October 4, 2024 • 45 mins
Intimacy in a relationship is about more than just sex - but good intimacy and honest communication can help your relationship avoid any pitfalls in that area as well.
This week, Francesca and Louise are joined by sex therapist Jo Robertson to discuss everything you need to know about intimacy, from being honest about sex, to simple things to keep your relationship alive and communicative.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hi, I'm Francesca Budkin and I'm Louise Area.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And this is season three of our New Zealand Herald
podcast The Little Things.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
It's a podcast where we talk to experts, we find
out all the little things you need to know to
improve all kinds of areas of your life and cut
through the confusion and overload of.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Information out there.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Today, we're going to talk about intimacy and relationships, not
just sex, but that everyday intimacy that couples need to
feel connected, supported and happy. What is intimacy you, Yeah,
I guess traditionally I've always sort of it as sex,
but more and more we talk about intimacy as connection.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I agree, Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I think it is an easy one to drop off
as you move through the different seasons of life.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
It's the closeness.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Yeah, it is to people and that you're in relationships with,
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
And even though you'd think you know, after how even
many time, much time, or having had a child with somebody,
or just knowing someone really well, that you are close,
I don't think it can ever be assumed.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
No.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I think it's probably something we take for granted.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah, which is maybe why people are surprised by partner's
actions at times if they betray them in things. Yeah
you think you know someone, right, Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, And of course it's pretty easy in the day
to day housele of life to well, to not have
those conversations.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Let's be honest, we're all a bit lazy, right. We
just like things to kind of plod on each day,
not too much drama, just getting through raising the kids,
doing the job.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
You know, I know, I do remember.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
My parents gosh, saying, you know, life isn't easy, relationships
aren't easy, and I just remember thinking, oh, come on,
you're so old and boring. You know, I'm so depressing.
And I'm actually grateful for that now because I look
back and go, I should never have expected to be easy.
Of course, there are times when it is easy, early
(02:09):
flush of relationships. Early gosh, we're so proud of ourselves.
We made this baby, you know, we bought a house.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
But yeah, nothing, what's that saying? Nothing good is ever easy?
I don't know, yeah, something like those you know me.
I mean, we've tried all types of different date nights.
I just do want someone to tell me what the
lazy girl's guide to it.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
If there is someone to do that. I think it's
going to be.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Well as we do with this Podcastwise, we do not
want people to have to think long and hard. I
mean you probably, yeah, you probably should think long how
to beat a relationship at some point. But actually, what
we're here to do is to try and give you
some little things, just some little ideas of ways that
you can inject a little bit of intimacy maybe in
your day to day life, to kind of just hack you.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Mart.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
There's no way around this, is it when we're just
basically looking for a life hack here for you. All right,
let's do this to talk us through intimacy. We're joined
by the one and only Joe Robertson. Joe joined us
in season one and change the way I speak to
my children about sex. Joe is a qualified sex therapist
with a Master of Science and Medicine. In her clinical work,
Joe specializes in relationship crisis, sexual dysfunction, and fidelity and betrayal,
(03:24):
and the cultural influences on relationship expectations and norms. And
she joins us, now, so good to have you back
with us. Oh so fun last time, So we had
to do another round.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Definitely, it was great, and it genuinely did change the
way we talk about sex. Oh that's great, Yeah, in
all sorts of norms and not norms in our house. Yes, good, Hey,
so Joe, I mean, obviously this is an area that
you have an awful a lot of experience. And what
do you consider intimacy and connection and a relationship.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I was thinking about it on the way here to
talk with you, and I was thinking about the word
intimacy and it's probably one of my favorite words ever
because it encompasses so much. I see it as the
feeling of safety and being understood in a relationship. So
we can experience that in our friendships, you know, that
feeling of being really heard by someone that they really
(04:16):
they kind of get you, not because they might agree
with you, but they get you and what's happening for
you and what makes you tick. And then in a
romantic relationship, that often expresses itself also in physical intimacy.
And so I intentionally use the word intimacy instead of
sex all the time because it is that feeling of safety,
(04:37):
being heard, being understood. And then if you are in
a if you're touching each other, it's the expression of that.
So you've got something there as a root, and then
you've got the leaves or the fruit of it.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
And so I love it so much. It's got a
warmth to it.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
And I mean, it's always my dream that everybody feels
this in there life, whether it's in a romantic relationship
or in a friendship.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
And actually, you've just explained to me why we feel.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
We can feel quite sad and panicked when there's an
issue in a friendship and you've just explained it that
connection's gone that or we're on the same page where
we know each other so well, all of a sudden
that's broken. And I hadn't really sort of thought about
using the word intimacy with friendships. But actually that's why
it can be so distressing when you know things aren't
right with a friend.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Now that I was just funnily enough interpreting it as
well and thinking, well, that's I can be intimate with
friendchhisis because I'm not trying to raise my children with
franchis school or pay my mortgage with franchise.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
But you are trying to run part of your life.
You know, you are trying to do your work with her.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yes, yes, which has got its own complexity and important.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I'm just thinking that that's the difference between the person
that you live with and go through your everyday life
with that we don't always give our absolute best to
do we Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And it's funny also that
you say that intimacy is such a warm word. It's
a word I'm probably a little bit intimidated by. Then
as you get further and further into a relationship, it's like, God,
(06:14):
is it there?
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Oh? I am I fostering it?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
You know, it's almost like a bit of a what
do you call those words?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Well, we're generally afraid of this, probably know that we're not, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, that's sort of thing.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Is it an aspirational concept that you concern you're not achieving?
So it feels maybe in some seasons unattainable.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Oh no, I think we've walked into theatery help it.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yes, yes, for me, and not just for me, but
lots of other women my age who I spend to
or not even my age. Certainly was it's easy, isn't
it at the beginning of a relationship, or it feels easy.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Well, I think the physical side is often really present,
but I mean I feel that with my husband now.
So we've been together sixteen years and I feel a
deeper intimacy with him than I ever have before because
our sense of knowing each other is so much greater.
But that comes through lots of you know, intentionality, it's
(07:17):
not it's not always there through a relationship, and so
you do have to work on that. But I think
he knows what makes me tick.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Now.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
You know, he can look at me and know exactly
what I'm thinking or feeling in a room, and that
is the safety. And then you know, I can say
to him, this is making me wild, and I know
he knows exactly why.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
So that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
So it's kind of like an emotional collection and intellectual
connection that there's sort of lots of different ways that
our intimacy needs can be met, I suppose, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And by lots of different people.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
I'm a big fan of not one person making up
the whole pie. So I say this to my couples
all the time, particularly my woman. I just, you know,
really value those female friendships in your life, the companionship,
and we don't need to seek every single need from
our partner. We can seek our other things, whether that's fun,
you know, a bit of frivolity and other places, and
(08:15):
in some partnerships, then they actually.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Don't meet your emotional needs.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
You know, they're not the person you can cry to,
and they're not the person that you can talk about
your family with. There might be other people who can
do that better, and that's okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
So don't don't get too worked up about them. Are
you sort of saying you've got your reasons why you
love someone, but if you can't get everything from them,
don't necessarily think the grass is greener somewhere else, or no,
well it's that old you know, that's not a still
a loving relationship for you.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Yeah, So it's what does this relationship mean to me?
How does it serve me? And then where does it not?
You know, where are the gaps? And does that if
there are gaps, which I think there always will be,
does that mean I can't be with that person?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
So?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Do we have two higher expectations of our romantic partners?
I think so?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
And I think that's from the movies, right, and I
think now in social media now as well.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And sometimes I worry that I feed
into that, to be honest, because I talk about my
relationship online. And what I never want people to feel
is that there is this unattainable things that if their
relationship isn't the same, that it must be broken or
it must be dysfunctional. And actually it might be that
that partner that you're with serves a particular need but
(09:31):
they can't serve them all, and so you can try
desperately to change them. And I get that, and we all,
you know, evolve over time, and we want to change
for our partners. I think that's really healthy. But they
just may not be their strength and so that's that's okay,
like we can accept them for that.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I'm trying to think of any Hollywood movie where they
you know, where they really show the warts and all,
yeah sort of thing, and sometimes it's yeah. Sometimes it's
more of those movies where they're broken up and then
they come to together again or something when they've worked
out that they're actually only human.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Yes, absolutely, One of the movies was It's like just
like a realm, calm, funny thing, but how to be single?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Have you ever seen that one? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (10:13):
And so what I love is that she finds meaning
in other relationships and she finds also a lot of
groundedness in herself, so it's like she's getting wasted and
you know, just talking out with lots of people.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
It's just a fun movie.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
But there's these like little threads through it that I
really appreciate.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Well, that's quite a refreshing way of.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Looking at it, and that it's you know, we will
we can find intimacy in those moments and those things
that we need from a variety of different friendships and relationships.
But if we bring it back to the if you
want the traditional household relationship that we're all in at
the moment, is it just things like remembering to touch
(10:56):
each other in the hallway, like your hand on a
shoulder and good morning and all that sort of thing
before you start to kind of wake up and just
not say much at all and just get on with
your gym or the shower or whatever it is. And
you're not, like, how is it How easy is it
to regain that intimacy if it's a bit absent.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
I think it's so hard because it's often the breaking
of a culture in the relationship. So there will be
ways that will have been you know, normalized between two people,
a kind of a mode or a way of being
and if you want to change it, it's like counterintuitive.
