November 14, 2024 • 27 mins
Thomas is back from the US covering the election, which former President Donald Trump won in a landslide over Democratic Vice President Kamala Harris.
Also there was former Labour MP Naisi Chen, who was campaigning on the ground for the Democrats side. She joins Thomas to discuss what she saw and heard from voters, the factors that led to Trump winning, and what New Zealand politicians can learn.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to on the titles for the New
Zealand Heralds Politics podcast, I'm your host Politically e At
Thomas Coglin. I'm currently at home sick, which is why
I sound funny that thanks for being with us. I've
got a great guest today. You might have noticed that
I was away for a couple of weeks in the
United States covering the U S election. And while I
was over there, I caught up with former labor in
(00:25):
p Nation Chin who was also over there, and made
me a very nice curry for dinner one night, I
think two or three nights of the election, which I'm
very grateful for because I wasn't having a very good
phone over there. Nacie, thank you very much for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It's great to be here with you, Thomas, and it's
great to see another key. We was in America.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yes, yes, quite, it's yes, it was very I found
it very yet it was well it's different. Let's get
let's let's let's why we start off off with it.
So you were tell me what you were you were
doing over there? You were over there quite a while,
jaw knocking and campaigning for the Democrats.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, so I ended up spending five weeks in total
in the States and mainly in Philadelphia and Pennsylvania as
being the biggest wing state and one of the most
important cities for the election. And so yes, I was
volunteering for Democrats in particular, I mean the campaign at
large and the PA Dems what they call the kind
of the major campaign, but also in particularly that what
(01:17):
they call the AAPI, so that the Asian African and
empsode Island that the team in particular, and so that's
how you got to meet a lot of very boisterous
I guess Asian Democratic woman in my households who heused
me and fed me. And so we were part of
a team for the at least for the last two
(01:38):
weeks and lived with each other and worked on the
campaign every day.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Well, they were, they were there, they were they were lovely,
they was they were quite you know, it's a very
passionate about the cause, I suppose would be how I
put it.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, So there were women from all across America, which
I've found, and that was the case in Pennsylvania. Every
single day I got to meet people from different states.
So we had people from Washington, d C. Obviously, New
York has been the close ones, but even people who
were from like California, Chicago, flying in from all over
the place.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah, because I suppose it's that classic thing where you
know a lot of the volunteers coming from all over
the country, but obviously the only place is there are
only sort of seven states that matter. So if you
really want to volunteer your time for the campaign, they
make sure that you're somewhere where your efforts are going
to count exactly. So what were you what were you hearing?
You know, I was there for a less time than you,
(02:33):
but you know, all the policy that was going to
be close, and I think Pennsylvania is really close still
basically got all the voats canon down and it's it's
really tight. But and it felt like that on the
ground to me. What were people What were people telling
you as you were out out kind of canvas set.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I think a lot of people. My first cameras thing
I remember was being in Chinatown and this kind of
social housing complex we were door knocking in and it
wasn't all Chinese, about the percent Chinese and then you know,
seventy percent rest and so we had Latinos, African Americans,
white Americans and all that. And I think I remember
(03:11):
the first door I knocked open was this forty year
old male African American person and he was I would say, hey,
we're from the Democrats, you know, Harris's team, all that
kind of stuff, and he just didn't care. Like we
were like, have you made up your mind about the election?
Have you you know, have you made a plan to vote?
And he just didn't care. And I think that was
(03:33):
kind of one of my tall tale signs, kind of
my canary in terms of kind of the vibe of
the election, was that Harris in particular, but the election
at large, was not exciting enough to generate those who
were more kind of fringe, who weren't exactly watching politics
every single day, being really excited so very closely watching
(03:53):
the elections. They weren't excited enough to come out to
vote and to care about whose policy was what and so.
And I also the same door knock, kind of all
the issues they were talking to me about on the
doorsteps weren't the issues that were kind of the heart,
like the top lines in the campaign and in the
materials we were given. So obviously Harris had run a
(04:16):
campaign on things like abortion, things like on democracy and fairness, integrity,
but that wasn't the things people cared about. Like I
had one lady talking to me about student debt, another
one talking to me about health care, another one talking
to me about like roads and infrastructure. And so I
just think, one, Americans are probably very diverse and the
(04:37):
things they care about very diverse. But I just don't
think the Harris campaign, the Democratic campaign had their fingers
on the pulse.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yes. I actually had a similar reflection that you have
some incredible you were to watch some TV, like just
turn on the TV at night, and you know, it's
an experience unlike anything I've ever had, like the breaks
of which there are quite a few in American television,
and you get about one or two minutes of back
(05:06):
to back political ads. There's like there's it's that there's
there are no ads almost for anything else apart from
apart from politics, and the Harris ads were the Harris
ads were primarily focused on abortion rights. I think Pennsylvania
has it was it's sort of middle state in terms
of access to abortion. I was looking at a ranking,
(05:27):
so it's you know, it's not great average by American standards,
and then and then uh. And then the other one was,
as you say, democracy and and those are the sort
of issues that Harris was hammering home. And then you'd
go up just on the street, vox popping people asking
them to give you their views, and and no one
really liked Donald Trump. No one thought he was people
(05:50):
did not think he would be a particularly good kind
of good person and potentially not a good leader for
the country. But they were wanting something a bit more
material on offer, I think, and Harris's campaign was just
was was trying to frighten people out of what if
the Trump, which you know, he is quite a frightening
you know, it's a logical argument to make that promise.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yes, And I was talking to this taxi driver who
came over from Russia, and he was talking to me
about how like he couldn't trust Harris, which is, like
you said, they might not like Trump, but they don't
know what Harris stands for. And it's so funny that
every time that gets mentioned to me, and I've heard
it multiple times as well, it's always a fracking issue.
