February 2, 2025 • 23 mins
Jonathan Fletcher has extensive experience in fundraising, partnerships, and business development, with a focus on supporting vulnerable children. Since March 2013, he has worked with World Vision New Zealand in roles including Head of Fundraising Partnerships and Head of Church Partnerships, where he managed church collaborations. Prior to this, Jonathan held the position of Business Development Manager at The Co-operative Bank and worked in various roles at GE Capital, eventually becoming Branch Manager, where he was responsible for sales and team management. He holds a BA in Political Studies and Management Studies from The University of Auckland.
Jonathan is passionate about his work as a humanitarian and has gained a unique global perspective through his extensive international travel. He lives in Upper Hutt.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to a podcast from News Talk sed B.
Follow this and our wide range of podcasts now on iHeartRadio,
Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News Talk zed B.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Gooday, welcome to Real Life. I'm John Cowan and one
of the things I'm glad this show has been able
to do over the years is bring to light a
side of New Zealand life that gets far too little attention.
And that's the good stuff, the generous and kind stuff
that just doesn't make for good attention grabbing news headlines,
but it helps make this nation one that we can
(00:46):
be proud of. And my guest tonight has been involved
in that type of good stuff. He's been involved in
the leadership of World Vision for many years. Johono Fletcher.
Welcome John, Oh, thank you John.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
It's are a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
How are you going?
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Very good? Glad to be an Auckland.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
You had a good summer.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Yeah, we had four weeks. I had four weeks holiday
and didn't leave. We listed in Wellington the whole time.
I think the first Christmas we've had in Wallington where
we had a staycation.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Right now, the look I nearly said something unflattering about
people who want to stay at Wellington must go to
a lot of other places. But no, look, Wellington, that's great,
But you've been in a lot of places where probably
you probably wouldn't want to have a holiday. Where have
you been too, just lately?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Well, my last trip was in December to the Solomon Islands, Yes, which,
to be fair, is probably one of the most beautiful
countries I've ever visited.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Right, so that's not you know, yeah, that is a
beautiful place. And where else have you been?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
So prior to that? In August I had a I
was in Uganda for a week and then two weeks
in Malawi a little harder or a lot hard well,
not a little both both very poor countries. A lot
of people, a lot of New Zealanders wouldn't recognize that
Solomon Islands and Vana are two of the poorest countries
in the world. We always think of, you know, maybe
(02:02):
more obvious places parts of Africa or Asia. But yeah,
it's a challenge and.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
World Vision is involved in all these places and your
role with them it's often involves taking people to these places.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Yeah, it's it's a it's a it's a I mean, you're.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Not a tour guide. No, I don't want to accuse
you of sort of disaster tourism or poverty tourism, or
some ghoulish fascination with staring at people that are hungry,
or and I think with that same type of sex
fascination that people have as they drive slowly past the
car wreck. So who are you taking to these places?
And why?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Well, look, I think the reality is that you're one
hundred percent right. We do not want poverty tourism. I
couldn't think of anything worse than turning up a bus
and trapping a whole lot of kiwis through a village
somewhere and gorulishly looking as you put it. So, we
do a lot of work before we travel. And one
of the key resources we use as a resource called
(02:58):
when helping hurts, and it really teaches from a certainly
from a faith perspective, from a Christian perspective, are why
are we going in the first place? And could that
money be used for something much better? So if that's
the case, how do we get the most out of
this trip to make sure that you make a difference
in the world from this trip rather than just see
and then come back and be the same as you
(03:19):
were when you're left.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So the people you're taking are going to be white,
priming the pump for donors back here and things.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
It could be a variety. So for example, the trip
to the Solomon Islands, it was with our Youth Ambassadors,
So they're the ones who are going to the eighteen
year olds that are coming back to New Zealand this
year and we'll be on high school and primary school
stages all over the country promoting the World Vision forty
Hour Challenge. So it's about giving them an experience that
they can talk authentically about. It's also about gathering the
(03:48):
content we need to be able to show young New
Zealanders what the world looks like. On other trips, for example,
Uganda was with a radio station who were doing a
large fundraising bush and Malawi was with a church that
have given a lot to Worldvision and in the particular
to this community. But New Zealand is understanding of poverty
(04:08):
is often quite primitive and that was one of the
things that struck me when I came to Wild Vision.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Well, what do you mean by primitive? What is a
what is ignorant?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Now?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Understanding of poslible.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Maybe simplistic is the word. From my perspective. When I
came to Wilvision. You know, my background was in finance,
and the way I saw the world and saw poverty
was very much the way most New Zealanders do. It's
an economic thing, so we talk about when we talk
about poverty, we're usually talking about money. When I came
to wil Vision, I was constantly grappling with that thinking
that doesn't solve everything. Not all suffering is related to money.
(04:44):
It can be a big part, it's a huge part
of the solution, but it's got to be more to it.