(11:35):
It's the forming of new muscles. And so I, you know,
I tell couples all the time, why don't you give
each other a hug in the morning, And they look
at me like, hmm, you know, And it's not that
they don't want to do that, it's just that it
would feel uncomfortable because it would be new, it would
be different. So I often say, you know, there are
(11:57):
probably muscles that you've got in your relationship that are
already really strong. Maybe that's the way you do your finances,
maybe that's the way you parent, But there are other
muscles that are completely underworked or non existent.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So it's really hard to work them.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Even though it might look really simple on the surface,
but the mode, like the way to intimacy, is actually
quite simple. It's just the breaking of the culture that's hard.
So absolutely touch is so essential. Sounds really old school,
but so are manners. Like manners are pivotal in a
healthy relationship, and we really underestimate the power of a
(12:33):
I'm sorry, excuse me.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
May I thank you please?
Speaker 4 (12:39):
You know, manners are just, in my view, top three
and that's how you get to the point where people
start feeling the taking for granted. Yeah, absolutely, So everyone
should be thanked for doing the dishes, Everyone should be
thanked for taking the rubbish out, Everyone should be thanked
for picking the kids up after school. You know, whatever
it is, there should be a feeling of my partner
really value use me. But if you used your manners
(13:03):
in the first two years of your relationship, and then
after that because things got gritty and hard with the kids,
you stopped, it's gone of you actually really challenging to
weave it back in, to bring it back. Even though
it looks simple on the surface, it's going to break
the culture of the relationship.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I think I've probably we've probably all witnessed it either
our own personal experience or in another relationship where you
kind of go home from something and you.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Go, God, day, wasn't speaking very nicely to Julie there was?
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Or you do kind of notice it, Yeah, absolutely, and
then the other one is asking questions. So in the
early stages, again, we tend to really what I call
pursue each other. So we pursue each other physically, but
then we also pursue each other intellectually and emotionally, you know,
how is your day, Like, what happened atwork, how was
that for you?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
How are you.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Feeling about the kids at the moment, What are your dreams, aspirations?
All of that stuff that sometimes is actually a little
bit cheesy, but it's so foundational and feeling one to
desired pursuit and valued in the relationship. And like, we
have this thing every Thursday, we have a date night
at home because we've got three kids. Yeah, I've abandoned
(14:10):
completely the idea of going out and it's like so expensive,
so we just stay home. We get our favorite takeaways
and we make a really nice cocktail. That's it, and
we talk for usually up to an hour. And sometimes
we feel like we've got nothing to talk about. And
we've got an app that we can sometimes use and
asks us really interesting questions, but we have conversations that
(14:35):
we don't and the rest of the week because life
is busy and tiring, and we might go to bed without.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Speaking and all of that stuff. So it can be
just as simple as showing interest in each other's lives.
Knowing that your partner this week has a really full
on week at work and some stressful things happening asking
how that went. I know that in our house, we
just like to sit down at the end of the
day when we're both finally home and had a moment
and just we just chat. We have that catch up,
We have that daily catch up, and we kind of
(15:00):
cover off everything from the day or what might be
happening tomorrow. We cain't, you know, like and it's just
and then we're all on the same page. And then
you know, I'll fall asleep what our sports show and
but you know, like there's that there's that daily chicken,
that daily connection, that daily chat about where we're all
at and what's going on and what are we us
(15:21):
and you know what our sun drove into that day
or something like that.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
You know, yeah, I would encourage you to push it
out every once in a while, just a little bit
more to things like how are you feeling about your
relationship with the kids? You know, who are you finding
challenging at the moment and why yeah, or where do
you want to be in five years? How are you
feeling about twenty twenty five. We do focus on surviving
the day, then the week, than the month. It's got
(15:45):
we don't quite get to and I think this is
what a lot of couples, you know, when they've you've
had your kids, you're you're raising your children. There's a
lot of hustle going on, there's a bit of chaos,
and it's just so easy to feel that connection just
slipping a little bit.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Absolutely, And I've been there, you know, and totally I
remember when the when there were just the babies, you know,
and if anyone's in that season, I remember it so
vividly where they do their cluster feeding at night. Oh yeah,
and they just are on you from seven to eleven
every single night. And I remember it was like the
end of four months of that and me thinking while
(16:23):
feeding again, like will I ever see Dave again? Like
when will we ever have time together again? And really
feeling the distance of that, and you know, also through
seasons of work, travel and you know that stuff, just
like where has this relationship gone?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Sometimes I don't know.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
About you, Lou, but our kids are sort of well,
you've got one who's already left. I've got one who's
finishing school this year, and another one who's sort of
a year away from finishing school. And I'm saying to
get really excited about that it does feel like there's
a new chapter yeah, coming out for me and my
part Oh you know.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
My fifteen year old son keeps telling me, you know,
Mace leaving next year. Mum, I think I'm going to
be really busy. I think you and Dad need to
get some hobbies.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Don't worry, I'm already thinking about a lost of things
we can't wait to do.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I thought it's a gorgeous that they I mean, of course,
are there center of our world and all of that,
but also not always. Also we are thinking we are
kind of getting hungry for being just us again.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah, that's so great.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Hate Joe, you just sort of you're talking about that safety,
that emotional safety that you have that this person knows you,
they've got your back and they're there for you. What
about a meeting of the minds as well, because intellectually
we want to be on sort of the same wavelength,
so to speak.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
How important is that in a relationship?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
If you think I can't have the kind of conversation
I want my partner and things, is that important? No?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I think it's great. I mean there's this concept called bids.
Have you ever heard of that?
Speaker 3 (17:55):
No?
Speaker 4 (17:55):
No, so a bid is where one partner throws something
out and what they're really hoping for is a bite.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
They're hoping for somebody to grab hold of that.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Oh yes, yeah, yeah, And that's what we do all day,
all the time. So it might be something from the news,
it might be something like that they've noticed about the
bird outside, it might be something that happened in their
sports game, whatever it is. So they throw a sentence
out and what they're really like their soul, is craving
for their significant other to pick it up. So sometimes
(18:27):
that's about something you don't care about at all, all,
like at all.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, let's do it all the time. Cans make a
bed for connection all the time. And sometimes I do
say to my husband, I know you're not interested in
hearing about that tackle he made in the yes thirteen
minutes of the game, but that was him making a
bid for connection.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
But I never think it about it in.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Relation to him, and I I think about it in
his relationship with the kids.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
Yeah, we do it to each other pretty much constantly
without even realizing. It's very intuitive, right as you know, Hey,
I you know, went to the shop today and I
saw blah blah blah, and you know if they just okay,
you know that actually like it. On the surface, again,
it looks like kind of nothing, but underneath that is
(19:11):
they didn't really want to hear from me. And over
time what that does is it shuts them down. Yeah,
it's death by a thousand cuts, isn't it? And it
pulls them away. And so what we in an ideal
world want is that our partners always feel like we
want them, even if it's something we.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Actually don't care about. Good bite, Okay, can.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
We say, you know, that's interesting, but I don't really
care about it, or do you have to actually go
into the conversation. Well, you know, like somebody's changed their
driver in Formula one, Yes, and he's telling me about it.
How how involved I have you give that conversation?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
I reckon you want to give it? You know, like
a few minutes? Okay, yeah, so maybe three.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
I'm quite good at this because I have a neurodivergent
door who deep dives into a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
She wants to know everything about everything.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
So I get a lot of bids strong on at me,
and I have to be honest and say I'm probably
quite good at biting.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
You just kind of that's a special skills that I'm
actually quite good at it.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
I like, I'm all for the delay. So if you
don't feel you've got space for it, or you're really
focused on something else, or you're just exhausted, you can
say I want to know about that, but I'm not
in a like the head space to really think about
it right now. And then though, ask the follow up
question the next day. What were you trying to tell
(20:44):
me about the pages?
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I like that?
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Yeah, yeah, So delay totally fine, and we can do
that with our kids too. So I one of my
kids was asking me I was. We were in a
TikTok in Sri Lanka and it was thirty five degrees
and there was four of us sitting in the back
basically on top of each other, and I was thirsty, hungry,
all the things, and he wanted to ask me a
really in depth question about the future and things that
(21:08):
I was going to let him do and not do.
And so I said, you know, I'm really happy to
have this conversation with you, but definitely not now. I
can't do that because I'm not in a good space.
It won't work well for either of us. You will
never be allowed to do anything. I actually said that.
I said, any decision I make right now is not
going to be a good one, and anything I say
(21:29):
right now is probably not going to be great for you.
So the delay all good. But circle back, Yeah, like
revisit it for them.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I do kind of miss those days where the kids
will throw some random stuff with him. They tend to
know when to approach about things now and be a
little bit more tactical. Tactical actually just I know, I
know when to get her and when to ask if
I can go to this party or what it is. Yeah, look,
(21:58):
I guess so of an average day, you start with
perhaps a hug, yeah, right, and then you hustle, bustle
of getting everybody ready for what he read it is,
get out of the house. What about little ticks through
the day or you know, because I don't, I must
admit we don't touch base much through a working day
at all.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Does that matter?
Speaker 4 (22:17):
No, we don't, right, Yeah, And very early on Dave
would call me, and I remember when we were first
together and really early married, and he would call me
and I would say, why are you calling? So I
just want to see how you're doing. I'm going to
see you in four hours, so maybe we could talk
about them. And he's taking a bit, I know, and
(22:39):
now I would say that so differently, but at the
time I was like, really, yeah, like we don't need
a chat. But the point is that you make a
plan together. So there's this thing called a false agreement
and an authentic agreement. Now you don't need to like
memorize all these frameworks, but these are things we talk
about in therapy. So a false agreement is where one
person has just given in and sometimes resent for so
(23:01):
they don't actually like what's happening, they don't like the dynamic.
