
to work with some very strong characters, you know, Alex Wiley,
Lorrie Maynes, John Hart, and they certainly at times pushed
me to the limit to say, is it's safe for
these players to play? And you know, we've had a
couple of medical skirmishes at times, But I think, especially nowadays,
I think the coaching staff are very aware of the
(03:06):
risks of playing sport and the medical risks. But you know,
through my career there's been a few incidents where you know,
it's been touch and go whether a player should be
playing with a head injury or with other injuries. And
to say we've had robust discussions at times as perhaps
an understatement.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, I could imagine the names that you just mentioned then,
because they do want to get the best players on
the field, and you know, we'll deal with a concussion
one in a moment or two. How did the job
differ from the All Blacks to the Warriors, from union
to league?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
And in some ways it was very very similar and
in other ways it was very very different. When I
went into the Warriors from a large All Black involvement
of fifteen years, rugby league was a bit behind the
eight ball and sort of medical management. There still was
that sort of bravado about you know, a player getting
(04:01):
knocked out, getting up and playing on and you know
he's a very tough individual. We had the issue with,
you know, shoulder charge and things like that. However with time,
you know that's changed rugby league and certainly the NRL
have come to the party. They put good structures in place.
The shoulder charge, which I was part of the group
that we had helped outlaw that we were told at
(04:23):
the time by the prominent ex players that it would
ruin the game. I don't think anyone's noticed it's gone
now and you know it certainly a dangerous event, you know,
to the tackler and to the person being tackled. So
I think it means the rugby league was a bit
behind the times the medical welfare of its players, but
(04:44):
I think it's moved up in some ways. Rugby league
was a bit easy looking after the Warriors and the
All Blacks, because you had one group of players for
forty five weeks of the year basically where the All Blacks.
Part of my role was monitoring them from a distance.
Sleeper rugby. You know, the coaches will be wanting to
be updates on player welfare and things like that, so
(05:06):
they could pick these squads for you know, the various
competitions that the All Blacks playing. So but you know,
medically the players are easy to look after, and certainly
generally the players are much more easy to look after
sometimes in the coaching staff.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
One of the fascinations to me, and it's not really
a medical thing, it's a psychological thing, is that Rugby
for years and years used to put the players into
the changing room and scream and yell at them the
coach did before the game. And I was told that
way way back in time when that was happening to
you and I, when we were playing in rugby, the
league didn't do that. Guys came in, they'd have a
(05:44):
yearn and flick the switch and they'd go out.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yeah, I mean that was the first thing I noticed
when I went to the Warriors the first game. There
was music in the changing rooms up till about thirty
minutes before the game. Everyone was relaxed, and then they
switched on. And I think the ranting and raving of
the coaches as a thing of the past. And you know,
I can think of playing against people like John Hart
when he's a player and player coach, and he was
(06:08):
a bit of a renter in those days. With due
respect to John, but when he was an All Black coach,
he was very sort of mild mannered, quiet, And I
think a lot of a team talk has now done
at the team hotel or well before the game, and
there's not much that can be said in the changing room.
You know, beforehand, I've had the fortunately in the changing
room with people like Craig Bellamy and Dayne Bennett and
(06:31):
things like that. And you know, despite the public personas,
they're not really renters in the changing room. It's getting
information across and telling people tactical stuff rather than abusing
their heritage, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Did the job itself differ at all from one to
the other, from the All Blacks to the Warriors.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
It was in some ways a bit easier with the
Warriors because I had, as I mentioned, I had the
same group of players for a prolonged period of time.
We had a home base, we okay. We were traveling
to Australia every second week for the away games, but
you got into a routine of doing that. The home
games were easy to deal with. It wasn't so much
time away from family and things like that, so it
(07:15):
was easier in that sense, where in my All Black
days the first couple of few years the tours were
six to eight to nine weeks away permanently at the time,
and having had a young family at that time, it
was difficult at times. And of course the first few
years of quite a few number of years with the
All Blacks Wizard in a voluntary position, we got a
(07:35):
nominal amount of money, you know, as did the players,
so it was financially quite hard. We're in later days
in professional Aragua professional rugby league. I was getting paid
for my time, so it was easier in that sense.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
John, Let's get to the nuts and bolts of the
whole issue and the thing that people are probably waiting
to hear your expert opinion on head knocks. How serious
to our health are they?
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Oh? They're very serious. I mean there's no denying that
getting hit on the head repetitively is not good for
your brain, and I think part of the changes have
happened in rugby and rugby league is monitoring players in
two ways. One is that when they get the acute injury,
we make sure we take the player from the field,
manage them appropriately with the appropriate tests and neuropsychometric testing
(08:22):
and things like that, and ensure that when they return
to play, it's safe to return to play. I think
we also have to be aware of players that have
gone beforehand, what are the long term consequences of perhaps
less than ideal management of head injury. But I think
we have to take it into perspective that just because
you're an ex rugby league or an X rugby player
(08:42):
who in later life develops, unfortunately a dementia like illness,
it may not be related to your sporting involvement. So
I think there's a number of studies coming out and
usual Rugby are doing a very good one of X players.
You know, they're looking at the former first class players,
and the incidence of neurodegenitive disorders is not much higher
(09:04):
than the general population. And what I mean by neurodegenitive
is dementia, Parkinson's and things like that. So we've got
to be careful about overegging the situation. But also we've
got to manage players now, and I think we're doing
it much much better. So I think the doctors and
medical staff and coaching staff are aware of that, the
players are aware of it, and I think if head
(09:25):
injury is managed correctly, you know, there should be no
long term consequences. However, part of that of the medical
role is to make sure that people have recovered appropriately
and it's safe to return to the field.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Now, there are head knocks and head knocks, so how
do you determine the severity of a knock.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
I think you've raised a good question there, and if
I knew the one hundred percent answer, I'd be a
rich man. We've got a number of tests now that
we do screening tests for players before the season. I
have sidelined imaging so we can look at the you
know what's happened on the video. We have the mouthguard
which tells us, you know, the severity of the impact
(10:10):
and things like that. So we've got a number of
tools that we can use. We do neuropsychometric testing pre
season and compare that, you know, their pre season levels
with their post injury levels. So these are all indirect
measures of head injury. What would like it to be
a scan or a blood test or something to say,
(10:30):
you know, Murray Deek has had a head injury, the
scan shows this, and when the scan goes back to normal,
we know he's made a full recovery. We haven't got
those tools now. There are a number of other tests
being researched, you know, saliva testing to look at certain
tests to see if the severity of the injury was
showing up in a particular biomarker. So we're doing it
(10:54):
sort of indirectly, if you know what I mean by
looking at neuropsychometric testing and at the end of the day,
and I had an example with Liam McDonald and Richie
McCay years ago that often the tests would come back
to normal and the players would just not quite feel right,
you know, So there was a lot of subjective about it,
and you'd have to listen to that. You know that
(11:15):
the testing was good to a certain point, but if
the player wasn't confident about playing, or I felt that
he had some residual problems there, we'd listened to that,
and you know, so it's science, but it's it's still
not exact science. But it's the best we've got at
the present time.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Many of us have seen the Sunday program, the Tragic
Story of Billy Guidon. Did you see it and what's
your reaction?
Speaker 3 (11:42):
I did, And obviously I haven't had the privilege of
treating Billy, But what I do know that he had
a post warden which showed changes consistent with CTE. But
they're not diagnosedic of CTE.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Not there because not everybody's medical CTE. What does A stand.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
For chronic traumatic and carephilopathy? So basically it's a change
in the brain. It's only diagnosed at post mortem, so
you have to have examination of the brain, so we
can't make it during life. And unfortunately, these changes, the
pathological changes, can be seen in other conditions as well,
(12:25):
so it's not what we call pathanomonic. It's certainly consistent
with the diagnosis of ct that it can be seen
in other conditions as well, and so that's that's the
problem we have. So certainly, from what I understand from
that program, the brain changes at autopsy were consistent with CTE.
(12:48):
I understand that Billy Geiden had a long history of
psychiatric disorders and was I think bipolar from what I've
heard in the media, and that's the signalificant medical illness.
I think his death may be self inflicted, which may
reflect is as illness. So I don't have enough medical
(13:11):
information there, but I could say. All I could say
is that the changes in the the autopsy were consistent
with that diagnosis. It doesn't mean the diagnosis was CTE.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
See the autopsy showed that the CTE would do some
extent explain his depression and anxiety. Now New Zealand Rugby
refuses to accept that CT leads to depression. Do you
agree with New Zealand Rugby.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
No, I don't know if they quite said that. They
said there are other causes of dementia like illnesses, and
if we look at in the broadest sense, murray that
one of the symptoms of depression of dementia is depression.
