September 27, 2024 • 36 mins
The rates of ADHD and dyslexia in prisons is staggering. But these same neurotypes are also more likely to be successful CEO’s and entrepreneurs. So where is the fork in the road? What leads someone down the wrong path?
Sonia Gray talks to Ricky Wakelin, a kind and gentle father-of-two. In the early 2000’s Ricky’s life had spiralled out of control. He was addicted to hard drugs and was eventually incarcerated for armed robbery.
Three years ago, an assessment confirmed that Ricky has ADHD. The diagnosis has helped him understand the reasons behind his lifelong struggle with things like emotional regulation and hypersensitivity.
Sonia also talks to forensic psychologist Anton Ashcroft, who explains why those with ADHD are often drawn to illicit substances. He talks about the value of connection, and why this - rather than tougher consequences - is so important for the rehabilitation of offenders.
Guests:
Ricky Wakelin
Anton Ashcroft - Forensic Psychologist
Resources:
ADHD NZ
Instagram - No Such Thing as Normal Podcast
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Just to note this episode does contain course language.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The night before I was done, I was done with
my life.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
I was like, you know what fucked this.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
That I hadn't slept.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
So I was like, you know what, I'm either going
to fucking drive off a cliff or I'm going to
go and rob a bank.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
And so I robbed the bank.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
This is Ricky twenty years ago. He committed a violent crime,
a crime that for most of us is unthinkable.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
I went into the bank, I discharged the firearm in
the bank.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
In a vertical position.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I demanded a bunch of money. I was so dumb
and so stupid. The Task Forces Task Force Norkan got
on me, predicuickly. I took them for a massive case
around the sortland, trying to obeye them.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Finally came to in my neighborhood.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
I had a lot of armed police officers on me,
ready to blow my head off for.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
A very scary, scary situation. I was taken and I
was thrown in mount Eden for the weekend.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
It was the worst day of my life going into
Mounting because I had not I had not committed any prime.
I worked as a shift you know, globally I was qualified,
you know, So.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
It's just not it's a very out of character.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
When you said you were stupid and it was darne,
and yes it was, but also you were desperate, you
were at the end.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, yeah, I was Gelda.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I'm Sonia Gray and this is no such thing as normal.
Series two, I'm diving into the complex and fascinating world
of neurodiversity. I'm not an expert, but my daughter is
neurodivergent and a few years ago I was diagnosed with ADHD.
In this series, you'll hear from experts and from many
wonderful people who experience the world in a unique way.
(02:14):
We're looking at neurodiversity from the inside. The intersection between
neurodivergence and the criminal justice system is not well understood,
but the actual stats are alarming. Those with ADHD or
(02:36):
dyslexia are approximately five times as likely to be incarcerated
at some point in their lives. But then those same
neurotypes are also more likely to be successful entrepreneurs and CEOs.
So what is it about different cognition that means you
have a better chance of becoming a billionaire and a
better chance of ending up behind bars? Where is the
(02:59):
four in the Road. In this episode, we're looking at
how and why some individuals like Ricky end up on
the wrong path.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
Mm hmmm, all right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Ricky's focus right now is his role as stay at
home dad to us two boys aged one and three,
financially work. It's a job he takes very seriously.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
You know, you're responsible for the building of a brain here.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
You know, our children are our polder man, and I've
definitely been blessed to beautiful sons, and they are part
of my purpose. You know, I've been seeking my purpose
for for a while and I look at them and.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
It's it's pretty amazing. You know.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
I do have to practice that, that gratitude for where
I'm at. Man, I just you know, I've gone from
some fucking really dark shit to being in a position
where I can I can get I can put my
kid on the bike and I can ride him down
to the beach, I can ride him down to the park,
and you.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Know, I can take him for a walk after dinner.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
And then I give thanks to that, you know, because
I've had a lot of hard work in my own
way to do that, and honoring my wife and the
work that she does to have that comfortable space for us.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Ricky is forty two now. He's articulate, a deep thinker,
and passionate about making a difference, which is why he's
agreed to talk openly and honestly about a time in
his life he'd rather forget. The crime was serious, and
Ricky deeply regrets it, but he's keen for people to
know the why, what happened to get him to that place.
(04:54):
He believes a big factor was his undiagnosed ADHD, and
there were clues from an early age.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Very very very intense.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
I remember being hyper aware of, you know, my footprint,
and I would be told, are you sensitive? And if
you focus on this, you're going to give yourself a context.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Well, you know, like at eight, like you don't even know.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
What a fucking complex is.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
And so it's even it's adding fuel to the fire
more now it's like, you know.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
We can't quite figure out how to make things consistent
for you, but we know something's wrong.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Like many with ADHD, Ricky feels the world intensely. Rejection
sensitive dysphoria or RISD is innate to the ADHD experience,
but it's still not officially part of the diagnostic criteria,
so it's not always taken seriously. RSD describes the intense
emotional and physical pain that adhd is feel when they're
(05:59):
rejected or criticized.
Speaker 6 (06:01):
It hurts a lot.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
The response can be shut down withdrawal, anger, and incredibly
low self esteem. When Ricky's psychiatrist explained rejection sensitive dysphoria,
it was a light bulb moment for him.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
Finally something, Finally someone who understands. It's not something that
you can just switch off.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Fuck.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
If I could switch it off, i'd be great, you know.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
But then again, I wouldn't want to be one of
those shocks or outfits that just went along in life
and just didn't give a fuck about anyone's feelings or
what anyone said.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Looking back at your school experience, what was it like?
Do you feel like you fit it in?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
No?
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Not at all.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I never fit in at school.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Never.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
School was not easy for me. I went to numerous
schools inter media. In college, I was very on the outside.
I could never be involved in a.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Group at an environment.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
It was very overwhelming for me.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
So it was easier for me just to remove myself
from anything like that.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I found it very, very hard.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
To focus because this is so self conscious and self aware.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Ricky left school at fifteen, but he sent me a
school reports for the five years before that and reading
them it's pretty bleak. Lax discipline, immature class behavior, a
very disruptive influence on the rest of the class, easily distracted,
must learn to work quietly, must learn to listen to instructions.
(07:38):
Poor results are of his own making, and it goes on.
There's one positive comment, he's very interested in how people think,
feel and act, but apart from that, there's not much encouragement.
ADHD is often called the school to prison pipeline because
for many school is a place you're constantly reminded that
(08:01):
you're different. Research shows that by the time they're twelve,
boys with ADHD have received twenty thousand more critical or
negative messages than those without ADHD. Antoin Ashcroft is a
forensic psychologist. He works worth and studies people who break
the law, and Anton says it's the early years of
(08:22):
school that can be the most damaging.
Speaker 6 (08:27):
That's where our social identity gets set.