So I started reading, particularly Bryant Meier's book Walking with
the Poor or Jaikuma Christian's book The God of the
Empty Handed, and it talks about defined redefining poverty. Because
we've defined poverty wrong, then we solve it wrong. So
if we define poverty is not enough stuff, then the
(05:06):
answer is to give them more stuff. From a Christian perspective,
and certainly in Christian development, we would say that poverty
is about broken relationships at its core. So if I
have a broken relationship with God, with myself, with creation,
with others, then that brokenness is a form of poverty,
and broken people create unjust systems.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Okay, isn't that that sounds like it could be almost
like victim shaming. Oh, they're poor because they deserve it,
as if you know, all they need to do is
get their heads and hearts sorted out and they'll be right. Well,
but I'm sure that's not what you're saying. You know,
it's played the Devil's advocate. No, just let me just
fit my horns underneath my headphones again.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
But it does fit into the narrative that we to
optically had most I would say most New Zealanders fit
into two camps. And I don't like the left right
political continue I think it's become a weapon that's been unhelpful.
But I do think that some New Zealanders would say
that the poor people are poor because they're lazy. Others
would say people are poor because they're victims. Both have
(06:07):
elements of truth, but are largely wrong. The poor are
not victims, and when we treat them like victims, we
diminish their dignity. We believe that everyone was made in
the image of God, so everyone has an inherent worth
and value. And in fact, there was some research done
a few years ago by the UN, and they studied
thousands and thousands of what we call low income people
are poor people, and we asked them what was your
(06:30):
greatest need and their greatest but they didn't. Number one
on the list was not food, It was not water,
it was not healthcare, it wasn't education. It was dignity.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Okay, Well that brings me back to your taking people
over there, and how do these people feel about being
looked at? You know, do they feel like they're on show?
How does that impact their sense of dignity?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Well, that's not how we go. So when we go,
we're not going there. And this is part of what
the pre training is about, it saying we're not going
there just to look. We're going there to understand our
own poverty. Because when we get there, what most people
come back with. And so, man, they had a joy
that I couldn't understand despite the natural poverty. I could
see there was a joy that I couldn't understand, or
(07:19):
a hope or maybe it's different in different context.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Now I was going to ask you what is it
that surprises them? Because we can all go online and
look at YouTube videos of deprivation and poverty and places
needing more development and things. So what is it that
the people that you take there, what do they get
that they couldn't get from a good report, a good book,
(07:43):
a good video.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Yeah, well, it depends on the age, it depends on
the individual. So when I take young people to the
vieldin I just took my middle son with me on
the last trip to Malawi, was nineteen at the time,
and I know how important that was for me to
see this, to see those element parts of the world
as a seventeen year old, And you don't always know
it at the time, but then you start to see
how it affected the rest of your life. I think
(08:06):
when you're a young person, there's a sense of who
they are in the context of the world where they
maybe have more than they thought and have less than
they thought.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Okay, you got to unpack then, yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah, So the young people come back and they realize, okay,
I'm a lot wealthier. The hardest thing is I've had
a few that have come back landed in New Zealand
and December and their mothers picked them up not knowing.
You know, the family doesn't know what the journey they've
been on. Often they've come back and they've been packed
up and taken straight to the mall to do Christmas shopping,
and they some of them end up on a seat
and tears in the mall, like how do I reconcile? I?
(08:45):
You know, our family are so wealthy compared to the
families I've just met and the young people have just met.
So there's that element. The other element they start to
see is they had a connection to their families that
I didn't have. They have a community that I wish
I had. They don't seem to have the same mental
health struggles that I have. They're rich in here and
(09:05):
I'm rich and here, and how it's not all one
or the other. And so yeah, that it widens the
understanding of what poverty really is.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Okay, It's interesting that reaction when people come back, and
I'm just wondering, you know, how do you feel when
you come back to New Zealand, to our easy, affluent,
safe society after being in these places where even say
fresh water is a luxury that can't afford.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, my wife and my daughter in particular love to shop,
and so every now and then I'll get a comment like,
don't bring your welvish and stuff home here. You know,
when I'm curbing their expenditure. My wife ends a lot
more than I do, so I have only limited authority
when it goes. That's that's the challenge. I'm the one
(09:49):
who walks through them all with an ethical clothing guide
or whatever. And the kids hate it.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I remember Tony campolla Was would say, you know, those
kids would hate it when you'd come back from Haiti
and they say, oh, Dad, were some new shoes. You shoes?
You know what the gets over there are wearing. So
you get a bit, they get a bit of that
from you something.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
But I was imperfect as the next person I have.
You know, there's what you know in your head and
then there's your natural impulses. So okay, there was a
conundrum there.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Hey, let's I just want to get back to the
stuff that World Vision is actually doing there. And you
say you're in Malawi and I was reading a little
bit about where you were, and it was actually wrapping
up a project that World Vision has been doing for
eighteen years. I think it was. And I think most
people probably think of World Vision in terms of sponsoring
(10:39):
a child sort of a one to one connection of
helping one person connecting and helping one other person on
the other side of the world. But World Vision does projects.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Well and those are connected. So that is often the
way we think about it as a sort of direct
benefit model. Wildvision hasn't worked that way for a long
time in that sense. So the child is there's a
real child on the other end, yes, and it is
a child that you have on your fridge, and that
child is an abassador for their community. There are some
particular benefits that that child gets by being sponsored. The
(11:13):
biggest benefit and this will make all of your child
sponsor listeners feel guilty. I'm sure because I'm one of those.
