April 1, 2025 • 21 mins
A war of words has erupted between the Green Party and NZ First this week.
It comes after photos circulated on social from a private Instagram account belonging to Green MP Benjamin Doyle. The account, named ‘biblebeltbussy’, also featured photos of their child, including one with ‘bussy’ in the caption.
The term originated as a euphuism for a man’s anus, and can be used colloquially by some in the gay community, but Doyle’s usage of it has sparked accusations of vulgarity and being inappropriate.
That was amplified by Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters, who said on social media that Doyle should answer for the posts and that if “Police want to investigate, they can”.
The Green Party has said that Doyle has received death threats as a result and have called for the Prime Minister to intervene.
So does this suggest a changing battleground for politics, with family issues and social media activists taking centre stage?
Today on The Front Page, we’re joined by Victoria University of Wellington politics professor Lara Greaves to discuss a different type of political scandal.
Follow The Front Page on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer: Richard Martin
Producer: Ethan Sills
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Kiyotra.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. A war
of words has erupted between the Green Party and Enzed
first this week. It comes after photos circulated on social.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Media from a private Instagram account belonging to a Green MP,
Benjamin Doyle. The account, named.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Bible Belt Bussy, also featured photos of their child, including
one with Bussy in the caption. The term originated as
a euphemism for a man's anus and can be used
colloquially by some in the gay community, but Doyle's usage
of it has sparked accusations of vulgarity and being inappropriate.
(00:53):
That was amplified by Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters, who
said on social media that Doutley should answer for the
posts and that if police want to investigate, they can.
The Green Party has said that Doyle has received death
threats as a result, and have called for the Prime
Minister to intervene. So does this suggest a changing battleground
(01:16):
for politics? With family issues and social media activists taking
center stage Today on the Front Page, we're joined by
Victoria University of Wellington politics professor Lara agrees to discuss
a different type of political scandal. Lara, let's focus on
(01:38):
this incident for starters, what did you think when you
first saw this making the news the other day?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Well, I think initially I thought it was in the news,
and then I went and did some investigating and looked
at what some of the original posts have been, what
different people were saying in the various blogs and various
corners of the Internet. So when I did a bit
of research for my self yesterday after seeing what it
kind of erupted in the media, and basically it maybe
really sad because what we have here is someone whose
(02:09):
child is facing death threats.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
And I really feel.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Sad about that because our politics and altaut is, you know,
it's folksy, it's small, and we like to think that
things are safe.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
And I think a lot of the discourse was that
our dern.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Faced a lot of threats, but that was an artifact
of COVID, And here we have another MP saying that
they're their own safety and there the safety of their
fano and their child is under threats. So that's ultimately
very concerning, in a very concerning direction for our politics
to go in.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, focusing on the Greens, though, an argument can be
made that they should have done their due diligence in
preparing a first time MP for the spotlight right, especially
considering the issues they had with MP's last year. Should
someone in the comms team have flagged this kind of
thing earlier.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
It's a really.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Awkward thing, isn't it, Because ultimately, you know, MPs do
have a level of free speed, and everyone does have
a history. But on the other hand, we know that
politics is rough and humble. People do dig into people's past,
and we've also seen internationally that that's quite a norm
that people dig into people's past. There's let's been less
so in New Zealand unless of course someone's committed a crime,
(03:16):
and a lot of journalists have found bits and pieces
like that in the past. Ultimately, yes, there is an argument.
We've seen Medline, Chapman and the spinoff kind of make
the argument the party perhaps should have protected Benjamin Doyle
a little bit more. It's one of those things that's
hard to say because the other thing. On the other hand,
political parties do have limited resources, so it's a bit
I think people will have their opinions on this one,
(03:38):
and will have their opinions on what they would do
if they were going for sort of public office or
going for a public position as well.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
I think that the discourse generally.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
For most people who's going to the point that we
should google ourselves and figure out what's online about us
at any given moment. I'm alone for an MP, so
I think people will have opinions as to we're having
one's private Instagram up is something that they should or
shouldn't have done. Ultimately, yeah, there's going to just be
mixed opinions on it.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
But I mean this again.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Starts to go back to that freedom of speech debate
as well as at what point is something distasteful to
the mainstream versus harmful in any way. So I think
that this is kind of playing out, but more like.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
The left wing version of that.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
I guess we're used to seeing it more be on
the right where someone said something maybe anti vax or
said something that's been concerning from a different lens.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, I mean other MP's have had the media troll
through their social medias in the past and bring up,
you know, old tweets, etc. Do you think it's fair
game now given that social media is such an integral
part of our lives.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Is this incident any different from the rest?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yeah, well, I remember we saw Ardurn's old tweets surface
at one point where she'd made comments I think it
was about Boris Johnson and that was kind of brought
up in that context. She was I think prime minister,
so a bit of a different context of being a
backbench MP. I think generally we've also seen that for
candidates as well, for different I think was Act Party
candidates that people had gone back through and found bits
(05:06):
and pieces of their opinions on the record going back
a few years. So I think that this is something
that people can expect. Generally, there's a broader conversationist whether
that's fair or should be fair game. I think there's
going to be a generational shift there as well. So
for people who are growing up now all they've known
is the Internet, every bump in the road, every kind
(05:27):
of ideological turn, will soon be quite well documented.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
And in New Zealand we don't have that kind of
right to forget.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
In the way that some of the European data protection
laws do, so I think we can expect to see
a lot more of this and a lot more characterization
of oh is this appropriate?