Speaker 7 (08:30):
So you can imagine what it would be like if
you're seen in a classroom as being disruptive and interruptive
of others and fighting people to get what you want,
and that label will stick. And then from that label
comes your whole sense. It's called schema. You set up
your schema about yourself, the world, and other people. And
from that young age, if you say well, I am
(08:51):
weird and odd, other people that can't be trusted and
the world is dangerous, that then stays with you for
the pretty much the rest of your life.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
It takes a long time. Is it possible to erase
the tape?
Speaker 6 (09:04):
It is.
Speaker 7 (09:05):
We develop scripts and we can change those scripts, but
we have to go through a process of unlearning the
first scripts and learning some new scripts. And initially, if
you imagine that the old script a script is a
bit like a motorway. You go down that script so
so easily, and your new script is perhaps trying to
(09:25):
go to a narrow thicket with loads of bushes and things,
and you're pushing through and it's really effortful. But over
a period of time, if you maintain that effort with support,
that thicket starts to get brushed down, it gets wider,
and then it starts to compete with the motorway. So
you then have a choice. But it's very rare for
that script to just suddenly flip.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Enton's helped to flip some of the toughest scripts. He
worked as a forensic psychologist in prisons for many years,
and his approach was to look beyond the offenses and
find the positive quality of those behind bars.
Speaker 7 (10:02):
Approximately eighty percent of the people that I was working
with in prison, I would say were good people. They
were people who had had a tough life or a
tougher environment, or a history of trauma or undiagnosed neurodiversity
of some sort. Really didn't know how to manage that
because it got overwhelmed and in prison approximately fifty percent,
(10:25):
but the research varies anywhere from like thirty up to
seventy five. Eighty percent would have an undiagnosed or die
even diagnosed ADHD condition.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Anon says the rates of dyslexia are very high too,
but of course having a cognitive difference is not a
prerequisite for prison. Most people with ADHD or dyslexia never
intercept with the criminal justice system. In fact, we know
that these types of brains are the innovators, the change makers.
So where is the fork in the road, What might
(10:56):
send someone down the wrong path. I'm imagining that there
are other layers. So if there's another layer of adverse childhood,
of ments or trauma, you're upping the likelihood immensely. Like
anecdotally do you find there's a mix of the two.
Speaker 7 (11:13):
That always and the risk factors are things like a
history of abuse, experience of trauma, and as you rightly say, collectively,
they increase the risk. And likewise you can have the opposite.
So if you've got a supportive family, if you've got
a pro social identity, if you've got empathy, if you
experience guilt rather than shame, all of these things are
(11:36):
protective factors which can reduce the risk.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Of course, socioeconomic status and race have a huge part
to play too. Ricky Seys he always had complex feelings
about his racial background growing up, and he now recognizes
the impact of intergenerational trauma within his FARNO. These all
contributed to the feeling that he was just different, wrong
(12:00):
other and in his early twenties, Ricky broke.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Just like, oh my god, who am I?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
I hate myself on a piece of shit, you know,
Like I spiraled down and got worse and worse. I
found myself smoking copious amounts of cannabis, and then from cannabis,
it just went on to drinking every day. And then
I was involving myself around family members.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
That were on hard drugs and then found obviously from meth, and.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
That took me, took my life on a whole different
trajectory around a lot of the underclass around Auckland, and
you know, I found myself going in.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
A van and you know, just like doing anything.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
To get money, you know, like it could be stealing
copper or just I can being a rascal and just
doing unsavory things to feed the habit.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
In his early twenties, Ricky was in a bad way.
He was addicted to myth and his self worth was
rock bottom.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
I was desperate to remove myself from an environment that
I couldn't navigate. I didn't have any support networks. I
didn't know how to create them, just trying to call
out for help through services and stuff that were like
your too hard basket, has some fucking antidepressants because we
(13:47):
don't know what to do, you know, okay, a couple
of respites.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I just couldn't quite figure it out. All I knew
is that if I was to get like.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
You know, if I.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Could just get high, I could alleviate my sufferings.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Right, It was not to be social.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
It wasn't to go.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Off and I can go and party and be with
other light minded individuals. It was for me to go
back to my space and engage in more savory activities
like reading, like studying, and like music.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Talk to me about that, because that's something you mentioned
when we spoke on the phone, and I think that's
really important about the experience of taking drugs for you.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
It would go week to week for me, so around
the Wednesday and Thursdays when I actually had money or
managed to flip something off.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
You know, if I.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Couldn't get anything super strong, I would spend any money
I had on party pills twenty years ago, you know,
and very very very strong ones, and then take very
very dangerous amounts of them. And what that would do
would slow me down.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
These might have slowed Ricky down at the time, but
the long term effects were catish, strophic, and it's a
very real problem in al Taora. There's local research from
a few years ago that shows those with ADHD are
three times as likely to have a substance use disorder,
but early treatment with ADHD, medication brings the risk right
(15:16):
down in line with the rest of the population. I
ask Anton Ashcroft for his take. Why are ADHD in
substance abuse so closely connected.
Speaker 7 (15:28):
I mean, it's common for ADHD brains to seek that
immediate hit. So you can take drugs to normalize your brain,
and you can also take drugs to excite your brain,
and ADHD brains often do both. Neurotypical will take beth
because it makes them feel ten foot tall and bulletproof,
and they can often feel a lot more confident and
(15:50):
words come out much more freely. But for ADHD brains
absolutely It's the same with coffee that if you have
a stereotypical physiological response to still mulants, they actually calm
you down. I've got linear thinking. I can focus my thinking.
I can pay attention to things for a longer period
of time. Yeah, I feel my God, is this how
(16:11):
normal people feel?
Speaker 4 (16:15):
When I managed to get my hand on stimulance, you
know I was able to be in my space, I'd
be calmer, I'd be able to communicate calmly.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
So what you said, well, while other people get this
kind of you foreign feeling, you.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Just felt normal that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
You felt like like just relief almost, Like is it
what you're saying?
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Like just peace, alleviation of the symptoms, peace, be able
to be comfortable in one space as opposed to needing
to get up and move from place to place with
no direction, looking for something that I had no idea
I was looking for. And you know, I'd go and
I'd try to connect and communicate of anyone that I
(17:01):
could when I was under the influence, just to sort
of emotionally connect with someone to be able to explain
what was going on. So I would spiral down, and
it was because I couldn't articulate or explain what was
going on, Like I couldn't go to a doctor at
that time and go, hey, I'll tell you what does
(17:22):
fucking work? Some of those party pills are as central
nervous stimulants.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
That gives me baseline, Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
And that's the predicament many people find themselves in. They
turn to illicit substances to self medicate, unaware or unable
to access other treatment options. Ricky was sure there must
be something legal that could give them clarity because the
illegal drugs were rea can have it in so many
other ways.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
I'd find myself staying at these respite places like Pathways
for three days, and you know, I'll be describe things
like antipsychotics. And it was three days of being able
to be off the road, you know, out of my
own way, a chance to stop for three days, eat properly,
sleep properly, take com medication properly.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
And they were like three to five days at a time.
