August 2, 2024 • 34 mins
This week Thomas is joined by Newstalk ZB political editor Jason Walls to discuss the latest political drama, namely the Greens and their ongoing internal strifes after suspending MP Darleen Tana, and Act and Te Pāti Māori clash over political pins and stickers, and accusations of race-based bullying.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hello, and welcome to On the Tiles, the New Zealand
Herald's politics podcast. I'm your host who's recently had vocal
training Thomas Coughlin, the deputy Political editor of the New
Zealand Herald, and joining me today is the political editor
of News Talk z'b the right Honorable Jason Walls.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Thank you very much for somebody who has not had
vocal training.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I didn't have much.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
How quickly am I speaking compared to how you're speaking?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
And we're joined today. We extended an invitation to the
political editor of the Herald, Clear Trivete Clear, So hello.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Did you hear that? You probably didn't because she couldn't come.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
A brave man to smack talk your boss on a podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
She will be joining us in a future episode. She's
actually an Auckland this weekend for the National Party conference, so
keep keep tuned to the New Zealand Herald and News
Talks there'd be for coverage of that. Should be an
interesting conference. Actually, I was reminded it's that that you
drop jew drop events center. I think in South Auckland.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
It's the old Vodafone Events center, is it.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
I believe?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
So yeah, I'm not in Auckland. It's all the same
to me. There's the bit north of the bridge, in
the bit south of the bridge, and then there's what Hicky.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Island by the christ Boy onodcast.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
That's all were too much right away, but you know,
so it's the first time the nets have gone back
there since twenty twenty one, which was probably one of
the most disastrous party conferences the National Party ever had.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
That was the one where there was the.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Revolt over the party stance, conversion therapy, the powerful speech
taking issue with the party's stance. There were the rainbow
colored badges actually and actually afterwards while New Zealand was
in lockdown, we were in the Delta lockdown shortly after
that conference and if few days later I think, and
uh and and shortly after that I think there were
(02:04):
some demotions made as a result of the conference anyway.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
But they did have them. Maybe it wasn't a conference,
but it was their rally before the election. That's where
Chris Hip or Luxen did the hohold. These are my
the eight priorities for government that was at the events.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Okay, so it's not the last one is that was
that A I can't remember if it was a conference
or if.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
It was a rally, but it was. It was a
big sort of ra rah event where you know, it
was their social media guy. Actually Jake was introducing all
the MPs with the because he does the voice.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
That was a campaign launch campaign launches what he was, Yes, yeah,
he does great voices.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome. It was a lot of that.
It was great.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
All right, Let's well on on on a GM's agms
and party conferences. Let's talk about the Greens at the
AGM and christ Church last week. I was the lovely,
lovely couple of days in christ Church, beautiful weather. The
same can't be said about Wellington, which has been atrocious
controversial resignations, resignations. The party looks to be triggering the
(03:03):
waker jumping legislation. They're not officially doing it, but they're
getting ready to. What do you think, Jason, then do
it well?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
To be honest, I was just happy something actually of
interest came out of the Greens AGM. I mean these
are usually just the biggest snore fests, fests because they
don't invite media in for any of it. You get
to they give you the grace and opportunity to watch
the leader's speech, but you can do that online via
a live stream these days, so there's not much point
(03:32):
in media going. But obviously there was this time.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
And what is the most open and transparent party conference
of you know, on average New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
You sit in there for some of their remit discussions
and they just have at it. And because recently.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
They have claimed down a little bit, but like that's
true that they are. If you're listening to this the
most open party conference you can really just walk in
and have listened to if you've registered I think and
have listened to anything.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, sorry, good for you instant.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I mean for the rest of it. You know, it
was always going to be the Darling conference.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Chloe put an open letter to the Prime minister about
the rental crisis. Yep, cool, okay. I don't know what
you hope to achieve from that, but it was it
was always going to be about that. That was going
to be the Darling question. I think what Chloe did
well is she and her press teams they at least
tried to separate it a little bit. They said, we're
going to have a press conference specifically for this because
(04:24):
this is what we've talked about. So it did kind
of break them up a little bit, but it was
I mean, it's tragically Greens for them to just say, Okay,
you know, we've talked about it, and we've got twenty
one days before we decide to do and sit down
and talk about it again. And so they will I
think probably trigger it. I think it's probably not going
to be as easy as they think it is. They
need to get to seventy five percent and the Greens
(04:45):
don't even agree that grass is green for one hundred percent,
you know, so there's going to be some fractions there.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
But yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Have to say, I mean Greens, the Greens are. They
are a naturally disputatious party. It's funny. They operate by
consensus obviously that's how they decided things. But they you
know that they are a conviction I mean, all parties
are conviction parties to a student extent, but the Greens
to hold their convictions more deally than most, which means
(05:16):
that they are that they do tend to fight in
a certain way when there are big issues at play,
and you know that if they didn't do that, they
wouldn't be the Greens, so you have to take that
as it is. I also met some listeners of the
podcast while we were done in fans well well, I mean,
(05:37):
I'm not sure. Some of them expressed that they did
like it, and others were Others merely said listen. So look,
listeners or fans, thank you for listening. And I hope
we are fairly reflecting how you felt at the conference
a GM.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
But I do.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
It did seem I've been you know, my first Green
a GM was twenty eighteen Palms the North. That was
That was the that was the dead rat AGM. Jenni
fitz Simon's came to talk about her views on the
Walker Jumping Party hopping bill. At that stage, I often
still called the bill because I haven't my mind hasn't
been It's been in the statue books for years now
(06:15):
and I still have to remind myself. But but but
it did seem. I have to say it was quite
There were shades of light and dark. I thought, a
bit like the National Party in twenty twenty one. You
can sort of see the building blocks of a strong
political movement there. They do still have strong MPs and
(06:38):
strong figures in the party. I thought Chloe speeches were
both very good, particularly the first day one the second day.
I thought that the open letter, the Greens are particularly
guilty of this. Every party is guilty of it, but
the Greens, I think you'll agree, the Greens are a
wee bit guilty of just sort of doing a stunt
(06:58):
and then seat of trying to make the stunts sound
like it's bigger than it actually is.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Would you, oh, totally, we're launching an open letter or
they did that like a campaign of letter writing around something.
They did it when they were in government as well, and.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
We're like, come on, I mean, I don't want to
pick on the Green so everybody like everyone does this,
you know we're doing this, would the harvest email and dresses,
but they certainly the Green students do.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
It quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
I also think to be fear of the Greens. It
is a bit too early to be launching a policy
a couple of a couple of years away from an election,
we think, because you do have.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
That problem this early on in a political cycle. If
you go too early, you it gets drowned out. But
if you don't do anything, you have people like us
sitting here on a podcast being like ah, I wasn't
good enough, so I did, Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I even I ever asked Chloe, I wanted the stand
ups to sort of like, you know, you're talking about
the Wealth Text and what you've spend on is the
Wealth Text your election text policy next selection? And she
was like, oh, well, you know, like we'll decided that
obviously we don't know haven't worked out what that is yet.