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Is that appropriate?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
But I think ultimately, I think the decades to come
probably that Gen Alpha gen z is probably will care
a lot less than what is playing out now, which
is definitely a bit more generational differences.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
Oh look, this is identity politics. That it's worse. It's
virtue sitting it. It's worse. All I'm asking you is
ask him to explain his posts. That's all.
Speaker 6 (06:11):
Well, if you haven't seen those phraseology or the photographs
and ask what they're about. And it's beyond me because
at the moment we're passing hundred sixty four thousand on
our post who want to have the same answers are
manning them from the rainbow groups.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
So to speak. Did I say there are thousands.
Speaker 6 (06:31):
Of them from the rainbow groups. So it's not an anti
rambo thing. It's a straight out question that you've asked
countless members of parliament about their posts. You said, those
members of parliament, what does your post mean? And I'm
asking you how comes seventy four hours later you haven't
asked the question.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Looking at New Zealand, first, what do you make of
Winston Peters getting involved in this debate and refusing to
down when is being challenged.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
He seems pretty determined to take a stand on this one.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Fundamentally, in New Zealand, first they need to get to
the five percent party vote threshold. And so now we're
sitting in about a year and a half out from
the election, they need to start thinking about how do
they get to that five percent. New Zealand Attitudes and
Value study data and various other data sources show that
two to three percent of voters are loyal to them,
so they normally have to find that couple of percent
from elsewhere. And I think a lot of us have
(07:27):
been discussing where will where will they find that vote
and make sure that they do now that five percent
threshold that they need one of the kind of rhetorical
strategies they've definitely gone down as they woke the importing,
the cultural wars, they woke anti woke the DEI. We've
seen a lot of kind of discussion about diversity and
inclusion initiatives and the public service coming from New Zealand. First,
(07:48):
this does seem to be the route that they're going down.
The whole PC gone mad was the kind of version
of it. Twenty years ago, and a non binary Takatapui
MP in the Greens does represent lot of that what
they would call the woke sort of movement. Others would
just call social justice or inclusion or representation your demographic
representation of communities in Altauto and New Zealand. So they've really,
(08:12):
i think used Benjamin Doyle's Instagram posts as a lightning
rod of thoughts for this and to kind of bring
together sort of various interests on the Internet to try
to really target a non binary MP.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
So those are the dynamics that are playing out.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
We've also seen Peter's refuse to use Benjamin Doyle's they
then pronouns instead using Heim pronouns for them. That's another
thing that we've seen internationally as well, when people are
engaging in that culture wars type thing and the inclusion
or exclusion of non binary people. So that's another kind
of strategy that we see around the world. So ultimately
(08:49):
New Zealand first are really importing a lot of culture
wars rhetoric, a lot of anti woke DEI rhetoric that
we're seeing a lot in the States and in Canada.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, and I guess it's no we're under Noah usion
where that's come from?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Right? I saw Shane Jones wearing a New Zealand Make
New Zealand Great Again cap on Twitter or x rather
just recently in terms of I guess the Benjamin Doyle situation,
I found it interesting Madame and Davidson. In the press
conference that the Greens held, she mentioned that this comes
directly from the same playbook as the situations with say
(09:26):
Destiny Church and the drag storytime events being dismantled by them.
That's the playbook that we're talking about. Hey, that's the
kind of the rhetoric and the train that New Zealand
First is on, and that's where they're going to try
and seek that one in two percent.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, and if we see like where a lot of
the sort of Benjamin Doyle type opinion pieces at the
moment are from Family First, which we know kind of
conservative lobby group. So I think that this is one
of those there First is right cultural issues at the moment.
