March 2, 2025 • 24 mins
Commissioner Janine Donaldson is the Territorial Commander for The Salvation Army in New Zealand, Fiji, Tonga, and Samoa, and serves as the Chair of the Territorial Governance Board. With 38 years of experience in The Salvation Army, she has held senior leadership roles in New Zealand, Zambia, South Africa, Australia, and the UK. Janine's most recent role was at The Salvation Army’s International Headquarters, where she served as the General’s Representative for Mission Effectiveness.
Deeply passionate about Jesus and His hope for the world, Janine is committed to empowering young people to lead and serve. She believes strongly in the importance of partnerships and collaboration within local communities. Janine is married to Robert, and they are proud parents to three adult sons, two daughters-in-law, and two grandchildren.
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
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Real Conversation, Real Connection, It's Real Life with John Cowan
on News talks Ed B.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
JDA gooday, welcome to real life. Everyone knows the Salvation Army,
even those without any sort of church or religious background
over Sally's and are admiring of the work they do
of the poor, the homeless, people of addictions and so on.
They are one of the largest housing providers in the country,
and their family stores are in every town and you
(00:53):
won't have to talk to too many people before you
come across someone who's been helped by the Salvation Army
at some stage in their life. So it's a great
privilege to talk to their new leader, Commissioner Jeanine Donaldson. Welcome, Jeanine,
Thank you, it's wonderful to be with you, andratulations on
your recent appointment.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Thank you. Yeah, real privilege for me and the first woman.
So that's quite something.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Now that surprises me because you know, this is twenty
twenty five. I know churches, and then it surprises some
people to know that the Salvation Army is actually a church.
Are a little bit slower on some things. But the
Salvation Army has always had a tradition of being radical.
So how come it's taken so long for a woman
(01:38):
to get to the number one job in the country
any ideas.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
I think we've just been a bit slow off the mark,
and I think our leadership now is recognizing that.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Oh well, congratulations on catching up. Because the interesting thing
is I saw a thing written in eighteen ninety five
which affirmed the role of women in leadership within the
Salvation Army.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Yeah, it's always been our theology. We've just been a
bit slow reaching out to actually doing it well.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
The gap between practice and theology for a lot of
us is sometimes needs of it catching up. So it's
a big role because it's not just New Zealand, is it.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
No, it's not. It's Fiji, Tonga and some are so. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
So we're crossing a lot of cultures and are getting
into with our Pacific neighbors, which is which is wonderful.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
And the other thing which I think would be very
very challenging about your role is that you've got on
one side all these incredible social work projects that I
sort of alluded to it at the start, and yet
you're also now a denominational leader, the leader of this church.
(02:46):
I don't know how many what do you call them
soldiers in your in your in your denomination? About five thousand,
I guess, is it or something?
Speaker 4 (02:56):
There's quite a few soldiers a little bit less than that.
But also we have those that choose to work with
us as volunteers, those that give their time to the
Salvation Army, you know, regularly.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
So there's a there's a group.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
But I'm I'm a spiritual leader, which is which I
just love. I love the fact that that's recognized.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
So that's my role, so spiritual leader. And also but
you're also sitting on all these boards and leadership roles,
and this is a that's a broad horse to straddle.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Yeah, I'm chair of the governance board. And then my
other role is spiritual life development.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I guess if that's the water you've been swimming in
all your life, I suppose that's, you know, marrying up
the spiritual side and this and the social work side.
I guess that's that just seems very normal to you.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I guess, yeah, does to me.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Were you brought up in the army, I was my
parents are retired Salvation Army officers.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
So yeah, I was very much brought up into it,
but it was very much my own core. I felt
really cooled. I can't you know, I don't think when
I was.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
What does that mean? What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (04:05):
I felt just the spirit of the Lord speaking to
me now asking me to commit my life to officership.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Okay, right now, by the way, we're sort of crossing
into your Salvation Army jargon.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
I mean your.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Regular church members, you call them soldiers, and they don't
get baptized.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
They get dry cleaned, they.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Get they get drag clean, they get uniformed, and they
put on a uniform.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
Yes they can, Yes, they can choose to put on
a uniform. All many now use like what I'm wearing now,
where are logoed?
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Okay, yeah, it's also very popular.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And then your ministers become.
Speaker 5 (04:48):
Officers.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Yes, well, you have a particular call to the ministry
of officership, so to become a full time minister, which
means that you have the great privilege of not having
to actually work full time.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
But this is your work. Your work is the Lord full.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Time and you're appointable so you can be a point
to anywhere in the country or maybe into our into
our Pacific neighbors, or equally.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
You can be appointed around the world.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Okay, Now this is something which is again probably a
little bit mysterious to people that aren't Salvationists, this idea
that when you hear this call that you talked about,
you then come under the discipline of the church and
you get marching orders. And I've talked to people that
(05:40):
have grown up in Salvation Army families and they talked
about a particular date when their marching orders would come out,
and the tension in the home coming up to that time.