This happens with sex all the time. A false agreement
being I don't like that we never have sex, but
I've given up. An authentic agreement being a conversation about
how things are going to look and you know how
you're going to manage staff, what you're going to do,
and then both usually neither gets like one hundred percent
(23:21):
what they really really want, but it's talked about, so
it's come from a place of conversation. And so that
was like the phone calls for me was one of those,
so we had to talk about it. It was like
feels that you want to talk in the day. I
really love that so much, right, And he was like, yeah,
I'd really like to check in at lunchtime because this
(23:43):
is just I look like it.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
And so sometimes you do it more regularly than others.
It's not an everyday thing, but it's an authentic agreement.
So neither person is on a one hundred percent what they
would choose. But we've actually talked about it, made a plan.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
It's a compromise, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Yeah, And so that happens again, like I said, with
physical intimacy all the time, and what I see the
most is false agreements.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Let's talk about sex in just a moment.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
You're listening to the Little Things, and our guests on
the podcast today is Sex and Relationship Therapist. To Joe Robertson,
We're going to be back shortly after this break.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Okay, So sorry, false authentic So that again false agreement yep,
and false agreements okay, So how explain how that relates
to sexual intimacy?
Speaker 4 (24:34):
So often in a relationship, almost always, you've got differing
levels of libido. You've got one person who wants it
a little bit more on one person who wants it
a little bit less, and that's really really common, just
to throw out the stereotypes. Often it is the woman
who wants it a little bit less, but that is
usually hormonal because we have a rise in estrogen once
a month, which means that that's when we're most likely
(24:54):
to want sex, and the rest of the time we
don't have as much estrogen and our bodies are not
as keen. Testosterone, however, stays the same all the bloody time,
so they tend to have a usually a higher level
of libido. Right, So that's totally normal and fine. That's
not the case every single relationship, but it's the most
(25:16):
common situation. What often happens is that one person is
getting what they want and the other person isn't getting
anything close to what they want, and they don't talk
about it, or maybe they tried a few times it
didn't go well, so they never speak about it again,
and there's a maybe like a tension in the relationship,
(25:40):
and it sits there in between the two of you
because it's not talked about. There's no conversation. So you
need to build a bridge over that tension through talking
and come to a place of authentic agreement. Around the plan.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
See.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
I find that interesting because obviously, in the early stage
of the relationship, it doesn't seem to matter what of estrogen,
no you're in or not. You just you're just hot
and horning yeah, yeah, the whole you know, yeah, for
quite some time.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
So imagine that as though your body is trying to
do some work for you. They're trying to figure out
if this is your mate. So the body is essentially
pushing you towards that person and figuring it out. And
then often when there's some kind of deeper level of commitment,
the body rests and it goes, oh, yeah, I watch
(26:27):
something that's a lot I know, I know. So the
body is doing something that it needs to do. And
this is what we notice some reality TV shows. I
was on Marriati First Sight, and we notice it then
that if there isn't that attraction in the early days,
it's really hard to make the relationship work because the
body is not doing the work. So if you have
(26:47):
in conflict in an early relationship, which is really really
normal because you're figuring each other out, the body is
kind of pushing you through that a bit because you've
got just like deep passion for each other, but later
stages or if you don't have the attraction, then it's struggle.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
It's struggling a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
How did anyone ever do it when they manage it? When?
Or no, for sure, when they weren't having sex before marriage,
because they're still really haunting for each other, right.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Yeah, So I work with lots of those couples as well,
and they're still having a reasonably good time at Yeah,
and even if they're just kissing, they're still very passionate
at that and their body is feeling all the things, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
If their body is not feeling all the things, that
for me is a red flag. Okay, So moving further
back into their relationship again, the false agreement is at play,
and the key to get through that is communication. To talk,
to negotiate, to make a plan. Yeah, with help or not?
Can you do that your self? Do you need to
(27:53):
see someone? Do you think or I.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Think you can do it yourself as long as there's
a high level of empathy, respect and you've got so
you've got some skills that's really like. Those are communication skills.
The ability to listen, reflect back, and then say what
you want but in a highly respectful empathetic way.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
How do you get intimacy back after an infidelity?
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Oh, yes, definitely possible. So most couples stay together after
infidelity or betrayal. So I use betrayal as a kind
of a more macro term because you can get betrayal
in lots of different ways. People think of infidelity as
an affair, but betrayal is they held someone's hand and
that is deeply wounding, or they fixing or yeah, totally,
(28:38):
they were watching stuff online that was like, way violated
your sense of boundaries. So it can look a myriad
of ways. You know, there can also be financial betrayal, sambling, drags,
all types of things. So when it comes to a
sexual betrayal or infidelity, it's really difficult for sure to recover,
(28:59):
but absolutely possible. It's not possible unless both people are
willing to do some work. So you can't recover. If
one person is avoiding, deflecting, blaming, minimizing, you're just not
You're going to continue being wounded and your sex life,
if it's present, it's not going to be what it
(29:19):
could be. So you can do it, but you need
to go slow. So I often say the person who's
been betrayed will have intuitively, their body will want to
move at a certain pace, and we follow that. So
I've had couples who've waited for eighteen months to get
to full intimacy, and that's because they've only felt comfortable
(29:40):
essentially moving to another level, you know, every couple of months.
So we respect that because their body is telling them
what they're okay with at the moment.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
And they must be doing that same work outside of
the bedroom. They must be doing that same work Oh yeah,
on the every day every internet.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
Yes, yeah, So betrayal is a two to five year recovery.
Your first year is by far the worst, and then
you built the whole year. You're not like crying every day,
it's not the situation, but your first year is always
going to be the hardest, and then new second year
you build new memories and you build a new way
of doing relationship. But then five year recovery is who
(30:17):
you become as people. So the person who's done the
betrayal of whatever kind, there's often some pretty big character
stuff going on.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
So they've eiver got.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
A you know, a deep sense of insecurity, They've got
an ego that they've never managed kept in check. They've
got streets, depression, anxiety, ADHD, like, they've got lots of
things that they've never kind of quite managed.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
So that's the five year journey. It's getting on top
of that.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So what you're are you suggesting that the breach of
intimacy whatever it was, or going outside the relationship is
more than just about the sexual connection they were having
with someone else.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Oh so much more had ever about sex? Ok yeah?
Speaker 4 (31:02):
And it's hardly ever about how the person looks, you know,
often they think that, So.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
That actually becomes very difficult for the part for the
partner who feels that they're being portrayed, because it's going
to come back and there's going to be conversations that
I want to have. It's not a simple oh you
went and did this because you found that person attractive.
There'll be a lot of things there actually that maybe
will be hard for them to have conversations about.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Really harsh.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Absolutely, and we don't talk about the relationship until there's trust.
So often in therapy where they're not as specialized in betrayal,
they want to jump right in. They don't talk about
the betrayal. They want to you know, Okay, how are
your communication skills with each other?
Speaker 1 (31:45):
What was the sex?
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Like?
Speaker 4 (31:46):
You know, they want to talk about the dynamics and
the partnership, and we just don't even go there for
quite a while because you can't talk about your relationship
or your flaws with somebody who's just wounded you to
the deepest part of your being. So we work on
the wound first and then we get to the relationship.
But there's often a great sense of relief when they
realize it's not about sex and it's actually about a
(32:08):
need or a feeling that wasn't being met or addressed,
and that just provides some security that if they work
on that, it's not necessarily going to happen again.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
So just I'm just trying to think about that in
terms of, so your partner betrays you sexually with somebody else,
and you're thinking, it's not that you're you're going back
and going on, what didn't I do As the partner
who's been aggrieved, We're not supposed to be going, oh, well,
I know we weren't having sex as often as we
should have, or I was kind of on this case
(32:41):
about such and such. That's not what you're saying.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
Well, we have conversations about, you know, physical intimacy. We
often don't do that in the early phases. So we're
going to get there. But what happened, what I see
the most frequently is that a false agreement was created.
You know that sex happens at this level, and now
that one person builds resentment about that, but they might
never actually say that, so they might never raise it.
(33:06):
You know, I'm really struggling because they don't feel as
connected to you. They might say it in really kind
of crude ways, like why do you want.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
To have six with me?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
It's like that never works, so that you know, I'm
really struggling with with you know where we're at, and
I really want to be close to you.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
I really want to have that physical touch. It feels
like it's gone and I'm not doing well. But they
often don't say that, and so they cheat and they
sometimes feel justified in that. But cheating is never the answer.
The conversation is the answer. So did you say anything, No,
that was the problem.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
So Joe, if you have a couple who decide that
they don't want to do the work, yeah, and I
don't want to put that work in and you know,
in our middle AG's a lot of divorces and people
are entering into new relationships. If you do meet someone
new and they and you get the feeling that they
have a bit of a fear of intimacy for some reason,
maybe you know past experiences and things.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
How do you approach that? Well, I dearly, you can
talk about it. Yeah. I think that you don't need perfection,
but you do need progress. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Right, So people's starting point can be anywhere. But what
you really need to know is that that person's willing
to do the self reflection, that they're willing to have
the conversations, and that they're willing to change. So then
that change might you know, be relatively slow or whatever pace,
but as long as you're seeing progress, the relationship has
a lot of hope. And I see this all the time,
(34:36):
people like should I leave? Well, how were they two
months ago? And how are they now? Are they quite different?
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Great? Okay, So that shows self reflection usually, the ability
to have a conversation and willingness to progress, and you
can do anything with that. Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
My husband and I did this little thing in July,
just something that we found online actually, and it was
just this stety day thing and you just did the
both had the same task every day, and it was
quite cute.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
It was quite fun.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
And I couldn't get over in a week and a
half how much we were talking even if it was
about that and saying, oh, you just did that thing
because I know what you're doing, because I've got to
do it to at some point today, you know, it
got a bit deep and hard. Near the end we
were like, yeah, okay, I think I might have got
away down south with my kids while he was still
(35:22):
working for a few days and we lost the vibe.