So I think it'd be wrong to say that ct
doesn't cause the pressure. It can be one of the symptoms,
(14:02):
you know, the poor memory, the lack of impulse control
and things like that. So it's you know, which is
the chicken and which is the egg. I understand that
you know, some players have had psychiatric honests which predate
their head knock exposure, and Billy may have been in
the situation there. There may be other conflicting or contributing
(14:24):
things going on here, but once again I don't have
the full information, and on what I'm reporting is what
I've read in the media, rather than any direct treatment
of Billy items because I haven't treated him at all.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
The other very high profile player, higher than Billy, of course,
was Carl Hayman, whose book head On is out. The
subtitle is Rugby Dementia and the Hidden Cost of Success
and John and I've read it's tragic. In a word,
it's tragic. Now, I'm not saying it's Rugby knock, so
just the whole of this guy's life is so sad
(14:58):
at the end, but there is a real are likely
to comment on. On page two five three, he says,
it's only when you step away with some distance that
you start to understand the warning signs that were missed,
the stabbing headaches, the constant pain, the frequent disorientation, the
spells of deja vus, the increased reliance on alcohol for sleep,
(15:23):
the mood swings. But at the time you convinced yourself
that this was part and parcel of pro rugby. If
I'm feeling like this, others must be two, right, That's
the question he asks with it. It's an interesting.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Comment, absolutely, and I mean obviously I had some involvement
with Carl Hayman and a Zeally all Black days, and
I had no involvement subsequently. I mean I'd have to
sort of look at his medical records to know the
number of head injuries that he suffered from and what happened.
I meant, certainly we don't believe there are current head
(15:58):
injuries that a good thing for your brain. Now, as
he mentioned, he had a high alcohol intake as well.
That's not a good combination of things to have. He
may have had other medical factors going on. But all
I can say, Maria is that rugby and rugby league
and the contact sports are trying to make the game
as so as safe as possible. And I think it's
(16:21):
obviously we've got to look back and think we could
have done things better, but I think we've got to
now treat people and the best we can. Whether it's
the elite level like Carl Hayman and Billy Goiden, or
is it you know, the Rossmany first a Dean or
the tachogrammar first the dean players or the school board players.
So we've got to try and make rules which make
the game as safe as we possibly can based on
(16:43):
the medical information we have now. When I was first
involved with the all Ox over thirty years ago, you know,
we had the mandatory three weeks stand down, and we
thought we're doing a good job based on the medical information.
But we've got a lot more tools now. We know
a lot more about hidden and I think we're making
you know, much better medical decisions and giving much better advice.
(17:05):
So I think we've got to be careful about critiquing
people from you know, twenty years ago, how they managed
head injury there or thirty years ago. It's important to
recognize that. But I think going forward, we've got to
think what is the best advice we can give to
young players. And I mean I think rugby and rugby
league do a reasonably good job. Now, I mean I
(17:27):
have reservation about the martial arts, boxing and things like that.
You know, is it a good idea to let these
sports go ahead? You know, I mean rugby and rugby
league get criticized a lot, but other sports we're hitting
the head as part of the game you have to
ask yourself.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Agreed, And in doing the research for this, that kept
on coming back to me all the time that most
of the injuries that take place in rugby and rugby league,
particularly now with the television playing such a prominent role, accidental.
But the thoughts that you've just mentioned, it's deliberate to
belt somebody's head to pieces.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Thataps absolutely, And I think the thing we've got to
remember in rugby that when you and I played rugby,
there weren't the number of collisions that we have nowadays.
You know that, you know, if you were running the
ball up my tackle you went to the ground, you
may have a few rock marks and flicked it on you,
but you most probably didn't get your head hit that often.
Whereas now if you're a tight forward and rugby you
(18:26):
may be making ten to fifteen tackles, you're taking the
ball up ten times, you've got the other collisions as well.
So it's the number of collisions per game has increased,
so the risk of head injury accidentally as it is,
has increased.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
John why I said the Carl Hayman book is tragic,
and there's one piece that will stay with me always
and I'll just read it to you. He's talking about
his role. It too long. And in French rugby, if
I could stand up, I played and I did that
week after week for ten months of the year, for
five years straight. I was in effect a useful slab
(19:05):
of meat.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Yeah, I mean, I've had some reservations about players playing
in some of these other competitions where they aren't very
well regulated. And certainly if you're buying a high profile
player like Carl Hayman, the owner or owners will try
and get their money's worth out of them, and you
know he will be a piece of meat to some people.
(19:28):
I think in New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, the UK,
I think player welfare has looked after better. I have
some concerns in other countries. In France, every one of
them is that you know how players are looked after,
and certainly players typically go there for the money and
that's the price they're paying at times, no question about it.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Gold Sport presents Murray Digger's sporting lives with Callaway, the
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Speaker 2 (20:01):
Now let's take our attention off the elite and look
at your rosmondy and your take a kurudogram of person
fiftys and midget rugby and this kind of thing that
most of us have been involved in over the year,
over the years, standing on the sideline, our kids playing
out there. So some pretty simple questions about that, because
(20:22):
I've heard some rubbish being talked like this one. Does
a head gear give the weirir of protection from concussion?
Speaker 3 (20:29):
No, it doesn't, it exactly at all.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
But it stops cuts, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
It stops cuts and you won't have ears like yours
married by afterwards, you know. I say your good looks
will be maintained by wearing head gear. It's a fallacy
that the headgear is useful prefending head injury. It was
interesting for a while the Japanese rugby Union mandated for
all junior players, you know, and that was a ludicrous situation.
(20:54):
And there was some research that giving children and adults
headgear may actually give them a feeling of being vulnerable
and they actually may hit each other harder, so and
wearing headgear could make it worse. So no, no headgear.
If you want to wear it, fine, I mean Stephen
Larkin wore it. Because he had a cut on his forehead,
(21:14):
you know, which opened up all the time, so he
was wearing it for the right reason, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Shouldn't we be going and looking at helmets like they
use in American football?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Well, if we did, there'd be a lot of damage
to people who get hit by the helmet, you know.
So by nature of the game, we have minimal panning
in rugby and rugby league. But if you have wearing
a motorcycle helmet and ran into another player, you could
do quite a bit of damage. So you may stop
the player getting a head injury, but the other guy
(21:48):
may have a broken jaw or something like that. So no,
I don't think it's feasible. In the past, we've looked at,
you know, having shoulder pads for rugby and things like that,
and I was part of the IRB medical a couple
of times. Are we legislated on the depth and the
extent of shoulder pairs. It was a lot of nonsense really,
you know, I mean, shoulder pads don't help, they don't
(22:10):
prevent injury, and they may actually promote injury and people
who are not wearing.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Them, John, what are the most prevalent injuries in rugby
and league.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
In rugby right across kids, the whole works. The knee well,
I mean, if we get to get away from the
minor strains and bruises and things like that, the major
injuries are neck, sorry, a knee, ankle, shoulder, you know
the areas. If you want to be a rugby doctor,
(22:45):
you need to have a good knowledge of those areas there. Obviously,
head injury is something that needs to happen. Fortunately now
with the changes in rugby, neck injuries are touch wood
are decreasing. I mean, certainly a lot of X props
almost probably have degenerative changes in their cervical spine post career.
But you know, fortunately we're not seeing the cervical spine
(23:07):
fractures in the last few years because of the rule
changes at scrummaging and things like that. But knee injuries
the common, and we know that major need injuries interesting
are more common in women players than men, and there's
a lot of number of theories for that. But you know,
the ankle injuries and shoulder for obvious reasons, Shulder instability,
(23:29):
you know, subluxtation, ac joint injuries and things like that.
So they're the ones. You need to know a lot about.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
You run a huge risk if you hit a neck injury.
I don't know how you used to feel, but I
really felt uncomfortable watching Sam came play rugby.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Yeah, well, I mean I think I told you I
had a son, still have a son, Richard, who when
he was eighteen or nineteen, broke his neck playing rugby.
The New Zealand Colt selectors try to convert him from
a loose four to a prop and he was going
well until he was marked Mike Noble, who was in
a blues player. And you know, Richard got it wrong
(24:08):
and engaged the scrumb and broke his neck. And fortunately,
you know, there was no long term consequency. He had
it surgically repaired, and as a parent, I was very
keen and I'm not playing a game, but he did
and had a long, long career with no sequeally from that.
But you're right, I was very apprehensive watching him players
(24:31):
first came back after surgery.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
You could I couldn't get my eyes off him because
his shoulder seemed to be hunched, and I'm thinking, I
don't want to see your tragedy out here.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
No, No, I mean Sam Kane's a fine player, and
you know obviously what's happened and recently losing the order
at captaincy. But yeah, I mean he's been a very
brave player, very brave, and it should be given more
credit than he has been.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
The worst injury you ever dealt with go to suggest one.
I'm not even sure if you were on the sideline,
but Michael Jones for the worst thing I've ever seen.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I was about ten ft away when it happened, and
the noise was immense. I thought he had broken his leg.
And it was interesting to my wife, Lady was at
the game in the greens then she could hear a
noise as well, and it was very obvious when we
examined him, when I examined him that you know, he'd
done a major legamental disruption of terrible you know, basically
(25:30):
discaded the knee. He was very fortunate that we had,
you know, one of the best knee surgeons in the world,
and I think someone you may know, Barry Titchenens, and
he resurrected his knee and Michael's career went on. But
it was a disaster's injury and he made a remarkable recovery.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, it was extraordinary. I recall coming in straight up.