And I'd been right after that.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
But a brief respite at Pathways was not a long
term solution. As soon as Ricky was out, the vicious
cycle would begin again.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
You know, I had no friends.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
I was unkempt and didn't look after themself, you know,
looking at myself back then, I think I looked at
my my mug shots and I just and I looked
like a demon.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I was just like, well, there's no salvation for me.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I'm just gonna do this because if I do this,
I'm definitely going to get caught.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
I'm going to go to prison. Man, maybe I should
be in prison.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
And so on a Friday morning in September two thousand
and five, Ricky was high on drugs, but at his
lowest point, he walked into a bank in East Auckland
carrying a pistol. He fired a shot in the air,
and he demanded money from the bank teller. What followed
was a dramatic police chase and a dramatic arrest.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
I literally picked myself in prison because I didn't know,
like rest, fite and stuff wasn't working for me for
three days at a time.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I needed somewhere where I could find.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
That regime, where I could access study and basically have
my decisions made for me for two years or what
was for two years ultimately, but I actually felt empowered
by the idea of having my decisions made for me
for an unknown amount of time, because, you know, because
(19:47):
I needed their help.
Speaker 7 (19:49):
I've worked with quite a few offenders who have said
exactly the same. They were broken outside, so they effectively
got caught so that they could spend some time in
a more structured, predictable and not drug free because drugs
are prevalent in prison, but limited access to.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Drugs, and interestingly, we look at prison as a deterrent.
But as you say, some of them are like, well,
that's where.
Speaker 7 (20:16):
This is what I'm used to, this is what I know.
Bring it on and actually to connect with someone and
have some nourishment and feel as though there's a value
and a purpose to you and your life. That's way
more powerful.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
You said, I made a choice that I just regret
about the burglary, And I thought, was it really a choice?
I know that you have to be accountable and all
that stuff, But did you have a choice or was
it almost inevitable? Was it like was just turning and
that was what was going to happen. Yeah, there's this
(21:07):
narrative like people know right from wrong, we have to
have tougher consequences. I think we're coming at this the
wrong way, like, oh, let's be tougher. It's beyond that
for many people.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Yeah, because if you've lost respect for yourself, care and
kindness and love and compassions all out the window. So
I definitely see it as a inevitable flow on to
something from accountability perspective, it's quite hard for me to
say that it wasn't a choice, But I totally see
(21:40):
what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I guess if we want to look at how we
can help, there's not this kind of continual cycle. The
answer is not tougher consequences.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
No, Yeah, definitely, I totally agree with the answer is
not tougher, tougher consequences because if you think.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
About the rates of recivitism, the rates of recidivism are
high for all offenders, but particularly for Maori and those
with substance use disorder. The odds were stacked against Treky,
but he defied them, and learning about his ADHD brain
has helped the process. What led you to getting an
(22:20):
ADHD assessment? Initially, yeah, I have ADHD come into the
picture for you.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
I had just had a career change from hospitality to
community services, and I found myself just completely completely exhausted.
People said to me just before my son was born, Oh,
you know, that's that's normal, and I said, no, this
doesn't feel normal because I've moved from hospitality where I'm
(22:47):
on my feet twelve hours a day. You know, I
can look after nine tables in a casino restaurant section.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
This is like, this is not normal.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Ricky's new job was as a caseworker in the disability sector.
The face to face part of the job was where
he thrived, but the ADMONDT tasks, the systems, the timelines,
the deadlines, they were his undoing.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
I was experiencing anxiety and disorganization within this role in
a way that I'd never quite like, I'd never experienced
it before. A slip trip and over myself, calling over myself.
I was finding at the end of the day, I
was just like I was cooked and I was done.
(23:31):
It didn't feel normal, you know. And I'd go back
to work the next day and I'd literally just.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Experience this paralysis.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
When I went to do my content creation for the day,
I was like, oh no, you know, am I depressed?
I didn't see well, you know, he got depressed. You know,
life's moving pretty good. It was just very very strange.
It's not going to end well. You know, I'm going
to end up unemployed and unable to hack it in
the workforce.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
The executive function challenges at work were one thing, but
the struggle extended to the rest of his life too.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
I just felt so numb and so like in my
own like I felt like this person in like a
perspects prison looking at his own world but couldn't get
out of that perspect's box, if that makes sense. You
know that that hyper awenness and self consciousness.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
That was very, very hard. And then I came back to.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
Remembering how integrated I felt when I.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Was using any sort of central nervous stimulants from you know.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Years ago, drugs speed speedy type pearls up as basically, and.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
That had always been baseline for me.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Ricky and his wife were living in Melbourne at the time.
Unlike New Zealand, the cost isn't prohibitive and the waitlists
aren't as long, but getting an assessment was still challenging.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
I I had to push.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
I talked to my GP.
Speaker 8 (25:03):
He referred me to a localized apiatrist and he gave
me the d IVA test And when I kind of
glanced at it and I was like, ah, great, you
know this is this is not me.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
You know, maybe I'm just creating another drama, another issue
for me, or you know, maybe I'm being a hyper contract. However,
after I had the assessment done, my doctor was just
absolutely adamant that had ADHD since since a child, and
his diagnosis and how he articulated it made me realize
(25:39):
at that point it has look honestly, Sonya has taken
me a few times. At times I've looked over it
and had to question it for myself, and sometimes I
you know, the symptoms is just so bad, and I
allowed myself to believe that I was ADHD. The journey
of understanding it and realizing it is quite empowering because.
Speaker 9 (26:00):
The idea of ADHD for myself grown up and many
others that share my background, ADHD was translated in a
way something completely different to what it actually is and
what it is for so many people.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Getting a diagnosis is sadly still a privilege. But even then,
the diagnosis is just the beginning. Now that you know
about the ADHD and all the stuff that goes with it,
like the extra sensitivity. Do you think you're hard on yourself?
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Oh yeah, definitely, and it fuck you're beating yourself up
about it because you know, like you know, you don't
want to, but it's just the way that the wiring's there. Like,
I know, I'm packing being hard on myself. I don't
go into that environment going you know, don't overthink it, man,
don't ever think you're okay.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
There's a lot of undoing.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
But you know, exnditioning. And you know you said to
me that I can't remember your exact wording, but you
always felt different. And so their tape, that tape has
been playing your whole life, So it's not going to
change overnight. When you finally took the ADHD meds, how
did you feel?
Speaker 4 (27:14):
I felt more present, more energetic, more confident in my
resolve to do things. And it's been a gradual process
in terms of social engagement, because that was the big
growth edge for me, is like why am I this way?
And why is my brain fucking going hey? Why every
(27:35):
time I'm in a social situation, awesome, beautiful life going on,
But sometimes I just can't.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I can't feel it, Like I'm just so numb.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
I'm looking at it and it's all around me, but
I can't. I can't feel it.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
And so with the assistance of medication and when it's
optimum and I am doing everything that needs to be done,
on top of that, I'm more present and I'm.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Able to invite a level of.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Calm and oneness with anything that I'm doing and where
I'm at, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
So yeah, ultimately, the mets have been great for Ricky.
