August 16, 2024 • 45 mins
It’s a topic no one ever wants to think about, but people are being urged to plan early for their parent’s care as they got older. New Zealand’s population is continuing to grow - Stats NZ estimated in 2022 that the number of people 65 years or older would hit 1 million by 2028, which would equate to 1 in 5 New Zealanders.
With more of us getting older and living for longer, it also means more families working out how to care for their loved ones. This week, Francesca and Louise are joined by Esther Perriam, director of the Eldernet Group, to find out all the information you need for caring for loved ones as they get older.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hello, and welcome to this new Zealand Heral podcast, The
Little Things, the podcast looking at the little things that
can make a positive impact on our day to day life.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Louis Eri and I'm Francesca Rudkin. Great to have
you with us. Luise and I created this podcast a
few seasons ago to deal with all the noise that
comes at women from influencers and marketers telling us how
we're supposed to be living our lives. In this podcast,
we ditched the fads for fact and talk to experts
who are at the top of their fields. Now, this
episode of The Little Things is one that we've been
(00:36):
meaning to do, actually for the last couple of seasons.
A lot of you have been asking for it. How
do we care and make decisions about the welfare of
our aging parents.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I've been watching friends go through the process of finding
a home for their parents who needed some advanced medical care,
and it surprised me how complicated it all seemed, all
the different care options they had to learn about very quickly.
A dear neighbor lives alone with little family remaining in
his men where is declining? What happens next? I volunteered
for time with my dog visiting an alder care ward
(01:05):
and the most common worried people had after a fall
or a break was that they could not return to
their home and remained independent. That raised a lot of
questions for me. Yeah, and a lot of it comes
down to timing. I think one of the most difficult
decisions is around timing. When is the right time to downsize,
to move into a home, to ask your parents to
stop driving? How do we get that balance right of
respecting our parents and their wants and making the right
(01:28):
decision for their needs. Days are long and the years
are short, as they say, and we're raising our own children.
We turn around and realize our beloved parents to have
aged two. Sometimes they remain independent, sometimes they don't. Sudden
or chronic medical events can complicate things, so planning and
understanding our options can help.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So we're thrilled to have esther Perium, director of the
Aldernette Group, with us to help us get our heads
around planning and caring for our parents or any other
elderly member of the family. Can we use the word
elderly joining us now is still welcome?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Lastly, can I use the word elderly? Use I don't
want to use old.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Well, I think you probably have to ask the person
that you're talking with, you know, how do they prefer
to be abreast? I work in this world and I
use a whole range of terms older person, older folk,
older people, adults. Sometimes the old there is if we're
talking about it in the medical sort of sense, there
is classifications about what is old, so in a medical
(02:24):
sense over sixty five, believe it or not.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
And then they've got a really cool term called the
old old.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Which I heard that one. I love it? What's old old?
How old do you have to be?
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Five? Right?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I like that? And writing that one down? I love it? Hey, Ester,
can we first start off with look, there's always been
a sandwich generation. There always is a sandwich generation. Have
we got better at dealing with the challenges, particularly when
it comes to looking after our old old and our elderly?
You know, we are we getting better at it?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
I don't know, to be honest, I think we are
perhaps a lot of more cognizant of it. We are
thinking about it a little more. But there's been massive
changes in how we live as a society, so you know,
we don't have to go too far back to find
people who used to live with their grandparents, and so
there was you know, situations where people were there was
co caring going on, older people perhaps caring for younger
(03:18):
people in the funo and still in some communities that's
really prevalent, but there's working parents, which means that often
there's not always a parent at home that middle person.
So there's definitely challenges now with the economic climate that
we live in. Most homes required to adults to be
working to fund rental, mortgage and discover basic living costs.
(03:40):
So that does mean that there's probably at the moment
a lot more stress on those middle people to do
the work at both ends to support their older people
and to support.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Their younger people.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
And of course we're having babies later, which means you've
often got menopause and puberty in a household at once
as well as parents to look after. And people are
living longer as well.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah, definitely we do see I mean, I can remember,
you know, it was a bit strange that people have
great grandparents, but now because we are living longer, we're
seeing more great grandparents.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Definitely, it's not unusual.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
For women in their forties and men much later than
that to be having children. So yeah, there's definitely that
sandwich is getting tighter and tighter.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
The irony of that is, I feel like my children
never going to have children. I mean they're still young,
but you know, if they want children, they'll have them later.
I'll be old old. You won't be old old. So
I was thinking about this actually, about the sandwich thing.
We might feel like they meat the sandwich now, but
(04:47):
we've got to remember that we're going to be the
bread at some point too. So we need to know
about this for our own planning as well as helping
helping our parents and grandparents or oldly neighbors or whoever
it is that you're looking after. So this is a
really important conversation, I think, and we're really looking forward
to diving right into it.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Is it important that each member of the family plays
a part in caring for aging parents, that it doesn't
just fall to one child.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Oh, this is the problem that's just universal, as if
I A. We cared for my grandmother until she died
at home. But what people are able to bring to
the table is really different, Like we're not all coming
from the same starting place. You might have members of
families where there is a non working adult who can
come and help. There are so many people spread across
(05:38):
the grot globe now, so that's a real big issue
for some families that perhaps the person who might be
seen as the eldest and the most reliable is actually
somewhere else in another country entirely. You might have issues
with children, some children still living at home due to
their life circumstances. There's just yeah, I don't think everybody.
In an ideal world, we'd all have the same tools
(06:00):
and skills and be able to share equally in that caring.
But the reality of it is we're not starting from
nobody starts from the same place.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Should you have that discussion in a family before you
think you need to about that kind of thing, or
will organically or does it just end up in a
big fight?
Speaker 4 (06:15):
I think that you should talk about it.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
And one of the big you know, one of the
big sayings in health is nothing about me without me.
So if you're going to have that discussion, have it
with your older folk in the room as well, because
they may not want to be caredful at home by you.
They may have you know, they may think, oh no,
I don't want my children performing personal cares for me.
It may be just that they have some, not a version,
(06:38):
just a desire to have some. They much sets dignity
to not have to share that, and they need to
be aware of how much people can give as well.
Sometimes it can be really disappointing for a family to
realize that they can't give as much as they'd like,
or they can't be as present.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
As they like.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
And aging and needing support is really really variable. Some
people have a really really good later life and then
have a sudden decline and need to support for only
a short amount of time. Other people, especially if it's
something wi perhaps some of the dimentias, will have a
very long decline, which might mean that you know, you
might not be supporting someone for six weeks to die,
(07:17):
you might be supporting someone for.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Six years to age in place and then die as well.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
So there's messes of It's just every case is so unique.
But definitely I agree have the talk early, have it
with all of the people who are concerned, but then
don't feel that you should pressure people to give more
than they're prepared to give, because bad caregivers are unwilling caregivers,
and you do not want someone unwilling to be.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Caring for your person. You're a special person.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
At the latter stages of their life, they're not going
to be loving and careful when they're doing transfers from
beds into chairs. You know they'll be rough, not on purpose,
but just you know, their heart's not in it, so
they're feeling obliged.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
People shouldn't feel obliged.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
They should give care willingly and lovingly, because that's the.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Best kind of care.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I mean, it can take a real emotional toll on
a family, can't it. And you know, as you mentioned,
there's nothing you can do about the fact. If you
know you've got one sibling who happens to live in
the city where a parent is and everybody else is
spread around the globe, that's just the reality of it.
I had a good friend who was the hands on
daily care of for a parent as well as working,
and she had to sort of deal with siblings offering
(08:26):
advice and criticism from afar and she kind of knew
that was coming from a place of guilt maybe on
their behalf, that they weren't there and that she was
doing that work. But it wasn't hugely helpful, So you
do have to. You do all have to kind of
accept situations and the realities and then just keep asking
that question. I suppose how can I help? What do
you need?
Speaker 4 (08:46):
You know?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
And for someone who's being like the really, if there
is one or two people who are being the very
active gegier perhaps living in with that person, I think
that if it is for a longish period, find I
should definitely have conversation about how if they can't be
there physically, how they can Pacts can contribute financially if
they're possible, if they're able to. So there are a
(09:08):
myriads of home support agencies and caregivers who pacts can
come in and do a couple of overnights so that
someone can get a full night's rest. Most of us
who have been parents will know how torturous sleep deprivation is.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Babies grow out of it.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Older people who are waking often during the night are
not going to grow out of it. So you know,
it's a really long time to have undisturbed sleep. Look
at things like, are the agencies that you can pay
to come in? Perhaps you can fly home for a
week and give your boosiners doing the keregiving a complete break,
(09:43):
seend them on a holiday, put them in a hotel
room somewhere, and try and share the burden as much
as possible, because that especially if you've got one or
two main caregivers, they need as much support as the
person they're care and for to ensure that they can
continue their care and journey, because if they fall over
will come at a cost.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
So if we take it outside of the family just
for a moment and look into the types of care
as you've started to discuss there, how would you know
if it is time to start talking about a move
or in home care.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Yeah, So in New Zealand we've got a fairly good
system that allows us to assess whether people require it
at any stage. You can just decide that you would
privately like to fund for our services in the home,
and you can purchase those services it and lots of
people will take baby steps into that. It might be
(10:36):
using a companion driver service rather than driving themselves.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
That's just start to help you with this stuff.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
So you can do little bits you don't have to
like got hardcoret into like we're going to get a
keg over and every day and they're going to do
all this stuff you can try and see what works
for you. If you are wanting to get assistance with funding,
then you need to go for an assessment. And an
assessment is something that is done on a package called INTERRYE,
(11:04):
which is as a worldwide tool to assess people's abilities.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
And if an older person.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Is needing assistance, that will probably strike the tall a
number of times throughout their aging journey.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
So the first time might be that they go and.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
See their GP and the GP says, oh, you don't
look like you're managing so well, we're going to get
you an assessment and see if we can get you
some home help something like that. That first assessment will
be fairly low key, but it still can take quite
a lot of time.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
It could be up to an hour in length.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
It will probably happen at the person's home, and there
will be a specialist, a special assessor who comes out
and sees them, and INTERI is done on a computer
and they ask a whole heap of question, some which
seem completely unrelated.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
To what's going on.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
They'll ask you, you know, who popped in for a
cup of coffee last and did you make it or
did they make it? And now let's go for a
little walk down to the letterbox, and all of these
things are pulling to get a picture for the assessor
who's answering questions in their computer that says what kind
of care and support this person might be because, as
you know, we try to be more holistic in assessing
(12:11):
this stuff now, so it's not just about is this
person falling over?
