April 19, 2025 • 19 mins
Easter is the season of renewal - and one expert joined Piney to reveal how that spirit can be applied to coaching in a changing world.
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Vine
from Newstalk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
To wrap the show today, pleasure to be joined by
one of our most popular regulars, coaching guru, Wayne Goldsmith,
joins us. Wayne, thanks for taking the time, Happy Easter.
Easter is all about renewal and I wanted to talk
to you about that concept in a sporting sense, renewing
yourself as a coach or as a player. So in
general terms, first of all, ken athletes and coaches truly
(00:36):
change themselves, change the habits of a lifetime in many instances.
Well hello are you, my friend, and Happy Easter to
all our wonderful listeners and all the audience right around
New Zealand and of course the rest of the world.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
But yeah, look, I think they can.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
But I think, as it is with all change, the
first part of the process.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Is accepting that change is necessary.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
And you know it's never been more important in the
current climate with AI and with the Internet, that everybody's
got access to more or less the same information. And
if you're looking for an edge in just getting more information,
well you might be looking at the wrong path because
everybody's got access to that that same central pool of data.
(01:23):
Where change really makes the difference is, you know, can
you think differently? Can you think differently and think different things?
Can you talk differently? And then can you do different actions?
Can you implement behavior change? That's where it's really at.
I think a lot of people get stuck in the
information face pinety. I think they go, you know, I
need to do I need to read more about football,
(01:46):
or I need to read more about rugby on netball.
But then when you actually say, what are you going
to do with that information? And how are you going
to change what you do and how you do it,
that's a whole nother question.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
The other thing that you've touched on there is yes,
thinking differently, talking differently, and we all know people who
talk a very good tool and who think very deeply
about things. But it's the action, isn't it. Unless you
actually change what you do, nothing will change, will it?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Well, nothing changes if nothing changes.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
There's a great line from our old coaching girl mind
and I think it's hard Ponty right. So a lot
of people will go things are not quite going away.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I like them to.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
I'm looking for a solution and human beings being the
way we are. We want to see the solution, be
able to buy the solution, and we want it right
here and right now. It's a lot of people are
googled and go, you know what, I'm not kicking the
ball very well.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I need a new pair of boots.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
And that's going to solve the problem because it's immediate,
it's quick, and I can actually see it and go, yep,
I filled in. But if the problem is you're kicking technique,
your leg strength, flexibility, you're what you're looking at, your
head position, your hips position, if it's those things, the
new boots don't make any.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Difference at all.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
And I think it's it's it's critical people go, you
know what, I've got to have a hard, critical look
at what I'm doing and then open my heart note
and become what we call inquisitive party. I love it
when people go, you know what, I wonder what would
happen if I What would happen if I did this?
(03:25):
If I was to change that, Because inquisitiveness and that
natural curiosity that's at the start of all innovation change
is that capability to go, yeah, I wonder what would happen? Though,
even if you've been successful to start being really inquiring
and inquisitive about what you do.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
That then opens the door defining solutions.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Can ask you what is probably a physiological question about
the human body, because often techniques, good or bad, are
built up over a long period of time, and muscle
memory is a big part of that. Can muscle memory
be changed if you've been using the same poor technique
or poor skirl for months, even years, is that something
(04:12):
that can be changed muscle memory?
