February 22, 2025 • 39 mins
Now more than ever, people are putting a heap of energy into tracking the length and quality of their sleep each night.
What percentage quality? How many hours? How long spent in each phase of sleep?
It can be interesting to read the data, but is it really beneficial or does it create too much pressure on sleeping patterns?
LISTEN ABOVE
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks, b.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
The Drown.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Snags and welcome back to the Weekend Collective. I'm Tim Beverage,
(00:41):
but a Duran durand to easy into the Air hung
we like the wolf probably has nothing to do with
this topic, but of course, but Duran Guran in terms
of my own interested quite a bond theme view to
a kill. By the way, I think it was the
top rating bond theme when it came around. What the
best seller they've ever had anyway, not for Duran Duran
but the bond things. But there we go. Let's get
back to our knitting, shall we And the the number
is eight hundred and eight ten eighty. Will want your
(01:02):
cause text nine to nine two. By the way, if
you miss of any of the previous hours, you can
go and listen to the online and check out our podcast.
Just look for the Weekend Collective, go to News Talks.
He'd be dot cod at in z or to iHeartRadio.
And actually, before we get into it, just in case
you're listening, there is a competition going on at the
(01:23):
universities right now where apparently if you call up a
radio station and get on air and give a shout
out to your to your mates at a particular hall.
Then apparently you get some you get a bunch of points.
So if you hear me hang up on someone prematurely,
then it's probably because that's the game they're playing. But
then again, if you are playing the game, if you
(01:43):
call up and you have a sensible call on the topic,
that's been we've clearly been listening. Oh, let you give
a shout out to your mates. So there you go,
oh eight eighty. But of course we are joined by
Dr Alex Bartle from the Sleep weldlin It because that's
the topic today, or Alex, we're about getting a good
night sleep. How are you doing well?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Thanks t Y.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Do you have a good night sleep?
Speaker 4 (02:05):
I usually have a pretty good night sleep, not always,
but if I don't, I know.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
What to do do you? Okay? Well, we're going to
get into that. But the thing that one of the
things that we wanted to talk about this afternoon is
because people put a heap of energy into tracking the
length and quality of their sleep. In fact, sometimes they
put it quite a bit of money into it because
they want to buy this particular smart watch which you'll
track this sleep. I mean, my phone will track my sleep,
(02:28):
but of course I don't hold my phone while I'm sleeping,
so that's no good. And we want to ask, have
you got a sleep tracking app? What does it tell you?
Because you actually might be looking at the results and
going I actually don't know what this means. Apparently I'm
sleeping for three or four hours, then I wake up
for a bit, and then I go back to sleep.
Is that a good night's sleep? So give us a
(02:49):
call to you and do you find that if you've
got to sleep tracking app, that it suddenly changes your
consciousness and your awareness about your sleep to the extent
that you start not even a good night's sleep? And
there is something about there that isn't there, Alex. When
you start getting preoccupied about what your brain or your
mind is doing, that it's like setting your own traps,
(03:09):
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
It's all very well tracking it. And let's face it,
we're not going to be able to get rid of
these watches. I mean, they've been around now for a
good decade or more and they're getting better, but they
do create problems. Sometimes they're really interesting, and they do
highlight some inadequacies in our sleep at times, But then
this question of how to interpret them. So it's all
very well saying oh, I'm only getting you know, twenty
(03:32):
percent of deep non ram sleep, whatever that means to them.
That's not enough, you know, I should be all night,
should be deep sleep. I need more digits. Well, actually, no,
you don't need any more than twenty percent.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
That's what really, So twenty percent deep sleep.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Absolutely, that's the usual.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
What's in fact, from what you've seen of tracking sleep
tracking apps and devices, how deep can they go in
terms of your sleep? Because I would have thought what
are they they?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
What do they?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
How do they make their decision as to whether you're asleep?
Is it because you're stationary for a while and you're
pulse is about the same for a few minutes.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
It works on several things. Movement is one of them,
the old fashioned way, that's what the most historic ways
be doing. They do what's called heart rate variability. So
it's to do with the autonomic nervous system, which I
won't go into at this stage, but it will tell
you whether you're actually in very relaxed state or a
bit stressed. It then measures temperatures as well, and some
(04:31):
of the measure actually noise as well, snoring as well,
but then pretty good actually whether you're asleep or whether
you're awake. So sleep and wake is fairly good nine
or so. But whether you're in REM non REM sleep
Level two, level one non REM sleep or REM sleep,
they're not nearly as accurate.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Do you track your sleep? No, there you go people
the sleep? But have you tracked your sleep?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
To be honest? I have for a short time?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
And why was it just?
Speaker 4 (05:00):
I know we would we were trying model Well, yes,
I mean I've tried everything, for example, for sleep happening.
I've tried all the possible devices you can get for
sleep happened to see how they feel. But as far
as tracking is concerned, you we got involved with a
particular device, and so I thought I should try it out.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
You got involved with a particular device.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
What you were sort of throwing it out to use
in our clinic.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Okay, and you haven't mentioned what the device is, so
I'm guessing it didn't go that well.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
No, No, it went very well. They're extremely good. Dare
I say I've been in trouble before for mentioning?
Speaker 5 (05:36):
No?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I mean, yeah, the product we use, the ring, Okay,
what is the ring? What's the or ring? Okay, right,
I see so, And because there are different types of
have you tried a watch or a digital watch.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
I haven't tried that. I've read up about them. And
the problem I see with roches is that you wear
them on the wrist, so in the middle of the
night when you wake up, you're going to look at it,
and of course that will immediately tell you the time,
which we try and avoid people doing so looking at
the keep on looking at the clock during the night
is not helpful for sleep, whereas the ring you just
shut on your finger all night and you download it
(06:10):
in the morning, so you only know what's happened when
you read it in the morning.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Because that's the thing with the watch. With a smart watch,
if you are wearing it, is there a Does it
create a temptation? I guess which I think this is
a rhetorical question, because I think it does create a
temptation that you would be like, oh, I've been how
long I've only been tossing a turning or then before
you know, you've tapped the screen on your watch and
you've had a lock for oh, shows I've been awake
for I've been awake for an hour. What hell? And
(06:35):
then you're anxious and that's the night screw.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
It certainly creates anxiety, There's no question. We get a
lot of worried people, people who are monitoring it and
documenting it every day, every night, I should say. But remember,
these smart watches do a lot of other things too,
So it may be very good at measuring steps or
amount of killer jewels you've used during the day, but
as far as sleep is concerned, they're good for sleep
(06:59):
and wake, but they're not so good for what level
of sleep you're in. Yeah, I mean, and then what
does that mean?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
I mean, that's the question.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
I mean, you're just surprised when we talked about twenty
percent of deep no room sleep, most of the time
we're in light sleep.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
And that's fantastic.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
You know, like level two, non REM sleep is where
we spend most of the night, and that's some really
important things to go on in that REM sleep is
very light sleep. Our brain is as active in REM
sleep as it is in quite wakefulness. But we're doing
some really important things at that time quite wakefulness.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Now what is that? Because I can make it up
in my mind, what I think that is? My understanding
quite wakefulness would be me, I've woken up, I haven't
got back to sleep yet, and I think, now, hang
on minute, I'm just gonna lie here and think about
some happy thoughts. And that's for me, the quite wakefulness
that sleep is that what quite wakefulness.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Is meditation alph orithm, and your brain's a nice alpha
quiet meditation type of thing, or just quite not worrying
about anything.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
How much value does it have that you might not
be able to get to sleep, because I think the
reason I asked this question is because I think if
you are awake and you're conscious, I think sometimes people think, oh, well,
I'm not sleeping, this is no good, and then their
anxiety level builds because they are not they're not unconscious,
(08:21):
Whereas I've also heard that actually, don't worry about it,
just lie there, because even lying there and having peaceful
thoughts does have some sleep value to it, doesn't.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
It has some cognitive value, some brain function value. But
when they've done studies of people who've been quietly awake
all night doing lots of blood tests over night, they
have a candular in them and take that time all
through the night, and then they allow those people to
sleep for rate hours. The brain the studies on the
blood are quite different. So there are quite specific things
(08:55):
that happen when you're asleep that don't happen if you're awake,
Although it is there is value to just lie in
there quietly. Yeah, but ah, how often do you do that?
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Well? Unfortunately a little too often sometimes. But so have
on what's what effect does sleep have on? What? What
signals does blanket.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
Things like corterior levels and hormonal levels. Generally you know
things like immunity factors TNFL for sales into looking factor
so the heart of blood. Things change basically.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So why what are the pro pros and cons off
tracking sleep? And the simple question is who should When
should you actually track your sleep? When's it? When's it worthwhile?
Speaker 4 (09:37):
I think it's interesting and people will always be interested
in what's happening in their bodies. But to rely on
it every night to see what's happening? Just how do
you feel in the morning. If you're waking up exhausted
in the morning, then you're probably not sleeping very well
for one reason or another. If you're awake. Half that,
if you're awake and you get that perception that you're awake.
Then that's not good either, even if there's a huge
(10:00):
thing called sleep state misperception. In other words, we think
we've been awake all night, whereas in fact we've been drifting. Yeah,
sleep that's very common.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Well, that's that is the one I think that you
can confuse people because often, ever since I've had you
on the show, I've had someone say to my eye,
which I was just awake all night, and I might
say to them, you might not have been because your
perception of what your sleep is. That's but I guess
if you're feeling tired, then obviously some probably were awake
at some stage.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
I mean there was a night I went to I
had what I consider I felt like I had a
fairly disturbed sleep, but I woke up I felt quite
well rested. Does that mean that when I wasn't sort
of tossing and turning, I was actually having some really
fantastic yep.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Sounds like the quality of sleep is really good, albeit
not very much of it, but the quality was good.
