April 18, 2025 • 23 mins
Keeping your stock healthy and your farm thriving takes more than just reaching for the drench gun. Our newest podcast series ‘Drench Wise, Farm Smart’ in partnership with Zolvix Plus from Elanco, takes a deep dive into parasite management, exploring smarter ways to protect your animals and your land.
In part two, The Country’s Rowena Duncum sits down with Colin McKay from Elanco and 6th generation Wairarapa sheep and beef farmer Mark Guscott. Mark shares his first-hand experience with drench resistance, how he tackled it, and his views on how farmers can proactively address the issue moving forward.
Zolvix Plus for Sheep and Cattle is registered pursuant to the ACVM Act 1997 number A011107. Always read and follow label instructions. Elanco and the diagonal bar logo are trademarks of Elanco or its affiliates.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Drench Wise Farm Smart with Zolvis Plus from Ilanko powered
by the Country.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Well, hello and welcome into our second episode of Drenchwise
Farm Smart. It's a newer series and association with Zolvick's
Plus from Elaine Coo. My name is Rowena Duncan, Rural
lead here at the Country and it is my pleasure
to once again slip on those metaphorical red bands to
host this chat today. Look if you missed episode one,
I caught up with Brent Neil from Franklin Vets for
(00:29):
a high level overview of smarter round room management plus
some examples from Brent's twenty four years in the field.
Also in episode one, I was joined by industry veteran
Colin Mackay from Elaine Coo, who is a once again
studio with me today. Hello Colin, Hello, row you very well,
thank you, thanks so much for joining me again and
(00:50):
on the line today. We have some star power in
rural circles, a sixth generation wided upper farmer who's going
to share some of his first hand experiences with drinch resistance,
how he overcame it, his views on how farmers can
proactively tackle the issue going forward as well, Mark Gascott,
good afternoon, Hello, welcome today, How are you very well?
(01:13):
Thank you. Now Mark, tell me about your farming operation
and your farming journey. Obviously you were brought up on
farm as the sex generation in the industry, but that
doesn't always automatically mean you go farming.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
No, no, yeah, So we've got well, yeah, we're fourteen
hundred odd hectares just out of Martinborough and we're about
I don't know, maybe one third of it flat and
some of it irrigated, so we're fairly intensive. Most of
it's about finishing and cropping. But we also got about
two thousand and five hundred breeding news in about three
(01:47):
hundred beef cows, so we've got quite a bit of
a breeding component in there as well. There's my wife, Susanna,
and I and we've got three teenagers. And my journey was, yeah,
like if you had asked me as a teenager, did
you want to be a farmer? I was like, well,
I don't know, probably not. Was a child of the
(02:08):
eighties and it wasn't very easy and we saw that
and so but then yeah, I sort of left school
and then didn't really know if I was any good
at anything anything else really, and I ended up going shipping.
I know, I didn't want to go back to school.
I went sheppening for a year in the king Country,
which was great, and then I went to Lincoln after
that and then went.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
To ben Z Rural.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
So I did that for about three years, and Kadanuki
and Timaru and then it was kind of at the
time you get exposed to these pop operators, most of
them the best. The best farmers at the time were
making a heap of money with dairy farmers. All the
conversions were happening in Tamaru and it was very exciting
and I could see how much money was potentially being made,
(02:51):
and so I sort of thought that this could be
a bit of me, this farming gig so and the
opportunity was arising at home. Then mom and Dad had
worked pretty hard behind the scenes and it all ready
for us. And so yeah, it did a year and
a half for traveling with my wife or my fiance
and then at the time, and then we came home
and got married and we've been here ever since. So
that was twenty years ago.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Wow, Well, how time flies. And you say I didn't
know if I wanted to go farming because I didn't
know if I'd been any good at it. Well, last
month you won the Greater Wellington Balanced Farm Environment Awards.
You've just been through your national judging. By the time
this goes to air, I would hazard a guess at
saying you're not too bad at it.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Yeah. Yeah, we've learned.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
We've learned a lot along the way. We've learned some
difficult lessons. And and it's what's it saying like if
you you can make a mistake, but if you make
it the st mistake twice, then you're a dumbugger. You know.
I try not to do that. I mean, some of
the people that work here might say differently, but you know,
we do our best. And yeah, it's pretty humbling to
know a little bit overwhelming almost that sort of stuff
(03:56):
from last week it was cool, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, brilliant. Well all the big for the National Sustainability
Showcase in June in Wellington. Yeah, a lot of amazing
farmers on display there. So yeah, at least you will
enjoy the process no matter the outcome, because you're up
there with the cream of the crop.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Well, Colin, for those of us joining for the first time,
just remind us of your background.