But ultimately I think what it comes down to is
there a lot of New Zealanders in the middle. There
are a lot of New Zealanders that would be looking
at all of this and going yuch or getting put
(10:04):
off politics and all of our elections. What they will
come down to is who can form a coalition and
who can win over those middle voters. So one of
the things I'm now watching, of course knowing New Zealand
versus is obviously trying to drum up votes the political parties.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
That's what they do. You know, the Greens are doing
the same.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
I'm looking at Labor and National and that fight for
the middle, that fight for that you know five to
ten percent of voters that we know that float between parties.
Haven't heard anything yet from Labor on this. Of course
saw Luxon's comments yesterday around inappropriate language. But these kind
of issues when they really blow up in the next
year and a half, because we're still a while away
(10:40):
from the election, but when all of these issues blow up,
I think, really watch to see what Labor and National
do because they have to do this dance where they
don't offend or they don't kind of distance themselves from
their coalition or potential coalition partner too much, yet they
still that kind of person in the center can still
find them appealing.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
So that's the dance that both.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Labor and National are going to have this next year
and a half.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
This is the beginning of actor.
Speaker 7 (11:24):
I think that we can see that pretty crystally clear.
The point that I would really like for us all
to return to right now is that we have a
member of Parliament that has been subjected to immense abuse
and real will death threats which have also incorporated their
child and their pharmo. And the flow and effects of
all of this, including as a result of the fanning
of the flames from Destiny's Church and the Deputy Prime Minister,
(11:46):
is that the Rainbow community is now squealy within the target.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Green's co leader Chloe Swarbrick said that this is a
type of dirty politics in the press conference the other
day addressing the situation.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I think that there are a lot of questions to
be asked around what is fair game when someone is
running for office and when someone is an MP. I
think that digging back through someone's personal instagram will probably
make off a lot of people put them off politics.
I mean, this is kind of that dirty politics that
more personal, that more like identity base, that more language based,
(12:25):
and trawling back through We haven't seen so much of
that in New Zealand politics. We haven't really seen that
many sort of blowups of just kind of using a
meme as much. So I think that it is that
kind of quite yeah, that kind of playbook politics, that
kind of what can we dredge up, how can we
take hold of the media cycle all of that kind
(12:46):
of politics and really negative, negative campaigning, and the kind
of politics that risks the participation of different communities and
making ultimately the parliament more representative. So that really is
it is a bit of a sort of politics as
a strategy, kind of quite that kind of more nastier
side of politics, rather than presenting, say a positive message
(13:08):
forward or really drilling down on any policy issue that
most people want solved.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Well, Winston Peters and it comes as no surprise to
anyone when I say this has always had a bit
of a contentious relationship with the media, and a press
conference that he held on Monday, he kept saying that
he wasn't making accusations or anything.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
He just wanted the media to ask questions.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Now, is he working from the same old playbook here
or is he evolving to play.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Into this new kind of social landscape.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Well, look, this has really grasped a lot of people's attention,
and of course, like I don't think we would be
expecting to necessarily be analyzing queer community slang in such
a detail, and he hears some of those words on
the news was interesting. So definitely Peter's seen an opportunity
to grasp that media spotlight and to really sort of
(13:58):
beat the drum for the kind of broader anti WOP
movement that Peter's and that are trying to grab their
votes to get them to turn out to vote next
time around. So it really has been a bit of
dirty politics, a bit of like pulling on someone's social
media comments, which again just feels ridiculous. There's also that
very uncomfortable kind of tension here, and it goes back
(14:22):
to queer politics in the nineteen eighties and earlier around
the discussion of homosexual law reform, where Peters is in
some way kind of leaving the door open or not
directly accusing Benjamin Doyle of pedophilia. But that is what
a lot of people online are saying, which is disgusting
(14:43):
and one of those things that I just really feel
for Benjamin Doyle and their Farno at the moment. To
be accused of that is quite horrible. But for Peter's
it's really treading that line between doing something that would
amount to something along the lines of defamation or could
potentially lead to legal action and pointing to these online
rumors where someone's going to look them up and see
(15:05):
what the materials say. So Peters is dancing a dancer
to make sure that he doesn't say anything that he
could be liable or you know that it could turn
into a long, long running thing, but still kind of
intimating something quite disgusting and something that's quite strange to
take a step back from and go, is the deputy
Prime Minister or previous deputy Prime minister accusing another MP.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Of being a pedophile.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
It's a weird time, and it's that dance between traditional
media and sending people online to go to all sorts
of corners of the internet. Because again it's one of
those things if you go and start to look up
the materials on this next thing, you know you're down
down in various rabbit holes. So, yeah, a lot of
strange tensions here, and yeah, broadly I think makes me
(15:53):
feel uncomfortable and would make a lot of queer communities
feel uncomfortable too, with the kind of associations that Peters
is intimating.
