The All Blacks play England for the first time in two years this Saturday.
New coach Scott Robertson has a lot to prove with the weight of expectation on him...
...but England has a bit to prove too! D'Arcy Waldegrave spoke to BBC commentator Chris Jones on Sportstalk about how he sees it all playing out.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Waldergrave
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It'd be and it gives me a great pleasure to
welcome into the studio from the BBC from Mother England,
Chris Jones, who's traveling over here to follow the English
round and what could be a groundbreaking couple of matches
for the English like speakers, and welcome to the show
that this team have got their tales app knowing how
(00:32):
fresh it is for Scott robertson all these new guys.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
And knowing what's a stake. You know England had been
without going on too much about the history they've they've
been keen to acknowledge it. You know, they've got a
guy at the helm in Steve Bortha, who was part
of the squad the last time England were down here
winning a Test match in New Zealand, that heroic thirty
man effort in Wellington in two thousand and three. You know,
know England tea before that one places like Auckland since
nineteen seventy three, and this England team the one wins
(00:57):
in Auckland, I mean going back to France in ninety four.
That's a conversation for next week when we're back here
again in Auckland. But how exciting for this young England team.
They turned around during the Six Nations when they look
pretty bleak post the Cowcutta Cup against Scotland, had a
big win against Ireland, pushed France close, tuned up nicely
against Japan. The team is settled. Not too many injuries,
one or two at home, but not too many and
(01:18):
it's a team that's starting to get a little bit
of form an identity. So yeah, what a huge opportunity talk.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
To us about the turnaround and about what the all
Blecks can expect, because this is not a door English
team that punch you up the guts and get number
teen and get their kick in and they're actually playing expensive,
exciting rugby. Where does this come from?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
So on the way up here we saw the back
page of the Herald and Jordi Barrett's talking about how
the fast pitch and the roof in the Needin might
benefit England, Like, come on, what plannel are we on?
I thought it was all about the white orcs on
steroids and the England forward packed that everyone's scared of,
or that's the the side of the game that people
down here would be wary of when it comes to
(01:58):
an England side, but yet to have a New Zealand
player talking about an England side that might play with tempo,
might play with pace and speed and fluency, is a
turnaround and it happened. The turnaround happened pretty fast for
Iglan during the Six Nations. They went up to Murrayfield
and played Scotland and tried to play a little bit
of rugby. Didn't work at all at the World That.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Was the only time they got flashed in the six name. Yes,
wasn't it really? The is the results, even though they
lost two one three were all reasonably was.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
The last minute kick. They beat Ireland with a late
Marcus Smith drop goal, but play. But it was that
Island game where they started to play some really good,
as you guys would say, footy and it came from
just a little bit of a tweak here. George Furback
comes in at fullback rather than Freddie Stewart's more of
a defensive number fifteen. And I think what Steve Borthwick's
done is like he got to the World Cup semi
final playing that pragmatic style. They pushed the box really
(02:46):
close in the wet of Paris playing a kicking game.
But Steve Borthwicks looked at it and this is an
England team without mackav and a polar believe in a
polar Manitou Langy Kyle Sinkler, big dynamic ball carriers that
did a number on the All Blacks in twenty nineteen
in Yokohama playing a power game. Yes they moved the
ball a bit, but ultimately it was dynam make forward
(03:07):
runners coming in waves, and Steve Borthwick's looked and God,
actually maybe England don't have that type of personnel, but
they do have a Manny Fair with both so they
do have a Tommy Freeman, they do have a Marcus Smith,
they do have Finn Smith. They do have an Alex
Mitchell who's worked on his kicking game loads from number nine.
But he is a kind of quick link man in
the Aaron Smith mold. So he's looking at what tools
he has in his disposal and what is going to
(03:28):
be best suited to Gettingland to win test matches look
New Zealand away from home. It's a complete different step
and if they did it, it would be a huge achievement.
But I think it's about Borthwick seeing what he's got
and maybe evolving his coaching style to suit the players
he has his disposal.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Is this something that's been pushed on him or do
you believe his development as a coach and understanding of
the way the international game is going has suddenly stood
right in front of him with the players he's got,
and go, do you know what I've actually got to
just I've got to grow? Do you believe that's what happens.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I don't think the fundamentals of what Steve Borthwick or
any head coach wants from a team are going to change.
He wants a solid set piece. He wants to use
scruts to lock up a scrum, a weapon for penalties
if need be, lineouts to launch an attack, a powerful more.
They've got this new defense with Felix Jones, which he's
taken from the spring box. So all of those pillars
Alex mitchell I mentioned the kicking game. His box kicking
(04:20):
has come on miles in the last year, So all
of those things he will still be desperate to keep
in place. What Borthwick won't want is to go right.