There's the whole Green Party bureaucracy to do to decide
what the what the.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
What the policy was. And then she sort of she
you know, it's a print gyurnist.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
It's quite hard to write, you know, like she smiled
in a way that made it clearly look like.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
This is very obviously be the election policy.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
But but anyway, I did think the first day speech
was very good about becoming that political movement. And you see,
you know she's obviously very strong MP. Madame and Davidson
very strong co leader too, kind of and they work
quite well together, possibly not quite as Yin and Yang
as as James Shaw and Madame and Davidson was, And
I think that's I'm not sure whether that's a positive
(08:34):
thing or any gative thing.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I think because.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
James and Mardimou reached out to different constituencies, I think,
I think. But I also there's a part of me
that thinks that Chloe coming in and replacing James is
quite good because after the compromises that James Shaw made
in government's probably quite a good thing to have a
bit more other kind of rah rah basse balming co
(08:56):
leader to you know.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Consolidated a wee bit.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
I think she's that all of the all of the
rawness of feeling around James Shaw which resulted in him
being booted out. Briefly, I think Chloe is possibly the
right candidates to sort of calm that and consoled it
and get ready. But so in Ricardo min in this march,
I think is also very good. And some of the
(09:19):
u MP's are good too. For all of that, obviously,
you know, for all of the positive stuff which is there.
You know, that's these disparate islands connected by a sea
of of problems. And one problem is Daly, and then
the other problem is this residual feeling around Elizabeth Key Kenny,
which clearly resulted in in those resignations as well. And
(09:42):
then the other thing as well is I think, like
the James Shaw in a way, I think that there
are some people in the Green Party whose entire identity
as Green members was to not like James Show. Now
that he's gone, some of them have sort of had
a loss of what to do.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, I'm they could transfer some of that onto to Chloe.
But the thing about it, they're different. I mean, there
are different people. I think what Chloe has done well
is obviously because Madama has been away with the breast
cancer treatment. She I think she did quite well in
terms of, as you said, the speeches and just she's
had to walk this incredibly tight tight rope I reckon
(10:21):
in a lot of things because you had this faction
of the Pacific It's not I was gonna say caucus.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
It's not.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
They're not in p's They're just members of the party
that's dramatically left.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Lived experience networks like a sub organizational substrata within the Greens.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Yeah, which is which is.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Formalized in the party constitution. So it's actually quite a serious.
It would be like people resigning from the Labor Council
or sub council of the Labor Council.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Green Party, true to the Green Party is a very complicated, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Structure painfully democratic as well, which is a to put
credit and.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Disc constitution on my phone before I went to the
ATM so I could act like you hadn't already.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Read that in the night before and knew it off
by heart. But yeah, I think that element. I mean,
because obviously the Greens pride themselves on the sort of
pacifica wing of their membership, so this will hurt them,
and I think especially some of the things that were
said in that letter. I mean, we can leave the
Dali and stuff at the door. The Elizabeth Kerdy Kedy
stuff we can address. But you know what they said
about Afesso, about how the Green Party leadership never really
(11:29):
reached out to them to make sure that they were okay,
And I know for a fact that that hurt a
lot of MPs because they felt that they they did
do that and be their focus was on quite rightly
on a Fesso's family.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
It does, yeah, and it does seem like quite a
lot of that leader. The facts of the leader are disputed,
although the Green's being quite clear just sort of taking
up the chin. Yeah, but it does seem like the
facts of the letter that was read oubt during those
resignations was yeah, it's it's somewhat disputed, So yeah, I mean,
I really it will be interesting to see just how
(12:06):
widespread those feelings are. It does sort of seem like
so that's that that that that that group has a
lived experienced a network. And they did name check in
the letter the g l N, which is the Green
Left Network, which is the sort of group of christ
which is a sort of group of of of left
(12:27):
wing Green members that grew out of the budget responsibility
rules drama in the opposition to that, they seem to
have attached themselves to that particular LIBT experience network because
lived there are the Green Party has many networks. If
I'm getting this wrong, tell me.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
No one else knows, not even the Greens. You are
the ultimate authority on this.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
And some of the networks are related to political ideology.
There's there's the Green Left Network, there's the d Growth Greens,
which believes that growth are problematic and we need to
relook at that. So and as a result of recent
constitutional changes that were made in twenty twenty two, lived
experience networks which relate to sort of facets of one's life,
like being PACIFICA or being young the Young Greens of Members,
(13:13):
or being part of the Rainbow community. They have quite
a powerful constitutional place, and political groupings like the Green
Left Network, which are shared political ideologies as opposed to
your lived experience, they seem to have been demphasized. So
it does appear that parts of that political some of
those political groupings having been demphasized by the constitutional or
(13:34):
disempowered by the constitutional changes, they seem to have attached
themselves into lived experience networks which through which they can
sort of re experience some of the power that they
once held. That there does, and that that left that
was readoubt did I think named the GLn because there
was they were attached to some of the feeling around
(13:55):
Elizabeth Kitty Q two. So it does, it does, Yeah,
it does. It appears that that is there is a
sort of proxy issue fight.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Playing out complicated spider web that you've just.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
It is and I think I think that possibly they're
doing a candidate selection review as well. It does seem
like they're visting that is done on candidates, like I mean,
there isn't a lot on Darling Tanner that they would
have been able to see in twenty twenty, certainly in
twenty twenty when they selected the first time, and and
possibly also in twenty twenty three when they selected to
(14:29):
the second time. So it's not clear what could have
been done beyond her being more forthcoming and about what
she knew. It's not clear what an external review might
have been able to find. But but certainly it seems
like they're going to beef up their external review of
all candidates, which will be probably a good thing because certainly,
(14:52):
like if there was anything you could find on Darling
Tana before she became a candidate, then then you it
would be pretty difficult to see who being selected if
they knew, even if they knew even a shread of
what they know now, right, gosh, what a drama anything
else in the Greens Jason.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
No, No, I just think that it's I think they
will certainly adopt the waker jumping legislation. I think it's
going to be a bitter battle, and I'd love to
hear or be a fly on the wall on September
first when they discuss it. But I'm not convinced that
it's just going to go away as easily as they think.
I mean, this is a piece of legislation that's never
been tested. So far, we've had the likes of I mean,
(15:34):
I think Jaieee Ross was around before it came into law.
But you've got the likes of he blew up the
year eight convenient. But then you've got like Mika Fiery Gurev, Sharima,
Elizabeth Katy Ketty. You've got all these people that made
their home in Siberia in the back of the chamber.
Wasn't tested on any of them. And slightly ironically that
(15:54):
the most verment opponents of the legislation now will be
the ones to actually give it its first spin. I'm
interested to see how it actually is works in with
the employment law because technical line or Parliament's are completely different.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
People don't think they are employees. No, they're not covered.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, oh open season then.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah, you can do what you like.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, so that yeah, they're not it's it's not at Yeah,
I think you're good. I don't think they come under
those predictions. And the other I mean she's the first
one because the other the MPs you cite, it all
blew up basically within twelve months in an election, which
which sort of took it off the table because you
know who cares the Jamie Lee is the last one
who blew up during an election or sorry before years
(16:40):
prior to election, and Simon Bridges, you know, opted not
to use that.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah. I think it was quite a good decision because
I remember.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
It was quite funny for Bridges as well, because he
led the opposition as the leader of the opposite to
do the jumping bill. Yeah, and then a few months
later he's the first person to be in a position
to use it.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah. But the thing with the Greens is if for
whatever reason it's not successful, it doesn't I mean, it
matters because they don't get another MP in. But Darling
Tana is going to become irrelevant soon. I remember when
I would give my right hand to see Jamie Lee
Ross walking by himself so I could stop him for questions.