You know, he went off Eden pack. It's just come
back to me and you were in the room and
I'll tell you who was there with you as you
have a mate and David said to me, get the
hell out of here, Dix. I looked at it. I
could hardly, hardly, hardly stand the thought that there was
(26:13):
the ice man with an injury as bad as that,
for sure.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Exactly, it's sort of I think as phrase, then you
have to come into doctor mode during a game. You know,
he's a fine player and you've got to think, you know,
you have responsible as a team doctor to remember you're
dealing with a patient, not just the most famously spot
in the world, and you know, you can think part
of my job is looking after him as best I
possibly can.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Other injuries that stand out that you that you're pleased
with the way that they came through.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
I mean, certainly you know there was John Kerwin had
a ruptured R. Kelly's tendon on one of my first tours.
We we operated on that and interestingly I certain happened
to Newport and Wales and we got an operator on
that night and the surgeon wanted someone to assist at
the operation, so I was the team doctor and the
surgical assistant during his surgery as well. So that was
(27:07):
quite interesting Jonah. You know, I had a lot of
dealings with Jonah as well. One of the most interesting
ones when he broke his cheekbone in France and it
was totally mismanaged by the French. We went from hospital
to hospital, then more declaring he hadn't broken his checkbone.
Eventually we got to see the professor of plastic surgery
(27:29):
in Paris who saw us a cigarette in one hand
and talking to us, you know, and he confirmed what
I already known, that he had a cheekbone fracture and
he needed surgery. And Jonah's response, I'm not having that
preck operator and me I'd rather go home and get
it done because he had been given the run round.
He knew he had broken and I knew he had
(27:49):
broken it, and then to see this French surgerony may
be very eminent, but you know, with a cigarette in
one hand and talking to us, that was enough for Jonah.
We put him on a plane and he had surgery
when he got back to New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
He's the most famous rugby player, There's no question about it,
and you had a lot to do with them, and
to some extent the other role of as a doctor.
It was a bit of psychology and the way you
dealt with.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Him John, Yeah, it was. I mean, he turned from
a patient to a good friend. And I got criticized
at time to being having too close a relationship with him,
but it happened for a number of reasons. For a
couple of years, we kept his kidney issue secret, you know,
we managed him. I was fortunate to manage him with
a professor Ian Simpson, who was a person I went
(28:36):
through medical school with or taught me at medical school.
We'd have Clandensteine meetings with that. I'd run his treatment
through my surgery. After hours, I'd pick up his drugs
from an ex all Blick. You'd know. Don mckaye Jonah
didn't want to go through the public system, and so
Jonah paid for the expensive medications. He had felt like
(29:00):
a drug dealer at times, you know, taking the money
from Jonah to Don MacKaye to buy the medications. He
didn't want them through the public system. And I suppose
in a way I was a drug dealer, but you know,
I had a long relationship with Jonah. He was a
very good person. My children grew up with him because
he's around our house so much. And at times I
(29:25):
think the New Zealand public didn't realize how important he
was worldwide, you know. And at times Jonah got criticized
for the odd poor game, but generally there was a
medical reason for it, which he wouldn't let me explain
to the public. So he didn't want to make any excuses.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
We'll just stick with him for a minute. You, as
opposed to myself, should tell how popular he was in
South Africa. He was mobbed after games, and I don't
think New Zealanders know that.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Oh no, he was huge, and not just South Africa.
I remember going through the state with him and he
was huge there. And you think rugby is not very
big in America, but Jonah was huge, And certainly I
remember following his transplant, he and I the when he
was well, John Kerwin and the Italian Reggul arrange for
(30:17):
Jonah to fly over to Italy and they wanted to
give him a presentation and we went to the All
Blacks were playing Italy at that game, and Jonah was
in the crowd. Jonah got more attention than the whole
all Black team. And that was an all black team
with Conrad Smith and Dan Carter and Richie mccare. But
there's only one person the Italians wanted to see and
that was Jonah. And it was quite embarrassing really because
(30:40):
you know, the all black team got stubbed by an
ex all black really through no fault of his own.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
And the same thing happened to me in France with him.
I organized to do a profile with him on television,
one of those Deacer profiles. Yeah, and we were to
meet him at a hotel and I said to Sharon
was with me and a photographer and I said to Sharon, Oh,
I don't feel happy until we get this in the can.
I don't think it's going to happen. I don't know
where they're going to put us. When we arrived, he
(31:07):
had a whole floor that the hotel had given him
the choice of and they could use it. The guy
was an absolutely the complete celebrity outside of New.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Zealand, absolutely, but a lot of people forget the good
work he did and one of the jobs in all blacks,
you know, sometimes get visit we're in a town, we
take some all blacks to hospitals and see the kids
in the cancer wards or various things like that, which
can be quite distressing at times to the players. And
Jonah would go along to these things and I'd say
(31:40):
to Jonah, look, we're here for half an hour, I'll
be the bad guy. And after half an hour, I'll
drag you out of the hospital or wherever we're meeting
these kids. And of course the in never will happened.
Two hours later, he'd still be there and I'll be saying, Jonah,
you've got to go now, you've got a meeting. I'll
be the bad guy. But he was good, and one
particular episode, he my wife was a cronary care nurse
(32:02):
and they had a young tongue and kid in the hospital.
They had a basically fatal heart disease, and his favorite
player was Jona. And Jonah came around one day and
I mentioned it to him, and he said, let's go
and see him now. So we upsticks at about eight
o'clock at night, went and saw this kid at Currentry
Care at Norshaw Hospital. Jonah spent a couple of hours
(32:23):
with him, and unfortunately the kid died about three or
four days later, but he'd had this time with Johan
oh Lomer and Jonah did a lot of amazing things
which people wouldn't have been away from.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Gold Sport Presents Murray Digger's sporting lives with Callaway, the
leading manufacturer of premium golf clubs, balls and accessories worldwide.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
John most of the lessons we learn, we learned them
when we're young. What should parents be telling their kids
to help them avoid injuries?
Speaker 3 (33:04):
That's an interesting thing. I think there's a number of
things there that parents in sport can be very difficult,
as you know, and I think parents have got to
encourage their children to play a whole range of sports.
And you and I know that, Okay, at seven years
this kid may look as a very good rugby player,
but at seventeen he may have passed it. So I
(33:25):
think what I would encourage for injury prevention is that
all kids play a variety of sports. There are some
medical conditions which are unique to developing children. The os
good slatters, the things like that, service disease and things
like that. So parents have got to be aware that
children are not small adults. They have their own medical issues.
(33:49):
And injury. I think that they've got to learn the
skills of the game. So at ten, they need to
know how to pass, how to tackle properly, and things
like that. They're more important than the next game by
playing a certain brand of rugby. And it certainly if
I was a parent or a coach and whatever sport,
is that teaching the skills of the game rather than
(34:11):
encouraging these young players just to win the game. And
I think if you can tackle properly and fall properly
and do all those sort of things you're into, risk
goes down dramatically. And I think when you are to
deal with it appropriately, that you know, not pushing the
kid back because it's the role of mills or something
very important. First of team game this week, the children's
(34:32):
health is far more important than the parents' ego.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
The head not one still concerns me because sometimes you're
not sure how bad it is and whether you should
get your son or daughter to a hospital. So how
do you assess that if you have any doubts, should
you get professional help?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
I think you've answered that question your south Murray that
if you're uncertain, we are uncertain. And I think it's
one thing that I'd rather over diagnose concussion and say
to you, you working cast, you know you've got to
have this period of time off. Okay, I might have
got it wrong, but I want to get it wrong
that way rather than the other way. And one of
the worries in the community game and it's all very
(35:13):
well me talking about high level sport where we have
a lot of facilities available to us. If we don't
make the diagnosis of concussion, we never treat it properly
because it doesn't happen. And so obviously in rugby has
the blue card with the refrequency and players from the field,
which I think is a good, good innovation, but I
think there has to be an awareness and education of
(35:33):
coaches and everyone involved with the sport that if they're concerned,
get some advice, certainly medically. For me, looking after players
head injury is the hardest thing. And believe me, it's
hard in the middle of an n ERL game or
a hard of a test match to say is it
safe for the Dan Carter or Richie mccare or Sean
(35:54):
Johnson to stay on? You know, we need to go
through an assessment process and we have all the tools
and you know we should over diagnose that. Of course,
if we get it wrong, the coaches don't thank you
for it. You know, they are taking the best player
off the field necessarily, but certainly at junior level, non
elite sport over diagnosed. What I'm saying that if you're concerned,
(36:15):
we're use your hunch and take the child off the
or the player off the field.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
We haven't touched on something that I think has changed dramatically.