If we are going to play a bit more rugby.
Then the set piece will creak, or the defense will
be a little bit poorous, or the kicking won't be
as accurate, or in them won't be as good as
winning back fifty fifties in the air. All of that
he still wants. But he does want the ability to
move the ball. He's now got athletes like a Chandler
(04:42):
Cunning himself, he was, you know, raised in New Zealand,
who is a different type of you know, he's he's
going to be someone who's maybe looking for gaps in
the defense. He's abrasive, but he's not They haven't got
these big ball character are smashing through you. They might
need to break the line in slightly different ways. Ben Earl,
he's quick on his feet, he's not so big. He
can do a believe in a polar and just come
up the guts of you.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
But he had no outstanding, so standing World Cup, outstanding
six nations like that, with Sam Underhill being a very
good defensive player, Cunning himself is this kind of dynamics dynamism.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
I think that England are looking for rather than power.
They need to find ways with the person they've got
to create line breaks to get go forward to bring power,
but not in the maybe conventional way an England team
would have brought power in the past.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Chris Jones joins us from the BBC's we take a
look at this England team before the first of two
tists being held under the roof in Dunedin over the weekend.
There is still some old school You mentioned some of
the older players have moved on, but you look at
Joe Marley, you look at Tamara Tooji in the like
quite a lot on these shoulders, you'd suggest are they
strong enough to carry?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
I mean you mentioned Marla and Dan Cole as well.
That Dan Cole's winning one hundred and fourteenth cap this weekend.
He's thirty seven. This was a guy who we thought
was done as an international prop after he'd had a
tough time at the hands of the Box in the
twenty nineteen final. What fortitude to not just keep trucking
another four or five years, but to then go toe
to toe with the Box in a semi final and
(06:04):
banish some of those demons from Japan. So the fact
he's still trucking is a testament to him and Tomorrow,
who's a few years younger, but still there's got a
lot of miles on the clock winning Cap ninety five
this weekend. But that's the area of England need going forward.
They need some backup at prop. They've got options on
the flank, they've got options in the back three. They've
got these two youngish tens in Marcus Smith and Finn Smith.
They've got a good cohort of number nine's locks. George
(06:26):
Martin's only a young guy. Olie Chesham's at home injured,
He's a top player. The prop is somewhere where in
an ideal world that not as much would be on
the head or on the shoulders of Dan Cole and
Joe Marler. They're going to lock up that scrum. They're
going to do what they do. But looking forward from
an English rugby point of view, yeah, the fact that
those guys are still so much as reliant on them
(06:48):
is perhaps a sign that the props aren't coming through
the wayty Borth would like, especially on the tight head.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
It's there an obvious weak point. Is there a teinda
and abelly that possibly Robertson Scott Robertson would look to
expose that you've noticed over the season particularly, I.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Mean they're inexperienced, Like can't you can't deny that Marcus
Smith has got thirty two thirty three caps in the
bag now, but he hasn't started a Test match at
number ten in New Zealand. I was chatting to some
guys earlier this week. They even likes of Henry Slade
who's thirty one and got sixty three caps. He's never
been to New Zealand, let alone played in Dunedin or
in Eden Park. Alex Mitchell never been to New Zealand.
(07:28):
Guys like Ben al these it's uncharted territory for them.
So look, I think there are probably areas where England
would like a little bit more ballast, a touch more power,
maybe that extra little bit of depth in one or
two positions. But they're they're gonna give it a go,
I think, and they're gonna if they can withstand that
(07:49):
all black blitz that will come at the start. Even
though you guys haven't played Test rugby for a while,
still pretty tuned from Super Rugby quick service under the roof.
We've seen Norman Hemisphere teams come down here after a
long season and get blown out the gate in the
first twenty If England can stay in the fight, then
they've got half a chance.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
What about the chance of speed wobbles with this English
side trying this new expensive style you've got As you
see youth there getting carried away with what they're doing.
You see the skeleton, the seat piece skeleton that they
flitish out and build this monster. Is there a chance
there might be over exuberance and that might be the
beginning of the end, that might actually be their downfall.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
And then the flip of that could be that they
in that desire not to go to do too much,
not to play too much rugby, they then go into
their shell a bit and that's the You know. So
if you're Marcus Smith now who for years has played
understudy to George Ford or to Own Farrell. You know,
George Ford's knocking one hundred caps, soon Own Farrell breeze
past that great of English rugby. Ford's injured, Farrell's off
(08:52):
to France are no longer available, so huge opportunity for Smith.