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Oh? What a great question, What a great question, because
you know what, over the years, I've become less believing
that there's a perfect technique. So there's no perfect passing
technique in rugby, or there's no perfect passing technique in nipple,
but there's the right technique for that individual. I mean,
we even say to players, don't we we're going to
(04:37):
improve your technique.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
We're working on your kick, we're working on your past.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
We use that terminology, and you know, sometimes they've developed
a technique which may look a bit ugly and may
look a little bit unconventional.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
But it works for them.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
And I think, first of all, if you're going to
change your technique, you've got to figure out why am
I changing it? And what am I going to change
it too, and then will it make me better? Now,
if you go through that process, what am I going
to change to? Why am I changing now? Is it
going to make me better? You're then going to have
to be prepared to put in some real yards because
(05:14):
you know, if you've been doing it over and over
and over, your body gets very, very efficient. It's saying,
all right, well, if you're going to pass that way,
I'm going to create some neural pathways. I'm going to
do some things with my neurophysiology to make it easier
for me to remember and execute that move. Then going
to your brain and your muscles in your muscular system
(05:35):
and saying, I want to change what you've already set
up to make it easier for me. I want to
do it a completely different way. You've got to do
what we call deliberate practice. You've got to go in
and say, right, I'm deliberately and purposely going to focus
on this element of my technique and reconstruct it.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
And you can do it. But man, this is one
of these things that takes time.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
You can't say I think my technique needs improving on
Tuesday and then by Wednesday it's going to be better.
It can take weeks or months, and particularly for a
senior athlete who might have been doing the same thing
the same way for ten years, it can take maybe
a full year to make an impact or to change
a technique. And we often hear that from golfers and
(06:20):
tennis players and cricketers who will talk about, Hey, I'm
working on my technique. I'm developing unnew technique and it
can take weeks, months or even a year or so
if the muscle memory and if it's really ingrained of
deliberate practice to make it change.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Just to expand on that point, when somebody has decided
they want to make a change, and they've started that
deliberate practice and they've worked hard at getting the change
in technique, how common is it wane in the heat
of the battle, when things aren't going well, to revert
back to what you used to do because you know
it better.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Ah.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
This is what an interesting topic because I think it
goes back plenty to the way you train. You've got
to make your new technique resistant to fatigue and speed
and pressure.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
So what I see a lot of coaches do is
they go.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
Well, we want to change your technique if we do
it a thousand times, we do a five thousand times,
ten thousand times.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
If we just keep doing the new technique, well you'll
learn it and it'll be okay.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Not necessarily, because as you point.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Out, can you train the athlete to change their technique
so that it withstands high speed, lots of emotional and
the mental pressure of a game. Can you teach the
technique to be fatigue resistant so that when it's under
pressure you don't just fall back into what your default
(07:51):
has been for such a long period of time. That
comes back to the way you structure training. So you've
got to learn the new technique, and then you've got
to put that technique under pressure in training to make
it fatigue resistant, pressure resistant resistant, and then you can
start to release it and try out in competition, which again,
(08:11):
you know, there's a lot of stuff, and I wish
I could just come up with a name, but you'll
often hear a cricketer or a tennis player, a golfer particularly,
go hey, look, I'm working on a new ball, or
I'm working on a new technique, or I'm working on
a new shot in training. They don't let it come out.
They don't release it into the game or into a
match until they know it's going to withstand competition pressures.
(08:36):
That's one of the best parts of coaching is that's
where the real creativity I think comes in coaching.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Bond is is changing the technique.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
That's hard enough as it is, but changing it so
it overcomes that human desire to go back to your default.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
That's the real art of what we do.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
What about mindset, Wayne, We've talked about you changing the
way you swing a golf club or or bowling and
swinger or whatever it might be a physical act within sport.
Can you change your attitude? For example, of a coach
which is risk averse conservative, Can they change to become fearless,
happy to take risks. Is that change possible?
Speaker 4 (09:17):
I think some of those changes are really ingrained. Some
of those changes are based on behaviors and values and
characteristics that they had in place way before they took
up coaching or way before they became an elite athlete.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
That takes a lot of courage in itself.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Pint is to maybe meet with a psychologist, or meet
with a mentor coach, meet with a senior coach and
actually sit down and say what do you think I'm
doing that I can do better? How can I improve?
It starts maybe with a process of self reflection, And
I often say to coaches at the end of training,
sit there for five minutes and go did I coach
(09:54):
at my best today? Did I make a difference today?