Are we going to be staying here or are we
going to be sent sent off to the Fiji to
right at old folks home or are we going to
be sent in the cargol to do some other work.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
That was the world you.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Grew up in, It is the world I grew up in.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Yes, I think we're a little bit a little bit
more flex will Now we definitely consider before we ask
people to move, We consider family stages and ages, and
they themselves have an opportunity before that to write whether
you know they actually do want to move or for
reasons that they really may want to stay somewhere, So
it's it's it's a little bit more fair in that way, right,
(06:28):
But it.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Is just interesting that that's part of your call that
you agree to be taking these orders. And were you
somewhat restricted also in who you could marry.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Well, you were because we could at the start only
marry offices. But now we have a policy for single spouse,
so it is you can you can marry someone else.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
Oh okay, I didn't know that change.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
That has also changed.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
It's not in every where the Salvation Army isn't everywhere
around the world. Each territory, you know, chooses whether that
policy will suit.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Them or not.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
So you went into this becoming an officer with your
eyes open. You'd see your parents do it, and you thought, yes,
I can live with that.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yes, I was born with roller skates on I call it.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
And I got to ask, did you play in a
brass band?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
No?
Speaker 4 (07:22):
No, no, I've never played, and funnily enough, I love it,
but no, no, it never appealed.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
It never appealed. Okay, but you married a man with
a euphodium I did, yeah, and yes, okay, So there's
still part of Salvation Army life, is it?
Speaker 5 (07:42):
The brass band thing.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
But it is, you know, it's not as popular, but
when you go around the world and I've had the
privilege of that, people just really love it. You know,
in the UK Christmas time, it's not Christmas until you've
had the band who doesn't love it?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
But but this is one of the things that you know,
because you're a spokesperson for the Salvation Army, I hope
you don't mind me putting these questions. I mean, William
Booth when he founded the Salvation Art.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
He was a radical.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
You know, he came out of the Methodist Church and
he used this radical music and uniforms and this idea
of discipline and things has that has that radicalism survived
in the DNA of the Salvation Army Church. Are you
still do you still consider yourself God's commandos?
Speaker 4 (08:32):
I think that's an excellent question. I think we're radical
in some ways.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
I think.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
In decades past we got a bit kind of middle
of the road, and I think we've really had to
grapple with that what are the issues facing the world,
And that's always been what we've been about. William Booth himself,
he saw people on the street, he saw those that
needed to be fair. He saw those that were sleeping
rough and said, what can we do about that? And
(09:00):
while we do that, while we feed people, while we listen,
while we find them a place to live, we speak
about Jesus. And I think, you know, it did become
We've always tried to.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Do that, but I do think that.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
We've grappled with that a little bit more in recent times.
You know, what, actually, where are we best to be,
Where are we best to apply ourselves, what other needs
of the countries we're in, And that varies.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Right, So I guess that's a challenge for any organization
that is growing up and that it's maturing. But some
of the people may say, ah, yes, the old ways
are best. But if we wanted to keep that radical
creative edge, I suppose that's always going to be a challenge.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Correct it is, And I just love it because we're
about the whole person holistically. You know, we're all made
up of many parts and we want to minister a
break to the whole person.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
And I love that about the Salvation Army.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
If you've just joined us, I'm talking to the new
leader of the Salvation Army in New Zealand, Commissioner Janine Donaldson,
and after the break, I want to talk about how
she's stains the DNABLE organization. Also how she sustains herself
in this role that she's in. This is real life.
I'm John Cown and you're listening to News Talk z.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
B intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
news Talks.
Speaker 6 (10:24):
It be I should have made I don't know, just
conte a bauble? You you would you rather hurt me
(10:44):
with that grumble?
Speaker 7 (10:47):
She love you.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
Welcome back to real life.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I'm John Cown and I'm talking with Commissioner Janine Donaldson,
who's a new Territorial Commander of Is that the right term, Janine?
It is Territorial Commander of New Zealand and Pacific and
or some parts of the Pacific, leading both the spiritual
and social work science of a Salvation Army. So it's
(11:29):
great to have you on board. We're listening to I
Will Survive. Why did you pick that?