It was one of the most minor issues in the
(06:36):
whole election, but just because she had changed her stance
on fracking, and obviously she's done her explanation. I think
it came out in the presidential debate and everything, but
people still use that as that example they point to
and go, we don't know what she stands for. So
obviously by the end, I think in the last two
or three weeks, they only did two ads, and one
(06:56):
of them was her like biographic ad telling people who
she was, what her background was, and all that kind
of stuff. But I think they never sold Kamala Harris
as a person to the American public.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yes, yeah, that's that's that is interesting that way, and
it's quite an American thing as well. I suppose, in
like a parliamentary system, if there's an issue on which
on which you've you tuned, I mean like everyone has
usually you tuned on that. You know, let's parties changed
their positions all the time. And but but if you're
running as the leader of that party, well, you know
you're running against a caucus of people who who have
(07:31):
had the same position as you because you've all had
to swim together. Whereas opposing the presidential system, we we
you know you have to. I mean, Harris, I suppose,
like many Democrats, has had to fight, has had to
fight primary races where in a period where the Democrats
were pivoting to the left and had to then she
had to go left. Then obviously in government she kind
of had to tack right to the center and then
(07:53):
and she had to do that so extremely that yeah,
you're right, people are left with the sense that people
don't know what she stands for. And and yes, quite yes,
quite something. Do you the other the other issue that
I was seeing on on the 's tech as well,
there's a there's a high profile Senate race which I
(08:14):
think it's it's looks, I mean, some of it hasn't
been called by all the networks yet still quite tight
web casing the incumbent and the he was being attached
Harris also being attacked on the transgender right to record?
What were you getting any of that from people on
the doorstep that the Democrats have moved but too far
(08:36):
ahead of the public on transgender issues.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
So one of the incidents, I would put that in
probably one of my more uncomfortable experiences on the campaign trails,
and I've had probably on say three or four was
actually so we were in Chinatown on the you know,
the Philadelphia has this amazing Timetown by the way, and
then campaignings try and save it from the Sixers. So
the Sixers have got some wealthy investors and they want
(08:59):
to build a stadium because it's so close to City Center,
a basketball stadium, and so they want to build it
in the middle of Chinatown. So that was actually one
of my side campaigns that I was helping on, which
is to try and save Chinatown. But anyway, we were
standing there in front of this mornumental kind of gate
and then we had Senator Judy Chu who is there,
(09:20):
sorry not Senator Secretary Judy Chou, who was their acting
Secretary of Labor under the Biden administration, so a Taiwanese American.
And then so we wanted to do this big group
photo as before we went out to Canvas, and so
Judy and this lovely lady who is Boolong and she's
this kind of real kind of matriarch of the Democratic Asians.
(09:41):
I guess if you put it that was she's the
chair of their caucus. Like tiny, tiny little woman, so
I would probably say like one fifty yeah, and centimeters
tall and and like, and so she was standing there
and then wearing you know, all all our garb and
then this Chinese lady came up to us and just
said to us, you Democrats are gonna you know, you're
(10:03):
sterilizing all our children, You're turning them into In Chinese,
it's basically like not a woman, not a man. It's
a very derogatory term for nampul new you know, you're
you're you're gonna like ruin our whole entire future. And
so that was one of the incidents. So there will
be single issue voters. I probably like Elon Musk who
kind of got involved in the Trump campaign because they
(10:27):
were so anti trans and obviously there's a lot of
scare mongering, a lot of misinformation, Like I think people
are telling me in America only probably eight people ended
up getting kind of so called state sponsored you know surgery,
and so so yes, it is. It was a big issue,
and especially particularly I think for groups of people like
(10:49):
the Christian conservatives those obviously a huge population that would
lean that way, and Asians because we're very socially conservatives
as well.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
It seems like it was it was just this your
volume of the number of times that came up in
ads and and you you know, you'd find you'd find
people like Bob Casey, for example. I think I had
had a couple of votes on his report where he
taken a pro trans rights position and they were sort
of using that to tie him to to Carmla Harris
and her you know, her pro trans rights position. It's
(11:19):
it's and it's interesting in New Zealand. It's sort of
a dog that never barks. I think, you know, New
Zealand First has taken a fairly conservative position on it.
They're the only party in Parliament that's really done that.
And it hasn't really it's head that doesn't seem to
be what's driving New Zealand First support and all the
other parties in Parliament. You know, we had that self
(11:40):
idea legislation and and and and that that that got
through with you broad broad support. It's just despite the
fact that you know, i'd be interesting to see on
the public I haven't seen public polling on it. But
it's sort of in New Zealand politics, it seems like
that's not really it hasn't. It hasn't kind of yeah,
just it just hasn't sort of appeared in the way
that it has done in America. But you know, who knows. Why.
(12:03):
What do you think about the Trump campaign and what
they were, what they were doing on the ground, I mean,
were they did you get the sense he had much
less money than Harris? But did you get the sense
that they were better organized or had better issues or
what was what were they like.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
On the ground? They were barely visible. I mean they
probably already surprised me when I went to So we
were doing what we call early voting pole watching, pole observing,
and so basically we stand a certain distance outside of
polling place to make sure that the other team doesn't
do anything illegal and lo and behole. Of course they were,
(12:39):
and so we were calling you know, voter protection and
including the police came around as well, and it is
like they were escorting people into the voting booth and
obviously they sent me to a place that was mainly
Mandarin speaking voters. And then so they were escorting people
who couldn't speak English well and saying we'll vote for
(13:01):
you because the the translator in size. So they haven't
you know, state appointed you know person as as a translator,
and they were saying that person is a Democratic plant.
So you don't want to you don't want to give
your ballot paper to that person to translate for you,
bring it outside and will tick the boxes for you.