What did I learn today that will make me a
better coach tomorrow? So I encourage coaches to be self
reflective of the way they do what they do anyway,
but take it's real courage to go to a mentor coach,
or to go to a sports psyche, or go to
a behavior specialist and say, listen, what do you think
(10:16):
I can do to improve where or are my weaknesses?
Speaker 3 (10:20):
To put yourself?
Speaker 4 (10:21):
If you are, you're almost subjecting yourself as a coach
to the same type of analysis and review that you
put an athlete.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
For your team through.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
And that can be tough, you know, because you know again,
I can say as a coach, I'm going to start
using AI.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Well that's not really a change, You're just using a
different tool.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Okay, Well, as a coach, I'm going to start doing
athletes or do free weights instead of machine weights. Well, again,
you're not really changing you're just changing tools to really change.
It could be as you say, it could be. I'm
comfortable taking risks. I want to go from coaching a
team to really connecting and engaging with individuals within the team.
(11:01):
I'm going to go from being sitting up in the
box and watching from this since I want to be
down there and coaching with my athletes so they know
that I'm there. They're big changes, and it takes a
lot more. You can't buy those. You could buy a
book that might send you on the right path, but
that requires really serious and honest reflection on things that
(11:23):
can be quite personal to you and your evolution as
a human.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Can I just ask you if we can zoom out
now beyond individuals to a sporting organization, a club, a
coaching program, and let's just say, hypothetically you it was
your job to go in there and enact change. I mean,
it's such a big gnally thing, isn't it. We're going
to change things here? Where do you start?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Way?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
And if that was you, where would you start if
you were looking to make positive change at a sporting organization?
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Well, fortunately or unfortunately, that is pretty much my job.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
That's my consulting gig is.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
That's why I asked That's why I asked the question.
I thought you'd have the answer more answers.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Well, the first step, as always is I like to
go in piny and hang out like I'm jack nobody.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
I just hang out.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
I don't I say to the managers, to the board,
to the execus, whoever I'm working with, I say, look,
don't make a big girl. I'm just going to float
around and I'm just going to be here for a
few days. And so quite often they'll just say, guys,
we've got someone visiting us this week. Wayne Goldsmith has
been tied up in Sport for a while. Welcome Wayne.
(12:35):
And I just I get him to really underplay it.
And I hang out and I just talk to people.
I have coffee and I talk and listen and I observe,
and I try to figure out who is the organization?
And I use that language deliberately, not what is the organization?
Where is your But I go who is this place?
Who's actually living a culture that I can see and
(12:58):
I can recognize. So the first step is understanding who
they really are and what that's about, and.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
What is the culture?
Speaker 4 (13:06):
Quite because you know you and I have talked about
culture many times over the years. Culture is really simple
in the context of a sporting organization. Culture is what
you do, and what you do is observable. So I
can be in there and I'll just sometimes, pinty, I'll
just I'll sit and hang out in the reception area
of the club reading a paper, and I listen to
(13:29):
the way the receptionists and the frontline staff, the office staff,
greet people, and how they redirect people through the organization.
How do they talk to each other, because they're the
frontline face of the whole organization. Then I might go
and sit in some coaching meetings. Then I'm not going
to have some coffee with players. Then I might hover
around the training environment and in the gym and in
(13:51):
a not creepy way.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
But because what they do screams at you.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
If you're in an organization, they can say, you know,
we're about integrity and honesty and respect. But you spend
a few days there and go, yeah, but what do
they actually do? What am I feeling? What am I seeing?
And then I usually meet with the decision makers and say, guys,
this is what it looks like. This is the behaviors
that I am seeing that then is telling me everything
(14:20):
I need to know about your culture. That's usually the
first step has been very clear. Now, if you haven't
got one hundred and seventy five years of experience that
I've managed to pull out, that feels like that some days.