Where some people, you know, sleep for good eight or nine,
even up to ten hours, but feel rubbish in the morning, Well,
it's usually because they're quality of sleep probably something like
sleep ap near is occurring.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Okay, we love your call, so weight one hundred and
eighty ten and eighty in text on nine two nine two. Firstly,
I do you track your sleep? And have you found
that it's been quite useful or helpful? I mean now,
Alex said, it's like all human beings, we're curious about things.
It's like why people want to know how many steps
they've done during their day. I tend to think you know,
if you want to if you're worried about exercise, just
(11:18):
go out for a run until you feel like you've exercised.
That's probably the answer for me. Same with sleep. Go
to bed and if you feel you've had a good
night sleep, don't worry about tracking it. But are you
one of those people who you love the fact you've
got the smart watch or you've got some other device
that tracks you sleep? Do you track it? But if
you've got other questions on sleep, getting good night's sleep
from doctor Alex Bartle, director of the Sleepweld Clinic, and
(11:40):
we'd love to hear from you. Oh wait one hundred
eighty ten eighty text nine two nine two. It's eighteen
past four. News Talks hed B. Yes, News talks here B.
We're talking sleep with Alex Bartle from Sleepwell Clinic and
let's let's get into it. Steve, Hello, good, Hi, all right,
I have a question and my doctors can't answer.
Speaker 6 (12:02):
The hospital no one I have. But I went to
get a blood test and it came back that I
was fitting healthy. One week later, I go back and
get the same thing done and it came back that
they said, sorry, it's too late. You have hyperthoridism and
Graves disease. And it kind of spun me out because
they didn't explain anything to me about it. But I
(12:23):
noticed that my sleep I have issues sleeping. I might
only get one to two hours sleep at night. And
I know things like eating before you go to bed
is bad because that causes your heart to stretch out
a little bit because you're trying to digest food while
you're asleep. So because I've got heart disease, I'm thinking
(12:45):
I get a bit of sleep when I eat before
I go to sleep, which is bad, but I do
get a bit of sleep. And the medications they just
stopped working after like teen years of being on it.
So I'm trying to find I'm trying to find other
ways that I can relax myself or get into a
stage a time for me to be able to go
(13:07):
to sleep at night.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Okay, Steve, thanks for that. Let's bring Alex on it
actually eating before going to bed, or let's do all that.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Well, a snack is usually fine. What we don't want
him is to go to bed with a tummy fall,
because basically our gut doesn't work well at night, and
hence we got this thing called breakfast. We're breaking the fast,
so expect to go at least ten to twelve hours
without anything in their tummy. But some people, like yourself, Steve,
may betefit for a little bit of a snack before
(13:34):
you gett a bit, but just don't make you too
much at all.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Keep it light. What about the other things that Steve
talked about? Thyroid?
Speaker 4 (13:41):
Thyroid problems are likely to interrupt sleep to some degree,
but that's usually monitored by the doctor who will be
managing that. And either you've got too much thyroid which
might interrupt your sleep, or not enough, which makes you
very sleepy.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
What are you eating before you go to bed, Steve?
Speaker 6 (13:58):
Because I got Guy's disease, unlimited to what I can eat.
I can't have food just magnesium, arny of it. And
I used to a lot of sushi in that and
I think it's the seaweed I'm not allowed. So I
don't know. I'll just on these two of us that
live in the house. And I used to be a
sheath and my problem is I cook way too much.
(14:18):
But I think all leftovers the next day. So it's
things I'll make with criss of course, okay, and I'll
have some cold chicken in there. But I love my dressing,
so so dressing and all in.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
The main, just keep it late, not not too much,
and they shouldn't have any problem as far as your
sleep is concerned. But if you're not sleeping any more
than a couple of hours at night, I think we
need to actually catch up.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Actually, what is the the yep? So yeah, Steve, if
you want to go, you can visit the sleep Well
Clinic dot consin you and check that out. But what
is what sort of things are better to eat? For instance,
the let's go with the soothing glass of milk or
at bedtime? And is that kind of thing to it?
Speaker 4 (15:01):
I mean, ideally, the thinking was that it has tripped
to pen in it, and van is a precursor to serotonin,
that's precursor to melatonin. That was the sort of original thing.
It doesn't probably make much difference. It's a fatty drink,
so that means it will delay gastric emptying, which is
fine in some respects. You won't get the sugar hit
(15:21):
from it. So because it delays.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Is that good or bad?
Speaker 4 (15:26):
That's okay, And when you're trying to sleep, you don't
want sugar hit just before. But on the other hand,
it does sit in the body for a long time,
but liquid, so it'll go through relies so easily.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
What about peanuts, I've got a text about that saying,
what about peanuts, I've heard they give you nightmares? That
is that nonsense?
Speaker 4 (15:42):
I haven't heard that one, to be honest. I mean
cheese is the classic one.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
I'd drains on cheese.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
And that was supposed to be the tyro scene in
the cheese. But the study that was done by a
cheese company said that it didn't make any difference.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
So done by the cheese company, I reckon they should
have done the opposite. They should have said, have amazingly
vivid nightmare is when you eat our cheese and make
it a challenge, and that will become one of those
things with young I'm going to a huge chunk of
cheese before bed. Anyway, Look, let's take some more calls
on this June.
Speaker 7 (16:11):
Hello, Hello, when you talk a little louder because I'm
very deaf. But I'm a ninety four year old and
I'm not sleeping very well, and I've my mind just
goes on and on and on. How do I shut
it down so I can get some decent sleep?
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Well planning before you go to bed. Just spend a
bit of time writing some stuff down, so just brain.
Speaker 7 (16:38):
I can see I've got no side.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Okay, have you got a dog or a cat companion?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
No?
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Right, So find something you can actually talk to, so
and have a chat. You're buy yourself?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (16:54):
I need it? Just goes on and on and I
go back into time.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Later.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Don't go to bed too soon. Spend a bit of time.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Then the thing, Yes, I have to go What time
do you go to bed? Jane?
Speaker 7 (17:10):
About? Well, I have to get well. I tell you
why I'm reading. I'm in a rest home and I've
got to go to bed. About I've got to get
ready for bed. By seven o'clock and be in bed.
And I don't find it easy to get to sleep
when I've been distracted like that all the time.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Have they got you on a routine that doesn't suit you,
So they encourage you to go to bed early, and
they probably wake you.
Speaker 7 (17:37):
Up at about what They wake me up at eleven o'clock.
They wake me up again at about another couple of hours,
about two or two or three o'clock. Then they wake
me up again at five o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Is that for medication?
Speaker 6 (17:52):
Is it?
Speaker 7 (17:53):
No, it's just just the routine so that they check
to see if you're right. That's something they've got to
do evidently. But it just so disturbs my sleep pattern
that I haven't push.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
That sounds that's a bit of a catch twenty two.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
Yeah, well it's a catch twenty two. But I can't
think of good thought, so I seem to get into
bed habits now and I think, but well, I know
you can't help.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Hang on, just stay on the line. I might have
a chat.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
I might say that in many instances routines have changed.
For one of the major change that would be made
is in intensive key and it's where you're being working
every sort of half hour to take your blood pressure,
and they're reducing that now as near natally units are
much less invasive now, and maybe places in rest homes
like you're in should actually be waking you less often
(18:45):
or intruding in your nighttime less often, because waking you
up is not helpful for your health.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
And of course we don't know what. I mean, it's
difficult because we have a limited amount of information. I mean,
there might be a clinical reason why for something, but
what could June talk to who talk to them about saying?
And she challenged them on that. I don't want to
advocate that she should tell them what she wants done, because.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
Well, she could do that. The realities, it probably won't
change their routine because they've got a plan and if
they they're worried about if they don't carry the plan
and something goes wrong, then they would be liable.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
So there's sort of a little bit of.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I would have thought that if you were still a
compassmentous elderly person, you know what you want you to say,
I don't want your waking me, And then I would
have thought that they would have to do that unless
a doctor said, well, there's a reason we're doing it.
And then you know what I mean, as opposed to
you're just waking me to check on me.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
I think helping.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
No, no, it's not helping at all. No, no, So
the you're absolutely right challenge it. Check with the authorities
in your wrist home.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
By the way, just a quick one sees is are
they a good idea?
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Yes, it's quite a common thing, you know. And then
we get that circadian dip, that dip in our energy
levels often in the afternoon, and so having a bit
of a nap then if you need to, if you
need to regularly, it often implies that you'll sleep itself
isn't good, So you're not getting the restoration you need
to be in the nighttime. However, if you're particularly tired,
(20:11):
then having a nap earlier in the afternoon, and the
word is if you complete your short nap, keep it
less than twenty minutes of actual sleep before three o'clock,
then it doesn't seem to impact greatly on your nighttime.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Okay, there, Actually I saw there's something recently. I mean
there's always stories in the media about sleeping, but there
was I think there's been some study or recommendation done
about people say I'm bit tired and three o'clock there
or two o'clock they have a cup of coffee, And
there was some advocacy going on from I don't know where.
