April 11, 2025 • 54 mins
The Netflix hit Adolescence has got everyone talking - in particular, it's sparked conversations around boys and young men, and what's causing them to be drawn in by the 'manosphere' online.
This week, Francesca and Louise are joined by Andrew Reiner, author of Better Boys, Better Men: The New Masculinity, and a Senior Lecturer at Towson University in Maryland where he teaches courses in men's and cultural studies, who feels that the right conversations aren't being had off the back of the show.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi, I'm Louise Ari and I'm Francesco bud Can and
this is season four of our New Zealand Herald podcast
The Little Things.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Good to have you with us. In this podcast we
talk to experts and find out all the little things
you need to know to improve as many areas of
your life as possible. And today we've got a parenting
app for you now.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
The themes discussed and the TV show Adolescents have been
around for quite a while, but the Netflix show has
really hit a nerve with people, and Keir Starmer in particular.
In particular, we've been wondering where he's been here. Louise,
are you familiar with the world of Themselves and Red
Pills and things?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Well? I am now from the show, but I suppose
I did know about them, but it didn't take too
much notice. What about you?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, look, I was pretty familiar with it. I think
a lot of people are familiar with the concept and
what it was all about. When I was talking about it,
my children just started laughing and saying, can you please
just not use the terminology you're using. You sound like
you're on four Chan in two thousand and.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Fifty, It's already as soon as we know about it, it's
already out of date.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
You sound like you're a tumbler. On twenty ten, I
was like, okay, all right, thank you very much. All Right,
I won't use all the I won't use all the terminology.
But look, I think when it comes down to the
TV show and being shocking and things I think we've
covered through my job, I've covered a lot of stories
about sexual violence online and in person towards women, and
(01:32):
so I didn't think it was huge in you. I
think that there have been shows like Criminal Minds that
have been doing stories about in cells, you know, decade
or so ago. Like I think it wasn't you. But
I suppose the thing is this is a really good
tally show. Artistically, I thought This Adolescence was a fantastic show.
(01:53):
I think it's brilliantly put together and really well acted.
I don't think it's the I don't think it's trying
to be the definitive word in this area. But I
think and I don't think, you know, you should look
at it that way. It is a drama, it's not
a documentary, and it started some good conversations. But we
want to be making sure we're having the right conversations
(02:15):
exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
And I think you know how I felt about it.
I first started watching it when this is nothing new,
This is no surprise. Why is everybody so shocked? Why
is this taking the world by storm? Talk to my
own children, they were like, you know, my younger son
was like, we don't talk to each other like that,
so you know. But I'm like, you're not living in
the UK and a huge population and a stressful environment.
(02:37):
But then and then my daughter's like, oh, I don't know.
I don't get It's no surprise to me either. So
those are the conversations we were having. But what we
all do agree on is that it is starting the conversation,
even if we think it's maybe a decade or two
too late. But I was left thinking, Okay, we're too
from here. How can we really embrace this sudden swelling
(03:00):
and create the momentum we need to help all of us, boys, girls,
me and women live better alongside each other. If you
have watched the TV show, you'll know that the final
episode is a bit of a come to Jesus moment
for the parents of this young boy accused of murdering
a girl at his school. They reflect on their son,
his behavior and their parenting as we all would, and
(03:21):
I think many parents are probably thinking, though, how do
we make sure that we're on top of us so
we understand what's going on and we help our child
if he's struggling to stay afloat. So today we set
shine low. We have an expert, Andrew Rayner, author of
Better Boys, Better Men, than New Masculinity. He's also a
senior lecturer at Towson University in Maryland, where he teaches
(03:43):
courses in men's and cultural studies. Thanks for being with us, Andrew.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Thank you. It's wonderful to be with you both.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
I first started hearing about in culs and red pills
and things like that quite a long time ago, probably
a decade or so ago. And my first thought when
I saw the react to this TV show was have
we missed the boat here and talking about all this stuff?
Could have we made a difference earlier?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yeah? I mean, I you know, I think I think
quite a few people who have really been following, you know,
the manisphere and this movement of in cells. You know,
I think a lot of people have probably had two thoughts.
One is that you know, why has it taken this
long to have this conversation? And the second one is,
oh my god, you know, this is this is just
(04:33):
you know, so much worse than I thought it was.
It's it's a little more complicated than that. It really is.
It's understandable that any of us, as parents and even educators,
you know, would be concerned when we hear boys, for instance,
you know, talking amongst their friends about influencers who are
in these spaces. We hear them, you know, saying things
(04:58):
that make us cringe, you know, quite quite literally. There's
a side to this that I feel like shows like
adolescents and and mostly a lot of conversations don't really cover.
And that's the side of the boys. And and I'm
doing research actually right now, I'm doing a lot of
(05:19):
research and writing for my second book, and and I
decided that I'm going to do a chapter basically on this,
you know, on this this really kind of frenetic concern
that we're you know, developing in some cases understandably over
the manisphere, over you know, the in cells. And what
(05:42):
I'm trying to do is really bring some more context
to the conversation that I feel like we're getting in
the States, for instance, and I think the UK to
a larger degree, maybe even so the New Zealand. There
there's a lot of immediate reactivity when people see this.
There's a lot of you know, see I told you so,
(06:04):
and and this is this just you know, makes makes
us realize, just this is even worse than we've even
been saying it was all along. And one of the
things I think is really important for us to remember
is that yes, there absolutely are more boys and young
men going into these spaces, and that is, of course,
of course cause for concern. The show also is fictitious,
(06:28):
even though you know, of course the writers and the
creators have done of course, you know, it's on their radar,
they've done a little bit of research. It is a
fictitious show. And I think most importantly, we're really not
asking the important questions of boys, which is why, you know,
why why are many of them being drawn to these
spaces in the first place. I feel like when it
(06:51):
comes to boys, and it's been this way for a while,
I feel like we have a lot of conversations that
are kind of over their heads, you know, the conversations
that we're having about them. We're not really, you know,
getting into the trenches with boys and having these conversations.
And I think that's really important. And that's one of
the things I've been doing in research for my new book,
(07:13):
because I feel like so often, and I did this
to some extent in my first book, we talk a
lot about boys in the abstract. You know, we might
talk a little bit with them, some boys that might
be willing to talk in the vast minority, but we
often we often really kind of talk over them, and
we have our own ideas about, you know, how they
should you know, how they should be seeing themselves as
(07:34):
young men, and what they should be talking about, and
what they should be thinking about a lot of the
issues that are important to us. And one of the
things that I'm hoping a show like this will do.
Rather than saying, see, there's just all this toxic masculinity
out there, I'm really hoping it will open doors to
conversations with boys. I am more convinced than ever this
(07:56):
is where we need to go.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I like your description of the re action frenetic. I
think that sums it up nicely, and.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Also liked the use of the word cringe because I
did talk about this. I have two sons and a daughter,
and all of them were like, oh, cringe, mum. So
you know there are right headed young men out there
who see this for well what it is. It doesn't
mean that they're not vulnerable to it though, right so
(08:24):
you know, still keep an eye on it and stuff,
and it gets more clever to capture some of those kids.
So basically, if we go so you've explained, you know,
talked about the franeticness of the reaction to this and
the conversations that started, which I think we all agree
however we felt about the show it has That's something
I am grateful for that it has started those conversations
(08:45):
again and put them really front page. But how dangerous
and harmful are the masculine stereotypes for our boys?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
So the masculine stereotypes for our boys absolutely something to
be concerned about. And I say this not just limited
to a lot of the spaces that we call the manisphere.
Because one of the things that I've been doing in
the research for my new book is giving out like
(09:14):
a mental health survey, and one of the things that
I've been trying to gauge is to give you an
example of this is also body image concerns. We don't
tend to think of that as being something that boys
have to worry about. But we have done a fantastic
job as well. We finally should with girls and women
(09:35):
with body image, right, I mean that training is long
long overdue. What we don't often realize though, is that
is that that's becoming an issue for boys and men.
You know, by the time that a lot of boys
are ten eleven years old, if they're online, they are
already gettating lots and lots of messages about the type
(09:56):
of body that they should have if they want to
be considered you know, competent, ascending men. And it's really
it's it's the same equivalent of what do you member.
I assume Barbie dolls were probably a thing over there
or a version of it, right, yeah, yeah, so we
have we have the same thing with body image with boys,
and it's basically, you know, one of the big franchises
(10:19):
for superheroes in the States is Captain America and I've
just been using that analogy. Captain America is for boys
what Barbie's was for girls. It's this this one expected
body shape and image, you know, body shape and physique
that you should have if you want to be considered
quote successful, you know, if you want to if you
(10:40):
want to really be relevant, this is the body image
that you really should aspire to. And so I bring
this up because when we talk about the damaging and
at times really frightful things messages that boys are being
exposed to, this is another example also of what they're
being exposed to. And we know that, you know, their
(11:00):
brains are far from being developed, they're unsophisticated socially, and
they're getting a lot of these messages for instance, as
one example about body image. And there are finally studies
being done that show, you know, a lot of ecd
countries that I think it's like twenty five percent of
boys beginning as young as ages ten or eleven are
(11:24):
rethinking their dietary habits. Now, for a lot of boys,
that's a really good thing. We want them to be
healthier eaters, right. The problem with that is that the
message they're getting about eating isn't about necessarily becoming healthy eaters.
It's about eating protein and vegetables only, which is what
a lot of older boys do when they get into bodybuilding,
(11:45):
and it's not just about working out to be healthy,
and I think that's a real that's a real misnomer
that we have. You know, we think, well, you know,
lifting weights and building up our core. We know that
that's good things, especially as we get older. But the
problem with that is that for boys, it's not just
about it. It's really not about so much health as
(12:06):
much as it is about relevancy and about feeling like
you're not on the outside of the bubble and feeling
like you're part of this larger, this larger culture. And
so that is an example of a problem we're having
because it's not just body dysmorphia for boys, it's also
mus muscle dysmorphia, and that's becoming a huge issue.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I could not agree with you more. We've both got
teenage boys, and I think my son started at the
gym at age sixteen, but your son started at fifteen,
and they all want to be jacked. And I too
had been completely taken back at you know, my daughter.
We have pretty sensible conversations about body, body image and
(12:49):
things like that, and I've had to I've suddenly gone, Wow,
all these boys are trying to get to and the
gym's now you can get a really cheap gym member
ship that costs you seven dollars a week. And they
are all in there and they're not trying to get fit. Well,
some of them are trying to get fitt to play
rugby or something like that, but most of them are
in there aspiring to look like something they have seen online.
(13:14):
I'm really taken back by this. But now it's really
front and center, I.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Think, oh yeah, And the marketers are all over it too,
because every single thing you could buy previously in the
supermarket that already had an ample amount of protein in
it now is protein plus. Even your snack bars, right everything.
It's really interesting, and I know exactly the shape you're
talking about. It's the really broad shoulders going down to
the nipped waist, but every single muscle you can see.