What I say to all clubs is you can do
a very similar thing is if you're a let's say
(14:40):
you're the manager or a junior rugby club, instead of sitting
and hanging out with the rest of the committee on
game days, just go around and talk to parents, sit
next to players, go and talk to referees. Just be
really in touch with what people are actually doing, not
what you think they're doing. So I find a lot
of places I go pining or say, oh, we're doing
(15:02):
all that stuff Lane because he is our strategic plan
we do and all that stuff way and because we've
got our values written.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
On the wall and we're already doing that stuff.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
And then I said, have you actually gone out and looked,
Have you actually spent time with the people who on
the ground are delivering the experience of your club to
everyone else day to day?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
You probably won't see those behaviors.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
And if I'm not seeing it and they're not living
the behaviors of the organization. Well, nothing's going to change.
Their culture isn't what it should be. Once we've got
that stage and we truly understand what it is, then
you can make some steps towards changing it to what
it should be.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
But there's a.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Great line by former President Obama where he said, and
other people have said it, but it's attributed to him,
which is all meaningful. Change starts at grassroots and up.
And I'm a big believer that a lot of organizations
will try to get change or renewal by writing a
great strategic plan. That's raally the thing that actually works.
(16:07):
The thing that really works is getting a groundswell of
energy and passion and focus and movement from the people
already delivering it and helping them lift and picking them
up and trying to change things from the bottom up.
To me, works way way better than try to enforce
change from the top down.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Last question, they say, and you've heard this cliche many times,
I'm sure if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Is
it ever the right thing not to change?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
You know?
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Look, I think change for Chaine's sake is not always smart,
But The trick pointy is knowing what the change and
what a knowing what not the change. So, for example,
who you are, so you're every club, every region, every
every team has got its own identity.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
If you like that, you know and you can describe it.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
I often think, you know, when I've been around different
provinces and regions in New Zealand, that even though you're
all Kiwis, it's really different in say Southland to what
it is in Auckland. It's really different in Taranakia the
way it is in Gissy.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Even though you're all Kiwi's and.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
You're passionate about being Kiwi's, There's differences in terms of geography,
differences in culture, a little bit in food, a little
bit of environment, and that's all reflected in the way
you play football or soccer or swimming. Where you are
and what you do in your environment is all reflected
(17:43):
in who you are as a human being. And those
things are permanent. You know, if you're born and raised
and always lived in the Canterbury Plains, chances are the
characteristics and qualities of living, working and playing in the
Canterbury Plans that will always define the way you play.
You don't want to change that, because that's the essence
(18:03):
of who you are. But you can change things like
can we get stronger through different weight training, Can we
eat different foods that are going to make us healthy
and more nutritious. Can we improve our sleep? Can we
change our tactics? All those things are more or less superficial,
and I find that the teams and the clubs who
do well stay true to the really important things that
(18:27):
define who they are, and they change the superficial things
that just give them a little bit of an edge
in some areas, in some of those performance areas. But
understanding who you are and living that, that's at the
absolute heart of all success stories that I see.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Wayne. As always, it's been an education listening to your
instantly usable and very valuable advice. Happy estimate and thanks
as always for your time across New Zealand and ZB
mate dose.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Remember there is no such thing as eating too many
chocolate easteries.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I'm not sure that's true in my case, Waine, I'm
sure it isn't yours. Thanks indeed, Wayne Goldsmith Coaching Guru
WG coaching dot com. Incidentally, it says website wgcoaching dot
com for from a whole bunch of really call advice
from Wayne Goldsmith, one of our regulars here on Weekend
Sport on News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to News Talk SEDB weekends from midday, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Weekend Sport Podcast with Jason Vine
from Newstalk ZEDB.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
To wrap the show today, pleasure to be joined by
one of our most popular regulars, coaching guru, Wayne Goldsmith,
joins us. Wayne, thanks for taking the time, Happy Easter.