I had the same experience with Good Sharma, with Mika Phaytidi,
(17:20):
all of these people. I was just I would sell
my firstborn son for a three minute interview with you,
and then like a week later you'd see them walking along.
He'd be like, actually, there's just this. This is irrelevant.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Now, this is the real I mean, And this was
again sighted at the AGM as one of the reasons
why one of the reasons for frustration with what the
Greens are doing is that people in opposition to using
the legislation believe that it is being done.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
For pecuniary reasons.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
The Greens, obviously being a smaller party the National with
somewhat shallower pockets, do lose parliamentary funding. That they believe
that that they thought they might have been a title
too until the election, so that is a concern that
they have, and obviously the faster they can get her
out of parliament, the more the more quickly they can
(18:10):
get their hands on that parliamentary funding. Again, obviously, the
votes don't really matter. They're going to lose your vote anyway,
unless you know there's a there's an unless there's a
members bill that comes down to the wire that does
not like this. There are any of them coming soon.
But but yes there is like there is a there
is a financial aspect of this. But I agree with you.
(18:30):
That's that's the thing. I mean, if you really, if
you really hold your principles quite tightly, you don't lose anything.
Because I completely agree with you. I remember sometimes just
pinching myself into twenty nineteen as Jamie Ross would come
across the bridge and no one would care because a
year prior we were all running like around not just Wellington,
(18:52):
but the country defined them. We thought he might be
in the Hawk's Bay, we thought it was an Auckland.
He drove the you know down the night. Were trying
to find him anywhere, and he rationed his time so
cleverly to stay in the media spotlight. But then after
a few weeks it was all over. And really you'd
have to say that in a few weeks time, Darling
(19:15):
is gone, right, the next big story of the week
pens pens, pens and needles, sticks and stones, breaking everyone's bones?
(19:40):
Where do you stand on the party in their pins
and on Laura's rask and wanted to cheer the subcommittee?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Too many committees, too many committees. So I think this
whole week has been orchestrated by David Seymour and the
act Party to make a point the law. They were
clearly clearly wanting to turn the whole Laura Trusk thing
for listeners that are on a where Essentially what the
act Party claimed happened is that in a subcommittee, while
(20:08):
assessing submissions on Uraga Tamadiki's removal of seven double A.
Laura Trusk was musing whether she should be heading that subcommittee,
and allegedly she was told by and this has been
cooperated by other National and ACT members there, that maybe
Carmel Seppaloni would be better because submitters who would more
(20:31):
likely to be Marty or Pacifica would see themselves more
in her. Now, from what I understand, that has been
challenged somewhat by others that were there, saying well, she
just kind of wanted to practice her submitting either way.
She didn't end up. She went on to chair the
committee for for and Jerry Brown. So this was the
ACT Party wrote to the Speaker to say, essentially, this
(20:51):
is bad your you appear to be making or you
appear to be siding with racial this, that and the other.
He made a big song dance of it in the
house and so that's the first issue. The second is
the pins where the ACT Party and I'm sorry this
sounds so convoluted and stupid, but let me I'll get
through it just so everybody knows the context so we
can say how ridiculous it is. But the ACT Party
(21:13):
have been wearing lapel pins for years and years and years.
Absolutely no trouble with it. But it were a couple
of weeks prior it was Cameron Luxton from ACT and
James Meaga from National pointed out that Hannah Rapti might
be clerk from Tiparty Marti had some stickers on her
laptop that said Tiparty Marti on them. Parliament's rules say,
you know, allowed logos and anyway. Because of that, here's
(21:33):
where it gets interesting and sorry to bore everyone, but
as I understand it, the Business Committee, which is where
all the top head honchos from across the party's meet,
had a meeting with the Speaker and basically they said,
all right, if there is no political memorabilary at all,
nothing at all. And ACT actually said, hey, what about
our badges and they said including the badges the ACT
(21:55):
party still wore them, so they knew about this and
they just wanted to needle the Speaker because they wanted
to make a point about the law.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Trusk thing I heard. This is what you know, and
you can see why Jerry took the position that he did.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
If that was the.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Undertaking that he was given.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, yeah, and I actually feel bad for Jerry throughout
this whole situation. I'm sorry, the right armorable mister Brownley,
free Jerry, Free Jerry, because he is his hands are tied.
He's not allowed to comment on these sorts of things.
So he could be sitting there being like everything that
is happening, everything they're saying is ridiculous for X y
Z reasons, But he can't comment. But the ACT Party
(22:29):
and David Seymour can come out and say, give these
long press conferences about how this is the worst thing
to happen since the last bad thing that happened to
the ACT Party.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, the pins, the pin it did seem to be
a storm a tea cup. I mean that the the
law Trusk thing seems to have been a point that
you would raise at the business. I mean they got
she got her way, like they got what they wanted
out of there. I don't you know, and I don't
think it's an unfear thing for to Party Marory to raise,
(23:01):
you know, and Stephen double A like.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
It is the.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Specific section that they're appealing, which is the treaty clause
has an obvious resonance with Maori communities. So you can
see what and and and and you know, like child
uplifts and the state care has a particular resonance for Maori.
So you can sort of see why to party Mary
(23:25):
would say, hey, look, you know, and light of that,
would it be better for this to occur where that
to party Mary raised there in a way that was
slightly you know, they can be slightly trolly sometimes, and
whether they raise and good faith it is sort of
something that only the people on that committee we know,
(23:47):
but it's it's certainly like a it's certainly a sensible
question for them to have asked. But obviously the committee
decided no, and so in you know, end of story
should be in the end of story.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah, well, but for all I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
I think I'm not sure whether Todd Stevenson made the
right calling, Like it seems a streets that you'd call
that privilege. It really does seem like a privilege issue.
Sorry that you question whether that was a you'd even
question whether where the privilege was at stake.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, like maybe if they if she'd been kicked off
in lieu of somebody else from an actual from a
proper select committee rather than a sub committee. But that
didn't happen, and.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Lord, the lesser, the lesson that Todd Stevens and the
Whip are free to write about the instant and the
incident did say that she was sort of shaken and shot,
so it does suggest that whatever the discussion was was
a fairly frank and heated one, So you do have
to wonder about that. But but but certainly, like I
think the position that departing money raises are totally legitimate
(24:47):
one and but it's also like equal equally like the
majority on the comedie and saide, look, thanks, but no thanks.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
We she think we don't.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
We think we'll take a color blind whatever approach to
whatever I make. Those are your political positions, and you
live and die by them. But I think like raising
it as an issue, because I mean, the idea that
you sort of can't talk about one like one's race
and what that how that affects your worldview and your skills.