(13:40):
I mean, it's a tough one for parents too, because
we're like, well, that's a healthy pursuit. They're in the gym,
blah blah blah. But it can also lead down a
really dangerous road because there are people in the gym
that are approaching kids about I could you know, I
could get you even bigger, you know, you could have that,
you could take this and take that and then and
like you say that the algorithm fades them more and
(14:01):
more of the stuff it does.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
That's exactly right. And and once you know, once they
start tapping into some of this online and this is
you know a lot of them, even if they can't
be on social media, a lot of them are on YouTube.
That's a really big place for a lot of boys.
I know, I know this as you probably do for
my own son who's thirteen, and and it does, it
feeds the algorithm and they get more and more of it,
which means that they're getting barraged more and more. And
(14:25):
and so one of the things that a lot of
these young men, these older boys and young men checked
off on my survey was, yes, I do feel pressure
to have this kind of body image. It's it's it's
character tourish. It's just like Barbie Wiz for girls and women.
It's character tourish. But but you're absolutely right, it's that,
you know, it's that jacked build. We know exactly, you
(14:46):
know what it looks like. And you know what doesn't
help is that you know a lot of athletes today
have these have this body shape regardless of the sport
that they're playing, which was never the case in the
past and constantly what they're seeing on TV that they
watch and movies are these guys, you know, ripping their
shirts off, And of course they're all built exactly the same,
(15:08):
right that that built that we're talking about, it is
it is something that that they really cannot hide from.
If they're on YouTube or social media and even watching
TV or movies on Netflix, they can't hide from it.
And it's just they're getting innundated with that. So that's
just one example of the of what we're talking about
of that boys really can't hide from these spaces of
(15:32):
getting messages that initially might seem kind of positive, right
as we talked about there are positive elements to this
great you want to take care of your body, No,
because it gets it gets to be too extreme, you know,
until things get to be a problem. The term that
that they're starting to use is big orexia, which is
(15:53):
disturbing but sums it up so well because there's an
there's anorexia, there's an eating disorder attached to this with
that element of just of adding muscle upon muscle upon
muscle upon muscle, and that's that's becoming that a lot
of oecd countries. It's becoming much more of a thing.
What's also important about a lot of these messages is
(16:14):
that they are getting messages that often are very subtle,
sometimes very direct, but they're getting messages really about what
it means to be a man. And the problem is that,
to a large extent, we only have so much control
over our children now, right, I mean, you both know this.
We only have so much control, regardless of gender identity,
(16:37):
over our children the way that we used to, solely
because of social media, and because it's really amped up.
There's you know, there's always been peer pressure, we know that,
but the level of peer pressure has really accelerated because
of social media, and because so many kids now will
go to friends for advice and for you know, and
(16:59):
for for suggestions and for advice about things in ways
that I think they may have been a little bit
more likely to go to parents in the past. I'm
not saying everybody would, but a little bit more so
than now. You know, when I work in a lot
of boys' schools and I'll talk with them about where
they go when they need help, it's always the same answer.
(17:20):
I go to my friends. I go to my friends.
Do you know what about the school counselor raise your hand?
I asked this when I was over in New Zealand
this past summer. I was at six schools. Well, it
would have been winter for you guys, and I would
ask that in every boys school, do you think raise
your hand if you think any of the boys in
your grade or this room go to the counselor when
(17:42):
there's something they're really struggling with, crickets, no hands. Perception
is reality right, which means that if they believe that
the rest of the guys aren't doing it, why would
they do it? And so they might have a coach,
they might have a teacher that they go to. But
the reflect answer almost always as I go to my
male friends when they're getting these kinds of messages in
(18:04):
places like the Manisphere, on YouTube, in other places in
social media, all these kinds of messages, that means that
they're basically dealing with a lot of this alone, and
the feedback that they're getting off and is not talk
about cringing, it's not what the feedback that we would
want to be giving them or having them.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Here, Andrew, if I may, The manisphere itself is used
to some people. They may have known it exists, but
maybe not how pervasive and well organized it is. Maybe
could you just explain it to our listeners and then
maybe we could talk about how we deal with it.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Sure, yeah, So yeah, the manisphere, as you're alluding to,
it is a lot of different mostly websites, but it
can also include influencers as well, and so it really
has become this kind of loose collection. You know, what
really started out in the manisphere was really on some
influencers and places like YouTube, and then they would have
(19:02):
sometimes websites, but a lot of it was really beginning
on places like YouTube and to some extent in social
media like Instagram, and you would have these guys and
to a large extent, it was really pushing back a
lot against the messages and the pressure a lot of
these men felt that they were experiencing from feminism. So
it really began that way, and it really began with
(19:24):
a lot of these very kind of sledgehammer messages that
were very over the top, and so there really wasn't
that much draw, you know, for a lot of older
boys and young men necessarily. But what it started happening,
and this has kind of happened concomittantly. Definitely with the
ascension of feminism, to be sure, but it's also been
(19:47):
that this in the wellness spaces, and that this is
true not just with the Manisphere, but in a lot
of wellness spaces. There's been a kind of co opting
and a kind of melding of a lot of of
far right kind of political philosophies that have really eased
into these wellness spaces. And I don't think it's at
all coincidence, but some of it is natural, and some
(20:11):
of it really has been a way to really expand
the brand and to really it is a way for
younger people, you know, regardless of gender identity, to really
get more you know, younger people on board and build
their platform. You know, it's worth adding. And this is
something I've been learning through my research more and more
as I'm learning about more and more about the Manisphere,
(20:32):
is that the reasons that a lot of boys go
there are not because they're burgeoning misogynists. It's not because
they're necessarily even anti feminist. A lot of boys are
going onto these spaces. And you're gonna have to stay
with me on this one because I know it might
sound a little bit extreme, but stay with me on this.
A lot of boys are going on to these spaces
(20:54):
because they're seeking acceptance, in validation for their identity as males.
And what I mean by that. One of the things
that another thing I've been asking in the surveys that
I've been giving older boys and young men is you know,
basically giving them like a bunch of boxes to check
off as to why they think that a lot of
(21:15):
these manisphere influencers are really you know, getting more traction,
that they're getting to be more popular, and a lot
of boys really do believe and feel that that it's
it's teaching One of the things that they most often
check off is that it's teaching boys and young men,
you know, how to be stronger in the face of
feminism that can sometimes feel you know, a bit hostile.
(21:38):
And so it's really one of the things that's really
important to keep in mind is that a lot of
boys don't go to these places because again they're burgeoning
misogynists or or they're necessarily you know, anti feminism. A
lot of them go there because they do feel that
in different places of their different orbits of their lives,
(22:00):
our identity is being attacked. It's part of their It's
an extension of who they are, right, It's their maleness.
And and you know, this is something I've been I've
been studying, reading up a lot on and interviewing a
lot of boys and young men about for a couple
of years now for my new book. And you know,
there really are some hostile spaces at times in public
(22:20):
and it's sometimes in co ed schools. One of the
things I hear a lot from my male college students
is that a lot of times when they've been in
high schools, when they were in co ed high schools,
and sometimes in the university, they're afraid to speak up
because they've seen other guys or maybe they had their
own experience where something they said or how they said it,
(22:40):
they would get attacked up for it in class, and
sometimes it was by the teachers, and so they just
shut down. And so, you know, and I could this
is something I could I could spend a lot more
time on around the top the topic of toxic masculinity,
because that gets thrown around a lot too. The point
is is that this is their reality, and regardless of
(23:02):
whether we agree or disagree with it, this is very
much their reality, and so their identity often feels under siege,
and so they're looking for a place again, not necessarily
two tech girls or women, but they're looking for a
place where they can just feel safe and validated for
who they are. That's the reason why a lot of
young men, especially initially go to these spaces. One of
(23:23):
the things that's also changed that's really important to mention,
because my own son has been drawn to this, is that,
for instance, on places like YouTube or on Instagram where
you get these TikTok videos, or of course on TikTok,
a lot of the short videos influencers we know use
a lot of the messages that the more savvy influencers
(23:46):
will use are often very positive messages that we want
boys and young men to get about who they are.
And I'll give you an example what I mean. I
was talking with my son. We were driving to school.
That's a great time. Great time, by the way, have
conversations with your children. I use it all the time,
driving to school, not back from school at the end
of the day, driving there in the morning, and I
(24:08):
said to him, you know, are familiar with Andrew Tate,
you know, the notorious influencer and he said, you know,
I think I know, I think I know who he is.
And he goes, he went on to his phone. He
doesn't have social media yet, my boyfriend, I have very
much against that. But he went on. He went onto
YouTube and there were some TikTok videos on there, and
so we got to a red light and he said,
is this the guy? And I said, yeah, that's him.
(24:29):
And I said, so you're familiar with them? And he said, well,
there's a couple of things that I've seen some of
his messages. And I said, oh, so, you know, what
do you think of them? And again this was an
example of me not wanting to get you know, hyper
vigilant and to use that adjective frenzied about what he's
doing and what he's watching, because boys pick up on
(24:50):
this and they will shut down if they feel like
they're being attacked in any way. So I just tried
to keep my cool and said, okay, you know, let's
let's see what it is. The message. One of the
messages that my son liked so much that Andrew Tate
was saying was that that in order to really it
was basically that message of you know, learn to control
(25:10):
what you can control, and not to agonize and worry
over what you can't control. I had said that to
him in the car ride to school a month earlier
because he was freaking out about something, and that was
exactly what i'd said. And he said to me, you
just said that to me, you know, a little while ago.
And I say, you're absolutely right, that is a really
positive message, and so and so I said to him,
(25:31):
let's let's go on and find a few other messages,
which I thought was probably a good thing for both
of us. And there were some really positive messages, you know.
When I looked into some of the TikTok videos he
was posting, there was some messages we absolutely would want
our sons to hear. So that's what I'm saying when
I say it's complicated. You know. Part of it is
(25:53):
that it's a way to build their platform, There's no
question about it. Right. It's kind of like a gateway drug, right.
It's a way of getting them in and then you
can get them in deeper, and that's where the really
insidious stuff happens when they get in deeper. But initially,
some of the messages are the kind of messages that
more boys do really do need to hear. So it's
a question of how do we encourage the positive messages,
(26:16):
but then teach them to draw the line and have
the and learn the boundaries. You know. Personally, what I
think is better is how do we have these conversations
ourselves with our sons about these positive messages rather than
them feeling like they need to go on there to
hear what we should be talking with them about.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
And I think that's you know, what we'd love to
hear from you now. You know, how as parents do
we step up and help our sounds form those healthy
identities that maybe you know and fill some of these
gaps and what can we do to you know, make
sure that we're raising healthy young men?
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Absolutely, And that really is the question, right That's really it.
That's the crux of it right there. So one of
the things that I think is important to remember just
at the base level, and a lot of us, a
lot of us will find this hard to believe. Boys
actually are pretty are very relational. And what I mean
by that is that a lot of boys will do
(27:17):
whatever you want when they feel like they can trust
you and you're on their side, which means you're validating
who they are. I can tell you that as somebody
who taught middle school, you know, in a previous lifetime.