Easter is all about renewal and I wanted to talk
to you about that concept in a sporting sense, renewing
yourself as a coach or as a player. So in
general terms, first of all, ken athletes and coaches truly
(00:36):
change themselves, change the habits of a lifetime in many instances.
Well hello are you, my friend, and Happy Easter to
all our wonderful listeners and all the audience right around
New Zealand and of course the rest of the world.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
But yeah, look, I think they can.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
But I think, as it is with all change, the
first part of the process.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Is accepting that change is necessary.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
And you know it's never been more important in the
current climate with AI and with the Internet, that everybody's
got access to more or less the same information. And
if you're looking for an edge in just getting more information,
well you might be looking at the wrong path because
everybody's got access to that that same central pool of data.
(01:23):
Where change really makes the difference is, you know, can
you think differently? Can you think differently and think different things?
Can you talk differently? And then can you do different actions?
Can you implement behavior change? That's where it's really at.
I think a lot of people get stuck in the
information face pinety. I think they go, you know, I
need to do I need to read more about football,
(01:46):
or I need to read more about rugby on netball.
But then when you actually say, what are you going
to do with that information? And how are you going
to change what you do and how you do it,
that's a whole nother question.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
The other thing that you've touched on there is yes,
thinking differently, talking differently, and we all know people who
talk a very good tool and who think very deeply
about things. But it's the action, isn't it. Unless you
actually change what you do, nothing will change, will it?
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Well, nothing changes if nothing changes.
Speaker 4 (02:19):
There's a great line from our old coaching girl mind
and I think it's hard Ponty right. So a lot
of people will go things are not quite going away.
Speaker 3 (02:28):
I like them to.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
I'm looking for a solution and human beings being the
way we are. We want to see the solution, be
able to buy the solution, and we want it right
here and right now. It's a lot of people are
googled and go, you know what, I'm not kicking the
ball very well.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
I need a new pair of boots.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
And that's going to solve the problem because it's immediate,
it's quick, and I can actually see it and go, yep,
I filled in. But if the problem is you're kicking technique,
your leg strength, flexibility, you're what you're looking at, your
head position, your hips position, if it's those things, the
new boots don't make any.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Difference at all.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
And I think it's it's it's critical people go, you
know what, I've got to have a hard, critical look
at what I'm doing and then open my heart note
and become what we call inquisitive party. I love it
when people go, you know what, I wonder what would
happen if I What would happen if I did this?
(03:25):
If I was to change that, Because inquisitiveness and that
natural curiosity that's at the start of all innovation change
is that capability to go, yeah, I wonder what would happen? Though,
even if you've been successful to start being really inquiring
and inquisitive about what you do.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
That then opens the door defining solutions.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Can ask you what is probably a physiological question about
the human body, because often techniques, good or bad, are
built up over a long period of time, and muscle
memory is a big part of that. Can muscle memory
be changed if you've been using the same poor technique
or poor skirl for months, even years, is that something
(04:12):
that can be changed muscle memory?
Speaker 4 (04:15):
Oh? What a great question, What a great question, because
you know what, over the years, I've become less believing
that there's a perfect technique. So there's no perfect passing
technique in rugby, or there's no perfect passing technique in nipple,
but there's the right technique for that individual. I mean,
we even say to players, don't we we're going to
(04:37):
improve your technique.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
We're working on your kick, we're working on your past.
Speaker 4 (04:41):
We use that terminology, and you know, sometimes they've developed
a technique which may look a bit ugly and may
look a little bit unconventional.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
But it works for them.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
And I think, first of all, if you're going to
change your technique, you've got to figure out why am
I changing it? And what am I going to change
it too, and then will it make me better? Now,
if you go through that process, what am I going
to change to? Why am I changing now? Is it
going to make me better? You're then going to have
to be prepared to put in some real yards because
(05:14):
you know, if you've been doing it over and over
and over, your body gets very, very efficient. It's saying,
all right, well, if you're going to pass that way,
I'm going to create some neural pathways. I'm going to
do some things with my neurophysiology to make it easier
for me to remember and execute that move. Then going
to your brain and your muscles in your muscular system
(05:35):
and saying, I want to change what you've already set
up to make it easier for me. I want to
do it a completely different way. You've got to do
what we call deliberate practice. You've got to go in
and say, right, I'm deliberately and purposely going to focus
on this element of my technique and reconstruct it.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
And you can do it. But man, this is one
of these things that takes time.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
You can't say I think my technique needs improving on
Tuesday and then by Wednesday it's going to be better.