Is the letters that you write or don't write, have
a profound effect on their life. We have stories all
of them. We have a lot of staff who are
ex sponsored children, and they talk about the fact that
somebody was somebody cared, somebody was asking about their education.
I better study harder, I better push through some challenges
(11:35):
because it's important.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Really, I never wrote to any sponsors you and most
of us, I'll just crawl under the desk and feel guilty.
But they have them on our fridge.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, And so that's one of the big benefits. There
are other things we have ninety DH checks and other
things that the sponsor child gets, but primarily it's their
community that benefits. And so you know, it would be
very hard to put a well into a location and
then just give the sponsored children a swipe card or something.
Only they can use it because.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
They're the sponsored child. So you'll be working, so it
doesn't go all direct lead of a child, It goes
to their whole community. Correct, Yeah, and how do you
how do you get to the point where you're saying, right,
we're finishing this community? Would seem to be the case
in this visit that you're doing. Is there some ceremony
handing over to a government or a master or something.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
It's actually, honestly, John, it's one of the best parts
of the job is because it's like, do we achieve
something here?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
What did you achieve?
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah? Isn't poverty supposed to be an unbeatable problem? And
so to be able to come and say when we
start in a community, it's usually a ten or fifteen
year program, So we think in ten to fifteen years,
if the community can't now carry on in their own
we've failed. If we haven't equipped them. If we're there forever,
then that's not a win. So it always as an
end date. Sometimes disasters happen or things happen that mean.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
They're just ended.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
So eighteen years we were going to the choosing party.
It's a handing over of some of the assets that
we've built to the local community or to the local council.
But the best thing out of that meeting was the
amount of people that came to us. Thank you, World Vision,
but we don't need you anymore.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
We've got this look just to show that I've been
interested in talk to you. I went on trackdown I
think the Lasser News from Malawi, and then it's quoting
here that Derby said ninety eight percent of the people
in the area now have access to clean water. One
hundred and twenty nine bore holes went drawn. In twenty thirteen,
(13:32):
forty nine percent of the children were stunted in their
development and growth, and that's been reduced down to just
a fraction of that. And that they've built a girls
hostel and so there's a whole lot of resilient stuff
there being built into a whole community.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, and a big part that's not in there is say.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Look, at that you didn't even have to say that yourself,
so you know it's hey, we got to take a break.
But if you've just tuned in, my guest tonight is
from World Vision, Jonathan Fletcher, who has a very interesting
job and that takes them all around the world promoting
and developing projects that World Vision are doing. And we'll
be talking more about his life and background. Howd he
(14:10):
end up in a role like that? This is real life.
I'm John Cown and you're listening to news Talk.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
ZEDB intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
news Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Gosh, that's a voice I haven't heard for a long time.
It's been chosen by my guests and I Jonathan Fletcher
from World Vision and Keith what was his name, Keith
Keith Green, very prominent musician back in the day. And
so does this date back to some earlier version of yourself?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
I don't think an earlier version was certainly a formative element.
I think I remember when I was at Excellent School
forming out. We'll had to read his book No Compromise,
and I found that deeply, deeply challenging in a positive way.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Now we've been talking about world Vision, and World Vision
is a Christian organization, no surprises, Jonathan's a Christian. But
not all Christians have the sense of a a wide
world of people that deserve to be concerned about, and
you do. And I'm just wondering what influences happened in
your Christian faith or in your life that have made
(15:18):
you sort of aware of a world out there that
needs help.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Hmmm. Look, on the one head, I don't think I'm special.
I don't think there's some unique element that about me
that that means maybe I care for the poor more
than the next person. I say that because I don't
think anyone. I don't want anyone disqualify themselves from helping
the poor or sponsory child. You'd like to get du
Well Vision DOTG.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I was hoping to leave it to you specialists, Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
But I think there were certainly some elements in my
life that I reflect on. My dad has a very
pastoral heart.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
So our house was always full of young people, It
was always full of anyone that Dad felt was you know,
I just wanted a safe home or a place to be.
Mom and they were both like that, but particularly they're
very pastor or very compassion, and it couldn't leave someone
who needed something, they couldn't ignore it.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
And have about a sense of other people, other cultures,
of a races being just part of our brotherhood and
of humanity.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
I'm not sure where that comes from in me, but
it's I'm super I love culture. I'm super curious. I
love hearing my staff speak in their mother tongue. I
love embracing those elements to it. Growing up in Tiataty
South in the in the seventies and eighties, it was
a multicultural society, particularly Pacifica and Mary and Pakia. I'm
(16:42):
a kid at the time. I don't think about how
that was affecting me, but I certainly have a deep passion.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
For okay, right, and that's extended into your family life.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Yeah. Yeah. My wife Kylie is to do he so
South Taranaki is where she fu Up's too, and she's
she's very Mary. So she when I say that we
did the ancestry dot Com test, you know, she came
out at ninety four percent Mary or something so that
so you know, she was pleased that it didn't come
out as something other than what.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
She don't believed my family life.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yeah, so so our kids. We talked about that a
lot when we first got married, about what does it mean,
what is it going to mean to raise children that
are Pakia and Marty? How do we talk about that?
And so we went down the Jesus model of saying, well,
you know, Jesus wasn't part God part man. You know,
he was one hundred percent God and one hundred percent man.