One of the things I learned that when I could
get the boys, especially to know that I was you
(27:37):
know that that you know, I was basically on their side.
And that didn't mean, of course, for everything. It just
meant that, you know, that I cared about who they
were as people, not just as my students. They would
start to jump through any hoop I put in front
of them, you know, no questions asked, for better or
for worse. But that's one of the things I learned,
is that and and studies are showing more and more
(28:00):
that the way that we get boys to really feel
more connected, and that is a really important thing that
boys need is to feel connected. Is we need to
get them to feel that they can trust us. And
there's lots of ways, of course, as parents, that we
need to do that. One of the ways, just as
an example, is when we have conversations with boys and
they say things that can be cringe worthy. It's really
(28:23):
important that the way that we respond is not the
way that we would like to respond, because boys pay
attention to body language, but they really do when it
comes to things that matter to them, they pay attention
to body language, they pay attention to tone, because boys
are a lot more sensitive than we really want to admit,
or then we really know they are super sensitive boys.
(28:46):
There was a great study would show that when it
came to romantic rejection that boys and young men actually
held on to those emotions of rejection longer than did
the girls and young women. Boys are there, and there's
been research that shows that or every bit men too,
as you know, having the same degree of emotions as
(29:06):
as women and girls do. Of course, what we all
know the problem is that they don't embrace that. They
don't really they don't really learn how to how to
access those. So it's really important that when we have
conversations with our sons, how we how we show up
for them really does matter. It's really important that you
know that our heads don't explode in front of them.
(29:27):
You know that we're not rolling our eyes, that we're
not showing the exasperation, because because when boys think they
might be saying something that might be met with rejection,
they are locked in and paying close attention to the
person who's facing them. So how we respond to them
is super important, and it's really important to lead with
curiosity as opposed to leading with any kind of accusation
(29:49):
or judgment. It's super important to lead with curiosity. Huh,
that's interesting that point that you just made. Why do
you feel this way about that? I mean that right there,
if nothing else, if we just stick with that one,
that right there is a great one to lead with.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I think I think it was you that said, you know,
just remember when you are talking to them that positions
and thoughts and the expression of thoughts that changes over time.
So even if it's cringe worthy in that moment, there's
just a moment in time of that kid's life, and
we've got all this benefit of experience, and they actually
(30:28):
don't you know, whether they think they do all. They
don't think they do. Often they do think they do.
But so that we just sit there and listen to it,
because that position could change in three months, six months,
a year. They're going to grow up just like everybody else.
It's a moment in time.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
You're absolutely right that. Yeah, you are so right about that.
And that's something I know that when we feel threatened
as parents, and we get scared and we feel vulnerable
you know, as anybody does, when they feel vulnerable, they
go to extremes. And you're absolutely right, we need to
remember that they're are far from being developed and their opinions,
as you said, are absolutely far from being far from
(31:05):
being developed as well. And so that's something else that
we also do need to take with a grain of salt.
And it's also really important that when when our sons
do get worked up about something, regardless of what it is,
it's also really important with how we meet that is
really important to them feeling trusted, trusting of us. So
(31:29):
to give you an example what I mean. You know,
when our sons get really worked up, a lot of
parents will say, okay, you know, just calm down, you know,
just calm down, or you're making a really big deal
about this. Man. If you want to shut your son down,
say those two things that will do it then and
in the future.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
To be honest, yes I know.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
I mean if you want to shut me me too,
If you want to shut me down, say those things
to me and I will not come back to you again.
You can imagine what it does to these vulnerable, you know,
very sensitive boys. So's it's really important that when we
see them getting worked up. And sometimes, you know, whether
we want to admit it or not, a lot of
us really do who have sons, especially as they start
(32:12):
to get older, you know, teen years and a little
bit older, a lot of us really do get a
little bit uncomfortable when they get really for instance, when
they start to cry, when they get really emotive in
ways that we think, well, you know, I don't want
my son reacting this way, and that maybe consciously, but subconsciously,
some of us respond that way. And boys do pick
up on that because they feel so vulnerable and they
(32:32):
don't want to feel vulnerable. And so it's really important
that we meet them when they do get upset in
ways that at the very least are just completely neutral.
Commiseration is great. I can see that you're upset, you
know what, based on what you just told me happened today,
I'd probably be upset too if it was me. I
get it. So, you know what, why don't you just
(32:54):
you know, take some time and just know that my
door is open if and when you want to talk
about this. That is something that a lot of boys
never get that, you know, just just the commiseration and
the safe space to know that it's okay to feel
what you're feeling without any judgment. That's something right off
the bat they don't get and so and also keeping
that door open. There was the head of a school
(33:17):
that I was doing some workout in Canada. He told
me this amazing story. He said, you know when my sons,
who are in their twenties now, were younger, and they
both at different times, would come to me at the
end of a day and I was exhausted. He said
he'd be like eleven o'clock at night. They came to
and wanting to talk and he said, he said, look,
I'm exhausting. Can we talk about this tomorrow? And he said,
you know what, this happened with both of them separately.
(33:40):
They never came back to me. He said, They'll go
to their mother. And he's the head of a boys
school and he said, I'm still trying to get them
to talk with me. And they're in their twenties now.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
You're listening to the little things in I guess on
the podcast today as yous academic and author Andrew Rayner
talking about raising boys. We're going to be back after
this break. Andrew, you're giving us all these really great
tips for how we make sure that we're open and
communicating with our sons. I've read a lot of books
(34:14):
on raising boys, and the one thing that they have
in common is the importance in the teen years of
the role of fathers or male mentors in boys' life.
Should they be leading the charge with some of these
conversations that you know, we should be having.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Ideally, yes, ideally yes, now now, I promise I'll come
back to that. But I think it's also super important
to point out, as we all know, there are more
and more single moms out there. Right there's single dads too,
but there's a lot of single moms, and so it's
really important that they know that they can and do
(34:52):
and always will play an incredibly important role in their sons' lives.
Because I personally don't believe it means, you know that
single moms, for instance, have to find men that can
have conversations like this with their sons, because I because
I think a mother's perspective is incredibly important to a
son having, you know, at all stages of their lives,
(35:14):
all stages. Now that said, going back to that point,
I do think it's important for fathers to have more
of a growth a lot of them, not all of them,
but for a lot of them to have more of
a growth mindset than they do. One of the things
that when I came over to New Zealand and I
was there a while back, and afterwards there'd be Q
and A and I would hear constantly from lives and
(35:37):
even some some some fathers, I'm saying, you know, you know,
it's like this when when my son and my and
my husband are talking, they're constantly at each other's throats
like that. That is such a common dynamic and it
doesn't have to be that way. This isn't biological, you know,
to to sit there and to say that you know,
oh well, it's just you know, there's something edible about it,
(35:59):
or it's evolution tionary. Personally, I don't buy into that,
because I think it's absolutely possible for fathers and sons
to have far more integrated, supportive relationships than that. I
think what it really requires is that. And I'm not
putting the onus squarely on fathers, because I think some
mothers could benefit from this too. But I think a
lot of dads really do need to understand that who
(36:22):
boys are today is different than who we were in
previous generations. There's no question about it, and I can
easily unpack that. In addition to that, boys needs have
changed because of that, they have dramatically changed, and that's
a whole other conversation. Again, I'm happy to unpack, and
it takes time, but fathers need to understand who boys
are today and what they need, and it is similar
(36:44):
and different from what we needed in the past. And
as such, it's very important for fathers to understand who
boys are today as they approach them, because at the
very least, if fathers can do some of the things
we were talking about about, you know, meeting boys emotional
reactions with no judgment and no ridicule, at the very least,
(37:06):
just giving them the space to do it and acknowledging
and saying, I see you're upset. I get it. God
knows there been times I felt this way too, for
things like this, I'm here if you need me. That doesn't,
that doesn't, that doesn't require a lot, And and it
also just letting sons know you know that that again,
that door is open if and when you're ready to talk.
(37:28):
What it all boils down to is that if fathers
could learn that even if they don't want to really
have these kinds of conversations, you know, with their wives
or with other men, that's fine, that's on that's their
that's their prerogative. But the but boys do need this.
Boys are not boy There is a dearth of resiliency
(37:49):
very much in boys today. And and you know this
is across the board, from education, even in the workplace,
their mental health, the ways that they're dealing with rejection,
and they are horrible, horrible degrees of loneliness and alienation.
These all speak to endure the resiliency, and so it's
really important to understand that when you're approaching your son
(38:13):
and how you deal with them. And I absolutely think
that if fathers could just learn to meet signs more
of where they are, understanding where they are, and meet
them where they are and now don't make it about you,
I think that would go a long way in building
a lot more trust with Signs and they'd be more
open to hearing the kind of messages that we want
to we want them to hear.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
It's really hard, and it's an absolute can of words,
but if you do go back to at leastence, but
just that moment and think about the experiences that that
father had and the way he was raised in the
generation before him. I mean, cracky, But I think if
you if you take it from where you said, which
is this isn't about you, so you know, maybe you
(38:55):
do need to go work on some stuff that from
your own childhood or whatever, but then try and bring
that positive role model into the now for your child,
because you know, we don't know we're walking around. We
don't know what this dad's childhood looked like and how
he can He's like, I don't understand because no one
(39:16):
helped me when I was in a pickle when I
was sixteen.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
But I think it also comes back to what you
were saying, Andrew, is that our children are growing up
in a different environment than we did, or that any
other generation ever has. And I wonder if we can
unpack that for a moment, because of course, the one
major difference is they're living in a digital world. They're
living with the social media and the YouTube and things
like that. I mean, is that playing a part in
(39:39):
why these children are different today?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Absolutely? Yeah, as we were talking about earlier, we all
know about social we all know about pure pressure, and
you know, all of that. We all grew up with it.
No one is can sidestep that. What's different today is
that there is this ethos younger people about this need
to always be connected. And one of the things there
(40:05):
was a course I used to teach at my university
and I called it I Think leading Lives that Matter.
And one of the things I would always ask students
is what is the thing that you're most afraid of?
And regardless of gender identity, they always would say feeling
like I'm feeling like I'm not connected to my friends,
feeling like I'm all alone on that bubble. The thing
(40:25):
that that motivates and and enervates them the most is
the feeling of of being apart from the crowd and
the you know, they want to be a part of
never apart from the crowd. And so that means whether
it's listening constantly listening to music or you know constantly
you know, watching the right kinds of shows that that
(40:47):
that the people that they respected mayor watching everything that
they consume in pop culture is about feel feeling like
they're going to be connected because they're going to go
back on to social media and see people talking about it.
