February 17, 2025 • 8 mins
Herald business columnist and podcaster says we need to pull out of the Paris Climate Accord (just like China, India and the US) and learn to be a "fast follower" rather than sacrifice our farmers on the altar of climate change.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
So you've heard from Winston Peters and his thoughts on
the Paris Climate's Agreement or record. He's a man who
wrote a really good column in The Herald and Saturday's
Business section on that very said same subject. We need
to be out of it. Bruce cottrel Herald columnist podcaster,
tell me about it. Why should we be out of
the Paris Accord?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Well, Jamie, I think there's a whole lot of things, really,
but first and foremost, we can't afford it. I think
it came with a price tag of twenty three billion
dollars or something between now and now in the end
of this decade. You know why, bother the argument around
climate is changing dramatically. I think the sciences has now
(00:44):
has multiple, multiple viewpoints. And I'm not saying I'm a
climate denier. Of course, the climate's always changing. But whether
or not a little country like New Zealand can do
anything about it is my question. And we've now got
the world's biggest polluters, including most recently the US, pulling
out of it, pulling out of the Paris Accord. China
(01:05):
aren't there, India aren't there. So my view is it's
a very very high cost when you consider what that
sort of money could do for our crisis in hospitals, schools, infrastructure,
water treatment and elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Well, you're knocking on an open door. But remember Jacinda
said we had to do our but we had to
lead on the global stage. What a load of bollocks
that was.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
We don't have to lead anything. We should be a
fast follower. We're a young, innovative country. We have a
whole lot of positive things going here that so many
countries around the world don't have, and so a logical
place for us to be is to be a fast
follower by all means, watch what's going on in the world.
(01:51):
But we don't have to lead stuff. We can't. We're
not influential enough to lead things. But we could be
a fast follower and leaver age what the big countries
around the world are doing.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
What are you going to say, to the likes of
Miles Hurrele say, if you pull out of the Paris Accord,
we're going to lose our customers like Thenan and Nesle Sainsbury's.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Well will we Well, that's the first question, and the
second thing is you know I saw lux and say
it was all about our reputation. I just wonder if
you know, if the big polluters aren't there, maybe we
could enhance our reputation with them. And right now, the
biggest change agent in the world is the USA, and
(02:35):
they're you know, I guess, start changing all sorts of
fronts cost base their view on the world, and that's
going to lead to dramatic change right across the world,
no matter which way you look at it, and that
actually gives us permission to think about things a different way.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Did you find that interesting? And I know you haven't
heard the interview with Winston Peters which is just aired,
but he said we shouldn't have been in ages ago,
so he's going against the coalition party line. Do you
think nationals considerably more woke or maybe I should use
a kind of word progressive than Winstoner's.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Ah, well, well, look, I think I think Winston's making
a lot of sense at the moment. He hasn't always
made that level of sense throughout his political career, but
right now he's doing a damn good job. I think. Look,
you know, my column on the Weekend, Jamie, it came
partly from frustration, but partly from what a whole lot
of people are saying. And if you think about this government,
(03:34):
they've got a fantastic mandate. They took on a shambles
and went the bigger the mess. Of course, the more
excuses you've got to get stuck into it and to
fix it up. But we seem just to be rolling along.
We're not doing anything about the debt, we're not doing
enough about key services failing, and so I just don't
think we're making them enough progress. And if the alternative
(03:57):
to being in the Paris Accord is pulling that money
out and spending it on getting out country back on
its feet, That's what I'd rather see us do.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Now I see your calling for more spending cuts. Does
that cutting off your nose to spite your face? Though?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Well it might be, but you know, government spending is
run at forty two percent of GDP, and as Rob
McLeod said on my leaders Getting Coffee podcasts last year,
you know the tax takes only thirty two percent. So
you know, New Zealand's got over forty government departments and
they have over seventy portfolios for our ministers. Norway has
(04:33):
a similar population to us and they have eighteen government
departments and twenty portfolios. We are over governed and terrible
and so and I look, I don't like the idea
of slashing people's jobs. But as your note from the column,
one of the things I suggest, and I do try
to always try to throw a couple of solutions to
(04:53):
my columns, is let's make opportunities for those people in
government departments who might not enjoyed jobs to retrain for
other roles. And we can even in the long term,
we can even pay them to do that. So you know,
we need nurses and teachers and police, and I know
that paid by the government as well, but they're much
more productive roles than driving a desk. But we also
(05:15):
need truckies and project managers and farmers and people for
mining operations and tourism, and the government aren't paying those people.
And I said in the column, if you can take
twenty thousand people out of the government and retrain them
for productive roles, then we might have a growth. We
might have a crack at the growth that the Prime
minister's chasing now.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
But we also need people to authorize the likes of
the spending the four million dollars on paying these sperm
whale noises to the Cowerie trees to stop the die back.
I would like to get that person and publicly put
them in stocks and throw tomatoes or flog them at them.