I can't remember the context for it would actually if
(20:46):
work let you have a quick nap for fifteen or
twenty minutes, you would Actually it's more effective and you're
more productive than having a cup of coffee. And I
would vouch for that because of the hours I do,
and there's two days a week where I know that
maybe at two o'clock or something I'm going to be
a bit tight, and I grabbed that twenty minutes and
I'm on fire after that. It's the power of a nap.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Is very is extraordinary. You're absolutely right. I mean, if
you can give yourself maybe a twenty twenty five minute
sleep opportunity of which you might sleep only fifteen to
twenty minutes, that's really restorative. And so if you're tired
and with shift workers as you work of course to
tim then it does make you a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Yeah, it's fascinating the power of a nap. And I'm
still a work in progress just because I have weird hours,
but it's I think you know people who resist it.
If you're I mean, if you haven't nap obvious set
four pm, you're probably going to stuff yourself for later on.
But what on a general conventional clock, what's the latest
time you reckon you can take a nap.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Probably well between three and four. I wouldn't really have
a nap then. I mean, for example, mums who are
going to pick up children, well, have your nap before
you go and pick them up.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I would imagine there are a lot of mums who've
got their alarm set for say two forty. You lie
out a quarter past two and just set their alarms
so you've got time to get to school.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
That means they're safe.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Good on you, right, eight hundred and eighty ten eighty
is the number. Let's continue. Anna, you're a nurse in
aged care.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Together, Well, yeah, I'm a nurse. I've just finished work.
I have I'll pull over. I have worked in age care.
I work in mental health now I work in acute
mental health. Now that lady who called, there's a couple
of things I thought of. Firstly, she seems to be
of sound mind, so she actually has the right to
(22:35):
tell them that she doesn't want to be woken up,
and she probably has an enduring power of attorney who
will make medical decisions on her behalf if she becomes incapacitated,
So that would most likely be a close about it.
If it's usually a child. So if she doesn't feel
she can say it, the power of attorney needs to
go and say to the management. Now she has the right.
(22:58):
There's the health and disability to mission, the twelve rights. Yeah,
those posters are in every medical facility in the country,
and she has to right. There's twelve rights. I can't
name them in my kid. That a right to an
appropriate standard of care.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
She doesn't she sorry, sorry to interrupt. Sorry, a bit
of a timing on the line there, But is it
Is it routine in age care facilities that that that
a care will do the rounds and and sort of just.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Check it's terrible, there's some terrible things, and that there
will be some there will be some legitimate reasons to
wake her up. If she cannot turn or move her body,
she will be at risk of what's called a pressure
area injury, and she would be turned at night. That
would be a legitimate reason I've had people who really
(23:51):
needed to be turned every two hours, but they were
very very very frail and weak and they couldn't move.
But some people would turn them only once in the
night if they couldn't move, or if they had were
in continent and we had to change them. But if
she's not in any of those categories, she absolutely has
(24:11):
the right to not be disturbed, but she wouldn't need
to speak to the manager of that place and also
her power of attorney.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, no, we have that. That's good advice. Thank you,
Thank you for that. And actually there would be from
what I understand, there are sometimes if you are in
age care facilities and you require medication and a particular
on a particular timetable, that would be another reason for it.
But of course it didn't sound like that from from
an from June. Hey, we're going to take We're going
to take a quick moment. We'd love to hear from you.
(24:43):
Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. The original conversation was
around sleep tracking, whether you did it. But of course
we are with Alex Bartle, who's director of the Sleep
Well Clinic, and you can give us a call if
you've got any questions about getting a good night's sleep,
or if there's just one of those questions you've got
it's like somebody as somebody said, is it okay to
grab a siesta? Or are their foods I should avoid eating?
Or simple bits of advice you're seeking which you think, well,
(25:04):
how you get a bed night sleep? Then we'd love
to hear from you. You know the number eight hundred
eighty ten eighty. You can text nine two nine two.
It's twenty four to five. As inside Weekends, Welcome back
(25:30):
to the Weekend Collective. This is the health Hub. I'm
tin beverage. My guest is doctor Alex Bartell, director of
the Sleepworld Clinic, and we're talking about well do you
track your sleep? For one, often, definitely enough, some people
might say I don't need a sleep tracker because he
or she is sleeping next to me. Because that the
first person will tell you that you've had a bad
night's sleep might be them because they're like you, we're
tossing and turning all night. But do you track the
(25:52):
quality of your sleep? Is the question we've started with,
but are also taking your calls around getting a good
night sleep. I've got to call a text here from
Ethel who says, my husband goes to sleep at around
two am and wakes at seven eight every day and
then has an hour long nap at eleven am. Can
you make up for a nighttime sleep with naps or
does it need to be consistent sleep?
Speaker 4 (26:15):
No, you can make up time in the afternoon. It's
never quite satisfactory as having in overnight sleep. But he's
having five hours overnight and an extra hour during the day,
which in the twenty four hours is six hours, which
in itself is borderline.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yeah, that's one of them, but that was one of
the old don't think you can say old wives tales
these days. That's probably sexist and agis. But anyway, I've
heard one of those sort of urban myths. There we go.
That's the word for an old wives tale, urban myth
that you can't catch up on a night's sleep. But
I was thinking that has to be nonsense, because if
you have a bad night sleep at some stage, you're
going to be restored by having better sleep later on.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
Absolutely to a certain degree. What the worthy myth perhaps
used to occur is that we'd say, if you'd had
a week of terrible sleep, night duty for a week
or ten days or something, and you were absolutely exhausted
at the end of that time. We used to teach
that it would take two full nights of sleep to restore.
We know that's not true anymore. It takes longer than that,
takes possibly up to a week of normal sleep.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
But I guess if you have a five hour sleep
and then okay. For instance, when I did the Breakfast show,
I would often have five or six hours, not always
the greatest sleep. I'd go home and have another two
hours when I'd finished, and get up and carry on
with them day fantastic is that that's not something I
have to catch up on later on. That's just I'm
sleeping then and I'm working that I'm having some more.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's it's okay. It's never quite as good
as continuous. But we all wake at night anyway, so
you know, and sleep used to be, as we now know,
often in two in many cases, in two phases, although
some primitive societies these days still seem to sleep through
in six.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
That's the other thing I have on too, is because
often people will I've had this on my overnight show.
Whe people say I sleep, I sleep for a few
hours then I wake up for an hour or two,
and then I go back to sleep for another few hour,
and I'm like, well, you're actually just sleeping.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
As we've evolved to absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
The people would get up and do chores or have
some quality time with their partner, a bit of oxytocin,
and away we go to sleep again. That's oxytocin, isn't it.
That's generated by amorous times. Indeed, amorous times. I think
that's safe. Four in the afternoon, isn't it right, Let's
carry on, Crystal.
Speaker 8 (28:28):
Hello, Hello, thanks for taking the call. My my thing is,
I don't think it's the problem, but it's just something
that is for me. So when I go to sleep,
I go into with instantly a deep, deep, deep, deep sleep,
absolutely so deep that the house could burn around, burn
around me, And I wouldn't even know how it's deep.
Speaker 6 (28:46):
Sleep, because I just know.
Speaker 8 (28:48):
I know because people tell me that they've come into
the house, or they've come to pick me up and
I'm just not awake, or or things have happened that
I've not been aware of it, and I've never heard
a thing. My ex partners have told me. You know,
when you're laying in bed, and you're talking about what
you've got up to that day to your partner as
you go to sleep. They said, within second set, and
I've gone to sleep and I can actually get up,
go to the loop dream, get up and go to
(29:09):
the move, go back to bed, and pick up on
the dream where I left off, like a book.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
And I.
Speaker 8 (29:16):
Think, wondering why that happens.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
That's interesting that picking up on a dream again, because
is that because you have enjoyed the dreaming you think
and you get back in and you just let your thoughts
continue with what you remember or are you telling yourself
you want to continue the dream? You just get back idea.
Speaker 8 (29:32):
You know, It's like when I go when I get up,
because I'm so deep sleep. When I do wake, when
I go to the loo, I'm always like a zombie
going to the toilet. And then I get that done
and I can't go back into the bed into a zombie,
and it's almost like it's almost like I've woken up
to go to the loo in auto pilots and when
I got back, yeah, and then I bang of. Now
I probably get about five hours sleeping nights, and that's
(29:54):
probably And when I do wake, when I do wake up.
I find it that it takes me a long time
to get going.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Oh, maybe you haven't had enough sleep. Let's throw it
over to Alex. There hound crystal deep sleep.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
The very deep sleep occurs at the beginning of the night.
So yes, going to deep sleep. And if you're fairly
rather to sleep deprived as it sounds, if you are
slightly sleep deprived, you're going to go into deep non
rem sleep quite quickly. It usually about twenty minutes, but
it could be a bit quicker than it. With you
when you need to go to the toilet, that's usually
going to be a bit later on. You're not going
(30:26):
to go to the toilet within half an hour an
hour of your falling asleep. And we do have little
bits of rem sleep, which is actually light sleep. So
when you're calling your sleep, you usually had light sleep.