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Often they're also looking at is their issues.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Of loneliness, isolation, mobility, nutrition, All of these things are
really important and create a whole picture. So you might
at the end of an assessment be told, look, we
think that if you have a little bit of physio,
you don't actually need any home help because if we
can get your moving again better, that's going to help.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And other stuff.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Times they might say, look, we think that you probably
need someone to come in three times a week to
help you with showering so that you're feeling better about
how you're presenting yourself and things like that. So that
TERI assessment tool goes all the way through right into
residential care and is used in residential care if you
need to change from say a resk time level of
care to a hospital level of care. So you might
(12:58):
touch that tool lots and lots of time through your journey.
If you're needing help.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
It's great that there's an evidence based tool. You know,
it's not a stab in the dark. It's actually quite and.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
It's internationally based as well. Yeah, so it's not just
New Zealand data.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
We of course the people who are looking at the
data can pull out the New Zealand specific stuff, but
it's international and it does allow for some beach tracking
as well, and in some places internationally they have what they.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Call a nude beach approach. You know, you show me yours,
I'll show you mine, and.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
They're able to look across different services and say, hey,
well you guys are doing good with this thing, and
then ask those people to share what they're doing so
everyone can bring down markers of poor care or support.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
So as to as you go through that assessment process
and you might be deemed, you know you might, they
might go right, Okay, you need a bit of help here,
bit of help here, we need to get you into
a rest home now. Things like that, if you're eligible,
is that fully funded by the state.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Or okay, so for home based support services, if you
have a community service card, yep, it's going to be
fully funded. So most older people do have a Community
Services card and their care will be funded for at
home support. When you enter residential care, then there there's
a number of assessments that have to happen. So the
first assessment is the one that we've talked about. It's
(14:14):
the needs assessment do you need care?
Speaker 4 (14:16):
That's done with the INTERR tool.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
And then there's what's called income and asset testing and
that tests who pays. So it comes as quite a
shock to most New Zealanders that you are required to
pay for your own care. The owners will initially fall
on you and the state will only pick up the
bill after they've done an assessment to see how much
you earn, but also how much you own or have
(14:39):
access to through assets that you or a trust might.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Own, and what is that benchmark?
Speaker 3 (14:44):
So it does vary depending on the living situation that
you're in. For example, if you are a single adult
living alone, the asset threshold is two hundred and eighty
four thousand.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Six hundred and thirty six dollars to be percise, it does.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Change, right, So that's sorry that was a single person.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
That's a single person who was living alone. Who needs here?
So which is most people, because usually if there is a.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Partner at home, there's usually a lot of effort from
that partner in faro to keep that person at home.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
So yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
As you you know, two hundred and eighty four thousand
dollars in change, if you own a home, you're going
to be paying for your own care, that's right. Yeah,
So there are the government has things like a residential
care loan where they will put a caveat if you
really really don't want to sell your family home, they
can put a caveat against the property and advance you
(15:41):
the money for your care.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
That's non interest bearing.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
However, on your death, that loan is immediately well on
your death or sale of that property, it's immediately repayable.
So for people who have emotional tie of their home,
it can be a really good thing. The reality of
it is very few people who to residential here are
going to come back out.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
It is usually a one way journey.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
What about access esther if you know, especially if maybe
appearent is sort of going downhill quite quickly and they're
getting assessed and yet they need to get into a
residential home. How easy is it and how quickly can
these kind of things happen.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
So assessment varies from region to region.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Although it's a part of the water, howth in z are
trying to bring everything in line. There's just more people
and more places and fewer people in other places. So
in some cases an urgent assessment might be able to
be done within a few days, but in a large
number of places a non urgent assessment will be like
six to eight weeks away.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Because we do have an aging population. This is what
concerns me. You know, it's not like we didn't know
that we're going to have a huge amount of older people.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah, So just to clarify something I'm a little bit
confused about. So what if you haven't had an assessment
or so? An assessment is a critical part of that
pathway into care. So you couldn't say have a parent
that you go don't need an assessment. They're clearly falling
over frequently, they're mostly blind and they need to go
into a home.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
It doesn't work like that. No, you can go it privately, though,
can't you?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
As far as I'm aware, there's only one facility in
the whole of New Zealand. Who will who operates outside
of the sort of health end Z system. Yes, you
can paig privately, However they will the facility will probably
want you to have an interie assessment because if they
admit you and then you run out.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
Of funds or stop paying your fund your.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Fees, they will then have to do an assessment to
determine whether or not you should be there, and if
they are, if you are below the threshold for entry.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
They can't get any government funding to cover your care.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
And I think people are hugely surprised at how frail
and unwell people have to be before they enter residential care.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
It's a high barrier.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Most people will be struggling to walk, so they won't
be very steady on their feet, probably if not singlely
or doubly incontinent.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
They'll have some issues around toileting.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
They'll probably have some level of cognitive impairment, they may
need to be eating a modified diet. So there's a
lot like people have to be very very unwell before
they're in here.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
That's good for families to know, because I think a
lot of the time you suddenly look at them and go, gosh,
we need some help, and to have a bit of
an understanding that yeah, that might be a little bit
there to reach than you think is good to know.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I do know some older people who have kind of
made the leap and said, look, I'm not going to
wait for that, you know, early seventies, and I'm going
to sell my home and buy a good apartment in
a retirement, yeah, retirement village, and then they know that
village has the progressive care should they need it.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Villages are for the people that they're great for. They
are super great.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
They only offer accommodation though, of fourteen percent of older
New Zealanders, so that most older News Islanders will not
live in a retirement village, and for many of them
it's because they can't afford it. It is an interesting
sort of financial situation in that it's a completely different
model to the model on the outside world. Very rarely
(19:24):
is their capital gains involved. The Retungkent village model. It
focuses more on rather than building assets. It's an opportunity
to use some of those assets to pay for a lifestyle,
and it is for those people who love it, a
really good lifestyle. As you said, there's lots of support,
community connections, less worries about housing, safety and security, there's
all that stuff.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
So for some people it's a really great option.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
There is, however, a slight issue that whilst you might
have priority entry into a key facility, if the facility
is full, they simply can't tack you.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
It's of no room at the inn sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
The research has shown that there's not a lot of
people who have to go off site for care. But
I think you touched on it earlier when you said
that sometimes things can happen really quickly, and that does
like if people have a massive stroke or something like that,
that can massively. That can mean within days you go
from fully independent to needing care. And in those situations,
you might have time to wait for a care bed
(20:22):
to become available with in a retirement village, and you
might need to go somewhere else. But you can always
ask to have your name put on a waiting list.
You can negotiate with the person that you have to
go to in the interim to have a reduced period
of notice when you need to leave. But you might
find that you need to pay for care fees at
two facilities for a little period.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I was just thinking that, yeah, yeah, it's a.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
Bit like flatting.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
You know you find it too flat and you're still
going to pay your old you know, you've got x
amount of notice there and you've got to get into
this one by that time.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
So if there's any crossover, you are left holding holding.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
That, yea, Esther, if there was ever a conversation to
be had that made me take my key, we savor
and retirement plans a little bit more seriously. This is
probably one of them.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, I mean getting older is actually really really expensive.
There's just a lot of stuff to consider, and it's
potentially going to get even trickier with fewer New Zealanders.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
Owning their homes.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
For example, the right of ends and souper is based
on the fact that you own a home and that
you don't have rent or a mortgage to pay, so
that can be a real challenge. And we're thinking about
living on ends and souper as well.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
You're listening to the Little Things and our guest on
the podcast today is Eldernette director Esther Perium, who was
helping us plan and care for our aging parents. Were
back shortly after this break. Esther, you mentioned at the beginning,
you know there are lots of services that can help
older people in their homes and things, and it would
(21:47):
be great. I'm sure there's a lot of people out
there who are starting to maybe get concerned about their family.
What are some of those? Obviously are the good old
meals on wheels. I can remember my mum delivering those.
My grandmother had somebody who came in and help to
bay a couple of times a week. As you mentioned,
you can get drivers. What are the kind of services
are out there that people could could look for if
(22:08):
they just want to help a parent who's staying in
their home.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Yeah, definitely heaps of things to consider. So first of
all is the space that you're living in? So is
the home a suitable place? Does it have too many stairs?
Is the bathroom easily accessible? Like a shower over a
bath is obviously quite challenging if you are not so
steady on your feet anymore, so looking at what is
the bathroom?
Speaker 4 (22:31):
Like, are there's steers in the house? All those things.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
There are housing modifications that you can undertake. There is
government funded housing modification, but the waitlist is very long,
so I would advise to go a private if you can,
so you might look to put in remps or you
can have seen those really cool little seats that sit
on the side of a steer.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Oh yeah, putting me up the stairs.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
So you know, if you want to stay in your
two story, three story house, then look at putting a
steer lift in.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
So that's sort of home stuff outside of home there.
As you said, there's so many things.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
If you're privately paying, I'd say that the sky is
almost the limit. There are home support agencies who will
take you to the movies and watch the movies with you,
and take you up for a cup of tea afterwards
and talk to you about what you.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Watch at the movies.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
They'll tack your dog to the vets, they'll take your
dog for a walk, anything that you need right through
to the As we've touched on, the really important stuff
around personal care is showering, bathing, weren't dressing, medication management,
all of that stuff as well. You've got driving services
who are spectacular and help people when they're no longer
able to drive.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
My dad was in the army briefly when he was younger.