(13:21):
And then we heard rumors. Obviously I didn't, this is
not something I saw with my own eyes, but we're
hearing rumors that people were being added into a we
Chat group to be given money, red packets on on
we Chat and all that kind of stuff, and so
so some wild behavior. And they were all over the
parking lot that we were in, you know, waving big flags.
(13:43):
And then every person that walked in, including myself when
I first got out of my car, saying, you know,
have you voted. And then the leading issue that they
were kind of talking to people with on that day
was illegal migrants low and behold, and and it was
just and they was saying, you know, all the legal
migrants are coming over through the borders under Harrison Biden,
despite you know, we know for a fact that numerically
(14:05):
there was more that came under Trump. They're saying that
that's why our country has become so unsafe. And I
would say, despite you know, gun violence and all the
other issues. And then the irony. The moment of irony
came when a Chinese man walked past, and they said,
have you voted, have you decided who you're going to
vote for? And he looked at me and he said,
I'm illegal right now. And what in Chinese we call
(14:26):
like I'm blacked out here And you should have seen
the face. Yeah, I think that's the wise. You always think,
you know, other people are the legal migrant, especially in
a migrant community, and just that kind of pulling up
the ladder behind you mentality. And the Trump campaign is
alive and wow, yeah, so you do see them on
(14:46):
the ground and on election day there was lots of
people campaigning outside the voting booths and all that kind
of stuff. But you know, the right across the world,
as as in America has never played a big ground game,
and so their big this kind of thing was online online,
like you said, like the ads, horrific scenes of you know,
(15:07):
children being killed to abortion issue and like you know,
like concentration camp looking kind of pictures of you know,
a so called illegal migrants waiting outside the border, all
that kind of stuff, but also just their social media presence.
So on the day of the election, I don't know
if you noticed, Thomas, but on x Tota there was
an ongoing Elon Musk's stream like a voice stream at
(15:32):
the top of like the top bar, and if you
clicked and know it was just Elon and other kind
of ko ours social media influences. Yeah, just just chatting
away and telling you to vote Trump, like it was
permanently on the top of that bar the whole entire
day of on election day, and just then being able
to so called hack the algorithm, being able to feed
disinformation down people's throats. They really had the narrative. They
(15:57):
had command of the narrative even with traditional media. You know,
I think back to all the key moments in this
particular election campaign. Those were all Trump moments if you
think too. I mean from the very beginning him being
shot at his you know, racing his fist all the
way to McDonald's to elong, you know, jumping up and
down behind him. There was so many kind of one
(16:18):
of those classical moments. I think I'll be old by
name to think back to him and go, oh, what
a campaign it was in twenty twenty four, But those
were those were all Trump moments.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah, yeah, we're just going to take a quick break
and then we'll be right back. Who well, back on
the titles. I'm with former Labor m P and Asy Chimp,
who is on the ground in Pennsylvania as part of
(16:49):
the Harris campaign for the US presidential election. I was wondering,
you know, having had this experience, what what you take
you know, what what what what? What would you take
away from it as a lesson for you know, a
New Zealand campaign are very very different, I mean, immercifully short.
I think we were discussing this over dinner with our
(17:11):
mercifully short our campaigns. I don't think I don't think
it's good for the national psyche to have these years
long campaigns. But what what what would you do? What
would you what would the lessons you would learn you
would bring with you? Oh?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah, no, thankfully it is short because I literally I
had one of my flatmates who have now pulled out
of going to a family Thanksgiving because she was on
a phone call with her sister in law and they
told her they were voting Trump.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
So anyway, you.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, So I think thinking about this a lot, and
one of probably I think that the warnings I think
we could really adhered to would be that social media presence.
I think, you know, obviously TikTok became a real big
platform even during the New Zealand twenty twenty three elections.
And but the whole thing of being able to control
(18:01):
the algorithm, control social media platforms and getting you know,
big mongrels like like elong musks to stand behind you,
to be able to manipulate kind of some of the
tech and some of these things, that is still and
will be something I think New Zealds should really be
aware of. And this time we had Russian bots as
well in the American elections, spreading what I would say
(18:23):
misinformation online.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
And there's been some reporting in the in the mainstream
media and the US that it looked like Republican leaning
posts on X were getting bumped up the algorithm and
and Harris leading posts were not absolutely no technical expertise.
So that's that's just what people have been able to
sort of seen. I'm not sure whether how much rutherrou
(18:47):
is to it, but but certainly you know, yeah, well
we'll see.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Even on just not even X and you know, even
on Chinese social media. So I've been posting obviously a
lot of my you know, comments and Chinese amandarin on
we Chat, which is you know, the Chinese kind of
at every Chinese users for messaging, but there's a short
video platform there as well, And so those I would say,
I was doing a very objective analysis, and so those
(19:13):
that kind of I said, you know, it looks like
Trump will when all like analyzing the Republicans kind of
campaign and their policies, those would get you know, forty
two thousand views. I think my top one got about
probably a little bit more than that, fifty thousand views.
And one of my very kind of this is what
Harris is doing, kind of defending her videos, got one
(19:35):
hundred and forty one views. That's that's how direct and obvious.
Where the you know, where the flow is coming from
and where it's going.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yeah, it's it's something. It's I think I think, you know,
the last Labor government was looking at some algorithm openness.