So our children without making them little Jesus' or Jesus
(17:37):
whatever he they are one hundred percent Marty and there
are one hundred percent Pakia, and we want to make
sure that they're equipped wherever they are in life to
be able to pull the elements of their identity out
when they need it.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
So that makes less sense than the economic world that
you spent twelve years on. When the finances, yes, you've
got to have one hundred percent of this and one hundred.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Percent of the it's not a good accounting principle.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
You can work at them to a multicultural concept that
you can have those both those identities.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Yeah, yeah, so they have. We want them to be
as comfortable on Kylie's MyDD eyes as she is at
the Fletcher family Christmas and that's something I think we've
I think we've done well at Yeah, but it's it's
a it makes for a really colorful family, all.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Right, Okay, and experiences ago of seeing the world. I mean,
you're okay, you've been to South You've seen the world.
I grew up there too, everything you know. But yeah,
but you had some experiences that sort of opened your
eyes probably to a He's a bigger world once you
(18:45):
get over that, over the threshold of the country.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
We weren't a wealthy family, but we weren't poor, middle
class family. Mom's school teacher. There was an interior designer,
a curtain maker at the time. But our first overseas
trip that I ever did, we went to Central Java,
Indonesia on a on a trip with our pastor who
had been a missionary there, okay many years.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Prior, so I imagine that was.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
I think to the whole family. My dad thought, oh, look,
we can afford to go first class on the on
the train from Jakarta to Surikata, so we'll do that
on the Beama first class on the train. And Nisa
wasn't what they thought it might be. The chickens were
still there and it was quite an experience.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
And you mentioned music school that you did before that
was on top of your political training and your commerce training,
and that you did music school and then you went
on a tour of Russia as you do.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
What yeah that I think, you know one of the
questions that often young people ask. We have a lot
of young people in our home, and often the questions,
I mean, what do you think my calling is? And
we asked it used to ask all the time, what
do you think my calling? And my purposes in life?
And my theory has always been well our past used
to say to us, don't worry about your the big picture.
Your gifts will make way for you, meaning focus on
(19:55):
what you seems to, what you're good at, what are
the opportunities are in front of you, and and the
doors will open. And this was just one of those.
I was at music school and they asked me to
come on the tour of Russia. Like, yeah, I'm not
doing anything else, Let's get a Russia.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That sounds a lot more fun than gushing about Am
I doing exactly the right thing? Playground out there is
just following your gifts in that so and it's been
an exciting ride for you. One thing I can't understand
to us very much is that you can draw a
sort of perhaps straight lines between your Christian faith and
the work that you're doing for World Vision. But you
(20:28):
also stood for National as to be an MP back
in the day, and I'm just wondering, you know, can
you draw as little straight lines between between your faith
and that and that as well.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
It's asked to the slightly cheeky way, of course, but
I mean, yeah, but did you see that has been
a sense of call one.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Hundred percent As a kid, I remember from a twelve
year old what do you want to be when you
grow up, Jonathan? You want to be Prime Minister? That really,
that was you know, it was very really and I
think there was that There's always been an element of
leadership that people have seen on me or expected from me,
and that doesn't seem like there's any bigger leadership role
than that. So let's go to that route. And so yeah,
in twenty and eleven I stood for Parliament for the
(21:13):
National Party. I heard an interview with Jim Collins recently.
You know Jim Collins, good to great the business books.
He's a well known author not well known to you,
but well unto.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Me people he's reading the sort of the puzzled look
on my face. But carry on. I believe that the exists.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Well, he was being interviewed and somebody said to ask
him a question and he said, you know, I'm sixty six,
I'm mid career, and then went on and the interview
is like, hey, hey, hey, sixty six, mid career. He goes, oh, yeah,
I didn't know anything in my forties or my fifties,
but now i'm a sexies I really know what I'm about,
and I've got somebody to contribute. I'm really looking forward
to my seventies, and I found that quite challenging when
(21:50):
I was. I was in my thirties, when I stayed
for Parliament. I look back now what I believed about
the world. Man, I'm glad I didn't get in.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Oh really, I think I had at the time.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Well, well, no, I didn't. And it was very it
was it was a hard last because we poblicy, we
were going to win and it would have changed the
cultural dynamic of all the Parliament quite significantly if I
had one. But not because of me necessary, but because
of who I was standing against and against mister Hopkins.
(22:20):
But what I understand about poverty was quite naive I discovered.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Okay, So actually this gave you an opportunity to plunge
into World Vision and to get a all this traveling
that's meant to be helping other people to understand the world,
your own understanding of the world and the needs, and
it must have increased incredibly.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yeah, it doesn't mean I wouldn't have. I wouldn't if
I was standing that I didn would necessarily still not
stand for national I probably would. I just would bring
a different flavor maybe.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Jonathan. It's been great talking to you. If people want
to check out World Vision, they can find it on
give us a.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Website well dub dubdu dot world Vision dot org dot
NZ and find everything you need there.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And we're going out on another piece of music that
you've picked, which.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Is foreign language by a like a Sean Johnson.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Okay, something which you get exposed to all the time,
although it's more about marriage probably, Jonathan. It's been fantastic
talking to you, and I wish you all you and
will Vision all the best. I'm John Cown. This is
Real life on News Talk SEDB
Speaker 1 (23:18):
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Real Conversation, Real Connection. It's Real Life with John Cowen
on News Talk zed B.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Gooday, welcome to Real Life. I'm John Cowan and one
of the things I'm glad this show has been able
to do over the years is bring to light a
side of New Zealand life that gets far too little attention.