The culture that I came through was a boozy culture
playing rugby, and I was boozy very ye. Now, some
years ago I did a profile with Richie McCaw and
after it was over, we went to the Spencer on
(36:41):
Byron Hotel, which was one of the major sponsors of it,
sat down. There were four of us there, three little
current rugby players and myself and at the end I
went up to fix up the bill and there wasn't
one beer on it and we'd been there for two hours.
And I'm told that, particularly in the All Blacks, that
boozy culture that was so prevalent at one stage has
(37:05):
just about disappeared. What are your thoughts on alcohol and sport.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
I think it's true. I mean in the Warriors. There's
no alcohol in the change room most of the game.
Most games, the players don't drink afterwards, you know that
often in rugby, and I say North Harbor of my
recent experience and the All Blacks, alcohol is not part
of the changing room. And I can remember my early
days of All Black rugby, the only hydration fluid in
(37:34):
the changing room was beer, you know. I mean, and
I remember those days. The coaches couldn't go on at halftime,
the players stayed out, and it was the joke that
we'd have you know, beer in the changing room and
orange juice from Michael Jones, you know, and that was it,
and players hydrated. We weren't even hydrating the players on
the field at that stage. So but nowadays, you know,
(37:54):
we do, you know, if players are going to have
a few beers and we want to make sure they're hydrated,
they're fed in the changing room. So there's there's more muffins, bananas, food,
soft drinks in the changing room after a game than alcohol.
And I mean, there's nothing wrong with a couple of
beers after a game when the players, you know, well fed,
(38:14):
well hydrated. But the booze culture at the elite level
has certainly gone away, and players, you know, when they
finish the game, they're thinking about getting ready for the
next one, and you know alcohol is not part of it.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Really, what changes do you want to see? You know,
you mentioned before what happened in the nineteen eighties and
stuff like that, and how it's changed. It's changed dramatically.
Put your clinking cap on and tell me what the
ideal situation in twenty forty would be.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Okay, Well, we'd have better tools to manage head injury,
so we can make the game safer. So if you know,
there'd be a blood test or some sort of way,
I could say, you know, murraydeg got hid in the head,
it's safe to continue, not safe to continue. So it'd
be great to have those sort of tools. I think
some of the rules of the game need to be changed.
(39:06):
I'm just getting worried that reducing the tackle height may
not be the answer to our problems, because what we
may do is that we may see more head injuries
in the tackle rather than the person being tackled you,
because if I'm having to tackle you around your knees
or hip, I may get hit there. So we've got
to be very careful about unintended consequences of rule changes.
(39:30):
I mean, as as a Ruby follower, I'd like to
be able to see us collapse the rolling mall. And
you know, perhaps you know these line out drives, you
know from a penalty. You know, to me, it's almost
to try every time if you get it right, And
is that that break me the way we want to
see it? And I agree with comments that Wayne Smith
has popularized about that it's it's legalized obstruction, really, isn't it.
(39:51):
You know? So so from a medical point of view,
point of view, it's player education, better ways of assessing
injuries to make the game safer. I don't know if
we need to make many other rules to make me safer.
There was all that controversy years ago with when HIV
was first on the scene that you know, god, players
(40:13):
with HIV shouldn't be playing. Well, we know that's that's
categorically wrong. That it's quite safe that someone with HIV
positive player contact sport. The risk of transmission is very,
very low. So we've got a sort of base any
rule changes on what are the consequence any medical decisions
based on science rather than you know, what happened last
(40:35):
week of playing you know, suffered a catastrophic injury. You know,
we had the tragic case of the player in South
Auckland in the under eighty fives. He died from a hyndury,
and from what I can understand, that's just very very
bad bad luck. I mean, playing a contact sport is
a risk of injury, you know, there's no doubt about that.
But they're so as you know, riding a mountain bike, rollerblading,
(40:58):
you know, all those sorts of things. There's a risk
of injury in life, and we've got to be a
bit careful. We don't want to make the change that
you made from our school days where ball, rush and
those things were outlined and outlawed by well meaning people.
And you know there's that move that you know, should
tackling be outlawed till fourteen and fifteen? And I think no.
(41:19):
We should be teaching kids of eight, nine, ten how
to tackle properly. Otherwise when they're fourteen and fifteen and
suddenly come along tackle rugby, they mostly would injure themselves
because they don't know how to do it.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
John get a plug in for the New Zealand Rugby Foundation,
which you touched on earlier what's it about and you
know what is it achieved.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
The Rugby Foundation is an organization voluntary organization. Is the
charity which looks after the severely disabled rugby player. So
you know, the people who are misfortunate, are unfortunate enough
to have head injuries or significant neck injuries and we
will assist them financially in any other way we can.
So if someone does, you know, break neck and they
(42:00):
need assistance financially for the rest of their life, we
will help them out in that way. There the members
of the board, you know, we've got Graham Murray, Ali Williams,
you know, Andy Leslie, Andy Dalton and people are that
even does it in a voluntary way. It's to assist,
you know, the welfare of players who get severely injured.
(42:22):
We get money from from New Zealand Rugby. We also
get it from fundraising, fund rating, luncheons and things like
that and a nation. So it's a very good organization.
One of the initiatives done recently is trying to give
defibrillators to every rugby club in New Zealand. And you
know we're trying to be proactive and think let's not
just be the eminence of the bottom of the cliff
(42:42):
and can we prevent people dying and maybe unrelated to rugby,
and we had a case recently in Silverdale where a
player collapsed with a heart attack. He was defibrillated by
one of the defibrillators used by us. Last year we
at the Coastal Rugby Club, which was the Barretts Home
Rugby Club, a young player had a collapse at training.
(43:03):
He was resuscinated by the defibrillator we're given, so we're
trying to be proactive. We're also funding injury research to
make the game safer. So we're funding people like Ken
Quarry who's an injury researcher and he's on a rugby
looking at aspects of the game to make it safer.
Where in cahoots you know, with the Brain Bank at
(43:24):
Auckland University and funding some of their research. So there's
a funding model, a research model and a prevention thing.
It's a great organization.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
I love the stories about Jonah. As you look back
on your career, what are the other highlights mean? And
are there any other stories?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
There's lots of stories, so I can't mentionure. I think
I look back and think that you know, I have
had the opportunity to be involved with some very charismatic people,
you know, the Michael jones as, the Richie mccau's, the
Ruben Wikis, the Stephen Prices and people like and I've
learnt a lot from them. I've learnt, you know, the
(44:05):
what they're like as people. You know, you have a
You're very lucky to have an interest in their life.
I still see a lot of ex all blacks now,
you know, I'm the Walt Little's, the Frank Bunters and
people like that. So to me, I've been fortunate enough
to be involved with the people at their prime. I'm
also now trying to help them in their subprime so
(44:28):
to speak, as they are having the consequences of a
rugby career and having knee joint replacements and replacements. I
was fortunate to have Gary Gary Whitten's my brother in law,
so a good relationship with him and Alan Witton. I
still see a lot of Sean Fitzpatrick, who's one of
the rugby hard men. I bump into de Buck. He
and I had grandchildren playing rugby last week into Silvera,
(44:51):
so it's great. So it's given me medically. I've thoroughly
enjoyed it, but socially it's been been fantastic.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Well, we're indebted to you because you have made a
huge contribution to rugby and I'm sure people listening to
this today would have got a lot out of it.
The key aspect is play sport and enjoy it and
take the benefits from it.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
Absolutely. You know, playing sporters marves to your general health,
your long term health and the friends that you know,
I personally have made it through rugby by playing at
a sub elleital level are friends for life and the
benefits outweigh the negatives.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
That's John Mayhoo with those thoughts all Blacks and warriors,
doctor and somebody who is a friend of so many people.
And that was another episode of Murray Deeca's Sporting Lives,
brought to you by Callaway. You enjoyed this episode, please
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
(45:54):
We'll be back next month with a focus on the Olympics.
On Murray Deeker's Sporting Lives
Gold Sport presents Murray Deeker's Sporting Lives with Callaway, the
leading manufacturer of premium golf clubs, balls and accessories worldwide.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Hi Murray Deeker here, Welcome to season two of my podcast,
Murray Deeker's Sporting Lives. During my career, I spent over
forty years interviewing the biggest names in sport and I'm
thrilled to be back bringing you this podcast talking to
sporting legends and giving you a look into their world
(00:33):
to hear their memories, their stories and some opinion too. Now,
it's not always the people on the field or the
court who are vital to a team performance. There are
those that support behind the scenes to ensure the high
performance of our athletes. If you've watched the All Blacks
(00:54):
or the Warriors in recent years, you would have seen
them on the sideline. The doc, yes, doctor John Mayhew.
He's been part of the fabric of New Zealand rugby
and league and he was recognized for his work as
a sports doctor by being awarded the Officer of the
New Zealand Order of Merit.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
He joins us Murray Dicker's Sporting Lives.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
John, what is the role of a sports doctor to
a team.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
Hello Murray. Yes, it's an interesting question. That is that
it's sort of evolved over time, and I see my
role as a team doctor to provide medical services to
the team, to ensure player welfare, and to assist the
coach and selection of players on medical grounds and things
like that. I think the role has moved on that
(01:47):
you're responsible for the care of players after their careers
as well, and I think you know, in head andary
space and things like that, you've got to give sage
advice to players about whether they should continue playing their
sport or are any long term consequences of their sport.