Speaker 8 (16:04):
Look, I thought the language was really inappropriate. I think
the reality is that the scrutiny and the reality of
political life, our social media language is scrutinized by the media.
It's also scrutinized by fellow politicians and also the public.
And but ultimately that's a case for the Green's leadership
to deal with.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So this story was circulating on social media over the weekend,
but the media didn't report it until the Greens released
a statement. Now, The Ends At Herald's Audrey Young wrote
about this decision and she said, and I quote those
keyboard warriors should know that just because mainstream news outlets
have not published a story, it does not mean that
(16:47):
they have not asked questions or have been working on it.
Sometimes decisions not to cover stories are made not to
protect the subject of the story or to protect a
political party, but because of journalistic ethic.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Now, this is one of those stories.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
That feels like a lose lose, Right, You're going to
piss off sections of the population no matter how you
report on it. Do cases like this and the amplification
of accusations of bias from social media put media in
a more difficult position.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Well, with social media, of course, people can say anything,
people can be anonymous, people can put their name on
it and still say anything.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
More.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Because you've got that distance from a person, you can
go down all sorts of strange theoretical routes and not
really have proof of things. And of course we know
with the sort of social media culture, people see a
line here or there and then they believe one thing
or the other. With the journalistic effects to some degree,
you know, we've seen a lot of strange rumors. I
imagine some of them are true. Some of them are
faults around the place about politicians really heading back more
(17:46):
than one hundred years. You know, there are rumors of
someone doing this, someone doing that, and bits and pieces
and all, there's this gossip and this and that, or
there's a photo or you know, this is not new,
But what is new is the ability for people to
be able to access a lot of different opinions and
bits and pieces that don't have to be backed by
any kind of rigor any kind of methodological reggor or ethics.
(18:08):
And that is concerning because things can take hold and
we see them take hold as well anecdotally of course
around campaigns. Where this is really concerning and we need
to be really careful about and think about in our
democracy is around things like deep fakes, things like AI
and the ability to just create completely false emerge or
video of someone like Luxen and really turn it into
(18:31):
something that's being spread great a scandal really and have
that be spread among members of public. So that's I
think something that we've a lot of researchers overseas are
quite concerned about, and I imagine that that's something that
will start to happen in our elections as well, where
bits and pieces of things attacking out of context and
manipulated AI is involved, you know, paid ads and bits
and pieces could be involved as well, and that's a
(18:52):
real future for concern, especially as we're seeing surveys and
various sort of trust barometer show decreasing trust and leads
and trust in the media. So it's something that we
kind of should be on the lookout for the twenty
twenty six election and elections heading forward. Is a possibility
that you then now have social media take a hold,
you have AI and other technologies intersecting with that, and
(19:13):
that turns into a really negative politics and politics to
not be as safe as a place as it was,
so going back to the nineteen seventies, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
And you've led me really nicely into my last question, Lara.
We are close to eighteen months out from next year's election.
Do you think the fact that we're already having this
type of debate already suggests we could be in for
a difficult campaign.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I suspect that we will be in for a difficult campaign, yes,
because I mean, if you look at what's happened in
a lot of other countries. I mean, we'll be watching
the Australian and Canadian elections, of course, we've got them
coming up in the next month or so. But I
suspect that we will be in for a bit of
a dirty campaign. And again that role of social media,
role of the internet really starting to rear its head
in New Zealand. I guess we'll see what happens across
(19:57):
the ditch in Australia and Canada and their campaigns. But
a lot of people are concerned about the use of
technology and use of ALI more broadly, lelone in New Zealand,
where we do have a range of minority party voices,
that is one of the beauties of our MMP system
is that we've got this diverse speech. But what I
would hope is that you know, freedom of speech is
(20:17):
equally protected across the political spectrum, and yeah, it doesn't
get too nasty, and we don't see political violence or
threats of violence which are just not ideal for anything,
and they don't take anything forward.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Thanks for joining us, Lara Shelda.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
You can read more.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
About today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzadherld dot
co dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan
Sells and Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer.