And that's the good stuff, the generous and kind stuff
that just doesn't make for good attention grabbing news headlines,
but it helps make this nation one that we can
(00:46):
be proud of. And my guest tonight has been involved
in that type of good stuff. He's been involved in
the leadership of World Vision for many years. Johono Fletcher.
Welcome John, Oh, thank you John.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
It's are a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
How are you going?
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Very good? Glad to be an Auckland.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
You had a good summer.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
Yeah, we had four weeks. I had four weeks holiday
and didn't leave. We listed in Wellington the whole time.
I think the first Christmas we've had in Wallington where
we had a staycation.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Right now, the look I nearly said something unflattering about
people who want to stay at Wellington must go to
a lot of other places. But no, look, Wellington, that's great,
But you've been in a lot of places where probably
you probably wouldn't want to have a holiday. Where have
you been too, just lately?
Speaker 3 (01:26):
Well, my last trip was in December to the Solomon Islands, Yes, which,
to be fair, is probably one of the most beautiful
countries I've ever visited.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
Right, so that's not you know, yeah, that is a
beautiful place. And where else have you been?
Speaker 3 (01:41):
So prior to that? In August I had a I
was in Uganda for a week and then two weeks
in Malawi a little harder or a lot hard well,
not a little both both very poor countries. A lot
of people, a lot of New Zealanders wouldn't recognize that
Solomon Islands and Vana are two of the poorest countries
in the world. We always think of, you know, maybe
(02:02):
more obvious places parts of Africa or Asia. But yeah,
it's a challenge and.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
World Vision is involved in all these places and your
role with them it's often involves taking people to these places.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
Yeah, it's it's a it's a it's a I mean, you're.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
Not a tour guide. No, I don't want to accuse
you of sort of disaster tourism or poverty tourism, or
some ghoulish fascination with staring at people that are hungry,
or and I think with that same type of sex
fascination that people have as they drive slowly past the
car wreck. So who are you taking to these places?
And why?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Well, look, I think the reality is that you're one
hundred percent right. We do not want poverty tourism. I
couldn't think of anything worse than turning up a bus
and trapping a whole lot of kiwis through a village
somewhere and gorulishly looking as you put it. So, we
do a lot of work before we travel. And one
of the key resources we use as a resource called
(02:58):
when helping hurts, and it really teaches from a certainly
from a faith perspective, from a Christian perspective, are why
are we going in the first place? And could that
money be used for something much better? So if that's
the case, how do we get the most out of
this trip to make sure that you make a difference
in the world from this trip rather than just see
and then come back and be the same as you
(03:19):
were when you're left.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
So the people you're taking are going to be white,
priming the pump for donors back here and things.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
It could be a variety. So for example, the trip
to the Solomon Islands, it was with our Youth Ambassadors,
So they're the ones who are going to the eighteen
year olds that are coming back to New Zealand this
year and we'll be on high school and primary school
stages all over the country promoting the World Vision forty
Hour Challenge. So it's about giving them an experience that
they can talk authentically about. It's also about gathering the
(03:48):
content we need to be able to show young New
Zealanders what the world looks like. On other trips, for example,
Uganda was with a radio station who were doing a
large fundraising bush and Malawi was with a church that
have given a lot to Worldvision and in the particular
to this community. But New Zealand is understanding of poverty
(04:08):
is often quite primitive and that was one of the
things that struck me when I came to Wild Vision.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Well, what do you mean by primitive? What is a
what is ignorant?
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Now?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Understanding of poslible.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Maybe simplistic is the word. From my perspective. When I
came to Wilvision. You know, my background was in finance,
and the way I saw the world and saw poverty
was very much the way most New Zealanders do. It's
an economic thing, so we talk about when we talk
about poverty, we're usually talking about money. When I came
to wil Vision, I was constantly grappling with that thinking
that doesn't solve everything. Not all suffering is related to money.
(04:44):
It can be a big part, it's a huge part
of the solution, but it's got to be more to it.
So I started reading, particularly Bryant Meier's book Walking with
the Poor or Jaikuma Christian's book The God of the
Empty Handed, and it talks about defined redefining poverty. Because
we've defined poverty wrong, then we solve it wrong. So
if we define poverty is not enough stuff, then the
(05:06):
answer is to give them more stuff. From a Christian perspective,
and certainly in Christian development, we would say that poverty
is about broken relationships at its core. So if I
have a broken relationship with God, with myself, with creation,
with others, then that brokenness is a form of poverty,
and broken people create unjust systems.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
Okay, isn't that that sounds like it could be almost
like victim shaming. Oh, they're poor because they deserve it,
as if you know, all they need to do is
get their heads and hearts sorted out and they'll be right. Well,
but I'm sure that's not what you're saying. You know,
it's played the Devil's advocate. No, just let me just
fit my horns underneath my headphones again.