So I think it's an advisory role in parts of
(02:07):
my career. I've done other roles with teams. You've helped
out at training, You've helped you know, hold tackle bags
and do other bits and pieces. But the important thing
is to give medical advice. And I think at times
you need to stand back, you know, from the team
selection and think my job is to look after the
medical welfare and provide medical support to the players and
(02:28):
not just be a supporter of the players.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
That's not easy to do, John, is it? Because occasionally
there will be a player that a coach is desperate
to get on the field and you know he shouldn't be.
Do they listen to you?
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I think predominantly they do, And certainly I've been fortunate
to work with some very strong characters, you know, Alex Wiley,
Lorrie Maynes, John Hart, and they certainly at times pushed
me to the limit to say, is it's safe for
these players to play? And you know, we've had a
couple of medical skirmishes at times, But I think, especially nowadays,
I think the coaching staff are very aware of the
(03:06):
risks of playing sport and the medical risks. But you know,
through my career there's been a few incidents where you know,
it's been touch and go whether a player should be
playing with a head injury or with other injuries. And
to say we've had robust discussions at times as perhaps
an understatement.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
Yeah, I could imagine the names that you just mentioned then,
because they do want to get the best players on
the field, and you know, we'll deal with a concussion
one in a moment or two. How did the job
differ from the All Blacks to the Warriors, from union
to league?
Speaker 3 (03:41):
And in some ways it was very very similar and
in other ways it was very very different. When I
went into the Warriors from a large All Black involvement
of fifteen years, rugby league was a bit behind the
eight ball and sort of medical management. There still was
that sort of bravado about you know, a player getting
(04:01):
knocked out, getting up and playing on and you know
he's a very tough individual. We had the issue with,
you know, shoulder charge and things like that. However with time,
you know that's changed rugby league and certainly the NRL
have come to the party. They put good structures in place.
The shoulder charge, which I was part of the group
that we had helped outlaw that we were told at
(04:23):
the time by the prominent ex players that it would
ruin the game. I don't think anyone's noticed it's gone
now and you know it certainly a dangerous event, you know,
to the tackler and to the person being tackled. So
I think it means the rugby league was a bit
behind the times the medical welfare of its players, but
(04:44):
I think it's moved up in some ways. Rugby league
was a bit easy looking after the Warriors and the
All Blacks, because you had one group of players for
forty five weeks of the year basically where the All Blacks.
Part of my role was monitoring them from a distance.
Sleeper rugby. You know, the coaches will be wanting to
be updates on player welfare and things like that, so
(05:06):
they could pick these squads for you know, the various
competitions that the All Blacks playing. So but you know,
medically the players are easy to look after, and certainly
generally the players are much more easy to look after
sometimes in the coaching staff.
Speaker 2 (05:22):
One of the fascinations to me, and it's not really
a medical thing, it's a psychological thing, is that Rugby
for years and years used to put the players into
the changing room and scream and yell at them the
coach did before the game. And I was told that
way way back in time when that was happening to
you and I, when we were playing in rugby, the
league didn't do that. Guys came in, they'd have a
(05:44):
yearn and flick the switch and they'd go out.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Yeah, I mean that was the first thing I noticed
when I went to the Warriors the first game. There
was music in the changing rooms up till about thirty
minutes before the game. Everyone was relaxed, and then they
switched on. And I think the ranting and raving of
the coaches as a thing of the past. And you know,
I can think of playing against people like John Hart
when he's a player and player coach, and he was
(06:08):
a bit of a renter in those days. With due
respect to John, but when he was an All Black coach,
he was very sort of mild mannered, quiet, And I
think a lot of a team talk has now done
at the team hotel or well before the game, and
there's not much that can be said in the changing room.
You know, beforehand, I've had the fortunately in the changing
room with people like Craig Bellamy and Dayne Bennett and
(06:31):
things like that. And you know, despite the public personas,
they're not really renters in the changing room. It's getting
information across and telling people tactical stuff rather than abusing
their heritage, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Did the job itself differ at all from one to
the other, from the All Blacks to the Warriors.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
It was in some ways a bit easier with the
Warriors because I had, as I mentioned, I had the
same group of players for a prolonged period of time.
We had a home base, we okay. We were traveling
to Australia every second week for the away games, but
you got into a routine of doing that. The home
games were easy to deal with. It wasn't so much
time away from family and things like that, so it
(07:15):
was easier in that sense, where in my All Black
days the first couple of few years the tours were
six to eight to nine weeks away permanently at the time,
and having had a young family at that time, it
was difficult at times. And of course the first few
years of quite a few number of years with the
All Blacks Wizard in a voluntary position, we got a
(07:35):
nominal amount of money, you know, as did the players,
so it was financially quite hard. We're in later days
in professional Aragua professional rugby league. I was getting paid
for my time, so it was easier in that sense.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
John, Let's get to the nuts and bolts of the
whole issue and the thing that people are probably waiting
to hear your expert opinion on head knocks. How serious
to our health are they?
Speaker 3 (08:01):
Oh? They're very serious. I mean there's no denying that
getting hit on the head repetitively is not good for
your brain, and I think part of the changes have
happened in rugby and rugby league is monitoring players in
two ways. One is that when they get the acute injury,
we make sure we take the player from the field,
manage them appropriately with the appropriate tests and neuropsychometric testing
(08:22):
and things like that, and ensure that when they return
to play, it's safe to return to play. I think
we also have to be aware of players that have
gone beforehand, what are the long term consequences of perhaps
less than ideal management of head injury. But I think
we have to take it into perspective that just because
you're an ex rugby league or an X rugby player
(08:42):
who in later life develops, unfortunately a dementia like illness,
it may not be related to your sporting involvement. So
I think there's a number of studies coming out and
usual Rugby are doing a very good one of X players.
You know, they're looking at the former first class players,
and the incidence of neurodegenitive disorders is not much higher
(09:04):
than the general population. And what I mean by neurodegenitive
is dementia, Parkinson's and things like that. So we've got
to be careful about overegging the situation. But also we've
got to manage players now, and I think we're doing
it much much better. So I think the doctors and
medical staff and coaching staff are aware of that, the
players are aware of it, and I think if head
(09:25):
injury is managed correctly, you know, there should be no
long term consequences. However, part of that of the medical
role is to make sure that people have recovered appropriately
and it's safe to return to the field.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Now, there are head knocks and head knocks, so how
do you determine the severity of a knock.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
I think you've raised a good question there, and if
I knew the one hundred percent answer, I'd be a
rich man. We've got a number of tests now that
we do screening tests for players before the season. I
have sidelined imaging so we can look at the you
know what's happened on the video. We have the mouthguard
which tells us, you know, the severity of the impact
(10:10):
and things like that. So we've got a number of
tools that we can use. We do neuropsychometric testing pre
season and compare that, you know, their pre season levels
with their post injury levels. So these are all indirect
measures of head injury. What would like it to be
a scan or a blood test or something to say,
(10:30):
you know, Murray Deek has had a head injury, the
scan shows this, and when the scan goes back to normal,
we know he's made a full recovery. We haven't got
those tools now. There are a number of other tests
being researched, you know, saliva testing to look at certain
tests to see if the severity of the injury was
showing up in a particular biomarker. So we're doing it
(10:54):
sort of indirectly, if you know what I mean by
looking at neuropsychometric testing and at the end of the day,
and I had an example with Liam McDonald and Richie
McCay years ago that often the tests would come back
to normal and the players would just not quite feel right,
you know, So there was a lot of subjective about it,
and you'd have to listen to that. You know that
(11:15):
the testing was good to a certain point, but if
the player wasn't confident about playing, or I felt that
he had some residual problems there, we'd listened to that,
and you know, so it's science, but it's it's still
not exact science. But it's the best we've got at
the present time.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Many of us have seen the Sunday program, the Tragic
Story of Billy Guidon. Did you see it and what's
your reaction?
Speaker 3 (11:42):
I did, And obviously I haven't had the privilege of
treating Billy, But what I do know that he had
a post warden which showed changes consistent with CTE. But
they're not diagnosedic of CTE.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Not there because not everybody's medical CTE. What does A stand.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
For chronic traumatic and carephilopathy? So basically it's a change
in the brain. It's only diagnosed at post mortem, so
you have to have examination of the brain, so we
can't make it during life. And unfortunately, these changes, the
pathological changes, can be seen in other conditions as well,
(12:25):
so it's not what we call pathanomonic. It's certainly consistent
with the diagnosis of ct that it can be seen
in other conditions as well, and so that's that's the
problem we have. So certainly, from what I understand from
that program, the brain changes at autopsy were consistent with CTE.
(12:48):
I understand that Billy Geiden had a long history of
psychiatric disorders and was I think bipolar from what I've
heard in the media, and that's the signalificant medical illness.