(25:19):
The idea that that that that raising that could be
a question could breach privileges quite ridiculous, Like what are
we all going to pretend that that that that people's
races don't give them a particular worldview or not that
that that that the experiences that people have as a
(25:40):
result of of of the heritage, do not give them
a particular perspective on things as I guess what I'm
trying to say without getting canceled.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
And then and then and then that the issue where
do you stand on current sure and to party Mai
this this this conflict was in the house, I think
on social media.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, I think it's I mean the Tea Party Mari
are absolutely at fault here. I think Karen Shaw is.
I mean, they consistently playing the man not the ball
is problematic in this sort of scenario because I come
back to it when it comes to the abuse of
Wahini Mary in politics, who would be the first political
party to stand up and say this is awful and
(26:25):
it needs to stop. Tea Party Marty and we would
all cheer them on from the sidelines because they're correct.
But when they're the first ones to stand up and
make these horrific comments to Karen Shaw, I think that's
probably time that they have a little bit of self
reflection and the way that they're talking, particularly to her,
and just any sort of any Mardi MP that is
(26:46):
not on their side. I mean the way that media
amounta the way that one of their MP's was talking
about James Mega media amounta Kappakini on urn Z was
just horrible, saying things like, oh, well he's got a
Parky har boss, he's got this institutionalized racism because he's
(27:07):
in the National Party. I mean it just really who's
it's I don't feel like and I think the Nats,
the Mary Nats like Simon Bridges and Paula Bennett across
the years, who have consistently been targeted like this, would say, well,
who are you to question my fuckerpuppa?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, I mean I do it does I probably would
be less inclined to say, to Party Marti's holy at fault,
but certainly they like Karen Truer clearly has you know.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
A it is a it is a personal kind of.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Trauma relating to her upbringing and and stake here, and
like to Party Marty seem unusually callous and targeting that
and exploiting it, which is something I've never actually seen
in parliament. Working here, it's fairly robust. MPs wind each
other up. They try and look for chinks and their
(28:08):
armor because it's you know, that's sort of how you
get ahead fly. You look for weak spots, but you
tend to leave personal stuff out of it. I mean,
like things like I mean, there have been like relationship breakdowns,
marriage breakdowns in Parliament. Everyone knows which MP's are going
through them, but it's never mentioned in the you know,
(28:28):
in the houses a sort of something to In fact,
it usually means that the MPs go softer on each
other because they try they realize that one of their
colleagues is having a tough time.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
That sort of stuff, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
It shows that actually that the MP's are quite good
at playing there as to your point, are quite good
at playing the issue, not the not the person. In
this situation, it's slightly different obviously because the issue of
state care is one that Karen Sure is defending in Parliament,
so the issue and the person are the same thing.
(28:59):
But to partly do seem unusually callous and that they
know that this is a certain thing that in her identity,
They know that this is a certain thing that that
that that hurts, and they are constantly attacking it. I mean,
at the same time, I mean, I'm not sure how
the public feels about it. I don't I think the
public do get slightly sick of Tabarti maori and their
(29:23):
piety around issues like this. I also think that the
public sympathy for people's feelings is an inverse proportion to
how much those people are paid. So I'm not sure
whether care insuranspires a massive amount of sympathy on the
on the part of the public either, but you know,
we'll see. I obviously this is an issue. It's a
(29:48):
really tough one because the issue seven double a the
center which cultural herod whatever the treaty clause of the
antimody he Act, the extent to which ones once culture
and PAPA should into decisions around around state here. I mean,
I can see both arguments. Taking someone away from their
culture does that's problematic? At the same time, prioritizing someone's
(30:11):
culture at the at the expense of just getting them
out of a tough situation is also problematic. And it's
one It's an issue that certainly should be litigated in Parliament,
which it is being, but it seems like no one
has actually got the got the chops to litigate it
without hurling insults into one another, which is, you know,
somewhat dispiriting from a political observers standpoint. That that actually
(30:32):
are politics. This is an issue that is so motive
that our politics doesn't actually be able, isn't actually able
to resolve it in a way that is at all foolful.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Do you think that the government side have been doing that?
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Though I haven't, I should say National, I mean Willow
Jean has taken Willigen Primus, who's prosecuting it for labor,
has taken things pretty you know, it's I think she's
taken it less farther than the Maori Party and Crisipit
said that he wanted to restrain it, so she's she
seems to have been, you know, keeping things relatively on
(31:06):
the right side of the line. And National and National
I think New Zealand first have been pretty New Zealand national,
but National have been like you see them in the
House and certainly you know like sometimes I mean X
(31:27):
wants to put the sort of color blind worldview on
New Zealand, which is which you know, it's quite a blunt.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Philosophy around race, which is you know.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Their pervi you know, they want votes to be able
to do that. Sometimes sometimes I wonder whether they are
that they have such a that bluntness as is, perhaps
it'll equipped for the thorniness and the nuance of It's
certainly like being being colorblind as as a as a
(32:00):
as a way of addressing racial issues in New Zealand.
But but certainly that the relentlessness with which they prosecuted
and and uh, and the lack of sympathy for the
way that that people who are on the on the
the coal face of of of were race leads to
(32:20):
worse socioeconomic outcomes. The lack of empathy for perhaps, uh,
people who who see the world that way, the lack
of empathy for people who held those views and and
what and what and why they might think that your
colorblind view is inadequate. I think there's a there's an
issue there. They both seem to be shouting at each other,
(32:42):
which I'm not sure was the most helpful resulting this issue. Well, Jason,
any any final thoughts. No, I just think that it's
who's gonna win the election.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Uh, the bloody people of New Zealand. That's right, We're
gonna We're going to throw a democratic for around and
they're going to come up with the government that reflects that. Yes,
But yeah, I don't know. I don't see this issue
of race abating anytime soon. I think that TI Party
Mardi are probably going to dig their heels in if anything.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Whenston Peters was given us an envelope in which he
was told to put the who he thinks will win
the US presidential election, do you've I saw that style?
I mean, do we think when do we think he's
actually going to do it? And two who do you
think he'll you know, who do we think will win
the US presidential election?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Trump? Probably?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, I'm sort of feeling, you know, I'm getting bricksity vibes,
you know, fifty two forty eight. You know, I'm sort
of still erring on the side of Trump, but the
hair seems they have momental.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah, I'm just guarded. We don't want to see another
Biden Trump debate. That was just you couldn't look away.
It was like a car crash.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
I know, all right, Jason Walls, have a lovely weekend.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Oh thank you, my friend.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
To our listeners, thank you for listening. I hope the
voice training that I did.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
It kind of went out the window when you were
explaining that the intricate New Green parties to various different
webs It's terrible.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Thank you very much, for listening.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
As always, Ethan Sills is our executive producer that was
on the Tiles this week. Join us next week for
more on the tiles. Must be a local addition, so
I'm looking forward to a week half. I had to
say thank you very much hid it out.
Hello, and welcome to On the Tiles, the New Zealand
Herald's politics podcast. I'm your host who's recently had vocal
training Thomas Coughlin, the deputy Political editor of the New
Zealand Herald, and joining me today is the political editor
of News Talk z'b the right Honorable Jason Walls.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Thank you very much for somebody who has not had
vocal training.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
I didn't have much.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
How quickly am I speaking compared to how you're speaking?
