November 20, 2024 • 18 mins
The Government’s promised the “free ride” for gangs, is officially over.
From today, gang patches will no longer be allowed to be worn in public, courts will be able to issue non-consorting orders, and Police will be able to stop members from communicating with each other.
Greater weight will also be given to gang membership at sentencing – and repeat offenders continually convicted of displaying their patches in public will be subject to a new court order, prohibiting them from possessing any gang insignia in public, or private, for five years.
But any of this be any kind of deterrent to the more than 9000 gang members in New Zealand?
Today on The Front Page, lifetime Black Power member and community advocate Denis O'Reilly is with us to discuss his perspective on these new laws.
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You can read more about this and other stories in the New Zealand Herald, online at nzherald.co.nz, or tune in to news bulletins across the NZME network.
Host: Chelsea Daniels
Sound Engineer/Producer: Richard Martin
Producer: Ethan Sills
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Kiota.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The government's
promised the free ride for gangs is officially over. From today,
gang patches will no longer be allowed to be worn
in public, Courts will be able to issue non consulting orders,
(00:29):
and police will be able to stop members from communicating
with each other. Greater weight will also be given to
gang membership as sentencing, and repeat offenders continually convicted of
displaying their patches in public will.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Be subject to a new court order.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Prohibiting them from possessing any gang insignia in public or
private for five years. But will any of this be
any kind of deterrent to the reported more than nine.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Thousand gang members in New us Zealand.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Today on the front page, lifetime Black Power member and
community advocate Dennis O'Reilly is with us to discuss his
perspective on these new laws. Dennis, just for starters, can
you introduce yourself to our listeners? What's your background and
why are you perhaps a good person to be able
(01:22):
to talk to us about gangs.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
I joined the Black Pair in nineteen seventy two. I
became the chief executive of the Group Employment Liaison Service,
which was a government agency set up after the Committee
on Gangs in nineteen eighty one. I've studied gangs internationally
and in twenty eleven I put my patch down and
(01:44):
became a Comato or parkeke for the funu of the
first to the Black Pair.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
So police has this document called the National Gang List,
which attempts to record patched and prospect members of gangs
in New Zealand. Now, its primary purpose isn't to count
the membership numbers, but it gives us a pretty good
indication on how many numbers there are and how it's
tracking overall.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I don't think it does.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
You don't reckon So at the moment it has members
at nine thousand, four hundred and forty seven.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Does that not sound right?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Well, I don't know. Prior to you know, all through
the seventies and eighties and until the Fourth Labor Government,
gang membership stated about two and a half thousand, and
was actually declining because of the presence of work schemes
and those sorts of things. I'm no longer on the
gang list, but it took some doing to get into
(02:39):
that state. And so when people die, or when there's
a rough calculation of who you might be, or you know,
if you've come to Jesus and changed your mind or whatever,
so you don't necessarily fall off. So I don't know
how valid that information.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Is, right, So it could be a lot less you reckon.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
It could be a lot more.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I know you've.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Probably been asked this a thousand times, but I'm going
to go ahead and ask you once more.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Why do people join gangs?
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Oh, for a variety of reasons. It's interesting that we've
just come through the apology by the government on the
Royal Commission of Abuse and State Care, and the two
largest indigenous gangs basically came out of the boys' homes,
the Black Power and the Mongrel Bob, and that's been
(03:28):
clearly indicated in the evidence. And they were alienated and
marginalized by the state, and so the gang became an
act of resistance. It became a family that they could
feel safe. And after the Labor Government of the Fourth
Labor Government stopped all the work schemes, the gangs tended
(03:51):
to become criminalized. There's a different thing, I think between
what you might call organized crime and more sociological phenomenon
of the indigenous New Zealand gang, and so the next
generation we're born into that life. That's what you've got.
You've got into generational transfer. For some people, that's labeling.
(04:15):
If you come from a certain town or a certain suburb,
you're automatically assumed to be a member of this or
that group. So there are a variety of reasons why
you end up being called a gang member.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
What do you make of the government's crackdown on gangs.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Well, it's consistent with their desire to double the prison population,
to increase the creator super prison and lock up more
young Malti people. It's a turn to the right. It
is a discontinuity and the only thing that we can
be sure about where there are discontinuities is that you
(04:51):
can't be sure.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Gangs pedal misery and intimidation throughout our communities, and this
go determined to give police and the courts the powers
they need to deal with them. Just one in every
four hundred New Zealanders are identified as gang members, yet
they're linked to nearly one in five serious violent crime offenses.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So people join gangs for all different kinds of reasons.