Speaker 3 (05:47):
But it does fit into the narrative that we to
optically had most I would say most New Zealanders fit
into two camps. And I don't like the left right
political continue I think it's become a weapon that's been unhelpful.
But I do think that some New Zealanders would say
that the poor people are poor because they're lazy. Others
would say people are poor because they're victims. Both have
(06:07):
elements of truth, but are largely wrong. The poor are
not victims, and when we treat them like victims, we
diminish their dignity. We believe that everyone was made in
the image of God, so everyone has an inherent worth
and value. And in fact, there was some research done
a few years ago by the UN, and they studied
thousands and thousands of what we call low income people
are poor people, and we asked them what was your
(06:30):
greatest need and their greatest but they didn't. Number one
on the list was not food, It was not water,
it was not healthcare, it wasn't education. It was dignity.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Okay, Well that brings me back to your taking people
over there, and how do these people feel about being
looked at? You know, do they feel like they're on show?
How does that impact their sense of dignity?
Speaker 3 (06:57):
Well, that's not how we go. So when we go,
we're not going there. And this is part of what
the pre training is about, it saying we're not going
there just to look. We're going there to understand our
own poverty. Because when we get there, what most people
come back with. And so, man, they had a joy
that I couldn't understand despite the natural poverty. I could
see there was a joy that I couldn't understand, or
(07:19):
a hope or maybe it's different in different context.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Now I was going to ask you what is it
that surprises them? Because we can all go online and
look at YouTube videos of deprivation and poverty and places
needing more development and things. So what is it that
the people that you take there, what do they get
that they couldn't get from a good report, a good book,
(07:43):
a good video.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Yeah, well, it depends on the age, it depends on
the individual. So when I take young people to the
vieldin I just took my middle son with me on
the last trip to Malawi, was nineteen at the time,
and I know how important that was for me to
see this, to see those element parts of the world
as a seventeen year old, And you don't always know
it at the time, but then you start to see
how it affected the rest of your life. I think
(08:06):
when you're a young person, there's a sense of who
they are in the context of the world where they
maybe have more than they thought and have less than
they thought.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
Okay, you got to unpack then, yes, okay.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Yeah, So the young people come back and they realize, okay,
I'm a lot wealthier. The hardest thing is I've had
a few that have come back landed in New Zealand
and December and their mothers picked them up not knowing.
You know, the family doesn't know what the journey they've
been on. Often they've come back and they've been packed
up and taken straight to the mall to do Christmas shopping,
and they some of them end up on a seat
and tears in the mall, like how do I reconcile? I?
(08:45):
You know, our family are so wealthy compared to the
families I've just met and the young people have just met.
So there's that element. The other element they start to
see is they had a connection to their families that
I didn't have. They have a community that I wish
I had. They don't seem to have the same mental
health struggles that I have. They're rich in here and
(09:05):
I'm rich and here, and how it's not all one
or the other. And so yeah, that it widens the
understanding of what poverty really is.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Okay, It's interesting that reaction when people come back, and
I'm just wondering, you know, how do you feel when
you come back to New Zealand, to our easy, affluent,
safe society after being in these places where even say
fresh water is a luxury that can't afford.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, my wife and my daughter in particular love to shop,
and so every now and then I'll get a comment like,
don't bring your welvish and stuff home here. You know,
when I'm curbing their expenditure. My wife ends a lot
more than I do, so I have only limited authority
when it goes. That's that's the challenge. I'm the one
(09:49):
who walks through them all with an ethical clothing guide
or whatever. And the kids hate it.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I remember Tony campolla Was would say, you know, those
kids would hate it when you'd come back from Haiti
and they say, oh, Dad, were some new shoes. You shoes?
You know what the gets over there are wearing. So
you get a bit, they get a bit of that
from you something.
Speaker 3 (10:08):
But I was imperfect as the next person I have.
You know, there's what you know in your head and
then there's your natural impulses. So okay, there was a
conundrum there.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Hey, let's I just want to get back to the
stuff that World Vision is actually doing there. And you
say you're in Malawi and I was reading a little
bit about where you were, and it was actually wrapping
up a project that World Vision has been doing for
eighteen years. I think it was. And I think most
people probably think of World Vision in terms of sponsoring
(10:39):
a child sort of a one to one connection of
helping one person connecting and helping one other person on
the other side of the world. But World Vision does projects.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
Well and those are connected. So that is often the
way we think about it as a sort of direct
benefit model. Wildvision hasn't worked that way for a long
time in that sense. So the child is there's a
real child on the other end, yes, and it is
a child that you have on your fridge, and that
child is an abassador for their community. There are some
particular benefits that that child gets by being sponsored. The
(11:13):
biggest benefit and this will make all of your child
sponsor listeners feel guilty. I'm sure because I'm one of those.
Is the letters that you write or don't write, have
a profound effect on their life. We have stories all
of them. We have a lot of staff who are
ex sponsored children, and they talk about the fact that
somebody was somebody cared, somebody was asking about their education.
I better study harder, I better push through some challenges
(11:35):
because it's important.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Really, I never wrote to any sponsors you and most
of us, I'll just crawl under the desk and feel guilty.
But they have them on our fridge.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, And so that's one of the big benefits. There
are other things we have ninety DH checks and other
things that the sponsor child gets, but primarily it's their
community that benefits. And so you know, it would be
very hard to put a well into a location and
then just give the sponsored children a swipe card or something.