I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio
or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow
(21:01):
for another look behind the headlines.
Kiyotra.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by The New Zealand Herald. A war
of words has erupted between the Green Party and Enzed
first this week. It comes after photos circulated on social.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Media from a private Instagram account belonging to a Green MP,
Benjamin Doyle. The account, named.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Bible Belt Bussy, also featured photos of their child, including
one with Bussy in the caption. The term originated as
a euphemism for a man's anus and can be used
colloquially by some in the gay community, but Doyle's usage
of it has sparked accusations of vulgarity and being inappropriate.
(00:53):
That was amplified by Deputy Prime Minister Winston Peters, who
said on social media that Doutley should answer for the
posts and that if police want to investigate, they can.
The Green Party has said that Doyle has received death
threats as a result, and have called for the Prime
Minister to intervene. So does this suggest a changing battleground
(01:16):
for politics? With family issues and social media activists taking
center stage Today on the Front Page, we're joined by
Victoria University of Wellington politics professor Lara agrees to discuss
a different type of political scandal. Lara, let's focus on
(01:38):
this incident for starters, what did you think when you
first saw this making the news the other day?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Well, I think initially I thought it was in the news,
and then I went and did some investigating and looked
at what some of the original posts have been, what
different people were saying in the various blogs and various
corners of the Internet. So when I did a bit
of research for my self yesterday after seeing what it
kind of erupted in the media, and basically it maybe
really sad because what we have here is someone whose
(02:09):
child is facing death threats.
Speaker 4 (02:10):
And I really feel.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Sad about that because our politics and altaut is, you know,
it's folksy, it's small, and we like to think that
things are safe.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
And I think a lot of the discourse was that
our dern.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
Faced a lot of threats, but that was an artifact
of COVID, And here we have another MP saying that
they're their own safety and there the safety of their
fano and their child is under threats. So that's ultimately
very concerning, in a very concerning direction for our politics
to go in.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Yeah, focusing on the Greens, though, an argument can be
made that they should have done their due diligence in
preparing a first time MP for the spotlight right, especially
considering the issues they had with MP's last year. Should
someone in the comms team have flagged this kind of
thing earlier.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
It's a really.
Speaker 3 (02:55):
Awkward thing, isn't it, Because ultimately, you know, MPs do
have a level of free speed, and everyone does have
a history. But on the other hand, we know that
politics is rough and humble. People do dig into people's past,
and we've also seen internationally that that's quite a norm
that people dig into people's past. There's let's been less
so in New Zealand unless of course someone's committed a crime,
(03:16):
and a lot of journalists have found bits and pieces
like that in the past. Ultimately, yes, there is an argument.
We've seen Medline, Chapman and the spinoff kind of make
the argument the party perhaps should have protected Benjamin Doyle
a little bit more. It's one of those things that's
hard to say because the other thing. On the other hand,
political parties do have limited resources, so it's a bit
I think people will have their opinions on this one,
(03:38):
and will have their opinions on what they would do
if they were going for sort of public office or
going for a public position as well.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
I think that the discourse generally.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
For most people who's going to the point that we
should google ourselves and figure out what's online about us
at any given moment. I'm alone for an MP, so
I think people will have opinions as to we're having
one's private Instagram up is something that they should or
shouldn't have done. Ultimately, yeah, there's going to just be
mixed opinions on it.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
But I mean this again.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Starts to go back to that freedom of speech debate
as well as at what point is something distasteful to
the mainstream versus harmful in any way. So I think
that this is kind of playing out, but more like.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
The left wing version of that.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
I guess we're used to seeing it more be on
the right where someone said something maybe anti vax or
said something that's been concerning from a different lens.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, I mean other MP's have had the media troll
through their social medias in the past and bring up,
you know, old tweets, etc. Do you think it's fair
game now given that social media is such an integral
part of our lives.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
Is this incident any different from the rest?
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Yeah, well, I remember we saw Ardurn's old tweets surface
at one point where she'd made comments I think it
was about Boris Johnson and that was kind of brought
up in that context. She was I think prime minister,
so a bit of a different context of being a
backbench MP. I think generally we've also seen that for
candidates as well, for different I think was Act Party
candidates that people had gone back through and found bits
(05:06):
and pieces of their opinions on the record going back
a few years. So I think that this is something
that people can expect. Generally, there's a broader conversationist whether
that's fair or should be fair game. I think there's
going to be a generational shift there as well. So
for people who are growing up now all they've known
is the Internet, every bump in the road, every kind
(05:27):
of ideological turn, will soon be quite well documented.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
And in New Zealand we don't have that kind of
right to forget.