And I'm like, we can just go back and look
at the emails and do it all over again totally.
And I was quite struck how quickly, and obviously we
went recovering from a trail or anything, but I was
quite strike how quickly you can rebuild that cute little things.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Or yeah, because you're changing the culture of the relationship,
you know, you're changing the water that you're swimming in.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
And then you can have the more difficult, challenging conversations
without the backlog of crap.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Yeah, And you know again, something I tell clients is like,
how often do you compliment each other. How often do
you say they look good, or or that you really
like the way that they parent, or you really like
the thing that they did at work, or like, how
often do you give them praise? Because in a context
of praise you can have challenging conversations, whilst knowing the
other person still really loves you makes it a lot easier.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
And we're kind of coming back to manners a bit.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
You mean, manus was one of your three things earlier,
so I meant to ask what were the other two things?
Speaker 4 (36:21):
So touch, touch, time, time and manners and manners. Yeah
that's pretty straightforward, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I know.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Yeah, and manners I just want to say includes putting
your phone down when someone talks to you.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Oh, get me started, all I just leave the room.
I've got this really bad habit, Joe. I love Love Island,
mostly just the UK one, and people are always talking
about their love language, and I was just like, what
are they on about?
Speaker 1 (36:49):
It just sounded like mumbo jumbo.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
So they have these expressions like acts of service, words
of affirmation, physical touch, gifts and quality time. Actually I
did discover recently, I think thanks to Glennon Doyle. It
was from this is all started from a pastor. Yeah,
it comes from a sort of a Christian background. This
is sort of how you're supposed to that a relationship
(37:12):
is better when we match our love languages. So theoretically,
if you're the kind of person that feels loved by
words of animation, you want to be you know, yeah,
is this just nonsense or is there actually something in this?
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Should you be saying to your heart? Okay, this is how.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
I want to be loved, This is how I will Yeah,
I have a real big love.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Hate relationship with love languages. Right.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
It's a helpful framework because it offers language. That's what
I like about it. What I don't like about it
is it's really like over simple fution, and often the
love language you crave is the one that you aren't having.
So people's love languages change all the time.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
I don't think people get there. I think they think
it's a static thing. Yeah, and it's not static.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
So if we you know, HARKing back to the little
kid days, this is constantly what people tell me. One
person will go, you know, I really want to be
loved by physical touch, and the other person will say,
I really want to be loved by acts of service?
Which one do you reckon is saying each the woman
saying active service, Yes, exactly, so you know it instantly
(38:20):
because what was most difficult in that season One person
just desperately wanted to be helped and the other person
felt totally disconnected. Both are really like valuable conversations to have.
But I can guarantee you that before those people had children,
they may have said something different.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Joe, that is such a revelation. The other thing I
think people get a bit weird about with the love
language is my husband will say his acts of service,
but he's thinking that's the way he shows love.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yes, so who builds a deck?
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Yeah right, that he builds beautifully, build a lot of debts.
But I'd be like, I would rather you'd spend that
time with the kids. Yeah, But he's like, but this
is how I show love. I'm like, that's not your
love language. No, that's you, that's your excuse deck. You're
happy building the deck. Yeah, but you're framing it as
(39:11):
in but he's not doing that intentionally. No, he's believing
that that's the way he's shoving love. And I believe
that that's true.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
But that's supposed to be out there building.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
No, it's true. It's true.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
You should always if that's the language and framework you're using,
which is why what I do like about it is
that it gives us some communication skills. Then, yes, you
show love and the way the other person would like it,
not in the way you want it, not in the
way you Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, I think you're right about the timing of love languages.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Mine could probably change daily, you know, throughout the day. Okay,
all right, so we shouldn't focus too much. You know,
all the kids these days are talking about their love language.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
We should probably we'll talk about it, like, definitely talk
about it and use it as a tool, use it
as one of your many resources for you know, communication. Great,
I'm all about it. But I just it's not static.
It moves all the time, and that's got to be okay, And.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
I think in that sense you've really outlined for us
that intimacy isn't static either. That changes through the seasons
of life. And it's all very easy for Franchise, gre
and I to be quite contemplative. And because we're kind
of looking back a lot, I mean, obviously we're hoping
to look forward to Oh.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
I'm looking forward, I'm those kids moving on.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
But we are post that estrogen flush, yes, and we
do tend to I do tend to look back and go, oh,
that was a fun time.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Or what were we doing then?
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Or yeah, and events in life, you know, like you
say that the new exciting part of your relationship, then
the babies if that's what you do, and then the
careers and then you know, for me, for example, a
serious illness. For you had your challenge with with your
daughter's diagnosis and everything that, there's going to be other
things that throw you know, there's not just one season
(40:59):
goes beautifully and then to the next one.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Yeah, No, it doesn't work like that.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
No, So you you know, that's the checking in with
each other, like what are the needs at the moment?
What do you most need from me right now? And
this year, for example, my husband said I can't keep working.
I need a break, and so what did he need
at that time? He needed permission essentially from me to
go go for it. And so that has its own challenges,
(41:27):
but it's going you know, how can I serve my
partner right now?
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Like how could I love saying it? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Because how many men just keep going and burn out. Yeah, totally. Yeah,
it was great, really good.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
And I did say, you know the moment he said
that absolutely, like that's totally fine. And I didn't realize
that he was actually going to resign that day.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
But that's okay.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
You were just like the green light boom sweet as
I'm going to do it.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Oh you've written the letter.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
Okay, okay, one and come shortly.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Joe, thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
I just love talking to you because you always just
turn things on the head a little bit. You always
make me think about things differently, and now I know
that Luke can gets so much from our friendship from me.
Good yeah, yeah, but no, thank you.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
You do.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
You just kind of freshen us up a little bit,
give us a kick in the pants.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Set reminder, no, no, no, just remind us.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
And also that you're so good at the therapy converted
into layperson speak, which is really refreshing.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
That's a goal. Oh well, you do that very touch
time manners.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
I mean, I have so many about that. That's people
to take something away, which I'm taking that.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah, thank you so much. You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Joe always brings the logical to these discussions. And she
she always brings us the fun look at Siah topics.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Yes she does, and she also broadens it out a
little bit, like you know, I came into this podcast
thinking a conversation about intimacy was purely about the relationship
you have with your partner. But of course she was
just making that point really early on that we actually
can fulfill our intimacy needs in lots of different ways,
(43:21):
from lots of different places. And if you're sitting there
kind of wondering if there's something missing, there's a part
of your relationship missing, Actually that's not It's kind of
not a nail and the coffin. Necessarily you may be
able to get your needs from from elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, I don't think you can ever expect one person
to give you everything. And it did make me think
about something from that conversation we had with Matt Heath
about and the lovely Doogle Doogle about men seeking all
their emotional needs from their partners, and maybe there is
a bit of a gender thing there, which we could
go into another episode, but that it's not infidelity to
(43:59):
find just to laugh with your girlfriends, you know, it's
just something that we need in our life.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
I also like the fact that Joe always brings the
practicality to it. So if you want to take anything
away from this podcast, Touch Time Manners are actually kind
of three little things that you can put into play
throughout your day or your week.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Right, Yeah, no, I think that's it's easy to keep
top of mind. Really, I might need the manners before
I feel like the touch.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
We'll just see, Allien, do you remember, I'm sure we
did another relationship podcast and our guest just remind us
the importance of saying thank you, you know, And I
went home and I started saying thank you, and then
I started saying a lot, and then I noticed that
the rest of the family started saying and then we
will always all saying thank you, and all of a.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
Sudden it's sort of lost its power. But there is
something in the manners, definitely. Hey, Joe can be found
at Joe robertson dot org. She's actually got three sex
courses for couples coming up on postpartum and Painful Sex
and every Day and she runs and every Day Couples.
She runs these quite often, so it's a good idea
to keep an eye on her website. That was Joe
(45:04):
robertson dot or you can follow her on Instagram. Francisca
doesn't do Instagram, but Joe's great on the Gram.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
It wouldn't be a.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Podcast if we didn't make the Coen I don't know Instagram.
Thanks for joining us on our New Zealand Herald podcast series,
The Little Things.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
We hope you share this podcast with the women in
your life so that we can all carry it on
with all the fun stuff the sexy stuff.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and for more on this and other topics,
head to end zed Harold dot co dot
Speaker 3 (45:37):
Nz and we'll catch you next time on The Little
Things
Hi, I'm Francesca Budkin and I'm Louise Area.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
And this is season three of our New Zealand Herald
podcast The Little Things.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
It's a podcast where we talk to experts, we find
out all the little things you need to know to
improve all kinds of areas of your life and cut
through the confusion and overload of.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Information out there.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
Today, we're going to talk about intimacy and relationships, not
just sex, but that everyday intimacy that couples need to
feel connected, supported and happy. What is intimacy you, Yeah,
I guess traditionally I've always sort of it as sex,
but more and more we talk about intimacy as connection.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I agree, Yeah, I agree.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
I think it is an easy one to drop off
as you move through the different seasons of life.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
It's the closeness.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
Yeah, it is to people and that you're in relationships with,
isn't it.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
And even though you'd think you know, after how even
many time, much time, or having had a child with somebody,
or just knowing someone really well, that you are close,
I don't think it can ever be assumed.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
No.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
I think it's probably something we take for granted.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Yeah, which is maybe why people are surprised by partner's
actions at times if they betray them in things. Yeah
you think you know someone, right, Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
Yeah, And of course it's pretty easy in the day
to day housele of life to well, to not have
those conversations.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Let's be honest, we're all a bit lazy, right. We
just like things to kind of plod on each day,
not too much drama, just getting through raising the kids,
doing the job.
