December 5, 2024 • 20 mins
Boris Johnson is one of the most instantly recognisable British politicians of this century. He was involved in politics in some capacity for 22 years as an MP, the Mayor of London, and as Prime Minister for three years from 2019 to 2022. He ultimately quit this role and politics off the back of a growing number of scandals, but his influence on British politics this century is indisputable.
Johnson has now written a book about it all, Unleashed, and this week he arrived in New Zealand as part of that promotional tour and for a series of luncheons up in Auckland. Ahead of his visit, Thomas caught up with Johnson for a chat covering AUKUS and nuclear power, his relationship with Jacinda Ardern and New Zealand, and his thoughts on Donald Trump.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hello and welcome to on the titles the New Zealand
Heralds Politics podcast, I'm your host Thomas Coughlin. Boris Johnson
is one of the most instantly recognizable British politicians of
the century. He was involved in politics in some capacity
for twenty two years I think as an MP Bear
of London, or as Prime Minister for three years from
(00:29):
twenty nineteen to twenty twenty two. Obviously, he eventually stepped
down away from politics and resigned as Prime Minister after
a number of scandals and in a very colorful way.
But obviously he was one of the most influential figures
in modern British orical history. Johnson's written a book about
(00:52):
all that which is called Unleashed. It is out of
New Zealand and this week he arrived in New Zealand
as part of a promocial too up to give a
long lunch at an event held by a general Capital
and Duco Events. Ahead of that meeting, I caught up
with with Johnson on on Zoom ahead of his journeys
(01:13):
to New Zealand and did an interview and that is
presented here for you to enjoy. The stories on the Herald.
Here to enjoy and we'll be getting next week with
more on the titles. I thought we'd start with Ucus,
one of your you know, one of your signature achievements
down in this in this part of the world. I
wanted to ask you how you how you think Orcus
(01:35):
is kind of Aucust is reshaping this region, whether you
think it's a it's a hedge against a rising China,
and whether you think it can survive a Donald Trump presidency.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So August was a wonderful but slightly serendipitously because it arose,
as everybody knows, from the failure of a defense contract
that the Australians had with the French for some submarine
and so that necessitated a talks with us about the
(02:06):
UK about the possibility of using our technology Rolls Royce
propulsion units for their summarines or helping us helping them
to build nuclear powered summarines which would be quieter and
more more efficient. And the difficulty was that although we
split the atom with the help of the New Zealander,
(02:28):
by the way, of course we we.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Didn't. We had we share the technology with Washington.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
So going right the way back to tube lines in
the nineteen forties, and and so we had to we
had to talk to Joe Biden about whether this would work.
And it was out of that really that aucust was
was was born, and it was a Australia UK US
(02:56):
Defense Pact and it's gone way beyond bearing nuclear technology.
It's now a you know, a full fledged technological defensive
alliance between partners whose trust in each other is so
deep and so intimate that they're prepared to share them
the most sensitive aspects of of nuclear technology. And yes,
(03:21):
it's true that when it happened there was a lot
of anxiety in Beijing and you know, we a lot
of push back, but it's not meant to be adversarial, certainly,
not inimical towards anybody. It's it's supposed to. It's yeah,
like it's about strengthening our alliance and there's no reason
(03:42):
why New Zealand shouldn't be involved as well as well
as well, like you know, I can see, but it's
it's look, I think eventually it is going to make
a difference in the in the in the in the Pacific,
no doubt about it. But but I hope one that
will be in favor of stability and cooperation.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Can I ask you about that the New Zealand is
weighing up whether it joins Pillar two, the non submarine
part of it. What do you think of that? Do
you think do you think there's a role for New
Zealand Do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Well, I mean, I think so, As I said so,
I think, of course there's a role for New Zealands
are very very significant player in five Eyes with us.