What's going through his head? Is he thinking, right, I
need to play like Ford or play like Farrell because
you can't just play the Harlequins way at home against
Bath in Doneda or Eden Park. So how he he
goes about his business for me is absolutely fascinating because
he'll want to show what he can do, which is
to attack, which is to look for gaps, which is
(09:13):
to counter. But also he'll know that they've got to
play in the right areas. As much as England are
playing more rugby than they did a year ago, don't
expect too much from their own half. I still think
territory is going to be is going to be king
and then it's whether England can use a Tommy Freeman user,
George Fairbank, use a many favor Bosa who I'm sure
New Zealand audiences know very little about to strike when
(09:34):
they get those opportunities.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Talk to us about the I won't say scrap, but
the two Smiths, Marcus and Finn. Now, finnhead an outstanding
season worth the Saints and he turned a lot of
heads with what he did. A decent scrap between the
two of those.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
How does this sp It's just that exciting thing of
rugby going forward. Look, George Ford, he's still got miles
on the clock.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
You know.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Owen Farrell. Will he play for England again, that's up
in the areas in Paris for the next few years
and is unavailable, he'll come back, but who knows. At
thirty five, we've seen guys like Johnny Sexton go to
thirty eight. George Ford, if he's back for the autumn,
he will have designs on the number ten shirt. But
for now you've got Marcus Smith who at twenty five's
got over thirty caps, but a lot of his his
(10:18):
caps have come off the bench or at ten, with
own Farrell at twelve, and when you're alongside over owned
Farrel runs the shots. That's just the reality, you guys
know from the twenty seventeen Lions like you know it.
Farrell always played. Johnny Sexton then came in and Farrell
moved to twelve. He was such a dominant figure back
on that tour and he's been a dominant figure for
English rugby for ten to fifteen years. But it's given
(10:38):
Marcus Smith a chance now to run the side. And
then Finn Smith is a different type of ten. Marcus'
strengths in his running game. Finn Smith's strength is in
his strategic game and putting players into space. So his
key at the Saints was how well timed their attack
would be he's got Berger Ownedale to crash it up
phrased in water link and then suddenly Tommy Freeman's off
his wing from nowhere to go through a hole. So
Finn Smith is probably better than Marcus at doing the
(11:00):
George Ford type, you know, getting players into a gap
and really organizing a back line. But he's never going
to break a line like Marcus Smith will. So they're
two different players, which makes it a really really cool
head to head battle.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
We look at what the Saints provided and you look
at the relationship between Finn and Olie Slathheim and he
is on the bench. What kind of a fit do
you think he's going to head? Because he doesn't mind
a meat pie, does he know?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
And he's been been in ridiculous tri score informed. He's
one of those players who's just got a knack.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
He's a big guy and he's quick, but he almost
just kind of he breaks tackles when you don't expect.
It's whether how he's used off the bench we'll see,
but there's definitely this Northampton core of their back line
that started the Premiership final. Five of the seven are
in the twenty three Furbank has been. Furbank has kind
of been the poster boy for this changed England because
(11:51):
you guys would know. They've had Freddie Stewart at number fifteen,
who is rock solid, one of the greatest on you know,
Israel Filau type under the high ball, unbelievably good. But
he can't link an attack like George Fairbank. He can't
be that extra extra pair of hands in the wider channels.
So Furbanks in from Northampton, Vince Smith's on the bench,
Slight Homes on the bench, Tommy Freeman's in as well,
Alex Mitchell's at number nine. Does the Saints way win
(12:14):
test matches in New Zealand? Probably not? Can they ally
that up with the sort of more traditional Leicester Borthwick way,
put it all together and fuse these styles to make
a winning machine. That's the big challenge for England now
going forward.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Remember Bill McLaren, the like great Bill McLaren saying Donna
Lomo is the devil. We know Christian Allen as the
devil we don't right when Callen first turned out? Is
this character many a Menuel Faye Woboso? Is he the devil?
We don't know?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Such a good story favored both so a year ago
started the regular season, the guy was on the fringes
of the extra team. He was playing like University of
Rugby and Thirtier Club Rubby. He was miles away and
he was also in this tug of war to play
for Wales because he's was raised in Cardiff. So a
lot of us expected for the Six Nations him to
(13:02):
go and play for Wales. But Steve borth We got
in there him. Look your futures with England. And credit
to Bothwick, he didn't just get him into the squad
because that's what Eddie Jones used to do a lot.