He was self medicating for years with illegal drugs and
they tore his life apart. But ADHD in New Zealand
says methamphetamine can actually be easier to access than prescription
mets for ADHD. They also say that early diagnosis and
(28:27):
treatment do protect against substance abuse as an adult. But
if you don't know you have ADHD, you don't have
access to the safe prescription medication.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
This is why you're fucking so bad for you.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
Our pieza that have got in that space, you know,
that have got a long way to go for seeking
diagnosis now they require the support in this list life
changing medication.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
And just the toiling and the burden that many have
to go go go through without that.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
And that's that's why it's such a beautiful thing of
what you're doing raising awareness because you know what you
see it every day.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
You know nice thing it too.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Man, it's hard to imagine that Ricky, this charming kind
father of two, was once a drug edit who robbed
a banque at gunpoint. And that's why hearing his story
is so important. Ricky reached a fork in the road
and tried desperately to take the right path, but everything
was working against him.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
You know, men that are in rehab facilities and going
into prison, much like myself once upon a time, just
didn't know where and how.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
To access the help that they needed.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
They don't know where to go and how to succeed
treatment because of the stigma you know behind that like
you know, if you're told that you might as well
be dismissed and I can taken out, you know, that's
where where these people are supposed to go for that
support and advocacy.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
For me from twenty years ago, my story, I found.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
It very very hard to access that think that was
based on so many complex views of myself at stage,
and I think.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
That that's still a very real.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
Thing for you know many and what it must look
like for those young people now is it must be so,
it must be hard.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
It must be very hard. So what can be done
into an aircraft? Thinks we need to change our.
Speaker 7 (30:25):
Approach thinking about it logically, if you've got an ADHD brain,
we know that ADHD brains respond way more to reward
than they do to punishment. And because a lot of
the ADHD is also have a long history of punishment,
punishment becomes less and less punishing the more you experience it,
of course, so to put and they've done it with
(30:47):
youth offending centers, you know, having these places that they
send young offenders to to teach them the right and
wrong and make it more rigid and almost like a
boot camp situation. And the research says every time it's
been changed, it's categorically.
Speaker 6 (31:04):
Not helpful because you're in again, I know.
Speaker 7 (31:07):
But because what you're basically doing is you're punishing people
for things they already know they're doing badly. What you
need to do is reward people for things that they
could be doing well and as soon as you see it,
to enhance it and nourish it and allow it to blossom.
Speaker 6 (31:22):
And boot camps don't do that.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Anton is not saying there should be no culpability. And
of course when there's a crime, there are victims and
they must always stay part of the conversation, but ultimately
we want less victims. Antin believes that real change can
only come when we understand the underlying reasons for the wrongdoing.
He's always searched for connection with the offenders he works with,
(31:48):
and this is where he thrives.
Speaker 7 (31:50):
When I was younger, not now, but when I was younger,
I used to say, give me the most complicated, challenging
people you can give me.
Speaker 6 (31:57):
Because I want to find a way in.
Speaker 7 (32:00):
And probably maybe seventy eighty percent of the time there
was always a way in because there was some humanity
sitting underneath the anger and the pain and the hurt.
And when you can start to talk to someone in
a way that gradually you build the rapport because you're
listening to them. You're not challenging them or trying to
change them. It's just trying to help understand for them
(32:21):
to understand themselves. Really, but when you are working in
that way, it's really hard. If someone is really empathic
and really warm towards you, it's quite hard to be resistant.
Just for me to start off by saying, thanks for coming,
really appreciate it. You don't want to be here, do you? No,
I don't want to be here, And it's like we've
now got an agreement. We've immediately got a sense of
(32:43):
being on the same page. And so for me, when
I work with people, I see it, well, most of
the time, I see a good person who's done a
bad thing, and they've done that thing for some reason,
there is a functionality to that behavior. Almost everyone that
I work with have amazing strengths, So why don't we
(33:06):
help them maximize their strengths rather than effectively punish them
for areas that are real challenges? Because the more you
say to someone, and we do it in work, you
put people in work and you interview them for their strengths,
and then when you do continuing professional development, you focus
on what they're not good at. And the more you
focus on something that people aren't good at, the more
(33:26):
stress they experience. What we're essentially saying to people is
in order to succeed, you have to not be you.
And how wrong is that?
Speaker 1 (33:42):
A line we often hear around crime is everyone knows
right from wrong. But what if you've always been told
that you are wrong? Then surely the lines between good
and bad and right and wrong get Bluey Ricky is
on the right side now and he's enjoying life with
a young family. But I wonder, with all that he's
(34:02):
been through, can he finally embrace his unique brain.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
I'm welcoming all this beautiful, positive, bright energy into my
life and getting all this this gold because I've spent
too much time in my life not not hearing that,
not listening to it.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Once you find it, and then you know, you.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
Find the balance. Just superficial things they will fall off.
You know, there's things that you feel like you can't
let go of. They will fall off. I've always been
ultimately passionate about where men are, you know, particularly in
the prison system back home, and I think that's yeah,
I man, I'm proud to be you know, one of
the what I what I think is one of the bros,
(34:41):
one of the trailblazers that that cares and will care,
you know, about our people. And it's going to take
a while, you know, it'll take a while and take
different circles, different groups.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Different, one thing is different.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
Who is it's all going to it's it's a journey,
beach and every one of us, you know, all of us.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
We've spoken a few times, and the thing that has
struck me is your complete dedication to fatherhood.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
And I just think that your kids are so lucky
and just even you know, he's seeing you with them
and they are your priority. Like that's so beautiful.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
I'm very very proud of that. And it's really like
I thank you for seeing it. It's lovely to be.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Seen next time.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
I no such thing as normal.
Speaker 5 (35:32):
As a dad.
Speaker 10 (35:33):
It's your role, like it's ingrained in you to be
a provider and a protector for your family. And when
your boy is non verbal and he can't tell you
what's wrong. You can't help but feel like a failure
sometimes because you can't give them what they need.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
If you like this podcast, please rate and review it.
It helps people find it. No Such Thing as Normal
is produced and presented by me Sonia Gray. The editor
is Jamie Lee Smith. Arwen O'Connor and Mitchell Hawkes are
executive producers. You can find us on Instagram at No
Such Thing as Normal Podcast. The series is brought to
(36:22):
you by the New Zealand Herald and Team Uniform and
it's made with the support of New Zealand on Air.
New episodes of No Such Thing As Normal are available
wherever you get your podcasts.
Just to note this episode does contain course language.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
The night before I was done, I was done with
my life.
Speaker 3 (00:07):
I was like, you know what fucked this.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
That I hadn't slept.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
So I was like, you know what, I'm either going
to fucking drive off a cliff or I'm going to
go and rob a bank.