Speaker 1 (01:46):
You know, I know, I do remember.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
My parents gosh, saying, you know, life isn't easy, relationships
aren't easy, and I just remember thinking, oh, come on,
you're so old and boring. You know, I'm so depressing.
And I'm actually grateful for that now because I look
back and go, I should never have expected to be easy.
Of course, there are times when it is easy, early
(02:09):
flush of relationships. Early gosh, we're so proud of ourselves.
We made this baby, you know, we bought a house.
Speaker 1 (02:15):
Whatever.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
But yeah, nothing, what's that saying? Nothing good is ever easy?
I don't know, yeah, something like those you know me.
I mean, we've tried all types of different date nights.
I just do want someone to tell me what the
lazy girl's guide to it.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
If there is someone to do that. I think it's
going to be.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Well as we do with this Podcastwise, we do not
want people to have to think long and hard. I
mean you probably, yeah, you probably should think long how
to beat a relationship at some point. But actually, what
we're here to do is to try and give you
some little things, just some little ideas of ways that
you can inject a little bit of intimacy maybe in
your day to day life, to kind of just hack you.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Mart.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
There's no way around this, is it when we're just
basically looking for a life hack here for you. All right,
let's do this to talk us through intimacy. We're joined
by the one and only Joe Robertson. Joe joined us
in season one and change the way I speak to
my children about sex. Joe is a qualified sex therapist
with a Master of Science and Medicine. In her clinical work,
Joe specializes in relationship crisis, sexual dysfunction, and fidelity and betrayal,
(03:24):
and the cultural influences on relationship expectations and norms. And
she joins us, now, so good to have you back
with us. Oh so fun last time, So we had
to do another round.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Definitely, it was great, and it genuinely did change the
way we talk about sex. Oh that's great, Yeah, in
all sorts of norms and not norms in our house. Yes, good, Hey,
so Joe, I mean, obviously this is an area that
you have an awful a lot of experience. And what
do you consider intimacy and connection and a relationship.
Speaker 4 (03:53):
I was thinking about it on the way here to
talk with you, and I was thinking about the word
intimacy and it's probably one of my favorite words ever
because it encompasses so much. I see it as the
feeling of safety and being understood in a relationship. So
we can experience that in our friendships, you know, that
feeling of being really heard by someone that they really
(04:16):
they kind of get you, not because they might agree
with you, but they get you and what's happening for
you and what makes you tick. And then in a
romantic relationship, that often expresses itself also in physical intimacy.
And so I intentionally use the word intimacy instead of
sex all the time because it is that feeling of safety,
(04:37):
being heard, being understood. And then if you are in
a if you're touching each other, it's the expression of that.
So you've got something there as a root, and then
you've got the leaves or the fruit of it.
Speaker 1 (04:52):
And so I love it so much. It's got a
warmth to it.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
And I mean, it's always my dream that everybody feels
this in there life, whether it's in a romantic relationship
or in a friendship.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
And actually, you've just explained to me why we feel.
Speaker 3 (05:08):
We can feel quite sad and panicked when there's an
issue in a friendship and you've just explained it that
connection's gone that or we're on the same page where
we know each other so well, all of a sudden
that's broken. And I hadn't really sort of thought about
using the word intimacy with friendships. But actually that's why
it can be so distressing when you know things aren't
right with a friend.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Now that I was just funnily enough interpreting it as
well and thinking, well, that's I can be intimate with
friendchhisis because I'm not trying to raise my children with
franchis school or pay my mortgage with franchise.
Speaker 4 (05:40):
But you are trying to run part of your life.
You know, you are trying to do your work with her.
Speaker 3 (05:46):
Yes, yes, which has got its own complexity and important.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
I'm just thinking that that's the difference between the person
that you live with and go through your everyday life
with that we don't always give our absolute best to
do we Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And it's funny also that
you say that intimacy is such a warm word. It's
a word I'm probably a little bit intimidated by. Then
as you get further and further into a relationship, it's like, God,
(06:14):
is it there?
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Oh? I am I fostering it?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
You know, it's almost like a bit of a what
do you call those words?
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Well, we're generally afraid of this, probably know that we're not, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:27):
Yeah, that's sort of thing.
Speaker 4 (06:28):
Is it an aspirational concept that you concern you're not achieving?
So it feels maybe in some seasons unattainable.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Oh no, I think we've walked into theatery help it.
Speaker 1 (06:43):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yes, yes, for me, and not just for me, but
lots of other women my age who I spend to
or not even my age. Certainly was it's easy, isn't
it at the beginning of a relationship, or it feels easy.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
Well, I think the physical side is often really present,
but I mean I feel that with my husband now.
So we've been together sixteen years and I feel a
deeper intimacy with him than I ever have before because
our sense of knowing each other is so much greater.
But that comes through lots of you know, intentionality, it's
(07:17):
not it's not always there through a relationship, and so
you do have to work on that. But I think
he knows what makes me tick.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
Now.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
You know, he can look at me and know exactly
what I'm thinking or feeling in a room, and that
is the safety. And then you know, I can say
to him, this is making me wild, and I know
he knows exactly why.
Speaker 1 (07:39):
So that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (07:39):
So it's kind of like an emotional collection and intellectual
connection that there's sort of lots of different ways that
our intimacy needs can be met, I suppose, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
And by lots of different people.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
I'm a big fan of not one person making up
the whole pie. So I say this to my couples
all the time, particularly my woman. I just, you know,
really value those female friendships in your life, the companionship,
and we don't need to seek every single need from
our partner. We can seek our other things, whether that's fun,
you know, a bit of frivolity and other places, and
(08:15):
in some partnerships, then they actually.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
Don't meet your emotional needs.
Speaker 4 (08:19):
You know, they're not the person you can cry to,
and they're not the person that you can talk about
your family with. There might be other people who can
do that better, and that's okay, okay.
Speaker 3 (08:30):
So don't don't get too worked up about them. Are
you sort of saying you've got your reasons why you
love someone, but if you can't get everything from them,
don't necessarily think the grass is greener somewhere else, or no,
well it's that old you know, that's not a still
a loving relationship for you.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Yeah, So it's what does this relationship mean to me?
How does it serve me? And then where does it not?
You know, where are the gaps? And does that if
there are gaps, which I think there always will be,
does that mean I can't be with that person?
Speaker 3 (09:02):
So?
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Do we have two higher expectations of our romantic partners?
I think so?
Speaker 3 (09:06):
And I think that's from the movies, right, and I
think now in social media now as well.
Speaker 4 (09:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And sometimes I worry that I feed
into that, to be honest, because I talk about my
relationship online. And what I never want people to feel
is that there is this unattainable things that if their
relationship isn't the same, that it must be broken or
it must be dysfunctional. And actually it might be that
that partner that you're with serves a particular need but
(09:31):
they can't serve them all, and so you can try
desperately to change them. And I get that, and we all,
you know, evolve over time, and we want to change
for our partners. I think that's really healthy. But they
just may not be their strength and so that's that's okay,
like we can accept them for that.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
I'm trying to think of any Hollywood movie where they
you know, where they really show the warts and all,
yeah sort of thing, and sometimes it's yeah. Sometimes it's
more of those movies where they're broken up and then
they come to together again or something when they've worked
out that they're actually only human.
Speaker 4 (10:03):
Yes, absolutely, One of the movies was It's like just
like a realm, calm, funny thing, but how to be single?
Speaker 1 (10:11):
Have you ever seen that one? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (10:13):
And so what I love is that she finds meaning
in other relationships and she finds also a lot of
groundedness in herself, so it's like she's getting wasted and
you know, just talking out with lots of people.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
It's just a fun movie.
Speaker 4 (10:28):
But there's these like little threads through it that I
really appreciate.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Well, that's quite a refreshing way of.
Speaker 2 (10:35):
Looking at it, and that it's you know, we will
we can find intimacy in those moments and those things
that we need from a variety of different friendships and relationships.
But if we bring it back to the if you
want the traditional household relationship that we're all in at
the moment, is it just things like remembering to touch
(10:56):
each other in the hallway, like your hand on a
shoulder and good morning and all that sort of thing
before you start to kind of wake up and just
not say much at all and just get on with
your gym or the shower or whatever it is. And
you're not, like, how is it How easy is it
to regain that intimacy if it's a bit absent.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
I think it's so hard because it's often the breaking
of a culture in the relationship. So there will be
ways that will have been you know, normalized between two people,
a kind of a mode or a way of being
and if you want to change it, it's like counterintuitive.
(11:35):
It's the forming of new muscles. And so I, you know,
I tell couples all the time, why don't you give
each other a hug in the morning, And they look
at me like, hmm, you know, And it's not that
they don't want to do that, it's just that it
would feel uncomfortable because it would be new, it would
be different. So I often say, you know, there are
(11:57):
probably muscles that you've got in your relationship that are
already really strong. Maybe that's the way you do your finances,
maybe that's the way you parent, But there are other
muscles that are completely underworked or non existent.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
So it's really hard to work them.
Speaker 4 (12:09):
Even though it might look really simple on the surface,
but the mode, like the way to intimacy, is actually
quite simple. It's just the breaking of the culture that's hard.
So absolutely touch is so essential. Sounds really old school,
but so are manners. Like manners are pivotal in a
healthy relationship, and we really underestimate the power of a
(12:33):
I'm sorry, excuse me.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
May I thank you please?