It can take weeks or months, and particularly for a
senior athlete who might have been doing the same thing
the same way for ten years, it can take maybe
a full year to make an impact or to change
a technique. And we often hear that from golfers and
(06:20):
tennis players and cricketers who will talk about, Hey, I'm
working on my technique. I'm developing unnew technique and it
can take weeks, months or even a year or so
if the muscle memory and if it's really ingrained of
deliberate practice to make it change.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Just to expand on that point, when somebody has decided
they want to make a change, and they've started that
deliberate practice and they've worked hard at getting the change
in technique, how common is it wane in the heat
of the battle, when things aren't going well, to revert
back to what you used to do because you know
it better.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
Ah.
Speaker 4 (06:58):
This is what an interesting topic because I think it
goes back plenty to the way you train. You've got
to make your new technique resistant to fatigue and speed
and pressure.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
So what I see a lot of coaches do is
they go.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
Well, we want to change your technique if we do
it a thousand times, we do a five thousand times,
ten thousand times.
Speaker 3 (07:22):
Whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (07:23):
If we just keep doing the new technique, well you'll
learn it and it'll be okay.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Not necessarily, because as you point.
Speaker 4 (07:29):
Out, can you train the athlete to change their technique
so that it withstands high speed, lots of emotional and
the mental pressure of a game. Can you teach the
technique to be fatigue resistant so that when it's under
pressure you don't just fall back into what your default
(07:51):
has been for such a long period of time. That
comes back to the way you structure training. So you've
got to learn the new technique, and then you've got
to put that technique under pressure in training to make
it fatigue resistant, pressure resistant resistant, and then you can
start to release it and try out in competition, which again,
(08:11):
you know, there's a lot of stuff, and I wish
I could just come up with a name, but you'll
often hear a cricketer or a tennis player, a golfer particularly,
go hey, look, I'm working on a new ball, or
I'm working on a new technique, or I'm working on
a new shot in training. They don't let it come out.
They don't release it into the game or into a
match until they know it's going to withstand competition pressures.
(08:36):
That's one of the best parts of coaching is that's
where the real creativity I think comes in coaching.
Speaker 3 (08:41):
Bond is is changing the technique.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
That's hard enough as it is, but changing it so
it overcomes that human desire to go back to your default.
Speaker 3 (08:51):
That's the real art of what we do.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
What about mindset, Wayne, We've talked about you changing the
way you swing a golf club or or bowling and
swinger or whatever it might be a physical act within sport.
Can you change your attitude? For example, of a coach
which is risk averse conservative, Can they change to become fearless,
happy to take risks. Is that change possible?
Speaker 4 (09:17):
I think some of those changes are really ingrained. Some
of those changes are based on behaviors and values and
characteristics that they had in place way before they took
up coaching or way before they became an elite athlete.
Speaker 3 (09:32):
That takes a lot of courage in itself.
Speaker 4 (09:33):
Pint is to maybe meet with a psychologist, or meet
with a mentor coach, meet with a senior coach and
actually sit down and say what do you think I'm
doing that I can do better? How can I improve?
It starts maybe with a process of self reflection, And
I often say to coaches at the end of training,
sit there for five minutes and go did I coach
(09:54):
at my best today? Did I make a difference today?