New Zealand is like minded with with with the UK
on many key issues, not in at least Ukraine for instance,
where New Zealand's played a very distinguished role. So of
course I think there's a there's a there's a there's
(04:32):
an obvious fit. But you know, I would stress that
none of this needs to be seen as being any
way adversarials, let alone hostile to to Beijing. And you know,
I appreciate that a lot of New Zealand's traders with
China well so frankly as ours, you know, and quite
right too. And that's that's that's life and it's no
(04:53):
bad thing. But you can you can do both.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Do you I mean, do you see New Zealand obviously
is a nuclear policy, that is that is a nuclear
propulsion into nuclear anything. Do you do you think as
the world moves on, those rules should perhaps be relates
to allow nuclear submarines to dock in New Zealand ports
to sort of improve orcust in some way.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Look that this is obviously strictly a man for New Zealand,
and you know, I would very much hesitate as a
as a you know, a UK next politician, next pub
prime minister, I'd very much hesitate to offer advice to
New Zealand about about something like like nuclear What I
would say is that it works well for I do
think that the propulsion units in the submarines are very good.
(05:40):
I think that you're making no, you're making no, You're
not in any way crossing the boundary of becoming a
becoming a you know, using nuclear technology for aggressive purposes
if you, if you, if you use the nuclear nuclear
propulsion units. But I also think that nuclear power, nuclear
(06:01):
generators are increasingly valuable. And I think one of the
one of the crises that we face in the in
the world at the moment is, and it may be
an issue in New Zealand as much as it is
in my country, is the absurd cost of energy. And
you know, we've I think when you look at what
we've done in the West, we we've we've stuffed up
our energy policies right left and center, and we we
(06:24):
haven't built enough base load new nuclear and we've we've
we've got a lot of renewables, but but the price
has been too variable.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
And you know, we're in trouble.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
And if you have if you have one single cause
for the economic problems we face inflations on the lack
of competitiveness in sum our industries, it is definitely our
energy policy and nuclear nuclear plays a role in that
we've got We've got I would go for more nuclear.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
You're you've got to be meeting with Winston Peters. I
think he's coming to your your long lunch. That's a
general kept a long lunch with Boris Johnson's the name.
It's by Duco of the incidents. It's actually sold out.
You'll be pleased to know our foreign minister when St.
Peter's is going to be is going to be there.
I think he must be winging us his way back
from Europe. He's over there at the moment. You mean
(07:12):
you've met him before. I think when you were Foreign
minister as well.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And then well and then well, absolutely, he's quite a
character and uh, well I look forward to see him again.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Can I can I ask you what if you would
you would you offer him any advice on dealing with
his new his new counterpartner in the UK, David David
Lemmy and this this new labor government, first labor government there.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
And sometimes I think that I think that you know.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
The facts of the UK New Zealand relationship. Uh, they
speak for themselves. It's a it's a it's a historical
and very important friendship. And I think that that will
be the case whoever's in whoever's in government in the
U k.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I think he'll find I'm sure he'll find David Labby,
a very congenial, congenial guy. I don't I don't don't
agree with David about everything, of course not, but he's
a very friendly guy.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
How far back to you? And do you and mister Peters.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Go, Well, I'm just trying to think.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I mean, he's always been a believer in you and
as a long time believer in.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, well so, I mean I I met him, I
must have been, you know when I first became foreign.
I mean he was right back there at twenty sixteen
or so. I think I think we met and I
came out on it. But and you're you're absolutely right
that in those days, you know, we had there weren't
many global supporters of this historic initiative because everybody, you know,
(08:43):
the foreign policy establishment was thought, you know, stick with
what you know, and there was always an anxiety about change.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
But Winston was right behind it.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
And and and and it must be said donald Trump
were two notable supporters.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
And that was why there's going to be my nixt quick.
You know, you've you've you've had a successful relationship with
Donald Trump. He does he does amuse the international sort
of foreign afairs establishment. What's your sort of what's your
advice to any any you know, world leader or or
foreign foreign minister and dealing with Donald Trump and a
Trump administration.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I'm sure Winston will have spotted this is the point
that it's not what he says, it's what he does
when he when you look at what he actually does
from the point of view of liberal internationalism, uh, you know,
which I.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Basically happen to believe in.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
He's he's very very sunned and he was much tougher,
you could say, with the Russians over over Ukraine than
the previous Democrat administration.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
He gave that.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
He gave the Ukrainians javelin missiles, tough over over over
crime here. I mean, you know, don't understand. When it
came to Syria, he was much tougher than the than
Obama had beaten. He actually, i mean bombed the bomb
the hell out of as Sad Basis after he used
(10:02):
chemical weapons against his own people, and a Sad never
did it again, right, So remember twenty thirteen, a Sad
use chemical weapons and it was a terrible thing in
the West, was humiliated when he did it in the rain.