And you've mentioned that intergenerational reason as well. It's not
just about a bunch of people gravitating towards a life
of crime or anything, is it. I mean, has it
a guess how many gang members actually participate in crime?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I would say a small percentage. I think in the
main most are tax paying New Zealand citizens and try
and struggling to be good parents. In the same way
as cricketers and whatever might use cocaine or other people
indulge in different sort of recreational substances, so do gang members.
(06:00):
But in the main, if we can get people into
employment and keep them employment, you know, that's what they'll be,
tax paying citizens. Where we marginalize and demonize, that's when
you start to set up that sort of last resort
criminal activity thing. And we have to be cautious about this.
(06:21):
The previous commissioner, I think was pretty smart where there
was a high degree of liaison and a readiness to
have a big stick if you wanted to move into
organized crime or disruptive behavior. The big shift that I
have noticed is a move much more towards Faro and
(06:43):
Wahini leadership, and I think it's no mistake. You know,
for instance, that the Malti Queen is a young malty woman,
that are MP's a young malty women. And I think
that Wahini led far have actually made a huge change
(07:03):
and that change has been developing, and I hope this
new policy does not interrupt that trend.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
How seriously do you think gang members will take the
ban on patches and insignia?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Well, I think most will follow mister Goldsmith's advice, and
that is struggle not to get caught. And the advice
from most leaders is, you know, leave your patch at
home until we see how this thing works out. But
you know, if you try and take a patch of
someone by force, you can expect to have force in response.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And do you think that's what's going to happen.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I don't know. As I said, it's a bit like
mister Trump's presidency, we don't really know what's going to
roll out, do we.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
If you're not allowed to wear your patches, aren't there
other ways I imagine, well a gang picking a color
or something exactly.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
It's semiotics, you know. For instance, you know, I come
from the fahna of the fist. The fist is an
upraised fist as a sign of resistance that's internationally accepted.
We've often used Nelson Mandela's fist as a semiotic our
colors are police blue. Yes, you start to try and
(08:18):
unpick these things at a semiotic level, you really end
up in a struggle and you could end up with
the Nike Swish as being you know so so young
people particularly are very very quick on social media, and
these things will morph and change. It's not what you're wear,
it's how you behave that's the issue. And if we
(08:41):
focused on behaviors, that's where we'll get societal change. I
can understand where people get intimidated by a big batch
of gang members, especially if they're behaving abysmally. But I
was on that Hekoy there were well over forty thousand
people there. There were a lot of people with the
(09:01):
mutter aura, with facial mukalls, with carrying weapons as traditional
weapons and whatever, and the vibe was fantastic. So it's
not just a big collection of people. The police already
had the provisions of the Unlawful Assemblies Act well, where
three or more people gathered together causing the stress of
(09:21):
fear amongst the public could be arrested and see so
in a way, this new legislation is just pandering to
an anxious, white middle class population, who the research demonstrates
are the people less likely to be affected by gang activity.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
In terms of gang patches, Dennis, what do you have
to do to get one?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Do you have to do something bad?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Well? I earned a patch, and I don't think i'd
anything bad. I'm no saint, but I was good at organizing, work,
at finding people accommodation, helping people get representation and the law.
So like most, you know, the all blacks have a
thing of no idiots, you know, and so generally showing
(10:18):
that you're prepared to contribute to your fano, to work,
to assist, to try and make things better. I don't
know of any specific club that says you've got to
go and commit crime, although I've heard those stories.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, is that a bit of a misconception that all
patched members have done something? You know, that they've had
to go and do something.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
There will be different crews who have got different morals
and values.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
When it comes to gangs.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
We're constantly told things like prison is the gang's recruitment center.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Is this Trueue?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
That's true?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So what happens there?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Well, I mean you're in a closed environment. Prison by
nature is a violent society and the research demonstrates that,
and so you better affiliate with someone.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
And when it comes to those anti consorting laws and
stopping members from communicating with each other, what do you
think the repercussions will be by I guess criminalizing people
because of association rather than their behaviors.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Well, in the main where Maori and Polynesian where gregarious,
we're part of broad network families and it's going to
be a bit difficult, isn't it, you know, And I mean,
you know, we saw the two hoy raids and the
misreading of what was going on there, and I think
there's lots of potential for that, and that's why I
(11:42):
think softly softly. I heard mister Basham speaking earlier about
that they the police will be taking a cautious approach,
and so I think we just need to make sure
that everyone's faro is safe. And by that I mean
Gangfarno and police Farno. Those policemen and policewomen want to
(12:02):
go home to their farna at the end of the day,
and similarly, gangfaro don't want men coming in smashing down
their doors and terrifying their kids and the older people.