So there there is a a in we can't even
fathom the degree of peer pressure to be connected if
we didn't grow up with it. It's just it's off
(41:08):
the charts. That is what motivates them and as I said,
enervates them. The other thing, too, is that a lot
of the values that are being taught in schools today
at a very young age are very much social emotional
learning values, which personally I think are great. So a
lot of kids are being taught and being expected at
(41:31):
a young age to learn greater self awareness, to learn
how to be a little bit more empathetic, to learn
how to collaborate, to learn how to be better communicators. Now,
all the things I just mentioned are kind of hallmarks
of sel education and you need them now, not just
in the classroom, but in the workplace and everything I
(41:54):
just mentioned. Whether it's biological or through socialization. We know
that a lot of girls in young in are better
at developing these skills than a lot of boys and
young men. So it doesn't matter really the why. The
important thing is that we're still boys are being expected
and they understand that they need that they need to
have these skills, but a lot of them are still
(42:15):
at a deficit with learning how to master them. I'm
not saying all boys, I'm saying a lot of boys.
And so that's another thing that most of us didn't
grow up with. Most of us didn't grow up and
you know, in schools with these expectations of that, you know,
even if you don't really know how to practice empathy,
you need to at least understand that that you know,
we're putting that pressure on You're not not pressure in
(42:36):
a bad way. The expectation that you need to understand
this is how you need to behave. So there's a
lot of values that that ultimately can be really good
that that are being taught at younger and younger ages,
and that's not something that we grew up with. And
so there's this kind of, you know, for a lot
of boys and young men, there's a kind of you know,
(42:58):
their arms are being pulled in different directions. On the
one hand, they're being told to be all these things
at a very young age, and they're getting these messages
that they should be this way because it's required in
school settings, and thank god, it's required a more workplace
settings too. But on the other hand, a lot of
the messages they're getting on social media from influencers are
pulling them in the other direction. Do not encourage a
(43:20):
lot of this. And so the point is is that,
you know, when we're talking about boys, it's really important
to understand that they're getting yanked in two completely different
directions and they don't know whether how to make heads
or tails a lot of it. And so we absolutely
are growing up, you know, in a very different era.
And you know, one of the things that this is
(43:42):
manifesting through are the spikes we're seeing in mental health
problems across the board for everybody of these generations, right anxiety, depression,
chronic stress, and then of course we know about the loneliness.
So you know, these are things that it's not just
a matter of that we're more aware of them now.
You know, we grew up and we knew our friends
(44:03):
and we knew ourselves, and there was not this this chronic,
chronic you know, systemic degree of mental health issues that
were so that everybody was struggling with.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
I think the term knowing yourself is the key one
there for me is I totally see it when you
described it that way. I can see how because it's
really easy even as an adult I've had to recently
stop listening to political podcasts, especially coming out of the US,
(44:34):
because because I cannot. I'm just going, I'm just it's
too much. And I think you can see because they're very,
very clever at it influences, giving you these positive throwing
out the positive messages, and then sucking you in with
the negative. And I can only imagine what that's like
as a thirteen, fourteen, fifteen year old kid. You know,
(44:55):
I think the girls are exposed to it too, but
I think the more negative thing is coming in for boys.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
It is it is the analogy that I use, the
metaphor that I use is is, you know, we've done
a great job of saying to girls, you can pick
anything you want in the wardrobe, you can in any
combination you want, and and and that is a great thing.
That is a wonderful thing that we've said to them.
You can wear anything on the rack that you want
and and you're good to go. We we'll support you
(45:21):
with that. We don't do that with boys. You know,
we're still basically saying to them metaphorically speaking, although quite
literally too, you need to wear black, you need to
wear navy blue, you need to wear gray. You need
to wear brown. You know, we're you know, and and
and this is, by the way, is the type of
clothing you should be wearing metaphorically and literally. That's what
we're doing still with boys. And so, you know, we
(45:42):
have these expectations for boys, but we're also still telling
them there's a limited way that you should be thinking
of yourself, you know, as as a boy and as
an ascending man. And so they're getting, you know, all
these conflicting things. And and one of the things that's
that I think is that is so helpful for girls,
that is so important is that they have what I
(46:04):
call emotional safety nets. You know, they learn at a
young age to develop these. It is the extremely rare
group of boys that create this and maintain it. Because
every time I go into schools and I'll talk to
the boys and I did this in New Zealand, and
I'll say to them, you know, when girls have problems,
how do you what do you? Where do you think
(46:24):
they go for support? And so many of the boys
could say, oh, they you know, they they might go
to their mom or they or they've got friends. Absolutely good,
where do you guys go? Again? Crickets? Because so few boys.
Most boys do not have this, and and and they
and they don't know how to create it. They don't
(46:46):
know how to maintain it, and they don't know how
to repair it. And that's true of all of their relationships.
Boys really need to be taught how to create relationships,
regardless of the kind we're talking about, how to maintain them,
and then how to repair them, which is still not
something that we really really do a great job up
with boys because we expect through as most as they'll
pick it up boiler alert, they do.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Yeah, I probably have presumed that a little bit along
the way, Andrew, Look what in summary, what would you
love to see come out of this whole adolescence Hoopler.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
What I would love to see is for us to
be having conversations with our sons that feel safe to them,
that feel supportive for them, and where we're creating these
spaces where they feel that it's it's safe to do
(47:42):
this and I can say what I want to say
and know that there won't be retribution, because I really
do believe that, you know, this really is where we
really really need to kind of, you know, get our
boys back, is by engaging with them and having these
kinds of connections that a lot of us really don't
have with them, at least they don't think so, and
(48:04):
so it's it's really important, you know. I really hope
that at the very least what will happen as a
result of adolescence and all the conversations that are you know,
that are happening for this, that we'll meet boys more
where they are and not where we are, because we
have so many expectations that we want boys to meet
us where we because we think, you know, we are
(48:25):
in the rut and we know what's best all the time,
and that it's not possible that boys can know in
any state in their lives what's best for them. Boys
really need us to meet them where they are right
now if we if we really want to pull them
back from this and have the kind of conversations that
they will have, and they will meet there if they
feel that we value what they have to say and
(48:48):
that they can trust us with what they're sharing with us.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
So it's it's all uss for sure, you know, because
everybody else is trying to get a piece of them too.
So thank you so much, Andrew. That has been so helpful.
I hope everybody's gotten, you know, one or two tips
out of that.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
At least I've got a few little things I need
to think about, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
So I'm really I'm very grateful, thank you for having
me on. I really have just loved the conversation so much.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
I don't know, I almost don't know where to start.
There's so many things I want to say about that
conversation with I enjoyed it a lot more than I
thought I would, if I'm honest.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Why is that?
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Because why did you think you wouldn't enjoy it?
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Because I was afraid that it was I'm stuck in
that zero sum game of what has been good for
women doesn't have to be bad for men. But actually,
what he reminded me about was just meeting boys where
they are. Take that whole thing out of it. It
doesn't really matter, you know.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
So it comes back to the whole when he was
talking about boys looking for their identity and not feeling
safe to speak out and do all these things. Were
you starting, Were you thinking to yourself, We'll hang on
a minute. Women have been battling that for a long time,
and then they've finally we've sort of got to a
place you sort of suggesting that, yes, that we were
(50:13):
talking about with the zero sum, right, that it's not
one or the other. One gender doesn't have to have
dominance or anything or doesn't have to you know, we
can all get to better places, right, Okay, Yeah, No.
Because he was so strong and all of that, I
actually stopped thinking about women and girls all together for
a moment there and just saying, actually, where does the
(50:35):
attention need to go? Yes, And I'm not saying no
attention on women. I'm saying right now, some of our
boys are in trouble. Yes, And I just to go
to explain to put that into context a little bit.
You and I have spoken to a lot of teenagers
about that show, and the young the teenage girls. There's
(50:56):
not a lot of empathy there from them because they're
sort of going, you know what, I've had to put
up with this, this is and this, and that's probably
driven us a little bit to get to that zero
some sort of situation we're in. But you're right, it's
kind of like put that aside. I thought it was
really great. I know a lot of people don't want
to have the conversation that our children are growing up
(51:18):
in a different a growing up in a different environment
or a different to how they've been in the past.
It was interesting is Reclined It a podcast with John
hit and he wrote a book called The Anxious Generation,
How the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic
(51:40):
of mental illness, and he says that our kids are
the least flourishing generation we know. And that's pretty much
what Andrew was saying there, that you know, this reliant
the impact of social media and YouTube and living our
lives online has created this loneliness and this lack of
resilience because it's when we're kids, we wire our brains
(52:01):
with all sorts of different situations and environments in order
to become functioning adults, right, and we're not getting that.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
The irony of the world seeming bigger to them, but
actually it's smaller, Yeah, because it's zeroing in on a screen, but.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
It's I spoke about the World Happiness Report. I don't
know if you read that put out by University of Oxford.
They said that nineteen percent of young adults across the
world reported in twenty twenty three that they have no
one they could count on for social support. Now you
might think to yourself, nineteen percent, that's not too bad,
but that is a thirty nine percent increase compared to
(52:38):
two thousand and.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Six and that's not that long ago. So that is that.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Impact of social media and being on our phones. And
we talked about this, you know, social connection as Andrew
was saying that social connection is such a key component
to happiness. And my daughter's made this comment. She said
to me, she said, people go online because they're only
and then they get lonelier. And it's not just boys,
it's girls as well.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Oh my god. That is a bit of a sad thing,
isn't it. But it's true. And I spoke to a
male educated before we did this today and he said
in an all boys school, and he said, look, Louise,
one of the biggest jobs we have is to make
these young men feel safe and connected. And he'll do
like maybe a hundred bro hugs a day, safe and
(53:24):
cared about and cared about. Yep.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
Yeah, And actually that's that's our basic job as parents
is to let it make sure that our children know
that they're loved and we care about them, and that
they're safe. And you know, once again Andrew was talking
about all those expectations that we put on our children
as well, and there's like a different kind of expectations.
(53:48):
There's lots of different expectations we put but it's just
time to step back now. I found that really helpful.
I mean, I sort of tend to think that I
do a lot of the things that Andrew was mean
to do, but there's always a couple of other things
like I, oh, probably not very good at doing that.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
And even if you and I were doing everything perfectly
in our home, which I think we both admit that
we aren't all the time, Heck no, we're still our
children still have to function in the wider world, right,
so we still have to be aware of it. Even
if we say, oh, no, I have pretty good conversation
with my kids, and my kids will tell me you
think you know that, sibling, but I can tell you
(54:23):
a few things. So definitely there's always roun for improvement.
Speaker 1 (54:27):
Thanks for joining us on our new Zealand Heeri podcast series,
The Little Things. We hope you shared this podcast with
the women in your life so we can all help
our boys grow into respectful young.
Speaker 2 (54:37):
Men and share it with the men in your life.
You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts. And for more on this and other topics,
heat to endzed Herald dot co dot
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Nz and we'll catch you next time on the Little
Things
Hi, I'm Louise Ari and I'm Francesco bud Can and
this is season four of our New Zealand Herald podcast
The Little Things.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Good to have you with us. In this podcast we
talk to experts and find out all the little things
you need to know to improve as many areas of
your life as possible. And today we've got a parenting
app for you now.