He'd bring in young guys and.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
He didn't run off and then and they would trade.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
But a lot of time Eddie, for all of his
kind of left field selections, would often end up going
back to the same tried and trusted players. Fairness to Bothwick,
he's gone and picked Fay with Boso giving him a
start against Ireland, came off the bench and scored a
try against Scotland, didn't play against France with them back
playing against Japan, and he's.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Someone's look out for.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
He is quick, he's deceptively strong, and he's he's this.
England had been looking for a kind of a bolt
from the blue winger for a while. They've had these
superb wingers like Anthony Watson, Jack Nole and Johnny Maybe
they're all towards the end of their career and here's
a guy who has got X factor and what better
place shirt in this weekend.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Sounds a little like Mark Talaya were running as well.
Very very nimble, very fast, very very strong. Doesn't look
like almost little wee pins of leagues. He's got tell
us Chris about the threats that the all wecks is
this and maybe where Ingram would look to attack them. Yes,
they're going to look after their own backyard, plain me.
But you look at this all black side, I suppose
(14:14):
the main thing here it's a brand new coach. Yeah,
and there are a number of players that have gone
They've gone on sabberticals, they've left full stop. So there
are holes. Is there a hole there that stands out
to you?
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I think we're anyone who's covering this tour is is Look,
it's a New Zealand team in New Zealand. It's going
to be good. It's going to play a tempo, it's
going to have a high skill level and it's a
Scott Robertson team and you know, as we hear from
Scott Robertson, he gets players to believe and he connected
with them on an emotional level. So they're going to
be all in. What we don't know is what style
(14:49):
they're going to play. We don't know what a New
Zealand team without a Brodier itallic and sound white lot
looks like, without a Dane Coles, without you know, other
with Richie Muwanga, with a guy Daman McKenzie, Like you
tell me, is he a ten or is this a
kind of guy who's just a supreme talent who can
play anywhere.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
He's been described as a fly in a bottle from
time to time, the way he buzzes around and whips around.
So whether he can actually balance that and command what
goes on and be their general because that was.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Because a younger Richie Mulwonga was a bit more like
that and then became more of a strategist. And then
you've got Boden Barrett, who you know was a ten
and now more of a fifteen. So just so interesting
that Mackenzie Smith heads ahead because they're both going to
want to play a lot of rugby and then they'll
have coach is saying yeah, ah, so you've got to
play some territory and you've got to play smart. We
know Jordi Barrett is world class artie save I think
(15:39):
is one of the best bat rowers to ever played
the game. He's coming back from Japan, could have been
captain focusing on his own game. Scott Barrett's been a
real consistent performer for club and country over the last
few years. So I think there's a huge.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Amount of respect.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
But is there that and I'm gonna eat my words
after New zeal To win by forty is there that
kind of real aura and fear factor like a New
Zealand team would have had in the past with more
established players who have sixty seventy eighty one hundred caps.
These guys might go on to do that, and no
doubt there'll be some players who announce themselves on the stage.
(16:13):
But England have to be keen, have to be make
sure they play the team here and don't play the
black shirt, because if they play the black Shirt and
they're beaten before they get on the pitch, they might
have missed a big opportunity here.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And finally in Chris Jones from the BBC, thank you
so much for joining us. Which where does it go? Why?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Oh? Man?
Speaker 3 (16:29):
I like, I think England have got every chance. But
that's just just. But if you'd ask me in mid
February when they were struggling and lost to Scotland, have
said like, this is going to be a terrible tours.
The word's turned around. Is just any of us who
follow English rugby, it's been so good to see.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
I think he cauld have got a chance. Whether whether
I can go out there and back them, yeah, why not?
I think England could nick it. But they've got that
first twenty. They need to make sure they're in the
game and then if they are a more cohesive unit
because they've had six months of playing as a very
similar side and New Zeeland having places in this World Cup,
they had so much turnaround. England have to make sure
(17:06):
that they've picked up where they left off at the
end of the Six Nations and from Tokyo and they
come and deliver. So mentally, England's challenges to is to
be in the game and then see if they've got
the wherewithal to close it out.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Shock and awe, brace yourself for it and no, just
in case you don't already. And of all of the
teams in world rugby, the All Blacks and New Zealand,
I don't like getting beaten by England. They're the owner.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Just be clear, Just be clear, because there is there
is a chance that that is too. It's a step
too far for England. Of course, there's this young side.
They could be a year or two away from their development.
But I think they won't get many opportunities to play
against New Zealand's side that is rusty Beau. They not
play together in ages that have a new coach, that
are shorn of some serious leaders. If England lose this weekend,
(17:56):
you'd feel that All Blacks can be better next weekend
with that extra week together and with the Eden Park factor.
So they arguinging to test. I think it's got to
happen on Saturday.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
For more from Sports Talk, listen live to News Talk
Set B from seven pm weekdays, or follow the podcast
on iHeartRadio.
