December 11, 2024 • 24 mins
The government's plan for the Interislander ferry was light on detail - we don't know what new ferries we're getting, nor how much it will cost. Did the government drop the ball?
Also, the Fair Digitial News Bargaining Bill that forces social media giants to pay for their use of NZ news still hasn't been introduced to Parliament - when will we see it, or is it on ice completely?
To answer those questions, Justice and Media and Communications Minister Paul Goldsmith and Labour's media and Maori Development spokesman Willie Jackson joined Nick Mills for Politics Thursday.
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk Said b focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings, news Talk said Blaine,
can you make your decision.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Of us joining us for politics Thursday.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
This week is Justice Minister and National MP Paul Goldsmith.
Good morning, Paul Modern and Labour's Media and Maori Development
spokesperson Willie Jackson Kilder Willie, and welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
For the very first time, we welcome to Wellington.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Thank you very much. I was born here. I know
a little bit about the placement. Man.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
You were born here.
Speaker 5 (00:51):
I was born here, mate, Wellington Hospital.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I didn't know that. Did you get educated here or.
Speaker 5 (00:57):
I didn't do too well on the education inside his
goldie nose, But now my early education and we're up
and put you to it. So we left when we
were team the old men, transferred on the warf up
to Auckland and been in South Aalkland ever since.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So well I did not know.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Do you have a bit of a love for Wellington?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Okay, and Wellington probably has a bit of love for you,
just a little bit. I don't need to be too much,
but maybe a little bit of love there. Well, let's
start with the fairies. We were promised the fairy announcement yesterday.
We've been waiting a year for it. We never had
a plan b. We got very little. We don't have
new fairies. We don't know what they'll cause, we don't
know when they're arrived, we don't know whether they'll be
(01:34):
rail compatible or not. But we have got a Minister
for rail Winston Peters Paul. This announcement was an announcement
about absolutely nothing, and it was a pretty big disappointment
for the coalition government.
Speaker 6 (01:48):
Ah, I think that's a rather harsh interpretation of it.
I mean, what were true.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
It might be harsh, but true.
Speaker 6 (01:55):
Well, there this time, this time, a year ago, we
came into government and had to deal with the total
basket case, where where there was a range of estimates
of around three billion. Actually there was one paper saying
be going high as four billion dollars in order to
get two new fairies. And so the previous government had
sort of mucked around, mucked around and led it drag
(02:15):
and so we had to deal with it. And the
only way we could deal with we're up against some decisions.
We either had to go go or stop, and we
decided to stop because it was just frankly unaffordable. Now
we've spent the time sort of working out well, okay,
well then how do we ensure that we continue to
have fairies which are important part of State Highway one
effectively to connect the tow Islands. And so we've come
(02:37):
up with a plan that has an agreement across the
Coalish and partners, and so we're into it.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Welly, do you actually think that there's a story in
yesterday's announcement? Do you think there could be something more
in it? Do you think that Nicola will I called
it this morning? This is how I called it this morning.
Nicolo Willis took her deal with the two new fairies
that weren't rail compatible to cabinet. Winston put his hand
up and said, no, no, no, X Minister of Rail.
I know all about rail. That's not right. We don't
(03:03):
want that. Give it to me and I'll sort it
out now, I reckon, that's how we're down.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
You're a better man than than what I thought you were.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
Nick I thought your introduction was magnificent, and you're getting better.
You're getting better by the second.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Mate, I think you've nailed it.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
Absolutely, it was. It was an announcement about an announcement.
It was an absolute Joe. Here's the other thing that
these guys are in chaos. You've got You've got Seymour
announcing one thing.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
Haven't you.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Winston's saying no, that you're off the market's all you do,
know what you're talking about. So they're an absolute mess.
Paul Goldie got the set, he got the boot, you
know he was. He was sort of overseeing it, and
he's a good man, one of the most reliable ones.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
He gets he gets the boot for Winston.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
Well, Winston forgets that he was actually part of the
initial setup of this Kopappa You remember that he is
actually part of us.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Winston's got amnesia.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
We've got no numbers, we don't know where, we don't
know where it's going. Goldie comes in and he invents
this thing about four billion. We always said it was
two point two billion. Grant Robinson was very clear, very
very clear to Kiwi row we ain't going more than
two point two bill. We would have had fiery set
up into twenty six.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Mate.