Speaker 5 (04:21):
Obviously, congratulate, congratulations Mark and to dinner on winning the
regional award last week. In my background is I've had
many years working in the animal wealth industry and sales, marketing,
research and development, and these days I'm a technical consultant
(04:43):
with Alenco Animal Health, so I provide technical support to
all of our parasiticide products, fly strike protection products, around
web drenches, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, brilliant, brilliant, right team, that is who we've got
with us today. So let's get into it. We're going
to be looking, as I say, about some firsthand experiences
with drench resistance, which is quite an issue that can
be facing New Zealand farmers. We're looking at, you know,
how it's been overcome and how we can tackle the
issue proactively moving forward. So Mark will start with you historically,
(05:18):
what's been your approach to round where management?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
What was interesting you said, become drench resistance. I don't
think you ever actually overcome it. It's one of those
things that you learned to live with and so live
with and manage better and feed your stock better. And
I think historically we.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
When I first came home, like I mentioned.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Before about making mistakes like we did the first For
the first couple of years, I pretty much just did
what your man had done. I mean, I didn't really
have much experience at that moment in time, and so
we were drenching.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
All the time with the cheapest drench we could find.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
They were single actives, and we were very highly stopped
landing in every paddic and there was there was any
really any flexibility in the systems. It's not to be critical,
it's just how it was. Lots of people were doing it.
But yeah, like a combination of things happened for us
in about two thousand and five six seven, Like we
(06:14):
had some very difficult seasons once the shit themselves a
lot they kind of.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Have done the last year or two, and yeah, I
just sort.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Of thought, excuse my language, but it's got to change.
And so so yeah, we changed, and it was a
long process, but yeah, we've certainly come out the other
side and now we're going pretty well.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah, brilliant, And we'll come back to what you changed
and what the result was. Very shortly back Colin what
Mark's describing the are as just doing what the old
man had done using the single drench and things like that.
That's not an uncommon scenario for Kiwi farmers.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
I would imagine, no, absolutely not. I was just curious
for Mark to expand on it really is to why
he changed was a head saw a reduction in stock performance.
Did you do some so faical account reduction test and
recognized there was a drench resistance challenge? Or what drove
(07:13):
you to make the changes to your overall management they're
regarding parasite control.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah, the first thing was poor stock performance. We've got
an irrigated block and we were it was full of
high octane grasses and things like that, and you sort
of think, oh, things are going to be great, but
we've probably overstocked it. You know, you do things. I
probably didn't use my intuition enough. I was sort of
doing it by maths and thinking, well, oh that's all good,
(07:40):
that will work. But then the stock performance just upped.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
And we were lambs on lambs on lambs.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
All the time. Yeah, so poor stock performances. Was asking myself,
why is it like this? What are we what's going on?
And so you get beats involved and we were started
off doing I think we might have started off initially
doing just some basic FEAKU lead counts and then then
it became a well, this is this is not looking great.
You might need to do this a reduction test, and
(08:07):
so we did the first one of them. I think
it probably was probably about two thousand and seven or
eight maybe, and that wasn't pretty. So yeah, we sort
of that was sort of a bit of a catalyst
at the time to yet we changed it were at
the same time economics of farming were changing as well.
Like like I said, I remember selling store lands for
(08:28):
thirty dollars one year and thinking there's no future in this.
So it was a whole lot of things like intrsistance
were part of it, but also economic conditions were changed
were sort of forcing my hand a bit, and that
you know, we were bringing arable into our system as well,
and at the expense of breeding news. So yeah, it
(08:48):
was sort of a lot of a lot of things
were changing at the same time.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
About the time mark that you were diagnosed as having
drinch resistant parasites on your farm, was it really on
your radar? Were you concerned about it?
Speaker 4 (09:01):
No, I never heard of it.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
I didn't know anything about it. I mean it was
pretty early days I think in that and that sort
of scene. And well, we had some some pretty good
vets around the place, and they were I didn't really
I was probably, but I probably would have been about thirty.
And there's in the fit in the tips of No
Sleep with young kids and stuff, So I probably didn't
really think about it in terms of how serious it
(09:22):
could be.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Or not be.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
And so we just got one and made the changes,
I think, and it made sense to me at the
time what the vets were saying, and so.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Yeah, and so we just we changed quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
I still did a lot of dumb shit, at least,
to be honest, so many years after that, thinking I
was making the right decisions. But you know, we'd go
to the go to the Saleyards and buy ahold of
cheap stuff and not think about anything else just because
they were cheap. They were good, weren't, So you know,
that's a sort of and I don't think that helped,
but I don't. We already had resistance to whites and
(09:57):
peers at the time, and the met and type drenches
were we're basically the only thing that worked in a
single active status that the whites and clear's combination with
the kind of working but that didn't last much longer,
and so by the time I would say it's probably
about twenty twelve maybe that we were pretty much down
to triples.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
And then Zoviks came out of like I don't remember when, but.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
It was maybe a couple of years later, and so.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
We just started to we were using all those.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Sort of things and as well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So what do you reckon, like getting diagnosed with those
parasites meant to your operation and what did you actually
do to change I guess you've kind of mentioned it
then what you did to change it? You started looking
at using different products.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Yeah, that was the That was the first initial thing.