In the administration under Trump, boom boom, lots of Syrian
planes suddenly blown the smotherings.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
He didn't do it again.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
So look, I mean, assuming on the Iran file, you know,
you could argue that Trump was really tough and effective.
So look, yeah, it's true he says a lot of
stuff about global warming that makes liberal internationalists kind of
free kiot. But on the other hand, he's got Elon Musk.
He's probably done more to decarbonize motor vehicles than anybody else.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
So let's see, let's see what happens.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
You're obviously you're a Prime minister. When negotiations concluded on
the New Zealand UK FDA, the best FTA, I think
New Zealand's if a sign, I think it's the highest
standard to this to this day. Where do you think
is Niecks for the relationship, the New Zealand UK relationship.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Then if I think, I think it's, I think we've
I think we've been talking about it already at Tomas.
I think I think it's sort of we're in the territory.
I think it's it's where you know, look, we're already
very very closely allied on five Eyes and all that.
But where do we get is that is there more
to explore on the on the strategic the technology side,
the military side, and in the in the in the
(11:29):
sort of Walkers space. I think that's probably where it
where it could go. But but that's up to New Zealand,
you know, and and and there's there's you know, I
think everybody fully respects that.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
You know, you've got a lot, you've got a lot
of fish to fry.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
That There's been a fringe, a fringe campaign, a middle
a fringe campaign that's been talking about Canada New Zealand,
Australia UK liberalizing migration rules. What do you think of that,
a free free movement between between the.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
I think I proposed that once when I was Mayor
of London. I think I did, and I think the
problem is that it slightly goes against the the my
idea of taking back control of your borders. I think
I think it's Look what I think is is certainly
I think like in the I think in the f
t A that we did, there's there's some good chapters
(12:21):
about about Mode four or whatever we call it, you know,
about pree movement from free movement of people and so on,
and that's that's probably the.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Way to do it.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
I just wanted to ask to finishment really with a
few domestic domestic things. You might have said, have you
seen the haka that's been going around the Parliament New
Zealand Palace?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Was wonderful? Yeah, I enjoyed that. Yeah, I wasn't quite
sure of its significance.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
But yeah, there's been there's been sort of controversial here
because there's been an attempt by the Speaker to discuss
whether or not punishment should be imposed on similar occurrences
in the future. I mean, what do you what do
you think of of of doing a hacker in parliament
and whether.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Or not that I think I think keeper, Look, I
mean it's up to it's up to your parliament to
decide how they wish to proceed, you know, in our
in our parliament, I think you know that if you
want to clear the public gallery, you put a hat
on and say I spy strangers. And you know they're
(13:39):
strange rituals and procedures, some of which are allowed, some
which are not, which are not are not allowed. If
if a hacker is thought to be a you know,
if everyone wants to break off for a while and
do a hacker, then then you know, that's up for
up to parliament to decide.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
You know, we have we have we have prayers. Did
you have prayers in your We have prayers. Yeah, with
a prayer, we have that sort of ritual. We we
pray for the for the for the king. We pray,
you know, all sorts of things. You know, it's up
(14:18):
to parliament to decide what what what kind of I.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Mentioned there are instances when anyone would wants to a
harper in parliament sort of if the mood takes you
it's I can I mentione. Even even in the UK
there might be instantly.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I think, you know, but again you know you'd have
to it's very much for Parliament to settle the the
what what the types of behavior and that everybody wants to.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Follow the last and the last new deal in Prime Minister,
you met was just under a doo and I was,
I was on the trip. I was, I went to
Downing Street. It was just a couple of days before
before things started to not go so well for your
your premiership was it was it sort of busy, somewhat
distracting time. It was July twenty twenty two. It's not
(15:04):
a not a great period.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
It really.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Before it was about two days before all of.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
The Really I do dimly remember that. Yes, there's a
little bit of a blur now.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yes, no, we look, I mean I had a very
good raceship with just with with Ja Cinda and you
know she she she knew down the street. Well of
course she'd actually worked in down the street before and
and so so you know, there was there was plenty
plenty to talk about.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
I do remember that.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yes, I think we had we had a we had
a proper we had a proper a proper session. Yeah,
but it was. It was a thoroughly productive meeting.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
None of that.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
There was a I'm sorry to bring up some some controversies,
but back home there was a controversy involving just under
doing yourself because in twenty twelve, when you were when
you were being discussed as a possible candidate for PM,
she weed, are people really discussing Boris Johnson as possible
candidate for p And when I lived in London and
(16:05):
you were mere he was known as the gaff man?