So you know, I think let's you know, focus on
on sort of looking after each other, pro social leaders
(12:25):
to the four please, But we are entering uncharted their
waters here, and yeah, I don't. I can't really predict.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Do you think gangs can be their own worst enemies
at times? Do you look at incidents like the gang
war between the Killer Bees and the Tribesmen say in
twenty twenty two, the Sofotel lobby shooting a few years
back involving patched head hunters, Look, yeah, do you see
those and just shake your head?
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Self defeating behaviors, misapplied intellects, all of that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Absolutely, these incidents don't really dear gangs to the public
or to politicians or police, do they?
Speaker 1 (13:04):
No?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
And I think the gang members telling you they don't
care stuff. You know, they've been rejected by society, labeled
and demonized, and this is their response.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Do you think some gangs are better than others in
terms of working together with society and being able to
get along.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
It's hard to It's all depended upon leadership, and there
will be maladjusted leaders in one group that a generation
before may have been led in a very positive direction
that may then go down a very negative direction. I
(13:44):
think the arrival of meth amphetamine changed a whole lot
of things. But let's face it, the people who make
money from meth tend not to live in New Zealand.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
When you've got game members out there that don't stick
to the rules like everyone else and run rossshot over
the top of people's rights, when they have a trail
of misery and victims sitting behind them, they're going to
lose some rights. So when they want to actually, when
they want to front up and atually join society in
a positive way and do what everyone else does and
shot and be proud key weies that actually adhered to
(14:18):
the law, then they might get some rights back.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
The Attorney General, Judith Collins, has made references to the
Bill of Rights and said banning insignia in public places,
for example, breached the right to freedom of expression. Instead,
she noted there could be more tailored offenses, like protecting
the public from intimidations by gangs, for example, for making
it illegal to wear patches in places like schools or hospitals.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Do you reckon that's more reasonable?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Well, look the most outrageous thing that happened in New
Zealand a white Australian who've got a guden license. So
I think you need to have a wider lens than
picking on young indigenous populations.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
You're talking about multi and pacifica games right, black power
mongol mob. But there are those that we've imported, like
the killerbes, the tribesmen, headhunters. Do you reckon it's got
the same values as you.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Well, the tribesmen, killerbs and headhunters are all all tend
to be marrying polynesia themselves. You know, you've got this
five oh one thing and you've got you know, but
we have real international criminal organizations working in this country,
at work in this country, and I put it to
(15:39):
you that they might dress in suits and attend large
political party fundraisers. You know, that's really where the money is.
And so most of what you see on the periphery
well down the criminal value chain, as it were, but
that's where most of the energy gets. I often think
(16:02):
that sometimes middle white New Zealand thinks that the Mari
gang member is like the Mari warrior coming to collect
the rent, and they get trepidation at that level. So
I just think in this whole heated environment at the moment,
the apology by the crown, the doubling, the intention by
(16:26):
the state to double the prison population, the building of
mega prisons. I mean, who's going to go in there?
You know, the business people on that, They'll get Ron
Mansfield k C to represent them. You know, our fellows
can't even get Section twenty sevens Now, if.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
People are worried about people joining gangs and the violence
that some members may perpetrate, what do you think should
be done to tackle these issues.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
I think that you engage people in work, in education,
that you stop the labeling and you reach out. This
young brown population are the working population. They're going to
keep old white folks in their pensions in years to come.
So rather than alienating and marginalizing them, let's work with them.
(17:15):
You know, I think there has been some good work
going on, but I'm on that front line. You know,
I've been a senior civil servant. I've administered national programs
of that focused around work, and we've pulled all of
that stuff away or we're doing. Angela Davis, that great
(17:35):
you know, American liberationist. She says that the prison industrial industry,
you know is the new cotton fields, where where black
people get locked up to make money for white people.