Like I think what we were doing I learned quite
a lot from like when some of the initial vets
were really good and not like that they basically do
you know what we were So we had to break
the cycle, and so we did quite a lot of
arable on this intensive finishing block for for probably for
(11:08):
the first five years after that, and so we were
doing lots of wheats and Barley's and things like that,
and so that would give us a six or eight
month break over the summer, and so that sort of
helped start the ball rolling in terms of cleaning it
up and so and that net stuff's kind of carried
on different crops now, but and so been arable and
(11:30):
more catter. And what's what's happened now is that we've
sort of each each year or two, we're sort of
finding ourselves doing other things to kick us further down
the road or trying to improve or at least stay
the same, because you know what we're what we've found
over time, we've done reduction tests kind of every four
or five years since then, and what we've kind of
(11:53):
found is that our status hasn't really changed. We haven't
got better, but we're we're certainly no worse. And we
just came to find more questions almost really because it's well,
you know more about this and me, Colin, but it's
it's a very inexact science, this sort of stuff. When
the people are learning it, we're all learning as we're going.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Really.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Oh absolutely, Mark, But I think the key thing I'd
take away from your experience there as working from a
basis of knowledge, not just guessing. You've you've identified a
problem and made many many changes. It all comes back
to the fact that you've measured what's working what's not
working and managed to keep what in today's environment is
(12:38):
quite a good resistant status.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yeah. Yeah, we got involved with things like like I
met I met a vet called Anne Riddler. I think
she's a professor or doctor or something at Messy now
and she was she was filling into the local vet
for a while and so she's been. She was really good.
And so we did we thought essentially slaughtered twenty lambs
(13:01):
or the vets did and counted the wombs actually physically
inside the animals rather than rather than just relying on
reduction tests, and you know, all that sort of stuff's
interesting data. And I mean, you know it wasn't that conclusive,
I don't think in the end, but it's still just
when you surround yourself with those very smart people like
she is and other vets, then you can't help a
(13:23):
cleaner bit of information from them. And they encourage you
to try this and try that, and just keep talking
and keep asking and asking questions of yourself. That's kind
of that's been been really good actually just being involved
with those smart people.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
Absolutely it is. I guess one thing is mark is
that the smart people are continuing to learn to what
was considered for one of the better term best practice
five years ago may be completely different now, and the
smart people appreciate and understand that that it's an inexact
science and what is good on one farm may not
(14:00):
be suitable for another.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yeah, yeah, agreed, Yep, no one size fitzil here.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Mark.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Now that you've got to handle on things, what does
round where management now look like for you?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yeah? That what you just said, Colin, it's quite like
what we used to do even five years ago is
completely different now. Like we've kind of we're at that
point where we buy in let's say it's ten thousand
lambs a year, and that's just kind of our normal
at the moment. We breed a few and then buy
the rest of them, and so straight away that's relatively
high risk. But we've got to the point where most
(14:34):
not all, but probably most of the lands that we
buy in are from the same people. And I've seen there,
they've done reduction tests, and I know their farming systems
and that they are in a better drench resistance that's
status than us. And so we don't all we sometimes do,
but we don't not always quarantine drinks them because.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
I know that I essentially bring in worms.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
To help what are the worms. I can essentially help
manage dilute down the resistant genetics that our worms have
got on farm with the board in one that's that's
something that's not not one place, I don't think, but
we do a bit of that. We've got At the moment,
we're probably fifty to fifty sheep in cattle and in
the springtime we're probably seventy or eighty percent cattle. So
(15:17):
those that all makes a difference. I monitor the amount
of breeding stock we have as a as a proportion
versus finishing stock, just to understand what we're using white
animals we're using at the right at certain times of
the year and where those animals are like that we
haven't drenched you here for problem. That was one of
the first things we drenching use. So that's probably an
(15:41):
eighteen year old sort of flock without any drenching. So
that's quite good. It's a whole suite of stuff. But
mostly I think the most important thing we do now
is we we It's vitamin g like vitamin grass. You
just feed things all the time without trying to pinch
things up at all. It's kind of probably and it's
(16:01):
probably a buttoning off on the stocking rate. I think
it's probably been the one of the key things that
the animals that will look after themselves a bit better.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Colin, I can see you nodding along like a proud
papa beer there.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
Yeah, I was just thinking that Mark's got some really
good tools he can use to keep his drench resistant
status healthy. Like I'm assuming from your cropping program that
you have lots of new grass which is low contamination
pasture or zero contamination pasture, so there's no worms on it.
And if you can bring in worms from a farm
(16:35):
that you know has a good drench resistant status, don't
quarantine and lay down you know the off used terms
worms and refuge here with parasites that have a good status.
I mean that gives you a really good head start
to keeping your drench resistant status healthy.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, it's quite confixt like I mean, we're by no means.
It's not a we don't have an exact recipe. We
don't do this every time. Certain things. It's because it's
sometimes it's love this. We know what are we now?
We're in eightpril now and so we're you know, it's
a high worm bird and time of the year traditionally
for us, so we're not really doing much testing. We're
just like, right, this is always a problem, so we know,
(17:15):
and we've just had ten meals of warm rain, so
I know that we're going to have worm problems potentially.