Speaker 3 (05:33):
In the way that some of the European data protection
laws do, so I think we can expect to see
a lot more of this and a lot more characterization
of oh is this appropriate?
Speaker 4 (05:42):
Is that appropriate?
Speaker 3 (05:43):
But I think ultimately, I think the decades to come
probably that Gen Alpha gen z is probably will care
a lot less than what is playing out now, which
is definitely a bit more generational differences.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
Oh look, this is identity politics. That it's worse. It's
virtue sitting it. It's worse. All I'm asking you is
ask him to explain his posts. That's all.
Speaker 6 (06:11):
Well, if you haven't seen those phraseology or the photographs
and ask what they're about. And it's beyond me because
at the moment we're passing hundred sixty four thousand on
our post who want to have the same answers are
manning them from the rainbow groups.
Speaker 5 (06:28):
So to speak. Did I say there are thousands.
Speaker 6 (06:31):
Of them from the rainbow groups. So it's not an anti
rambo thing. It's a straight out question that you've asked
countless members of parliament about their posts. You said, those
members of parliament, what does your post mean? And I'm
asking you how comes seventy four hours later you haven't
asked the question.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
Looking at New Zealand, first, what do you make of
Winston Peters getting involved in this debate and refusing to
down when is being challenged.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
He seems pretty determined to take a stand on this one.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Fundamentally, in New Zealand, first they need to get to
the five percent party vote threshold. And so now we're
sitting in about a year and a half out from
the election, they need to start thinking about how do
they get to that five percent. New Zealand Attitudes and
Value study data and various other data sources show that
two to three percent of voters are loyal to them,
so they normally have to find that couple of percent
from elsewhere. And I think a lot of us have
(07:27):
been discussing where will where will they find that vote
and make sure that they do now that five percent
threshold that they need one of the kind of rhetorical
strategies they've definitely gone down as they woke the importing,
the cultural wars, they woke anti woke the DEI. We've
seen a lot of kind of discussion about diversity and
inclusion initiatives and the public service coming from New Zealand. First,
(07:48):
this does seem to be the route that they're going down.
The whole PC gone mad was the kind of version
of it. Twenty years ago, and a non binary Takatapui
MP in the Greens does represent lot of that what
they would call the woke sort of movement. Others would
just call social justice or inclusion or representation your demographic
representation of communities in Altauto and New Zealand. So they've really,
(08:12):
i think used Benjamin Doyle's Instagram posts as a lightning
rod of thoughts for this and to kind of bring
together sort of various interests on the Internet to try
to really target a non binary MP.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
So those are the dynamics that are playing out.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
We've also seen Peter's refuse to use Benjamin Doyle's they
then pronouns instead using Heim pronouns for them. That's another
thing that we've seen internationally as well, when people are
engaging in that culture wars type thing and the inclusion
or exclusion of non binary people. So that's another kind
of strategy that we see around the world. So ultimately
(08:49):
New Zealand first are really importing a lot of culture
wars rhetoric, a lot of anti woke DEI rhetoric that
we're seeing a lot in the States and in Canada.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, and I guess it's no we're under Noah usion
where that's come from?
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Right? I saw Shane Jones wearing a New Zealand Make
New Zealand Great Again cap on Twitter or x rather
just recently in terms of I guess the Benjamin Doyle situation,
I found it interesting Madame and Davidson. In the press
conference that the Greens held, she mentioned that this comes
directly from the same playbook as the situations with say
(09:26):
Destiny Church and the drag storytime events being dismantled by them.
That's the playbook that we're talking about. Hey, that's the
kind of the rhetoric and the train that New Zealand
First is on, and that's where they're going to try
and seek that one in two percent.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Yeah, and if we see like where a lot of
the sort of Benjamin Doyle type opinion pieces at the
moment are from Family First, which we know kind of
conservative lobby group. So I think that this is one
of those there First is right cultural issues at the moment.
But ultimately I think what it comes down to is
there a lot of New Zealanders in the middle. There
are a lot of New Zealanders that would be looking
at all of this and going yuch or getting put
(10:04):
off politics and all of our elections. What they will
come down to is who can form a coalition and
who can win over those middle voters. So one of
the things I'm now watching, of course knowing New Zealand
versus is obviously trying to drum up votes the political parties.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
That's what they do. You know, the Greens are doing
the same.