So if you get up and you think I've been dreaming,
you've been in light sleep, not deep sleep. So we
do dream in deep non rim sleep, but you only
know about that if you are specifically woken out of
(30:48):
deep non riom sleep. When you're in this deepest sleep,
and then some people do recall that they've had they're
having a bit of a dream, but you won't remember
that because you're in deep sleep, and that lasts for
about seventy minutes or so before you come into a
light of sleep, and then you go back into deep
sleep again towards the end of the night, which is
more likely when you can be get up to go
to the toilet. You're in much lighter sleep. And we
spend at least eighty percent of our time in sleep
(31:12):
in light sleep.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
So when you remember your dreams that it's when you're
hearing light sleep. Yes, yes, because sometimes, I mean, I
don't know if Crystal might be like this as well,
but Mike can have It's not often, but I'll often
have a really intense dream, and if it's something where
it's just something and I'm doing something inspiring or whatever,
I'm actually enjoying it rather than a nightmare. I feel
like I'm sleeping fantastically. I wake up on a ghost
(31:34):
that was an amazing.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
Because dream sleep is incredibly important for our brain.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Function, I should be happy when I've had a dream.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
So I really hate the name call them deep sleep
and light sleep because it immediately means that I need
more deep non rem sleep or deep sleep it's much
better for me.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
No, it's not.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
They're completely different things. It's a very active time sleep
and light sleep. This level two non rem sleep, we
spent about fifty percent of the time in this is
doing all these really important things k complexes, spindles in
our brain as far as memories consolidation is concerned, as
far as emotionality is concerned, and ramsleep is just an
extra out bonus to that. So dreaming is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Got one last question before we go, there.
Speaker 8 (32:15):
Crystal or that different you're here the heads on? Throw
on that booth? How come dogs sleep so much? There
you go?
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Okay, well we'll throw that to Alex. Thanks Cranks Crustal,
I'm not sure that's Alex.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
No, no, not my domain. I know about dogs with narcolepsy.
That's quite common in some alsatians and dogs. You see
them twitching on the hearth rug. They're twitching pretending they're sleeping,
but they won't be able to get up and moved
because they're dreaming. They're twitching in in rem sleep.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Hey, thanks for call, Crystal. Okay, here's here's got some
text to get onto as well. By the way, if
you want to give us a call, we're time to squeeze,
and maybe a call or two, so I jump on
the blow. I wait on undred eighty ten eighty one
here says this is from Nick. I know sleep trackers
can't diagnose sleep app now, but can you see patterns
in sleep tracking data that'sest a proper sleep apnar test
(33:06):
would be worthwhile.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Yeah, that's a good question. And some sleep trackers, in fact,
I think more of them these days, are measuring oxygen levels,
and if you find that the oxygen levels are dropping
repeatedly through the night, you've probably got sleep ap near.
So I think that's how they would determine whether you've
got sleep apenar or not.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Also if you wake up felling knacked, that as well,
of course, Yeah, yeah, okay. Is another one. What's your
view on sleeping too much from ten pm to eight am?
After I wake at six am but decide to snooze
until eight compared to if I get up at sex?
In other words, ten or six naps till eight? Should
they just get up at sex? What's too much? What's
too long?
Speaker 4 (33:42):
Well, if you can go back to sleep and sleep
for another couple of hours and some rarely I might
say people need nine or ten hours sleep. Usually, if
you need more sleep like nine or ten hours sleep,
there's something wrong with the quality of sleep, either restless
legs with periodicly movements or with his twitching legs, or
you've got sleep apenar, so there's usually something wrong with that.
(34:04):
But and of course if you're catching up, as we've
mentioned before, if you've had some really bad nights, then
getting an extra bit of sleep on a you know, Saturday,
Sunday morning is fine.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yeah, okay, Well, I read a text out from ethel
before I remember about who I'm trying to remember and
the context of I think it was my husband goes
around sleep at two, wakes up at seven am, and
has an how long nap later on the late morning? Yes,
but here this is just following on from it gets
home at around twelve thirty AMCT. This guy works hard
and eats dinner. He used to have dinner at work,
(34:37):
but still hunger when he gets home. Could that be
impacting a sleep too? Can he eat that close to
sleeping or should he train his body not need food
after he gets home? So at the moment, it looks
like he's eating at twelve thirty he's going to sleep
at two and he's up at seven. Right, it's all
over the place. He's a train wreck.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Not ideal. I mean, I'd certainly a snake at that
time would be fine, but you need probably at least
two to three hours of digestion if you having your
evening meal that time.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
He'd be better eating at work, wouldn't he.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
He'd be a bitter even if he had a snake
at work. And then a snake with your term rather
than one big meal would probably be a better word.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
So get a decent get it, get satisfry appetite earlier.
And if you've just got the habit of sad for
something to eat, maybe have.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
A snake of some sort. We piece of bread and
a bit of jam er skitch and something like that, so.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Or cheese if you fancy a nightmare. Just kidding, just kidding.
We will be back in just a moment with Samantha.
Will be next to the news talks.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
He be.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
It's ten and a half minutes to five, it's news talks,
he'd be. Let's take another call on sleep with Alex
Bartle's at the sleep Doctor from sleep Well Clinic.
Speaker 8 (35:40):
Samantha, Hello, Yes, hidea.
Speaker 5 (35:44):
I sleep, okay, but this scene thing happens approxy, maybe
be three months. I'll be deep asleep and I can
see a very vivid scene, and I can step into
that scene and I can see every single detail magnified.
I can see the threadbare carpet, the old man sitting
by the fire, the tea and the cups. And I'm
walking around in the saying, thinking, wow, look at this.
(36:06):
And I'm not even asleep. And It'll last about one
or two minutes and I'm awake. My eyes are open,
and i can still see the scene in my head,
and I think, oh my gosh, it's just so bright.
And I wonder is that.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Normal, Like it's like a vision rather than a dream.
That's interesting?
Speaker 5 (36:25):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Any chance Samantha is actually asleep, Alex.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Well, it could be.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
Can you move at this stage? You can move your
arms and hands and everything.
Speaker 5 (36:37):
I don't think I'm physically moving my body, but I'm
in that scene.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
No, No, well, physically I'm looking at Because when you're
in rem sleep, in the rapid I'm in the dream sleep,
theoretically you can't move, so you're paralyzed for at least
two hours of the night when we're actually theoretically in
rem sleep. So either you're in that level one in
that sort of half sleep half awake stage that any
one or level non rem one, or you're dreaming, in
(37:04):
which case you wouldn't be able to actually move.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
So do you So after you've had this you said
us for two minutes? What happens after that vivid?
Speaker 5 (37:13):
I'm awake? Oh no, it's going now, and then I
just get up, go to the toilet. It's gone. I've
had it several times, different scenes. One's been a forest
and it's been walking down a track and the leaves
have been vibrantly green, you can see the veins in
the leaves. Sounds terrific, But I wondered is that normal
(37:34):
for someone to be able to actually step into the scene.
Speaker 4 (37:38):
Time of night is it? What time of night is it?
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Is it?
Speaker 5 (37:41):
I don't know, probably maybe.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Four o'clock a bit later in the night than So
it does sound like you either vivid dreaming or very
very light sleep.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
And yeah, it sounds really cherish it.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, it's an interesting Thanks for your course, Maantha. It's
funny that the old vivid dreams, isn't it. I've had
ones when I go back to times back, and I've
had ones when I was back in Phantom of the Opera,
but it's back in Fantom in the Opera, not back
when I'm back then. But suddenly, somehow I've been called
out of you know, called back to the show, and
I've and everything's wrong and all.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
The things that i's anxiety.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Is that anxiety?
Speaker 4 (38:21):
I mean there is this thing called lucid dreaming as well,
which is where it's very very light. So you saw
half all wake half a loose, so it sounds like
you it's a bit of lucid dreaming.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
So I'm sort of mate because it's usually something's not
right and it's something that's very familiar that I should
do well. But I'm like, well, hang on a minute,
I haven't haven't sung this stuff for six years.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
No, that's a that's a notemare.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Oh okay, Well it's not that terrifying because there's some
lovely aspects to it as well. But it's funny. But
when I wake up, I'm like, I thank god, it's
just do you have do you have?
Speaker 7 (38:53):
We?
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Do you have recurring scenarios that crop up, maybe even
if it's just a couple of years apart. But a
dream where you go on that one again?
Speaker 4 (39:00):
No, well, I know, not not consciously. I do dream
pretty well. I don't have nightmares, but no, I dream okay,
but I can't remember any particular theme that I have.
I mean, they basically gone.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
I've had them when literally I'm still going to got
about thirty seconds to go. When literally I've been the
dream and I go on this dream. I quite like
this one, and I'm conscious but not conscious. I've just
been the dream going. Oh the story. Yeah, it's so good. Anyway,
if people want to catch up with you with your
Sleepwell clinic, is that sleep Well? What's the what's the website?
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Sleep Clinic dot co, dot dot.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Excellent, Thanks Alex. We will be back shortly with smart
Money how Much Pepper from Harbor Asset Management will be
with us News Talk S ed B for more from
the weekend collective. Listen live to News Talks ed B
weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Collective podcast from News Talks, b.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
The Drown.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Snags and welcome back to the Weekend Collective. I'm Tim Beverage,
(00:41):
but a Duran durand to easy into the Air hung
we like the wolf probably has nothing to do with
this topic, but of course, but Duran Guran in terms
of my own interested quite a bond theme view to
a kill. By the way, I think it was the
top rating bond theme when it came around. What the
best seller they've ever had anyway, not for Duran Duran
but the bond things. But there we go. Let's get
back to our knitting, shall we And the the number
is eight hundred and eight ten eighty. Will want your
(01:02):
cause text nine to nine two. By the way, if
you miss of any of the previous hours, you can
go and listen to the online and check out our podcast.