What did I learn today that will make me a
better coach tomorrow? So I encourage coaches to be self
reflective of the way they do what they do anyway,
but take it's real courage to go to a mentor coach,
or to go to a sports psyche, or go to
a behavior specialist and say, listen, what do you think
(10:16):
I can do to improve where or are my weaknesses?
Speaker 3 (10:20):
To put yourself?
Speaker 4 (10:21):
If you are, you're almost subjecting yourself as a coach
to the same type of analysis and review that you
put an athlete.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
For your team through.
Speaker 4 (10:29):
And that can be tough, you know, because you know again,
I can say as a coach, I'm going to start
using AI.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Well that's not really a change, You're just using a
different tool.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Okay, Well, as a coach, I'm going to start doing
athletes or do free weights instead of machine weights. Well, again,
you're not really changing you're just changing tools to really change.
It could be as you say, it could be. I'm
comfortable taking risks. I want to go from coaching a
team to really connecting and engaging with individuals within the team.
(11:01):
I'm going to go from being sitting up in the
box and watching from this since I want to be
down there and coaching with my athletes so they know
that I'm there. They're big changes, and it takes a
lot more. You can't buy those. You could buy a
book that might send you on the right path, but
that requires really serious and honest reflection on things that
(11:23):
can be quite personal to you and your evolution as
a human.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Can I just ask you if we can zoom out
now beyond individuals to a sporting organization, a club, a
coaching program, and let's just say, hypothetically you it was
your job to go in there and enact change. I mean,
it's such a big gnally thing, isn't it. We're going
to change things here? Where do you start?
Speaker 3 (11:47):
Way?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
And if that was you, where would you start if
you were looking to make positive change at a sporting organization?
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Well, fortunately or unfortunately, that is pretty much my job.
Speaker 3 (11:59):
That's my consulting gig is.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
That's why I asked That's why I asked the question.
I thought you'd have the answer more answers.
Speaker 4 (12:06):
Well, the first step, as always is I like to
go in piny and hang out like I'm jack nobody.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
I just hang out.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
I don't I say to the managers, to the board,
to the execus, whoever I'm working with, I say, look,
don't make a big girl. I'm just going to float
around and I'm just going to be here for a
few days. And so quite often they'll just say, guys,
we've got someone visiting us this week. Wayne Goldsmith has
been tied up in Sport for a while. Welcome Wayne.
(12:35):
And I just I get him to really underplay it.
And I hang out and I just talk to people.
I have coffee and I talk and listen and I observe,
and I try to figure out who is the organization?
And I use that language deliberately, not what is the organization?
Where is your But I go who is this place?
Who's actually living a culture that I can see and
(12:58):
I can recognize. So the first step is understanding who
they really are and what that's about, and.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
What is the culture?
Speaker 4 (13:06):
Quite because you know you and I have talked about
culture many times over the years. Culture is really simple
in the context of a sporting organization. Culture is what
you do, and what you do is observable. So I
can be in there and I'll just sometimes, pinty, I'll
just I'll sit and hang out in the reception area
of the club reading a paper, and I listen to
(13:29):
the way the receptionists and the frontline staff, the office staff,
greet people, and how they redirect people through the organization.
How do they talk to each other, because they're the
frontline face of the whole organization. Then I might go
and sit in some coaching meetings. Then I'm not going
to have some coffee with players. Then I might hover
around the training environment and in the gym and in
(13:51):
a not creepy way.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
But because what they do screams at you.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
If you're in an organization, they can say, you know,
we're about integrity and honesty and respect. But you spend
a few days there and go, yeah, but what do
they actually do? What am I feeling? What am I seeing?
And then I usually meet with the decision makers and say, guys,
this is what it looks like. This is the behaviors
that I am seeing that then is telling me everything
(14:20):
I need to know about your culture. That's usually the
first step has been very clear. Now, if you haven't
got one hundred and seventy five years of experience that
I've managed to pull out, that feels like that some days.