I think his death may be self inflicted, which may
reflect is as illness. So I don't have enough medical
(13:11):
information there, but I could say. All I could say
is that the changes in the the autopsy were consistent
with that diagnosis. It doesn't mean the diagnosis was CTE.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
See the autopsy showed that the CTE would do some
extent explain his depression and anxiety. Now New Zealand Rugby
refuses to accept that CT leads to depression. Do you
agree with New Zealand Rugby.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
No, I don't know if they quite said that. They
said there are other causes of dementia like illnesses, and
if we look at in the broadest sense, murray that
one of the symptoms of depression of dementia is depression.
So I think it'd be wrong to say that ct
doesn't cause the pressure. It can be one of the symptoms,
(14:02):
you know, the poor memory, the lack of impulse control
and things like that. So it's you know, which is
the chicken and which is the egg. I understand that
you know, some players have had psychiatric honests which predate
their head knock exposure, and Billy may have been in
the situation there. There may be other conflicting or contributing
(14:24):
things going on here, but once again I don't have
the full information, and on what I'm reporting is what
I've read in the media, rather than any direct treatment
of Billy items because I haven't treated him at all.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
The other very high profile player, higher than Billy, of course,
was Carl Hayman, whose book head On is out. The
subtitle is Rugby Dementia and the Hidden Cost of Success
and John and I've read it's tragic. In a word,
it's tragic. Now, I'm not saying it's Rugby knock, so
just the whole of this guy's life is so sad
(14:58):
at the end, but there is a real are likely
to comment on. On page two five three, he says,
it's only when you step away with some distance that
you start to understand the warning signs that were missed,
the stabbing headaches, the constant pain, the frequent disorientation, the
spells of deja vus, the increased reliance on alcohol for sleep,
(15:23):
the mood swings. But at the time you convinced yourself
that this was part and parcel of pro rugby. If
I'm feeling like this, others must be two, right, That's
the question he asks with it. It's an interesting.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
Comment, absolutely, and I mean obviously I had some involvement
with Carl Hayman and a Zeally all Black days, and
I had no involvement subsequently. I mean I'd have to
sort of look at his medical records to know the
number of head injuries that he suffered from and what happened.
I meant, certainly we don't believe there are current head
(15:58):
injuries that a good thing for your brain. Now, as
he mentioned, he had a high alcohol intake as well.
That's not a good combination of things to have. He
may have had other medical factors going on. But all
I can say, Maria is that rugby and rugby league
and the contact sports are trying to make the game
as so as safe as possible. And I think it's
(16:21):
obviously we've got to look back and think we could
have done things better, but I think we've got to
now treat people and the best we can. Whether it's
the elite level like Carl Hayman and Billy Goiden, or
is it you know, the Rossmany first a Dean or
the tachogrammar first the dean players or the school board players.
So we've got to try and make rules which make
the game as safe as we possibly can based on
(16:43):
the medical information we have now. When I was first
involved with the all Ox over thirty years ago, you know,
we had the mandatory three weeks stand down, and we
thought we're doing a good job based on the medical information.
But we've got a lot more tools now. We know
a lot more about hidden and I think we're making
you know, much better medical decisions and giving much better advice.
(17:05):
So I think we've got to be careful about critiquing
people from you know, twenty years ago, how they managed
head injury there or thirty years ago. It's important to
recognize that. But I think going forward, we've got to
think what is the best advice we can give to
young players. And I mean I think rugby and rugby
league do a reasonably good job. Now, I mean I
(17:27):
have reservation about the martial arts, boxing and things like that.
You know, is it a good idea to let these
sports go ahead? You know, I mean rugby and rugby
league get criticized a lot, but other sports we're hitting
the head as part of the game you have to
ask yourself.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Agreed, And in doing the research for this, that kept
on coming back to me all the time that most
of the injuries that take place in rugby and rugby league,
particularly now with the television playing such a prominent role, accidental.
But the thoughts that you've just mentioned, it's deliberate to
belt somebody's head to pieces.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
Thataps absolutely, And I think the thing we've got to
remember in rugby that when you and I played rugby,
there weren't the number of collisions that we have nowadays.
You know that, you know, if you were running the
ball up my tackle you went to the ground, you
may have a few rock marks and flicked it on you,
but you most probably didn't get your head hit that often.
Whereas now if you're a tight forward and rugby you
(18:26):
may be making ten to fifteen tackles, you're taking the
ball up ten times, you've got the other collisions as well.
So it's the number of collisions per game has increased,
so the risk of head injury accidentally as it is,
has increased.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
John why I said the Carl Hayman book is tragic,
and there's one piece that will stay with me always
and I'll just read it to you. He's talking about
his role. It too long. And in French rugby, if
I could stand up, I played and I did that
week after week for ten months of the year, for
five years straight. I was in effect a useful slab
(19:05):
of meat.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
Yeah, I mean, I've had some reservations about players playing
in some of these other competitions where they aren't very
well regulated. And certainly if you're buying a high profile
player like Carl Hayman, the owner or owners will try
and get their money's worth out of them, and you
know he will be a piece of meat to some people.
(19:28):
I think in New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, the UK,
I think player welfare has looked after better. I have
some concerns in other countries. In France, every one of
them is that you know how players are looked after,
and certainly players typically go there for the money and
that's the price they're paying at times, no question about it.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Gold Sport presents Murray Digger's sporting lives with Callaway, the
leading manufacturer of premium golf clubs, balls and accessory worldwide.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
Now let's take our attention off the elite and look
at your rosmondy and your take a kurudogram of person
fiftys and midget rugby and this kind of thing that
most of us have been involved in over the year,
over the years, standing on the sideline, our kids playing
out there. So some pretty simple questions about that, because
(20:22):
I've heard some rubbish being talked like this one. Does
a head gear give the weirir of protection from concussion?
Speaker 3 (20:29):
No, it doesn't, it exactly at all.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
But it stops cuts, doesn't it.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
It stops cuts and you won't have ears like yours
married by afterwards, you know. I say your good looks
will be maintained by wearing head gear. It's a fallacy
that the headgear is useful prefending head injury. It was
interesting for a while the Japanese rugby Union mandated for
all junior players, you know, and that was a ludicrous situation.
(20:54):
And there was some research that giving children and adults
headgear may actually give them a feeling of being vulnerable
and they actually may hit each other harder, so and
wearing headgear could make it worse. So no, no headgear.
If you want to wear it, fine, I mean Stephen
Larkin wore it. Because he had a cut on his forehead,
(21:14):
you know, which opened up all the time, so he
was wearing it for the right reason, so to speak.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Shouldn't we be going and looking at helmets like they
use in American football?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Well, if we did, there'd be a lot of damage
to people who get hit by the helmet, you know.
So by nature of the game, we have minimal panning
in rugby and rugby league. But if you have wearing
a motorcycle helmet and ran into another player, you could
do quite a bit of damage. So you may stop
the player getting a head injury, but the other guy
(21:48):
may have a broken jaw or something like that. So no,
I don't think it's feasible. In the past, we've looked at,
you know, having shoulder pads for rugby and things like that,
and I was part of the IRB medical a couple
of times. Are we legislated on the depth and the
extent of shoulder pairs. It was a lot of nonsense really,
you know, I mean, shoulder pads don't help, they don't
(22:10):
prevent injury, and they may actually promote injury and people
who are not wearing.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Them, John, what are the most prevalent injuries in rugby
and league.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
In rugby right across kids, the whole works. The knee well,
I mean, if we get to get away from the
minor strains and bruises and things like that, the major
injuries are neck, sorry, a knee, ankle, shoulder, you know
the areas. If you want to be a rugby doctor,
(22:45):
you need to have a good knowledge of those areas there. Obviously,
head injury is something that needs to happen. Fortunately now
with the changes in rugby, neck injuries are touch wood
are decreasing. I mean, certainly a lot of X props
almost probably have degenerative changes in their cervical spine post career.
But you know, fortunately we're not seeing the cervical spine
(23:07):
fractures in the last few years because of the rule
changes at scrummaging and things like that. But knee injuries
the common, and we know that major need injuries interesting
are more common in women players than men, and there's
a lot of number of theories for that. But you know,
the ankle injuries and shoulder for obvious reasons, Shulder instability,
(23:29):
you know, subluxtation, ac joint injuries and things like that.
So they're the ones. You need to know a lot about.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
You run a huge risk if you hit a neck injury.
I don't know how you used to feel, but I
really felt uncomfortable watching Sam came play rugby.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Yeah, well, I mean I think I told you I
had a son, still have a son, Richard, who when
he was eighteen or nineteen, broke his neck playing rugby.
The New Zealand Colt selectors try to convert him from
a loose four to a prop and he was going
well until he was marked Mike Noble, who was in
a blues player. And you know, Richard got it wrong
(24:08):
and engaged the scrumb and broke his neck. And fortunately,
you know, there was no long term consequency. He had
it surgically repaired, and as a parent, I was very
keen and I'm not playing a game, but he did
and had a long, long career with no sequeally from that.