So let's let's back off, calm down and get back
on track in terms of engaging people in work and
(17:58):
believing that our young people are full of potential rather
than pathology.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Thanks for joining us, Dennis Sweet.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzedherld dot co dot nz.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
The Front Page is produced.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
By Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our
sound engineer.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
Kiota.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
I'm Chelsea Daniels and this is the Front Page, a
daily podcast presented by the New Zealand Herald. The government's
promised the free ride for gangs is officially over. From today,
gang patches will no longer be allowed to be worn
in public, Courts will be able to issue non consulting orders,
(00:29):
and police will be able to stop members from communicating
with each other. Greater weight will also be given to
gang membership as sentencing, and repeat offenders continually convicted of
displaying their patches in public will.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Be subject to a new court order.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
Prohibiting them from possessing any gang insignia in public or
private for five years. But will any of this be
any kind of deterrent to the reported more than nine.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Thousand gang members in New us Zealand.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Today on the front page, lifetime Black Power member and
community advocate Dennis O'Reilly is with us to discuss his
perspective on these new laws. Dennis, just for starters, can
you introduce yourself to our listeners? What's your background and
why are you perhaps a good person to be able
(01:22):
to talk to us about gangs.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
I joined the Black Pair in nineteen seventy two. I
became the chief executive of the Group Employment Liaison Service,
which was a government agency set up after the Committee
on Gangs in nineteen eighty one. I've studied gangs internationally
and in twenty eleven I put my patch down and
(01:44):
became a Comato or parkeke for the funu of the
first to the Black Pair.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
So police has this document called the National Gang List,
which attempts to record patched and prospect members of gangs
in New Zealand. Now, its primary purpose isn't to count
the membership numbers, but it gives us a pretty good
indication on how many numbers there are and how it's
tracking overall.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
I don't think it does.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
You don't reckon So at the moment it has members
at nine thousand, four hundred and forty seven.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Does that not sound right?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Well, I don't know. Prior to you know, all through
the seventies and eighties and until the Fourth Labor Government,
gang membership stated about two and a half thousand, and
was actually declining because of the presence of work schemes
and those sorts of things. I'm no longer on the
gang list, but it took some doing to get into
(02:39):
that state. And so when people die, or when there's
a rough calculation of who you might be, or you know,
if you've come to Jesus and changed your mind or whatever,
so you don't necessarily fall off. So I don't know
how valid that information.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Is, right, So it could be a lot less you reckon.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
It could be a lot more.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
I know you've.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Probably been asked this a thousand times, but I'm going
to go ahead and ask you once more.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Why do people join gangs?
Speaker 3 (03:08):
Oh, for a variety of reasons. It's interesting that we've
just come through the apology by the government on the
Royal Commission of Abuse and State Care, and the two
largest indigenous gangs basically came out of the boys' homes,
the Black Power and the Mongrel Bob, and that's been
(03:28):
clearly indicated in the evidence. And they were alienated and
marginalized by the state, and so the gang became an
act of resistance. It became a family that they could
feel safe. And after the Labor Government of the Fourth
Labor Government stopped all the work schemes, the gangs tended
(03:51):
to become criminalized. There's a different thing, I think between
what you might call organized crime and more sociological phenomenon
of the indigenous New Zealand gang, and so the next
generation we're born into that life. That's what you've got.
You've got into generational transfer. For some people, that's labeling.
(04:15):
If you come from a certain town or a certain suburb,
you're automatically assumed to be a member of this or
that group. So there are a variety of reasons why
you end up being called a gang member.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
What do you make of the government's crackdown on gangs.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
Well, it's consistent with their desire to double the prison population,
to increase the creator super prison and lock up more
young Malti people. It's a turn to the right. It
is a discontinuity and the only thing that we can
be sure about where there are discontinuities is that you
(04:51):
can't be sure.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
Gangs pedal misery and intimidation throughout our communities, and this
go determined to give police and the courts the powers
they need to deal with them. Just one in every
four hundred New Zealanders are identified as gang members, yet
they're linked to nearly one in five serious violent crime offenses.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
So people join gangs for all different kinds of reasons.
And you've mentioned that intergenerational reason as well. It's not
just about a bunch of people gravitating towards a life
of crime or anything, is it. I mean, has it
a guess how many gang members actually participate in crime?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
I would say a small percentage. I think in the
main most are tax paying New Zealand citizens and try
and struggling to be good parents. In the same way
as cricketers and whatever might use cocaine or other people
indulge in different sort of recreational substances, so do gang members.
(06:00):
But in the main, if we can get people into
employment and keep them employment, you know, that's what they'll be,
tax paying citizens. Where we marginalize and demonize, that's when
you start to set up that sort of last resort
criminal activity thing. And we have to be cautious about this.