Speaker 3 (11:35):
I just love it? I love it and there's the
essence with I can identify it.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
You are a survivor. Have there been times when you've
been wrung out in the work that you're doing where
you feel like you always wouldn't survive.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Yes, I think there's been part of.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Appointments that you've been so confronted with tragedy and desperation
that you've actually wondered. And that's it's faith that's got
me through that. Okay, Yeah, God.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Is with me right, because not all your works and
I know it is desperate needs in New Zealand, but
you have also been overseas for for your Salvation Army work.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
Correct, We've worked twelve years in Africa, about two and
a half in the UK and five and a half
in Australia, and then we also last you did a
couple of months in Zimbabwe between leadership. Between leaders there,
we were asked if we were just going and fill
in so to speak.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Okay, now in the role that you have in more
recent years, you've been in leadership role, But does that
also get you involved with people in the who are
in need? I mean, does it distance you too much
from the coal face as it were?
Speaker 4 (12:45):
I suppose in some ways yes and in some ways no,
because I've just we just love to get out and
to meet people into greet and to see what we're
actually doing. And I think that's really important that we
are actually at that coal face level that we actually
hear about needs because in these positions it is very
easy to become isolated. So for me personally, I like
(13:07):
nothing better than to be with people and to go
where all our different ministries are and to listen.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
And to learn.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Right, I know, if a Salvation Army has been involved
in all sorts of different types of community work and
mission work, has there been any particular type of work
the Army has done that has particularly resonated with you.
Have you been especially involved in, say housing, or work
with addictions or anything like that. Is there anything in
particular that you've been involved with.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
I think in Africa we're very much involved with education,
schools and hospitals, and so that for me has been
very very powerful experiences in my life.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Right, Okay, I can imagine someone being drawn into officership
in the Salvation Army like who were with a vision
of helping people, but you've been thrust now into administration.
You're administering some of the biggest housing projects in the country.
You have helped involved in a string of family stores
(14:12):
that are probably on every street, corner, every street in
towns and New Zealand. These are big jobs. Did you
feel like, did.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
You cope with that?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I mean, if you had to learn on the job,
do you get training and things like that?
Speaker 4 (14:27):
But at both there's training, there's lots of learning. And
I have the most fabulous.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Team of people.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
Yeah, and so many of that team they are the
ones on the ground helping and helping, understanding and moving
things forward. So in that way, I'm very fortunate have
a great team.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I know a lot of your work comes out of
the local core, out of a local churches, and I
don't know how many there are around in the country,
and I probably more than a hundred.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Just a bit less than that.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Okay, Well, so a lot of the work comes out
of that. But you also mentioned the people that are
volunteers and people that you employ specialists and people in
different roles, and a lot of them aren't part of
your church. A lot of them aren't Salvationists. And I'm
just wondering how you maintain mission focus when a lot
(15:17):
of the people aren't working, aren't in part of your church.
How do you maintain the DNA of the Salvation Army
when the work that you're doing has been delivered by
people but aren't part of your church.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Well, the people that are part of us.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
I think appreciate the values of the Salvation Army and
that's why they want to work for us. And I
love that. I love the fact that they want to
work for us because they love our values. They love
what we stand for and the work that we do.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Okay, do you have people placed strategically within the organization
to make sure What I'm trying to say is do
you actually monitor that DNA? Do you actually say, hey,
this has to come back into our inter line of
our Salvation Army values.
Speaker 8 (15:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
I think all that we do has to fit in
into our values. Whatever we are doing, we would look
at placing our values over it us fit can we
do it?
Speaker 5 (16:10):
Okay? So actually that's an active part of what you do.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Yes, it is right.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
One of the things that I'm sure you didn't sign
up for was having to tackle politicians. And now you're
a denominational leader and one that almost deliberately prods the
politicians with your annual State of a Nation address, which
I'm sure the politicians just just sort of it gets
up there, knows, I'm sure, because often it's pointing out
(16:37):
the failings and failures of policies. Is that something that
you're comfortable with that you are as someone who has
to prod the politicians, I mean.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
They have the job to do too, which I value
and appreciate.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Our job is to take the data and analysis and
be truthful about what we find and for the state
of the nation, that's what we do.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
We are just we are.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Presenting data and analysis and it should be for us
all as a nation to say, what are we doing right?
What do we obviously have to improve on? And I
think we all have a part to plan that. For sure,
are politicians ones that are making policies or changing things
or developing things, But for all of us, I think
(17:18):
we have an obligation to say, what's our part in this?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
How can we make this better?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, your report does go sometimes a little bit beyond that.
They'll say, you know, there are this number of people
here who are requiring support, and yet you're reducing the
amount of investment that the government is doing.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
So that's all included.
Speaker 5 (17:37):
It's a.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
But we're people of hope as well.