Just look for the Weekend Collective, go to News Talks.
He'd be dot cod at in z or to iHeartRadio.
And actually, before we get into it, just in case
you're listening, there is a competition going on at the
(01:23):
universities right now where apparently if you call up a
radio station and get on air and give a shout
out to your to your mates at a particular hall.
Then apparently you get some you get a bunch of points.
So if you hear me hang up on someone prematurely,
then it's probably because that's the game they're playing. But
then again, if you are playing the game, if you
(01:43):
call up and you have a sensible call on the topic,
that's been we've clearly been listening. Oh, let you give
a shout out to your mates. So there you go,
oh eight eighty. But of course we are joined by
Dr Alex Bartle from the Sleep weldlin It because that's
the topic today, or Alex, we're about getting a good
night sleep. How are you doing well?
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Thanks t Y.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Do you have a good night sleep?
Speaker 4 (02:05):
I usually have a pretty good night sleep, not always,
but if I don't, I know.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
What to do do you? Okay? Well, we're going to
get into that. But the thing that one of the
things that we wanted to talk about this afternoon is
because people put a heap of energy into tracking the
length and quality of their sleep. In fact, sometimes they
put it quite a bit of money into it because
they want to buy this particular smart watch which you'll
track this sleep. I mean, my phone will track my sleep,
(02:28):
but of course I don't hold my phone while I'm sleeping,
so that's no good. And we want to ask, have
you got a sleep tracking app? What does it tell you?
Because you actually might be looking at the results and
going I actually don't know what this means. Apparently I'm
sleeping for three or four hours, then I wake up
for a bit, and then I go back to sleep.
Is that a good night's sleep? So give us a
(02:49):
call to you and do you find that if you've
got to sleep tracking app, that it suddenly changes your
consciousness and your awareness about your sleep to the extent
that you start not even a good night's sleep? And
there is something about there that isn't there, Alex. When
you start getting preoccupied about what your brain or your
mind is doing, that it's like setting your own traps,
(03:09):
isn't it.
Speaker 4 (03:10):
It's all very well tracking it. And let's face it,
we're not going to be able to get rid of
these watches. I mean, they've been around now for a
good decade or more and they're getting better, but they
do create problems. Sometimes they're really interesting, and they do
highlight some inadequacies in our sleep at times, But then
this question of how to interpret them. So it's all
very well saying oh, I'm only getting you know, twenty
(03:32):
percent of deep non ram sleep, whatever that means to them.
That's not enough, you know, I should be all night,
should be deep sleep. I need more digits. Well, actually, no,
you don't need any more than twenty percent.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
That's what really, So twenty percent deep sleep.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Absolutely, that's the usual.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
What's in fact, from what you've seen of tracking sleep
tracking apps and devices, how deep can they go in
terms of your sleep? Because I would have thought what
are they they?
Speaker 2 (03:59):
What do they?
Speaker 1 (03:59):
How do they make their decision as to whether you're asleep?
Is it because you're stationary for a while and you're
pulse is about the same for a few minutes.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
It works on several things. Movement is one of them,
the old fashioned way, that's what the most historic ways
be doing. They do what's called heart rate variability. So
it's to do with the autonomic nervous system, which I
won't go into at this stage, but it will tell
you whether you're actually in very relaxed state or a
bit stressed. It then measures temperatures as well, and some
(04:31):
of the measure actually noise as well, snoring as well,
but then pretty good actually whether you're asleep or whether
you're awake. So sleep and wake is fairly good nine
or so. But whether you're in REM non REM sleep
Level two, level one non REM sleep or REM sleep,
they're not nearly as accurate.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Do you track your sleep? No, there you go people
the sleep? But have you tracked your sleep?
Speaker 3 (04:56):
To be honest? I have for a short time?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
And why was it just?
Speaker 4 (05:00):
I know we would we were trying model Well, yes,
I mean I've tried everything, for example, for sleep happening.
I've tried all the possible devices you can get for
sleep happened to see how they feel. But as far
as tracking is concerned, you we got involved with a
particular device, and so I thought I should try it out.
Speaker 1 (05:18):
You got involved with a particular device.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
What you were sort of throwing it out to use
in our clinic.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Okay, and you haven't mentioned what the device is, so
I'm guessing it didn't go that well.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
No, No, it went very well. They're extremely good. Dare
I say I've been in trouble before for mentioning?
Speaker 5 (05:36):
No?
Speaker 1 (05:36):
I mean, yeah, the product we use, the ring, Okay,
what is the ring? What's the or ring? Okay, right,
I see so, And because there are different types of
have you tried a watch or a digital watch.
Speaker 4 (05:49):
I haven't tried that. I've read up about them. And
the problem I see with roches is that you wear
them on the wrist, so in the middle of the
night when you wake up, you're going to look at it,
and of course that will immediately tell you the time,
which we try and avoid people doing so looking at
the keep on looking at the clock during the night
is not helpful for sleep, whereas the ring you just
shut on your finger all night and you download it
(06:10):
in the morning, so you only know what's happened when
you read it in the morning.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Because that's the thing with the watch. With a smart watch,
if you are wearing it, is there a Does it
create a temptation? I guess which I think this is
a rhetorical question, because I think it does create a
temptation that you would be like, oh, I've been how
long I've only been tossing a turning or then before
you know, you've tapped the screen on your watch and
you've had a lock for oh, shows I've been awake
for I've been awake for an hour. What hell? And
(06:35):
then you're anxious and that's the night screw.
Speaker 4 (06:37):
It certainly creates anxiety, There's no question. We get a
lot of worried people, people who are monitoring it and
documenting it every day, every night, I should say. But remember,
these smart watches do a lot of other things too,
So it may be very good at measuring steps or
amount of killer jewels you've used during the day, but
as far as sleep is concerned, they're good for sleep
(06:59):
and wake, but they're not so good for what level
of sleep you're in. Yeah, I mean, and then what
does that mean?
Speaker 3 (07:06):
I mean, that's the question.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
I mean, you're just surprised when we talked about twenty
percent of deep no room sleep, most of the time
we're in light sleep.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
And that's fantastic.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
You know, like level two, non REM sleep is where
we spend most of the night, and that's some really
important things to go on in that REM sleep is
very light sleep. Our brain is as active in REM
sleep as it is in quite wakefulness. But we're doing
some really important things at that time quite wakefulness.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Now what is that? Because I can make it up
in my mind, what I think that is? My understanding
quite wakefulness would be me, I've woken up, I haven't
got back to sleep yet, and I think, now, hang
on minute, I'm just gonna lie here and think about
some happy thoughts. And that's for me, the quite wakefulness
that sleep is that what quite wakefulness.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Is meditation alph orithm, and your brain's a nice alpha
quiet meditation type of thing, or just quite not worrying
about anything.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
How much value does it have that you might not
be able to get to sleep, because I think the
reason I asked this question is because I think if
you are awake and you're conscious, I think sometimes people think, oh, well,
I'm not sleeping, this is no good, and then their
anxiety level builds because they are not they're not unconscious,
(08:21):
Whereas I've also heard that actually, don't worry about it,
just lie there, because even lying there and having peaceful
thoughts does have some sleep value to it, doesn't.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
It has some cognitive value, some brain function value. But
when they've done studies of people who've been quietly awake
all night doing lots of blood tests over night, they
have a candular in them and take that time all
through the night, and then they allow those people to
sleep for rate hours. The brain the studies on the
blood are quite different. So there are quite specific things
(08:55):
that happen when you're asleep that don't happen if you're awake,
Although it is there is value to just lie in
there quietly. Yeah, but ah, how often do you do that?
Speaker 1 (09:05):
Well? Unfortunately a little too often sometimes. But so have
on what's what effect does sleep have on? What? What
signals does blanket.
Speaker 4 (09:13):
Things like corterior levels and hormonal levels. Generally you know
things like immunity factors TNFL for sales into looking factor
so the heart of blood. Things change basically.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
So why what are the pro pros and cons off
tracking sleep? And the simple question is who should When
should you actually track your sleep? When's it? When's it worthwhile?
Speaker 4 (09:37):
I think it's interesting and people will always be interested
in what's happening in their bodies. But to rely on
it every night to see what's happening? Just how do
you feel in the morning. If you're waking up exhausted
in the morning, then you're probably not sleeping very well
for one reason or another. If you're awake. Half that,
if you're awake and you get that perception that you're awake.
Then that's not good either, even if there's a huge
(10:00):
thing called sleep state misperception. In other words, we think
we've been awake all night, whereas in fact we've been drifting. Yeah,
sleep that's very common.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Well, that's that is the one I think that you
can confuse people because often, ever since I've had you
on the show, I've had someone say to my eye,
which I was just awake all night, and I might
say to them, you might not have been because your
perception of what your sleep is. That's but I guess
if you're feeling tired, then obviously some probably were awake
at some stage.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
I mean there was a night I went to I
had what I consider I felt like I had a
fairly disturbed sleep, but I woke up I felt quite
well rested. Does that mean that when I wasn't sort
of tossing and turning, I was actually having some really
fantastic yep.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
Sounds like the quality of sleep is really good, albeit
not very much of it, but the quality was good.
Where some people, you know, sleep for good eight or nine,
even up to ten hours, but feel rubbish in the morning, Well,
it's usually because they're quality of sleep probably something like
sleep ap near is occurring.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
Okay, we love your call, so weight one hundred and
eighty ten and eighty in text on nine two nine two. Firstly,
I do you track your sleep? And have you found
that it's been quite useful or helpful? I mean now,
Alex said, it's like all human beings, we're curious about things.