(06:21):
The previous commissioner, I think was pretty smart where there
was a high degree of liaison and a readiness to
have a big stick if you wanted to move into
organized crime or disruptive behavior. The big shift that I
have noticed is a move much more towards Faro and
(06:43):
Wahini leadership, and I think it's no mistake. You know,
for instance, that the Malti Queen is a young malty woman,
that are MP's a young malty women. And I think
that Wahini led far have actually made a huge change
(07:03):
and that change has been developing, and I hope this
new policy does not interrupt that trend.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
How seriously do you think gang members will take the
ban on patches and insignia?
Speaker 3 (07:16):
Well, I think most will follow mister Goldsmith's advice, and
that is struggle not to get caught. And the advice
from most leaders is, you know, leave your patch at
home until we see how this thing works out. But
you know, if you try and take a patch of
someone by force, you can expect to have force in response.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
And do you think that's what's going to happen.
Speaker 3 (07:43):
I don't know. As I said, it's a bit like
mister Trump's presidency, we don't really know what's going to
roll out, do we.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
If you're not allowed to wear your patches, aren't there
other ways I imagine, well a gang picking a color
or something exactly.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
It's semiotics, you know. For instance, you know, I come
from the fahna of the fist. The fist is an
upraised fist as a sign of resistance that's internationally accepted.
We've often used Nelson Mandela's fist as a semiotic our
colors are police blue. Yes, you start to try and
(08:18):
unpick these things at a semiotic level, you really end
up in a struggle and you could end up with
the Nike Swish as being you know so so young
people particularly are very very quick on social media, and
these things will morph and change. It's not what you're wear,
it's how you behave that's the issue. And if we
(08:41):
focused on behaviors, that's where we'll get societal change. I
can understand where people get intimidated by a big batch
of gang members, especially if they're behaving abysmally. But I
was on that Hekoy there were well over forty thousand
people there. There were a lot of people with the
(09:01):
mutter aura, with facial mukalls, with carrying weapons as traditional
weapons and whatever, and the vibe was fantastic. So it's
not just a big collection of people. The police already
had the provisions of the Unlawful Assemblies Act well, where
three or more people gathered together causing the stress of
(09:21):
fear amongst the public could be arrested and see so
in a way, this new legislation is just pandering to
an anxious, white middle class population, who the research demonstrates
are the people less likely to be affected by gang activity.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
In terms of gang patches, Dennis, what do you have
to do to get one?
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Do you have to do something bad?
Speaker 3 (09:56):
Well? I earned a patch, and I don't think i'd
anything bad. I'm no saint, but I was good at organizing, work,
at finding people accommodation, helping people get representation and the law.
So like most, you know, the all blacks have a
thing of no idiots, you know, and so generally showing
(10:18):
that you're prepared to contribute to your fano, to work,
to assist, to try and make things better. I don't
know of any specific club that says you've got to
go and commit crime, although I've heard those stories.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, is that a bit of a misconception that all
patched members have done something? You know, that they've had
to go and do something.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
There will be different crews who have got different morals
and values.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
When it comes to gangs.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
We're constantly told things like prison is the gang's recruitment center.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
Is this Trueue?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
That's true?
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So what happens there?
Speaker 3 (10:52):
Well, I mean you're in a closed environment. Prison by
nature is a violent society and the research demonstrates that,
and so you better affiliate with someone.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
And when it comes to those anti consorting laws and
stopping members from communicating with each other, what do you
think the repercussions will be by I guess criminalizing people
because of association rather than their behaviors.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Well, in the main where Maori and Polynesian where gregarious,
we're part of broad network families and it's going to
be a bit difficult, isn't it, you know, And I mean,
you know, we saw the two hoy raids and the
misreading of what was going on there, and I think
there's lots of potential for that, and that's why I
(11:42):
think softly softly. I heard mister Basham speaking earlier about
that they the police will be taking a cautious approach,
and so I think we just need to make sure
that everyone's faro is safe. And by that I mean
Gangfarno and police Farno. Those policemen and policewomen want to
(12:02):
go home to their farna at the end of the day,
and similarly, gangfaro don't want men coming in smashing down
their doors and terrifying their kids and the older people.
So you know, I think let's you know, focus on
on sort of looking after each other, pro social leaders
(12:25):
to the four please, But we are entering uncharted their
waters here, and yeah, I don't. I can't really predict.