Speaker 8 (17:41):
You know.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
It's easy to say, and it has been like this
the last couple of years where it seems grim and
it actually is. But we're people of hope, and I
think I love that about the people of this nation
having worked away from it, and I'm a proud key.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
We We're generous people in this country, were actually.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Kind to people, and I really believe we want to
make a difference, and I believe that for the politicians
as well.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
You are such a stately person.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
You are coming back to New Zealand after many many
years away, and what's your feelings about re engaging in
New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I've just been up at why Tonguey.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
That was an incredible experience for me of hospitality and
warmth and generosity. I just think we have an amazing
country and having worked and served in many different countries
around the world under some quite difficult circumstances, what we
have in this country, we have so much to be
thankful for. And I'm really grateful that I'm been born
(18:46):
here and now I have this privilege of working alongside
many others leading the Salvation Army in this territory and
Fiji tongu in.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Sa are one of the things I sometimes wonder about
people and leadership like yourself, especially leaderships of a church
which has meant to sort of nurture you where do
you get inerture? Where do you get your friendships? If
you're if you walk into this environment which should be
something which is providing you for friendship and love and
(19:17):
everything like that, and you're the boss. Does that feel
lonely sometimes and especially when you're moving around the world.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Yes, it can be.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
And sometimes you know, when you're sitting down, no one
wants to join you at the table.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
You know that must be sopeful.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
You've got to be intentional.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
I've got lovely some lovely friends around the world, and
I just appreciate them. You've got to be intentional about
keeping in touch and actually taking also taking time out.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
I love to walk, I love to read, and I
like to have fun.
Speaker 5 (19:48):
So what do you do for fun? What recharges your batteries?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Well?
Speaker 4 (19:53):
I had a birthday last year and very kindly, my
family gave me my first lesson flying lesson.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
I also like to drive fast cars, but obviously not.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Actually where I am, just now where there's always a
lot of police and speed cameras.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Not a good looks.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I could just sort of hear a lot of preconceptions
clinging to the ground around the country. He's a Salvation
Army leader that likes to drive fast and is.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Well, why not? Why not?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Perhaps this is part of the radicalism we're talking about before.
And your husband he's involved in the Salvation Army as well.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
He is okay and does this. Does this role put
you make you his boss?
Speaker 4 (20:43):
He has he has an appointment of his own. We
have worked together for many years, but he has an appointment.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Of his own.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
So and he works actually for the UK. So no,
it doesn't really make me his boss. But he's incredibly
supportive and does a lot for me now of the
tasks that Patsy used to do, he's taken up very willingly.
Speaker 5 (21:03):
And you're you're a parent and grandmother.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
I believe it correct.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Three adults sons and two absolutely unbiasedly speaking of course
grandchildren who are in Australia right now.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
You grew up in a Salvationist family. Are there things
that as you've been doing your parenting and you're thinking, yeah,
I valued this, but I would like my children to
be protected from this aspect of it, or I'd like
them to actually see the better side of Salvation Army
life in this way on myspact, putting that very clearly,
(21:39):
were you conscious of the fact that you're in leadership
within a church. This is going to be impacting my.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Kids, oh, most definitely, and it's impacted them in a
really positive way. I think they were with us six
years in Zambia, but that was an incredible When you
get them together, they just talk about that. Even though
they're well adults now, they just talk about those experiences.
And there is negative impacts because unfortunately, even the church,
you know, we have people that aren't happy with this
(22:06):
and unhappy with that. I think it's our attitude that
should set us apart, you know, even when we're unhappy,
it's how we deal with that as Christians. It's what
that's what the world sees and I long for that
to be better.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Unfortunately, in leadership and roles like you're and you sometimes
become the focus of people's dissatisfaction. That's the satisfaction of God.
I can't blame. I can't argue with God, but I'll
argue with that person. But it's been great talking with you, Janine.
I wish you and the Salvation Army every success and
the wonderful work that you're doing around the country.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Thank you very much for all your time.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Appreciate it and thank you for being part of real life,
and we'll go out on another piece of music that
you've picked for us, which was a bit of a surprise.
I don't know if anyone's ever picked us bit of
music before, Jeanine.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
Why have you picked the national Anthem?
Speaker 4 (22:52):
I love the national anthem because we sing in the
tongue of our country.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
And then I love the words of it. I just
think and.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
As you go through, we never sing all the verses,
but they're just so powerful to me.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
It's a beautiful country and that anthem reflects it.
Speaker 8 (23:22):
Yd Crazy
Speaker 1 (24:03):
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Speaker 2 (00:32):
JDA gooday, welcome to real life. Everyone knows the Salvation Army,
even those without any sort of church or religious background
over Sally's and are admiring of the work they do
of the poor, the homeless, people of addictions and so on.