Speaker 4 (12:39):
You know, manners are just, in my view, top three
and that's how you get to the point where people
start feeling the taking for granted. Yeah, absolutely, So everyone
should be thanked for doing the dishes, Everyone should be
thanked for taking the rubbish out, Everyone should be thanked
for picking the kids up after school. You know, whatever
it is, there should be a feeling of my partner
really value use me. But if you used your manners
(13:03):
in the first two years of your relationship, and then
after that because things got gritty and hard with the kids,
you stopped, it's gone of you actually really challenging to
weave it back in, to bring it back. Even though
it looks simple on the surface, it's going to break
the culture of the relationship.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
I think I've probably we've probably all witnessed it either
our own personal experience or in another relationship where you
kind of go home from something and you.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
Go, God, day, wasn't speaking very nicely to Julie there was?
Speaker 4 (13:28):
Or you do kind of notice it, Yeah, absolutely, and
then the other one is asking questions. So in the
early stages, again, we tend to really what I call
pursue each other. So we pursue each other physically, but
then we also pursue each other intellectually and emotionally, you know,
how is your day, Like, what happened atwork, how was
that for you?
Speaker 1 (13:48):
How are you.
Speaker 4 (13:49):
Feeling about the kids at the moment, What are your dreams, aspirations?
All of that stuff that sometimes is actually a little
bit cheesy, but it's so foundational and feeling one to
desired pursuit and valued in the relationship. And like, we
have this thing every Thursday, we have a date night
at home because we've got three kids. Yeah, I've abandoned
(14:10):
completely the idea of going out and it's like so expensive,
so we just stay home. We get our favorite takeaways
and we make a really nice cocktail. That's it, and
we talk for usually up to an hour. And sometimes
we feel like we've got nothing to talk about. And
we've got an app that we can sometimes use and
asks us really interesting questions, but we have conversations that
(14:35):
we don't and the rest of the week because life
is busy and tiring, and we might go to bed without.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
Speaking and all of that stuff. So it can be
just as simple as showing interest in each other's lives.
Knowing that your partner this week has a really full
on week at work and some stressful things happening asking
how that went. I know that in our house, we
just like to sit down at the end of the
day when we're both finally home and had a moment
and just we just chat. We have that catch up,
We have that daily catch up, and we kind of
(15:00):
cover off everything from the day or what might be
happening tomorrow. We cain't, you know, like and it's just
and then we're all on the same page. And then
you know, I'll fall asleep what our sports show and
but you know, like there's that there's that daily chicken,
that daily connection, that daily chat about where we're all
at and what's going on and what are we us
(15:21):
and you know what our sun drove into that day
or something like that.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
You know, yeah, I would encourage you to push it
out every once in a while, just a little bit
more to things like how are you feeling about your
relationship with the kids? You know, who are you finding
challenging at the moment and why yeah, or where do
you want to be in five years? How are you
feeling about twenty twenty five. We do focus on surviving
the day, then the week, than the month. It's got
(15:45):
we don't quite get to and I think this is
what a lot of couples, you know, when they've you've
had your kids, you're you're raising your children. There's a
lot of hustle going on, there's a bit of chaos,
and it's just so easy to feel that connection just
slipping a little bit.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
Absolutely, And I've been there, you know, and totally I
remember when the when there were just the babies, you know,
and if anyone's in that season, I remember it so
vividly where they do their cluster feeding at night. Oh yeah,
and they just are on you from seven to eleven
every single night. And I remember it was like the
end of four months of that and me thinking while
(16:23):
feeding again, like will I ever see Dave again? Like
when will we ever have time together again? And really
feeling the distance of that, and you know, also through
seasons of work, travel and you know that stuff, just
like where has this relationship gone?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Sometimes I don't know.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
About you, Lou, but our kids are sort of well,
you've got one who's already left. I've got one who's
finishing school this year, and another one who's sort of
a year away from finishing school. And I'm saying to
get really excited about that it does feel like there's
a new chapter yeah, coming out for me and my
part Oh you know.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
My fifteen year old son keeps telling me, you know,
Mace leaving next year. Mum, I think I'm going to
be really busy. I think you and Dad need to
get some hobbies.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Don't worry, I'm already thinking about a lost of things
we can't wait to do.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
I thought it's a gorgeous that they I mean, of course,
are there center of our world and all of that,
but also not always. Also we are thinking we are
kind of getting hungry for being just us again.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
Yeah, that's so great.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Hate Joe, you just sort of you're talking about that safety,
that emotional safety that you have that this person knows you,
they've got your back and they're there for you. What
about a meeting of the minds as well, because intellectually
we want to be on sort of the same wavelength,
so to speak.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
How important is that in a relationship?
Speaker 3 (17:46):
If you think I can't have the kind of conversation
I want my partner and things, is that important? No?
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I think it's great. I mean there's this concept called bids.
Have you ever heard of that?
Speaker 3 (17:55):
No?
Speaker 4 (17:55):
No, so a bid is where one partner throws something
out and what they're really hoping for is a bite.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
They're hoping for somebody to grab hold of that.
Speaker 4 (18:06):
Oh yes, yeah, yeah, And that's what we do all day,
all the time. So it might be something from the news,
it might be something like that they've noticed about the
bird outside, it might be something that happened in their
sports game, whatever it is. So they throw a sentence
out and what they're really like their soul, is craving
for their significant other to pick it up. So sometimes
(18:27):
that's about something you don't care about at all, all,
like at all.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, let's do it all the time. Cans make a
bed for connection all the time. And sometimes I do
say to my husband, I know you're not interested in
hearing about that tackle he made in the yes thirteen
minutes of the game, but that was him making a
bid for connection.
Speaker 1 (18:45):
But I never think it about it in.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Relation to him, and I I think about it in
his relationship with the kids.
Speaker 4 (18:50):
Yeah, we do it to each other pretty much constantly
without even realizing. It's very intuitive, right as you know, Hey,
I you know, went to the shop today and I
saw blah blah blah, and you know if they just okay,
you know that actually like it. On the surface, again,
it looks like kind of nothing, but underneath that is
(19:11):
they didn't really want to hear from me. And over
time what that does is it shuts them down. Yeah,
it's death by a thousand cuts, isn't it? And it
pulls them away. And so what we in an ideal
world want is that our partners always feel like we
want them, even if it's something we.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Actually don't care about. Good bite, Okay, can.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
We say, you know, that's interesting, but I don't really
care about it, or do you have to actually go
into the conversation. Well, you know, like somebody's changed their
driver in Formula one, Yes, and he's telling me about it.
How how involved I have you give that conversation?
Speaker 1 (19:51):
I reckon you want to give it? You know, like
a few minutes? Okay, yeah, so maybe three.
Speaker 3 (19:56):
I'm quite good at this because I have a neurodivergent
door who deep dives into a lot of stuff.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
She wants to know everything about everything.
Speaker 3 (20:05):
So I get a lot of bids strong on at me,
and I have to be honest and say I'm probably
quite good at biting.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
You just kind of that's a special skills that I'm
actually quite good at it.
Speaker 4 (20:23):
I like, I'm all for the delay. So if you
don't feel you've got space for it, or you're really
focused on something else, or you're just exhausted, you can
say I want to know about that, but I'm not
in a like the head space to really think about
it right now. And then though, ask the follow up
question the next day. What were you trying to tell
(20:44):
me about the pages?
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (20:45):
I like that?
Speaker 4 (20:46):
Yeah, yeah, So delay totally fine, and we can do
that with our kids too. So I one of my
kids was asking me I was. We were in a
TikTok in Sri Lanka and it was thirty five degrees
and there was four of us sitting in the back
basically on top of each other, and I was thirsty, hungry,
all the things, and he wanted to ask me a
really in depth question about the future and things that
(21:08):
I was going to let him do and not do.
And so I said, you know, I'm really happy to
have this conversation with you, but definitely not now. I
can't do that because I'm not in a good space.
It won't work well for either of us. You will
never be allowed to do anything. I actually said that.
I said, any decision I make right now is not
going to be a good one, and anything I say
(21:29):
right now is probably not going to be great for you.
So the delay all good. But circle back, Yeah, like
revisit it for them.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
I do kind of miss those days where the kids
will throw some random stuff with him. They tend to
know when to approach about things now and be a
little bit more tactical. Tactical actually just I know, I
know when to get her and when to ask if
I can go to this party or what it is. Yeah, look,
(21:58):
I guess so of an average day, you start with
perhaps a hug, yeah, right, and then you hustle, bustle
of getting everybody ready for what he read it is,
get out of the house. What about little ticks through
the day or you know, because I don't, I must
admit we don't touch base much through a working day
at all.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Does that matter?
Speaker 4 (22:17):
No, we don't, right, Yeah, And very early on Dave
would call me, and I remember when we were first
together and really early married, and he would call me
and I would say, why are you calling? So I
just want to see how you're doing. I'm going to
see you in four hours, so maybe we could talk
about them. And he's taking a bit, I know, and
(22:39):
now I would say that so differently, but at the
time I was like, really, yeah, like we don't need
a chat. But the point is that you make a
plan together. So there's this thing called a false agreement
and an authentic agreement. Now you don't need to like
memorize all these frameworks, but these are things we talk
about in therapy. So a false agreement is where one
person has just given in and sometimes resent for so
(23:01):
they don't actually like what's happening, they don't like the dynamic.
This happens with sex all the time. A false agreement
being I don't like that we never have sex, but
I've given up. An authentic agreement being a conversation about
how things are going to look and you know how
you're going to manage staff, what you're going to do,
and then both usually neither gets like one hundred percent
(23:21):
what they really really want, but it's talked about, so
it's come from a place of conversation. And so that
was like the phone calls for me was one of those,
so we had to talk about it. It was like
feels that you want to talk in the day. I
really love that so much, right, And he was like, yeah,
I'd really like to check in at lunchtime because this
(23:43):
is just I look like it.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (23:46):
And so sometimes you do it more regularly than others.