So we're not asking questions. We're just drenching every twenty
eight days. But then come maybe June May, June, we'll
start to test a bit more, try and put the
drench intervals out, same as what we do pre weaning
pre Christmas. We didn't drink a lamb here at weaning
at all this year because they didn't need it. There
(17:37):
was no testing. The testing show they were low. We
didn't drink a lamb will probably he can we get
January mid mid January probably weaning's here into November normally.
So we're just asking asking questions really, and I mean,
it's a big job when you've got six or seven
thousand lambs to drink.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
So you don't really want to have to do it
just for fun.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
So yeah, so we're just sort of doing using using
everything really like I mean, I think we're yeah people,
people are obliged to I think, and when our farm
lends itself to being being different because it's got We've
got a lot of flat ground and irrigation, so now
it is a bit easier, but you still actually got
to be open to change yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah. Absolutely. Look for farmers who have yet to face
this issue, what do you suggest they do to protect
their status?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I would say do some testing. If you haven't done
some testing, do that for a start, at least know
what your baseline is and so you know your local
vet will be able to do that for you. It
does cost a little bit of money, but I mean,
in my view, it's it's money well well spent. It
doesn't it might It might mean because most sort of
health country breeding properties that I've sort of come across
are generally not too bad. You know, they can manage
(18:51):
their way back to a good status from what I understand.
So you know that's a good place to be. You
want to protect that, and so do the testing. Speak
to the vets, and with speak to speak to my
multiple vets. Don't just rely on one person. That's one
thing we've sort of found over time, like individual vets
are very good, but then another vet, even operating in
the same area, has some different opinions. You know, speak
(19:13):
to people like Colin. You know that some of the
drench company reps like Lanco, you know, they're really good
to that they've got the techtical knowledge that they get
from a wide exposure to vets. You know, that's kind
of where I'd be starting off.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
With anything to add to that, Colin, that was a
nice way shout out there.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
Thank you back. Well, I think you've already touched on
probably the most important one in the vitamin grass feeding
as key to and what's being able to withstand all
manner of diseases.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
So that kind of covers off farmers who have yet
to face the issue mark, But what about farmers who
are in the same position you've found yourself, and what
advice would you share with them?
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Again?
Speaker 3 (19:55):
What, it's the same sort of thing really like, so
do some testing and speak to your vets, but also like,
don't panic because you know, if your feed your stock well,
it's most things look after themselves after that. And I
have heard stories of people panicking.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
A little bit and that all my lambs have got
to go.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Before Christmas because otherwise they'll get drench resistance or something,
you know, And that I mean that might work some years,
but you know you actually got to be economic about
it too, and carrying lambs through the summer and selling
them potentially as a store lamb in April, for example,
to someone like me, it's quite good money. Like I'm
buying sare lands for one hundred and forty bucks at
the moment. You know, there's approach to buying them for
(20:35):
ninety dollars before Christmas, so you know, the breeder you actually,
we're still got to make money, so minnicking and just
dropping all your lambs is maybe not the greatest thing
to do. But yeah, and I think you ask around
asking mates discussion groups, they're very good because other people
are all most of us are doing the same sort
of thing, or we're trying to do the same sort
(20:56):
of thing, or we've got the same questions. You know,
there's worm wise have got pretty good resources online. You
like will be should be able to push it towards
that sort of stuff. But you know there's quite a
lot of advice around.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, absolutely call on anything to add before we.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
Wrap nothing really to add. My mugs covered it off
very well that communicating with people who are successfully negotiating
their way through another hurdle with drench resistant parasites is
a very valuable thing to do. I guess the key
(21:34):
thing is when drench resistance or the specter of triple
drench resistance really started to appear probably five years ago,
predominantly in the North Island, it was like the sky
is falling type of thing. But now I think the
broader industry has moved on and people are dealing with
it as yet another thing they've such as you market,
(21:56):
you're adapted different, you're farming practices to something different into
you know, people are working through it and still farming successfully.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I agree, Yeah, absolutely well. Mark Guskett, who is a
sixth generation widen up a farmer, really appreciate you spending
time with us today, just opening up about your experiences
and an effort to As Colin says, communication is key
to communicate with others and help them get through the
(22:27):
issues that face the sector. So really appreciate your time
today and all the best once again for that National
Sustainability showcase in June. Thanks very much my pleasure, Colin,
thank you so much for your time as well.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
Thank you, ro nice Mark, Thanks Colin.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
No worries. Look, if you want to find out more,
head to the Alanco website. There's a lot of information
up there. Farmanimal dot lanco dot com, Forward, slash and
z keep an eye out in a Fortnight for the
next episode and our series with Sheep and Bee. Farmer
Michael Kamick now Zelvis Plus for Sheep and Cattle is
registered pursuant to the ACVM Act nineteen ninety seven number
(23:09):
A zero one one one zero seven. Always read and
follow label instructions. Alanco and the diagonal bar logo are
trademarks of Alanco or its affiliates. Thanks so much for
your time everyone. We will catch you back in a fortnight.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Drenchwise farm Smart with Zolvix Plus from Ilanco, powered by
the Country
Drench Wise Farm Smart with Zolvis Plus from Ilanko powered
by the Country.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Well, hello and welcome into our second episode of Drenchwise
Farm Smart. It's a newer series and association with Zolvick's
Plus from Elaine Coo. My name is Rowena Duncan, Rural
lead here at the Country and it is my pleasure
to once again slip on those metaphorical red bands to
host this chat today. Look if you missed episode one,
I caught up with Brent Neil from Franklin Vets for
(00:29):
a high level overview of smarter round room management plus
some examples from Brent's twenty four years in the field.