Did they ever? Did they ever make it to you?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Look, I don't remember, to be perfectly honest, but I think,
I think on subject of gas, gaffs are very useful,
very important gas gas. You've got to make a lot
of gas because they illuminate the truth, you know, humanize
well I don't know about that, but but but we
see when you make a gap, you say something that
everybody finds unacceptable. But the important thing is that everybody
(16:37):
has to the next thing they have to do is
try and work out why they find it unacceptable. And
it is actually very very helpful in making progress in
difficult on difficult subjects.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Sandra doing wasn't actually the gifts, didn't she you know,
she she wasn't. Wasn't her thing.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
And she she's not a big gaster. She was not.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
She was big on lockdown a lot. I remember she
ran a very tight ship when it came to COVID.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
And did you remember Look at it's very different to you,
I suppose, but you had a lot. You came late
to lockdowns, but then the winter with a.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Lot pretty much we were pretty much with the European
pack on lockdowns. But but you know, honestly, looking back,
I think if you.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Had a lot of the new COVID model and think
maybe that would have been a better option.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Well, I can't remember what it was. I think it was.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I think I think the trouble was it was like
we I think, you know, full credit to New Zealand
for for doing some some great stuff with with with COVID,
and you know, when I'm sure whatever whatever whatever you
did did was very worked. I mean, but I think
that when I look back at what we had to do,
I worry that that we haven't properly calculated the benefits
(17:46):
of the of the non the non pharmaceutical interventions of
the lockdowns by comparison with the damage, the loss of
education and so on. And you know, it's not it's
not clear how much to the lockdown's actually bent those curves,
because if you look at the disease, it's it's a
Bactrian camel around the world.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
It's two humps, and that's.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Something that's that's still you know, your you're contemplating. So
I mean, the whole world is sort of wondering whether
they went too hard one way and you went too
much like that.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Well, it's all in I should have mentioned this earlier.
It's all in my book Unleashed, which you will find
readily available all good bookshops, at bookshops in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
It's all there, is all there.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
And can you want to volge, to vulge some of
the thinking that you that you have just as well?
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Look, I think I genuinely don't.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Honestly, I think that looking back, I think that there
was now there was a sort of performer development in
the on of it. And I think that frightened people
confronted with a disease for which there is no known cure,
require society m hm to do things, even in a
ritualistic way that express some sort of control of that disease,
(19:09):
and that was that was why the rules developed in
the way that in the sort of quasi.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Biblical way that they did.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
And it's a it was about taking back control from
that and I think and that's a that's a very
important point about human psychology. Control is control is the
most important thing. Like you know, why why why why
are automatic vehicles you know so stubbornly refusing to take
(19:40):
off as a as a commercial proposition? Is because people
want to be in charge. Why do why do women
buy such prodigious quantities of face cream even though it
doesn't work and it's extremely expensive. It's because they want
the feeling of control. They want the feeling that in
the face of this natural process h wrinkling in the
(20:06):
New Zealer so which they can't control, they want to
do something and they want to feel that. They want
to feel agency. And it's the same for virtually everything wrong.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
It well, mister Johnson, thank you for your for your time,
thanks for joining and say travels to New Zealand and
I hope.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
You for to see you. Thank you very much. It
was on the tiles even Stillson's our producer.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
You can find us on iHeart radio where if you
get your podcasts and you.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Know, leave us a nice rating and review. Please and
subscribe
Hello and welcome to on the titles the New Zealand
Heralds Politics podcast, I'm your host Thomas Coughlin. Boris Johnson
is one of the most instantly recognizable British politicians of
the century. He was involved in politics in some capacity
for twenty two years I think as an MP Bear
of London, or as Prime Minister for three years from
(00:29):
twenty nineteen to twenty twenty two. Obviously, he eventually stepped
down away from politics and resigned as Prime Minister after
a number of scandals and in a very colorful way.