But you're right, I was very apprehensive watching him players
(24:31):
first came back after surgery.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
You could I couldn't get my eyes off him because
his shoulder seemed to be hunched, and I'm thinking, I
don't want to see your tragedy out here.
Speaker 3 (24:39):
No, No, I mean Sam Kane's a fine player, and
you know obviously what's happened and recently losing the order
at captaincy. But yeah, I mean he's been a very
brave player, very brave, and it should be given more
credit than he has been.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
The worst injury you ever dealt with go to suggest one.
I'm not even sure if you were on the sideline,
but Michael Jones for the worst thing I've ever seen.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
I was about ten ft away when it happened, and
the noise was immense. I thought he had broken his leg.
And it was interesting to my wife, Lady was at
the game in the greens then she could hear a
noise as well, and it was very obvious when we
examined him, when I examined him that you know, he'd
done a major legamental disruption of terrible you know, basically
(25:30):
discaded the knee. He was very fortunate that we had,
you know, one of the best knee surgeons in the world,
and I think someone you may know, Barry Titchenens, and
he resurrected his knee and Michael's career went on. But
it was a disaster's injury and he made a remarkable recovery.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Yeah, it was extraordinary. I recall coming in straight up.
You know, he went off Eden pack. It's just come
back to me and you were in the room and
I'll tell you who was there with you as you
have a mate and David said to me, get the
hell out of here, Dix. I looked at it. I
could hardly, hardly, hardly stand the thought that there was
(26:13):
the ice man with an injury as bad as that,
for sure.
Speaker 3 (26:17):
Exactly, it's sort of I think as phrase, then you
have to come into doctor mode during a game. You know,
he's a fine player and you've got to think, you know,
you have responsible as a team doctor to remember you're
dealing with a patient, not just the most famously spot
in the world, and you know, you can think part
of my job is looking after him as best I
possibly can.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Other injuries that stand out that you that you're pleased
with the way that they came through.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
I mean, certainly you know there was John Kerwin had
a ruptured R. Kelly's tendon on one of my first tours.
We we operated on that and interestingly I certain happened
to Newport and Wales and we got an operator on
that night and the surgeon wanted someone to assist at
the operation, so I was the team doctor and the
surgical assistant during his surgery as well. So that was
(27:07):
quite interesting Jonah. You know, I had a lot of
dealings with Jonah as well. One of the most interesting
ones when he broke his cheekbone in France and it
was totally mismanaged by the French. We went from hospital
to hospital, then more declaring he hadn't broken his checkbone.
Eventually we got to see the professor of plastic surgery
(27:29):
in Paris who saw us a cigarette in one hand
and talking to us, you know, and he confirmed what
I already known, that he had a cheekbone fracture and
he needed surgery. And Jonah's response, I'm not having that
preck operator and me I'd rather go home and get
it done because he had been given the run round.
He knew he had broken and I knew he had
(27:49):
broken it, and then to see this French surgerony may
be very eminent, but you know, with a cigarette in
one hand and talking to us, that was enough for Jonah.
We put him on a plane and he had surgery
when he got back to New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
He's the most famous rugby player, There's no question about it,
and you had a lot to do with them, and
to some extent the other role of as a doctor.
It was a bit of psychology and the way you
dealt with.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Him John, Yeah, it was. I mean, he turned from
a patient to a good friend. And I got criticized
at time to being having too close a relationship with him,
but it happened for a number of reasons. For a
couple of years, we kept his kidney issue secret, you know,
we managed him. I was fortunate to manage him with
a professor Ian Simpson, who was a person I went
(28:36):
through medical school with or taught me at medical school.
We'd have Clandensteine meetings with that. I'd run his treatment
through my surgery. After hours, I'd pick up his drugs
from an ex all Blick. You'd know. Don mckaye Jonah
didn't want to go through the public system, and so
Jonah paid for the expensive medications. He had felt like
(29:00):
a drug dealer at times, you know, taking the money
from Jonah to Don MacKaye to buy the medications. He
didn't want them through the public system. And I suppose
in a way I was a drug dealer, but you know,
I had a long relationship with Jonah. He was a
very good person. My children grew up with him because
he's around our house so much. And at times I
(29:25):
think the New Zealand public didn't realize how important he
was worldwide, you know. And at times Jonah got criticized
for the odd poor game, but generally there was a
medical reason for it, which he wouldn't let me explain
to the public. So he didn't want to make any excuses.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
We'll just stick with him for a minute. You, as
opposed to myself, should tell how popular he was in
South Africa. He was mobbed after games, and I don't
think New Zealanders know that.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
Oh no, he was huge, and not just South Africa.
I remember going through the state with him and he
was huge there. And you think rugby is not very
big in America, but Jonah was huge, And certainly I
remember following his transplant, he and I the when he
was well, John Kerwin and the Italian Reggul arrange for
(30:17):
Jonah to fly over to Italy and they wanted to
give him a presentation and we went to the All
Blacks were playing Italy at that game, and Jonah was
in the crowd. Jonah got more attention than the whole
all Black team. And that was an all black team
with Conrad Smith and Dan Carter and Richie mccare. But
there's only one person the Italians wanted to see and
that was Jonah. And it was quite embarrassing really because
(30:40):
you know, the all black team got stubbed by an
ex all black really through no fault of his own.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
And the same thing happened to me in France with him.
I organized to do a profile with him on television,
one of those Deacer profiles. Yeah, and we were to
meet him at a hotel and I said to Sharon
was with me and a photographer and I said to Sharon, Oh,
I don't feel happy until we get this in the can.
I don't think it's going to happen. I don't know
where they're going to put us. When we arrived, he
(31:07):
had a whole floor that the hotel had given him
the choice of and they could use it. The guy
was an absolutely the complete celebrity outside of New.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Zealand, absolutely, but a lot of people forget the good
work he did and one of the jobs in all blacks,
you know, sometimes get visit we're in a town, we
take some all blacks to hospitals and see the kids
in the cancer wards or various things like that, which
can be quite distressing at times to the players. And
Jonah would go along to these things and I'd say
(31:40):
to Jonah, look, we're here for half an hour, I'll
be the bad guy. And after half an hour, I'll
drag you out of the hospital or wherever we're meeting
these kids. And of course the in never will happened.
Two hours later, he'd still be there and I'll be saying, Jonah,
you've got to go now, you've got a meeting. I'll
be the bad guy. But he was good, and one
particular episode, he my wife was a cronary care nurse
(32:02):
and they had a young tongue and kid in the hospital.
They had a basically fatal heart disease, and his favorite
player was Jona. And Jonah came around one day and
I mentioned it to him, and he said, let's go
and see him now. So we upsticks at about eight
o'clock at night, went and saw this kid at Currentry
Care at Norshaw Hospital. Jonah spent a couple of hours
(32:23):
with him, and unfortunately the kid died about three or
four days later, but he'd had this time with Johan
oh Lomer and Jonah did a lot of amazing things
which people wouldn't have been away from.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Gold Sport Presents Murray Digger's sporting lives with Callaway, the
leading manufacturer of premium golf clubs, balls and accessories worldwide.
Speaker 2 (32:51):
John most of the lessons we learn, we learned them
when we're young. What should parents be telling their kids
to help them avoid injuries?
Speaker 3 (33:04):
That's an interesting thing. I think there's a number of
things there that parents in sport can be very difficult,
as you know, and I think parents have got to
encourage their children to play a whole range of sports.
And you and I know that, Okay, at seven years
this kid may look as a very good rugby player,
but at seventeen he may have passed it. So I
(33:25):
think what I would encourage for injury prevention is that
all kids play a variety of sports. There are some
medical conditions which are unique to developing children. The os
good slatters, the things like that, service disease and things
like that. So parents have got to be aware that
children are not small adults. They have their own medical issues.
(33:49):
And injury. I think that they've got to learn the
skills of the game. So at ten, they need to
know how to pass, how to tackle properly, and things
like that. They're more important than the next game by
playing a certain brand of rugby. And it certainly if
I was a parent or a coach and whatever sport,
is that teaching the skills of the game rather than
(34:11):
encouraging these young players just to win the game. And
I think if you can tackle properly and fall properly
and do all those sort of things you're into, risk
goes down dramatically. And I think when you are to
deal with it appropriately, that you know, not pushing the
kid back because it's the role of mills or something
very important. First of team game this week, the children's
(34:32):
health is far more important than the parents' ego.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
The head not one still concerns me because sometimes you're
not sure how bad it is and whether you should
get your son or daughter to a hospital. So how
do you assess that if you have any doubts, should
you get professional help?