Speaker 3 (10:20):
I'm looking at Labor and National and that fight for
the middle, that fight for that you know five to
ten percent of voters that we know that float between parties.
Haven't heard anything yet from Labor on this. Of course
saw Luxon's comments yesterday around inappropriate language. But these kind
of issues when they really blow up in the next
year and a half, because we're still a while away
(10:40):
from the election, but when all of these issues blow up,
I think, really watch to see what Labor and National
do because they have to do this dance where they
don't offend or they don't kind of distance themselves from
their coalition or potential coalition partner too much, yet they
still that kind of person in the center can still
find them appealing.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
So that's the dance that both.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Labor and National are going to have this next year
and a half.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
This is the beginning of actor.
Speaker 7 (11:24):
I think that we can see that pretty crystally clear.
The point that I would really like for us all
to return to right now is that we have a
member of Parliament that has been subjected to immense abuse
and real will death threats which have also incorporated their
child and their pharmo. And the flow and effects of
all of this, including as a result of the fanning
of the flames from Destiny's Church and the Deputy Prime Minister,
(11:46):
is that the Rainbow community is now squealy within the target.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Green's co leader Chloe Swarbrick said that this is a
type of dirty politics in the press conference the other
day addressing the situation.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Would you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I think that there are a lot of questions to
be asked around what is fair game when someone is
running for office and when someone is an MP. I
think that digging back through someone's personal instagram will probably
make off a lot of people put them off politics.
I mean, this is kind of that dirty politics that
more personal, that more like identity base, that more language based,
(12:25):
and trawling back through We haven't seen so much of
that in New Zealand politics. We haven't really seen that
many sort of blowups of just kind of using a
meme as much. So I think that it is that
kind of quite yeah, that kind of playbook politics, that
kind of what can we dredge up, how can we
take hold of the media cycle all of that kind
(12:46):
of politics and really negative, negative campaigning, and the kind
of politics that risks the participation of different communities and
making ultimately the parliament more representative. So that really is
it is a bit of a sort of politics as
a strategy, kind of quite that kind of more nastier
side of politics, rather than presenting, say a positive message
(13:08):
forward or really drilling down on any policy issue that
most people want solved.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Well, Winston Peters and it comes as no surprise to
anyone when I say this has always had a bit
of a contentious relationship with the media, and a press
conference that he held on Monday, he kept saying that
he wasn't making accusations or anything.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
He just wanted the media to ask questions.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
Now, is he working from the same old playbook here
or is he evolving to play.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Into this new kind of social landscape.
Speaker 3 (13:36):
Well, look, this has really grasped a lot of people's attention,
and of course, like I don't think we would be
expecting to necessarily be analyzing queer community slang in such
a detail, and he hears some of those words on
the news was interesting. So definitely Peter's seen an opportunity
to grasp that media spotlight and to really sort of
(13:58):
beat the drum for the kind of broader anti WOP
movement that Peter's and that are trying to grab their
votes to get them to turn out to vote next
time around. So it really has been a bit of
dirty politics, a bit of like pulling on someone's social
media comments, which again just feels ridiculous. There's also that
very uncomfortable kind of tension here, and it goes back
(14:22):
to queer politics in the nineteen eighties and earlier around
the discussion of homosexual law reform, where Peters is in
some way kind of leaving the door open or not
directly accusing Benjamin Doyle of pedophilia. But that is what
a lot of people online are saying, which is disgusting
(14:43):
and one of those things that I just really feel
for Benjamin Doyle and their Farno at the moment. To
be accused of that is quite horrible. But for Peter's
it's really treading that line between doing something that would
amount to something along the lines of defamation or could
potentially lead to legal action and pointing to these online
rumors where someone's going to look them up and see
(15:05):
what the materials say. So Peters is dancing a dancer
to make sure that he doesn't say anything that he
could be liable or you know that it could turn
into a long, long running thing, but still kind of
intimating something quite disgusting and something that's quite strange to
take a step back from and go, is the deputy
Prime Minister or previous deputy Prime minister accusing another MP.
Speaker 4 (15:29):
Of being a pedophile.
Speaker 3 (15:31):
It's a weird time, and it's that dance between traditional
media and sending people online to go to all sorts
of corners of the internet. Because again it's one of
those things if you go and start to look up
the materials on this next thing, you know you're down
down in various rabbit holes. So, yeah, a lot of
strange tensions here, and yeah, broadly I think makes me
(15:53):
feel uncomfortable and would make a lot of queer communities
feel uncomfortable too, with the kind of associations that Peters
is intimating.