It's like why people want to know how many steps
they've done during their day. I tend to think you know,
if you want to if you're worried about exercise, just
(11:18):
go out for a run until you feel like you've exercised.
That's probably the answer for me. Same with sleep. Go
to bed and if you feel you've had a good
night sleep, don't worry about tracking it. But are you
one of those people who you love the fact you've
got the smart watch or you've got some other device
that tracks you sleep? Do you track it? But if
you've got other questions on sleep, getting good night's sleep
from doctor Alex Bartle, director of the Sleepweld Clinic, and
(11:40):
we'd love to hear from you. Oh wait one hundred
eighty ten eighty text nine two nine two. It's eighteen
past four. News Talks hed B. Yes, News talks here B.
We're talking sleep with Alex Bartle from Sleepwell Clinic and
let's let's get into it. Steve, Hello, good, Hi, all right,
I have a question and my doctors can't answer.
Speaker 6 (12:02):
The hospital no one I have. But I went to
get a blood test and it came back that I
was fitting healthy. One week later, I go back and
get the same thing done and it came back that
they said, sorry, it's too late. You have hyperthoridism and
Graves disease. And it kind of spun me out because
they didn't explain anything to me about it. But I
(12:23):
noticed that my sleep I have issues sleeping. I might
only get one to two hours sleep at night. And
I know things like eating before you go to bed
is bad because that causes your heart to stretch out
a little bit because you're trying to digest food while
you're asleep. So because I've got heart disease, I'm thinking
(12:45):
I get a bit of sleep when I eat before
I go to sleep, which is bad, but I do
get a bit of sleep. And the medications they just
stopped working after like teen years of being on it.
So I'm trying to find I'm trying to find other
ways that I can relax myself or get into a
stage a time for me to be able to go
(13:07):
to sleep at night.
Speaker 1 (13:08):
Okay, Steve, thanks for that. Let's bring Alex on it
actually eating before going to bed, or let's do all that.
Speaker 4 (13:13):
Well, a snack is usually fine. What we don't want
him is to go to bed with a tummy fall,
because basically our gut doesn't work well at night, and
hence we got this thing called breakfast. We're breaking the fast,
so expect to go at least ten to twelve hours
without anything in their tummy. But some people, like yourself, Steve,
may betefit for a little bit of a snack before
(13:34):
you gett a bit, but just don't make you too
much at all.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
Keep it light. What about the other things that Steve
talked about? Thyroid?
Speaker 4 (13:41):
Thyroid problems are likely to interrupt sleep to some degree,
but that's usually monitored by the doctor who will be
managing that. And either you've got too much thyroid which
might interrupt your sleep, or not enough, which makes you
very sleepy.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
What are you eating before you go to bed, Steve?
Speaker 6 (13:58):
Because I got Guy's disease, unlimited to what I can eat.
I can't have food just magnesium, arny of it. And
I used to a lot of sushi in that and
I think it's the seaweed I'm not allowed. So I
don't know. I'll just on these two of us that
live in the house. And I used to be a
sheath and my problem is I cook way too much.
(14:18):
But I think all leftovers the next day. So it's
things I'll make with criss of course, okay, and I'll
have some cold chicken in there. But I love my dressing,
so so dressing and all in.
Speaker 4 (14:31):
The main, just keep it late, not not too much,
and they shouldn't have any problem as far as your
sleep is concerned. But if you're not sleeping any more
than a couple of hours at night, I think we
need to actually catch up.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Actually, what is the the yep? So yeah, Steve, if
you want to go, you can visit the sleep Well
Clinic dot consin you and check that out. But what
is what sort of things are better to eat? For instance,
the let's go with the soothing glass of milk or
at bedtime? And is that kind of thing to it?
Speaker 4 (15:01):
I mean, ideally, the thinking was that it has tripped
to pen in it, and van is a precursor to serotonin,
that's precursor to melatonin. That was the sort of original thing.
It doesn't probably make much difference. It's a fatty drink,
so that means it will delay gastric emptying, which is
fine in some respects. You won't get the sugar hit
(15:21):
from it. So because it delays.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
Is that good or bad?
Speaker 4 (15:26):
That's okay, And when you're trying to sleep, you don't
want sugar hit just before. But on the other hand,
it does sit in the body for a long time,
but liquid, so it'll go through relies so easily.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
What about peanuts, I've got a text about that saying,
what about peanuts, I've heard they give you nightmares? That
is that nonsense?
Speaker 4 (15:42):
I haven't heard that one, to be honest. I mean
cheese is the classic one.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
I'd drains on cheese.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
And that was supposed to be the tyro scene in
the cheese. But the study that was done by a
cheese company said that it didn't make any difference.
Speaker 1 (15:54):
So done by the cheese company, I reckon they should
have done the opposite. They should have said, have amazingly
vivid nightmare is when you eat our cheese and make
it a challenge, and that will become one of those
things with young I'm going to a huge chunk of
cheese before bed. Anyway, Look, let's take some more calls
on this June.
Speaker 7 (16:11):
Hello, Hello, when you talk a little louder because I'm
very deaf. But I'm a ninety four year old and
I'm not sleeping very well, and I've my mind just
goes on and on and on. How do I shut
it down so I can get some decent sleep?
Speaker 4 (16:31):
Well planning before you go to bed. Just spend a
bit of time writing some stuff down, so just brain.
Speaker 7 (16:38):
I can see I've got no side.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Okay, have you got a dog or a cat companion?
Speaker 2 (16:44):
No?
Speaker 4 (16:45):
Right, So find something you can actually talk to, so
and have a chat. You're buy yourself?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (16:54):
I need it? Just goes on and on and I
go back into time.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Later.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Don't go to bed too soon. Spend a bit of time.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Then the thing, Yes, I have to go What time
do you go to bed? Jane?
Speaker 7 (17:10):
About? Well, I have to get well. I tell you
why I'm reading. I'm in a rest home and I've
got to go to bed. About I've got to get
ready for bed. By seven o'clock and be in bed.
And I don't find it easy to get to sleep
when I've been distracted like that all the time.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Have they got you on a routine that doesn't suit you,
So they encourage you to go to bed early, and
they probably wake you.
Speaker 7 (17:37):
Up at about what They wake me up at eleven o'clock.
They wake me up again at about another couple of hours,
about two or two or three o'clock. Then they wake
me up again at five o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Is that for medication?
Speaker 6 (17:52):
Is it?
Speaker 7 (17:53):
No, it's just just the routine so that they check
to see if you're right. That's something they've got to
do evidently. But it just so disturbs my sleep pattern
that I haven't push.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
That sounds that's a bit of a catch twenty two.
Speaker 7 (18:09):
Yeah, well it's a catch twenty two. But I can't
think of good thought, so I seem to get into
bed habits now and I think, but well, I know
you can't help.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
Hang on, just stay on the line. I might have
a chat.
Speaker 4 (18:24):
I might say that in many instances routines have changed.
For one of the major change that would be made
is in intensive key and it's where you're being working
every sort of half hour to take your blood pressure,
and they're reducing that now as near natally units are
much less invasive now, and maybe places in rest homes
like you're in should actually be waking you less often
(18:45):
or intruding in your nighttime less often, because waking you
up is not helpful for your health.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
And of course we don't know what. I mean, it's
difficult because we have a limited amount of information. I mean,
there might be a clinical reason why for something, but
what could June talk to who talk to them about saying?
And she challenged them on that. I don't want to
advocate that she should tell them what she wants done, because.
Speaker 4 (19:10):
Well, she could do that. The realities, it probably won't
change their routine because they've got a plan and if
they they're worried about if they don't carry the plan
and something goes wrong, then they would be liable.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
So there's sort of a little bit of.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
I would have thought that if you were still a
compassmentous elderly person, you know what you want you to say,
I don't want your waking me, And then I would
have thought that they would have to do that unless
a doctor said, well, there's a reason we're doing it.
And then you know what I mean, as opposed to
you're just waking me to check on me.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
I think helping.
Speaker 4 (19:37):
No, no, it's not helping at all. No, no, So
the you're absolutely right challenge it. Check with the authorities
in your wrist home.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
By the way, just a quick one sees is are
they a good idea?
Speaker 4 (19:51):
Yes, it's quite a common thing, you know. And then
we get that circadian dip, that dip in our energy
levels often in the afternoon, and so having a bit
of a nap then if you need to, if you
need to regularly, it often implies that you'll sleep itself
isn't good, So you're not getting the restoration you need
to be in the nighttime. However, if you're particularly tired,
(20:11):
then having a nap earlier in the afternoon, and the
word is if you complete your short nap, keep it
less than twenty minutes of actual sleep before three o'clock,
then it doesn't seem to impact greatly on your nighttime.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Okay, there, Actually I saw there's something recently. I mean
there's always stories in the media about sleeping, but there
was I think there's been some study or recommendation done
about people say I'm bit tired and three o'clock there
or two o'clock they have a cup of coffee, And
there was some advocacy going on from I don't know where.