It's not an everyday thing, but it's an authentic agreement.
So neither person is on a one hundred percent what they
would choose. But we've actually talked about it, made a plan.
Speaker 1 (23:58):
It's a compromise, isn't it.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Yeah, And so that happens again, like I said, with
physical intimacy all the time, and what I see the
most is false agreements.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Let's talk about sex in just a moment.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
You're listening to the Little Things, and our guests on
the podcast today is Sex and Relationship Therapist. To Joe Robertson,
We're going to be back shortly after this break.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Okay, So sorry, false authentic So that again false agreement yep,
and false agreements okay, So how explain how that relates
to sexual intimacy?
Speaker 4 (24:34):
So often in a relationship, almost always, you've got differing
levels of libido. You've got one person who wants it
a little bit more on one person who wants it
a little bit less, and that's really really common, just
to throw out the stereotypes. Often it is the woman
who wants it a little bit less, but that is
usually hormonal because we have a rise in estrogen once
a month, which means that that's when we're most likely
(24:54):
to want sex, and the rest of the time we
don't have as much estrogen and our bodies are not
as keen. Testosterone, however, stays the same all the bloody time,
so they tend to have a usually a higher level
of libido. Right, So that's totally normal and fine. That's
not the case every single relationship, but it's the most
(25:16):
common situation. What often happens is that one person is
getting what they want and the other person isn't getting
anything close to what they want, and they don't talk
about it, or maybe they tried a few times it
didn't go well, so they never speak about it again,
and there's a maybe like a tension in the relationship,
(25:40):
and it sits there in between the two of you
because it's not talked about. There's no conversation. So you
need to build a bridge over that tension through talking
and come to a place of authentic agreement. Around the plan.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
See.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
I find that interesting because obviously, in the early stage
of the relationship, it doesn't seem to matter what of estrogen,
no you're in or not. You just you're just hot
and horning yeah, yeah, the whole you know, yeah, for
quite some time.
Speaker 4 (26:06):
So imagine that as though your body is trying to
do some work for you. They're trying to figure out
if this is your mate. So the body is essentially
pushing you towards that person and figuring it out. And
then often when there's some kind of deeper level of commitment,
the body rests and it goes, oh, yeah, I watch
(26:27):
something that's a lot I know, I know. So the
body is doing something that it needs to do. And
this is what we notice some reality TV shows. I
was on Marriati First Sight, and we notice it then
that if there isn't that attraction in the early days,
it's really hard to make the relationship work because the
body is not doing the work. So if you have
(26:47):
in conflict in an early relationship, which is really really
normal because you're figuring each other out, the body is
kind of pushing you through that a bit because you've
got just like deep passion for each other, but later
stages or if you don't have the attraction, then it's struggle.
Speaker 1 (27:01):
It's struggling a little bit more.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
How did anyone ever do it when they manage it? When?
Or no, for sure, when they weren't having sex before marriage,
because they're still really haunting for each other, right.
Speaker 4 (27:14):
Yeah, So I work with lots of those couples as well,
and they're still having a reasonably good time at Yeah,
and even if they're just kissing, they're still very passionate
at that and their body is feeling all the things, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:33):
If their body is not feeling all the things, that
for me is a red flag. Okay, So moving further
back into their relationship again, the false agreement is at play,
and the key to get through that is communication. To talk,
to negotiate, to make a plan. Yeah, with help or not?
Can you do that your self? Do you need to
(27:53):
see someone? Do you think or I.
Speaker 4 (27:55):
Think you can do it yourself as long as there's
a high level of empathy, respect and you've got so
you've got some skills that's really like. Those are communication skills.
The ability to listen, reflect back, and then say what
you want but in a highly respectful empathetic way.
Speaker 3 (28:10):
How do you get intimacy back after an infidelity?
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Oh, yes, definitely possible. So most couples stay together after
infidelity or betrayal. So I use betrayal as a kind
of a more macro term because you can get betrayal
in lots of different ways. People think of infidelity as
an affair, but betrayal is they held someone's hand and
that is deeply wounding, or they fixing or yeah, totally,
(28:38):
they were watching stuff online that was like, way violated
your sense of boundaries. So it can look a myriad
of ways. You know, there can also be financial betrayal, sambling, drags,
all types of things. So when it comes to a
sexual betrayal or infidelity, it's really difficult for sure to recover,
(28:59):
but absolutely possible. It's not possible unless both people are
willing to do some work. So you can't recover. If
one person is avoiding, deflecting, blaming, minimizing, you're just not
You're going to continue being wounded and your sex life,
if it's present, it's not going to be what it
(29:19):
could be. So you can do it, but you need
to go slow. So I often say the person who's
been betrayed will have intuitively, their body will want to
move at a certain pace, and we follow that. So
I've had couples who've waited for eighteen months to get
to full intimacy, and that's because they've only felt comfortable
(29:40):
essentially moving to another level, you know, every couple of months.
So we respect that because their body is telling them
what they're okay with at the moment.
Speaker 2 (29:48):
And they must be doing that same work outside of
the bedroom. They must be doing that same work Oh yeah,
on the every day every internet.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
Yes, yeah, So betrayal is a two to five year recovery.
Your first year is by far the worst, and then
you built the whole year. You're not like crying every day,
it's not the situation, but your first year is always
going to be the hardest, and then new second year
you build new memories and you build a new way
of doing relationship. But then five year recovery is who
(30:17):
you become as people. So the person who's done the
betrayal of whatever kind, there's often some pretty big character
stuff going on.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
So they've eiver got.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
A you know, a deep sense of insecurity, They've got
an ego that they've never managed kept in check. They've
got streets, depression, anxiety, ADHD, like, they've got lots of
things that they've never kind of quite managed.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
So that's the five year journey. It's getting on top
of that.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
So what you're are you suggesting that the breach of
intimacy whatever it was, or going outside the relationship is
more than just about the sexual connection they were having
with someone else.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
Oh so much more had ever about sex? Ok yeah?
Speaker 4 (31:02):
And it's hardly ever about how the person looks, you know,
often they think that, So.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
That actually becomes very difficult for the part for the
partner who feels that they're being portrayed, because it's going
to come back and there's going to be conversations that
I want to have. It's not a simple oh you
went and did this because you found that person attractive.
There'll be a lot of things there actually that maybe
will be hard for them to have conversations about.
Speaker 1 (31:25):
Really harsh.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Absolutely, and we don't talk about the relationship until there's trust.
So often in therapy where they're not as specialized in betrayal,
they want to jump right in. They don't talk about
the betrayal. They want to you know, Okay, how are
your communication skills with each other?
Speaker 1 (31:45):
What was the sex?
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Like?
Speaker 4 (31:46):
You know, they want to talk about the dynamics and
the partnership, and we just don't even go there for
quite a while because you can't talk about your relationship
or your flaws with somebody who's just wounded you to
the deepest part of your being. So we work on
the wound first and then we get to the relationship.
But there's often a great sense of relief when they
realize it's not about sex and it's actually about a
(32:08):
need or a feeling that wasn't being met or addressed,
and that just provides some security that if they work
on that, it's not necessarily going to happen again.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
So just I'm just trying to think about that in
terms of, so your partner betrays you sexually with somebody else,
and you're thinking, it's not that you're you're going back
and going on, what didn't I do As the partner
who's been aggrieved, We're not supposed to be going, oh, well,
I know we weren't having sex as often as we
should have, or I was kind of on this case
(32:41):
about such and such. That's not what you're saying.
Speaker 4 (32:43):
Well, we have conversations about, you know, physical intimacy. We
often don't do that in the early phases. So we're
going to get there. But what happened, what I see
the most frequently is that a false agreement was created.
You know that sex happens at this level, and now
that one person builds resentment about that, but they might
never actually say that, so they might never raise it.
(33:06):
You know, I'm really struggling because they don't feel as
connected to you. They might say it in really kind
of crude ways, like why do you want.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
To have six with me?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
It's like that never works, so that you know, I'm
really struggling with with you know where we're at, and
I really want to be close to you.
Speaker 4 (33:23):
I really want to have that physical touch. It feels
like it's gone and I'm not doing well. But they
often don't say that, and so they cheat and they
sometimes feel justified in that. But cheating is never the answer.
The conversation is the answer. So did you say anything, No,
that was the problem.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
So Joe, if you have a couple who decide that
they don't want to do the work, yeah, and I
don't want to put that work in and you know,
in our middle AG's a lot of divorces and people
are entering into new relationships. If you do meet someone
new and they and you get the feeling that they
have a bit of a fear of intimacy for some reason,
maybe you know past experiences and things.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
How do you approach that? Well, I dearly, you can
talk about it. Yeah. I think that you don't need perfection,
but you do need progress. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
Right, So people's starting point can be anywhere. But what
you really need to know is that that person's willing
to do the self reflection, that they're willing to have
the conversations, and that they're willing to change. So then
that change might you know, be relatively slow or whatever pace,
but as long as you're seeing progress, the relationship has
a lot of hope. And I see this all the time,
(34:36):
people like should I leave? Well, how were they two
months ago? And how are they now? Are they quite different?
Speaker 1 (34:41):
Great? Okay, So that shows self reflection usually, the ability
to have a conversation and willingness to progress, and you
can do anything with that. Yeah, I'd agree with that.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
My husband and I did this little thing in July,
just something that we found online actually, and it was
just this stety day thing and you just did the
both had the same task every day, and it was
quite cute.