Speaker 8 (16:04):
Look, I thought the language was really inappropriate. I think
the reality is that the scrutiny and the reality of
political life, our social media language is scrutinized by the media.
It's also scrutinized by fellow politicians and also the public.
And but ultimately that's a case for the Green's leadership
to deal with.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
So this story was circulating on social media over the weekend,
but the media didn't report it until the Greens released
a statement. Now, The Ends At Herald's Audrey Young wrote
about this decision and she said, and I quote those
keyboard warriors should know that just because mainstream news outlets
have not published a story, it does not mean that
(16:47):
they have not asked questions or have been working on it.
Sometimes decisions not to cover stories are made not to
protect the subject of the story or to protect a
political party, but because of journalistic ethic.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Now, this is one of those stories.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
That feels like a lose lose, Right, You're going to
piss off sections of the population no matter how you
report on it. Do cases like this and the amplification
of accusations of bias from social media put media in
a more difficult position.
Speaker 3 (17:16):
Well, with social media, of course, people can say anything,
people can be anonymous, people can put their name on
it and still say anything.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
More.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Because you've got that distance from a person, you can
go down all sorts of strange theoretical routes and not
really have proof of things. And of course we know
with the sort of social media culture, people see a
line here or there and then they believe one thing
or the other. With the journalistic effects to some degree,
you know, we've seen a lot of strange rumors. I
imagine some of them are true. Some of them are
faults around the place about politicians really heading back more
(17:46):
than one hundred years. You know, there are rumors of
someone doing this, someone doing that, and bits and pieces
and all, there's this gossip and this and that, or
there's a photo or you know, this is not new,
But what is new is the ability for people to
be able to access a lot of different opinions and
bits and pieces that don't have to be backed by
any kind of rigor any kind of methodological reggor or ethics.
(18:08):
And that is concerning because things can take hold and
we see them take hold as well anecdotally of course
around campaigns. Where this is really concerning and we need
to be really careful about and think about in our
democracy is around things like deep fakes, things like AI
and the ability to just create completely false emerge or
video of someone like Luxen and really turn it into
(18:31):
something that's being spread great a scandal really and have
that be spread among members of public. So that's I
think something that we've a lot of researchers overseas are
quite concerned about, and I imagine that that's something that
will start to happen in our elections as well, where
bits and pieces of things attacking out of context and
manipulated AI is involved, you know, paid ads and bits
and pieces could be involved as well, and that's a
(18:52):
real future for concern, especially as we're seeing surveys and
various sort of trust barometer show decreasing trust and leads
and trust in the media. So it's something that we
kind of should be on the lookout for the twenty
twenty six election and elections heading forward. Is a possibility
that you then now have social media take a hold,
you have AI and other technologies intersecting with that, and
(19:13):
that turns into a really negative politics and politics to
not be as safe as a place as it was,
so going back to the nineteen seventies, you know.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
And you've led me really nicely into my last question, Lara.
We are close to eighteen months out from next year's election.
Do you think the fact that we're already having this
type of debate already suggests we could be in for
a difficult campaign.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I suspect that we will be in for a difficult campaign, yes,
because I mean, if you look at what's happened in
a lot of other countries. I mean, we'll be watching
the Australian and Canadian elections, of course, we've got them
coming up in the next month or so. But I
suspect that we will be in for a bit of
a dirty campaign. And again that role of social media,
role of the internet really starting to rear its head
in New Zealand. I guess we'll see what happens across
(19:57):
the ditch in Australia and Canada and their campaigns. But
a lot of people are concerned about the use of
technology and use of ALI more broadly, lelone in New Zealand,
where we do have a range of minority party voices,
that is one of the beauties of our MMP system
is that we've got this diverse speech. But what I
would hope is that you know, freedom of speech is
(20:17):
equally protected across the political spectrum, and yeah, it doesn't
get too nasty, and we don't see political violence or
threats of violence which are just not ideal for anything,
and they don't take anything forward.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
Thanks for joining us, Lara Shelda.
Speaker 4 (20:32):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
That's it for this episode of the Front Page.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
You can read more.
Speaker 2 (20:40):
About today's stories and extensive news coverage at enzadherld dot
co dot nz. The Front Page is produced by Ethan
Sells and Richard Martin, who is also our sound engineer.
I'm Chelsea Daniels. Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio
or wherever you get your podcasts, and tune in tomorrow
(21:01):
for another look behind the headlines.
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