I can't remember the context for it would actually if
(20:46):
work let you have a quick nap for fifteen or
twenty minutes, you would Actually it's more effective and you're
more productive than having a cup of coffee. And I
would vouch for that because of the hours I do,
and there's two days a week where I know that
maybe at two o'clock or something I'm going to be
a bit tight, and I grabbed that twenty minutes and
I'm on fire after that. It's the power of a nap.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Is very is extraordinary. You're absolutely right. I mean, if
you can give yourself maybe a twenty twenty five minute
sleep opportunity of which you might sleep only fifteen to
twenty minutes, that's really restorative. And so if you're tired
and with shift workers as you work of course to
tim then it does make you a huge difference.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Yeah, it's fascinating the power of a nap. And I'm
still a work in progress just because I have weird hours,
but it's I think you know people who resist it.
If you're I mean, if you haven't nap obvious set
four pm, you're probably going to stuff yourself for later on.
But what on a general conventional clock, what's the latest
time you reckon you can take a nap.
Speaker 4 (21:45):
Probably well between three and four. I wouldn't really have
a nap then. I mean, for example, mums who are
going to pick up children, well, have your nap before
you go and pick them up.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
I would imagine there are a lot of mums who've
got their alarm set for say two forty. You lie
out a quarter past two and just set their alarms
so you've got time to get to school.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
That means they're safe.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Good on you, right, eight hundred and eighty ten eighty
is the number. Let's continue. Anna, you're a nurse in
aged care.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Together, Well, yeah, I'm a nurse. I've just finished work.
I have I'll pull over. I have worked in age care.
I work in mental health now I work in acute
mental health. Now that lady who called, there's a couple
of things I thought of. Firstly, she seems to be
of sound mind, so she actually has the right to
(22:35):
tell them that she doesn't want to be woken up,
and she probably has an enduring power of attorney who
will make medical decisions on her behalf if she becomes incapacitated,
So that would most likely be a close about it.
If it's usually a child. So if she doesn't feel
she can say it, the power of attorney needs to
go and say to the management. Now she has the right.
(22:58):
There's the health and disability to mission, the twelve rights. Yeah,
those posters are in every medical facility in the country,
and she has to right. There's twelve rights. I can't
name them in my kid. That a right to an
appropriate standard of care.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
She doesn't she sorry, sorry to interrupt. Sorry, a bit
of a timing on the line there, But is it
Is it routine in age care facilities that that that
a care will do the rounds and and sort of just.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Check it's terrible, there's some terrible things, and that there
will be some there will be some legitimate reasons to
wake her up. If she cannot turn or move her body,
she will be at risk of what's called a pressure
area injury, and she would be turned at night. That
would be a legitimate reason I've had people who really
(23:51):
needed to be turned every two hours, but they were
very very very frail and weak and they couldn't move.
But some people would turn them only once in the
night if they couldn't move, or if they had were
in continent and we had to change them. But if
she's not in any of those categories, she absolutely has
(24:11):
the right to not be disturbed, but she wouldn't need
to speak to the manager of that place and also
her power of attorney.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
Yeah, no, we have that. That's good advice. Thank you,
Thank you for that. And actually there would be from
what I understand, there are sometimes if you are in
age care facilities and you require medication and a particular
on a particular timetable, that would be another reason for it.
But of course it didn't sound like that from from
an from June. Hey, we're going to take We're going
to take a quick moment. We'd love to hear from you.
(24:43):
Eight hundred and eighty ten eighty. The original conversation was
around sleep tracking, whether you did it. But of course
we are with Alex Bartle, who's director of the Sleep
Well Clinic, and you can give us a call if
you've got any questions about getting a good night's sleep,
or if there's just one of those questions you've got
it's like somebody as somebody said, is it okay to
grab a siesta? Or are their foods I should avoid eating?
Or simple bits of advice you're seeking which you think, well,
(25:04):
how you get a bed night sleep? Then we'd love
to hear from you. You know the number eight hundred
eighty ten eighty. You can text nine two nine two.
It's twenty four to five. As inside Weekends, Welcome back
(25:30):
to the Weekend Collective. This is the health Hub. I'm
tin beverage. My guest is doctor Alex Bartell, director of
the Sleepworld Clinic, and we're talking about well do you
track your sleep? For one, often, definitely enough, some people
might say I don't need a sleep tracker because he
or she is sleeping next to me. Because that the
first person will tell you that you've had a bad
night's sleep might be them because they're like you, we're
tossing and turning all night. But do you track the
(25:52):
quality of your sleep? Is the question we've started with,
but are also taking your calls around getting a good
night sleep. I've got to call a text here from
Ethel who says, my husband goes to sleep at around
two am and wakes at seven eight every day and
then has an hour long nap at eleven am. Can
you make up for a nighttime sleep with naps or
does it need to be consistent sleep?
Speaker 4 (26:15):
No, you can make up time in the afternoon. It's
never quite satisfactory as having in overnight sleep. But he's
having five hours overnight and an extra hour during the day,
which in the twenty four hours is six hours, which
in itself is borderline.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
Yeah, that's one of them, but that was one of
the old don't think you can say old wives tales
these days. That's probably sexist and agis. But anyway, I've
heard one of those sort of urban myths. There we go.
That's the word for an old wives tale, urban myth
that you can't catch up on a night's sleep. But
I was thinking that has to be nonsense, because if
you have a bad night sleep at some stage, you're
going to be restored by having better sleep later on.
Speaker 4 (26:55):
Absolutely to a certain degree. What the worthy myth perhaps
used to occur is that we'd say, if you'd had
a week of terrible sleep, night duty for a week
or ten days or something, and you were absolutely exhausted
at the end of that time. We used to teach
that it would take two full nights of sleep to restore.
We know that's not true anymore. It takes longer than that,
takes possibly up to a week of normal sleep.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
But I guess if you have a five hour sleep
and then okay. For instance, when I did the Breakfast show,
I would often have five or six hours, not always
the greatest sleep. I'd go home and have another two
hours when I'd finished, and get up and carry on
with them day fantastic is that that's not something I
have to catch up on later on. That's just I'm
sleeping then and I'm working that I'm having some more.
Speaker 4 (27:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's it's okay. It's never quite as good
as continuous. But we all wake at night anyway, so
you know, and sleep used to be, as we now know,
often in two in many cases, in two phases, although
some primitive societies these days still seem to sleep through
in six.
Speaker 1 (27:55):
That's the other thing I have on too, is because
often people will I've had this on my overnight show.
Whe people say I sleep, I sleep for a few
hours then I wake up for an hour or two,
and then I go back to sleep for another few hour,
and I'm like, well, you're actually just sleeping.
Speaker 3 (28:07):
As we've evolved to absolutely yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
The people would get up and do chores or have
some quality time with their partner, a bit of oxytocin,
and away we go to sleep again. That's oxytocin, isn't it.
That's generated by amorous times. Indeed, amorous times. I think
that's safe. Four in the afternoon, isn't it right, Let's
carry on, Crystal.
Speaker 8 (28:28):
Hello, Hello, thanks for taking the call. My my thing is,
I don't think it's the problem, but it's just something
that is for me. So when I go to sleep,
I go into with instantly a deep, deep, deep, deep sleep,
absolutely so deep that the house could burn around, burn
around me, And I wouldn't even know how it's deep.
Speaker 6 (28:46):
Sleep, because I just know.
Speaker 8 (28:48):
I know because people tell me that they've come into
the house, or they've come to pick me up and
I'm just not awake, or or things have happened that
I've not been aware of it, and I've never heard
a thing. My ex partners have told me. You know,
when you're laying in bed, and you're talking about what
you've got up to that day to your partner as
you go to sleep. They said, within second set, and
I've gone to sleep and I can actually get up,
go to the loop dream, get up and go to
(29:09):
the move, go back to bed, and pick up on
the dream where I left off, like a book.
Speaker 3 (29:14):
And I.
Speaker 8 (29:16):
Think, wondering why that happens.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
That's interesting that picking up on a dream again, because
is that because you have enjoyed the dreaming you think
and you get back in and you just let your thoughts
continue with what you remember or are you telling yourself
you want to continue the dream? You just get back idea.
Speaker 8 (29:32):
You know, It's like when I go when I get up,
because I'm so deep sleep. When I do wake, when
I go to the loo, I'm always like a zombie
going to the toilet. And then I get that done
and I can't go back into the bed into a zombie,
and it's almost like it's almost like I've woken up
to go to the loo in auto pilots and when
I got back, yeah, and then I bang of. Now
I probably get about five hours sleeping nights, and that's
(29:54):
probably And when I do wake, when I do wake up.
I find it that it takes me a long time
to get going.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Oh, maybe you haven't had enough sleep. Let's throw it
over to Alex. There hound crystal deep sleep.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
The very deep sleep occurs at the beginning of the night.
So yes, going to deep sleep. And if you're fairly
rather to sleep deprived as it sounds, if you are
slightly sleep deprived, you're going to go into deep non
rem sleep quite quickly. It usually about twenty minutes, but
it could be a bit quicker than it. With you
when you need to go to the toilet, that's usually
going to be a bit later on. You're not going
(30:26):
to go to the toilet within half an hour an
hour of your falling asleep. And we do have little
bits of rem sleep, which is actually light sleep. So
when you're calling your sleep, you usually had light sleep.