You're listening to the Sports Talk podcast with Dancy Waldergrave
from News Talks.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
It'd be and it gives me a great pleasure to
welcome into the studio from the BBC from Mother England,
Chris Jones, who's traveling over here to follow the English
round and what could be a groundbreaking couple of matches
for the English like speakers, and welcome to the show
that this team have got their tales app knowing how
(00:32):
fresh it is for Scott robertson all these new guys.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
And knowing what's a stake. You know England had been
without going on too much about the history they've they've
been keen to acknowledge it. You know, they've got a
guy at the helm in Steve Bortha, who was part
of the squad the last time England were down here
winning a Test match in New Zealand, that heroic thirty
man effort in Wellington in two thousand and three. You know,
know England tea before that one places like Auckland since
nineteen seventy three, and this England team the one wins
(00:57):
in Auckland, I mean going back to France in ninety four.
That's a conversation for next week when we're back here
again in Auckland. But how exciting for this young England team.
They turned around during the Six Nations when they look
pretty bleak post the Cowcutta Cup against Scotland, had a
big win against Ireland, pushed France close, tuned up nicely
against Japan. The team is settled. Not too many injuries,
one or two at home, but not too many and
(01:18):
it's a team that's starting to get a little bit
of form an identity. So yeah, what a huge opportunity talk.
Speaker 2 (01:23):
To us about the turnaround and about what the all
Blecks can expect, because this is not a door English
team that punch you up the guts and get number
teen and get their kick in and they're actually playing expensive,
exciting rugby. Where does this come from?
Speaker 3 (01:37):
So on the way up here we saw the back
page of the Herald and Jordi Barrett's talking about how
the fast pitch and the roof in the Needin might
benefit England, Like, come on, what plannel are we on?
I thought it was all about the white orcs on
steroids and the England forward packed that everyone's scared of,
or that's the the side of the game that people
down here would be wary of when it comes to
(01:58):
an England side, but yet to have a New Zealand
player talking about an England side that might play with tempo,
might play with pace and speed and fluency, is a
turnaround and it happened. The turnaround happened pretty fast for
Iglan during the Six Nations. They went up to Murrayfield
and played Scotland and tried to play a little bit
of rugby. Didn't work at all at the World That.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Was the only time they got flashed in the six name. Yes,
wasn't it really? The is the results, even though they
lost two one three were all reasonably was.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
The last minute kick. They beat Ireland with a late
Marcus Smith drop goal, but play. But it was that
Island game where they started to play some really good,
as you guys would say, footy and it came from
just a little bit of a tweak here. George Furback
comes in at fullback rather than Freddie Stewart's more of
a defensive number fifteen. And I think what Steve Borthwick's
done is like he got to the World Cup semi
final playing that pragmatic style. They pushed the box really
(02:46):
close in the wet of Paris playing a kicking game.
But Steve Borthwicks looked at it and this is an
England team without mackav and a polar believe in a
polar Manitou Langy Kyle Sinkler, big dynamic ball carriers that
did a number on the All Blacks in twenty nineteen
in Yokohama playing a power game. Yes they moved the
ball a bit, but ultimately it was dynam make forward
(03:07):
runners coming in waves, and Steve Borthwick's looked and God,
actually maybe England don't have that type of personnel, but
they do have a Manny Fair with both so they
do have a Tommy Freeman, they do have a Marcus Smith,
they do have Finn Smith. They do have an Alex
Mitchell who's worked on his kicking game loads from number nine.
But he is a kind of quick link man in
the Aaron Smith mold. So he's looking at what tools
he has in his disposal and what is going to
(03:28):
be best suited to Gettingland to win test matches look
New Zealand away from home. It's a complete different step
and if they did it, it would be a huge achievement.
But I think it's about Borthwick seeing what he's got
and maybe evolving his coaching style to suit the players
he has his disposal.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
Is this something that's been pushed on him or do
you believe his development as a coach and understanding of
the way the international game is going has suddenly stood
right in front of him with the players he's got,
and go, do you know what I've actually got to
just I've got to grow? Do you believe that's what happens.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I don't think the fundamentals of what Steve Borthwick or
any head coach wants from a team are going to change.
He wants a solid set piece. He wants to use
scruts to lock up a scrum, a weapon for penalties
if need be, lineouts to launch an attack, a powerful more.
They've got this new defense with Felix Jones, which he's
taken from the spring box. So all of those pillars
Alex mitchell I mentioned the kicking game. His box kicking
(04:20):
has come on miles in the last year, So all
of those things he will still be desperate to keep
in place. What Borthwick won't want is to go right.