If you were any kind of vet, you can get
gardening services. They come to your home. They get this
strapping young man he comes around, he mosa lawn, he
clips the hedge. It's amazing, and you don't have to
have been in the services for very long or you know,
have even done act of dudy overseas. I was quite
(23:50):
blown away by that. I don't know, I guess that's
funded by the Ministry of Defense.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Not sure you were saying.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I was just thinking about the quality of life and
how how how variable it is for those who have
and those who don't. You know, yes, this disky is
a limit if money is not an issue, but if
you've been on a middle income even probably have your
career before, can we say we came along.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
You know.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
It's a bit depressing, isn't it that.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
The quality of life is so variable depending on your income.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
It's pretty I think it's a pretty hard thing for
us to swallow because I think that we and especially
the older generations, we're sort of told that the state
will care from you from cradle to grave and everything
will be fine and everything will be covered. But just
like if you look at you childcare, for example, the.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Reality of it is we live in a more.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Capitalist society now where there are more options for those
who have funds, which does result in a teared system
of care. And yeah, it is super challenging because a
lot of people see older people as a real asset
and a real valuable part of our community, and they
see that it is time for them to perhaps get
(25:04):
back some of what they've put in. And for some
older people that can be super challenging if there have
been people who have been really giving in the voluntary
sense within their community, because that was a generation of
women who stayed at home and did good charitable works
and things like that, and now they look to find
who are the people who are going to be supporting them.
(25:26):
Now it's their turn to receive, and they look around
and all the women are at work. It is a
bit of a mindset shift and quite challenging for people.
And it's probably one of the reasons why you'll hear
people in the set of saying that we need to
more highly value those who work with older people, so
that people see that careers and caregiving and nursing and
(25:48):
things like that are valued.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
They're well enumerated.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
People see them as a career pathway, not just a
job for people who perhaps don't want or can't work
somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Absolutely as well, Oh, No.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I was volunteering for a while with my dog up
in Orkland Hospital in the elder people's ward, and the
physios really struck me their gentleness, their kindness. You know,
they are trying to get these people back to being
as independent as they can be after a fall or
chronic illness or whatever, but or in operation and yeah,
(26:23):
I just was like, you.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Pay them everything, you can give them everything.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Yeah, it's a funny thing.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Just to finish off sort of the services and things. Esther,
if you decide to have a parent come and live
with you, but you are also both working in things
and you'd like to be able to try and get
a little bit of assisted help, can you still do
that or if they're living with you it does sort
of do you get asset tested. I suppose, as.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
I said before, if it's time based support services and
if the older person has a community service card that regardless. Yeah,
the investment will look at what kind of familial and
support and support they have at home. So the assessment
they might not get access to certain things because it
(27:10):
is seen that the family can provide some kind of
support and there is an increasing reliance on friends far note, neighbors,
anybody who has any contact with older people, there is
an increasing reliance on them to meet some of the
needs that older people have. You know, things like could
you ask your neighbor to take out you're really been
(27:32):
on rubbish day? Those sorts of things there will they
will ask you to call into your networks. So do
expect that there will be some expectation.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Someone I'm involved with currently going through this, we've got
a WhatsApp group between I know, it's growing all the time.
It was just a couple of neighbors. Now it's his
GP as well. Now it's a woman who gives them
susan coffee every day and she's like, he hasn't been
in for a few days, as anybody seen him. We
know first heard about it and thought I'm going to
have to do something here, and I feel guilty walking
(28:03):
past the house without dropping in. It felt like such
a big thing, And then once we just shared it,
it's just becomes kind of.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
We're all, you know, we're all in.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
It's together, and we're all just checking in and it
doesn't feel so burdensome anymore.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
It's also really important to consider the ken the person
that you're supporting can they bring something to the table
as well, So nobody loves to feel like they are
the receiver of charity or people's good intentions. It begins
to feel very burdensome on someone. So I would suggest
(28:39):
that perhaps talking with the old person about what they
can do. And it might be things like can you
text me or call me when the kids get home
from school so I know that they've got home. It
might be if I get you the ingredients for this thing,
can you make the.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Biscuits that we need for the kids lunch this week?
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Because they still have skills and knowledge and things to share.
So the more we can make it feel like a
two way relationship where they are also giving something back
for as long as possible. I mean, they're going to
get to the point probably where they can't. But tiny
little things like can you tu win the kids at home?
Can you put this for us? Can you maybe they
(29:20):
can still manage a wallybin?
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Can you take my wheely bin in and out? Those things?
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Suddenly it feels like, oh, this is a reciprocal relationship.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
But it's also purpose too. Purpose is good in.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
Life, in life, it's really important.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
So Esther, one of the difficult conversations to have with
your parents. Aside from suggesting they stop driving, the other
one is maybe talking about time to downsize or to
make that move, or to think about, you know, where
they may end up in the future and things. And
it could be quite a morbid conversation to have because
(29:54):
you don't want to kind of go right in there
and sort of take over and feel like you're controlling
them and seduce that they, you know, do the clean
out and declutter and start thinking about where they're going.
But you kind of it is quite important to try
and broach the topic because once again, things can happen
in a hurry and what people are left to deal
with can be overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Yeah, I think that one of the biggest, one of
the best ways to handle this conversation is to own
your own feelings in those conversations. So rather than saying Dad,
you need to declutter, you need to do this, you
need to do that, actually saying Dad, I like wake
at night, awake at night, and I worry. I worry
so much that when something's going to happen, Like you
(30:35):
go outside in the middle of the winter and it's
a frosty day and you slip on the steps and
you crack your head open.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
And you die under the washing line. Dad, I worry
about that.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
And if your older person hears that and says, you
know what, I don't care. My independence is more important
to me than you lying, then perhaps you.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
Can just start worrying. It's your own thing.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
If you've shared that with them and they choose to
ignore that, then as frustrating as it is.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
These people are adults. They've got a.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Ton of life experience. They've lived through a whole heap
of other things. They've got more life experience than we have,
and they're independent people, and most of them are still
making They may be crazy decisions, they may be frustrating decisions,
may be all of those things. But at what point
in our lives and we've talked, you talked earlier about
you know, we need to have these conversations because this
(31:26):
will be us one day. At what stage are we
going to let our kids take control of our lives?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
I was going to say, I'll probably have a completely
different conversation with my parents than I will let my
children have with me.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Yeah, so it's really challenging. But to own your own
feelings and to actually say this is actually.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
More about me than it is about you. But have
you considered Dad, that if you don't clean out that shed,
I'm going to have to do it when you're gone.
Can we at least stand in the doorway and you
can tell me what's important. Maybe that's a halfway point.
Maybe it's not. You have to declutter and downsize and
move out. Maybe yet's tell me what's important, Tell me
where the lookless stuff? I'm sharing my worries with you.
(32:05):
You don't care about that, Okay, Well I'll just set aside.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I think that's the single most biggest golden nugget I've
heard so far in this conversation. I'm absolutely loving that.
You know, you actually just described exactly how my grandmother died.
She went outside, she wanted to put something in the bin.
There was a bush that was bothering her. She pulled
on it. She slipped in the house slippers, fell over,
cracked her head open, and died there overnight. However, natual
(32:31):
shouldn't crack her head open, But the doctors said, look,
there wasn't anything that specifically we would say could have
killed her, except probably pneumonia. But he suggested she may
have made a choice laying there that she couldn't get
up or she wasn't going to get up, and that
was that. So in a way, I don't know whether
they said that just to make us feel better, but
that was exactly what happened. It's kind of weird.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
It's weird, weird, and it's weird because I think we
were sort of try and think of about older people.
We infantalize them a bit, we sort of make them
not as Yeah, I mean they had just the grand ups.
They do know what they'd die And yeah, I mean
I know I was a woman that the more the
(33:14):
older I get, the less IF's I give about anything
and everything.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
And I suspect that we'll continue my whole life.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Do I care about whether people care if I'm wearing
high heels into a meeting or whether I've worn makeup
or and maybe when I'm older, I will care less
and less about what my kids think about where I live.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
And I would just want to do it my way.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
And as annoying as it is, I mean, I don't
know about you, ladies, but I find a lot of freedom.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I don't care very much. I had interesting my parents
approached me recently worth part of attorneys were various different
ones over different things medical and things like that, and
I was hugely grateful that, you know, it wasn't a
conversation I had to have. They just acknowledged maybe it
was sensible to have and we kind of got on
and did those and they were very straightforward. Is that
(34:03):
something that you should be thinking about as well.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Totally, but you should be thinking about it now, not
about your older folk doing it. You should have enduring
powers of attorney in place.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
We should all have enduring powers of attorney in place.
A lot of people don't know that.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
If something happens to you where you are unable to
make decisions for yourself, and it could be a car accident,
massive stroke, all sorts of things, if somebody then needs
to start making decisions for you and you do not
have it written.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
Down, you have to go court.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
It takes bloody ages and it's freaking expensive, and it's
not sure your likelihood is something happening when increases as
you get older. But it is a conversation that we
should all be having regularly with people. Because the other
thing about in enduring powers attorney, Yes they're super important,
but it's also super important that you keep talking to
(34:49):
your attorneys about what your wishes are because they may
change all So just for listeners, really important to know
that there are two different types of attorney that you
can appoint. So one for like your care and welfare,
so that's if you need to make decisions about medical,
decisions about moving into a care home, about sort of
the care that you might receive if it was as
a result of an accident.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
And the other is for your property and stuff like that, so.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
About your house and about your bank accounts and all
those sorts of things. So you don't have to choose
this one person, you can choose two purple can be
the attorneys for property, one for health and welfare. But
then you can appoint successes, so you can say, if
something happens to Francesca, and then it goes down the
line to this.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Person and this person and this person.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
So if you're smart, you can actually set it up
so they only have to see the lawyer once rather
than having to update it.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
If one of your attorneys.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Has something happened to them, so you can do you
can make it that they have.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
To consult with other people.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
So while this person might have the final say, you
can say, yep, this person has the final say, but
they must consult with my brother and sister, my parents,
my best friend before they make a decision.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
So, wow, huge document. It's super important, he was going.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
To say, so it actually it has to go through
a lawyer. It can't just be an email that you've said,
I want this, this and this.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
No, it's a really it's a binding legal document because
the power that you are giving people, and this is
an amazing thing, is that they become you. They have
as much right as you, so when you can no
longer talk for yourself, they become your voice. So it's
really important to think about who that person is. For
a lot of people, it is a family member, but
it's sure as heat doesn't have to be. I know
(36:26):
that some of my girlfriends probably know me a little
bit better than some of my family members, So maybe
they might be somebody who I would trust to make
decisions for me, who I know would speak with, you know,
the other people that over a glass of wine I talk.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
About, Oh my god, imagine if I have this horrible
thing happen and what would I do?