Speaker 3 (00:21):
And so I robbed the bank.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
This is Ricky twenty years ago. He committed a violent crime,
a crime that for most of us is unthinkable.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
I went into the bank, I discharged the firearm in
the bank.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
In a vertical position.
Speaker 4 (00:43):
I demanded a bunch of money. I was so dumb
and so stupid. The Task Forces Task Force Norkan got
on me, predicuickly. I took them for a massive case
around the sortland, trying to obeye them.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
Finally came to in my neighborhood.
Speaker 4 (01:05):
I had a lot of armed police officers on me,
ready to blow my head off for.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
A very scary, scary situation. I was taken and I
was thrown in mount Eden for the weekend.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
It was the worst day of my life going into
Mounting because I had not I had not committed any prime.
I worked as a shift you know, globally I was qualified,
you know, So.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
It's just not it's a very out of character.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
When you said you were stupid and it was darne,
and yes it was, but also you were desperate, you
were at the end.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Yeah, yeah, I was Gelda.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
I'm Sonia Gray and this is no such thing as normal.
Series two, I'm diving into the complex and fascinating world
of neurodiversity. I'm not an expert, but my daughter is
neurodivergent and a few years ago I was diagnosed with ADHD.
In this series, you'll hear from experts and from many
wonderful people who experience the world in a unique way.
(02:14):
We're looking at neurodiversity from the inside. The intersection between
neurodivergence and the criminal justice system is not well understood,
but the actual stats are alarming. Those with ADHD or
(02:36):
dyslexia are approximately five times as likely to be incarcerated
at some point in their lives. But then those same
neurotypes are also more likely to be successful entrepreneurs and CEOs.
So what is it about different cognition that means you
have a better chance of becoming a billionaire and a
better chance of ending up behind bars? Where is the
(02:59):
four in the Road. In this episode, we're looking at
how and why some individuals like Ricky end up on
the wrong path.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
Mm hmmm, all right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Ricky's focus right now is his role as stay at
home dad to us two boys aged one and three,
financially work. It's a job he takes very seriously.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
You know, you're responsible for the building of a brain here.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
You know, our children are our polder man, and I've
definitely been blessed to beautiful sons, and they are part
of my purpose. You know, I've been seeking my purpose
for for a while and I look at them and.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
It's it's pretty amazing. You know.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
I do have to practice that, that gratitude for where
I'm at. Man, I just you know, I've gone from
some fucking really dark shit to being in a position
where I can I can get I can put my
kid on the bike and I can ride him down
to the beach, I can ride him down to the park,
and you.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Know, I can take him for a walk after dinner.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
And then I give thanks to that, you know, because
I've had a lot of hard work in my own
way to do that, and honoring my wife and the
work that she does to have that comfortable space for us.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
Ricky is forty two now. He's articulate, a deep thinker,
and passionate about making a difference, which is why he's
agreed to talk openly and honestly about a time in
his life he'd rather forget. The crime was serious, and
Ricky deeply regrets it, but he's keen for people to
know the why, what happened to get him to that place.
(04:54):
He believes a big factor was his undiagnosed ADHD, and
there were clues from an early age.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
Very very very intense.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
I remember being hyper aware of, you know, my footprint,
and I would be told, are you sensitive? And if
you focus on this, you're going to give yourself a context.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
Well, you know, like at eight, like you don't even know.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
What a fucking complex is.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
And so it's even it's adding fuel to the fire
more now it's like, you know.
Speaker 4 (05:28):
We can't quite figure out how to make things consistent
for you, but we know something's wrong.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
Like many with ADHD, Ricky feels the world intensely. Rejection
sensitive dysphoria or RISD is innate to the ADHD experience,
but it's still not officially part of the diagnostic criteria,
so it's not always taken seriously. RSD describes the intense
emotional and physical pain that adhd is feel when they're
(05:59):
rejected or criticized.
Speaker 6 (06:01):
It hurts a lot.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
The response can be shut down withdrawal, anger, and incredibly
low self esteem. When Ricky's psychiatrist explained rejection sensitive dysphoria,
it was a light bulb moment for him.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
Finally something, Finally someone who understands. It's not something that
you can just switch off.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Fuck.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
If I could switch it off, i'd be great, you know.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
But then again, I wouldn't want to be one of
those shocks or outfits that just went along in life
and just didn't give a fuck about anyone's feelings or
what anyone said.
Speaker 1 (06:37):
Looking back at your school experience, what was it like?
Do you feel like you fit it in?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
No?
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Not at all.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I never fit in at school.
Speaker 3 (06:46):
Never.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
School was not easy for me. I went to numerous
schools inter media. In college, I was very on the outside.
I could never be involved in a.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Group at an environment.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
It was very overwhelming for me.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
So it was easier for me just to remove myself
from anything like that.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
I found it very, very hard.
Speaker 4 (07:09):
To focus because this is so self conscious and self aware.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Ricky left school at fifteen, but he sent me a
school reports for the five years before that and reading
them it's pretty bleak. Lax discipline, immature class behavior, a
very disruptive influence on the rest of the class, easily distracted,
must learn to work quietly, must learn to listen to instructions.
(07:38):
Poor results are of his own making, and it goes on.
There's one positive comment, he's very interested in how people think,
feel and act, but apart from that, there's not much encouragement.
ADHD is often called the school to prison pipeline because
for many school is a place you're constantly reminded that
(08:01):
you're different. Research shows that by the time they're twelve,
boys with ADHD have received twenty thousand more critical or
negative messages than those without ADHD. Antoin Ashcroft is a
forensic psychologist. He works worth and studies people who break
the law, and Anton says it's the early years of
(08:22):
school that can be the most damaging.
Speaker 6 (08:27):
That's where our social identity gets set.
Speaker 7 (08:30):
So you can imagine what it would be like if
you're seen in a classroom as being disruptive and interruptive
of others and fighting people to get what you want,
and that label will stick. And then from that label
comes your whole sense. It's called schema. You set up
your schema about yourself, the world, and other people. And
from that young age, if you say well, I am
(08:51):
weird and odd, other people that can't be trusted and
the world is dangerous, that then stays with you for
the pretty much the rest of your life.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
It takes a long time. Is it possible to erase
the tape?
Speaker 6 (09:04):
It is.
Speaker 7 (09:05):
We develop scripts and we can change those scripts, but
we have to go through a process of unlearning the
first scripts and learning some new scripts. And initially, if
you imagine that the old script a script is a
bit like a motorway. You go down that script so
so easily, and your new script is perhaps trying to
(09:25):
go to a narrow thicket with loads of bushes and things,
and you're pushing through and it's really effortful. But over
a period of time, if you maintain that effort with support,
that thicket starts to get brushed down, it gets wider,
and then it starts to compete with the motorway. So
you then have a choice. But it's very rare for
that script to just suddenly flip.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Enton's helped to flip some of the toughest scripts. He
worked as a forensic psychologist in prisons for many years,
and his approach was to look beyond the offenses and
find the positive quality of those behind bars.