Only they can use it because.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
They're the sponsored child. So you'll be working, so it
doesn't go all direct lead of a child, It goes
to their whole community. Correct, Yeah, and how do you
how do you get to the point where you're saying, right,
we're finishing this community? Would seem to be the case
in this visit that you're doing. Is there some ceremony
handing over to a government or a master or something.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
It's actually, honestly, John, it's one of the best parts
of the job is because it's like, do we achieve
something here?
Speaker 2 (12:30):
What did you achieve?
Speaker 3 (12:31):
Yeah? Isn't poverty supposed to be an unbeatable problem? And
so to be able to come and say when we
start in a community, it's usually a ten or fifteen
year program, So we think in ten to fifteen years,
if the community can't now carry on in their own
we've failed. If we haven't equipped them. If we're there forever,
then that's not a win. So it always as an
end date. Sometimes disasters happen or things happen that mean.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
They're just ended.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
So eighteen years we were going to the choosing party.
It's a handing over of some of the assets that
we've built to the local community or to the local council.
But the best thing out of that meeting was the
amount of people that came to us. Thank you, World Vision,
but we don't need you anymore.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
We've got this look just to show that I've been
interested in talk to you. I went on trackdown I
think the Lasser News from Malawi, and then it's quoting
here that Derby said ninety eight percent of the people
in the area now have access to clean water. One
hundred and twenty nine bore holes went drawn. In twenty thirteen,
(13:32):
forty nine percent of the children were stunted in their
development and growth, and that's been reduced down to just
a fraction of that. And that they've built a girls
hostel and so there's a whole lot of resilient stuff
there being built into a whole community.
Speaker 3 (13:46):
Yeah, and a big part that's not in there is say.
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Look, at that you didn't even have to say that yourself,
so you know it's hey, we got to take a break.
But if you've just tuned in, my guest tonight is
from World Vision, Jonathan Fletcher, who has a very interesting
job and that takes them all around the world promoting
and developing projects that World Vision are doing. And we'll
be talking more about his life and background. Howd he
(14:10):
end up in a role like that? This is real life.
I'm John Cown and you're listening to news Talk.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
ZEDB intelligent interviews with interesting people. It's real life on
news Talk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Gosh, that's a voice I haven't heard for a long time.
It's been chosen by my guests and I Jonathan Fletcher
from World Vision and Keith what was his name, Keith
Keith Green, very prominent musician back in the day. And
so does this date back to some earlier version of yourself?
Speaker 3 (14:40):
I don't think an earlier version was certainly a formative element.
I think I remember when I was at Excellent School
forming out. We'll had to read his book No Compromise,
and I found that deeply, deeply challenging in a positive way.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Now we've been talking about world Vision, and World Vision
is a Christian organization, no surprises, Jonathan's a Christian. But
not all Christians have the sense of a a wide
world of people that deserve to be concerned about, and
you do. And I'm just wondering what influences happened in
your Christian faith or in your life that have made
(15:18):
you sort of aware of a world out there that
needs help.
Speaker 3 (15:21):
Hmmm. Look, on the one head, I don't think I'm special.
I don't think there's some unique element that about me
that that means maybe I care for the poor more
than the next person. I say that because I don't
think anyone. I don't want anyone disqualify themselves from helping
the poor or sponsory child. You'd like to get du
Well Vision DOTG.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I was hoping to leave it to you specialists, Okay.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
But I think there were certainly some elements in my
life that I reflect on. My dad has a very
pastoral heart.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
What do you mean by that?
Speaker 3 (15:54):
So our house was always full of young people, It
was always full of anyone that Dad felt was you know,
I just wanted a safe home or a place to be.
Mom and they were both like that, but particularly they're
very pastor or very compassion, and it couldn't leave someone
who needed something, they couldn't ignore it.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
And have about a sense of other people, other cultures,
of a races being just part of our brotherhood and
of humanity.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
I'm not sure where that comes from in me, but
it's I'm super I love culture. I'm super curious. I
love hearing my staff speak in their mother tongue. I
love embracing those elements to it. Growing up in Tiataty
South in the in the seventies and eighties, it was
a multicultural society, particularly Pacifica and Mary and Pakia. I'm
(16:42):
a kid at the time. I don't think about how
that was affecting me, but I certainly have a deep passion.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
For okay, right, and that's extended into your family life.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Yeah. Yeah. My wife Kylie is to do he so
South Taranaki is where she fu Up's too, and she's
she's very Mary. So she when I say that we
did the ancestry dot Com test, you know, she came
out at ninety four percent Mary or something so that
so you know, she was pleased that it didn't come
out as something other than what.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
She don't believed my family life.
Speaker 3 (17:15):
Yeah, so so our kids. We talked about that a
lot when we first got married, about what does it mean,
what is it going to mean to raise children that
are Pakia and Marty? How do we talk about that?
And so we went down the Jesus model of saying, well,
you know, Jesus wasn't part God part man. You know,
he was one hundred percent God and one hundred percent man.