If we are going to play a bit more rugby.
Then the set piece will creak, or the defense will
be a little bit poorous, or the kicking won't be
as accurate, or in them won't be as good as
winning back fifty fifties in the air. All of that
he still wants. But he does want the ability to
move the ball. He's now got athletes like a Chandler
(04:42):
Cunning himself, he was, you know, raised in New Zealand,
who is a different type of you know, he's he's
going to be someone who's maybe looking for gaps in
the defense. He's abrasive, but he's not They haven't got
these big ball character are smashing through you. They might
need to break the line in slightly different ways. Ben Earl,
he's quick on his feet, he's not so big. He
can do a believe in a polar and just come
up the guts of you.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
But he had no outstanding, so standing World Cup, outstanding
six nations like that, with Sam Underhill being a very
good defensive player, Cunning himself is this kind of dynamics dynamism.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
I think that England are looking for rather than power.
They need to find ways with the person they've got
to create line breaks to get go forward to bring power,
but not in the maybe conventional way an England team
would have brought power in the past.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Chris Jones joins us from the BBC's we take a
look at this England team before the first of two
tists being held under the roof in Dunedin over the weekend.
There is still some old school You mentioned some of
the older players have moved on, but you look at
Joe Marley, you look at Tamara Tooji in the like
quite a lot on these shoulders, you'd suggest are they
strong enough to carry?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
I mean you mentioned Marla and Dan Cole as well.
That Dan Cole's winning one hundred and fourteenth cap this weekend.
He's thirty seven. This was a guy who we thought
was done as an international prop after he'd had a
tough time at the hands of the Box in the
twenty nineteen final. What fortitude to not just keep trucking
another four or five years, but to then go toe
to toe with the Box in a semi final and
(06:04):
banish some of those demons from Japan. So the fact
he's still trucking is a testament to him and Tomorrow,
who's a few years younger, but still there's got a
lot of miles on the clock winning Cap ninety five
this weekend. But that's the area of England need going forward.
They need some backup at prop. They've got options on
the flank, they've got options in the back three. They've
got these two youngish tens in Marcus Smith and Finn Smith.
They've got a good cohort of number nine's locks. George
(06:26):
Martin's only a young guy. Olie Chesham's at home injured,
He's a top player. The prop is somewhere where in
an ideal world that not as much would be on
the head or on the shoulders of Dan Cole and
Joe Marler. They're going to lock up that scrum. They're
going to do what they do. But looking forward from
an English rugby point of view, yeah, the fact that
those guys are still so much as reliant on them
(06:48):
is perhaps a sign that the props aren't coming through
the wayty Borth would like, especially on the tight head.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
It's there an obvious weak point. Is there a teinda
and abelly that possibly Robertson Scott Robertson would look to
expose that you've noticed over the season particularly, I.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Mean they're inexperienced, Like can't you can't deny that Marcus
Smith has got thirty two thirty three caps in the
bag now, but he hasn't started a Test match at
number ten in New Zealand. I was chatting to some
guys earlier this week. They even likes of Henry Slade
who's thirty one and got sixty three caps. He's never
been to New Zealand, let alone played in Dunedin or
in Eden Park. Alex Mitchell never been to New Zealand.
(07:28):
Guys like Ben al these it's uncharted territory for them.
So look, I think there are probably areas where England
would like a little bit more ballast, a touch more power,
maybe that extra little bit of depth in one or
two positions. But they're they're gonna give it a go,
I think, and they're gonna if they can withstand that
(07:49):
all black blitz that will come at the start. Even
though you guys haven't played Test rugby for a while,
still pretty tuned from Super Rugby quick service under the roof.
We've seen Norman Hemisphere teams come down here after a
long season and get blown out the gate in the
first twenty If England can stay in the fight, then
they've got half a chance.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
What about the chance of speed wobbles with this English
side trying this new expensive style you've got As you
see youth there getting carried away with what they're doing.
You see the skeleton, the seat piece skeleton that they
flitish out and build this monster. Is there a chance
there might be over exuberance and that might be the
beginning of the end, that might actually be their downfall.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
And then the flip of that could be that they
in that desire not to go to do too much,
not to play too much rugby, they then go into
their shell a bit and that's the You know. So
if you're Marcus Smith now who for years has played
understudy to George Ford or to Own Farrell. You know,
George Ford's knocking one hundred caps, soon Own Farrell breeze
past that great of English rugby. Ford's injured, Farrell's off
(08:52):
to France are no longer available, so huge opportunity for Smith.