They are one of the largest housing providers in the country,
and their family stores are in every town and you
(00:53):
won't have to talk to too many people before you
come across someone who's been helped by the Salvation Army
at some stage in their life. So it's a great
privilege to talk to their new leader, Commissioner Jeanine Donaldson. Welcome, Jeanine,
Thank you, it's wonderful to be with you, andratulations on
your recent appointment.
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Thank you. Yeah, real privilege for me and the first woman.
So that's quite something.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Now that surprises me because you know, this is twenty
twenty five. I know churches, and then it surprises some
people to know that the Salvation Army is actually a church.
Are a little bit slower on some things. But the
Salvation Army has always had a tradition of being radical.
So how come it's taken so long for a woman
(01:38):
to get to the number one job in the country
any ideas.
Speaker 4 (01:41):
I think we've just been a bit slow off the mark,
and I think our leadership now is recognizing that.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
Oh well, congratulations on catching up. Because the interesting thing
is I saw a thing written in eighteen ninety five
which affirmed the role of women in leadership within the
Salvation Army.
Speaker 4 (01:58):
Yeah, it's always been our theology. We've just been a
bit slow reaching out to actually doing it well.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
The gap between practice and theology for a lot of
us is sometimes needs of it catching up. So it's
a big role because it's not just New Zealand, is it.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
No, it's not. It's Fiji, Tonga and some are so. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (02:18):
So we're crossing a lot of cultures and are getting
into with our Pacific neighbors, which is which is wonderful.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
And the other thing which I think would be very
very challenging about your role is that you've got on
one side all these incredible social work projects that I
sort of alluded to it at the start, and yet
you're also now a denominational leader, the leader of this church.
(02:46):
I don't know how many what do you call them
soldiers in your in your in your denomination? About five thousand,
I guess, is it or something?
Speaker 4 (02:56):
There's quite a few soldiers a little bit less than that.
But also we have those that choose to work with
us as volunteers, those that give their time to the
Salvation Army, you know, regularly.
Speaker 3 (03:08):
So there's a there's a group.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
But I'm I'm a spiritual leader, which is which I
just love. I love the fact that that's recognized.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
So that's my role, so spiritual leader. And also but
you're also sitting on all these boards and leadership roles,
and this is a that's a broad horse to straddle.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Yeah, I'm chair of the governance board. And then my
other role is spiritual life development.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
I guess if that's the water you've been swimming in
all your life, I suppose that's, you know, marrying up
the spiritual side and this and the social work side.
I guess that's that just seems very normal to you.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
I guess, yeah, does to me.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Were you brought up in the army, I was my
parents are retired Salvation Army officers.
Speaker 3 (03:54):
So yeah, I was very much brought up into it,
but it was very much my own core. I felt
really cooled. I can't you know, I don't think when
I was.
Speaker 5 (04:02):
What does that mean? What does that mean?
Speaker 4 (04:05):
I felt just the spirit of the Lord speaking to
me now asking me to commit my life to officership.
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Okay, right now, by the way, we're sort of crossing
into your Salvation Army jargon.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
I mean your.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Regular church members, you call them soldiers, and they don't
get baptized.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
They get dry cleaned, they.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Get they get drag clean, they get uniformed, and they
put on a uniform.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
Yes they can, Yes, they can choose to put on
a uniform. All many now use like what I'm wearing now,
where are logoed?
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Okay, yeah, it's also very popular.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
And then your ministers become.
Speaker 5 (04:48):
Officers.
Speaker 4 (04:50):
Yes, well, you have a particular call to the ministry
of officership, so to become a full time minister, which
means that you have the great privilege of not having
to actually work full time.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
But this is your work. Your work is the Lord full.
Speaker 4 (05:04):
Time and you're appointable so you can be a point
to anywhere in the country or maybe into our into
our Pacific neighbors, or equally.
Speaker 3 (05:15):
You can be appointed around the world.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Okay, Now this is something which is again probably a
little bit mysterious to people that aren't Salvationists, this idea
that when you hear this call that you talked about,
you then come under the discipline of the church and
you get marching orders. And I've talked to people that
(05:40):
have grown up in Salvation Army families and they talked
about a particular date when their marching orders would come out,
and the tension in the home coming up to that time.
Are we going to be staying here or are we
going to be sent sent off to the Fiji to
right at old folks home or are we going to
be sent in the cargol to do some other work.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
That was the world you.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Grew up in, It is the world I grew up in.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Yes, I think we're a little bit a little bit
more flex will Now we definitely consider before we ask
people to move, We consider family stages and ages, and
they themselves have an opportunity before that to write whether
you know they actually do want to move or for
reasons that they really may want to stay somewhere, So
it's it's it's a little bit more fair in that way, right,
(06:28):
But it.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Is just interesting that that's part of your call that
you agree to be taking these orders. And were you
somewhat restricted also in who you could marry.