James Shaw I think was looking at it. I forget,
I honestly remember where where it got to. But it
certainly it's it's it's obviously it's a it's the secret
source of your app, so you don't necessarily want to
(20:06):
open it up to everyone. But at the same time,
when these when it's when it has this, when it
has such great power and in a situation like that,
just sort of some transparency. Well you can see that
beneaf some transparency and and I mean interesting in terms
of like I suppose what what what would call like
issue salience. I mean, it's it's it's I'm not sure
(20:31):
whether you agree with this, but my my kind of
takeaway coming home is just that importance of of being
forward looking and promising people stuff, promising you know some
I mean that the old you know, Norm Kirk kind
of thing. It's something to hope for. I think it
just the fear of fear. Scare campaigns. Scare politics is
(20:55):
always I mean, it definitely has its place, and it's
it is often really really effective. So I don't want
to deny the fact that warning people about something that
you think is bad as actually there's definitely a place
lat in politics and it does work. But at some
point on that campaign, you could just have you just
got the sense that the Harris team were just not
promising people of future that they particular or any kind
(21:19):
of future, just the future of them, not Trump. That's
all that seems. It seemed to be operaing people.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Oh, I absolutely agree, and I think it's just the
time and the place of the world right now, no
one is living very very well. I was listening to
I Think maybe the Rest is Politics or one of
those political podcasts, and one of the guests on that
podcast was saying, you know, in the last you know,
ten to fifteen years the world that at large people's lives,
(21:48):
quality of life has actually been diminishing. And generally speaking,
most democratic governments across especially kind of the western side
of the world, have not been delivering for them people.
And I completely agree, like in terms of like you know,
if you see look at the UK, you know, the
NHS has gone downhill, you know, people getting poorer. I
was looking at you know, house prices have risen I
(22:10):
think four hundred times, and wages only I think one
hundred and something. So our life, quality of life is
diminishing under these governments, and so so to be able
to actually promise people something that changes their lives to
the better, that this policy that can see tangible benefits
to themselves, that's actually a really big challenge for modern
(22:34):
day politics. And I just don't think either party, but
you know, obviously I think this time Trump won by
being able to being able to pinpoint or blame a
particular a particular sign or a particular reason like such
as illegal migrants or trans people whatever, and say they
(22:57):
are the course of your pain, so let's get rid
of that. And so they were, they were very clever
at being able to build this whole entire narrative of
turning around the reason for your pain is this, and
so I'm going to do that, even though obviously no,
you know, no expert or you know, a person in
their right mind would believe that. But that's how they've
managed to win. And like you know, we always go
(23:19):
back to it's always the economy, stupid, right, Like, it's
about the cost of living, and that was the single
biggest issue in America, and I think across the world
everyone still votes, you know, out of their pocket, and
I so I think being able to address the cost
of living and the Trump administration, the Trump campaign being
I still remember one of the flyers I picked up
(23:39):
was inflation rate during the Trump administration versus inflation rate
during the Biden administration. And obviously we all know that
that was a post you know, pre pandemic, so there's
actually no comparative value and we know what's coming down.
The interest rate has come down from American banks, but
no one cares because they want They want to Like
you said, they're.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Voting for hope.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
They're voting for the fact that if we changed an administration,
we changed parties, the inflation will drop even further. They
want to vote. They want to be able to vote
for that hope, even if that hope is untangible and tangible,
even if that hope wasn't even properly expressed to them.
They will project their hope onto someone if you build
(24:19):
the right image. And that's also something I keep hearing
from my Chinese community as well, is that Trump is
a businessman. He should be able to run the economy really,
really well. And we hear that narrative over and over
again even in New Zealand. Right if we have a
businessman running the country, our economy should be better. And
they were saying, well, therefore, you know the world, and
I'm like, but how would that even help you living
(24:42):
in China or New Zealand When he's going to throw
you know, trade tarists on on his you know, on
his whole entire agenda, and so once you start to
impact that, obviously there's no logic but people want to
believe in it image. And ye know, once you say that,
like you said that hope, that sense of hope.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
But very interesting as well as you know, his majority
is obviously you know, it looks like he will win
the popular vote. There still counting in California. Somehow takes
rereove account all these works in California. But you know,
apart from Arizona, most of those majorities in the swing
states were really tight, just a couple of points in
most of them. So it's not considering the amount of
(25:19):
change that he has run on a really fundamental rethinking
of the American economy. Massive tariffs on on China, and
then then what massive massive tariffs on China and massive
tariffs on everyone else as well. And then there's these
these cuts that Elon Musk and Vivit Ramaswami are going
to be doing it at this Doge entity, the massive,
(25:41):
massive cuts, and you'd have to think, well, the tariffs,
there's a they will be inflationary. There's a good chance
that'll be watered down. These cuts. You know, Elon Musk
is talking about trillions of dollars of cuts. You don't
cut that amount of money from a government without it
hurting people, hurting voters, and and so you look at
those tiny majorities in those swing states and think, at
(26:04):
a certain point, I mean, obviously he's not time running
for reelection in four years time, but but at a
student point, you would think that that if if the
terriff inflation, and if those cuts start to cut to
programs people like, then then his popularity and and and
the polling and those swing states with whoever whoever runs
is a Republican next time, you know, it's going to
(26:26):
be it'll be difficult, like it's it's it's it could
it could get quite ugly quite fast. Yep.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Absolutely, But I don't think one. I don't think Donald
Trump would ever care about that. You know, he will
have no no, just like abortion. You know, I had
this friend tell me, you know, I think Donald Trump
ever thought about you know, if you were pregnant with
a baby that your doctor tells you that you can't
carry the full term, and if you don't get abortion
right now, you know it's it's a health care risk.
(26:55):
It's a health risk. I just don't think he would
ever be able to understand. And all think that far
and it's always a one liner from him right, So yeah,
I don't think he's thinking about that.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Well, I said, look that is we've just hit our
time time time threshol. Thank you so much for joining
us and enjoy your your your your travels and hopefully
see you back in New Zealand sometimes.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
So thank you, Thomas, thank you, have a good day
you too.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
That was on the tiles Ethan Stills as our producer.