Who the hell made that decision?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Now, Jamie McKay, you know that just by mentioning that,
you're winding me up. But I totally agree. Look, you
know that might be nice to haves if you've got
research institutes trying new things. But again, where do we
need the money to get out the moment? Dunedin needs
a hospital. We know that pretty well. There's a couple
of other cities around the country that need hospitals as well.
(06:13):
We need to do something about our education. We certainly
need to support the tourism operators and the farmers and
the tertiary education providers to try and bring those industries
back to what they were before COVID, because that's actually
the areas that we can recreate the growth agenda.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
How important is farming in the primary sector? This is
a dumb question because I know the answer, but I
don't want to hear your take on it. To the economy.
It's our only way out, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Well, absolutely well, not our only way out. I think
tourism can play a role, but on.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Hang on, Bruce is and tourism like a double edged sword. Yes,
we bring in money, but we export a hell of
a lot when we go touring around the world.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, well, I'm what I mean is incoming tourism, Jamie.
But no, looking farming to me is number one. You
follow my columns, so you know that from time to
time I write about the fact that we're too tough
on our farmers and we've got to make it easier
for our farmers to be successful. And that means red
getting rid of red tape, that means dealing with some
(07:15):
of the ridiculous compliance things that they have to abide by.
And you know, we've got to make it easy for
people to be successful in this country. And you know
why do you think forty five of our bright forty
five thousand of our bright young things left last year
Because it's too hard here and it's easier somewhere else.
So we've got to make it easy for people to
(07:36):
be successful. And that includes the people who have the
greatest chance of driving our success. And number one on
that list is our farmers. Number two is our tourism operators.
And then you know Shane Jones Winston's colleagues doing a
good job talking up you know, the operation of the
opportunity with mining. There's all sorts of things we could do,
but you know, we just need a government that gives
(07:56):
us position, gives us permission and resourcing.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Bruce Cottrell, you're talking a lot of sense now. You're
a good Toweronger boy originally. Anyhow, these days based in Auckland,
have you ever thought of perhaps going into politics being
the MP for Towonger as someone else was in the past.
You could be the New Zealand first candidate. I think
you'd have a good shot.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, Amy, I thought you knew me better than that.
I am. I am. I am just not patient enough.
I I like to see them getting done. And the
whole thought of sitting in there for three years and
serving an apprenticeship just does my head and I'm afraid,
so thank you for the thank you for the kind offer.
(08:37):
But I think you better count me out and lead
me to what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Well, you're a bit like me. It's a lot easier
to stand outside the tent and pa you and I
reckon all right, Bruce Cottrell, thank you very much for
your time, appreciator, great column. People can catch it on
the Herald website.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
He's Jamie
So you've heard from Winston Peters and his thoughts on
the Paris Climate's Agreement or record. He's a man who
wrote a really good column in The Herald and Saturday's
Business section on that very said same subject. We need
to be out of it. Bruce cottrel Herald columnist podcaster,
tell me about it. Why should we be out of
the Paris Accord?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Well, Jamie, I think there's a whole lot of things, really,
but first and foremost, we can't afford it. I think
it came with a price tag of twenty three billion
dollars or something between now and now in the end
of this decade. You know why, bother the argument around
climate is changing dramatically. I think the sciences has now
(00:44):
has multiple, multiple viewpoints. And I'm not saying I'm a
climate denier. Of course, the climate's always changing. But whether
or not a little country like New Zealand can do
anything about it is my question. And we've now got
the world's biggest polluters, including most recently the US, pulling
out of it, pulling out of the Paris Accord. China
(01:05):
aren't there, India aren't there. So my view is it's
a very very high cost when you consider what that
sort of money could do for our crisis in hospitals, schools, infrastructure,
water treatment and elsewhere.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Well, you're knocking on an open door. But remember Jacinda
said we had to do our but we had to
lead on the global stage. What a load of bollocks
that was.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
We don't have to lead anything. We should be a
fast follower. We're a young, innovative country. We have a
whole lot of positive things going here that so many
countries around the world don't have, and so a logical
place for us to be is to be a fast
follower by all means, watch what's going on in the world.
(01:51):
But we don't have to lead stuff. We can't. We're
not influential enough to lead things. But we could be
a fast follower and leaver age what the big countries
around the world are doing.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
What are you going to say, to the likes of
Miles Hurrele say, if you pull out of the Paris Accord,
we're going to lose our customers like Thenan and Nesle Sainsbury's.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
Well will we Well, that's the first question, and the
second thing is you know I saw lux and say
it was all about our reputation. I just wonder if
you know, if the big polluters aren't there, maybe we
could enhance our reputation with them. And right now, the
biggest change agent in the world is the USA, and
(02:35):
they're you know, I guess, start changing all sorts of
fronts cost base their view on the world, and that's
going to lead to dramatic change right across the world,
no matter which way you look at it, and that
actually gives us permission to think about things a different way.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Did you find that interesting? And I know you haven't
heard the interview with Winston Peters which is just aired,
but he said we shouldn't have been in ages ago,
so he's going against the coalition party line. Do you
think nationals considerably more woke or maybe I should use
a kind of word progressive than Winstoner's.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
Ah, well, well, look, I think I think Winston's making
a lot of sense at the moment. He hasn't always
made that level of sense throughout his political career, but
right now he's doing a damn good job. I think. Look,
you know, my column on the Weekend, Jamie, it came
partly from frustration, but partly from what a whole lot
of people are saying. And if you think about this government,
(03:34):
they've got a fantastic mandate. They took on a shambles
and went the bigger the mess. Of course, the more
excuses you've got to get stuck into it and to
fix it up. But we seem just to be rolling along.