Speaker 7 (10:02):
Approximately eighty percent of the people that I was working
with in prison, I would say were good people. They
were people who had had a tough life or a
tougher environment, or a history of trauma or undiagnosed neurodiversity
of some sort. Really didn't know how to manage that
because it got overwhelmed and in prison approximately fifty percent,
(10:25):
but the research varies anywhere from like thirty up to
seventy five. Eighty percent would have an undiagnosed or die
even diagnosed ADHD condition.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Anon says the rates of dyslexia are very high too,
but of course having a cognitive difference is not a
prerequisite for prison. Most people with ADHD or dyslexia never
intercept with the criminal justice system. In fact, we know
that these types of brains are the innovators, the change makers.
So where is the fork in the road, What might
(10:56):
send someone down the wrong path. I'm imagining that there
are other layers. So if there's another layer of adverse childhood,
of ments or trauma, you're upping the likelihood immensely. Like
anecdotally do you find there's a mix of the two.
Speaker 7 (11:13):
That always and the risk factors are things like a
history of abuse, experience of trauma, and as you rightly say, collectively,
they increase the risk. And likewise you can have the opposite.
So if you've got a supportive family, if you've got
a pro social identity, if you've got empathy, if you
experience guilt rather than shame, all of these things are
(11:36):
protective factors which can reduce the risk.
Speaker 1 (11:39):
Of course, socioeconomic status and race have a huge part
to play too. Ricky Seys he always had complex feelings
about his racial background growing up, and he now recognizes
the impact of intergenerational trauma within his FARNO. These all
contributed to the feeling that he was just different, wrong
(12:00):
other and in his early twenties, Ricky broke.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Just like, oh my god, who am I?
Speaker 4 (12:08):
I hate myself on a piece of shit, you know,
Like I spiraled down and got worse and worse. I
found myself smoking copious amounts of cannabis, and then from cannabis,
it just went on to drinking every day. And then
I was involving myself around family members.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
That were on hard drugs and then found obviously from meth, and.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
That took me, took my life on a whole different
trajectory around a lot of the underclass around Auckland, and
you know, I found myself going in.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
A van and you know, just like doing anything.
Speaker 4 (12:48):
To get money, you know, like it could be stealing
copper or just I can being a rascal and just
doing unsavory things to feed the habit.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
In his early twenties, Ricky was in a bad way.
He was addicted to myth and his self worth was
rock bottom.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
I was desperate to remove myself from an environment that
I couldn't navigate. I didn't have any support networks. I
didn't know how to create them, just trying to call
out for help through services and stuff that were like
your too hard basket, has some fucking antidepressants because we
(13:47):
don't know what to do, you know, okay, a couple
of respites.
Speaker 2 (13:50):
I just couldn't quite figure it out. All I knew
is that if I was to get like.
Speaker 3 (13:57):
You know, if I.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
Could just get high, I could alleviate my sufferings.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Right, It was not to be social.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
It wasn't to go.
Speaker 4 (14:05):
Off and I can go and party and be with
other light minded individuals. It was for me to go
back to my space and engage in more savory activities
like reading, like studying, and like music.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Talk to me about that, because that's something you mentioned
when we spoke on the phone, and I think that's
really important about the experience of taking drugs for you.
Speaker 4 (14:25):
It would go week to week for me, so around
the Wednesday and Thursdays when I actually had money or
managed to flip something off.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
You know, if I.
Speaker 4 (14:33):
Couldn't get anything super strong, I would spend any money
I had on party pills twenty years ago, you know,
and very very very strong ones, and then take very
very dangerous amounts of them. And what that would do
would slow me down.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
These might have slowed Ricky down at the time, but
the long term effects were catish, strophic, and it's a
very real problem in al Taora. There's local research from
a few years ago that shows those with ADHD are
three times as likely to have a substance use disorder,
but early treatment with ADHD, medication brings the risk right
(15:16):
down in line with the rest of the population. I
ask Anton Ashcroft for his take. Why are ADHD in
substance abuse so closely connected.
Speaker 7 (15:28):
I mean, it's common for ADHD brains to seek that
immediate hit. So you can take drugs to normalize your brain,
and you can also take drugs to excite your brain,
and ADHD brains often do both. Neurotypical will take beth
because it makes them feel ten foot tall and bulletproof,
and they can often feel a lot more confident and
(15:50):
words come out much more freely. But for ADHD brains
absolutely It's the same with coffee that if you have
a stereotypical physiological response to still mulants, they actually calm
you down. I've got linear thinking. I can focus my thinking.
I can pay attention to things for a longer period
of time. Yeah, I feel my God, is this how
(16:11):
normal people feel?
Speaker 4 (16:15):
When I managed to get my hand on stimulance, you
know I was able to be in my space, I'd
be calmer, I'd be able to communicate calmly.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
So what you said, well, while other people get this
kind of you foreign feeling, you.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Just felt normal that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1 (16:34):
You felt like like just relief almost, Like is it
what you're saying?
Speaker 4 (16:38):
Like just peace, alleviation of the symptoms, peace, be able
to be comfortable in one space as opposed to needing
to get up and move from place to place with
no direction, looking for something that I had no idea
I was looking for. And you know, I'd go and
I'd try to connect and communicate of anyone that I
(17:01):
could when I was under the influence, just to sort
of emotionally connect with someone to be able to explain
what was going on. So I would spiral down, and
it was because I couldn't articulate or explain what was
going on, Like I couldn't go to a doctor at
that time and go, hey, I'll tell you what does
(17:22):
fucking work? Some of those party pills are as central
nervous stimulants.
Speaker 2 (17:27):
That gives me baseline, Do you know what I'm saying?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
And that's the predicament many people find themselves in. They
turn to illicit substances to self medicate, unaware or unable
to access other treatment options. Ricky was sure there must
be something legal that could give them clarity because the
illegal drugs were rea can have it in so many
other ways.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
I'd find myself staying at these respite places like Pathways
for three days, and you know, I'll be describe things
like antipsychotics. And it was three days of being able
to be off the road, you know, out of my
own way, a chance to stop for three days, eat properly,
sleep properly, take com medication properly.
Speaker 2 (18:15):
And they were like three to five days at a time.
And I'd been right after that.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
But a brief respite at Pathways was not a long
term solution. As soon as Ricky was out, the vicious
cycle would begin again.
Speaker 2 (18:28):
You know, I had no friends.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
I was unkempt and didn't look after themself, you know,
looking at myself back then, I think I looked at
my my mug shots and I just and I looked
like a demon.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
I was just like, well, there's no salvation for me.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
I'm just gonna do this because if I do this,
I'm definitely going to get caught.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
I'm going to go to prison. Man, maybe I should
be in prison.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
And so on a Friday morning in September two thousand
and five, Ricky was high on drugs, but at his
lowest point, he walked into a bank in East Auckland
carrying a pistol. He fired a shot in the air,
and he demanded money from the bank teller. What followed
was a dramatic police chase and a dramatic arrest.