Speaker 5 (04:07):
These guys don't even know if they're going to get
anything up in twenty twenty nine, h Seymour wants to
go down a privatization route. It is an absolute shambles
And you Nick, one of the best introductions I've had
for a long time.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
So keep going, mate.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Well so well, well look, Paul, to get you on fire,
was there a block and capital?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
No, we have come on, it's got to be a.
Speaker 6 (04:29):
Stre just working out.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
You got the sack over it.
Speaker 6 (04:32):
Well, we've got to get the sack. I've got more
than enough jobs to handle. And so I mean, but
in terms of the uh, you know, just we had
a hard decision at the start of the year, which
is do you just push go on something that could
be three billion, could be more? And and the issue
was that they were much bigger furies. They were trying
(04:54):
to drive a track onto the fury, which nobody, very
few other people in the world do and that had
blown the costs out of the water.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
And saying that you don't want rail on the ferries,
is that what you're saying your same buildings.
Speaker 6 (05:06):
It's it's pretty rare to do that. And everybody else
brings trucks on and on and off. And so the.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Problem that I was speaking, can I just say I'm
sorry to interrupted. It was really rude to me, but no,
and I don't try. I not ontypical therefore, no, no,
don't in general.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Don't land me with anyone else.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
But I mean I was speaking to someone from a
freight company yesterday, yes and a freight company, and he said,
if you don't have rail compatibility, you're going to have
more deaths on the roads because there's going to be
more trucks going up and down the country. And it
makes absolutely perfect sense to have rail capability.
Speaker 6 (05:35):
Why are suddenly most other countries in the wild seem
to manage? And the difficulty, of course, if you're han't
rail enable is that you have to obviously line it
up within three millimeters of this for a track, and
that that adds very significantly to the overall cost structure.
And so that's what we're trying to deal with.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Can I also say that there aren't too many countries?
There will be fit countries, and I don't want text
machine to light up here, but there won't be so many.
Too many countries that have a north and south island
that are so it's state high one.
Speaker 6 (06:02):
There areas that needs the waters, but there's not it's
not unique, and the weather is not unique. We have
you know, every country has weather, and so there's all
these sort of reasons that are given to why things
have to be incredibly expensive. And this is just another example.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I mean, why didn't you just remember, if you're saying
they are expensive, why didn't you just go with.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
The last plan there it's going to be actually cost more.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
I was sorry because because the last plan was just
out of control and turns of the cost. And I'm
sorry to sort of have to break the news to
the people who are listening. But we've inherited massive fischool challenges.
We've got a thirteen billion dollar deficit, We've had an
increase of hundred billion in debt, and so as a country,
(06:48):
we've got to make we've got to be careful about
how we spend our money. And so we were forced
with a decision in January this year. Do we press
go and spend possibly three possibly four billion on two fairies,
or do we go back to the drawing board. And
we have to go back to the drawing board. And
it's taken a while to work our way through how
do we actually aggressive from here? But the world's not
going to come to an end this year. We've got
(07:09):
fairies and and that'll continue. And now we've got a
plan to get the new ones and get them started
and means we were at.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
Now we need to put this to rest. We did
not agree on a three or four billion dollar No,
but that's what you let.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
No.
Speaker 5 (07:22):
No, that's what we were very clear Goaldie to Kiwi
Rail two point two billion, and Seymour actually confirmed us
nick yesterday when he was waffling off and waffling on
about what the cost is.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
But you see, so you believe Willie, I want to
hear this on radio. You believe you could have completed
the deal for two point two billion.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Dollars what our minister at the time had made very
clear to Kwi Rail.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
This is on record.
Speaker 6 (07:47):
That wasn't.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
We cannot help what they come back in terms of
three and four billion. We know these things blow out,
We know that. But you have to be vigilant as
a minister. Right what Robinson was vigilant. He said, two
point two is our envelope. These guys keep grabbing three
and four billion. This is going to go through the roof.
Note we don't know when this is going to end.
We don't know when we're going to get the fairies.
(08:08):
They're saying twenty twenty nine. But Shane Jones when I'm
not sure. You got to see the division in this
coalition government. Seymour is spouting his mouth off everywhere. See
Winston told him to shut up. Yesterday Goldie got the
sack from the job. I mean no, no, Goldie got
sacked yesterday. He said, oh look I've got plenty of jobs.