Speaker 1 (00:25):
The themes discussed and the TV show Adolescents have been
around for quite a while, but the Netflix show has
really hit a nerve with people, and Keir Starmer in particular.
In particular, we've been wondering where he's been here. Louise,
are you familiar with the world of Themselves and Red
Pills and things?
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Well? I am now from the show, but I suppose
I did know about them, but it didn't take too
much notice. What about you?
Speaker 1 (00:50):
Yeah, look, I was pretty familiar with it. I think
a lot of people are familiar with the concept and
what it was all about. When I was talking about it,
my children just started laughing and saying, can you please
just not use the terminology you're using. You sound like
you're on four Chan in two thousand and.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
Fifty, It's already as soon as we know about it, it's
already out of date.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
You sound like you're a tumbler. On twenty ten, I
was like, okay, all right, thank you very much. All Right,
I won't use all the I won't use all the terminology.
But look, I think when it comes down to the
TV show and being shocking and things I think we've
covered through my job, I've covered a lot of stories
about sexual violence online and in person towards women, and
(01:32):
so I didn't think it was huge in you. I
think that there have been shows like Criminal Minds that
have been doing stories about in cells, you know, decade
or so ago. Like I think it wasn't you. But
I suppose the thing is this is a really good
tally show. Artistically, I thought This Adolescence was a fantastic show.
(01:53):
I think it's brilliantly put together and really well acted.
I don't think it's the I don't think it's trying
to be the definitive word in this area. But I
think and I don't think, you know, you should look
at it that way. It is a drama, it's not
a documentary, and it started some good conversations. But we
want to be making sure we're having the right conversations
(02:15):
exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
And I think you know how I felt about it.
I first started watching it when this is nothing new,
This is no surprise. Why is everybody so shocked? Why
is this taking the world by storm? Talk to my
own children, they were like, you know, my younger son
was like, we don't talk to each other like that,
so you know. But I'm like, you're not living in
the UK and a huge population and a stressful environment.
(02:37):
But then and then my daughter's like, oh, I don't know.
I don't get It's no surprise to me either. So
those are the conversations we were having. But what we
all do agree on is that it is starting the conversation,
even if we think it's maybe a decade or two
too late. But I was left thinking, Okay, we're too
from here. How can we really embrace this sudden swelling
(03:00):
and create the momentum we need to help all of us, boys, girls,
me and women live better alongside each other. If you
have watched the TV show, you'll know that the final
episode is a bit of a come to Jesus moment
for the parents of this young boy accused of murdering
a girl at his school. They reflect on their son,
his behavior and their parenting as we all would, and
(03:21):
I think many parents are probably thinking, though, how do
we make sure that we're on top of us so
we understand what's going on and we help our child
if he's struggling to stay afloat. So today we set
shine low. We have an expert, Andrew Rayner, author of
Better Boys, Better Men, than New Masculinity. He's also a
senior lecturer at Towson University in Maryland, where he teaches
(03:43):
courses in men's and cultural studies. Thanks for being with us, Andrew.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Thank you. It's wonderful to be with you both.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
I first started hearing about in culs and red pills
and things like that quite a long time ago, probably
a decade or so ago. And my first thought when
I saw the react to this TV show was have
we missed the boat here and talking about all this stuff?
Could have we made a difference earlier?
Speaker 3 (04:10):
Yeah? I mean, I you know, I think I think
quite a few people who have really been following, you know,
the manisphere and this movement of in cells. You know,
I think a lot of people have probably had two thoughts.
One is that you know, why has it taken this
long to have this conversation? And the second one is,
oh my god, you know, this is this is just
(04:33):
you know, so much worse than I thought it was.
It's it's a little more complicated than that. It really is.
It's understandable that any of us, as parents and even educators,
you know, would be concerned when we hear boys, for instance,
you know, talking amongst their friends about influencers who are
in these spaces. We hear them, you know, saying things
(04:58):
that make us cringe, you know, quite quite literally. There's
a side to this that I feel like shows like
adolescents and and mostly a lot of conversations don't really cover.
And that's the side of the boys. And and I'm
doing research actually right now, I'm doing a lot of
(05:19):
research and writing for my second book, and and I
decided that I'm going to do a chapter basically on this,
you know, on this this really kind of frenetic concern
that we're you know, developing in some cases understandably over
the manisphere, over you know, the in cells. And what
(05:42):
I'm trying to do is really bring some more context
to the conversation that I feel like we're getting in
the States, for instance, and I think the UK to
a larger degree, maybe even so the New Zealand. There
there's a lot of immediate reactivity when people see this.
There's a lot of you know, see I told you so,
(06:04):
and and this is this just you know, makes makes
us realize, just this is even worse than we've even
been saying it was all along. And one of the
things I think is really important for us to remember
is that yes, there absolutely are more boys and young
men going into these spaces, and that is, of course,
of course cause for concern. The show also is fictitious,
(06:28):
even though you know, of course the writers and the
creators have done of course, you know, it's on their radar,
they've done a little bit of research. It is a
fictitious show. And I think most importantly, we're really not
asking the important questions of boys, which is why, you know,
why why are many of them being drawn to these
spaces in the first place. I feel like when it
(06:51):
comes to boys, and it's been this way for a while,
I feel like we have a lot of conversations that
are kind of over their heads, you know, the conversations
that we're having about them. We're not really, you know,
getting into the trenches with boys and having these conversations.
And I think that's really important. And that's one of
the things I've been doing in research for my new book,
(07:13):
because I feel like so often, and I did this
to some extent in my first book, we talk a
lot about boys in the abstract. You know, we might
talk a little bit with them, some boys that might
be willing to talk in the vast minority, but we
often we often really kind of talk over them, and
we have our own ideas about, you know, how they
should you know, how they should be seeing themselves as
(07:34):
young men, and what they should be talking about, and
what they should be thinking about a lot of the
issues that are important to us. And one of the
things that I'm hoping a show like this will do.
Rather than saying, see, there's just all this toxic masculinity
out there, I'm really hoping it will open doors to
conversations with boys. I am more convinced than ever this
(07:56):
is where we need to go.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
I like your description of the re action frenetic. I
think that sums it up nicely, and.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Also liked the use of the word cringe because I
did talk about this. I have two sons and a daughter,
and all of them were like, oh, cringe, mum. So
you know there are right headed young men out there
who see this for well what it is. It doesn't
mean that they're not vulnerable to it though, right so
(08:24):
you know, still keep an eye on it and stuff,
and it gets more clever to capture some of those kids.
So basically, if we go so you've explained, you know,
talked about the franeticness of the reaction to this and
the conversations that started, which I think we all agree
however we felt about the show it has That's something
I am grateful for that it has started those conversations
(08:45):
again and put them really front page. But how dangerous
and harmful are the masculine stereotypes for our boys?
Speaker 3 (08:54):
So the masculine stereotypes for our boys absolutely something to
be concerned about. And I say this not just limited
to a lot of the spaces that we call the manisphere.
Because one of the things that I've been doing in
the research for my new book is giving out like
(09:14):
a mental health survey, and one of the things that
I've been trying to gauge is to give you an
example of this is also body image concerns. We don't
tend to think of that as being something that boys
have to worry about. But we have done a fantastic
job as well. We finally should with girls and women
(09:35):
with body image, right, I mean that training is long
long overdue. What we don't often realize though, is that
is that that's becoming an issue for boys and men.
You know, by the time that a lot of boys
are ten eleven years old, if they're online, they are
already gettating lots and lots of messages about the type
(09:56):
of body that they should have if they want to
be considered you know, competent, ascending men. And it's really
it's it's the same equivalent of what do you member.
I assume Barbie dolls were probably a thing over there
or a version of it, right, yeah, yeah, so we
have we have the same thing with body image with boys,
and it's basically, you know, one of the big franchises
(10:19):
for superheroes in the States is Captain America and I've
just been using that analogy. Captain America is for boys
what Barbie's was for girls. It's this this one expected
body shape and image, you know, body shape and physique
that you should have if you want to be considered
quote successful, you know, if you want to if you
(10:40):
want to really be relevant, this is the body image
that you really should aspire to. And so I bring
this up because when we talk about the damaging and
at times really frightful things messages that boys are being
exposed to, this is another example also of what they're
being exposed to. And we know that, you know, their
(11:00):
brains are far from being developed, they're unsophisticated socially, and
they're getting a lot of these messages for instance, as
one example about body image. And there are finally studies
being done that show, you know, a lot of ecd
countries that I think it's like twenty five percent of
boys beginning as young as ages ten or eleven are
(11:24):
rethinking their dietary habits. Now, for a lot of boys,
that's a really good thing. We want them to be
healthier eaters, right. The problem with that is that the
message they're getting about eating isn't about necessarily becoming healthy eaters.
It's about eating protein and vegetables only, which is what
a lot of older boys do when they get into bodybuilding,
(11:45):
and it's not just about working out to be healthy,
and I think that's a real that's a real misnomer
that we have. You know, we think, well, you know,
lifting weights and building up our core. We know that
that's good things, especially as we get older. But the
problem with that is that for boys, it's not just
about it. It's really not about so much health as
(12:06):
much as it is about relevancy and about feeling like
you're not on the outside of the bubble and feeling
like you're part of this larger, this larger culture. And
so that is an example of a problem we're having
because it's not just body dysmorphia for boys, it's also
mus muscle dysmorphia, and that's becoming a huge issue.
Speaker 1 (12:28):
I could not agree with you more. We've both got
teenage boys, and I think my son started at the
gym at age sixteen, but your son started at fifteen,
and they all want to be jacked. And I too
had been completely taken back at you know, my daughter.
We have pretty sensible conversations about body, body image and
(12:49):
things like that, and I've had to I've suddenly gone, Wow,
all these boys are trying to get to and the
gym's now you can get a really cheap gym member
ship that costs you seven dollars a week. And they
are all in there and they're not trying to get fit. Well,
some of them are trying to get fitt to play
rugby or something like that, but most of them are
in there aspiring to look like something they have seen online.
(13:14):
I'm really taken back by this. But now it's really
front and center, I.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
Think, oh yeah, And the marketers are all over it too,
because every single thing you could buy previously in the
supermarket that already had an ample amount of protein in
it now is protein plus. Even your snack bars, right everything.
It's really interesting, and I know exactly the shape you're
talking about. It's the really broad shoulders going down to
the nipped waist, but every single muscle you can see.
(13:40):
I mean, it's a tough one for parents too, because
we're like, well, that's a healthy pursuit. They're in the gym,
blah blah blah. But it can also lead down a
really dangerous road because there are people in the gym
that are approaching kids about I could you know, I
could get you even bigger, you know, you could have that,
you could take this and take that and then and
like you say that the algorithm fades them more and
(14:01):
more of the stuff it does.