So our children without making them little Jesus' or Jesus
(17:37):
whatever he they are one hundred percent Marty and there
are one hundred percent Pakia, and we want to make
sure that they're equipped wherever they are in life to
be able to pull the elements of their identity out
when they need it.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
So that makes less sense than the economic world that
you spent twelve years on. When the finances, yes, you've
got to have one hundred percent of this and one hundred.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Percent of the it's not a good accounting principle.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
You can work at them to a multicultural concept that
you can have those both those identities.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Yeah, yeah, so they have. We want them to be
as comfortable on Kylie's MyDD eyes as she is at
the Fletcher family Christmas and that's something I think we've
I think we've done well at Yeah, but it's it's
a it makes for a really colorful family, all.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Right, Okay, and experiences ago of seeing the world. I mean,
you're okay, you've been to South You've seen the world.
I grew up there too, everything you know. But yeah,
but you had some experiences that sort of opened your
eyes probably to a He's a bigger world once you
(18:45):
get over that, over the threshold of the country.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
We weren't a wealthy family, but we weren't poor, middle
class family. Mom's school teacher. There was an interior designer,
a curtain maker at the time. But our first overseas
trip that I ever did, we went to Central Java,
Indonesia on a on a trip with our pastor who
had been a missionary there, okay many years.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Prior, so I imagine that was.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
I think to the whole family. My dad thought, oh, look,
we can afford to go first class on the on
the train from Jakarta to Surikata, so we'll do that
on the Beama first class on the train. And Nisa
wasn't what they thought it might be. The chickens were
still there and it was quite an experience.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
And you mentioned music school that you did before that
was on top of your political training and your commerce training,
and that you did music school and then you went
on a tour of Russia as you do.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
What yeah that I think, you know one of the
questions that often young people ask. We have a lot
of young people in our home, and often the questions,
I mean, what do you think my calling is? And
we asked it used to ask all the time, what
do you think my calling? And my purposes in life?
And my theory has always been well our past used
to say to us, don't worry about your the big picture.
Your gifts will make way for you, meaning focus on
(19:55):
what you seems to, what you're good at, what are
the opportunities are in front of you, and and the
doors will open. And this was just one of those.
I was at music school and they asked me to
come on the tour of Russia. Like, yeah, I'm not
doing anything else, Let's get a Russia.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
That sounds a lot more fun than gushing about Am
I doing exactly the right thing? Playground out there is
just following your gifts in that so and it's been
an exciting ride for you. One thing I can't understand
to us very much is that you can draw a
sort of perhaps straight lines between your Christian faith and
the work that you're doing for World Vision. But you
(20:28):
also stood for National as to be an MP back
in the day, and I'm just wondering, you know, can
you draw as little straight lines between between your faith
and that and that as well.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
That's a great question.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
It's asked to the slightly cheeky way, of course, but
I mean, yeah, but did you see that has been
a sense of call one.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Hundred percent As a kid, I remember from a twelve
year old what do you want to be when you
grow up, Jonathan? You want to be Prime Minister? That really,
that was you know, it was very really and I
think there was that There's always been an element of
leadership that people have seen on me or expected from me,
and that doesn't seem like there's any bigger leadership role
than that. So let's go to that route. And so yeah,
in twenty and eleven I stood for Parliament for the
(21:13):
National Party. I heard an interview with Jim Collins recently.
You know Jim Collins, good to great the business books.
He's a well known author not well known to you,
but well unto.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
Me people he's reading the sort of the puzzled look
on my face. But carry on. I believe that the exists.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Well, he was being interviewed and somebody said to ask
him a question and he said, you know, I'm sixty six,
I'm mid career, and then went on and the interview
is like, hey, hey, hey, sixty six, mid career. He goes, oh, yeah,
I didn't know anything in my forties or my fifties,
but now i'm a sexies I really know what I'm about,
and I've got somebody to contribute. I'm really looking forward
to my seventies, and I found that quite challenging when
(21:50):
I was. I was in my thirties, when I stayed
for Parliament. I look back now what I believed about
the world. Man, I'm glad I didn't get in.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
Oh really, I think I had at the time.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
Well, well, no, I didn't. And it was very it
was it was a hard last because we poblicy, we
were going to win and it would have changed the
cultural dynamic of all the Parliament quite significantly if I
had one. But not because of me necessary, but because
of who I was standing against and against mister Hopkins.
(22:20):
But what I understand about poverty was quite naive I discovered.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Okay, So actually this gave you an opportunity to plunge
into World Vision and to get a all this traveling
that's meant to be helping other people to understand the world,
your own understanding of the world and the needs, and
it must have increased incredibly.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Yeah, it doesn't mean I wouldn't have. I wouldn't if
I was standing that I didn would necessarily still not
stand for national I probably would. I just would bring
a different flavor maybe.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Jonathan. It's been great talking to you. If people want
to check out World Vision, they can find it on
give us a.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Website well dub dubdu dot world Vision dot org dot
NZ and find everything you need there.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
And we're going out on another piece of music that
you've picked, which.
Speaker 3 (23:00):
Is foreign language by a like a Sean Johnson.
Speaker 2 (23:03):
Okay, something which you get exposed to all the time,
although it's more about marriage probably, Jonathan. It's been fantastic
talking to you, and I wish you all you and
will Vision all the best. I'm John Cown. This is
Real life on News Talk SEDB
Speaker 1 (23:18):
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