But obviously he was one of the most influential figures
in modern British orical history. Johnson's written a book about
(00:52):
all that which is called Unleashed. It is out of
New Zealand and this week he arrived in New Zealand
as part of a promocial too up to give a
long lunch at an event held by a general Capital
and Duco Events. Ahead of that meeting, I caught up
with with Johnson on on Zoom ahead of his journeys
(01:13):
to New Zealand and did an interview and that is
presented here for you to enjoy. The stories on the Herald.
Here to enjoy and we'll be getting next week with
more on the titles. I thought we'd start with Ucus,
one of your you know, one of your signature achievements
down in this in this part of the world. I
wanted to ask you how you how you think Orcus
(01:35):
is kind of Aucust is reshaping this region, whether you
think it's a it's a hedge against a rising China,
and whether you think it can survive a Donald Trump presidency.
Speaker 2 (01:45):
So August was a wonderful but slightly serendipitously because it arose,
as everybody knows, from the failure of a defense contract
that the Australians had with the French for some submarine
and so that necessitated a talks with us about the
(02:06):
UK about the possibility of using our technology Rolls Royce
propulsion units for their summarines or helping us helping them
to build nuclear powered summarines which would be quieter and
more more efficient. And the difficulty was that although we
split the atom with the help of the New Zealander,
(02:28):
by the way, of course we we.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
Didn't. We had we share the technology with Washington.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
So going right the way back to tube lines in
the nineteen forties, and and so we had to we
had to talk to Joe Biden about whether this would work.
And it was out of that really that aucust was
was was born, and it was a Australia UK US
(02:56):
Defense Pact and it's gone way beyond bearing nuclear technology.
It's now a you know, a full fledged technological defensive
alliance between partners whose trust in each other is so
deep and so intimate that they're prepared to share them
the most sensitive aspects of of nuclear technology. And yes,
(03:21):
it's true that when it happened there was a lot
of anxiety in Beijing and you know, we a lot
of push back, but it's not meant to be adversarial, certainly,
not inimical towards anybody. It's it's supposed to. It's yeah,
like it's about strengthening our alliance and there's no reason
(03:42):
why New Zealand shouldn't be involved as well as well
as well, like you know, I can see, but it's
it's look, I think eventually it is going to make
a difference in the in the in the in the Pacific,
no doubt about it. But but I hope one that
will be in favor of stability and cooperation.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Can I ask you about that the New Zealand is
weighing up whether it joins Pillar two, the non submarine
part of it. What do you think of that? Do
you think do you think there's a role for New
Zealand Do you think?
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Well, I mean, I think so, As I said so,
I think, of course there's a role for New Zealands
are very very significant player in five Eyes with us.
New Zealand is like minded with with with the UK
on many key issues, not in at least Ukraine for instance,
where New Zealand's played a very distinguished role. So of
course I think there's a there's a there's a there's
(04:32):
an obvious fit. But you know, I would stress that
none of this needs to be seen as being any
way adversarials, let alone hostile to to Beijing. And you know,
I appreciate that a lot of New Zealand's traders with
China well so frankly as ours, you know, and quite
right too. And that's that's that's life and it's no
(04:53):
bad thing. But you can you can do both.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
Do you I mean, do you see New Zealand obviously
is a nuclear policy, that is that is a nuclear
propulsion into nuclear anything. Do you do you think as
the world moves on, those rules should perhaps be relates
to allow nuclear submarines to dock in New Zealand ports
to sort of improve orcust in some way.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Look that this is obviously strictly a man for New Zealand,
and you know, I would very much hesitate as a
as a you know, a UK next politician, next pub
prime minister, I'd very much hesitate to offer advice to
New Zealand about about something like like nuclear What I
would say is that it works well for I do
think that the propulsion units in the submarines are very good.