What's going through his head? Is he thinking, right, I
need to play like Ford or play like Farrell because
you can't just play the Harlequins way at home against
Bath in Doneda or Eden Park. So how he he
goes about his business for me is absolutely fascinating because
he'll want to show what he can do, which is
to attack, which is to look for gaps, which is
(09:13):
to counter. But also he'll know that they've got to
play in the right areas. As much as England are
playing more rugby than they did a year ago, don't
expect too much from their own half. I still think
territory is going to be is going to be king
and then it's whether England can use a Tommy Freeman user,
George Fairbank, use a many favor Bosa who I'm sure
New Zealand audiences know very little about to strike when
(09:34):
they get those opportunities.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Talk to us about the I won't say scrap, but
the two Smiths, Marcus and Finn. Now, finnhead an outstanding
season worth the Saints and he turned a lot of
heads with what he did. A decent scrap between the
two of those.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
How does this sp It's just that exciting thing of
rugby going forward. Look, George Ford, he's still got miles
on the clock.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
You know.
Speaker 3 (09:58):
Owen Farrell. Will he play for England again, that's up
in the areas in Paris for the next few years
and is unavailable, he'll come back, but who knows. At
thirty five, we've seen guys like Johnny Sexton go to
thirty eight. George Ford, if he's back for the autumn,
he will have designs on the number ten shirt. But
for now you've got Marcus Smith who at twenty five's
got over thirty caps, but a lot of his his
(10:18):
caps have come off the bench or at ten, with
own Farrell at twelve, and when you're alongside over owned
Farrel runs the shots. That's just the reality, you guys
know from the twenty seventeen Lions like you know it.
Farrell always played. Johnny Sexton then came in and Farrell
moved to twelve. He was such a dominant figure back
on that tour and he's been a dominant figure for
English rugby for ten to fifteen years. But it's given
(10:38):
Marcus Smith a chance now to run the side. And
then Finn Smith is a different type of ten. Marcus'
strengths in his running game. Finn Smith's strength is in
his strategic game and putting players into space. So his
key at the Saints was how well timed their attack
would be he's got Berger Ownedale to crash it up
phrased in water link and then suddenly Tommy Freeman's off
his wing from nowhere to go through a hole. So
Finn Smith is probably better than Marcus at doing the
(11:00):
George Ford type, you know, getting players into a gap
and really organizing a back line. But he's never going
to break a line like Marcus Smith will. So they're
two different players, which makes it a really really cool
head to head battle.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
We look at what the Saints provided and you look
at the relationship between Finn and Olie Slathheim and he
is on the bench. What kind of a fit do
you think he's going to head? Because he doesn't mind
a meat pie, does he know?
Speaker 3 (11:24):
And he's been been in ridiculous tri score informed. He's
one of those players who's just got a knack.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
He's a big guy and he's quick, but he almost
just kind of he breaks tackles when you don't expect.
It's whether how he's used off the bench we'll see,
but there's definitely this Northampton core of their back line
that started the Premiership final. Five of the seven are
in the twenty three Furbank has been. Furbank has kind
of been the poster boy for this changed England because
(11:51):
you guys would know. They've had Freddie Stewart at number fifteen,
who is rock solid, one of the greatest on you know,
Israel Filau type under the high ball, unbelievably good. But
he can't link an attack like George Fairbank. He can't
be that extra extra pair of hands in the wider channels.
So Furbanks in from Northampton, Vince Smith's on the bench,
Slight Homes on the bench, Tommy Freeman's in as well,
Alex Mitchell's at number nine. Does the Saints way win
(12:14):
test matches in New Zealand? Probably not? Can they ally
that up with the sort of more traditional Leicester Borthwick way,
put it all together and fuse these styles to make
a winning machine. That's the big challenge for England now
going forward.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
Remember Bill McLaren, the like great Bill McLaren saying Donna
Lomo is the devil. We know Christian Allen as the
devil we don't right when Callen first turned out? Is
this character many a Menuel Faye Woboso? Is he the devil?
We don't know?
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Such a good story favored both so a year ago
started the regular season, the guy was on the fringes
of the extra team. He was playing like University of
Rugby and Thirtier Club Rubby. He was miles away and
he was also in this tug of war to play
for Wales because he's was raised in Cardiff. So a
lot of us expected for the Six Nations him to
(13:02):
go and play for Wales. But Steve borth We got
in there him. Look your futures with England. And credit
to Bothwick, he didn't just get him into the squad
because that's what Eddie Jones used to do a lot.