Speaker 3 (34:50):
I think you've answered that question your south Murray that
if you're uncertain, we are uncertain. And I think it's
one thing that I'd rather over diagnose concussion and say
to you, you working cast, you know you've got to
have this period of time off. Okay, I might have
got it wrong, but I want to get it wrong
that way rather than the other way. And one of
the worries in the community game and it's all very
(35:13):
well me talking about high level sport where we have
a lot of facilities available to us. If we don't
make the diagnosis of concussion, we never treat it properly
because it doesn't happen. And so obviously in rugby has
the blue card with the refrequency and players from the field,
which I think is a good, good innovation, but I
think there has to be an awareness and education of
(35:33):
coaches and everyone involved with the sport that if they're concerned,
get some advice, certainly medically. For me, looking after players
head injury is the hardest thing. And believe me, it's
hard in the middle of an n ERL game or
a hard of a test match to say is it
safe for the Dan Carter or Richie mccare or Sean
(35:54):
Johnson to stay on? You know, we need to go
through an assessment process and we have all the tools
and you know we should over diagnose that. Of course,
if we get it wrong, the coaches don't thank you
for it. You know, they are taking the best player
off the field necessarily, but certainly at junior level, non
elite sport over diagnosed. What I'm saying that if you're concerned,
(36:15):
we're use your hunch and take the child off the
or the player off the field.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
We haven't touched on something that I think has changed dramatically.
The culture that I came through was a boozy culture
playing rugby, and I was boozy very ye. Now, some
years ago I did a profile with Richie McCaw and
after it was over, we went to the Spencer on
(36:41):
Byron Hotel, which was one of the major sponsors of it,
sat down. There were four of us there, three little
current rugby players and myself and at the end I
went up to fix up the bill and there wasn't
one beer on it and we'd been there for two hours.
And I'm told that, particularly in the All Blacks, that
boozy culture that was so prevalent at one stage has
(37:05):
just about disappeared. What are your thoughts on alcohol and sport.
Speaker 3 (37:09):
I think it's true. I mean in the Warriors. There's
no alcohol in the change room most of the game.
Most games, the players don't drink afterwards, you know that
often in rugby, and I say North Harbor of my
recent experience and the All Blacks, alcohol is not part
of the changing room. And I can remember my early
days of All Black rugby, the only hydration fluid in
(37:34):
the changing room was beer, you know. I mean, and
I remember those days. The coaches couldn't go on at halftime,
the players stayed out, and it was the joke that
we'd have you know, beer in the changing room and
orange juice from Michael Jones, you know, and that was it,
and players hydrated. We weren't even hydrating the players on
the field at that stage. So but nowadays, you know,
(37:54):
we do, you know, if players are going to have
a few beers and we want to make sure they're hydrated,
they're fed in the changing room. So there's there's more muffins, bananas, food,
soft drinks in the changing room after a game than alcohol.
And I mean, there's nothing wrong with a couple of
beers after a game when the players, you know, well fed,
(38:14):
well hydrated. But the booze culture at the elite level
has certainly gone away, and players, you know, when they
finish the game, they're thinking about getting ready for the
next one, and you know alcohol is not part of it.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Really, what changes do you want to see? You know,
you mentioned before what happened in the nineteen eighties and
stuff like that, and how it's changed. It's changed dramatically.
Put your clinking cap on and tell me what the
ideal situation in twenty forty would be.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Okay, Well, we'd have better tools to manage head injury,
so we can make the game safer. So if you know,
there'd be a blood test or some sort of way,
I could say, you know, murraydeg got hid in the head,
it's safe to continue, not safe to continue. So it'd
be great to have those sort of tools. I think
some of the rules of the game need to be changed.
(39:06):
I'm just getting worried that reducing the tackle height may
not be the answer to our problems, because what we
may do is that we may see more head injuries
in the tackle rather than the person being tackled you,
because if I'm having to tackle you around your knees
or hip, I may get hit there. So we've got
to be very careful about unintended consequences of rule changes.
(39:30):
I mean, as as a Ruby follower, I'd like to
be able to see us collapse the rolling mall. And
you know, perhaps you know these line out drives, you
know from a penalty. You know, to me, it's almost
to try every time if you get it right, And
is that that break me the way we want to
see it? And I agree with comments that Wayne Smith
has popularized about that it's it's legalized obstruction, really, isn't it.
(39:51):
You know? So so from a medical point of view,
point of view, it's player education, better ways of assessing
injuries to make the game safer. I don't know if
we need to make many other rules to make me safer.
There was all that controversy years ago with when HIV
was first on the scene that you know, god, players
(40:13):
with HIV shouldn't be playing. Well, we know that's that's
categorically wrong. That it's quite safe that someone with HIV
positive player contact sport. The risk of transmission is very,
very low. So we've got a sort of base any
rule changes on what are the consequence any medical decisions
based on science rather than you know, what happened last
(40:35):
week of playing you know, suffered a catastrophic injury. You know,
we had the tragic case of the player in South
Auckland in the under eighty fives. He died from a hyndury,
and from what I can understand, that's just very very
bad bad luck. I mean, playing a contact sport is
a risk of injury, you know, there's no doubt about that.
But they're so as you know, riding a mountain bike, rollerblading,
(40:58):
you know, all those sorts of things. There's a risk
of injury in life, and we've got to be a
bit careful. We don't want to make the change that
you made from our school days where ball, rush and
those things were outlined and outlawed by well meaning people.
And you know there's that move that you know, should
tackling be outlawed till fourteen and fifteen? And I think no.
(41:19):
We should be teaching kids of eight, nine, ten how
to tackle properly. Otherwise when they're fourteen and fifteen and
suddenly come along tackle rugby, they mostly would injure themselves
because they don't know how to do it.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
John get a plug in for the New Zealand Rugby Foundation,
which you touched on earlier what's it about and you
know what is it achieved.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
The Rugby Foundation is an organization voluntary organization. Is the
charity which looks after the severely disabled rugby player. So
you know, the people who are misfortunate, are unfortunate enough
to have head injuries or significant neck injuries and we
will assist them financially in any other way we can.
So if someone does, you know, break neck and they
(42:00):
need assistance financially for the rest of their life, we
will help them out in that way. There the members
of the board, you know, we've got Graham Murray, Ali Williams,
you know, Andy Leslie, Andy Dalton and people are that
even does it in a voluntary way. It's to assist,
you know, the welfare of players who get severely injured.
(42:22):
We get money from from New Zealand Rugby. We also
get it from fundraising, fund rating, luncheons and things like
that and a nation. So it's a very good organization.
One of the initiatives done recently is trying to give
defibrillators to every rugby club in New Zealand. And you
know we're trying to be proactive and think let's not
just be the eminence of the bottom of the cliff
(42:42):
and can we prevent people dying and maybe unrelated to rugby,
and we had a case recently in Silverdale where a
player collapsed with a heart attack. He was defibrillated by
one of the defibrillators used by us. Last year we
at the Coastal Rugby Club, which was the Barretts Home
Rugby Club, a young player had a collapse at training.
(43:03):
He was resuscinated by the defibrillator we're given, so we're
trying to be proactive. We're also funding injury research to
make the game safer. So we're funding people like Ken
Quarry who's an injury researcher and he's on a rugby
looking at aspects of the game to make it safer.
Where in cahoots you know, with the Brain Bank at
(43:24):
Auckland University and funding some of their research. So there's
a funding model, a research model and a prevention thing.
It's a great organization.
Speaker 2 (43:34):
I love the stories about Jonah. As you look back
on your career, what are the other highlights mean? And
are there any other stories?
Speaker 3 (43:44):
There's lots of stories, so I can't mentionure. I think
I look back and think that you know, I have
had the opportunity to be involved with some very charismatic people,
you know, the Michael jones as, the Richie mccau's, the
Ruben Wikis, the Stephen Prices and people like and I've
learnt a lot from them. I've learnt, you know, the
(44:05):
what they're like as people. You know, you have a
You're very lucky to have an interest in their life.
I still see a lot of ex all blacks now,
you know, I'm the Walt Little's, the Frank Bunters and
people like that. So to me, I've been fortunate enough
to be involved with the people at their prime. I'm
also now trying to help them in their subprime so
(44:28):
to speak, as they are having the consequences of a
rugby career and having knee joint replacements and replacements. I
was fortunate to have Gary Gary Whitten's my brother in law,
so a good relationship with him and Alan Witton. I
still see a lot of Sean Fitzpatrick, who's one of
the rugby hard men. I bump into de Buck. He
and I had grandchildren playing rugby last week into Silvera,
(44:51):
so it's great. So it's given me medically. I've thoroughly
enjoyed it, but socially it's been been fantastic.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
Well, we're indebted to you because you have made a
huge contribution to rugby and I'm sure people listening to
this today would have got a lot out of it.
The key aspect is play sport and enjoy it and
take the benefits from it.
Speaker 3 (45:13):
Absolutely. You know, playing sporters marves to your general health,
your long term health and the friends that you know,
I personally have made it through rugby by playing at
a sub elleital level are friends for life and the
benefits outweigh the negatives.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
That's John Mayhoo with those thoughts all Blacks and warriors,
doctor and somebody who is a friend of so many people.
And that was another episode of Murray Deeca's Sporting Lives,
brought to you by Callaway. You enjoyed this episode, please
follow the podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you get your podcasts.
(45:54):
We'll be back next month with a focus on the Olympics.
On Murray Deeker's Sporting Lives
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