So if you get up and you think I've been dreaming,
you've been in light sleep, not deep sleep. So we
do dream in deep non rim sleep, but you only
know about that if you are specifically woken out of
(30:48):
deep non riom sleep. When you're in this deepest sleep,
and then some people do recall that they've had they're
having a bit of a dream, but you won't remember
that because you're in deep sleep, and that lasts for
about seventy minutes or so before you come into a
light of sleep, and then you go back into deep
sleep again towards the end of the night, which is
more likely when you can be get up to go
to the toilet. You're in much lighter sleep. And we
spend at least eighty percent of our time in sleep
(31:12):
in light sleep.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
So when you remember your dreams that it's when you're
hearing light sleep. Yes, yes, because sometimes, I mean, I
don't know if Crystal might be like this as well,
but Mike can have It's not often, but I'll often
have a really intense dream, and if it's something where
it's just something and I'm doing something inspiring or whatever,
I'm actually enjoying it rather than a nightmare. I feel
like I'm sleeping fantastically. I wake up on a ghost
(31:34):
that was an amazing.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
Because dream sleep is incredibly important for our brain.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Function, I should be happy when I've had a dream.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
So I really hate the name call them deep sleep
and light sleep because it immediately means that I need
more deep non rem sleep or deep sleep it's much
better for me.
Speaker 3 (31:51):
No, it's not.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
They're completely different things. It's a very active time sleep
and light sleep. This level two non rem sleep, we
spent about fifty percent of the time in this is
doing all these really important things k complexes, spindles in
our brain as far as memories consolidation is concerned, as
far as emotionality is concerned, and ramsleep is just an
extra out bonus to that. So dreaming is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Got one last question before we go, there.
Speaker 8 (32:15):
Crystal or that different you're here the heads on? Throw
on that booth? How come dogs sleep so much? There
you go?
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Okay, well we'll throw that to Alex. Thanks Cranks Crustal,
I'm not sure that's Alex.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
No, no, not my domain. I know about dogs with narcolepsy.
That's quite common in some alsatians and dogs. You see
them twitching on the hearth rug. They're twitching pretending they're sleeping,
but they won't be able to get up and moved
because they're dreaming. They're twitching in in rem sleep.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Hey, thanks for call, Crystal. Okay, here's here's got some
text to get onto as well. By the way, if
you want to give us a call, we're time to squeeze,
and maybe a call or two, so I jump on
the blow. I wait on undred eighty ten eighty one
here says this is from Nick. I know sleep trackers
can't diagnose sleep app now, but can you see patterns
in sleep tracking data that'sest a proper sleep apnar test
(33:06):
would be worthwhile.
Speaker 4 (33:08):
Yeah, that's a good question. And some sleep trackers, in fact,
I think more of them these days, are measuring oxygen levels,
and if you find that the oxygen levels are dropping
repeatedly through the night, you've probably got sleep ap near.
So I think that's how they would determine whether you've
got sleep apenar or not.
Speaker 1 (33:23):
Also if you wake up felling knacked, that as well,
of course, Yeah, yeah, okay. Is another one. What's your
view on sleeping too much from ten pm to eight am?
After I wake at six am but decide to snooze
until eight compared to if I get up at sex?
In other words, ten or six naps till eight? Should
they just get up at sex? What's too much? What's
too long?
Speaker 4 (33:42):
Well, if you can go back to sleep and sleep
for another couple of hours and some rarely I might
say people need nine or ten hours sleep. Usually, if
you need more sleep like nine or ten hours sleep,
there's something wrong with the quality of sleep, either restless
legs with periodicly movements or with his twitching legs, or
you've got sleep apenar, so there's usually something wrong with that.
(34:04):
But and of course if you're catching up, as we've
mentioned before, if you've had some really bad nights, then
getting an extra bit of sleep on a you know, Saturday,
Sunday morning is fine.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Yeah, okay, Well, I read a text out from ethel
before I remember about who I'm trying to remember and
the context of I think it was my husband goes
around sleep at two, wakes up at seven am, and
has an how long nap later on the late morning? Yes,
but here this is just following on from it gets
home at around twelve thirty AMCT. This guy works hard
and eats dinner. He used to have dinner at work,
(34:37):
but still hunger when he gets home. Could that be
impacting a sleep too? Can he eat that close to
sleeping or should he train his body not need food
after he gets home? So at the moment, it looks
like he's eating at twelve thirty he's going to sleep
at two and he's up at seven. Right, it's all
over the place. He's a train wreck.
Speaker 4 (34:54):
Not ideal. I mean, I'd certainly a snake at that
time would be fine, but you need probably at least
two to three hours of digestion if you having your
evening meal that time.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
He'd be better eating at work, wouldn't he.
Speaker 4 (35:07):
He'd be a bitter even if he had a snake
at work. And then a snake with your term rather
than one big meal would probably be a better word.
Speaker 1 (35:13):
So get a decent get it, get satisfry appetite earlier.
And if you've just got the habit of sad for
something to eat, maybe have.
Speaker 4 (35:20):
A snake of some sort. We piece of bread and
a bit of jam er skitch and something like that, so.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Or cheese if you fancy a nightmare. Just kidding, just kidding.
We will be back in just a moment with Samantha.
Will be next to the news talks.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
He be.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
It's ten and a half minutes to five, it's news talks,
he'd be. Let's take another call on sleep with Alex
Bartle's at the sleep Doctor from sleep Well Clinic.
Speaker 8 (35:40):
Samantha, Hello, Yes, hidea.
Speaker 5 (35:44):
I sleep, okay, but this scene thing happens approxy, maybe
be three months. I'll be deep asleep and I can
see a very vivid scene, and I can step into
that scene and I can see every single detail magnified.
I can see the threadbare carpet, the old man sitting
by the fire, the tea and the cups. And I'm
walking around in the saying, thinking, wow, look at this.
(36:06):
And I'm not even asleep. And It'll last about one
or two minutes and I'm awake. My eyes are open,
and i can still see the scene in my head,
and I think, oh my gosh, it's just so bright.
And I wonder is that.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
Normal, Like it's like a vision rather than a dream.
That's interesting?
Speaker 5 (36:25):
Yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1 (36:27):
Any chance Samantha is actually asleep, Alex.
Speaker 3 (36:30):
Well, it could be.
Speaker 4 (36:31):
Can you move at this stage? You can move your
arms and hands and everything.
Speaker 5 (36:37):
I don't think I'm physically moving my body, but I'm
in that scene.
Speaker 4 (36:41):
No, No, well, physically I'm looking at Because when you're
in rem sleep, in the rapid I'm in the dream sleep,
theoretically you can't move, so you're paralyzed for at least
two hours of the night when we're actually theoretically in
rem sleep. So either you're in that level one in
that sort of half sleep half awake stage that any
one or level non rem one, or you're dreaming, in
(37:04):
which case you wouldn't be able to actually move.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
So do you So after you've had this you said
us for two minutes? What happens after that vivid?
Speaker 5 (37:13):
I'm awake? Oh no, it's going now, and then I
just get up, go to the toilet. It's gone. I've
had it several times, different scenes. One's been a forest
and it's been walking down a track and the leaves
have been vibrantly green, you can see the veins in
the leaves. Sounds terrific, But I wondered is that normal
(37:34):
for someone to be able to actually step into the scene.
Speaker 4 (37:38):
Time of night is it? What time of night is it?
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Is it?
Speaker 5 (37:41):
I don't know, probably maybe.
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Four o'clock a bit later in the night than So
it does sound like you either vivid dreaming or very
very light sleep.
Speaker 3 (37:52):
And yeah, it sounds really cherish it.
Speaker 1 (37:56):
Yeah, it's an interesting Thanks for your course, Maantha. It's
funny that the old vivid dreams, isn't it. I've had
ones when I go back to times back, and I've
had ones when I was back in Phantom of the Opera,
but it's back in Fantom in the Opera, not back
when I'm back then. But suddenly, somehow I've been called
out of you know, called back to the show, and
I've and everything's wrong and all.
Speaker 3 (38:18):
The things that i's anxiety.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
Is that anxiety?
Speaker 4 (38:21):
I mean there is this thing called lucid dreaming as well,
which is where it's very very light. So you saw
half all wake half a loose, so it sounds like
you it's a bit of lucid dreaming.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
So I'm sort of mate because it's usually something's not
right and it's something that's very familiar that I should
do well. But I'm like, well, hang on a minute,
I haven't haven't sung this stuff for six years.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
No, that's a that's a notemare.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Oh okay, Well it's not that terrifying because there's some
lovely aspects to it as well. But it's funny. But
when I wake up, I'm like, I thank god, it's
just do you have do you have?
Speaker 7 (38:53):
We?
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Do you have recurring scenarios that crop up, maybe even
if it's just a couple of years apart. But a
dream where you go on that one again?
Speaker 4 (39:00):
No, well, I know, not not consciously. I do dream
pretty well. I don't have nightmares, but no, I dream okay,
but I can't remember any particular theme that I have.
I mean, they basically gone.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
I've had them when literally I'm still going to got
about thirty seconds to go. When literally I've been the
dream and I go on this dream. I quite like
this one, and I'm conscious but not conscious. I've just
been the dream going. Oh the story. Yeah, it's so good. Anyway,
if people want to catch up with you with your
Sleepwell clinic, is that sleep Well? What's the what's the website?
Speaker 3 (39:29):
Sleep Clinic dot co, dot dot.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
Excellent, Thanks Alex. We will be back shortly with smart
Money how Much Pepper from Harbor Asset Management will be
with us News Talk S ed B for more from
the weekend collective. Listen live to News Talks ed B
weekends from three pm, or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
40s and Free Agents: NFL Draft Season
Daniel Jeremiah of Move the Sticks and Gregg Rosenthal of NFL Daily join forces to break down every team's needs this offseason.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.