You can find us on iHeartRadio where if you get
your podcasts and you know, leave us a nice rating
and review, please a subscribe. Yeah,
Hello, and welcome to on the titles for the New
Zealand Heralds Politics podcast, I'm your host Politically e At
Thomas Coglin. I'm currently at home sick, which is why
I sound funny that thanks for being with us. I've
got a great guest today. You might have noticed that
I was away for a couple of weeks in the
United States covering the U S election. And while I
was over there, I caught up with former labor in
(00:25):
p Nation Chin who was also over there, and made
me a very nice curry for dinner one night, I
think two or three nights of the election, which I'm
very grateful for because I wasn't having a very good
phone over there. Nacie, thank you very much for joining us.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
It's great to be here with you, Thomas, and it's
great to see another key. We was in America.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Yes, yes, quite, it's yes, it was very I found
it very yet it was well it's different. Let's get
let's let's let's why we start off off with it.
So you were tell me what you were you were
doing over there? You were over there quite a while,
jaw knocking and campaigning for the Democrats.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Yeah, so I ended up spending five weeks in total
in the States and mainly in Philadelphia and Pennsylvania as
being the biggest wing state and one of the most
important cities for the election. And so yes, I was
volunteering for Democrats in particular, I mean the campaign at
large and the PA Dems what they call the kind
of the major campaign, but also in particularly that what
(01:17):
they call the AAPI, so that the Asian African and
empsode Island that the team in particular, and so that's
how you got to meet a lot of very boisterous
I guess Asian Democratic woman in my households who heused
me and fed me. And so we were part of
a team for the at least for the last two
(01:38):
weeks and lived with each other and worked on the
campaign every day.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Well, they were, they were there, they were they were lovely,
they was they were quite you know, it's a very
passionate about the cause, I suppose would be how I
put it.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Yeah, So there were women from all across America, which
I've found, and that was the case in Pennsylvania. Every
single day I got to meet people from different states.
So we had people from Washington, d C. Obviously, New
York has been the close ones, but even people who
were from like California, Chicago, flying in from all over
the place.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Yeah, because I suppose it's that classic thing where you
know a lot of the volunteers coming from all over
the country, but obviously the only place is there are
only sort of seven states that matter. So if you
really want to volunteer your time for the campaign, they
make sure that you're somewhere where your efforts are going
to count exactly. So what were you what were you hearing?
You know, I was there for a less time than you,
(02:33):
but you know, all the policy that was going to
be close, and I think Pennsylvania is really close still
basically got all the voats canon down and it's it's
really tight. But and it felt like that on the
ground to me. What were people What were people telling
you as you were out out kind of canvas set.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
I think a lot of people. My first cameras thing
I remember was being in Chinatown and this kind of
social housing complex we were door knocking in and it
wasn't all Chinese, about the percent Chinese and then you know,
seventy percent rest and so we had Latinos, African Americans,
white Americans and all that. And I think I remember
(03:11):
the first door I knocked open was this forty year
old male African American person and he was I would say, hey,
we're from the Democrats, you know, Harris's team, all that
kind of stuff, and he just didn't care. Like we
were like, have you made up your mind about the election?
Have you you know, have you made a plan to vote?
And he just didn't care. And I think that was
(03:33):
kind of one of my tall tale signs, kind of
my canary in terms of kind of the vibe of
the election, was that Harris in particular, but the election
at large, was not exciting enough to generate those who
were more kind of fringe, who weren't exactly watching politics
every single day, being really excited so very closely watching
(03:53):
the elections. They weren't excited enough to come out to
vote and to care about whose policy was what and so.
And I also the same door knock, kind of all
the issues they were talking to me about on the
doorsteps weren't the issues that were kind of the heart,
like the top lines in the campaign and in the
materials we were given. So obviously Harris had run a
(04:16):
campaign on things like abortion, things like on democracy and fairness, integrity,
but that wasn't the things people cared about. Like I
had one lady talking to me about student debt, another
one talking to me about health care, another one talking
to me about like roads and infrastructure. And so I
just think, one, Americans are probably very diverse and the
(04:37):
things they care about very diverse. But I just don't
think the Harris campaign, the Democratic campaign had their fingers
on the pulse.
Speaker 1 (04:45):
Yes. I actually had a similar reflection that you have
some incredible you were to watch some TV, like just
turn on the TV at night, and you know, it's
an experience unlike anything I've ever had, like the breaks
of which there are quite a few in American television,
and you get about one or two minutes of back
(05:06):
to back political ads. There's like there's it's that there's
there are no ads almost for anything else apart from
apart from politics, and the Harris ads were the Harris
ads were primarily focused on abortion rights. I think Pennsylvania
has it was it's sort of middle state in terms
of access to abortion. I was looking at a ranking,
(05:27):
so it's you know, it's not great average by American standards,
and then and then uh. And then the other one was,
as you say, democracy and and those are the sort
of issues that Harris was hammering home. And then you'd
go up just on the street, vox popping people asking
them to give you their views, and and no one
really liked Donald Trump. No one thought he was people
(05:50):
did not think he would be a particularly good kind
of good person and potentially not a good leader for
the country. But they were wanting something a bit more
material on offer, I think, and Harris's campaign was just
was was trying to frighten people out of what if
the Trump, which you know, he is quite a frightening
you know, it's a logical argument to make that promise.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yes, And I was talking to this taxi driver who
came over from Russia, and he was talking to me
about how like he couldn't trust Harris, which is, like
you said, they might not like Trump, but they don't
know what Harris stands for. And it's so funny that
every time that gets mentioned to me, and I've heard
it multiple times as well, it's always a fracking issue.