Speaker 3 (14:03):
That's exactly right. And and once you know, once they
start tapping into some of this online and this is
you know a lot of them, even if they can't
be on social media, a lot of them are on YouTube.
That's a really big place for a lot of boys.
I know, I know this as you probably do for
my own son who's thirteen, and and it does, it
feeds the algorithm and they get more and more of it,
which means that they're getting barraged more and more. And
(14:25):
and so one of the things that a lot of
these young men, these older boys and young men checked
off on my survey was, yes, I do feel pressure
to have this kind of body image. It's it's it's
character tourish. It's just like Barbie Wiz for girls and women.
It's character tourish. But but you're absolutely right, it's that,
you know, it's that jacked build. We know exactly, you
(14:46):
know what it looks like. And you know what doesn't
help is that you know a lot of athletes today
have these have this body shape regardless of the sport
that they're playing, which was never the case in the
past and constantly what they're seeing on TV that they
watch and movies are these guys, you know, ripping their
shirts off, And of course they're all built exactly the same,
(15:08):
right that that built that we're talking about, it is
it is something that that they really cannot hide from.
If they're on YouTube or social media and even watching
TV or movies on Netflix, they can't hide from it.
And it's just they're getting innundated with that. So that's
just one example of the of what we're talking about
of that boys really can't hide from these spaces of
(15:32):
getting messages that initially might seem kind of positive, right
as we talked about there are positive elements to this
great you want to take care of your body, No,
because it gets it gets to be too extreme, you know,
until things get to be a problem. The term that
that they're starting to use is big orexia, which is
(15:53):
disturbing but sums it up so well because there's an
there's anorexia, there's an eating disorder attached to this with
that element of just of adding muscle upon muscle upon
muscle upon muscle, and that's that's becoming that a lot
of oecd countries. It's becoming much more of a thing.
What's also important about a lot of these messages is
(16:14):
that they are getting messages that often are very subtle,
sometimes very direct, but they're getting messages really about what
it means to be a man. And the problem is that,
to a large extent, we only have so much control
over our children now, right, I mean, you both know this.
We only have so much control, regardless of gender identity,
(16:37):
over our children the way that we used to, solely
because of social media, and because it's really amped up.
There's you know, there's always been peer pressure, we know that,
but the level of peer pressure has really accelerated because
of social media, and because so many kids now will
go to friends for advice and for you know, and
(16:59):
for for suggestions and for advice about things in ways
that I think they may have been a little bit
more likely to go to parents in the past. I'm
not saying everybody would, but a little bit more so
than now. You know, when I work in a lot
of boys' schools and I'll talk with them about where
they go when they need help, it's always the same answer.
(17:20):
I go to my friends. I go to my friends.
Do you know what about the school counselor raise your hand?
I asked this when I was over in New Zealand
this past summer. I was at six schools. Well, it
would have been winter for you guys, and I would
ask that in every boys school, do you think raise
your hand if you think any of the boys in
your grade or this room go to the counselor when
(17:42):
there's something they're really struggling with, crickets, no hands. Perception
is reality right, which means that if they believe that
the rest of the guys aren't doing it, why would
they do it? And so they might have a coach,
they might have a teacher that they go to. But
the reflect answer almost always as I go to my
male friends when they're getting these kinds of messages in
(18:04):
places like the Manisphere, on YouTube, in other places in
social media, all these kinds of messages, that means that
they're basically dealing with a lot of this alone, and
the feedback that they're getting off and is not talk
about cringing, it's not what the feedback that we would
want to be giving them or having them.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Here, Andrew, if I may, The manisphere itself is used
to some people. They may have known it exists, but
maybe not how pervasive and well organized it is. Maybe
could you just explain it to our listeners and then
maybe we could talk about how we deal with it.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
Sure, yeah, So yeah, the manisphere, as you're alluding to,
it is a lot of different mostly websites, but it
can also include influencers as well, and so it really
has become this kind of loose collection. You know, what
really started out in the manisphere was really on some
influencers and places like YouTube, and then they would have
(19:02):
sometimes websites, but a lot of it was really beginning
on places like YouTube and to some extent in social
media like Instagram, and you would have these guys and
to a large extent, it was really pushing back a
lot against the messages and the pressure a lot of
these men felt that they were experiencing from feminism. So
it really began that way, and it really began with
(19:24):
a lot of these very kind of sledgehammer messages that
were very over the top, and so there really wasn't
that much draw, you know, for a lot of older
boys and young men necessarily. But what it started happening,
and this has kind of happened concomittantly. Definitely with the
ascension of feminism, to be sure, but it's also been
(19:47):
that this in the wellness spaces, and that this is
true not just with the Manisphere, but in a lot
of wellness spaces. There's been a kind of co opting
and a kind of melding of a lot of of
far right kind of political philosophies that have really eased
into these wellness spaces. And I don't think it's at
all coincidence, but some of it is natural, and some
(20:11):
of it really has been a way to really expand
the brand and to really it is a way for
younger people, you know, regardless of gender identity, to really
get more you know, younger people on board and build
their platform. You know, it's worth adding. And this is
something I've been learning through my research more and more
as I'm learning about more and more about the Manisphere,
(20:32):
is that the reasons that a lot of boys go
there are not because they're burgeoning misogynists. It's not because
they're necessarily even anti feminist. A lot of boys are
going onto these spaces. And you're gonna have to stay
with me on this one because I know it might
sound a little bit extreme, but stay with me on this.
A lot of boys are going on to these spaces
(20:54):
because they're seeking acceptance, in validation for their identity as males.
And what I mean by that. One of the things
that another thing I've been asking in the surveys that
I've been giving older boys and young men is you know,
basically giving them like a bunch of boxes to check
off as to why they think that a lot of
(21:15):
these manisphere influencers are really you know, getting more traction,
that they're getting to be more popular, and a lot
of boys really do believe and feel that that it's
it's teaching One of the things that they most often
check off is that it's teaching boys and young men,
you know, how to be stronger in the face of
feminism that can sometimes feel you know, a bit hostile.
(21:38):
And so it's really one of the things that's really
important to keep in mind is that a lot of
boys don't go to these places because again they're burgeoning
misogynists or or they're necessarily you know, anti feminism. A
lot of them go there because they do feel that
in different places of their different orbits of their lives,
(22:00):
our identity is being attacked. It's part of their It's
an extension of who they are, right, It's their maleness.
And and you know, this is something I've been I've
been studying, reading up a lot on and interviewing a
lot of boys and young men about for a couple
of years now for my new book. And you know,
there really are some hostile spaces at times in public
(22:20):
and it's sometimes in co ed schools. One of the
things I hear a lot from my male college students
is that a lot of times when they've been in
high schools, when they were in co ed high schools,
and sometimes in the university, they're afraid to speak up
because they've seen other guys or maybe they had their
own experience where something they said or how they said it,
(22:40):
they would get attacked up for it in class, and
sometimes it was by the teachers, and so they just
shut down. And so, you know, and I could this
is something I could I could spend a lot more
time on around the top the topic of toxic masculinity,
because that gets thrown around a lot too. The point
is is that this is their reality, and regardless of
(23:02):
whether we agree or disagree with it, this is very
much their reality, and so their identity often feels under siege,
and so they're looking for a place again, not necessarily
two tech girls or women, but they're looking for a
place where they can just feel safe and validated for
who they are. That's the reason why a lot of
young men, especially initially go to these spaces. One of
(23:23):
the things that's also changed that's really important to mention,
because my own son has been drawn to this, is that,
for instance, on places like YouTube or on Instagram where
you get these TikTok videos, or of course on TikTok,
a lot of the short videos influencers we know use
a lot of the messages that the more savvy influencers
(23:46):
will use are often very positive messages that we want
boys and young men to get about who they are.
And I'll give you an example what I mean. I
was talking with my son. We were driving to school.
That's a great time. Great time, by the way, have
conversations with your children. I use it all the time,
driving to school, not back from school at the end
of the day, driving there in the morning, and I
(24:08):
said to him, you know, are familiar with Andrew Tate,
you know, the notorious influencer and he said, you know,
I think I know, I think I know who he is.
And he goes, he went on to his phone. He
doesn't have social media yet, my boyfriend, I have very
much against that. But he went on. He went onto
YouTube and there were some TikTok videos on there, and
so we got to a red light and he said,
is this the guy? And I said, yeah, that's him.
(24:29):
And I said, so you're familiar with them? And he said, well,
there's a couple of things that I've seen some of
his messages. And I said, oh, so, you know, what
do you think of them? And again this was an
example of me not wanting to get you know, hyper
vigilant and to use that adjective frenzied about what he's
doing and what he's watching, because boys pick up on
(24:50):
this and they will shut down if they feel like
they're being attacked in any way. So I just tried
to keep my cool and said, okay, you know, let's
let's see what it is. The message. One of the
messages that my son liked so much that Andrew Tate
was saying was that that in order to really it
was basically that message of you know, learn to control
(25:10):
what you can control, and not to agonize and worry
over what you can't control. I had said that to
him in the car ride to school a month earlier
because he was freaking out about something, and that was
exactly what i'd said. And he said to me, you
just said that to me, you know, a little while ago.
And I say, you're absolutely right, that is a really
positive message, and so and so I said to him,
(25:31):
let's let's go on and find a few other messages,
which I thought was probably a good thing for both
of us. And there were some really positive messages, you know.
When I looked into some of the TikTok videos he
was posting, there was some messages we absolutely would want
our sons to hear. So that's what I'm saying when
I say it's complicated. You know. Part of it is
(25:53):
that it's a way to build their platform, There's no
question about it. Right. It's kind of like a gateway drug, right.
It's a way of getting them in and then you
can get them in deeper, and that's where the really
insidious stuff happens when they get in deeper. But initially,
some of the messages are the kind of messages that
more boys do really do need to hear. So it's
a question of how do we encourage the positive messages,
(26:16):
but then teach them to draw the line and have
the and learn the boundaries. You know. Personally, what I
think is better is how do we have these conversations
ourselves with our sons about these positive messages rather than
them feeling like they need to go on there to
hear what we should be talking with them about.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
And I think that's you know, what we'd love to
hear from you now. You know, how as parents do
we step up and help our sounds form those healthy
identities that maybe you know and fill some of these
gaps and what can we do to you know, make
sure that we're raising healthy young men?
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Absolutely, And that really is the question, right That's really it.
That's the crux of it right there. So one of
the things that I think is important to remember just
at the base level, and a lot of us, a
lot of us will find this hard to believe. Boys
actually are pretty are very relational. And what I mean
by that is that a lot of boys will do
(27:17):
whatever you want when they feel like they can trust
you and you're on their side, which means you're validating
who they are. I can tell you that as somebody
who taught middle school, you know, in a previous lifetime.
One of the things I learned that when I could
get the boys, especially to know that I was you
(27:37):
know that that you know, I was basically on their side.