Speaker 2 (12:35):
Do you think gangs can be their own worst enemies
at times? Do you look at incidents like the gang
war between the Killer Bees and the Tribesmen say in
twenty twenty two, the Sofotel lobby shooting a few years
back involving patched head hunters, Look, yeah, do you see
those and just shake your head?
Speaker 3 (12:51):
Self defeating behaviors, misapplied intellects, all of that sort of stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Absolutely, these incidents don't really dear gangs to the public
or to politicians or police, do they?
Speaker 1 (13:04):
No?
Speaker 3 (13:05):
And I think the gang members telling you they don't
care stuff. You know, they've been rejected by society, labeled
and demonized, and this is their response.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Do you think some gangs are better than others in
terms of working together with society and being able to
get along.
Speaker 3 (13:23):
It's hard to It's all depended upon leadership, and there
will be maladjusted leaders in one group that a generation
before may have been led in a very positive direction
that may then go down a very negative direction. I
(13:44):
think the arrival of meth amphetamine changed a whole lot
of things. But let's face it, the people who make
money from meth tend not to live in New Zealand.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
When you've got game members out there that don't stick
to the rules like everyone else and run rossshot over
the top of people's rights, when they have a trail
of misery and victims sitting behind them, they're going to
lose some rights. So when they want to actually, when
they want to front up and atually join society in
a positive way and do what everyone else does and
shot and be proud key weies that actually adhered to
(14:18):
the law, then they might get some rights back.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
The Attorney General, Judith Collins, has made references to the
Bill of Rights and said banning insignia in public places,
for example, breached the right to freedom of expression. Instead,
she noted there could be more tailored offenses, like protecting
the public from intimidations by gangs, for example, for making
it illegal to wear patches in places like schools or hospitals.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Do you reckon that's more reasonable?
Speaker 3 (14:47):
Well, look the most outrageous thing that happened in New
Zealand a white Australian who've got a guden license. So
I think you need to have a wider lens than
picking on young indigenous populations.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
You're talking about multi and pacifica games right, black power
mongol mob. But there are those that we've imported, like
the killerbes, the tribesmen, headhunters. Do you reckon it's got
the same values as you.
Speaker 3 (15:16):
Well, the tribesmen, killerbs and headhunters are all all tend
to be marrying polynesia themselves. You know, you've got this
five oh one thing and you've got you know, but
we have real international criminal organizations working in this country,
at work in this country, and I put it to
(15:39):
you that they might dress in suits and attend large
political party fundraisers. You know, that's really where the money is.
And so most of what you see on the periphery
well down the criminal value chain, as it were, but
that's where most of the energy gets. I often think
(16:02):
that sometimes middle white New Zealand thinks that the Mari
gang member is like the Mari warrior coming to collect
the rent, and they get trepidation at that level. So
I just think in this whole heated environment at the moment,
the apology by the crown, the doubling, the intention by
(16:26):
the state to double the prison population, the building of
mega prisons. I mean, who's going to go in there?
You know, the business people on that, They'll get Ron
Mansfield k C to represent them. You know, our fellows
can't even get Section twenty sevens Now, if.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
People are worried about people joining gangs and the violence
that some members may perpetrate, what do you think should
be done to tackle these issues.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
I think that you engage people in work, in education,
that you stop the labeling and you reach out. This
young brown population are the working population. They're going to
keep old white folks in their pensions in years to come.
So rather than alienating and marginalizing them, let's work with them.
(17:15):
You know, I think there has been some good work
going on, but I'm on that front line. You know,
I've been a senior civil servant. I've administered national programs
of that focused around work, and we've pulled all of
that stuff away or we're doing. Angela Davis, that great
(17:35):
you know, American liberationist. She says that the prison industrial industry,
you know is the new cotton fields, where where black
people get locked up to make money for white people.
So let's let's back off, calm down and get back
on track in terms of engaging people in work and
(17:58):
believing that our young people are full of potential rather
than pathology.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Thanks for joining us, Dennis Sweet.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
That's it for this episode of The Front Page. You
can read more about today's stories and extensive news coverage
at enzedherld dot co dot nz.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
The Front Page is produced.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
By Ethan Sills and Richard Martin, who is also our
sound engineer.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
I'm Chelsea Daniels.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Subscribe to the Front Page on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your
Speaker 1 (18:33):
Podcasts, and tune in tomorrow for another look behind the headlines.
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