Speaker 1 (00:33):
And we're joined today. We extended an invitation to the
political editor of the Herald, Clear Trivete Clear, So hello.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Did you hear that? You probably didn't because she couldn't come.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
A brave man to smack talk your boss on a podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
She will be joining us in a future episode. She's
actually an Auckland this weekend for the National Party conference, so
keep keep tuned to the New Zealand Herald and News
Talks there'd be for coverage of that. Should be an
interesting conference. Actually, I was reminded it's that that you
drop jew drop events center. I think in South Auckland.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
It's the old Vodafone Events center, is it.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
I believe?
Speaker 1 (01:14):
So yeah, I'm not in Auckland. It's all the same
to me. There's the bit north of the bridge, in
the bit south of the bridge, and then there's what Hicky.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Island by the christ Boy onodcast.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
That's all were too much right away, but you know,
so it's the first time the nets have gone back
there since twenty twenty one, which was probably one of
the most disastrous party conferences the National Party ever had.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
That was the one where there was the.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Revolt over the party stance, conversion therapy, the powerful speech
taking issue with the party's stance. There were the rainbow
colored badges actually and actually afterwards while New Zealand was
in lockdown, we were in the Delta lockdown shortly after
that conference and if few days later I think, and
uh and and shortly after that I think there were
(02:04):
some demotions made as a result of the conference anyway.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
But they did have them. Maybe it wasn't a conference,
but it was their rally before the election. That's where
Chris Hip or Luxen did the hohold. These are my
the eight priorities for government that was at the events.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Okay, so it's not the last one is that was
that A I can't remember if it was a conference
or if.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
It was a rally, but it was. It was a
big sort of ra rah event where you know, it
was their social media guy. Actually Jake was introducing all
the MPs with the because he does the voice.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
That was a campaign launch campaign launches what he was, Yes, yeah,
he does great voices.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome. It was a lot of that.
It was great.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
All right, Let's well on on on a GM's agms
and party conferences. Let's talk about the Greens at the
AGM and christ Church last week. I was the lovely,
lovely couple of days in christ Church, beautiful weather. The
same can't be said about Wellington, which has been atrocious
controversial resignations, resignations. The party looks to be triggering the
(03:03):
waker jumping legislation. They're not officially doing it, but they're
getting ready to. What do you think, Jason, then do
it well?
Speaker 2 (03:10):
To be honest, I was just happy something actually of
interest came out of the Greens AGM. I mean these
are usually just the biggest snore fests, fests because they
don't invite media in for any of it. You get
to they give you the grace and opportunity to watch
the leader's speech, but you can do that online via
a live stream these days, so there's not much point
(03:32):
in media going. But obviously there was this time.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
And what is the most open and transparent party conference
of you know, on average New Zealand.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
You sit in there for some of their remit discussions
and they just have at it. And because recently.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
They have claimed down a little bit, but like that's
true that they are. If you're listening to this the
most open party conference you can really just walk in
and have listened to if you've registered I think and
have listened to anything.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
Yeah, sorry, good for you instant.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I mean for the rest of it. You know, it
was always going to be the Darling conference.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Chloe put an open letter to the Prime minister about
the rental crisis. Yep, cool, okay. I don't know what
you hope to achieve from that, but it was it
was always going to be about that. That was going
to be the Darling question. I think what Chloe did
well is she and her press teams they at least
tried to separate it a little bit. They said, we're
going to have a press conference specifically for this because
(04:24):
this is what we've talked about. So it did kind
of break them up a little bit, but it was
I mean, it's tragically Greens for them to just say, Okay,
you know, we've talked about it, and we've got twenty
one days before we decide to do and sit down
and talk about it again. And so they will I
think probably trigger it. I think it's probably not going
to be as easy as they think it is. They
need to get to seventy five percent and the Greens
(04:45):
don't even agree that grass is green for one hundred percent,
you know, so there's going to be some fractions there.
Speaker 3 (04:53):
But yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (04:54):
Have to say, I mean Greens, the Greens are. They
are a naturally disputatious party. It's funny. They operate by
consensus obviously that's how they decided things. But they you
know that they are a conviction I mean, all parties
are conviction parties to a student extent, but the Greens
to hold their convictions more deally than most, which means
(05:16):
that they are that they do tend to fight in
a certain way when there are big issues at play,
and you know that if they didn't do that, they
wouldn't be the Greens, so you have to take that
as it is. I also met some listeners of the
podcast while we were done in fans well well, I mean,
(05:37):
I'm not sure. Some of them expressed that they did
like it, and others were Others merely said listen. So look,
listeners or fans, thank you for listening. And I hope
we are fairly reflecting how you felt at the conference
a GM.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
But I do.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
It did seem I've been you know, my first Green
a GM was twenty eighteen Palms the North. That was
That was the that was the dead rat AGM. Jenni
fitz Simon's came to talk about her views on the
Walker Jumping Party hopping bill. At that stage, I often
still called the bill because I haven't my mind hasn't
been It's been in the statue books for years now
(06:15):
and I still have to remind myself. But but but
it did seem. I have to say it was quite
There were shades of light and dark. I thought, a
bit like the National Party in twenty twenty one. You
can sort of see the building blocks of a strong
political movement there. They do still have strong MPs and
(06:38):
strong figures in the party. I thought Chloe speeches were
both very good, particularly the first day one the second day.
I thought that the open letter, the Greens are particularly
guilty of this. Every party is guilty of it, but
the Greens, I think you'll agree, the Greens are a
wee bit guilty of just sort of doing a stunt
(06:58):
and then seat of trying to make the stunts sound
like it's bigger than it actually is.
Speaker 2 (07:02):
Would you, oh, totally, we're launching an open letter or
they did that like a campaign of letter writing around something.
They did it when they were in government as well, and.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
We're like, come on, I mean, I don't want to
pick on the Green so everybody like everyone does this,
you know we're doing this, would the harvest email and dresses,
but they certainly the Green students do.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
It quite a bit.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
I also think to be fear of the Greens. It
is a bit too early to be launching a policy
a couple of a couple of years away from an election,
we think, because you do have.
Speaker 2 (07:30):
That problem this early on in a political cycle. If
you go too early, you it gets drowned out. But
if you don't do anything, you have people like us
sitting here on a podcast being like ah, I wasn't
good enough, so I did, Yeah, you're right.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
I even I ever asked Chloe, I wanted the stand
ups to sort of like, you know, you're talking about
the Wealth Text and what you've spend on is the
Wealth Text your election text policy next selection? And she
was like, oh, well, you know, like we'll decided that
obviously we don't know haven't worked out what that is yet.