Also in episode one, I was joined by industry veteran
Colin Mackay from Elaine Coo, who is a once again
studio with me today. Hello Colin, Hello, row you very well,
thank you, thanks so much for joining me again and
(00:50):
on the line today. We have some star power in
rural circles, a sixth generation wided upper farmer who's going
to share some of his first hand experiences with drinch resistance,
how he overcame it, his views on how farmers can
proactively tackle the issue going forward as well, Mark Gascott,
good afternoon, Hello, welcome today, How are you very well?
(01:13):
Thank you. Now Mark, tell me about your farming operation
and your farming journey. Obviously you were brought up on
farm as the sex generation in the industry, but that
doesn't always automatically mean you go farming.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
No, no, yeah, So we've got well, yeah, we're fourteen
hundred odd hectares just out of Martinborough and we're about
I don't know, maybe one third of it flat and
some of it irrigated, so we're fairly intensive. Most of
it's about finishing and cropping. But we also got about
two thousand and five hundred breeding news in about three
(01:47):
hundred beef cows, so we've got quite a bit of
a breeding component in there as well. There's my wife, Susanna,
and I and we've got three teenagers. And my journey was, yeah,
like if you had asked me as a teenager, did
you want to be a farmer? I was like, well,
I don't know, probably not. Was a child of the
(02:08):
eighties and it wasn't very easy and we saw that
and so but then yeah, I sort of left school
and then didn't really know if I was any good
at anything anything else really, and I ended up going shipping.
I know, I didn't want to go back to school.
I went sheppening for a year in the king Country,
which was great, and then I went to Lincoln after
that and then went.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
To ben Z Rural.
Speaker 3 (02:31):
So I did that for about three years, and Kadanuki
and Timaru and then it was kind of at the
time you get exposed to these pop operators, most of
them the best. The best farmers at the time were
making a heap of money with dairy farmers. All the
conversions were happening in Tamaru and it was very exciting
and I could see how much money was potentially being made,
(02:51):
and so I sort of thought that this could be
a bit of me, this farming gig so and the
opportunity was arising at home. Then mom and Dad had
worked pretty hard behind the scenes and it all ready
for us. And so yeah, it did a year and
a half for traveling with my wife or my fiance
and then at the time, and then we came home
and got married and we've been here ever since. So
that was twenty years ago.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Wow, Well, how time flies. And you say I didn't
know if I wanted to go farming because I didn't
know if I'd been any good at it. Well, last
month you won the Greater Wellington Balanced Farm Environment Awards.
You've just been through your national judging. By the time
this goes to air, I would hazard a guess at
saying you're not too bad at it.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Yeah. Yeah, we've learned.
Speaker 3 (03:34):
We've learned a lot along the way. We've learned some
difficult lessons. And and it's what's it saying like if
you you can make a mistake, but if you make
it the st mistake twice, then you're a dumbugger. You know.
I try not to do that. I mean, some of
the people that work here might say differently, but you know,
we do our best. And yeah, it's pretty humbling to
know a little bit overwhelming almost that sort of stuff
(03:56):
from last week it was cool, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
Yeah, brilliant. Well all the big for the National Sustainability
Showcase in June in Wellington. Yeah, a lot of amazing
farmers on display there. So yeah, at least you will
enjoy the process no matter the outcome, because you're up
there with the cream of the crop.
Speaker 3 (04:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Well, Colin, for those of us joining for the first time,
just remind us of your background.
Speaker 5 (04:21):
Obviously, congratulate, congratulations Mark and to dinner on winning the
regional award last week. In my background is I've had
many years working in the animal wealth industry and sales, marketing,
research and development, and these days I'm a technical consultant
(04:43):
with Alenco Animal Health, so I provide technical support to
all of our parasiticide products, fly strike protection products, around
web drenches, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
Yeah, brilliant, brilliant, right team, that is who we've got
with us today. So let's get into it. We're going
to be looking, as I say, about some firsthand experiences
with drench resistance, which is quite an issue that can
be facing New Zealand farmers. We're looking at, you know,
how it's been overcome and how we can tackle the
issue proactively moving forward. So Mark will start with you historically,
(05:18):
what's been your approach to round where management?
Speaker 3 (05:21):
What was interesting you said, become drench resistance. I don't
think you ever actually overcome it. It's one of those
things that you learned to live with and so live
with and manage better and feed your stock better. And
I think historically we.