(05:40):
I think that you're making no, you're making no, You're
not in any way crossing the boundary of becoming a
becoming a you know, using nuclear technology for aggressive purposes
if you, if you, if you use the nuclear nuclear
propulsion units. But I also think that nuclear power, nuclear
(06:01):
generators are increasingly valuable. And I think one of the
one of the crises that we face in the in
the world at the moment is, and it may be
an issue in New Zealand as much as it is
in my country, is the absurd cost of energy. And
you know, we've I think when you look at what
we've done in the West, we we've we've stuffed up
our energy policies right left and center, and we we
(06:24):
haven't built enough base load new nuclear and we've we've
we've got a lot of renewables, but but the price
has been too variable.
Speaker 3 (06:34):
And you know, we're in trouble.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
And if you have if you have one single cause
for the economic problems we face inflations on the lack
of competitiveness in sum our industries, it is definitely our
energy policy and nuclear nuclear plays a role in that
we've got We've got I would go for more nuclear.
Speaker 1 (06:52):
You're you've got to be meeting with Winston Peters. I
think he's coming to your your long lunch. That's a
general kept a long lunch with Boris Johnson's the name.
It's by Duco of the incidents. It's actually sold out.
You'll be pleased to know our foreign minister when St.
Peter's is going to be is going to be there.
I think he must be winging us his way back
from Europe. He's over there at the moment. You mean
(07:12):
you've met him before. I think when you were Foreign
minister as well.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
And then well and then well, absolutely, he's quite a
character and uh, well I look forward to see him again.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Can I can I ask you what if you would
you would you offer him any advice on dealing with
his new his new counterpartner in the UK, David David
Lemmy and this this new labor government, first labor government there.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
And sometimes I think that I think that you know.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
The facts of the UK New Zealand relationship. Uh, they
speak for themselves. It's a it's a it's a historical
and very important friendship. And I think that that will
be the case whoever's in whoever's in government in the
U k.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
I think he'll find I'm sure he'll find David Labby,
a very congenial, congenial guy. I don't I don't don't
agree with David about everything, of course not, but he's
a very friendly guy.
Speaker 1 (08:11):
How far back to you? And do you and mister Peters.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Go, Well, I'm just trying to think.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I mean, he's always been a believer in you and
as a long time believer in.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah, well so, I mean I I met him, I
must have been, you know when I first became foreign.
I mean he was right back there at twenty sixteen
or so. I think I think we met and I
came out on it. But and you're you're absolutely right
that in those days, you know, we had there weren't
many global supporters of this historic initiative because everybody, you know,
(08:43):
the foreign policy establishment was thought, you know, stick with
what you know, and there was always an anxiety about change.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
But Winston was right behind it.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
And and and and it must be said donald Trump
were two notable supporters.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
And that was why there's going to be my nixt quick.
You know, you've you've you've had a successful relationship with
Donald Trump. He does he does amuse the international sort
of foreign afairs establishment. What's your sort of what's your
advice to any any you know, world leader or or
foreign foreign minister and dealing with Donald Trump and a
Trump administration.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I'm sure Winston will have spotted this is the point
that it's not what he says, it's what he does
when he when you look at what he actually does
from the point of view of liberal internationalism, uh, you know,
which I.
Speaker 3 (09:29):
Basically happen to believe in.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
He's he's very very sunned and he was much tougher,
you could say, with the Russians over over Ukraine than
the previous Democrat administration.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
He gave that.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
He gave the Ukrainians javelin missiles, tough over over over
crime here. I mean, you know, don't understand. When it
came to Syria, he was much tougher than the than
Obama had beaten. He actually, i mean bombed the bomb
the hell out of as Sad Basis after he used
(10:02):
chemical weapons against his own people, and a Sad never
did it again, right, So remember twenty thirteen, a Sad
use chemical weapons and it was a terrible thing in
the West, was humiliated when he did it in the rain.