There's the whole Green Party bureaucracy to do to decide
what the what the.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
What the policy was. And then she sort of she
you know, it's a print gyurnist.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
It's quite hard to write, you know, like she smiled
in a way that made it clearly look like.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
This is very obviously be the election policy.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
But but anyway, I did think the first day speech
was very good about becoming that political movement. And you see,
you know she's obviously very strong MP. Madame and Davidson
very strong co leader too, kind of and they work
quite well together, possibly not quite as Yin and Yang
as as James Shaw and Madame and Davidson was, And
I think that's I'm not sure whether that's a positive
(08:34):
thing or any gative thing.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
I think because.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
James and Mardimou reached out to different constituencies, I think,
I think. But I also there's a part of me
that thinks that Chloe coming in and replacing James is
quite good because after the compromises that James Shaw made
in government's probably quite a good thing to have a
bit more other kind of rah rah basse balming co
(08:56):
leader to you know.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Consolidated a wee bit.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
I think she's that all of the all of the
rawness of feeling around James Shaw which resulted in him
being booted out. Briefly, I think Chloe is possibly the
right candidates to sort of calm that and consoled it
and get ready. But so in Ricardo min in this march,
I think is also very good. And some of the
(09:19):
u MP's are good too. For all of that, obviously,
you know, for all of the positive stuff which is there.
You know, that's these disparate islands connected by a sea
of of problems. And one problem is Daly, and then
the other problem is this residual feeling around Elizabeth Key Kenny,
which clearly resulted in in those resignations as well. And
(09:42):
then the other thing as well is I think, like
the James Shaw in a way, I think that there
are some people in the Green Party whose entire identity
as Green members was to not like James Show. Now
that he's gone, some of them have sort of had
a loss of what to do.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
What do you think?
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, I'm they could transfer some of that onto to Chloe.
But the thing about it, they're different. I mean, there
are different people. I think what Chloe has done well
is obviously because Madama has been away with the breast
cancer treatment. She I think she did quite well in
terms of, as you said, the speeches and just she's
had to walk this incredibly tight tight rope I reckon
(10:21):
in a lot of things because you had this faction
of the Pacific It's not I was gonna say caucus.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
It's not.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
They're not in p's They're just members of the party
that's dramatically left.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Lived experience networks like a sub organizational substrata within the Greens.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
Yeah, which is which is.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Formalized in the party constitution. So it's actually quite a serious.
It would be like people resigning from the Labor Council
or sub council of the Labor Council.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Green Party, true to the Green Party is a very complicated, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Structure painfully democratic as well, which is a to put
credit and.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
Disc constitution on my phone before I went to the
ATM so I could act like you hadn't already.
Speaker 2 (11:07):
Read that in the night before and knew it off
by heart. But yeah, I think that element. I mean,
because obviously the Greens pride themselves on the sort of
pacifica wing of their membership, so this will hurt them,
and I think especially some of the things that were
said in that letter. I mean, we can leave the
Dali and stuff at the door. The Elizabeth Kerdy Kedy
stuff we can address. But you know what they said
about Afesso, about how the Green Party leadership never really
(11:29):
reached out to them to make sure that they were okay,
And I know for a fact that that hurt a
lot of MPs because they felt that they they did
do that and be their focus was on quite rightly
on a Fesso's family.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
It does, yeah, and it does seem like quite a
lot of that leader. The facts of the leader are disputed,
although the Green's being quite clear just sort of taking
up the chin. Yeah, but it does seem like the
facts of the letter that was read oubt during those
resignations was yeah, it's it's somewhat disputed, So yeah, I mean,
I really it will be interesting to see just how
(12:06):
widespread those feelings are. It does sort of seem like
so that's that that that that that group has a
lived experienced a network. And they did name check in
the letter the g l N, which is the Green
Left Network, which is the sort of group of christ
which is a sort of group of of of left
(12:27):
wing Green members that grew out of the budget responsibility
rules drama in the opposition to that, they seem to
have attached themselves to that particular LIBT experience network because
lived there are the Green Party has many networks. If
I'm getting this wrong, tell me.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
No one else knows, not even the Greens. You are
the ultimate authority on this.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
And some of the networks are related to political ideology.
There's there's the Green Left Network, there's the d Growth Greens,
which believes that growth are problematic and we need to
relook at that. So and as a result of recent
constitutional changes that were made in twenty twenty two, lived
experience networks which relate to sort of facets of one's life,
like being PACIFICA or being young the Young Greens of Members,
(13:13):
or being part of the Rainbow community. They have quite
a powerful constitutional place, and political groupings like the Green
Left Network, which are shared political ideologies as opposed to
your lived experience, they seem to have been demphasized. So
it does appear that parts of that political some of
those political groupings having been demphasized by the constitutional or
(13:34):
disempowered by the constitutional changes, they seem to have attached
themselves into lived experience networks which through which they can
sort of re experience some of the power that they
once held. That there does, and that that left that
was readoubt did I think named the GLn because there
was they were attached to some of the feeling around
(13:55):
Elizabeth Kitty Q two. So it does, it does, Yeah,
it does. It appears that that is there is a
sort of proxy issue fight.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
Playing out complicated spider web that you've just.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
It is and I think I think that possibly they're
doing a candidate selection review as well. It does seem
like they're visting that is done on candidates, like I mean,
there isn't a lot on Darling Tanner that they would
have been able to see in twenty twenty, certainly in
twenty twenty when they selected the first time, and and
possibly also in twenty twenty three when they selected to
(14:29):
the second time. So it's not clear what could have
been done beyond her being more forthcoming and about what
she knew. It's not clear what an external review might
have been able to find. But but certainly it seems
like they're going to beef up their external review of
all candidates, which will be probably a good thing because certainly,
(14:52):
like if there was anything you could find on Darling
Tana before she became a candidate, then then you it
would be pretty difficult to see who being selected if
they knew, even if they knew even a shread of
what they know now, right, gosh, what a drama anything
else in the Greens Jason.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
No, No, I just think that it's I think they
will certainly adopt the waker jumping legislation. I think it's
going to be a bitter battle, and I'd love to
hear or be a fly on the wall on September
first when they discuss it. But I'm not convinced that
it's just going to go away as easily as they think.
I mean, this is a piece of legislation that's never
been tested. So far, we've had the likes of I mean,
(15:34):
I think Jaieee Ross was around before it came into law.
But you've got the likes of he blew up the
year eight convenient. But then you've got like Mika Fiery Gurev, Sharima,
Elizabeth Katy Ketty. You've got all these people that made
their home in Siberia in the back of the chamber.
Wasn't tested on any of them. And slightly ironically that
(15:54):
the most verment opponents of the legislation now will be
the ones to actually give it its first spin. I'm
interested to see how it actually is works in with
the employment law because technical line or Parliament's are completely different.
Speaker 3 (16:09):
People don't think they are employees. No, they're not covered.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Yeah, oh open season then.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Yeah, you can do what you like.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Yeah, so that yeah, they're not it's it's not at Yeah,
I think you're good. I don't think they come under
those predictions. And the other I mean she's the first
one because the other the MPs you cite, it all
blew up basically within twelve months in an election, which
which sort of took it off the table because you
know who cares the Jamie Lee is the last one
who blew up during an election or sorry before years
(16:40):
prior to election, and Simon Bridges, you know, opted not
to use that.