Speaker 3 (36:41):
And I don't often have those level of conversations with family.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, we might be having a conversation after. Just make
this through. Yeah, if someone is thinking, oh it's quite
expensive meatpop to a lawyer to do this. Can you
just go to your Citizens and Vice Bureau? Can you
find a layer there to lawyer?
Speaker 3 (36:57):
But some lawyer's fees do very little bit, Spindy. You're
probably looking that most of them will probably able to
do if you under two grand or around two grand,
But if something dreadful happens and somebody has to go
to court, it will cost you ten grand.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
That's one way of introducing it with your parents. You
could if they haven't done it, you could say, well, hey,
I've just thought I have to do this. Why don't
you know maybe you should do it too.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
And you could make them your attorneys for something, and
then a point of success of attorneys. Right that your
mum is somebody that you want to talk to the
doctors about what kind of care you might want to
receive after a car accident, you know she might be
the best person for that. So just because people are
older doesn't mean that they can't be appointee as well.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah, cool East. When you know a little while ago,
when there was all the talk about President Biden and
whether he should step down from the US election. And
somebody texts me on the Sunday session the show I
do a news talks a b and said, it's like
trying to get your parents to stop driving, you know,
like having that conversation with them because they're so determined
that they're fine and they're okay once again. It's a
(37:58):
little bit like that question about you know, decluttering in things.
Is it up to them to make the decision?
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Gosh, this is like a super personal one for me
because recently my teenage daughter was knocked off her bike
by an older driver and we chose to go through
a community panel, to not take it to court, but
to go through.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
A community panel and resolve things that way.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
I had to look deeply into myself to where the
hat of parent and the hat of somebody who understands
this thing from an aging perspective or tries to. I'm
not an older person. I can't fully understand. But as
sure as he try and put that hat on, I
think that there comes a point where if so, in
my situation, the driver who who hit my daughter, I
(38:44):
don't think he should have been driving. It wasn't to
do with his age, he was just not a safe driver.
During the session, it was clear to me that he
wasn't quite able to follow lines of conversation and things,
you know, went great. The police also decided that he
needed to undergo an assessment before drive again. But what
I was able to offer in that situation was advice
around what you can do because there are I think
(39:09):
for older drivers, I think it's really important that they
have agency and it's horrible to have your license taken
off of you. So if you can have a choice
about when you stop driving, at least you feel a little.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
Bit empowered that you were the one who chose to stop.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
So I think that that's a conversation that you can say,
if you don't feel one hundred percent confident, hey, let's
think about stopping and what that might look like. The
things that people should consider is that if they're no
longer driving.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
They can sell their vehicle.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
How much will that realize by way of money that
they can then contribute towards things like taxis, driving services,
bus fares. There's also a lot of costs associated with driving.
So we've got the costs of warrant of fitness registrations,
petrol insurance, all the costs that come every time you
go and take your car for a warrant, when you
need a new tire.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
If you add that all up, that's actually a really
large ement.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Some people will end up with like ten or twenty
thousand dollars in the bank for their the driving fund.
Now that's a lot of taxis and buses, and it
doesn't Whilst there is a huge loss and a grief
around losing a skill like driving and the independence that
gives you.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
Things like Uber.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Are making it easier for people to get places where
they want right now. You don't forget to the bus stop.
You can call the thing right to you. It's not
like a taxi. It doesn't take forever.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
You don't know how much.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
It's going to cost all that stuff, so there are
ways around it. I think it's a horrible loss. As
a teenager, we celebrate the independence that we gain when
we get our driver's license. It's a big part of
our society. It's a terrible, terrible loss, and I think
we should allow all the people to feel the grief
that comes with that and acknowledge that it is a
grief and a loss, not just oh you shouldn't drive anymore.
(40:45):
It's probably a loss of identity if they drive other
people around, maybe they drive a friend to church, a
grandchild to sport, all of those things that's painful. So
I think it's a case by case.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
It's very, very.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Awkward, but it's a conversation with having conversation with going
into thinking about how much can we get in our
transport bank if we don't drive anymore.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
I hope your thought is okay, Esther.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
But yeh, lucky.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Yeah, it's one of those things that, like some of
the things we've talked about before, you were saying about
owning your feelings, but this one has got external implications
if if it goes badly.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
This gentlemen could have killed my daughter, pull the other way.
So I think that's you know, And that was my
message to him at the community session, was you know,
I don't want you to live with the fact that
you could kill exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yes, So look, we've just got two minutes, and I
was just wondering if we could just touch on funerals
and broaching funerals and things. A lot of times people
leave instructions so it's quite simple and clear. But of
course it's another moment in our lives where it's such
takes such an emotional toll on families, and it can
be very difficult count it. It's kind of important to
(41:53):
have a chat with your parents about what they want.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
Yeah, it is, and there are a couple of ways
that you can do this. And I'm going to go
even a step further. I'm going to even touch on dying.
That's important to talk about how and where you want
to die as well, not just how you want it done.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
Afterwards.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
There's an amazing talk called an Advanced care plan. If
you go on to my acpt all dot in ze,
it's my Advanced Care Plan or dot in zed. They
have a fabulous document that talks about how when you'd
like to die, who you'd like around you, what would
you like to happen. It also touches on funeral stuff.
It is so for some people. For some cultures, talking
(42:28):
about death is a bit like calling death. So it's
important to be culturally appropriate. And I think that within
the Pakia society.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
I don't think we should have anything to worry about.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
We should be able to go in there, get brave
and talk about the tough stuff. Once it's done. It's done,
you don't need to talk about it again. So it's
one of those things you can tack off your list.
Also worth noting that when we talk before about the
asset threshold for entering care and being quite to pay for.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
It yourself, you can prepay a funeral.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Fund of ten thousand dollars that's exempt from that asset testing.
So it's really important to think about it, not just
from the emotional point of view, but financially. There is
some advantages to planning a funeral and putting ten thousand
dollars in one of the accounts of a funeral trust.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
It's ten thousand dollars the average cost for a.
Speaker 4 (43:15):
Oh no, the average cost for a funeral is a
lot higher than that.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
That's it.
Speaker 4 (43:18):
Thousand dollars goes a long way towards her.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
You can see how unprepared we are for all this.
Speaker 3 (43:25):
We can do a whole other talk on funerals and
the cost well, I mean, geesh, we have to is over.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
Twenty thousand dollars for a funeral in years ound.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Okay, so we'll be back in season four fer we'll
be back to talk funerals, because you know that's just
giving me more too much to think about right now. Esther,
thank you so much for your time. It's been really
great to talk to you, and you've given us a
lot of very practical, valuable information. So thank you.
Speaker 4 (43:52):
Look forward to doing it again.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Well that was a lightning noise, Yeah, it was. I
think you hit the nail on the head. And Esther
made the comment as well, aging is expensive, Getting old
is expensive. And I think, as she said, a lot
of us presume that we're going to be supported and
helped later on in life. But it sounds to me
like it's harder than I thought it would be for
(44:18):
a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
I mean, I just made a huge sigh, and I
shouldn't have, because actually she's given us information that might
sound a little frightening, but actually she also given us
some really really practical advice. But you're right, it is expensive.
I mean, I'd like to think i'd have more than
nearly three hundred thousand dollars left. But is there any
points You just have to own a home, you know,
(44:42):
it doesn't matter how much case you've got in the bank.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
It also highlights, I think, is the importance of staying well,
you know, looking after yourself. Go back and listen to
every The Little Things podcast that we've done on keeping
your health and your mobility. Go back and listen to
our Mobility you know episode. Just so that we can
look after our sous for as long as we possibly
need to.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
I mean, I had a very My father's a very
active man and he put that in the bank then.
And he's eighty seven now and yip, sure things are
changing for him, but he's in the old old category.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
He's an old old Yeah, but he's doing well. And
I was well king.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
I put that down to the activity did in his midlife.
So yeah, just keep moving people, and for not only
for yourself, but so that you can help your parents.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Thanks for joining us on our New Zealand Herald podcast
series The Little Things. We hope you see this podcast
with the women in your life so we can all
be prepared and understand the options when it comes to
looking after our eting parents.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and for more on this and other topics,
head to Endzed Herald dot co dot NZ.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
We'll catch you next time on The Little Things
Hello, and welcome to this new Zealand Heral podcast, The
Little Things, the podcast looking at the little things that
can make a positive impact on our day to day life.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
I'm Louis Eri and I'm Francesca Rudkin. Great to have
you with us. Luise and I created this podcast a
few seasons ago to deal with all the noise that
comes at women from influencers and marketers telling us how
we're supposed to be living our lives. In this podcast,
we ditched the fads for fact and talk to experts
who are at the top of their fields. Now, this
episode of The Little Things is one that we've been
(00:36):
meaning to do, actually for the last couple of seasons.
A lot of you have been asking for it. How
do we care and make decisions about the welfare of
our aging parents.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
I've been watching friends go through the process of finding
a home for their parents who needed some advanced medical care,
and it surprised me how complicated it all seemed, all
the different care options they had to learn about very quickly.