Speaker 4 (06:40):
Well, you were because we could at the start only
marry offices. But now we have a policy for single spouse,
so it is you can you can marry someone else.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
Oh okay, I didn't know that change.
Speaker 3 (06:52):
That has also changed.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
It's not in every where the Salvation Army isn't everywhere
around the world. Each territory, you know, chooses whether that
policy will suit.
Speaker 3 (07:02):
Them or not.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
So you went into this becoming an officer with your
eyes open. You'd see your parents do it, and you thought, yes,
I can live with that.
Speaker 3 (07:12):
Yes, I was born with roller skates on I call it.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
And I got to ask, did you play in a
brass band?
Speaker 3 (07:21):
No?
Speaker 4 (07:22):
No, no, I've never played, and funnily enough, I love it,
but no, no, it never appealed.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
It never appealed. Okay, but you married a man with
a euphodium I did, yeah, and yes, okay, So there's
still part of Salvation Army life, is it?
Speaker 5 (07:42):
The brass band thing.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
But it is, you know, it's not as popular, but
when you go around the world and I've had the
privilege of that, people just really love it. You know,
in the UK Christmas time, it's not Christmas until you've
had the band who doesn't love it?
Speaker 2 (07:56):
But but this is one of the things that you know,
because you're a spokesperson for the Salvation Army, I hope
you don't mind me putting these questions. I mean, William
Booth when he founded the Salvation Art.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
He was a radical.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
You know, he came out of the Methodist Church and
he used this radical music and uniforms and this idea
of discipline and things has that has that radicalism survived
in the DNA of the Salvation Army Church. Are you
still do you still consider yourself God's commandos?
Speaker 4 (08:32):
I think that's an excellent question. I think we're radical
in some ways.
Speaker 3 (08:37):
I think.
Speaker 4 (08:39):
In decades past we got a bit kind of middle
of the road, and I think we've really had to
grapple with that what are the issues facing the world,
And that's always been what we've been about. William Booth himself,
he saw people on the street, he saw those that
needed to be fair. He saw those that were sleeping
rough and said, what can we do about that? And
(09:00):
while we do that, while we feed people, while we listen,
while we find them a place to live, we speak
about Jesus. And I think, you know, it did become
We've always tried to.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
Do that, but I do think that.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
We've grappled with that a little bit more in recent times.
You know, what, actually, where are we best to be,
Where are we best to apply ourselves, what other needs
of the countries we're in, And that varies.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Right, So I guess that's a challenge for any organization
that is growing up and that it's maturing. But some
of the people may say, ah, yes, the old ways
are best. But if we wanted to keep that radical
creative edge, I suppose that's always going to be a challenge.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Correct it is, And I just love it because we're
about the whole person holistically. You know, we're all made
up of many parts and we want to minister a
break to the whole person.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
And I love that about the Salvation Army.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
If you've just joined us, I'm talking to the new
leader of the Salvation Army in New Zealand, Commissioner Janine Donaldson,
and after the break, I want to talk about how
she's stains the DNABLE organization. Also how she sustains herself
in this role that she's in. This is real life.
I'm John Cown and you're listening to News Talk z.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
B intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
news Talks.
Speaker 6 (10:24):
It be I should have made I don't know, just
conte a bauble? You you would you rather hurt me
(10:44):
with that grumble?
Speaker 7 (10:47):
She love you.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
Welcome back to real life.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I'm John Cown and I'm talking with Commissioner Janine Donaldson,
who's a new Territorial Commander of Is that the right term, Janine?
It is Territorial Commander of New Zealand and Pacific and
or some parts of the Pacific, leading both the spiritual
and social work science of a Salvation Army. So it's
(11:29):
great to have you on board. We're listening to I
Will Survive. Why did you pick that?
Speaker 3 (11:35):
I just love it? I love it and there's the
essence with I can identify it.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
You are a survivor. Have there been times when you've
been wrung out in the work that you're doing where
you feel like you always wouldn't survive.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Yes, I think there's been part of.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
Appointments that you've been so confronted with tragedy and desperation
that you've actually wondered. And that's it's faith that's got
me through that. Okay, Yeah, God.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Is with me right, because not all your works and
I know it is desperate needs in New Zealand, but
you have also been overseas for for your Salvation Army work.