Speaker 2 (16:45):
Yeah. I think it was quite a good decision because
I remember.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
It was quite funny for Bridges as well, because he
led the opposition as the leader of the opposite to
do the jumping bill. Yeah, and then a few months
later he's the first person to be in a position
to use it.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah. But the thing with the Greens is if for
whatever reason it's not successful, it doesn't I mean, it
matters because they don't get another MP in. But Darling
Tana is going to become irrelevant soon. I remember when
I would give my right hand to see Jamie Lee
Ross walking by himself so I could stop him for questions.
I had the same experience with Good Sharma, with Mika Phaytidi,
(17:20):
all of these people. I was just I would sell
my firstborn son for a three minute interview with you,
and then like a week later you'd see them walking along.
He'd be like, actually, there's just this. This is irrelevant.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Now, this is the real I mean, And this was
again sighted at the AGM as one of the reasons
why one of the reasons for frustration with what the
Greens are doing is that people in opposition to using
the legislation believe that it is being done.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
For pecuniary reasons.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
The Greens, obviously being a smaller party the National with
somewhat shallower pockets, do lose parliamentary funding. That they believe
that that they thought they might have been a title
too until the election, so that is a concern that
they have, and obviously the faster they can get her
out of parliament, the more the more quickly they can
(18:10):
get their hands on that parliamentary funding. Again, obviously, the
votes don't really matter. They're going to lose your vote anyway,
unless you know there's a there's an unless there's a
members bill that comes down to the wire that does
not like this. There are any of them coming soon.
But but yes there is like there is a there
is a financial aspect of this. But I agree with you.
(18:30):
That's that's the thing. I mean, if you really, if
you really hold your principles quite tightly, you don't lose anything.
Because I completely agree with you. I remember sometimes just
pinching myself into twenty nineteen as Jamie Ross would come
across the bridge and no one would care because a
year prior we were all running like around not just Wellington,
(18:52):
but the country defined them. We thought he might be
in the Hawk's Bay, we thought it was an Auckland.
He drove the you know down the night. Were trying
to find him anywhere, and he rationed his time so
cleverly to stay in the media spotlight. But then after
a few weeks it was all over. And really you'd
have to say that in a few weeks time, Darling
(19:15):
is gone, right, the next big story of the week
pens pens, pens and needles, sticks and stones, breaking everyone's bones?
(19:40):
Where do you stand on the party in their pins
and on Laura's rask and wanted to cheer the subcommittee?
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Too many committees, too many committees. So I think this
whole week has been orchestrated by David Seymour and the
act Party to make a point the law. They were
clearly clearly wanting to turn the whole Laura Trusk thing
for listeners that are on a where Essentially what the
act Party claimed happened is that in a subcommittee, while
(20:08):
assessing submissions on Uraga Tamadiki's removal of seven double A.
Laura Trusk was musing whether she should be heading that subcommittee,
and allegedly she was told by and this has been
cooperated by other National and ACT members there, that maybe
Carmel Seppaloni would be better because submitters who would more
(20:31):
likely to be Marty or Pacifica would see themselves more
in her. Now, from what I understand, that has been
challenged somewhat by others that were there, saying well, she
just kind of wanted to practice her submitting either way.
She didn't end up. She went on to chair the
committee for for and Jerry Brown. So this was the
ACT Party wrote to the Speaker to say, essentially, this
(20:51):
is bad your you appear to be making or you
appear to be siding with racial this, that and the other.
He made a big song dance of it in the
house and so that's the first issue. The second is
the pins where the ACT Party and I'm sorry this
sounds so convoluted and stupid, but let me I'll get
through it just so everybody knows the context so we
can say how ridiculous it is. But the ACT Party
(21:13):
have been wearing lapel pins for years and years and years.
Absolutely no trouble with it. But it were a couple
of weeks prior it was Cameron Luxton from ACT and
James Meaga from National pointed out that Hannah Rapti might
be clerk from Tiparty Marti had some stickers on her
laptop that said Tiparty Marti on them. Parliament's rules say,
you know, allowed logos and anyway. Because of that, here's
(21:33):
where it gets interesting and sorry to bore everyone, but
as I understand it, the Business Committee, which is where
all the top head honchos from across the party's meet,
had a meeting with the Speaker and basically they said,
all right, if there is no political memorabilary at all,
nothing at all. And ACT actually said, hey, what about
our badges and they said including the badges the ACT
(21:55):
party still wore them, so they knew about this and
they just wanted to needle the Speaker because they wanted
to make a point about the law.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Trusk thing I heard. This is what you know, and
you can see why Jerry took the position that he did.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
If that was the.
Speaker 3 (22:07):
Undertaking that he was given.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Yeah, yeah, and I actually feel bad for Jerry throughout
this whole situation. I'm sorry, the right armorable mister Brownley,
free Jerry, Free Jerry, because he is his hands are tied.
He's not allowed to comment on these sorts of things.
So he could be sitting there being like everything that
is happening, everything they're saying is ridiculous for X y
Z reasons, But he can't comment. But the ACT Party
(22:29):
and David Seymour can come out and say, give these
long press conferences about how this is the worst thing
to happen since the last bad thing that happened to
the ACT Party.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Yeah, the pins, the pin it did seem to be
a storm a tea cup. I mean that the the
law Trusk thing seems to have been a point that
you would raise at the business. I mean they got
she got her way, like they got what they wanted
out of there. I don't you know, and I don't
think it's an unfear thing for to Party Marory to raise,
(23:01):
you know, and Stephen double A like.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
It is the.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Specific section that they're appealing, which is the treaty clause
has an obvious resonance with Maori communities. So you can
see what and and and and you know, like child
uplifts and the state care has a particular resonance for Maori.
So you can sort of see why to party Mary
(23:25):
would say, hey, look, you know, and light of that,
would it be better for this to occur where that
to party Mary raised there in a way that was
slightly you know, they can be slightly trolly sometimes, and
whether they raise and good faith it is sort of
something that only the people on that committee we know,
(23:47):
but it's it's certainly like a it's certainly a sensible
question for them to have asked. But obviously the committee
decided no, and so in you know, end of story
should be in the end of story.
Speaker 3 (24:01):
Yeah, well, but for all I'm not sure.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
I think I'm not sure whether Todd Stevenson made the
right calling, Like it seems a streets that you'd call
that privilege. It really does seem like a privilege issue.
Sorry that you question whether that was a you'd even
question whether where the privilege was at stake.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, like maybe if they if she'd been kicked off
in lieu of somebody else from an actual from a
proper select committee rather than a sub committee. But that
didn't happen, and.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Lord, the lesser, the lesson that Todd Stevens and the
Whip are free to write about the instant and the
incident did say that she was sort of shaken and shot,
so it does suggest that whatever the discussion was was
a fairly frank and heated one, So you do have
to wonder about that. But but but certainly, like I
think the position that departing money raises are totally legitimate
(24:47):
one and but it's also like equal equally like the
majority on the comedie and saide, look, thanks, but no thanks.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
We she think we don't.
Speaker 1 (24:55):
We think we'll take a color blind whatever approach to
whatever I make. Those are your political positions, and you
live and die by them. But I think like raising
it as an issue, because I mean, the idea that
you sort of can't talk about one like one's race
and what that how that affects your worldview and your skills.