It was one of the most minor issues in the
(06:36):
whole election, but just because she had changed her stance
on fracking, and obviously she's done her explanation. I think
it came out in the presidential debate and everything, but
people still use that as that example they point to
and go, we don't know what she stands for. So
obviously by the end, I think in the last two
or three weeks, they only did two ads, and one
(06:56):
of them was her like biographic ad telling people who
she was, what her background was, and all that kind
of stuff. But I think they never sold Kamala Harris
as a person to the American public.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Yes, yeah, that's that's that is interesting that way, and
it's quite an American thing as well. I suppose, in
like a parliamentary system, if there's an issue on which
on which you've you tuned, I mean like everyone has
usually you tuned on that. You know, let's parties changed
their positions all the time. And but but if you're
running as the leader of that party, well, you know
you're running against a caucus of people who who have
(07:31):
had the same position as you because you've all had
to swim together. Whereas opposing the presidential system, we we
you know you have to. I mean, Harris, I suppose,
like many Democrats, has had to fight, has had to
fight primary races where in a period where the Democrats
were pivoting to the left and had to then she
had to go left. Then obviously in government she kind
of had to tack right to the center and then
(07:53):
and she had to do that so extremely that yeah,
you're right, people are left with the sense that people
don't know what she stands for. And and yes, quite yes,
quite something. Do you the other the other issue that
I was seeing on on the 's tech as well,
there's a there's a high profile Senate race which I
(08:14):
think it's it's looks, I mean, some of it hasn't
been called by all the networks yet still quite tight
web casing the incumbent and the he was being attached
Harris also being attacked on the transgender right to record?
What were you getting any of that from people on
the doorstep that the Democrats have moved but too far
(08:36):
ahead of the public on transgender issues.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
So one of the incidents, I would put that in
probably one of my more uncomfortable experiences on the campaign trails,
and I've had probably on say three or four was
actually so we were in Chinatown on the you know,
the Philadelphia has this amazing Timetown by the way, and
then campaignings try and save it from the Sixers. So
the Sixers have got some wealthy investors and they want
(08:59):
to build a stadium because it's so close to City Center,
a basketball stadium, and so they want to build it
in the middle of Chinatown. So that was actually one
of my side campaigns that I was helping on, which
is to try and save Chinatown. But anyway, we were
standing there in front of this mornumental kind of gate
and then we had Senator Judy Chu who is there,
(09:20):
sorry not Senator Secretary Judy Chou, who was their acting
Secretary of Labor under the Biden administration, so a Taiwanese American.
And then so we wanted to do this big group
photo as before we went out to Canvas, and so
Judy and this lovely lady who is Boolong and she's
this kind of real kind of matriarch of the Democratic Asians.
(09:41):
I guess if you put it that was she's the
chair of their caucus. Like tiny, tiny little woman, so
I would probably say like one fifty yeah, and centimeters
tall and and like, and so she was standing there
and then wearing you know, all all our garb and
then this Chinese lady came up to us and just
said to us, you Democrats are gonna you know, you're
(10:03):
sterilizing all our children, You're turning them into In Chinese,
it's basically like not a woman, not a man. It's
a very derogatory term for nampul new you know, you're
you're you're gonna like ruin our whole entire future. And
so that was one of the incidents. So there will
be single issue voters. I probably like Elon Musk who
kind of got involved in the Trump campaign because they
(10:27):
were so anti trans and obviously there's a lot of
scare mongering, a lot of misinformation, Like I think people
are telling me in America only probably eight people ended
up getting kind of so called state sponsored you know surgery,
and so so yes, it is. It was a big issue,
and especially particularly I think for groups of people like
(10:49):
the Christian conservatives those obviously a huge population that would
lean that way, and Asians because we're very socially conservatives
as well.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
It seems like it was it was just this your
volume of the number of times that came up in
ads and and you you know, you'd find you'd find
people like Bob Casey, for example. I think I had
had a couple of votes on his report where he
taken a pro trans rights position and they were sort
of using that to tie him to to Carmla Harris
and her you know, her pro trans rights position. It's
(11:19):
it's and it's interesting in New Zealand. It's sort of
a dog that never barks. I think, you know, New
Zealand First has taken a fairly conservative position on it.
They're the only party in Parliament that's really done that.
And it hasn't really it's head that doesn't seem to
be what's driving New Zealand First support and all the
other parties in Parliament. You know, we had that self
(11:40):
idea legislation and and and and that that that got
through with you broad broad support. It's just despite the
fact that you know, i'd be interesting to see on
the public I haven't seen public polling on it. But
it's sort of in New Zealand politics, it seems like
that's not really it hasn't. It hasn't kind of yeah,
just it just hasn't sort of appeared in the way
that it has done in America. But you know, who knows. Why.
(12:03):
What do you think about the Trump campaign and what
they were, what they were doing on the ground, I mean,
were they did you get the sense he had much
less money than Harris? But did you get the sense
that they were better organized or had better issues or
what was what were they like.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
On the ground? They were barely visible. I mean they
probably already surprised me when I went to So we
were doing what we call early voting pole watching, pole observing,
and so basically we stand a certain distance outside of
polling place to make sure that the other team doesn't
do anything illegal and lo and behole. Of course they were,
(12:39):
and so we were calling you know, voter protection and
including the police came around as well, and it is
like they were escorting people into the voting booth and
obviously they sent me to a place that was mainly
Mandarin speaking voters. And then so they were escorting people
who couldn't speak English well and saying we'll vote for
(13:01):
you because the the translator in size. So they haven't
you know, state appointed you know person as as a translator,
and they were saying that person is a Democratic plant.
So you don't want to you don't want to give
your ballot paper to that person to translate for you,
bring it outside and will tick the boxes for you.
(13:21):
And then we heard rumors. Obviously I didn't, this is
not something I saw with my own eyes, but we're
hearing rumors that people were being added into a we
Chat group to be given money, red packets on on
we Chat and all that kind of stuff, and so
so some wild behavior. And they were all over the
parking lot that we were in, you know, waving big flags.