A dear neighbor lives alone with little family remaining in
his men where is declining? What happens next? I volunteered
for time with my dog visiting an alder care ward
(01:05):
and the most common worried people had after a fall
or a break was that they could not return to
their home and remained independent. That raised a lot of
questions for me. Yeah, and a lot of it comes
down to timing. I think one of the most difficult
decisions is around timing. When is the right time to downsize,
to move into a home, to ask your parents to
stop driving? How do we get that balance right of
respecting our parents and their wants and making the right
(01:28):
decision for their needs. Days are long and the years
are short, as they say, and we're raising our own children.
We turn around and realize our beloved parents to have
aged two. Sometimes they remain independent, sometimes they don't. Sudden
or chronic medical events can complicate things, so planning and
understanding our options can help.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So we're thrilled to have esther Perium, director of the
Aldernette Group, with us to help us get our heads
around planning and caring for our parents or any other
elderly member of the family. Can we use the word
elderly joining us now is still welcome?
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Lastly, can I use the word elderly? Use I don't
want to use old.
Speaker 3 (02:04):
Well, I think you probably have to ask the person
that you're talking with, you know, how do they prefer
to be abreast? I work in this world and I
use a whole range of terms older person, older folk,
older people, adults. Sometimes the old there is if we're
talking about it in the medical sort of sense, there
is classifications about what is old, so in a medical
(02:24):
sense over sixty five, believe it or not.
Speaker 4 (02:27):
And then they've got a really cool term called the
old old.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Which I heard that one. I love it? What's old old?
How old do you have to be?
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Five? Right?
Speaker 2 (02:36):
I like that? And writing that one down? I love it? Hey, Ester,
can we first start off with look, there's always been
a sandwich generation. There always is a sandwich generation. Have
we got better at dealing with the challenges, particularly when
it comes to looking after our old old and our elderly?
You know, we are we getting better at it?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
I don't know, to be honest, I think we are
perhaps a lot of more cognizant of it. We are
thinking about it a little more. But there's been massive
changes in how we live as a society, so you know,
we don't have to go too far back to find
people who used to live with their grandparents, and so
there was you know, situations where people were there was
co caring going on, older people perhaps caring for younger
(03:18):
people in the funo and still in some communities that's
really prevalent, but there's working parents, which means that often
there's not always a parent at home that middle person.
So there's definitely challenges now with the economic climate that
we live in. Most homes required to adults to be
working to fund rental, mortgage and discover basic living costs.
(03:40):
So that does mean that there's probably at the moment
a lot more stress on those middle people to do
the work at both ends to support their older people
and to support.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Their younger people.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
And of course we're having babies later, which means you've
often got menopause and puberty in a household at once
as well as parents to look after. And people are
living longer as well.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
Yeah, definitely we do see I mean, I can remember,
you know, it was a bit strange that people have
great grandparents, but now because we are living longer, we're
seeing more great grandparents.
Speaker 4 (04:16):
Definitely, it's not unusual.
Speaker 3 (04:17):
For women in their forties and men much later than
that to be having children. So yeah, there's definitely that
sandwich is getting tighter and tighter.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
The irony of that is, I feel like my children
never going to have children. I mean they're still young,
but you know, if they want children, they'll have them later.
I'll be old old. You won't be old old. So
I was thinking about this actually, about the sandwich thing.
We might feel like they meat the sandwich now, but
(04:47):
we've got to remember that we're going to be the
bread at some point too. So we need to know
about this for our own planning as well as helping
helping our parents and grandparents or oldly neighbors or whoever
it is that you're looking after. So this is a
really important conversation, I think, and we're really looking forward
to diving right into it.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
Is it important that each member of the family plays
a part in caring for aging parents, that it doesn't
just fall to one child.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
Oh, this is the problem that's just universal, as if
I A. We cared for my grandmother until she died
at home. But what people are able to bring to
the table is really different, Like we're not all coming
from the same starting place. You might have members of
families where there is a non working adult who can
come and help. There are so many people spread across
(05:38):
the grot globe now, so that's a real big issue
for some families that perhaps the person who might be
seen as the eldest and the most reliable is actually
somewhere else in another country entirely. You might have issues
with children, some children still living at home due to
their life circumstances. There's just yeah, I don't think everybody.
In an ideal world, we'd all have the same tools
(06:00):
and skills and be able to share equally in that caring.
But the reality of it is we're not starting from
nobody starts from the same place.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Should you have that discussion in a family before you
think you need to about that kind of thing, or
will organically or does it just end up in a
big fight?
Speaker 4 (06:15):
I think that you should talk about it.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
And one of the big you know, one of the
big sayings in health is nothing about me without me.
So if you're going to have that discussion, have it
with your older folk in the room as well, because
they may not want to be caredful at home by you.
They may have you know, they may think, oh no,
I don't want my children performing personal cares for me.
It may be just that they have some, not a version,
(06:38):
just a desire to have some. They much sets dignity
to not have to share that, and they need to
be aware of how much people can give as well.
Sometimes it can be really disappointing for a family to
realize that they can't give as much as they'd like,
or they can't be as present.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
As they like.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
And aging and needing support is really really variable. Some
people have a really really good later life and then
have a sudden decline and need to support for only
a short amount of time. Other people, especially if it's
something wi perhaps some of the dimentias, will have a
very long decline, which might mean that you know, you
might not be supporting someone for six weeks to die,
(07:17):
you might be supporting someone for.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Six years to age in place and then die as well.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
So there's messes of It's just every case is so unique.
But definitely I agree have the talk early, have it
with all of the people who are concerned, but then
don't feel that you should pressure people to give more
than they're prepared to give, because bad caregivers are unwilling caregivers,
and you do not want someone unwilling to be.
Speaker 4 (07:45):
Caring for your person. You're a special person.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
At the latter stages of their life, they're not going
to be loving and careful when they're doing transfers from
beds into chairs. You know they'll be rough, not on purpose,
but just you know, their heart's not in it, so
they're feeling obliged.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
People shouldn't feel obliged.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
They should give care willingly and lovingly, because that's the.
Speaker 4 (08:04):
Best kind of care.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I mean, it can take a real emotional toll on
a family, can't it. And you know, as you mentioned,
there's nothing you can do about the fact. If you
know you've got one sibling who happens to live in
the city where a parent is and everybody else is
spread around the globe, that's just the reality of it.
I had a good friend who was the hands on
daily care of for a parent as well as working,
and she had to sort of deal with siblings offering
(08:26):
advice and criticism from afar and she kind of knew
that was coming from a place of guilt maybe on
their behalf, that they weren't there and that she was
doing that work. But it wasn't hugely helpful, So you
do have to. You do all have to kind of
accept situations and the realities and then just keep asking
that question. I suppose how can I help? What do
you need?
Speaker 4 (08:46):
You know?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
And for someone who's being like the really, if there
is one or two people who are being the very
active gegier perhaps living in with that person, I think
that if it is for a longish period, find I
should definitely have conversation about how if they can't be
there physically, how they can Pacts can contribute financially if
they're possible, if they're able to. So there are a
(09:08):
myriads of home support agencies and caregivers who pacts can
come in and do a couple of overnights so that
someone can get a full night's rest. Most of us
who have been parents will know how torturous sleep deprivation is.
Speaker 4 (09:21):
Babies grow out of it.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Older people who are waking often during the night are
not going to grow out of it. So you know,
it's a really long time to have undisturbed sleep. Look
at things like, are the agencies that you can pay
to come in? Perhaps you can fly home for a
week and give your boosiners doing the keregiving a complete break,
(09:43):
seend them on a holiday, put them in a hotel
room somewhere, and try and share the burden as much
as possible, because that especially if you've got one or
two main caregivers, they need as much support as the
person they're care and for to ensure that they can
continue their care and journey, because if they fall over
will come at a cost.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
So if we take it outside of the family just
for a moment and look into the types of care
as you've started to discuss there, how would you know
if it is time to start talking about a move
or in home care.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Yeah, So in New Zealand we've got a fairly good
system that allows us to assess whether people require it
at any stage. You can just decide that you would
privately like to fund for our services in the home,
and you can purchase those services it and lots of
people will take baby steps into that. It might be
(10:36):
using a companion driver service rather than driving themselves.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
That's just start to help you with this stuff.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
So you can do little bits you don't have to
like got hardcoret into like we're going to get a
keg over and every day and they're going to do
all this stuff you can try and see what works
for you. If you are wanting to get assistance with funding,
then you need to go for an assessment. And an
assessment is something that is done on a package called INTERRYE,
(11:04):
which is as a worldwide tool to assess people's abilities.
Speaker 4 (11:08):
And if an older person.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
Is needing assistance, that will probably strike the tall a
number of times throughout their aging journey.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
So the first time might be that they go and.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
See their GP and the GP says, oh, you don't
look like you're managing so well, we're going to get
you an assessment and see if we can get you
some home help something like that. That first assessment will
be fairly low key, but it still can take quite
a lot of time.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
It could be up to an hour in length.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
It will probably happen at the person's home, and there
will be a specialist, a special assessor who comes out
and sees them, and INTERI is done on a computer
and they ask a whole heap of question, some which
seem completely unrelated.
Speaker 4 (11:47):
To what's going on.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
They'll ask you, you know, who popped in for a
cup of coffee last and did you make it or
did they make it? And now let's go for a
little walk down to the letterbox, and all of these
things are pulling to get a picture for the assessor
who's answering questions in their computer that says what kind
of care and support this person might be because, as
you know, we try to be more holistic in assessing
(12:11):
this stuff now, so it's not just about is this
person falling over?
Speaker 4 (12:14):
Often they're also looking at is their issues.
Speaker 3 (12:17):
Of loneliness, isolation, mobility, nutrition, All of these things are
really important and create a whole picture. So you might
at the end of an assessment be told, look, we
think that if you have a little bit of physio,
you don't actually need any home help because if we
can get your moving again better, that's going to help.
Speaker 4 (12:35):
And other stuff.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
Times they might say, look, we think that you probably
need someone to come in three times a week to
help you with showering so that you're feeling better about
how you're presenting yourself and things like that. So that
TERI assessment tool goes all the way through right into
residential care and is used in residential care if you
need to change from say a resk time level of
care to a hospital level of care. So you might
(12:58):
touch that tool lots and lots of time through your journey.