He'd bring in young guys and.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
He didn't run off and then and they would trade.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
But a lot of time Eddie, for all of his
kind of left field selections, would often end up going
back to the same tried and trusted players. Fairness to Bothwick,
he's gone and picked Fay with Boso giving him a
start against Ireland, came off the bench and scored a
try against Scotland, didn't play against France with them back
playing against Japan, and he's.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Someone's look out for.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
He is quick, he's deceptively strong, and he's he's this.
England had been looking for a kind of a bolt
from the blue winger for a while. They've had these
superb wingers like Anthony Watson, Jack Nole and Johnny Maybe
they're all towards the end of their career and here's
a guy who has got X factor and what better
place shirt in this weekend.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
Sounds a little like Mark Talaya were running as well.
Very very nimble, very fast, very very strong. Doesn't look
like almost little wee pins of leagues. He's got tell
us Chris about the threats that the all wecks is
this and maybe where Ingram would look to attack them. Yes,
they're going to look after their own backyard, plain me.
But you look at this all black side, I suppose
(14:14):
the main thing here it's a brand new coach. Yeah,
and there are a number of players that have gone
They've gone on sabberticals, they've left full stop. So there
are holes. Is there a hole there that stands out
to you?
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I think we're anyone who's covering this tour is is Look,
it's a New Zealand team in New Zealand. It's going
to be good. It's going to play a tempo, it's
going to have a high skill level and it's a
Scott Robertson team and you know, as we hear from
Scott Robertson, he gets players to believe and he connected
with them on an emotional level. So they're going to
be all in. What we don't know is what style
(14:49):
they're going to play. We don't know what a New
Zealand team without a Brodier itallic and sound white lot
looks like, without a Dane Coles, without you know, other
with Richie Muwanga, with a guy Daman McKenzie, Like you
tell me, is he a ten or is this a
kind of guy who's just a supreme talent who can
play anywhere.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
He's been described as a fly in a bottle from
time to time, the way he buzzes around and whips around.
So whether he can actually balance that and command what
goes on and be their general because that was.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
Because a younger Richie Mulwonga was a bit more like
that and then became more of a strategist. And then
you've got Boden Barrett, who you know was a ten
and now more of a fifteen. So just so interesting
that Mackenzie Smith heads ahead because they're both going to
want to play a lot of rugby and then they'll
have coach is saying yeah, ah, so you've got to
play some territory and you've got to play smart. We
know Jordi Barrett is world class artie save I think
(15:39):
is one of the best bat rowers to ever played
the game. He's coming back from Japan, could have been
captain focusing on his own game. Scott Barrett's been a
real consistent performer for club and country over the last
few years. So I think there's a huge.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Amount of respect.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
But is there that and I'm gonna eat my words
after New zeal To win by forty is there that
kind of real aura and fear factor like a New
Zealand team would have had in the past with more
established players who have sixty seventy eighty one hundred caps.
These guys might go on to do that, and no
doubt there'll be some players who announce themselves on the stage.
(16:13):
But England have to be keen, have to be make
sure they play the team here and don't play the
black shirt, because if they play the black Shirt and
they're beaten before they get on the pitch, they might
have missed a big opportunity here.
Speaker 2 (16:22):
And finally in Chris Jones from the BBC, thank you
so much for joining us. Which where does it go? Why?
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Oh? Man?
Speaker 3 (16:29):
I like, I think England have got every chance. But
that's just just. But if you'd ask me in mid
February when they were struggling and lost to Scotland, have
said like, this is going to be a terrible tours.
The word's turned around. Is just any of us who
follow English rugby, it's been so good to see.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
I think he cauld have got a chance. Whether whether
I can go out there and back them, yeah, why not?
I think England could nick it. But they've got that
first twenty. They need to make sure they're in the
game and then if they are a more cohesive unit
because they've had six months of playing as a very
similar side and New Zeeland having places in this World Cup,
they had so much turnaround. England have to make sure
(17:06):
that they've picked up where they left off at the
end of the Six Nations and from Tokyo and they
come and deliver. So mentally, England's challenges to is to
be in the game and then see if they've got
the wherewithal to close it out.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
Shock and awe, brace yourself for it and no, just
in case you don't already. And of all of the
teams in world rugby, the All Blacks and New Zealand,
I don't like getting beaten by England. They're the owner.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Just be clear, Just be clear, because there is there
is a chance that that is too. It's a step
too far for England. Of course, there's this young side.
They could be a year or two away from their development.
But I think they won't get many opportunities to play
against New Zealand's side that is rusty Beau. They not
play together in ages that have a new coach, that
are shorn of some serious leaders. If England lose this weekend,
(17:56):
you'd feel that All Blacks can be better next weekend
with that extra week together and with the Eden Park factor.
So they arguinging to test. I think it's got to
happen on Saturday.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
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