(13:43):
And then every person that walked in, including myself when
I first got out of my car, saying, you know,
have you voted. And then the leading issue that they
were kind of talking to people with on that day
was illegal migrants low and behold, and and it was
just and they was saying, you know, all the legal
migrants are coming over through the borders under Harrison Biden,
despite you know, we know for a fact that numerically
(14:05):
there was more that came under Trump. They're saying that
that's why our country has become so unsafe. And I
would say, despite you know, gun violence and all the
other issues. And then the irony. The moment of irony
came when a Chinese man walked past, and they said,
have you voted, have you decided who you're going to
vote for? And he looked at me and he said,
I'm illegal right now. And what in Chinese we call
(14:26):
like I'm blacked out here And you should have seen
the face. Yeah, I think that's the wise. You always think,
you know, other people are the legal migrant, especially in
a migrant community, and just that kind of pulling up
the ladder behind you mentality. And the Trump campaign is
alive and wow, yeah, so you do see them on
(14:46):
the ground and on election day there was lots of
people campaigning outside the voting booths and all that kind
of stuff. But you know, the right across the world,
as as in America has never played a big ground game,
and so their big this kind of thing was online online,
like you said, like the ads, horrific scenes of you know,
(15:07):
children being killed to abortion issue and like you know,
like concentration camp looking kind of pictures of you know,
a so called illegal migrants waiting outside the border, all
that kind of stuff, but also just their social media presence.
So on the day of the election, I don't know
if you noticed, Thomas, but on x Tota there was
an ongoing Elon Musk's stream like a voice stream at
(15:32):
the top of like the top bar, and if you
clicked and know it was just Elon and other kind
of ko ours social media influences. Yeah, just just chatting
away and telling you to vote Trump, like it was
permanently on the top of that bar the whole entire
day of on election day, and just then being able
to so called hack the algorithm, being able to feed
disinformation down people's throats. They really had the narrative. They
(15:57):
had command of the narrative even with traditional media. You know,
I think back to all the key moments in this
particular election campaign. Those were all Trump moments if you
think too. I mean from the very beginning him being
shot at his you know, racing his fist all the
way to McDonald's to elong, you know, jumping up and
down behind him. There was so many kind of one
(16:18):
of those classical moments. I think I'll be old by
name to think back to him and go, oh, what
a campaign it was in twenty twenty four, But those
were those were all Trump moments.
Speaker 1 (16:27):
Yeah, yeah, we're just going to take a quick break
and then we'll be right back. Who well, back on
the titles. I'm with former Labor m P and Asy Chimp,
who is on the ground in Pennsylvania as part of
(16:49):
the Harris campaign for the US presidential election. I was wondering,
you know, having had this experience, what what you take
you know, what what what what? What would you take
away from it as a lesson for you know, a
New Zealand campaign are very very different, I mean, immercifully short.
I think we were discussing this over dinner with our
(17:11):
mercifully short our campaigns. I don't think I don't think
it's good for the national psyche to have these years
long campaigns. But what what what would you do? What
would you what would the lessons you would learn you
would bring with you? Oh?
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Yeah, no, thankfully it is short because I literally I
had one of my flatmates who have now pulled out
of going to a family Thanksgiving because she was on
a phone call with her sister in law and they
told her they were voting Trump.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
So anyway, you.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
Yeah, So I think thinking about this a lot, and
one of probably I think that the warnings I think
we could really adhered to would be that social media presence.
I think, you know, obviously TikTok became a real big
platform even during the New Zealand twenty twenty three elections.
And but the whole thing of being able to control
(18:01):
the algorithm, control social media platforms and getting you know,
big mongrels like like elong musks to stand behind you,
to be able to manipulate kind of some of the
tech and some of these things, that is still and
will be something I think New Zealds should really be
aware of. And this time we had Russian bots as
well in the American elections, spreading what I would say
(18:23):
misinformation online.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
And there's been some reporting in the in the mainstream
media and the US that it looked like Republican leaning
posts on X were getting bumped up the algorithm and
and Harris leading posts were not absolutely no technical expertise.
So that's that's just what people have been able to
sort of seen. I'm not sure whether how much rutherrou
(18:47):
is to it, but but certainly you know, yeah, well
we'll see.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Even on just not even X and you know, even
on Chinese social media. So I've been posting obviously a
lot of my you know, comments and Chinese amandarin on
we Chat, which is you know, the Chinese kind of
at every Chinese users for messaging, but there's a short
video platform there as well, And so those I would say,
I was doing a very objective analysis, and so those
(19:13):
that kind of I said, you know, it looks like
Trump will when all like analyzing the Republicans kind of
campaign and their policies, those would get you know, forty
two thousand views. I think my top one got about
probably a little bit more than that, fifty thousand views.
And one of my very kind of this is what
Harris is doing, kind of defending her videos, got one
(19:35):
hundred and forty one views. That's that's how direct and obvious.
Where the you know, where the flow is coming from
and where it's going.
Speaker 1 (19:45):
Yeah, it's it's something. It's I think I think, you know,
the last Labor government was looking at some algorithm openness.