If you're needing help.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
It's great that there's an evidence based tool. You know,
it's not a stab in the dark. It's actually quite and.
Speaker 4 (13:08):
It's internationally based as well. Yeah, so it's not just
New Zealand data.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
We of course the people who are looking at the
data can pull out the New Zealand specific stuff, but
it's international and it does allow for some beach tracking
as well, and in some places internationally they have what they.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
Call a nude beach approach. You know, you show me yours,
I'll show you mine, and.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
They're able to look across different services and say, hey,
well you guys are doing good with this thing, and
then ask those people to share what they're doing so
everyone can bring down markers of poor care or support.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
So as to as you go through that assessment process
and you might be deemed, you know you might, they
might go right, Okay, you need a bit of help here,
bit of help here, we need to get you into
a rest home now. Things like that, if you're eligible,
is that fully funded by the state.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Or okay, so for home based support services, if you
have a community service card, yep, it's going to be
fully funded. So most older people do have a Community
Services card and their care will be funded for at
home support. When you enter residential care, then there there's
a number of assessments that have to happen. So the
first assessment is the one that we've talked about. It's
(14:14):
the needs assessment do you need care?
Speaker 4 (14:16):
That's done with the INTERR tool.
Speaker 3 (14:18):
And then there's what's called income and asset testing and
that tests who pays. So it comes as quite a
shock to most New Zealanders that you are required to
pay for your own care. The owners will initially fall
on you and the state will only pick up the
bill after they've done an assessment to see how much
you earn, but also how much you own or have
(14:39):
access to through assets that you or a trust might.
Speaker 2 (14:42):
Own, and what is that benchmark?
Speaker 3 (14:44):
So it does vary depending on the living situation that
you're in. For example, if you are a single adult
living alone, the asset threshold is two hundred and eighty
four thousand.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
Six hundred and thirty six dollars to be percise, it does.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
Change, right, So that's sorry that was a single person.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
That's a single person who was living alone. Who needs here?
So which is most people, because usually if there is a.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
Partner at home, there's usually a lot of effort from
that partner in faro to keep that person at home.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
So yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (15:19):
As you you know, two hundred and eighty four thousand
dollars in change, if you own a home, you're going
to be paying for your own care, that's right. Yeah,
So there are the government has things like a residential
care loan where they will put a caveat if you
really really don't want to sell your family home, they
can put a caveat against the property and advance you
(15:41):
the money for your care.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
That's non interest bearing.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
However, on your death, that loan is immediately well on
your death or sale of that property, it's immediately repayable.
So for people who have emotional tie of their home,
it can be a really good thing. The reality of
it is very few people who to residential here are
going to come back out.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
It is usually a one way journey.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
What about access esther if you know, especially if maybe
appearent is sort of going downhill quite quickly and they're
getting assessed and yet they need to get into a
residential home. How easy is it and how quickly can
these kind of things happen.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
So assessment varies from region to region.
Speaker 3 (16:23):
Although it's a part of the water, howth in z are
trying to bring everything in line. There's just more people
and more places and fewer people in other places. So
in some cases an urgent assessment might be able to
be done within a few days, but in a large
number of places a non urgent assessment will be like
six to eight weeks away.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Because we do have an aging population. This is what
concerns me. You know, it's not like we didn't know
that we're going to have a huge amount of older people.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
Yeah, So just to clarify something I'm a little bit
confused about. So what if you haven't had an assessment
or so? An assessment is a critical part of that
pathway into care. So you couldn't say have a parent
that you go don't need an assessment. They're clearly falling
over frequently, they're mostly blind and they need to go
into a home.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
It doesn't work like that. No, you can go it privately, though,
can't you?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
As far as I'm aware, there's only one facility in
the whole of New Zealand. Who will who operates outside
of the sort of health end Z system. Yes, you
can paig privately, However they will the facility will probably
want you to have an interie assessment because if they
admit you and then you run out.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
Of funds or stop paying your fund your.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Fees, they will then have to do an assessment to
determine whether or not you should be there, and if
they are, if you are below the threshold for entry.
Speaker 4 (17:44):
They can't get any government funding to cover your care.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
And I think people are hugely surprised at how frail
and unwell people have to be before they enter residential care.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
It's a high barrier.
Speaker 3 (17:58):
Most people will be struggling to walk, so they won't
be very steady on their feet, probably if not singlely
or doubly incontinent.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
They'll have some issues around toileting.
Speaker 3 (18:11):
They'll probably have some level of cognitive impairment, they may
need to be eating a modified diet. So there's a
lot like people have to be very very unwell before
they're in here.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
That's good for families to know, because I think a
lot of the time you suddenly look at them and go, gosh,
we need some help, and to have a bit of
an understanding that yeah, that might be a little bit
there to reach than you think is good to know.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
I do know some older people who have kind of
made the leap and said, look, I'm not going to
wait for that, you know, early seventies, and I'm going
to sell my home and buy a good apartment in
a retirement, yeah, retirement village, and then they know that
village has the progressive care should they need it.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
Villages are for the people that they're great for. They
are super great.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
They only offer accommodation though, of fourteen percent of older
New Zealanders, so that most older News Islanders will not
live in a retirement village, and for many of them
it's because they can't afford it. It is an interesting
sort of financial situation in that it's a completely different
model to the model on the outside world. Very rarely
(19:24):
is their capital gains involved. The Retungkent village model. It
focuses more on rather than building assets. It's an opportunity
to use some of those assets to pay for a lifestyle,
and it is for those people who love it, a
really good lifestyle. As you said, there's lots of support,
community connections, less worries about housing, safety and security, there's
all that stuff.
Speaker 4 (19:44):
So for some people it's a really great option.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
There is, however, a slight issue that whilst you might
have priority entry into a key facility, if the facility
is full, they simply can't tack you.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
It's of no room at the inn sort of thing.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
The research has shown that there's not a lot of
people who have to go off site for care. But
I think you touched on it earlier when you said
that sometimes things can happen really quickly, and that does
like if people have a massive stroke or something like that,
that can massively. That can mean within days you go
from fully independent to needing care. And in those situations,
you might have time to wait for a care bed
(20:22):
to become available with in a retirement village, and you
might need to go somewhere else. But you can always
ask to have your name put on a waiting list.
You can negotiate with the person that you have to
go to in the interim to have a reduced period
of notice when you need to leave. But you might
find that you need to pay for care fees at
two facilities for a little period.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
I was just thinking that, yeah, yeah, it's a.
Speaker 4 (20:41):
Bit like flatting.
Speaker 3 (20:42):
You know you find it too flat and you're still
going to pay your old you know, you've got x
amount of notice there and you've got to get into
this one by that time.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
So if there's any crossover, you are left holding holding.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
That, yea, Esther, if there was ever a conversation to
be had that made me take my key, we savor
and retirement plans a little bit more seriously. This is
probably one of them.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Yeah, I mean getting older is actually really really expensive.
There's just a lot of stuff to consider, and it's
potentially going to get even trickier with fewer New Zealanders.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
Owning their homes.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
For example, the right of ends and souper is based
on the fact that you own a home and that
you don't have rent or a mortgage to pay, so
that can be a real challenge. And we're thinking about
living on ends and souper as well.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
You're listening to the Little Things and our guest on
the podcast today is Eldernette director Esther Perium, who was
helping us plan and care for our aging parents. Were
back shortly after this break. Esther, you mentioned at the beginning,
you know there are lots of services that can help
older people in their homes and things, and it would
(21:47):
be great. I'm sure there's a lot of people out
there who are starting to maybe get concerned about their family.
What are some of those? Obviously are the good old
meals on wheels. I can remember my mum delivering those.
My grandmother had somebody who came in and help to
bay a couple of times a week. As you mentioned,
you can get drivers. What are the kind of services
are out there that people could could look for if
(22:08):
they just want to help a parent who's staying in
their home.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
Yeah, definitely heaps of things to consider. So first of
all is the space that you're living in? So is
the home a suitable place? Does it have too many stairs?
Is the bathroom easily accessible? Like a shower over a
bath is obviously quite challenging if you are not so
steady on your feet anymore, so looking at what is
the bathroom?
Speaker 4 (22:31):
Like, are there's steers in the house? All those things.
Speaker 3 (22:34):
There are housing modifications that you can undertake. There is
government funded housing modification, but the waitlist is very long,
so I would advise to go a private if you can,
so you might look to put in remps or you
can have seen those really cool little seats that sit
on the side of a steer.
Speaker 4 (22:48):
Oh yeah, putting me up the stairs.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
So you know, if you want to stay in your
two story, three story house, then look at putting a
steer lift in.
Speaker 4 (22:55):
So that's sort of home stuff outside of home there.
As you said, there's so many things.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
If you're privately paying, I'd say that the sky is
almost the limit. There are home support agencies who will
take you to the movies and watch the movies with you,
and take you up for a cup of tea afterwards
and talk to you about what you.
Speaker 4 (23:11):
Watch at the movies.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
They'll tack your dog to the vets, they'll take your
dog for a walk, anything that you need right through
to the As we've touched on, the really important stuff
around personal care is showering, bathing, weren't dressing, medication management,
all of that stuff as well. You've got driving services
who are spectacular and help people when they're no longer
able to drive.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
My dad was in the army briefly when he was younger.
If you were any kind of vet, you can get
gardening services. They come to your home. They get this
strapping young man he comes around, he mosa lawn, he
clips the hedge. It's amazing, and you don't have to
have been in the services for very long or you know,
have even done act of dudy overseas. I was quite
(23:50):
blown away by that. I don't know, I guess that's
funded by the Ministry of Defense.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Not sure you were saying.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
I was just thinking about the quality of life and
how how how variable it is for those who have
and those who don't. You know, yes, this disky is
a limit if money is not an issue, but if
you've been on a middle income even probably have your
career before, can we say we came along.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
You know.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
It's a bit depressing, isn't it that.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
The quality of life is so variable depending on your income.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
It's pretty I think it's a pretty hard thing for
us to swallow because I think that we and especially
the older generations, we're sort of told that the state
will care from you from cradle to grave and everything
will be fine and everything will be covered. But just
like if you look at you childcare, for example, the.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
Reality of it is we live in a more.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
Capitalist society now where there are more options for those
who have funds, which does result in a teared system
of care. And yeah, it is super challenging because a
lot of people see older people as a real asset
and a real valuable part of our community, and they
see that it is time for them to perhaps get
(25:04):
back some of what they've put in. And for some
older people that can be super challenging if there have
been people who have been really giving in the voluntary
sense within their community, because that was a generation of
women who stayed at home and did good charitable works
and things like that, and now they look to find
who are the people who are going to be supporting them.