Speaker 4 (12:13):
Correct, We've worked twelve years in Africa, about two and
a half in the UK and five and a half
in Australia, and then we also last you did a
couple of months in Zimbabwe between leadership. Between leaders there,
we were asked if we were just going and fill
in so to speak.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
Okay, now in the role that you have in more
recent years, you've been in leadership role, But does that
also get you involved with people in the who are
in need? I mean, does it distance you too much
from the coal face as it were?
Speaker 4 (12:45):
I suppose in some ways yes and in some ways no,
because I've just we just love to get out and
to meet people into greet and to see what we're
actually doing. And I think that's really important that we
are actually at that coal face level that we actually
hear about needs because in these positions it is very
easy to become isolated. So for me personally, I like
(13:07):
nothing better than to be with people and to go
where all our different ministries are and to listen.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
And to learn.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Right, I know, if a Salvation Army has been involved
in all sorts of different types of community work and
mission work, has there been any particular type of work
the Army has done that has particularly resonated with you.
Have you been especially involved in, say housing, or work
with addictions or anything like that. Is there anything in
particular that you've been involved with.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
I think in Africa we're very much involved with education,
schools and hospitals, and so that for me has been
very very powerful experiences in my life.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Right, Okay, I can imagine someone being drawn into officership
in the Salvation Army like who were with a vision
of helping people, but you've been thrust now into administration.
You're administering some of the biggest housing projects in the country.
You have helped involved in a string of family stores
(14:12):
that are probably on every street, corner, every street in
towns and New Zealand. These are big jobs. Did you
feel like, did.
Speaker 5 (14:22):
You cope with that?
Speaker 2 (14:23):
I mean, if you had to learn on the job,
do you get training and things like that?
Speaker 4 (14:27):
But at both there's training, there's lots of learning. And
I have the most fabulous.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
Team of people.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
Yeah, and so many of that team they are the
ones on the ground helping and helping, understanding and moving
things forward. So in that way, I'm very fortunate have
a great team.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
I know a lot of your work comes out of
the local core, out of a local churches, and I
don't know how many there are around in the country,
and I probably more than a hundred.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Just a bit less than that.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Okay, Well, so a lot of the work comes out
of that. But you also mentioned the people that are
volunteers and people that you employ specialists and people in
different roles, and a lot of them aren't part of
your church. A lot of them aren't Salvationists. And I'm
just wondering how you maintain mission focus when a lot
(15:17):
of the people aren't working, aren't in part of your church.
How do you maintain the DNA of the Salvation Army
when the work that you're doing has been delivered by
people but aren't part of your church.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Well, the people that are part of us.
Speaker 4 (15:30):
I think appreciate the values of the Salvation Army and
that's why they want to work for us. And I
love that. I love the fact that they want to
work for us because they love our values. They love
what we stand for and the work that we do.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Okay, do you have people placed strategically within the organization
to make sure What I'm trying to say is do
you actually monitor that DNA? Do you actually say, hey,
this has to come back into our inter line of
our Salvation Army values.
Speaker 8 (15:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
I think all that we do has to fit in
into our values. Whatever we are doing, we would look
at placing our values over it us fit can we
do it?
Speaker 5 (16:10):
Okay? So actually that's an active part of what you do.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Yes, it is right.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
One of the things that I'm sure you didn't sign
up for was having to tackle politicians. And now you're
a denominational leader and one that almost deliberately prods the
politicians with your annual State of a Nation address, which
I'm sure the politicians just just sort of it gets
up there, knows, I'm sure, because often it's pointing out
(16:37):
the failings and failures of policies. Is that something that
you're comfortable with that you are as someone who has
to prod the politicians, I mean.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
They have the job to do too, which I value
and appreciate.
Speaker 4 (16:50):
Our job is to take the data and analysis and
be truthful about what we find and for the state
of the nation, that's what we do.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
We are just we are.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Presenting data and analysis and it should be for us
all as a nation to say, what are we doing right?
What do we obviously have to improve on? And I
think we all have a part to plan that. For sure,
are politicians ones that are making policies or changing things
or developing things, But for all of us, I think
(17:18):
we have an obligation to say, what's our part in this?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
How can we make this better?
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, your report does go sometimes a little bit beyond that.
They'll say, you know, there are this number of people
here who are requiring support, and yet you're reducing the
amount of investment that the government is doing.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
So that's all included.
Speaker 5 (17:37):
It's a.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
But we're people of hope as well.
Speaker 8 (17:41):
You know.
Speaker 4 (17:42):
It's easy to say, and it has been like this
the last couple of years where it seems grim and
it actually is. But we're people of hope, and I
think I love that about the people of this nation
having worked away from it, and I'm a proud key.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
We We're generous people in this country, were actually.