And that didn't mean, of course, for everything. It just
meant that, you know, that I cared about who they
were as people, not just as my students. They would
start to jump through any hoop I put in front
of them, you know, no questions asked, for better or
for worse. But that's one of the things I learned,
is that and and studies are showing more and more
(28:00):
that the way that we get boys to really feel
more connected, and that is a really important thing that
boys need is to feel connected. Is we need to
get them to feel that they can trust us. And
there's lots of ways, of course, as parents, that we
need to do that. One of the ways, just as
an example, is when we have conversations with boys and
they say things that can be cringe worthy. It's really
(28:23):
important that the way that we respond is not the
way that we would like to respond, because boys pay
attention to body language, but they really do when it
comes to things that matter to them, they pay attention
to body language, they pay attention to tone, because boys
are a lot more sensitive than we really want to admit,
or then we really know they are super sensitive boys.
(28:46):
There was a great study would show that when it
came to romantic rejection that boys and young men actually
held on to those emotions of rejection longer than did
the girls and young women. Boys are there, and there's
been research that shows that or every bit men too,
as you know, having the same degree of emotions as
(29:06):
as women and girls do. Of course, what we all
know the problem is that they don't embrace that. They
don't really they don't really learn how to how to
access those. So it's really important that when we have
conversations with our sons, how we how we show up
for them really does matter. It's really important that you
know that our heads don't explode in front of them.
(29:27):
You know that we're not rolling our eyes, that we're
not showing the exasperation, because because when boys think they
might be saying something that might be met with rejection,
they are locked in and paying close attention to the
person who's facing them. So how we respond to them
is super important, and it's really important to lead with
curiosity as opposed to leading with any kind of accusation
(29:49):
or judgment. It's super important to lead with curiosity. Huh,
that's interesting that point that you just made. Why do
you feel this way about that? I mean that right there,
if nothing else, if we just stick with that one,
that right there is a great one to lead with.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
I think I think it was you that said, you know,
just remember when you are talking to them that positions
and thoughts and the expression of thoughts that changes over time.
So even if it's cringe worthy in that moment, there's
just a moment in time of that kid's life, and
we've got all this benefit of experience, and they actually
(30:28):
don't you know, whether they think they do all. They
don't think they do. Often they do think they do.
But so that we just sit there and listen to it,
because that position could change in three months, six months,
a year. They're going to grow up just like everybody else.
It's a moment in time.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
You're absolutely right that. Yeah, you are so right about that.
And that's something I know that when we feel threatened
as parents, and we get scared and we feel vulnerable
you know, as anybody does, when they feel vulnerable, they
go to extremes. And you're absolutely right, we need to
remember that they're are far from being developed and their opinions,
as you said, are absolutely far from being far from
(31:05):
being developed as well. And so that's something else that
we also do need to take with a grain of salt.
And it's also really important that when when our sons
do get worked up about something, regardless of what it is,
it's also really important with how we meet that is
really important to them feeling trusted, trusting of us. So
(31:29):
to give you an example what I mean. You know,
when our sons get really worked up, a lot of
parents will say, okay, you know, just calm down, you know,
just calm down, or you're making a really big deal
about this. Man. If you want to shut your son down,
say those two things that will do it then and
in the future.
Speaker 2 (31:48):
To be honest, yes I know.
Speaker 3 (31:49):
I mean if you want to shut me me too,
If you want to shut me down, say those things
to me and I will not come back to you again.
You can imagine what it does to these vulnerable, you know,
very sensitive boys. So's it's really important that when we
see them getting worked up. And sometimes, you know, whether
we want to admit it or not, a lot of
us really do who have sons, especially as they start
(32:12):
to get older, you know, teen years and a little
bit older, a lot of us really do get a
little bit uncomfortable when they get really for instance, when
they start to cry, when they get really emotive in
ways that we think, well, you know, I don't want
my son reacting this way, and that maybe consciously, but subconsciously,
some of us respond that way. And boys do pick
up on that because they feel so vulnerable and they
(32:32):
don't want to feel vulnerable. And so it's really important
that we meet them when they do get upset in
ways that at the very least are just completely neutral.
Commiseration is great. I can see that you're upset, you
know what, based on what you just told me happened today,
I'd probably be upset too if it was me. I
get it. So, you know what, why don't you just
(32:54):
you know, take some time and just know that my
door is open if and when you want to talk
about this. That is something that a lot of boys
never get that, you know, just just the commiseration and
the safe space to know that it's okay to feel
what you're feeling without any judgment. That's something right off
the bat they don't get and so and also keeping
that door open. There was the head of a school
(33:17):
that I was doing some workout in Canada. He told
me this amazing story. He said, you know when my sons,
who are in their twenties now, were younger, and they
both at different times, would come to me at the
end of a day and I was exhausted. He said
he'd be like eleven o'clock at night. They came to
and wanting to talk and he said, he said, look,
I'm exhausting. Can we talk about this tomorrow? And he said,
you know what, this happened with both of them separately.
(33:40):
They never came back to me. He said, They'll go
to their mother. And he's the head of a boys
school and he said, I'm still trying to get them
to talk with me. And they're in their twenties now.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
You're listening to the little things in I guess on
the podcast today as yous academic and author Andrew Rayner
talking about raising boys. We're going to be back after
this break. Andrew, you're giving us all these really great
tips for how we make sure that we're open and
communicating with our sons. I've read a lot of books
(34:14):
on raising boys, and the one thing that they have
in common is the importance in the teen years of
the role of fathers or male mentors in boys' life.
Should they be leading the charge with some of these
conversations that you know, we should be having.
Speaker 3 (34:32):
Ideally, yes, ideally yes, now now, I promise I'll come
back to that. But I think it's also super important
to point out, as we all know, there are more
and more single moms out there. Right there's single dads too,
but there's a lot of single moms, and so it's
really important that they know that they can and do
(34:52):
and always will play an incredibly important role in their sons' lives.
Because I personally don't believe it means, you know that
single moms, for instance, have to find men that can
have conversations like this with their sons, because I because
I think a mother's perspective is incredibly important to a
son having, you know, at all stages of their lives,
(35:14):
all stages. Now that said, going back to that point,
I do think it's important for fathers to have more
of a growth a lot of them, not all of them,
but for a lot of them to have more of
a growth mindset than they do. One of the things
that when I came over to New Zealand and I
was there a while back, and afterwards there'd be Q
and A and I would hear constantly from lives and
(35:37):
even some some some fathers, I'm saying, you know, you know,
it's like this when when my son and my and
my husband are talking, they're constantly at each other's throats
like that. That is such a common dynamic and it
doesn't have to be that way. This isn't biological, you know,
to to sit there and to say that you know,
oh well, it's just you know, there's something edible about it,
(35:59):
or it's evolution tionary. Personally, I don't buy into that,
because I think it's absolutely possible for fathers and sons
to have far more integrated, supportive relationships than that. I
think what it really requires is that. And I'm not
putting the onus squarely on fathers, because I think some
mothers could benefit from this too. But I think a
lot of dads really do need to understand that who
(36:22):
boys are today is different than who we were in
previous generations. There's no question about it, and I can
easily unpack that. In addition to that, boys needs have
changed because of that, they have dramatically changed, and that's
a whole other conversation. Again, I'm happy to unpack, and
it takes time, but fathers need to understand who boys
are today and what they need, and it is similar
(36:44):
and different from what we needed in the past. And
as such, it's very important for fathers to understand who
boys are today as they approach them, because at the
very least, if fathers can do some of the things
we were talking about about, you know, meeting boys emotional
reactions with no judgment and no ridicule, at the very least,
(37:06):
just giving them the space to do it and acknowledging
and saying, I see you're upset. I get it. God
knows there been times I felt this way too, for
things like this, I'm here if you need me. That doesn't,
that doesn't, that doesn't require a lot, And and it
also just letting sons know you know that that again,
that door is open if and when you're ready to talk.
(37:28):
What it all boils down to is that if fathers
could learn that even if they don't want to really
have these kinds of conversations, you know, with their wives
or with other men, that's fine, that's on that's their
that's their prerogative. But the but boys do need this.
Boys are not boy There is a dearth of resiliency
(37:49):
very much in boys today. And and you know this
is across the board, from education, even in the workplace,
their mental health, the ways that they're dealing with rejection,
and they are horrible, horrible degrees of loneliness and alienation.
These all speak to endure the resiliency, and so it's
really important to understand that when you're approaching your son
(38:13):
and how you deal with them. And I absolutely think
that if fathers could just learn to meet signs more
of where they are, understanding where they are, and meet
them where they are and now don't make it about you,
I think that would go a long way in building
a lot more trust with Signs and they'd be more
open to hearing the kind of messages that we want
to we want them to hear.
Speaker 2 (38:32):
It's really hard, and it's an absolute can of words,
but if you do go back to at leastence, but
just that moment and think about the experiences that that
father had and the way he was raised in the
generation before him. I mean, cracky, But I think if
you if you take it from where you said, which
is this isn't about you, so you know, maybe you
(38:55):
do need to go work on some stuff that from
your own childhood or whatever, but then try and bring
that positive role model into the now for your child,
because you know, we don't know we're walking around. We
don't know what this dad's childhood looked like and how
he can He's like, I don't understand because no one
(39:16):
helped me when I was in a pickle when I
was sixteen.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
But I think it also comes back to what you
were saying, Andrew, is that our children are growing up
in a different environment than we did, or that any
other generation ever has. And I wonder if we can
unpack that for a moment, because of course, the one
major difference is they're living in a digital world. They're
living with the social media and the YouTube and things
like that. I mean, is that playing a part in
(39:39):
why these children are different today?
Speaker 3 (39:43):
Absolutely? Yeah, as we were talking about earlier, we all
know about social we all know about pure pressure, and
you know, all of that. We all grew up with it.
No one is can sidestep that. What's different today is
that there is this ethos younger people about this need
to always be connected. And one of the things there
(40:05):
was a course I used to teach at my university
and I called it I Think leading Lives that Matter.
And one of the things I would always ask students
is what is the thing that you're most afraid of?
And regardless of gender identity, they always would say feeling
like I'm feeling like I'm not connected to my friends,
feeling like I'm all alone on that bubble. The thing
(40:25):
that that motivates and and enervates them the most is
the feeling of of being apart from the crowd and
the you know, they want to be a part of
never apart from the crowd. And so that means whether
it's listening constantly listening to music or you know constantly
you know, watching the right kinds of shows that that
(40:47):
that the people that they respected mayor watching everything that
they consume in pop culture is about feel feeling like
they're going to be connected because they're going to go
back on to social media and see people talking about it.