(25:26):
Now it's their turn to receive, and they look around
and all the women are at work. It is a
bit of a mindset shift and quite challenging for people.
And it's probably one of the reasons why you'll hear
people in the set of saying that we need to
more highly value those who work with older people, so
that people see that careers and caregiving and nursing and
(25:48):
things like that are valued.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
They're well enumerated.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
People see them as a career pathway, not just a
job for people who perhaps don't want or can't work
somewhere else.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Absolutely as well, Oh, No.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I was volunteering for a while with my dog up
in Orkland Hospital in the elder people's ward, and the
physios really struck me their gentleness, their kindness. You know,
they are trying to get these people back to being
as independent as they can be after a fall or
chronic illness or whatever, but or in operation and yeah,
(26:23):
I just was like, you.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Pay them everything, you can give them everything.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Yeah, it's a funny thing.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Just to finish off sort of the services and things. Esther,
if you decide to have a parent come and live
with you, but you are also both working in things
and you'd like to be able to try and get
a little bit of assisted help, can you still do
that or if they're living with you it does sort
of do you get asset tested. I suppose, as.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
I said before, if it's time based support services and
if the older person has a community service card that regardless. Yeah,
the investment will look at what kind of familial and
support and support they have at home. So the assessment
they might not get access to certain things because it
(27:10):
is seen that the family can provide some kind of
support and there is an increasing reliance on friends far note, neighbors,
anybody who has any contact with older people, there is
an increasing reliance on them to meet some of the
needs that older people have. You know, things like could
you ask your neighbor to take out you're really been
(27:32):
on rubbish day? Those sorts of things there will they
will ask you to call into your networks. So do
expect that there will be some expectation.
Speaker 1 (27:43):
Someone I'm involved with currently going through this, we've got
a WhatsApp group between I know, it's growing all the time.
It was just a couple of neighbors. Now it's his
GP as well. Now it's a woman who gives them
susan coffee every day and she's like, he hasn't been
in for a few days, as anybody seen him. We
know first heard about it and thought I'm going to
have to do something here, and I feel guilty walking
(28:03):
past the house without dropping in. It felt like such
a big thing, And then once we just shared it,
it's just becomes kind of.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
We're all, you know, we're all in.
Speaker 1 (28:14):
It's together, and we're all just checking in and it
doesn't feel so burdensome anymore.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
It's also really important to consider the ken the person
that you're supporting can they bring something to the table
as well, So nobody loves to feel like they are
the receiver of charity or people's good intentions. It begins
to feel very burdensome on someone. So I would suggest
(28:39):
that perhaps talking with the old person about what they
can do. And it might be things like can you
text me or call me when the kids get home
from school so I know that they've got home. It
might be if I get you the ingredients for this thing,
can you make the.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Biscuits that we need for the kids lunch this week?
Speaker 3 (28:59):
Because they still have skills and knowledge and things to share.
So the more we can make it feel like a
two way relationship where they are also giving something back
for as long as possible. I mean, they're going to
get to the point probably where they can't. But tiny
little things like can you tu win the kids at home?
Can you put this for us? Can you maybe they
(29:20):
can still manage a wallybin?
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Can you take my wheely bin in and out? Those things?
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Suddenly it feels like, oh, this is a reciprocal relationship.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
But it's also purpose too. Purpose is good in.
Speaker 4 (29:30):
Life, in life, it's really important.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
So Esther, one of the difficult conversations to have with
your parents. Aside from suggesting they stop driving, the other
one is maybe talking about time to downsize or to
make that move, or to think about, you know, where
they may end up in the future and things. And
it could be quite a morbid conversation to have because
(29:54):
you don't want to kind of go right in there
and sort of take over and feel like you're controlling
them and seduce that they, you know, do the clean
out and declutter and start thinking about where they're going.
But you kind of it is quite important to try
and broach the topic because once again, things can happen
in a hurry and what people are left to deal
with can be overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Yeah, I think that one of the biggest, one of
the best ways to handle this conversation is to own
your own feelings in those conversations. So rather than saying Dad,
you need to declutter, you need to do this, you
need to do that, actually saying Dad, I like wake
at night, awake at night, and I worry. I worry
so much that when something's going to happen, Like you
(30:35):
go outside in the middle of the winter and it's
a frosty day and you slip on the steps and
you crack your head open.
Speaker 4 (30:40):
And you die under the washing line. Dad, I worry
about that.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
And if your older person hears that and says, you
know what, I don't care. My independence is more important
to me than you lying, then perhaps you.
Speaker 4 (30:53):
Can just start worrying. It's your own thing.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
If you've shared that with them and they choose to
ignore that, then as frustrating as it is.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
These people are adults. They've got a.
Speaker 3 (31:05):
Ton of life experience. They've lived through a whole heap
of other things. They've got more life experience than we have,
and they're independent people, and most of them are still
making They may be crazy decisions, they may be frustrating decisions,
may be all of those things. But at what point
in our lives and we've talked, you talked earlier about
you know, we need to have these conversations because this
(31:26):
will be us one day. At what stage are we
going to let our kids take control of our lives?
Speaker 2 (31:32):
I was going to say, I'll probably have a completely
different conversation with my parents than I will let my
children have with me.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
Yeah, so it's really challenging. But to own your own
feelings and to actually say this is actually.
Speaker 3 (31:44):
More about me than it is about you. But have
you considered Dad, that if you don't clean out that shed,
I'm going to have to do it when you're gone.
Can we at least stand in the doorway and you
can tell me what's important. Maybe that's a halfway point.
Maybe it's not. You have to declutter and downsize and
move out. Maybe yet's tell me what's important, Tell me
where the lookless stuff? I'm sharing my worries with you.
(32:05):
You don't care about that, Okay, Well I'll just set aside.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
I think that's the single most biggest golden nugget I've
heard so far in this conversation. I'm absolutely loving that.
You know, you actually just described exactly how my grandmother died.
She went outside, she wanted to put something in the bin.
There was a bush that was bothering her. She pulled
on it. She slipped in the house slippers, fell over,
cracked her head open, and died there overnight. However, natual
(32:31):
shouldn't crack her head open, But the doctors said, look,
there wasn't anything that specifically we would say could have
killed her, except probably pneumonia. But he suggested she may
have made a choice laying there that she couldn't get
up or she wasn't going to get up, and that
was that. So in a way, I don't know whether
they said that just to make us feel better, but
that was exactly what happened. It's kind of weird.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
It's weird, weird, and it's weird because I think we
were sort of try and think of about older people.
We infantalize them a bit, we sort of make them
not as Yeah, I mean they had just the grand ups.
They do know what they'd die And yeah, I mean
I know I was a woman that the more the
(33:14):
older I get, the less IF's I give about anything
and everything.
Speaker 4 (33:20):
And I suspect that we'll continue my whole life.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Do I care about whether people care if I'm wearing
high heels into a meeting or whether I've worn makeup
or and maybe when I'm older, I will care less
and less about what my kids think about where I live.
Speaker 4 (33:33):
And I would just want to do it my way.
Speaker 3 (33:36):
And as annoying as it is, I mean, I don't
know about you, ladies, but I find a lot of freedom.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
I don't care very much. I had interesting my parents
approached me recently worth part of attorneys were various different
ones over different things medical and things like that, and
I was hugely grateful that, you know, it wasn't a
conversation I had to have. They just acknowledged maybe it
was sensible to have and we kind of got on
and did those and they were very straightforward. Is that
(34:03):
something that you should be thinking about as well.
Speaker 3 (34:06):
Totally, but you should be thinking about it now, not
about your older folk doing it. You should have enduring
powers of attorney in place.
Speaker 4 (34:12):
We should all have enduring powers of attorney in place.
A lot of people don't know that.
Speaker 3 (34:15):
If something happens to you where you are unable to
make decisions for yourself, and it could be a car accident,
massive stroke, all sorts of things, if somebody then needs
to start making decisions for you and you do not
have it written.
Speaker 4 (34:27):
Down, you have to go court.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
It takes bloody ages and it's freaking expensive, and it's
not sure your likelihood is something happening when increases as
you get older. But it is a conversation that we
should all be having regularly with people. Because the other
thing about in enduring powers attorney, Yes they're super important,
but it's also super important that you keep talking to
(34:49):
your attorneys about what your wishes are because they may
change all So just for listeners, really important to know
that there are two different types of attorney that you
can appoint. So one for like your care and welfare,
so that's if you need to make decisions about medical,
decisions about moving into a care home, about sort of
the care that you might receive if it was as
a result of an accident.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
And the other is for your property and stuff like that, so.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
About your house and about your bank accounts and all
those sorts of things. So you don't have to choose
this one person, you can choose two purple can be
the attorneys for property, one for health and welfare. But
then you can appoint successes, so you can say, if
something happens to Francesca, and then it goes down the
line to this.
Speaker 4 (35:29):
Person and this person and this person.
Speaker 3 (35:30):
So if you're smart, you can actually set it up
so they only have to see the lawyer once rather
than having to update it.
Speaker 4 (35:35):
If one of your attorneys.
Speaker 3 (35:36):
Has something happened to them, so you can do you
can make it that they have.
Speaker 4 (35:41):
To consult with other people.
Speaker 3 (35:43):
So while this person might have the final say, you
can say, yep, this person has the final say, but
they must consult with my brother and sister, my parents,
my best friend before they make a decision.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
So, wow, huge document. It's super important, he was going.