(25:19):
The idea that that that that raising that could be
a question could breach privileges quite ridiculous, Like what are
we all going to pretend that that that that people's
races don't give them a particular worldview or not that
that that that the experiences that people have as a
(25:40):
result of of of the heritage, do not give them
a particular perspective on things as I guess what I'm
trying to say without getting canceled.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
And then and then and then that the issue where
do you stand on current sure and to party Mai
this this this conflict was in the house, I think
on social media.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Yeah, I think it's I mean the Tea Party Mari
are absolutely at fault here. I think Karen Shaw is.
I mean, they consistently playing the man not the ball
is problematic in this sort of scenario because I come
back to it when it comes to the abuse of
Wahini Mary in politics, who would be the first political
party to stand up and say this is awful and
(26:25):
it needs to stop. Tea Party Marty and we would
all cheer them on from the sidelines because they're correct.
But when they're the first ones to stand up and
make these horrific comments to Karen Shaw, I think that's
probably time that they have a little bit of self
reflection and the way that they're talking, particularly to her,
and just any sort of any Mardi MP that is
(26:46):
not on their side. I mean the way that media
amounta the way that one of their MP's was talking
about James Mega media amounta Kappakini on urn Z was
just horrible, saying things like, oh, well he's got a
Parky har boss, he's got this institutionalized racism because he's
(27:07):
in the National Party. I mean it just really who's
it's I don't feel like and I think the Nats,
the Mary Nats like Simon Bridges and Paula Bennett across
the years, who have consistently been targeted like this, would say, well,
who are you to question my fuckerpuppa?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
Yeah, I mean I do it does I probably would
be less inclined to say, to Party Marti's holy at fault,
but certainly they like Karen Truer clearly has you know.
Speaker 3 (27:40):
A it is a it is a personal kind of.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
Trauma relating to her upbringing and and stake here, and
like to Party Marty seem unusually callous and targeting that
and exploiting it, which is something I've never actually seen
in parliament. Working here, it's fairly robust. MPs wind each
other up. They try and look for chinks and their
(28:08):
armor because it's you know, that's sort of how you
get ahead fly. You look for weak spots, but you
tend to leave personal stuff out of it. I mean,
like things like I mean, there have been like relationship breakdowns,
marriage breakdowns in Parliament. Everyone knows which MP's are going
through them, but it's never mentioned in the you know,
(28:28):
in the houses a sort of something to In fact,
it usually means that the MPs go softer on each
other because they try they realize that one of their
colleagues is having a tough time.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
That sort of stuff, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
It shows that actually that the MP's are quite good
at playing there as to your point, are quite good
at playing the issue, not the not the person. In
this situation, it's slightly different obviously because the issue of
state care is one that Karen Sure is defending in Parliament,
so the issue and the person are the same thing.
(28:59):
But to partly do seem unusually callous and that they
know that this is a certain thing that in her identity,
They know that this is a certain thing that that
that that hurts, and they are constantly attacking it. I mean,
at the same time, I mean, I'm not sure how
the public feels about it. I don't I think the
public do get slightly sick of Tabarti maori and their
(29:23):
piety around issues like this. I also think that the
public sympathy for people's feelings is an inverse proportion to
how much those people are paid. So I'm not sure
whether care insuranspires a massive amount of sympathy on the
on the part of the public either, but you know,
we'll see. I obviously this is an issue. It's a
(29:48):
really tough one because the issue seven double a the
center which cultural herod whatever the treaty clause of the
antimody he Act, the extent to which ones once culture
and PAPA should into decisions around around state here. I mean,
I can see both arguments. Taking someone away from their
culture does that's problematic? At the same time, prioritizing someone's
(30:11):
culture at the at the expense of just getting them
out of a tough situation is also problematic. And it's
one It's an issue that certainly should be litigated in Parliament,
which it is being, but it seems like no one
has actually got the got the chops to litigate it
without hurling insults into one another, which is, you know,
somewhat dispiriting from a political observers standpoint. That that actually
(30:32):
are politics. This is an issue that is so motive
that our politics doesn't actually be able, isn't actually able
to resolve it in a way that is at all foolful.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
Do you think that the government side have been doing that?
Speaker 1 (30:45):
Though I haven't, I should say National, I mean Willow
Jean has taken Willigen Primus, who's prosecuting it for labor,
has taken things pretty you know, it's I think she's
taken it less farther than the Maori Party and Crisipit
said that he wanted to restrain it, so she's she
seems to have been, you know, keeping things relatively on
(31:06):
the right side of the line. And National and National
I think New Zealand first have been pretty New Zealand national,
but National have been like you see them in the
House and certainly you know like sometimes I mean X
(31:27):
wants to put the sort of color blind worldview on
New Zealand, which is which you know, it's quite a blunt.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Philosophy around race, which is you know.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Their pervi you know, they want votes to be able
to do that. Sometimes sometimes I wonder whether they are
that they have such a that bluntness as is, perhaps
it'll equipped for the thorniness and the nuance of It's
certainly like being being colorblind as as a as a
(32:00):
as a way of addressing racial issues in New Zealand.
But but certainly that the relentlessness with which they prosecuted
and and uh, and the lack of sympathy for the
way that that people who are on the on the
the coal face of of of were race leads to
(32:20):
worse socioeconomic outcomes. The lack of empathy for perhaps, uh,
people who who see the world that way, the lack
of empathy for people who held those views and and
what and what and why they might think that your
colorblind view is inadequate. I think there's a there's an
issue there. They both seem to be shouting at each other,
(32:42):
which I'm not sure was the most helpful resulting this issue. Well, Jason,
any any final thoughts. No, I just think that it's
who's gonna win the election.
Speaker 2 (32:53):
Uh, the bloody people of New Zealand. That's right, We're
gonna We're going to throw a democratic for around and
they're going to come up with the government that reflects that. Yes,
But yeah, I don't know. I don't see this issue
of race abating anytime soon. I think that TI Party
Mardi are probably going to dig their heels in if anything.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Whenston Peters was given us an envelope in which he
was told to put the who he thinks will win
the US presidential election, do you've I saw that style?
I mean, do we think when do we think he's
actually going to do it? And two who do you
think he'll you know, who do we think will win
the US presidential election?
Speaker 3 (33:26):
Trump? Probably?
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Yeah, I'm sort of feeling, you know, I'm getting bricksity vibes,
you know, fifty two forty eight. You know, I'm sort
of still erring on the side of Trump, but the
hair seems they have momental.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
Yeah, I'm just guarded. We don't want to see another
Biden Trump debate. That was just you couldn't look away.
It was like a car crash.
Speaker 3 (33:47):
I know, all right, Jason Walls, have a lovely weekend.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Oh thank you, my friend.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
To our listeners, thank you for listening. I hope the
voice training that I did.
Speaker 2 (34:01):
It kind of went out the window when you were
explaining that the intricate New Green parties to various different
webs It's terrible.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Thank you very much, for listening.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
As always, Ethan Sills is our executive producer that was
on the Tiles this week. Join us next week for
more on the tiles. Must be a local addition, so
I'm looking forward to a week half. I had to
say thank you very much hid it out.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.