James Shaw I think was looking at it. I forget,
I honestly remember where where it got to. But it
certainly it's it's it's obviously it's a it's the secret
source of your app, so you don't necessarily want to
(20:06):
open it up to everyone. But at the same time,
when these when it's when it has this, when it
has such great power and in a situation like that,
just sort of some transparency. Well you can see that
beneaf some transparency and and I mean interesting in terms
of like I suppose what what what would call like
issue salience. I mean, it's it's it's I'm not sure
(20:31):
whether you agree with this, but my my kind of
takeaway coming home is just that importance of of being
forward looking and promising people stuff, promising you know some
I mean that the old you know, Norm Kirk kind
of thing. It's something to hope for. I think it
just the fear of fear. Scare campaigns. Scare politics is
(20:55):
always I mean, it definitely has its place, and it's
it is often really really effective. So I don't want
to deny the fact that warning people about something that
you think is bad as actually there's definitely a place
lat in politics and it does work. But at some
point on that campaign, you could just have you just
got the sense that the Harris team were just not
promising people of future that they particular or any kind
(21:19):
of future, just the future of them, not Trump. That's
all that seems. It seemed to be operaing people.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Oh, I absolutely agree, and I think it's just the
time and the place of the world right now, no
one is living very very well. I was listening to
I Think maybe the Rest is Politics or one of
those political podcasts, and one of the guests on that
podcast was saying, you know, in the last you know,
ten to fifteen years the world that at large people's lives,
(21:48):
quality of life has actually been diminishing. And generally speaking,
most democratic governments across especially kind of the western side
of the world, have not been delivering for them people.
And I completely agree, like in terms of like you know,
if you see look at the UK, you know, the
NHS has gone downhill, you know, people getting poorer. I
was looking at you know, house prices have risen I
(22:10):
think four hundred times, and wages only I think one
hundred and something. So our life, quality of life is
diminishing under these governments, and so so to be able
to actually promise people something that changes their lives to
the better, that this policy that can see tangible benefits
to themselves, that's actually a really big challenge for modern
(22:34):
day politics. And I just don't think either party, but
you know, obviously I think this time Trump won by
being able to being able to pinpoint or blame a
particular a particular sign or a particular reason like such
as illegal migrants or trans people whatever, and say they
(22:57):
are the course of your pain, so let's get rid
of that. And so they were, they were very clever
at being able to build this whole entire narrative of
turning around the reason for your pain is this, and
so I'm going to do that, even though obviously no,
you know, no expert or you know, a person in
their right mind would believe that. But that's how they've
managed to win. And like you know, we always go
(23:19):
back to it's always the economy, stupid, right, Like, it's
about the cost of living, and that was the single
biggest issue in America, and I think across the world
everyone still votes, you know, out of their pocket, and
I so I think being able to address the cost
of living and the Trump administration, the Trump campaign being
I still remember one of the flyers I picked up
(23:39):
was inflation rate during the Trump administration versus inflation rate
during the Biden administration. And obviously we all know that
that was a post you know, pre pandemic, so there's
actually no comparative value and we know what's coming down.
The interest rate has come down from American banks, but
no one cares because they want They want to Like
you said, they're.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
Voting for hope.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
They're voting for the fact that if we changed an administration,
we changed parties, the inflation will drop even further. They
want to vote. They want to be able to vote
for that hope, even if that hope is untangible and tangible,
even if that hope wasn't even properly expressed to them.
They will project their hope onto someone if you build
(24:19):
the right image. And that's also something I keep hearing
from my Chinese community as well, is that Trump is
a businessman. He should be able to run the economy really,
really well. And we hear that narrative over and over
again even in New Zealand. Right if we have a
businessman running the country, our economy should be better. And
they were saying, well, therefore, you know the world, and
I'm like, but how would that even help you living
(24:42):
in China or New Zealand When he's going to throw
you know, trade tarists on on his you know, on
his whole entire agenda, and so once you start to
impact that, obviously there's no logic but people want to
believe in it image. And ye know, once you say that,
like you said that hope, that sense of hope.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
But very interesting as well as you know, his majority
is obviously you know, it looks like he will win
the popular vote. There still counting in California. Somehow takes
rereove account all these works in California. But you know,
apart from Arizona, most of those majorities in the swing
states were really tight, just a couple of points in
most of them. So it's not considering the amount of
(25:19):
change that he has run on a really fundamental rethinking
of the American economy. Massive tariffs on on China, and
then then what massive massive tariffs on China and massive
tariffs on everyone else as well. And then there's these
these cuts that Elon Musk and Vivit Ramaswami are going
to be doing it at this Doge entity, the massive,
(25:41):
massive cuts, and you'd have to think, well, the tariffs,
there's a they will be inflationary. There's a good chance
that'll be watered down. These cuts. You know, Elon Musk
is talking about trillions of dollars of cuts. You don't
cut that amount of money from a government without it
hurting people, hurting voters, and and so you look at
those tiny majorities in those swing states and think, at
(26:04):
a certain point, I mean, obviously he's not time running
for reelection in four years time, but but at a
student point, you would think that that if if the
terriff inflation, and if those cuts start to cut to
programs people like, then then his popularity and and and
the polling and those swing states with whoever whoever runs
is a Republican next time, you know, it's going to
(26:26):
be it'll be difficult, like it's it's it's it could
it could get quite ugly quite fast. Yep.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
Absolutely, But I don't think one. I don't think Donald
Trump would ever care about that. You know, he will
have no no, just like abortion. You know, I had
this friend tell me, you know, I think Donald Trump
ever thought about you know, if you were pregnant with
a baby that your doctor tells you that you can't
carry the full term, and if you don't get abortion
right now, you know it's it's a health care risk.
(26:55):
It's a health risk. I just don't think he would
ever be able to understand. And all think that far
and it's always a one liner from him right, So yeah,
I don't think he's thinking about that.
Speaker 1 (27:06):
Well, I said, look that is we've just hit our
time time time threshol. Thank you so much for joining
us and enjoy your your your your travels and hopefully
see you back in New Zealand sometimes.
Speaker 2 (27:19):
So thank you, Thomas, thank you, have a good day
you too.
Speaker 1 (27:27):
That was on the tiles Ethan Stills as our producer.
You can find us on iHeartRadio where if you get
your podcasts and you know, leave us a nice rating
and review, please a subscribe. Yeah,
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