Speaker 4 (18:01):
Kind to people, and I really believe we want to
make a difference, and I believe that for the politicians
as well.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
You are such a stately person.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
You are coming back to New Zealand after many many
years away, and what's your feelings about re engaging in
New Zealand.
Speaker 3 (18:21):
I've just been up at why Tonguey.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
That was an incredible experience for me of hospitality and
warmth and generosity. I just think we have an amazing
country and having worked and served in many different countries
around the world under some quite difficult circumstances, what we
have in this country, we have so much to be
thankful for. And I'm really grateful that I'm been born
(18:46):
here and now I have this privilege of working alongside
many others leading the Salvation Army in this territory and
Fiji tongu in.
Speaker 2 (18:54):
Sa are one of the things I sometimes wonder about
people and leadership like yourself, especially leaderships of a church
which has meant to sort of nurture you where do
you get inerture? Where do you get your friendships? If
you're if you walk into this environment which should be
something which is providing you for friendship and love and
(19:17):
everything like that, and you're the boss. Does that feel
lonely sometimes and especially when you're moving around the world.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Yes, it can be.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
And sometimes you know, when you're sitting down, no one
wants to join you at the table.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
You know that must be sopeful.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
You've got to be intentional.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
I've got lovely some lovely friends around the world, and
I just appreciate them. You've got to be intentional about
keeping in touch and actually taking also taking time out.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
I love to walk, I love to read, and I
like to have fun.
Speaker 5 (19:48):
So what do you do for fun? What recharges your batteries?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
Well?
Speaker 4 (19:53):
I had a birthday last year and very kindly, my
family gave me my first lesson flying lesson.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
I also like to drive fast cars, but obviously not.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Actually where I am, just now where there's always a
lot of police and speed cameras.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
Not a good looks.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
I could just sort of hear a lot of preconceptions
clinging to the ground around the country. He's a Salvation
Army leader that likes to drive fast and is.
Speaker 5 (20:25):
Well, why not? Why not?
Speaker 2 (20:26):
Perhaps this is part of the radicalism we're talking about before.
And your husband he's involved in the Salvation Army as well.
Speaker 5 (20:34):
He is okay and does this. Does this role put
you make you his boss?
Speaker 4 (20:43):
He has he has an appointment of his own. We
have worked together for many years, but he has an appointment.
Speaker 3 (20:49):
Of his own.
Speaker 4 (20:50):
So and he works actually for the UK. So no,
it doesn't really make me his boss. But he's incredibly
supportive and does a lot for me now of the
tasks that Patsy used to do, he's taken up very willingly.
Speaker 5 (21:03):
And you're you're a parent and grandmother.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
I believe it correct.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Three adults sons and two absolutely unbiasedly speaking of course
grandchildren who are in Australia right now.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
You grew up in a Salvationist family. Are there things
that as you've been doing your parenting and you're thinking, yeah,
I valued this, but I would like my children to
be protected from this aspect of it, or I'd like
them to actually see the better side of Salvation Army
life in this way on myspact, putting that very clearly,
(21:39):
were you conscious of the fact that you're in leadership
within a church. This is going to be impacting my.
Speaker 4 (21:44):
Kids, oh, most definitely, and it's impacted them in a
really positive way. I think they were with us six
years in Zambia, but that was an incredible When you
get them together, they just talk about that. Even though
they're well adults now, they just talk about those experiences.
And there is negative impacts because unfortunately, even the church,
you know, we have people that aren't happy with this
(22:06):
and unhappy with that. I think it's our attitude that
should set us apart, you know, even when we're unhappy,
it's how we deal with that as Christians. It's what
that's what the world sees and I long for that
to be better.
Speaker 5 (22:19):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
Unfortunately, in leadership and roles like you're and you sometimes
become the focus of people's dissatisfaction. That's the satisfaction of God.
I can't blame. I can't argue with God, but I'll
argue with that person. But it's been great talking with you, Janine.
I wish you and the Salvation Army every success and
the wonderful work that you're doing around the country.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Thank you very much for all your time.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Appreciate it and thank you for being part of real life,
and we'll go out on another piece of music that
you've picked for us, which was a bit of a surprise.
I don't know if anyone's ever picked us bit of
music before, Jeanine.
Speaker 5 (22:50):
Why have you picked the national Anthem?
Speaker 4 (22:52):
I love the national anthem because we sing in the
tongue of our country.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
And then I love the words of it. I just
think and.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
As you go through, we never sing all the verses,
but they're just so powerful to me.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
It's a beautiful country and that anthem reflects it.
Speaker 8 (23:22):
Yd Crazy
Speaker 1 (24:03):
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