Speaker 4 (05:37):
When I first came home, like I mentioned.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
Before about making mistakes like we did the first For
the first couple of years, I pretty much just did
what your man had done. I mean, I didn't really
have much experience at that moment in time, and so
we were drenching.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
All the time with the cheapest drench we could find.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
They were single actives, and we were very highly stopped
landing in every paddic and there was there was any
really any flexibility in the systems. It's not to be critical,
it's just how it was. Lots of people were doing it.
But yeah, like a combination of things happened for us
in about two thousand and five six seven, Like we
(06:14):
had some very difficult seasons once the shit themselves a
lot they kind of.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
Have done the last year or two, and yeah, I
just sort.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
Of thought, excuse my language, but it's got to change.
And so so yeah, we changed, and it was a
long process, but yeah, we've certainly come out the other
side and now we're going pretty well.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Yeah, brilliant, And we'll come back to what you changed
and what the result was. Very shortly back Colin what
Mark's describing the are as just doing what the old
man had done using the single drench and things like that.
That's not an uncommon scenario for Kiwi farmers.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
I would imagine, no, absolutely not. I was just curious
for Mark to expand on it really is to why
he changed was a head saw a reduction in stock performance.
Did you do some so faical account reduction test and
recognized there was a drench resistance challenge? Or what drove
(07:13):
you to make the changes to your overall management they're
regarding parasite control.
Speaker 3 (07:19):
Yeah, the first thing was poor stock performance. We've got
an irrigated block and we were it was full of
high octane grasses and things like that, and you sort
of think, oh, things are going to be great, but
we've probably overstocked it. You know, you do things. I
probably didn't use my intuition enough. I was sort of
doing it by maths and thinking, well, oh that's all good,
(07:40):
that will work. But then the stock performance just upped.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
And we were lambs on lambs on lambs.
Speaker 3 (07:45):
All the time. Yeah, so poor stock performances. Was asking myself,
why is it like this? What are we what's going on?
And so you get beats involved and we were started
off doing I think we might have started off initially
doing just some basic FEAKU lead counts and then then
it became a well, this is this is not looking great.
You might need to do this a reduction test, and
(08:07):
so we did the first one of them. I think
it probably was probably about two thousand and seven or
eight maybe, and that wasn't pretty. So yeah, we sort
of that was sort of a bit of a catalyst
at the time to yet we changed it were at
the same time economics of farming were changing as well.
Like like I said, I remember selling store lands for
(08:28):
thirty dollars one year and thinking there's no future in this.
So it was a whole lot of things like intrsistance
were part of it, but also economic conditions were changed
were sort of forcing my hand a bit, and that
you know, we were bringing arable into our system as well,
and at the expense of breeding news. So yeah, it
(08:48):
was sort of a lot of a lot of things
were changing at the same time.
Speaker 2 (08:52):
About the time mark that you were diagnosed as having
drinch resistant parasites on your farm, was it really on
your radar? Were you concerned about it?
Speaker 4 (09:01):
No, I never heard of it.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
I didn't know anything about it. I mean it was
pretty early days I think in that and that sort
of scene. And well, we had some some pretty good
vets around the place, and they were I didn't really
I was probably, but I probably would have been about thirty.
And there's in the fit in the tips of No
Sleep with young kids and stuff, So I probably didn't
really think about it in terms of how serious it
(09:22):
could be.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Or not be.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
And so we just got one and made the changes,
I think, and it made sense to me at the
time what the vets were saying, and so.
Speaker 4 (09:32):
Yeah, and so we just we changed quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (09:35):
I still did a lot of dumb shit, at least,
to be honest, so many years after that, thinking I
was making the right decisions. But you know, we'd go
to the go to the Saleyards and buy ahold of
cheap stuff and not think about anything else just because
they were cheap. They were good, weren't, So you know,
that's a sort of and I don't think that helped,
but I don't. We already had resistance to whites and
(09:57):
peers at the time, and the met and type drenches
were we're basically the only thing that worked in a
single active status that the whites and clear's combination with
the kind of working but that didn't last much longer,
and so by the time I would say it's probably
about twenty twelve maybe that we were pretty much down
to triples.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
And then Zoviks came out of like I don't remember when, but.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
It was maybe a couple of years later, and so.
Speaker 4 (10:24):
We just started to we were using all those.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Sort of things and as well, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
So what do you reckon, like getting diagnosed with those
parasites meant to your operation and what did you actually
do to change I guess you've kind of mentioned it
then what you did to change it? You started looking
at using different products.
Speaker 3 (10:46):
Yeah, that was the That was the first initial thing.
Like I think what we were doing I learned quite
a lot from like when some of the initial vets
were really good and not like that they basically do
you know what we were So we had to break
the cycle, and so we did quite a lot of
arable on this intensive finishing block for for probably for
(11:08):
the first five years after that, and so we were
doing lots of wheats and Barley's and things like that,
and so that would give us a six or eight
month break over the summer, and so that sort of
helped start the ball rolling in terms of cleaning it
up and so and that net stuff's kind of carried
on different crops now, but and so been arable and
(11:30):
more catter. And what's what's happened now is that we've
sort of each each year or two, we're sort of
finding ourselves doing other things to kick us further down
the road or trying to improve or at least stay
the same, because you know what we're what we've found
over time, we've done reduction tests kind of every four
or five years since then, and what we've kind of
(11:53):
found is that our status hasn't really changed. We haven't
got better, but we're we're certainly no worse. And we
just came to find more questions almost really because it's well,
you know more about this and me, Colin, but it's
it's a very inexact science, this sort of stuff. When
the people are learning it, we're all learning as we're going.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Really.