Speaker 4 (19:14):
I literally picked myself in prison because I didn't know,
like rest, fite and stuff wasn't working for me for
three days at a time.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
I needed somewhere where I could find.
Speaker 4 (19:26):
That regime, where I could access study and basically have
my decisions made for me for two years or what
was for two years ultimately, but I actually felt empowered
by the idea of having my decisions made for me
for an unknown amount of time, because, you know, because
(19:47):
I needed their help.
Speaker 7 (19:49):
I've worked with quite a few offenders who have said
exactly the same. They were broken outside, so they effectively
got caught so that they could spend some time in
a more structured, predictable and not drug free because drugs
are prevalent in prison, but limited access to.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Drugs, and interestingly, we look at prison as a deterrent.
But as you say, some of them are like, well,
that's where.
Speaker 7 (20:16):
This is what I'm used to, this is what I know.
Bring it on and actually to connect with someone and
have some nourishment and feel as though there's a value
and a purpose to you and your life. That's way
more powerful.
Speaker 1 (20:43):
You said, I made a choice that I just regret
about the burglary, And I thought, was it really a choice?
I know that you have to be accountable and all
that stuff, But did you have a choice or was
it almost inevitable? Was it like was just turning and
that was what was going to happen. Yeah, there's this
(21:07):
narrative like people know right from wrong, we have to
have tougher consequences. I think we're coming at this the
wrong way, like, oh, let's be tougher. It's beyond that
for many people.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Yeah, because if you've lost respect for yourself, care and
kindness and love and compassions all out the window. So
I definitely see it as a inevitable flow on to
something from accountability perspective, it's quite hard for me to
say that it wasn't a choice, But I totally see
(21:40):
what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
I guess if we want to look at how we
can help, there's not this kind of continual cycle. The
answer is not tougher consequences.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
No, Yeah, definitely, I totally agree with the answer is
not tougher, tougher consequences because if you think.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
About the rates of recivitism, the rates of recidivism are
high for all offenders, but particularly for Maori and those
with substance use disorder. The odds were stacked against Treky,
but he defied them, and learning about his ADHD brain
has helped the process. What led you to getting an
(22:20):
ADHD assessment? Initially, yeah, I have ADHD come into the
picture for you.
Speaker 4 (22:26):
I had just had a career change from hospitality to
community services, and I found myself just completely completely exhausted.
People said to me just before my son was born, Oh,
you know, that's that's normal, and I said, no, this
doesn't feel normal because I've moved from hospitality where I'm
(22:47):
on my feet twelve hours a day. You know, I
can look after nine tables in a casino restaurant section.
Speaker 3 (22:53):
This is like, this is not normal.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Ricky's new job was as a caseworker in the disability sector.
The face to face part of the job was where
he thrived, but the ADMONDT tasks, the systems, the timelines,
the deadlines, they were his undoing.
Speaker 4 (23:10):
I was experiencing anxiety and disorganization within this role in
a way that I'd never quite like, I'd never experienced
it before. A slip trip and over myself, calling over myself.
I was finding at the end of the day, I
was just like I was cooked and I was done.
(23:31):
It didn't feel normal, you know. And I'd go back
to work the next day and I'd literally just.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
Experience this paralysis.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
When I went to do my content creation for the day,
I was like, oh no, you know, am I depressed?
I didn't see well, you know, he got depressed. You know,
life's moving pretty good. It was just very very strange.
It's not going to end well. You know, I'm going
to end up unemployed and unable to hack it in
the workforce.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
The executive function challenges at work were one thing, but
the struggle extended to the rest of his life too.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
I just felt so numb and so like in my
own like I felt like this person in like a
perspects prison looking at his own world but couldn't get
out of that perspect's box, if that makes sense. You
know that that hyper awenness and self consciousness.
Speaker 3 (24:22):
That was very, very hard. And then I came back to.
Speaker 4 (24:28):
Remembering how integrated I felt when I.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
Was using any sort of central nervous stimulants from you know.
Speaker 4 (24:37):
Years ago, drugs speed speedy type pearls up as basically, and.
Speaker 3 (24:44):
That had always been baseline for me.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Ricky and his wife were living in Melbourne at the time.
Unlike New Zealand, the cost isn't prohibitive and the waitlists
aren't as long, but getting an assessment was still challenging.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
I I had to push.
Speaker 3 (25:01):
I talked to my GP.
Speaker 8 (25:03):
He referred me to a localized apiatrist and he gave
me the d IVA test And when I kind of
glanced at it and I was like, ah, great, you
know this is this is not me.
Speaker 4 (25:15):
You know, maybe I'm just creating another drama, another issue
for me, or you know, maybe I'm being a hyper contract. However,
after I had the assessment done, my doctor was just
absolutely adamant that had ADHD since since a child, and
his diagnosis and how he articulated it made me realize
(25:39):
at that point it has look honestly, Sonya has taken
me a few times. At times I've looked over it
and had to question it for myself, and sometimes I
you know, the symptoms is just so bad, and I
allowed myself to believe that I was ADHD. The journey
of understanding it and realizing it is quite empowering because.
Speaker 9 (26:00):
The idea of ADHD for myself grown up and many
others that share my background, ADHD was translated in a
way something completely different to what it actually is and
what it is for so many people.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Getting a diagnosis is sadly still a privilege. But even then,
the diagnosis is just the beginning. Now that you know
about the ADHD and all the stuff that goes with it,
like the extra sensitivity. Do you think you're hard on yourself?
Speaker 4 (26:33):
Oh yeah, definitely, and it fuck you're beating yourself up
about it because you know, like you know, you don't
want to, but it's just the way that the wiring's there. Like,
I know, I'm packing being hard on myself. I don't
go into that environment going you know, don't overthink it, man,
don't ever think you're okay.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
There's a lot of undoing.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
But you know, exnditioning. And you know you said to
me that I can't remember your exact wording, but you
always felt different. And so their tape, that tape has
been playing your whole life, So it's not going to
change overnight. When you finally took the ADHD meds, how
did you feel?
Speaker 4 (27:14):
I felt more present, more energetic, more confident in my
resolve to do things. And it's been a gradual process
in terms of social engagement, because that was the big
growth edge for me, is like why am I this way?
And why is my brain fucking going hey? Why every
(27:35):
time I'm in a social situation, awesome, beautiful life going on,
But sometimes I just can't.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
I can't feel it, Like I'm just so numb.
Speaker 3 (27:44):
I'm looking at it and it's all around me, but
I can't. I can't feel it.
Speaker 4 (27:48):
And so with the assistance of medication and when it's
optimum and I am doing everything that needs to be done,
on top of that, I'm more present and I'm.
Speaker 3 (27:58):
Able to invite a level of.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Calm and oneness with anything that I'm doing and where
I'm at, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
So yeah, ultimately, the mets have been great for Ricky.