In the administration under Trump, boom boom, lots of Syrian
planes suddenly blown the smotherings.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
He didn't do it again.
Speaker 2 (10:20):
So look, I mean, assuming on the Iran file, you know,
you could argue that Trump was really tough and effective.
So look, yeah, it's true he says a lot of
stuff about global warming that makes liberal internationalists kind of
free kiot. But on the other hand, he's got Elon Musk.
He's probably done more to decarbonize motor vehicles than anybody else.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
So let's see, let's see what happens.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
You're obviously you're a Prime minister. When negotiations concluded on
the New Zealand UK FDA, the best FTA, I think
New Zealand's if a sign, I think it's the highest
standard to this to this day. Where do you think
is Niecks for the relationship, the New Zealand UK relationship.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
Then if I think, I think it's, I think we've
I think we've been talking about it already at Tomas.
I think I think it's sort of we're in the territory.
I think it's it's where you know, look, we're already
very very closely allied on five Eyes and all that.
But where do we get is that is there more
to explore on the on the strategic the technology side,
the military side, and in the in the in the
(11:29):
sort of Walkers space. I think that's probably where it
where it could go. But but that's up to New Zealand,
you know, and and and there's there's you know, I
think everybody fully respects that.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
You know, you've got a lot, you've got a lot
of fish to fry.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
That There's been a fringe, a fringe campaign, a middle
a fringe campaign that's been talking about Canada New Zealand,
Australia UK liberalizing migration rules. What do you think of that,
a free free movement between between the.
Speaker 2 (11:59):
I think I proposed that once when I was Mayor
of London. I think I did, and I think the
problem is that it slightly goes against the the my
idea of taking back control of your borders. I think
I think it's Look what I think is is certainly
I think like in the I think in the f
t A that we did, there's there's some good chapters
(12:21):
about about Mode four or whatever we call it, you know,
about pree movement from free movement of people and so on,
and that's that's probably the.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Way to do it.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
I just wanted to ask to finishment really with a
few domestic domestic things. You might have said, have you
seen the haka that's been going around the Parliament New
Zealand Palace?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Was wonderful? Yeah, I enjoyed that. Yeah, I wasn't quite
sure of its significance.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
But yeah, there's been there's been sort of controversial here
because there's been an attempt by the Speaker to discuss
whether or not punishment should be imposed on similar occurrences
in the future. I mean, what do you what do
you think of of of doing a hacker in parliament
and whether.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Or not that I think I think keeper, Look, I
mean it's up to it's up to your parliament to
decide how they wish to proceed, you know, in our
in our parliament, I think you know that if you
want to clear the public gallery, you put a hat
on and say I spy strangers. And you know they're
(13:39):
strange rituals and procedures, some of which are allowed, some
which are not, which are not are not allowed. If
if a hacker is thought to be a you know,
if everyone wants to break off for a while and
do a hacker, then then you know, that's up for
up to parliament to decide.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
You know, we have we have we have prayers. Did
you have prayers in your We have prayers. Yeah, with
a prayer, we have that sort of ritual. We we
pray for the for the for the king. We pray,
you know, all sorts of things. You know, it's up
(14:18):
to parliament to decide what what what kind of I.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Mentioned there are instances when anyone would wants to a
harper in parliament sort of if the mood takes you
it's I can I mentione. Even even in the UK
there might be instantly.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
I think, you know, but again you know you'd have
to it's very much for Parliament to settle the the
what what the types of behavior and that everybody wants to.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Follow the last and the last new deal in Prime Minister,
you met was just under a doo and I was,
I was on the trip. I was, I went to
Downing Street. It was just a couple of days before
before things started to not go so well for your
your premiership was it was it sort of busy, somewhat
distracting time. It was July twenty twenty two. It's not
(15:04):
a not a great period.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
It really.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
Before it was about two days before all of.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
The Really I do dimly remember that. Yes, there's a
little bit of a blur now.