Speaker 5 (12:13):
Oh absolutely, Mark, But I think the key thing I'd
take away from your experience there as working from a
basis of knowledge, not just guessing. You've you've identified a
problem and made many many changes. It all comes back
to the fact that you've measured what's working what's not
working and managed to keep what in today's environment is
(12:38):
quite a good resistant status.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Yeah. Yeah, we got involved with things like like I
met I met a vet called Anne Riddler. I think
she's a professor or doctor or something at Messy now
and she was she was filling into the local vet
for a while and so she's been. She was really good.
And so we did we thought essentially slaughtered twenty lambs
(13:01):
or the vets did and counted the wombs actually physically
inside the animals rather than rather than just relying on
reduction tests, and you know, all that sort of stuff's
interesting data. And I mean, you know it wasn't that conclusive,
I don't think in the end, but it's still just
when you surround yourself with those very smart people like
she is and other vets, then you can't help a
(13:23):
cleaner bit of information from them. And they encourage you
to try this and try that, and just keep talking
and keep asking and asking questions of yourself. That's kind
of that's been been really good actually just being involved
with those smart people.
Speaker 5 (13:38):
Absolutely it is. I guess one thing is mark is
that the smart people are continuing to learn to what
was considered for one of the better term best practice
five years ago may be completely different now, and the
smart people appreciate and understand that that it's an inexact
science and what is good on one farm may not
(14:00):
be suitable for another.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Yeah, yeah, agreed, Yep, no one size fitzil here.
Speaker 3 (14:06):
Mark.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
Now that you've got to handle on things, what does
round where management now look like for you?
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Yeah? That what you just said, Colin, it's quite like
what we used to do even five years ago is
completely different now. Like we've kind of we're at that
point where we buy in let's say it's ten thousand
lambs a year, and that's just kind of our normal
at the moment. We breed a few and then buy
the rest of them, and so straight away that's relatively
high risk. But we've got to the point where most
(14:34):
not all, but probably most of the lands that we
buy in are from the same people. And I've seen there,
they've done reduction tests, and I know their farming systems
and that they are in a better drench resistance that's
status than us. And so we don't all we sometimes do,
but we don't not always quarantine drinks them because.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
I know that I essentially bring in worms.
Speaker 3 (14:53):
To help what are the worms. I can essentially help
manage dilute down the resistant genetics that our worms have
got on farm with the board in one that's that's
something that's not not one place, I don't think, but
we do a bit of that. We've got At the moment,
we're probably fifty to fifty sheep in cattle and in
the springtime we're probably seventy or eighty percent cattle. So
(15:17):
those that all makes a difference. I monitor the amount
of breeding stock we have as a as a proportion
versus finishing stock, just to understand what we're using white
animals we're using at the right at certain times of
the year and where those animals are like that we
haven't drenched you here for problem. That was one of
the first things we drenching use. So that's probably an
(15:41):
eighteen year old sort of flock without any drenching. So
that's quite good. It's a whole suite of stuff. But
mostly I think the most important thing we do now
is we we It's vitamin g like vitamin grass. You
just feed things all the time without trying to pinch
things up at all. It's kind of probably and it's
(16:01):
probably a buttoning off on the stocking rate. I think
it's probably been the one of the key things that
the animals that will look after themselves a bit better.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
Colin, I can see you nodding along like a proud
papa beer there.
Speaker 5 (16:13):
Yeah, I was just thinking that Mark's got some really
good tools he can use to keep his drench resistant
status healthy. Like I'm assuming from your cropping program that
you have lots of new grass which is low contamination
pasture or zero contamination pasture, so there's no worms on it.
And if you can bring in worms from a farm
(16:35):
that you know has a good drench resistant status, don't
quarantine and lay down you know the off used terms
worms and refuge here with parasites that have a good status.
I mean that gives you a really good head start
to keeping your drench resistant status healthy.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, it's quite confixt like I mean, we're by no means.
It's not a we don't have an exact recipe. We
don't do this every time. Certain things. It's because it's
sometimes it's love this. We know what are we now?
We're in eightpril now and so we're you know, it's
a high worm bird and time of the year traditionally
for us, so we're not really doing much testing. We're
just like, right, this is always a problem, so we know,
(17:15):
and we've just had ten meals of warm rain, so
I know that we're going to have worm problems potentially.
So we're not asking questions. We're just drenching every twenty
eight days. But then come maybe June May, June, we'll
start to test a bit more, try and put the
drench intervals out, same as what we do pre weaning
pre Christmas. We didn't drink a lamb here at weaning
at all this year because they didn't need it. There
(17:37):
was no testing. The testing show they were low. We
didn't drink a lamb will probably he can we get
January mid mid January probably weaning's here into November normally.