We're not doing anything about the debt, we're not doing
enough about key services failing, and so I just don't
think we're making them enough progress. And if the alternative
(03:57):
to being in the Paris Accord is pulling that money
out and spending it on getting out country back on
its feet, That's what I'd rather see us do.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Now I see your calling for more spending cuts. Does
that cutting off your nose to spite your face? Though?
Speaker 2 (04:11):
Well it might be, but you know, government spending is
run at forty two percent of GDP, and as Rob
McLeod said on my leaders Getting Coffee podcasts last year,
you know the tax takes only thirty two percent. So
you know, New Zealand's got over forty government departments and
they have over seventy portfolios for our ministers. Norway has
(04:33):
a similar population to us and they have eighteen government
departments and twenty portfolios. We are over governed and terrible
and so and I look, I don't like the idea
of slashing people's jobs. But as your note from the column,
one of the things I suggest, and I do try
to always try to throw a couple of solutions to
(04:53):
my columns, is let's make opportunities for those people in
government departments who might not enjoyed jobs to retrain for
other roles. And we can even in the long term,
we can even pay them to do that. So you know,
we need nurses and teachers and police, and I know
that paid by the government as well, but they're much
more productive roles than driving a desk. But we also
(05:15):
need truckies and project managers and farmers and people for
mining operations and tourism, and the government aren't paying those people.
And I said in the column, if you can take
twenty thousand people out of the government and retrain them
for productive roles, then we might have a growth. We
might have a crack at the growth that the Prime
minister's chasing now.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
But we also need people to authorize the likes of
the spending the four million dollars on paying these sperm
whale noises to the Cowerie trees to stop the die back.
I would like to get that person and publicly put
them in stocks and throw tomatoes or flog them at them.
Who the hell made that decision?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
Now, Jamie McKay, you know that just by mentioning that,
you're winding me up. But I totally agree. Look, you
know that might be nice to haves if you've got
research institutes trying new things. But again, where do we
need the money to get out the moment? Dunedin needs
a hospital. We know that pretty well. There's a couple
of other cities around the country that need hospitals as well.
(06:13):
We need to do something about our education. We certainly
need to support the tourism operators and the farmers and
the tertiary education providers to try and bring those industries
back to what they were before COVID, because that's actually
the areas that we can recreate the growth agenda.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
How important is farming in the primary sector? This is
a dumb question because I know the answer, but I
don't want to hear your take on it. To the economy.
It's our only way out, isn't it.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Well, absolutely well, not our only way out. I think
tourism can play a role, but on.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
Hang on, Bruce is and tourism like a double edged sword. Yes,
we bring in money, but we export a hell of
a lot when we go touring around the world.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Yeah, well, I'm what I mean is incoming tourism, Jamie.
But no, looking farming to me is number one. You
follow my columns, so you know that from time to
time I write about the fact that we're too tough
on our farmers and we've got to make it easier
for our farmers to be successful. And that means red
getting rid of red tape, that means dealing with some
(07:15):
of the ridiculous compliance things that they have to abide by.
And you know, we've got to make it easy for
people to be successful in this country. And you know
why do you think forty five of our bright forty
five thousand of our bright young things left last year
Because it's too hard here and it's easier somewhere else.
So we've got to make it easy for people to
(07:36):
be successful. And that includes the people who have the
greatest chance of driving our success. And number one on
that list is our farmers. Number two is our tourism operators.
And then you know Shane Jones Winston's colleagues doing a
good job talking up you know, the operation of the
opportunity with mining. There's all sorts of things we could do,
but you know, we just need a government that gives
(07:56):
us position, gives us permission and resourcing.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Bruce Cottrell, you're talking a lot of sense now. You're
a good Toweronger boy originally. Anyhow, these days based in Auckland,
have you ever thought of perhaps going into politics being
the MP for Towonger as someone else was in the past.
You could be the New Zealand first candidate. I think
you'd have a good shot.
Speaker 2 (08:16):
Yeah, Amy, I thought you knew me better than that.
I am. I am. I am just not patient enough.
I I like to see them getting done. And the
whole thought of sitting in there for three years and
serving an apprenticeship just does my head and I'm afraid,
so thank you for the thank you for the kind offer.
(08:37):
But I think you better count me out and lead
me to what I'm doing.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Well, you're a bit like me. It's a lot easier
to stand outside the tent and pa you and I
reckon all right, Bruce Cottrell, thank you very much for
your time, appreciator, great column. People can catch it on
the Herald website.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
He's Jamie
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