So there there is a a in we can't even
fathom the degree of peer pressure to be connected if
we didn't grow up with it. It's just it's off
(41:08):
the charts. That is what motivates them and as I said,
enervates them. The other thing, too, is that a lot
of the values that are being taught in schools today
at a very young age are very much social emotional
learning values, which personally I think are great. So a
lot of kids are being taught and being expected at
(41:31):
a young age to learn greater self awareness, to learn
how to be a little bit more empathetic, to learn
how to collaborate, to learn how to be better communicators. Now,
all the things I just mentioned are kind of hallmarks
of sel education and you need them now, not just
in the classroom, but in the workplace and everything I
(41:54):
just mentioned. Whether it's biological or through socialization. We know
that a lot of girls in young in are better
at developing these skills than a lot of boys and
young men. So it doesn't matter really the why. The
important thing is that we're still boys are being expected
and they understand that they need that they need to
have these skills, but a lot of them are still
(42:15):
at a deficit with learning how to master them. I'm
not saying all boys, I'm saying a lot of boys.
And so that's another thing that most of us didn't
grow up with. Most of us didn't grow up and
you know, in schools with these expectations of that, you know,
even if you don't really know how to practice empathy,
you need to at least understand that that you know,
we're putting that pressure on You're not not pressure in
(42:36):
a bad way. The expectation that you need to understand
this is how you need to behave. So there's a
lot of values that that ultimately can be really good
that that are being taught at younger and younger ages,
and that's not something that we grew up with. And
so there's this kind of, you know, for a lot
of boys and young men, there's a kind of you know,
(42:58):
their arms are being pulled in different directions. On the
one hand, they're being told to be all these things
at a very young age, and they're getting these messages
that they should be this way because it's required in
school settings, and thank god, it's required a more workplace
settings too. But on the other hand, a lot of
the messages they're getting on social media from influencers are
pulling them in the other direction. Do not encourage a
(43:20):
lot of this. And so the point is is that,
you know, when we're talking about boys, it's really important
to understand that they're getting yanked in two completely different
directions and they don't know whether how to make heads
or tails a lot of it. And so we absolutely
are growing up, you know, in a very different era.
And you know, one of the things that this is
(43:42):
manifesting through are the spikes we're seeing in mental health
problems across the board for everybody of these generations, right anxiety, depression,
chronic stress, and then of course we know about the loneliness.
So you know, these are things that it's not just
a matter of that we're more aware of them now.
You know, we grew up and we knew our friends
(44:03):
and we knew ourselves, and there was not this this chronic,
chronic you know, systemic degree of mental health issues that
were so that everybody was struggling with.
Speaker 2 (44:14):
I think the term knowing yourself is the key one
there for me is I totally see it when you
described it that way. I can see how because it's
really easy even as an adult I've had to recently
stop listening to political podcasts, especially coming out of the US,
(44:34):
because because I cannot. I'm just going, I'm just it's
too much. And I think you can see because they're very,
very clever at it influences, giving you these positive throwing
out the positive messages, and then sucking you in with
the negative. And I can only imagine what that's like
as a thirteen, fourteen, fifteen year old kid. You know,
(44:55):
I think the girls are exposed to it too, but
I think the more negative thing is coming in for boys.
Speaker 3 (45:01):
It is it is the analogy that I use, the
metaphor that I use is is, you know, we've done
a great job of saying to girls, you can pick
anything you want in the wardrobe, you can in any
combination you want, and and and that is a great thing.
That is a wonderful thing that we've said to them.
You can wear anything on the rack that you want
and and you're good to go. We we'll support you
(45:21):
with that. We don't do that with boys. You know,
we're still basically saying to them metaphorically speaking, although quite
literally too, you need to wear black, you need to
wear navy blue, you need to wear gray. You need
to wear brown. You know, we're you know, and and
and this is, by the way, is the type of
clothing you should be wearing metaphorically and literally. That's what
we're doing still with boys. And so, you know, we
(45:42):
have these expectations for boys, but we're also still telling
them there's a limited way that you should be thinking
of yourself, you know, as as a boy and as
an ascending man. And so they're getting, you know, all
these conflicting things. And and one of the things that's
that I think is that is so helpful for girls,
that is so important is that they have what I
(46:04):
call emotional safety nets. You know, they learn at a
young age to develop these. It is the extremely rare
group of boys that create this and maintain it. Because
every time I go into schools and I'll talk to
the boys and I did this in New Zealand, and
I'll say to them, you know, when girls have problems,
how do you what do you? Where do you think
(46:24):
they go for support? And so many of the boys
could say, oh, they you know, they they might go
to their mom or they or they've got friends. Absolutely good,
where do you guys go? Again? Crickets? Because so few boys.
Most boys do not have this, and and and they
and they don't know how to create it. They don't
(46:46):
know how to maintain it, and they don't know how
to repair it. And that's true of all of their relationships.
Boys really need to be taught how to create relationships,
regardless of the kind we're talking about, how to maintain them,
and then how to repair them, which is still not
something that we really really do a great job up
with boys because we expect through as most as they'll
pick it up boiler alert, they do.
Speaker 1 (47:07):
Yeah, I probably have presumed that a little bit along
the way, Andrew, Look what in summary, what would you
love to see come out of this whole adolescence Hoopler.
Speaker 3 (47:20):
What I would love to see is for us to
be having conversations with our sons that feel safe to them,
that feel supportive for them, and where we're creating these
spaces where they feel that it's it's safe to do
(47:42):
this and I can say what I want to say
and know that there won't be retribution, because I really
do believe that, you know, this really is where we
really really need to kind of, you know, get our
boys back, is by engaging with them and having these
kinds of connections that a lot of us really don't
have with them, at least they don't think so, and
(48:04):
so it's it's really important, you know. I really hope
that at the very least what will happen as a
result of adolescence and all the conversations that are you know,
that are happening for this, that we'll meet boys more
where they are and not where we are, because we
have so many expectations that we want boys to meet
us where we because we think, you know, we are
(48:25):
in the rut and we know what's best all the time,
and that it's not possible that boys can know in
any state in their lives what's best for them. Boys
really need us to meet them where they are right
now if we if we really want to pull them
back from this and have the kind of conversations that
they will have, and they will meet there if they
feel that we value what they have to say and
(48:48):
that they can trust us with what they're sharing with us.
Speaker 2 (48:51):
So it's it's all uss for sure, you know, because
everybody else is trying to get a piece of them too.
So thank you so much, Andrew. That has been so helpful.
I hope everybody's gotten, you know, one or two tips
out of that.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
At least I've got a few little things I need
to think about, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
So I'm really I'm very grateful, thank you for having
me on. I really have just loved the conversation so much.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (49:22):
I don't know, I almost don't know where to start.
There's so many things I want to say about that
conversation with I enjoyed it a lot more than I
thought I would, if I'm honest.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
Why is that?
Speaker 1 (49:31):
Because why did you think you wouldn't enjoy it?
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Because I was afraid that it was I'm stuck in
that zero sum game of what has been good for
women doesn't have to be bad for men. But actually,
what he reminded me about was just meeting boys where
they are. Take that whole thing out of it. It
doesn't really matter, you know.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
So it comes back to the whole when he was
talking about boys looking for their identity and not feeling
safe to speak out and do all these things. Were
you starting, Were you thinking to yourself, We'll hang on
a minute. Women have been battling that for a long time,
and then they've finally we've sort of got to a
place you sort of suggesting that, yes, that we were
(50:13):
talking about with the zero sum, right, that it's not
one or the other. One gender doesn't have to have
dominance or anything or doesn't have to you know, we
can all get to better places, right, Okay, Yeah, No.
Because he was so strong and all of that, I
actually stopped thinking about women and girls all together for
a moment there and just saying, actually, where does the
(50:35):
attention need to go? Yes, And I'm not saying no
attention on women. I'm saying right now, some of our
boys are in trouble. Yes, And I just to go
to explain to put that into context a little bit.
You and I have spoken to a lot of teenagers
about that show, and the young the teenage girls. There's
(50:56):
not a lot of empathy there from them because they're
sort of going, you know what, I've had to put
up with this, this is and this, and that's probably
driven us a little bit to get to that zero
some sort of situation we're in. But you're right, it's
kind of like put that aside. I thought it was
really great. I know a lot of people don't want
to have the conversation that our children are growing up
(51:18):
in a different a growing up in a different environment
or a different to how they've been in the past.
It was interesting is Reclined It a podcast with John
hit and he wrote a book called The Anxious Generation,
How the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic
(51:40):
of mental illness, and he says that our kids are
the least flourishing generation we know. And that's pretty much
what Andrew was saying there, that you know, this reliant
the impact of social media and YouTube and living our
lives online has created this loneliness and this lack of
resilience because it's when we're kids, we wire our brains
(52:01):
with all sorts of different situations and environments in order
to become functioning adults, right, and we're not getting that.
Speaker 2 (52:08):
The irony of the world seeming bigger to them, but
actually it's smaller, Yeah, because it's zeroing in on a screen, but.
Speaker 1 (52:17):
It's I spoke about the World Happiness Report. I don't
know if you read that put out by University of Oxford.
They said that nineteen percent of young adults across the
world reported in twenty twenty three that they have no
one they could count on for social support. Now you
might think to yourself, nineteen percent, that's not too bad,
but that is a thirty nine percent increase compared to
(52:38):
two thousand and.
Speaker 2 (52:39):
Six and that's not that long ago. So that is that.
Speaker 1 (52:43):
Impact of social media and being on our phones. And
we talked about this, you know, social connection as Andrew
was saying that social connection is such a key component
to happiness. And my daughter's made this comment. She said
to me, she said, people go online because they're only
and then they get lonelier. And it's not just boys,
it's girls as well.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Oh my god. That is a bit of a sad thing,
isn't it. But it's true. And I spoke to a
male educated before we did this today and he said
in an all boys school, and he said, look, Louise,
one of the biggest jobs we have is to make
these young men feel safe and connected. And he'll do
like maybe a hundred bro hugs a day, safe and
(53:24):
cared about and cared about. Yep.
Speaker 1 (53:26):
Yeah, And actually that's that's our basic job as parents
is to let it make sure that our children know
that they're loved and we care about them, and that
they're safe. And you know, once again Andrew was talking
about all those expectations that we put on our children
as well, and there's like a different kind of expectations.
(53:48):
There's lots of different expectations we put but it's just
time to step back now. I found that really helpful.
I mean, I sort of tend to think that I
do a lot of the things that Andrew was mean
to do, but there's always a couple of other things
like I, oh, probably not very good at doing that.
Speaker 2 (54:02):
And even if you and I were doing everything perfectly
in our home, which I think we both admit that
we aren't all the time, Heck no, we're still our
children still have to function in the wider world, right,
so we still have to be aware of it. Even
if we say, oh, no, I have pretty good conversation
with my kids, and my kids will tell me you
think you know that, sibling, but I can tell you
(54:23):
a few things. So definitely there's always roun for improvement.
Speaker 1 (54:27):
Thanks for joining us on our new Zealand Heeri podcast series,
The Little Things. We hope you shared this podcast with
the women in your life so we can all help
our boys grow into respectful young.
Speaker 2 (54:37):
Men and share it with the men in your life.
You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts. And for more on this and other topics,
heat to endzed Herald dot co dot
Speaker 1 (54:48):
Nz and we'll catch you next time on the Little
Things
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