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yes, no, we look, I mean I had a very
good raceship with just with with Ja Cinda and you
know she she she knew down the street. Well of
course she'd actually worked in down the street before and
and so so you know, there was there was plenty
plenty to talk about.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
I do remember that.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yes, I think we had we had a we had
a proper we had a proper a proper session. Yeah,
but it was. It was a thoroughly productive meeting.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
None of that.
Speaker 1 (15:45):
There was a I'm sorry to bring up some some controversies,
but back home there was a controversy involving just under
doing yourself because in twenty twelve, when you were when
you were being discussed as a possible candidate for PM,
she weed, are people really discussing Boris Johnson as possible
candidate for p And when I lived in London and
(16:05):
you were mere he was known as the gaff man?
Did they ever? Did they ever make it to you?
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Look, I don't remember, to be perfectly honest, but I think,
I think on subject of gas, gaffs are very useful,
very important gas gas. You've got to make a lot
of gas because they illuminate the truth, you know, humanize
well I don't know about that, but but but we
see when you make a gap, you say something that
everybody finds unacceptable. But the important thing is that everybody
(16:37):
has to the next thing they have to do is
try and work out why they find it unacceptable. And
it is actually very very helpful in making progress in
difficult on difficult subjects.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Sandra doing wasn't actually the gifts, didn't she you know,
she she wasn't. Wasn't her thing.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
And she she's not a big gaster. She was not.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
She was big on lockdown a lot. I remember she
ran a very tight ship when it came to COVID.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
And did you remember Look at it's very different to you,
I suppose, but you had a lot. You came late
to lockdowns, but then the winter with a.
Speaker 2 (17:11):
Lot pretty much we were pretty much with the European
pack on lockdowns. But but you know, honestly, looking back,
I think if you.
Speaker 1 (17:18):
Had a lot of the new COVID model and think
maybe that would have been a better option.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Well, I can't remember what it was. I think it was.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
I think I think the trouble was it was like
we I think, you know, full credit to New Zealand
for for doing some some great stuff with with with COVID,
and you know, when I'm sure whatever whatever whatever you
did did was very worked. I mean, but I think
that when I look back at what we had to do,
I worry that that we haven't properly calculated the benefits
(17:46):
of the of the non the non pharmaceutical interventions of
the lockdowns by comparison with the damage, the loss of
education and so on. And you know, it's not it's
not clear how much to the lockdown's actually bent those curves,
because if you look at the disease, it's it's a
Bactrian camel around the world.
Speaker 3 (18:07):
It's two humps, and that's.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
Something that's that's still you know, your you're contemplating. So
I mean, the whole world is sort of wondering whether
they went too hard one way and you went too
much like that.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Well, it's all in I should have mentioned this earlier.
It's all in my book Unleashed, which you will find
readily available all good bookshops, at bookshops in New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
It's all there, is all there.
Speaker 1 (18:34):
And can you want to volge, to vulge some of
the thinking that you that you have just as well?
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Look, I think I genuinely don't.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Honestly, I think that looking back, I think that there
was now there was a sort of performer development in
the on of it. And I think that frightened people
confronted with a disease for which there is no known cure,
require society m hm to do things, even in a
ritualistic way that express some sort of control of that disease,
(19:09):
and that was that was why the rules developed in
the way that in the sort of quasi.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Biblical way that they did.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
And it's a it was about taking back control from
that and I think and that's a that's a very
important point about human psychology. Control is control is the
most important thing. Like you know, why why why why
are automatic vehicles you know so stubbornly refusing to take
(19:40):
off as a as a commercial proposition? Is because people
want to be in charge. Why do why do women
buy such prodigious quantities of face cream even though it
doesn't work and it's extremely expensive. It's because they want
the feeling of control. They want the feeling that in
the face of this natural process h wrinkling in the
(20:06):
New Zealer so which they can't control, they want to
do something and they want to feel that. They want
to feel agency. And it's the same for virtually everything wrong.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
It well, mister Johnson, thank you for your for your time,
thanks for joining and say travels to New Zealand and
I hope.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
You for to see you. Thank you very much. It
was on the tiles even Stillson's our producer.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
You can find us on iHeart radio where if you
get your podcasts and you.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
Know, leave us a nice rating and review. Please and
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