What I say to all clubs is you can do
a very similar thing is if you're a let's say
(14:40):
you're the manager or a junior rugby club, instead of sitting
and hanging out with the rest of the committee on
game days, just go around and talk to parents, sit
next to players, go and talk to referees. Just be
really in touch with what people are actually doing, not
what you think they're doing. So I find a lot
of places I go pining or say, oh, we're doing
(15:02):
all that stuff Lane because he is our strategic plan
we do and all that stuff way and because we've
got our values written.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
On the wall and we're already doing that stuff.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
And then I said, have you actually gone out and looked,
Have you actually spent time with the people who on
the ground are delivering the experience of your club to
everyone else day to day?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
You probably won't see those behaviors.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
And if I'm not seeing it and they're not living
the behaviors of the organization. Well, nothing's going to change.
Their culture isn't what it should be. Once we've got
that stage and we truly understand what it is, then
you can make some steps towards changing it to what
it should be.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
But there's a.
Speaker 4 (15:43):
Great line by former President Obama where he said, and
other people have said it, but it's attributed to him,
which is all meaningful. Change starts at grassroots and up.
And I'm a big believer that a lot of organizations
will try to get change or renewal by writing a
great strategic plan. That's raally the thing that actually works.
(16:07):
The thing that really works is getting a groundswell of
energy and passion and focus and movement from the people
already delivering it and helping them lift and picking them
up and trying to change things from the bottom up.
To me, works way way better than try to enforce
change from the top down.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Last question, they say, and you've heard this cliche many times,
I'm sure if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Is
it ever the right thing not to change?
Speaker 3 (16:40):
You know?
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Look, I think change for Chaine's sake is not always smart,
But The trick pointy is knowing what the change and
what a knowing what not the change. So, for example,
who you are, so you're every club, every region, every
every team has got its own identity.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
If you like that, you know and you can describe it.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
I often think, you know, when I've been around different
provinces and regions in New Zealand, that even though you're
all Kiwis, it's really different in say Southland to what
it is in Auckland. It's really different in Taranakia the
way it is in Gissy.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Even though you're all Kiwi's and.
Speaker 4 (17:21):
You're passionate about being Kiwi's, There's differences in terms of geography,
differences in culture, a little bit in food, a little
bit of environment, and that's all reflected in the way
you play football or soccer or swimming. Where you are
and what you do in your environment is all reflected
(17:43):
in who you are as a human being. And those
things are permanent. You know, if you're born and raised
and always lived in the Canterbury Plains, chances are the
characteristics and qualities of living, working and playing in the
Canterbury Plans that will always define the way you play.
You don't want to change that, because that's the essence
(18:03):
of who you are. But you can change things like
can we get stronger through different weight training, Can we
eat different foods that are going to make us healthy
and more nutritious. Can we improve our sleep? Can we
change our tactics? All those things are more or less superficial,
and I find that the teams and the clubs who
do well stay true to the really important things that
(18:27):
define who they are, and they change the superficial things
that just give them a little bit of an edge
in some areas, in some of those performance areas. But
understanding who you are and living that, that's at the
absolute heart of all success stories that I see.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Wayne. As always, it's been an education listening to your
instantly usable and very valuable advice. Happy estimate and thanks
as always for your time across New Zealand and ZB
mate dose.
Speaker 4 (18:54):
Remember there is no such thing as eating too many
chocolate easteries.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
I'm not sure that's true in my case, Waine, I'm
sure it isn't yours. Thanks indeed, Wayne Goldsmith Coaching Guru
WG coaching dot com. Incidentally, it says website wgcoaching dot
com for from a whole bunch of really call advice
from Wayne Goldsmith, one of our regulars here on Weekend
Sport on News Talk SEDB.
Speaker 1 (19:18):
For more from Weekend Sport with Jason Fine, listen live
to News Talk SEDB weekends from midday, or follow the
podcast on iHeartRadio
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