So we're just asking asking questions really, and I mean,
it's a big job when you've got six or seven
thousand lambs to drink.
Speaker 4 (17:54):
So you don't really want to have to do it
just for fun.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
So yeah, so we're just sort of doing using using
everything really like I mean, I think we're yeah people,
people are obliged to I think, and when our farm
lends itself to being being different because it's got We've
got a lot of flat ground and irrigation, so now
it is a bit easier, but you still actually got
to be open to change yourself.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Yeah. Absolutely. Look for farmers who have yet to face
this issue, what do you suggest they do to protect
their status?
Speaker 3 (18:28):
I would say do some testing. If you haven't done
some testing, do that for a start, at least know
what your baseline is and so you know your local
vet will be able to do that for you. It
does cost a little bit of money, but I mean,
in my view, it's it's money well well spent. It
doesn't it might It might mean because most sort of
health country breeding properties that I've sort of come across
are generally not too bad. You know, they can manage
(18:51):
their way back to a good status from what I understand.
So you know that's a good place to be. You
want to protect that, and so do the testing. Speak
to the vets, and with speak to speak to my
multiple vets. Don't just rely on one person. That's one
thing we've sort of found over time, like individual vets
are very good, but then another vet, even operating in
the same area, has some different opinions. You know, speak
(19:13):
to people like Colin. You know that some of the
drench company reps like Lanco, you know, they're really good
to that they've got the techtical knowledge that they get
from a wide exposure to vets. You know, that's kind
of where I'd be starting off.
Speaker 2 (19:26):
With anything to add to that, Colin, that was a
nice way shout out there.
Speaker 5 (19:29):
Thank you back. Well, I think you've already touched on
probably the most important one in the vitamin grass feeding
as key to and what's being able to withstand all
manner of diseases.
Speaker 2 (19:42):
So that kind of covers off farmers who have yet
to face the issue mark, But what about farmers who
are in the same position you've found yourself, and what
advice would you share with them?
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Again?
Speaker 3 (19:55):
What, it's the same sort of thing really like, so
do some testing and speak to your vets, but also like,
don't panic because you know, if your feed your stock well,
it's most things look after themselves after that. And I
have heard stories of people panicking.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
A little bit and that all my lambs have got
to go.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Before Christmas because otherwise they'll get drench resistance or something,
you know, And that I mean that might work some years,
but you know you actually got to be economic about
it too, and carrying lambs through the summer and selling
them potentially as a store lamb in April, for example,
to someone like me, it's quite good money. Like I'm
buying sare lands for one hundred and forty bucks at
the moment. You know, there's approach to buying them for
(20:35):
ninety dollars before Christmas, so you know, the breeder you actually,
we're still got to make money, so minnicking and just
dropping all your lambs is maybe not the greatest thing
to do. But yeah, and I think you ask around
asking mates discussion groups, they're very good because other people
are all most of us are doing the same sort
of thing, or we're trying to do the same sort
(20:56):
of thing, or we've got the same questions. You know,
there's worm wise have got pretty good resources online. You
like will be should be able to push it towards
that sort of stuff. But you know there's quite a
lot of advice around.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
Yeah, absolutely call on anything to add before we.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
Wrap nothing really to add. My mugs covered it off
very well that communicating with people who are successfully negotiating
their way through another hurdle with drench resistant parasites is
a very valuable thing to do. I guess the key
(21:34):
thing is when drench resistance or the specter of triple
drench resistance really started to appear probably five years ago,
predominantly in the North Island, it was like the sky
is falling type of thing. But now I think the
broader industry has moved on and people are dealing with
it as yet another thing they've such as you market,
(21:56):
you're adapted different, you're farming practices to something different into
you know, people are working through it and still farming successfully.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I agree, Yeah, absolutely well. Mark Guskett, who is a
sixth generation widen up a farmer, really appreciate you spending
time with us today, just opening up about your experiences
and an effort to As Colin says, communication is key
to communicate with others and help them get through the
(22:27):
issues that face the sector. So really appreciate your time
today and all the best once again for that National
Sustainability showcase in June. Thanks very much my pleasure, Colin,
thank you so much for your time as well.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
Thank you, ro nice Mark, Thanks Colin.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
No worries. Look, if you want to find out more,
head to the Alanco website. There's a lot of information
up there. Farmanimal dot lanco dot com, Forward, slash and
z keep an eye out in a Fortnight for the
next episode and our series with Sheep and Bee. Farmer
Michael Kamick now Zelvis Plus for Sheep and Cattle is
registered pursuant to the ACVM Act nineteen ninety seven number
(23:09):
A zero one one one zero seven. Always read and
follow label instructions. Alanco and the diagonal bar logo are
trademarks of Alanco or its affiliates. Thanks so much for
your time everyone. We will catch you back in a fortnight.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Drenchwise farm Smart with Zolvix Plus from Ilanco, powered by
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