Speaker 1 (35:57):
To say, so it actually it has to go through
a lawyer. It can't just be an email that you've said,
I want this, this and this.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
No, it's a really it's a binding legal document because
the power that you are giving people, and this is
an amazing thing, is that they become you. They have
as much right as you, so when you can no
longer talk for yourself, they become your voice. So it's
really important to think about who that person is. For
a lot of people, it is a family member, but
it's sure as heat doesn't have to be. I know
(36:26):
that some of my girlfriends probably know me a little
bit better than some of my family members, So maybe
they might be somebody who I would trust to make
decisions for me, who I know would speak with, you know,
the other people that over a glass of wine I talk.
Speaker 4 (36:37):
About, Oh my god, imagine if I have this horrible
thing happen and what would I do?
Speaker 3 (36:41):
And I don't often have those level of conversations with family.
Speaker 2 (36:45):
Yeah, we might be having a conversation after. Just make
this through. Yeah, if someone is thinking, oh it's quite
expensive meatpop to a lawyer to do this. Can you
just go to your Citizens and Vice Bureau? Can you
find a layer there to lawyer?
Speaker 3 (36:57):
But some lawyer's fees do very little bit, Spindy. You're
probably looking that most of them will probably able to
do if you under two grand or around two grand,
But if something dreadful happens and somebody has to go
to court, it will cost you ten grand.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
That's one way of introducing it with your parents. You
could if they haven't done it, you could say, well, hey,
I've just thought I have to do this. Why don't
you know maybe you should do it too.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
And you could make them your attorneys for something, and
then a point of success of attorneys. Right that your
mum is somebody that you want to talk to the
doctors about what kind of care you might want to
receive after a car accident, you know she might be
the best person for that. So just because people are
older doesn't mean that they can't be appointee as well.
Speaker 2 (37:38):
Yeah, cool East. When you know a little while ago,
when there was all the talk about President Biden and
whether he should step down from the US election. And
somebody texts me on the Sunday session the show I
do a news talks a b and said, it's like
trying to get your parents to stop driving, you know,
like having that conversation with them because they're so determined
that they're fine and they're okay once again. It's a
(37:58):
little bit like that question about you know, decluttering in things.
Is it up to them to make the decision?
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Gosh, this is like a super personal one for me
because recently my teenage daughter was knocked off her bike
by an older driver and we chose to go through
a community panel, to not take it to court, but
to go through.
Speaker 4 (38:18):
A community panel and resolve things that way.
Speaker 3 (38:21):
I had to look deeply into myself to where the
hat of parent and the hat of somebody who understands
this thing from an aging perspective or tries to. I'm
not an older person. I can't fully understand. But as
sure as he try and put that hat on, I
think that there comes a point where if so, in
my situation, the driver who who hit my daughter, I
(38:44):
don't think he should have been driving. It wasn't to
do with his age, he was just not a safe driver.
During the session, it was clear to me that he
wasn't quite able to follow lines of conversation and things,
you know, went great. The police also decided that he
needed to undergo an assessment before drive again. But what
I was able to offer in that situation was advice
around what you can do because there are I think
(39:09):
for older drivers, I think it's really important that they
have agency and it's horrible to have your license taken
off of you. So if you can have a choice
about when you stop driving, at least you feel a little.
Speaker 4 (39:19):
Bit empowered that you were the one who chose to stop.
Speaker 3 (39:21):
So I think that that's a conversation that you can say,
if you don't feel one hundred percent confident, hey, let's
think about stopping and what that might look like. The
things that people should consider is that if they're no
longer driving.
Speaker 4 (39:31):
They can sell their vehicle.
Speaker 3 (39:32):
How much will that realize by way of money that
they can then contribute towards things like taxis, driving services,
bus fares. There's also a lot of costs associated with driving.
So we've got the costs of warrant of fitness registrations,
petrol insurance, all the costs that come every time you
go and take your car for a warrant, when you
need a new tire.
Speaker 4 (39:53):
If you add that all up, that's actually a really
large ement.
Speaker 3 (39:56):
Some people will end up with like ten or twenty
thousand dollars in the bank for their the driving fund.
Now that's a lot of taxis and buses, and it
doesn't Whilst there is a huge loss and a grief
around losing a skill like driving and the independence that
gives you.
Speaker 4 (40:13):
Things like Uber.
Speaker 3 (40:14):
Are making it easier for people to get places where
they want right now. You don't forget to the bus stop.
You can call the thing right to you. It's not
like a taxi. It doesn't take forever.
Speaker 4 (40:23):
You don't know how much.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
It's going to cost all that stuff, so there are
ways around it. I think it's a horrible loss. As
a teenager, we celebrate the independence that we gain when
we get our driver's license. It's a big part of
our society. It's a terrible, terrible loss, and I think
we should allow all the people to feel the grief
that comes with that and acknowledge that it is a
grief and a loss, not just oh you shouldn't drive anymore.
(40:45):
It's probably a loss of identity if they drive other
people around, maybe they drive a friend to church, a
grandchild to sport, all of those things that's painful. So
I think it's a case by case.
Speaker 4 (40:56):
It's very, very.
Speaker 3 (40:57):
Awkward, but it's a conversation with having conversation with going
into thinking about how much can we get in our
transport bank if we don't drive anymore.
Speaker 2 (41:06):
I hope your thought is okay, Esther.
Speaker 4 (41:08):
But yeh, lucky.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Yeah, it's one of those things that, like some of
the things we've talked about before, you were saying about
owning your feelings, but this one has got external implications
if if it goes badly.
Speaker 3 (41:19):
This gentlemen could have killed my daughter, pull the other way.
So I think that's you know, And that was my
message to him at the community session, was you know,
I don't want you to live with the fact that
you could kill exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yes, So look, we've just got two minutes, and I
was just wondering if we could just touch on funerals
and broaching funerals and things. A lot of times people
leave instructions so it's quite simple and clear. But of
course it's another moment in our lives where it's such
takes such an emotional toll on families, and it can
be very difficult count it. It's kind of important to
(41:53):
have a chat with your parents about what they want.
Speaker 3 (41:55):
Yeah, it is, and there are a couple of ways
that you can do this. And I'm going to go
even a step further. I'm going to even touch on dying.
That's important to talk about how and where you want
to die as well, not just how you want it done.
Speaker 4 (42:06):
Afterwards.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
There's an amazing talk called an Advanced care plan. If
you go on to my acpt all dot in ze,
it's my Advanced Care Plan or dot in zed. They
have a fabulous document that talks about how when you'd
like to die, who you'd like around you, what would
you like to happen. It also touches on funeral stuff.
It is so for some people. For some cultures, talking
(42:28):
about death is a bit like calling death. So it's
important to be culturally appropriate. And I think that within
the Pakia society.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
I don't think we should have anything to worry about.
Speaker 3 (42:37):
We should be able to go in there, get brave
and talk about the tough stuff. Once it's done. It's done,
you don't need to talk about it again. So it's
one of those things you can tack off your list.
Also worth noting that when we talk before about the
asset threshold for entering care and being quite to pay for.
Speaker 4 (42:53):
It yourself, you can prepay a funeral.
Speaker 3 (42:55):
Fund of ten thousand dollars that's exempt from that asset testing.
So it's really important to think about it, not just
from the emotional point of view, but financially. There is
some advantages to planning a funeral and putting ten thousand
dollars in one of the accounts of a funeral trust.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
It's ten thousand dollars the average cost for a.
Speaker 4 (43:15):
Oh no, the average cost for a funeral is a
lot higher than that.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
That's it.
Speaker 4 (43:18):
Thousand dollars goes a long way towards her.
Speaker 2 (43:22):
You can see how unprepared we are for all this.
Speaker 3 (43:25):
We can do a whole other talk on funerals and
the cost well, I mean, geesh, we have to is over.
Speaker 4 (43:32):
Twenty thousand dollars for a funeral in years ound.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
Okay, so we'll be back in season four fer we'll
be back to talk funerals, because you know that's just
giving me more too much to think about right now. Esther,
thank you so much for your time. It's been really
great to talk to you, and you've given us a
lot of very practical, valuable information. So thank you.
Speaker 4 (43:52):
Look forward to doing it again.
Speaker 2 (43:58):
Well that was a lightning noise, Yeah, it was. I
think you hit the nail on the head. And Esther
made the comment as well, aging is expensive, Getting old
is expensive. And I think, as she said, a lot
of us presume that we're going to be supported and
helped later on in life. But it sounds to me
like it's harder than I thought it would be for
(44:18):
a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (44:20):
I mean, I just made a huge sigh, and I
shouldn't have, because actually she's given us information that might
sound a little frightening, but actually she also given us
some really really practical advice. But you're right, it is expensive.
I mean, I'd like to think i'd have more than
nearly three hundred thousand dollars left. But is there any
points You just have to own a home, you know,
(44:42):
it doesn't matter how much case you've got in the bank.
Speaker 2 (44:44):
It also highlights, I think, is the importance of staying well,
you know, looking after yourself. Go back and listen to
every The Little Things podcast that we've done on keeping
your health and your mobility. Go back and listen to
our Mobility you know episode. Just so that we can
look after our sous for as long as we possibly
need to.
Speaker 1 (45:02):
I mean, I had a very My father's a very
active man and he put that in the bank then.
And he's eighty seven now and yip, sure things are
changing for him, but he's in the old old category.
Speaker 2 (45:13):
He's an old old Yeah, but he's doing well. And
I was well king.
Speaker 1 (45:15):
I put that down to the activity did in his midlife.
So yeah, just keep moving people, and for not only
for yourself, but so that you can help your parents.
Speaker 2 (45:26):
Thanks for joining us on our New Zealand Herald podcast
series The Little Things. We hope you see this podcast
with the women in your life so we can all
be prepared and understand the options when it comes to
looking after our eting parents.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and for more on this and other topics,
head to Endzed Herald dot co dot NZ.
Speaker 2 (45:45):
We'll catch you next time on The Little Things
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