Speaker 1 (35:01):
It was quite fun.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
And I couldn't get over in a week and a
half how much we were talking even if it was
about that and saying, oh, you just did that thing
because I know what you're doing, because I've got to
do it to at some point today, you know, it
got a bit deep and hard. Near the end we
were like, yeah, okay, I think I might have got
away down south with my kids while he was still
(35:22):
working for a few days and we lost the vibe.
And I'm like, we can just go back and look
at the emails and do it all over again totally.
And I was quite struck how quickly, and obviously we
went recovering from a trail or anything, but I was
quite strike how quickly you can rebuild that cute little things.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
Or yeah, because you're changing the culture of the relationship,
you know, you're changing the water that you're swimming in.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
And then you can have the more difficult, challenging conversations
without the backlog of crap.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Yeah, And you know again, something I tell clients is like,
how often do you compliment each other. How often do
you say they look good, or or that you really
like the way that they parent, or you really like
the thing that they did at work, or like, how
often do you give them praise? Because in a context
of praise you can have challenging conversations, whilst knowing the
other person still really loves you makes it a lot easier.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
And we're kind of coming back to manners a bit.
Speaker 3 (36:16):
You mean, manus was one of your three things earlier,
so I meant to ask what were the other two things?
Speaker 4 (36:21):
So touch, touch, time, time and manners and manners. Yeah
that's pretty straightforward, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
I know.
Speaker 4 (36:28):
Yeah, and manners I just want to say includes putting
your phone down when someone talks to you.
Speaker 3 (36:33):
Oh, get me started, all I just leave the room.
I've got this really bad habit, Joe. I love Love Island,
mostly just the UK one, and people are always talking
about their love language, and I was just like, what
are they on about?
Speaker 1 (36:49):
It just sounded like mumbo jumbo.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
So they have these expressions like acts of service, words
of affirmation, physical touch, gifts and quality time. Actually I
did discover recently, I think thanks to Glennon Doyle. It
was from this is all started from a pastor. Yeah,
it comes from a sort of a Christian background. This
is sort of how you're supposed to that a relationship
(37:12):
is better when we match our love languages. So theoretically,
if you're the kind of person that feels loved by
words of animation, you want to be you know, yeah,
is this just nonsense or is there actually something in this?
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Should you be saying to your heart? Okay, this is how.
Speaker 3 (37:27):
I want to be loved, This is how I will Yeah,
I have a real big love.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
Hate relationship with love languages. Right.
Speaker 4 (37:34):
It's a helpful framework because it offers language. That's what
I like about it. What I don't like about it
is it's really like over simple fution, and often the
love language you crave is the one that you aren't having.
So people's love languages change all the time.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
I don't think people get there. I think they think
it's a static thing. Yeah, and it's not static.
Speaker 4 (37:57):
So if we you know, HARKing back to the little
kid days, this is constantly what people tell me. One
person will go, you know, I really want to be
loved by physical touch, and the other person will say,
I really want to be loved by acts of service?
Which one do you reckon is saying each the woman
saying active service, Yes, exactly, so you know it instantly
(38:20):
because what was most difficult in that season One person
just desperately wanted to be helped and the other person
felt totally disconnected. Both are really like valuable conversations to have.
But I can guarantee you that before those people had children,
they may have said something different.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
Joe, that is such a revelation. The other thing I
think people get a bit weird about with the love
language is my husband will say his acts of service,
but he's thinking that's the way he shows love.
Speaker 1 (38:47):
Yes, so who builds a deck?
Speaker 2 (38:49):
Yeah right, that he builds beautifully, build a lot of debts.
But I'd be like, I would rather you'd spend that
time with the kids. Yeah, But he's like, but this
is how I show love. I'm like, that's not your
love language. No, that's you, that's your excuse deck. You're
happy building the deck. Yeah, but you're framing it as
(39:11):
in but he's not doing that intentionally. No, he's believing
that that's the way he's shoving love. And I believe
that that's true.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
But that's supposed to be out there building.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
No, it's true. It's true.
Speaker 4 (39:22):
You should always if that's the language and framework you're using,
which is why what I do like about it is
that it gives us some communication skills. Then, yes, you
show love and the way the other person would like it,
not in the way you want it, not in the
way you Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:37):
Yeah, I think you're right about the timing of love languages.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Mine could probably change daily, you know, throughout the day. Okay,
all right, so we shouldn't focus too much. You know,
all the kids these days are talking about their love language.
Speaker 4 (39:50):
We should probably we'll talk about it, like, definitely talk
about it and use it as a tool, use it
as one of your many resources for you know, communication. Great,
I'm all about it. But I just it's not static.
It moves all the time, and that's got to be okay, And.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
I think in that sense you've really outlined for us
that intimacy isn't static either. That changes through the seasons
of life. And it's all very easy for Franchise, gre
and I to be quite contemplative. And because we're kind
of looking back a lot, I mean, obviously we're hoping
to look forward to Oh.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
I'm looking forward, I'm those kids moving on.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
But we are post that estrogen flush, yes, and we
do tend to I do tend to look back and go, oh,
that was a fun time.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Or what were we doing then?
Speaker 2 (40:37):
Or yeah, and events in life, you know, like you
say that the new exciting part of your relationship, then
the babies if that's what you do, and then the
careers and then you know, for me, for example, a
serious illness. For you had your challenge with with your
daughter's diagnosis and everything that, there's going to be other
things that throw you know, there's not just one season
(40:59):
goes beautifully and then to the next one.
Speaker 1 (41:01):
Yeah, No, it doesn't work like that.
Speaker 4 (41:03):
No, So you you know, that's the checking in with
each other, like what are the needs at the moment?
What do you most need from me right now? And
this year, for example, my husband said I can't keep working.
I need a break, and so what did he need
at that time? He needed permission essentially from me to
go go for it. And so that has its own challenges,
(41:27):
but it's going you know, how can I serve my
partner right now?
Speaker 1 (41:32):
Like how could I love saying it? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (41:35):
Because how many men just keep going and burn out. Yeah, totally. Yeah,
it was great, really good.
Speaker 4 (41:40):
And I did say, you know the moment he said
that absolutely, like that's totally fine. And I didn't realize
that he was actually going to resign that day.
Speaker 1 (41:49):
But that's okay.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
You were just like the green light boom sweet as
I'm going to do it.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Oh you've written the letter.
Speaker 4 (41:57):
Okay, okay, one and come shortly.
Speaker 1 (42:05):
Joe, thank you so much for being with us.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
I just love talking to you because you always just
turn things on the head a little bit. You always
make me think about things differently, and now I know
that Luke can gets so much from our friendship from me.
Good yeah, yeah, but no, thank you.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
You do.
Speaker 3 (42:23):
You just kind of freshen us up a little bit,
give us a kick in the pants.
Speaker 1 (42:26):
Set reminder, no, no, no, just remind us.
Speaker 2 (42:29):
And also that you're so good at the therapy converted
into layperson speak, which is really refreshing.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
That's a goal. Oh well, you do that very touch
time manners.
Speaker 3 (42:39):
I mean, I have so many about that. That's people
to take something away, which I'm taking that.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah, thank you so much. You're welcome.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
Joe always brings the logical to these discussions. And she
she always brings us the fun look at Siah topics.
Speaker 3 (43:00):
Yes she does, and she also broadens it out a
little bit, like you know, I came into this podcast
thinking a conversation about intimacy was purely about the relationship
you have with your partner. But of course she was
just making that point really early on that we actually
can fulfill our intimacy needs in lots of different ways,
(43:21):
from lots of different places. And if you're sitting there
kind of wondering if there's something missing, there's a part
of your relationship missing, Actually that's not It's kind of
not a nail and the coffin. Necessarily you may be
able to get your needs from from elsewhere.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Yeah, I don't think you can ever expect one person
to give you everything. And it did make me think
about something from that conversation we had with Matt Heath
about and the lovely Doogle Doogle about men seeking all
their emotional needs from their partners, and maybe there is
a bit of a gender thing there, which we could
go into another episode, but that it's not infidelity to
(43:59):
find just to laugh with your girlfriends, you know, it's
just something that we need in our life.
Speaker 3 (44:06):
I also like the fact that Joe always brings the
practicality to it. So if you want to take anything
away from this podcast, Touch Time Manners are actually kind
of three little things that you can put into play
throughout your day or your week.
Speaker 2 (44:20):
Right, Yeah, no, I think that's it's easy to keep
top of mind. Really, I might need the manners before
I feel like the touch.
Speaker 5 (44:28):
We'll just see, Allien, do you remember, I'm sure we
did another relationship podcast and our guest just remind us
the importance of saying thank you, you know, And I
went home and I started saying thank you, and then
I started saying a lot, and then I noticed that
the rest of the family started saying and then we
will always all saying thank you, and all of a.
Speaker 3 (44:42):
Sudden it's sort of lost its power. But there is
something in the manners, definitely. Hey, Joe can be found
at Joe robertson dot org. She's actually got three sex
courses for couples coming up on postpartum and Painful Sex
and every Day and she runs and every Day Couples.
She runs these quite often, so it's a good idea
to keep an eye on her website. That was Joe
(45:04):
robertson dot or you can follow her on Instagram. Francisca
doesn't do Instagram, but Joe's great on the Gram.
Speaker 1 (45:11):
It wouldn't be a.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
Podcast if we didn't make the Coen I don't know Instagram.
Thanks for joining us on our New Zealand Herald podcast series,
The Little Things.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
We hope you share this podcast with the women in
your life so that we can all carry it on
with all the fun stuff the sexy stuff.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
You can follow this podcast on iHeartRadio or wherever you
get your podcasts, and for more on this and other topics,
head to end zed Harold dot co dot
Speaker 3 (45:37):
Nz and we'll catch you next time on The Little
Things
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