He was self medicating for years with illegal drugs and
they tore his life apart. But ADHD in New Zealand
says methamphetamine can actually be easier to access than prescription
mets for ADHD. They also say that early diagnosis and
(28:27):
treatment do protect against substance abuse as an adult. But
if you don't know you have ADHD, you don't have
access to the safe prescription medication.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
This is why you're fucking so bad for you.
Speaker 4 (28:41):
Our pieza that have got in that space, you know,
that have got a long way to go for seeking
diagnosis now they require the support in this list life
changing medication.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
And just the toiling and the burden that many have
to go go go through without that.
Speaker 4 (28:58):
And that's that's why it's such a beautiful thing of
what you're doing raising awareness because you know what you
see it every day.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
You know nice thing it too.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
Man, it's hard to imagine that Ricky, this charming kind
father of two, was once a drug edit who robbed
a banque at gunpoint. And that's why hearing his story
is so important. Ricky reached a fork in the road
and tried desperately to take the right path, but everything
was working against him.
Speaker 4 (29:27):
You know, men that are in rehab facilities and going
into prison, much like myself once upon a time, just
didn't know where and how.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
To access the help that they needed.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
They don't know where to go and how to succeed
treatment because of the stigma you know behind that like
you know, if you're told that you might as well
be dismissed and I can taken out, you know, that's
where where these people are supposed to go for that
support and advocacy.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
For me from twenty years ago, my story, I found.
Speaker 4 (29:57):
It very very hard to access that think that was
based on so many complex views of myself at stage,
and I think.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
That that's still a very real.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
Thing for you know many and what it must look
like for those young people now is it must be so,
it must be hard.
Speaker 1 (30:19):
It must be very hard. So what can be done
into an aircraft? Thinks we need to change our.
Speaker 7 (30:25):
Approach thinking about it logically, if you've got an ADHD brain,
we know that ADHD brains respond way more to reward
than they do to punishment. And because a lot of
the ADHD is also have a long history of punishment,
punishment becomes less and less punishing the more you experience it,
of course, so to put and they've done it with
(30:47):
youth offending centers, you know, having these places that they
send young offenders to to teach them the right and
wrong and make it more rigid and almost like a
boot camp situation. And the research says every time it's
been changed, it's categorically.
Speaker 6 (31:04):
Not helpful because you're in again, I know.
Speaker 7 (31:07):
But because what you're basically doing is you're punishing people
for things they already know they're doing badly. What you
need to do is reward people for things that they
could be doing well and as soon as you see it,
to enhance it and nourish it and allow it to blossom.
Speaker 6 (31:22):
And boot camps don't do that.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
Anton is not saying there should be no culpability. And
of course when there's a crime, there are victims and
they must always stay part of the conversation, but ultimately
we want less victims. Antin believes that real change can
only come when we understand the underlying reasons for the wrongdoing.
He's always searched for connection with the offenders he works with,
(31:48):
and this is where he thrives.
Speaker 7 (31:50):
When I was younger, not now, but when I was younger,
I used to say, give me the most complicated, challenging
people you can give me.
Speaker 6 (31:57):
Because I want to find a way in.
Speaker 7 (32:00):
And probably maybe seventy eighty percent of the time there
was always a way in because there was some humanity
sitting underneath the anger and the pain and the hurt.
And when you can start to talk to someone in
a way that gradually you build the rapport because you're
listening to them. You're not challenging them or trying to
change them. It's just trying to help understand for them
(32:21):
to understand themselves. Really, but when you are working in
that way, it's really hard. If someone is really empathic
and really warm towards you, it's quite hard to be resistant.
Just for me to start off by saying, thanks for coming,
really appreciate it. You don't want to be here, do you? No,
I don't want to be here, And it's like we've
now got an agreement. We've immediately got a sense of
(32:43):
being on the same page. And so for me, when
I work with people, I see it, well, most of
the time, I see a good person who's done a
bad thing, and they've done that thing for some reason,
there is a functionality to that behavior. Almost everyone that
I work with have amazing strengths, So why don't we
(33:06):
help them maximize their strengths rather than effectively punish them
for areas that are real challenges? Because the more you
say to someone, and we do it in work, you
put people in work and you interview them for their strengths,
and then when you do continuing professional development, you focus
on what they're not good at. And the more you
focus on something that people aren't good at, the more
(33:26):
stress they experience. What we're essentially saying to people is
in order to succeed, you have to not be you.
And how wrong is that?
Speaker 1 (33:42):
A line we often hear around crime is everyone knows
right from wrong. But what if you've always been told
that you are wrong? Then surely the lines between good
and bad and right and wrong get Bluey Ricky is
on the right side now and he's enjoying life with
a young family. But I wonder, with all that he's
(34:02):
been through, can he finally embrace his unique brain.
Speaker 4 (34:06):
I'm welcoming all this beautiful, positive, bright energy into my
life and getting all this this gold because I've spent
too much time in my life not not hearing that,
not listening to it.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Once you find it, and then you know, you.
Speaker 4 (34:20):
Find the balance. Just superficial things they will fall off.
You know, there's things that you feel like you can't
let go of. They will fall off. I've always been
ultimately passionate about where men are, you know, particularly in
the prison system back home, and I think that's yeah,
I man, I'm proud to be you know, one of
the what I what I think is one of the bros,
(34:41):
one of the trailblazers that that cares and will care,
you know, about our people. And it's going to take
a while, you know, it'll take a while and take
different circles, different groups.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
Different, one thing is different.
Speaker 4 (34:52):
Who is it's all going to it's it's a journey,
beach and every one of us, you know, all of us.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
We've spoken a few times, and the thing that has
struck me is your complete dedication to fatherhood.
Speaker 3 (35:06):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
And I just think that your kids are so lucky
and just even you know, he's seeing you with them
and they are your priority. Like that's so beautiful.
Speaker 4 (35:16):
I'm very very proud of that. And it's really like
I thank you for seeing it. It's lovely to be.
Speaker 3 (35:21):
Seen next time.
Speaker 1 (35:29):
I no such thing as normal.
Speaker 5 (35:32):
As a dad.
Speaker 10 (35:33):
It's your role, like it's ingrained in you to be
a provider and a protector for your family. And when
your boy is non verbal and he can't tell you
what's wrong. You can't help but feel like a failure
sometimes because you can't give them what they need.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
If you like this podcast, please rate and review it.
It helps people find it. No Such Thing as Normal
is produced and presented by me Sonia Gray. The editor
is Jamie Lee Smith. Arwen O'Connor and Mitchell Hawkes are
executive producers. You can find us on Instagram at No
Such Thing as Normal Podcast. The series is brought to
(36:22):
you by the New Zealand Herald and Team Uniform and
it's made with the support of New Zealand on Air.
New episodes of No Such Thing As Normal are available
wherever you get your podcasts.
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