He got sick, he got sacked. Jollis Now they should
(08:28):
set Nichola Willis because the club public are no wiser.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
And who's it going to cost? Nick? It's going to
cost you in the end. How they're going to pay
for it?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
William Jackson, can I ask you when you saw Nikola Willis?
Speaker 5 (08:39):
Now?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I like Nicola.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
She comes on the show, used to be a regular
on the show until she became Finance Minister. That I
felt that she really was not herself when she was
making that statement. I felt what was her quote? I delivered?
I delivered?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
What did she deliver?
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Well, that's the point.
Speaker 6 (08:54):
What delivered a pleasure?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
A plan?
Speaker 6 (08:57):
Or delivered a plan to replace the two?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
She was saying that what she was saying in My
humble opinion was she was saying, I delivered a deal,
Cabinet didn't buy it. And now Winston's taking this.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
So total and absolute shambles. And as I said, just
tracker seymore. See what you heard Seymour yesterday. He's the
Minister of Disinformation display he's going to you know, this
is a great deal.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
It's going to cost us half the amount.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
Winston said, shut up, David, you know you don't know
what you're talking about. I'm handling this. Of course Onceon
forgot that he was part of us too. Once and
he actually got the deal going, and and and in
the midst of it, my pool mate over here got
the boot.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
It's it's it's easy, very redundancy. No, it's very simple.
We've inherited a whole bunch of things that we're aspiraling
out of control, and it's it's it's difficult and it's
challenging to work your way through to get major infrastructure
things back on to a reasonable keel. And I think, look,
(09:54):
I can understand why everybody wants brand new, fancy fairies tomorrow,
but I think all New Zealanders appreciate that we've got
actually lit within our means, and we've actually got to
be quite disciplined to how we do these things. And
it's like Needen Hospital, It's like all these things. Yes,
it would be great to have then Needen Hospital carried
on with the belts and races approach that was started
by the previous government. We just can't afford as a
(10:15):
government to have these things blowing out to the extent
that we have. Why we've got to do the difficulties safety.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
You know, we need, we need you know, we know that.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
You know that we were told these theories were just
about it was just about over.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
In twenty twenty five, twenty six.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
Now these guys are extending their life what for another
three years?
Speaker 4 (10:32):
You know, you're compromising that.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
All the advice, all the advice that we've had is
that those theories can be maintained and continue to work.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Could it be a game changer for politics in New Zealand?
And I just want to quickly pull out. I've got
to go to an ad break. Could it be a
game changer for politics in New Zealand if something does
seriously happen with these ferries over the next twelve years.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
Well, God for bid, God for bid, and we don't
want that type of thing happening, and I think both
both parties are driven by you know, safety is absolutely paramount.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
But I want to put on.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
Record we are worried because of the advice we were
given and I think God has been given contray different
advice on the last month or so that they were
still sea worthy and they could carry on.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Well.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
I hope that's the case.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Wellington Mornings, Can you be quite while I introduce you? Please?
Will you you're right? Okay there, okay, right, always on.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
We have Willie Jackson and Paul Goldsmith doing our political
Thursday today. Thank you both for coming in. I know
you're both very busy, so it's really nice to have
you and willing to listen. To get an opportunity to
listen to Willie Jackson. He was born in Wellington, so
we'll call them a Walent Todia. To be a few
people just choking on their cup of tea when I
said that, for you both have had the media portfolio,
you know, the struggles of the media better the most.
Speaker 6 (11:45):
He had it and lost it. I have it and
have it lost it because we.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Lost the election. Can I take it off?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
That is that your comeback from the people.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
You've got your own party.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Right, Can I finish my question?
Speaker 3 (12:02):
The Promist Bill that would force the giants like Google
and Meta to pay media companies for using this news
and still hasn't been introduced to Parliament, Paul, We actually
only heard today that it's not been introduced this year.
Speaker 6 (12:14):
Why Well, because it's a complex issue. There were four
areas that I sort of announced about six months ago
that we're looking at. One was sort of tweaking the
rules so that shows like Shortened Street could keep going. Two,
we're going to bring in a broadcasting advertising legislation because
there's a you know, for historical reasons, radio and TV
(12:34):
can't broadcast on Sunday mornings and public holidays, but all
the YouTube and the competitors can, and that makes no sense,
so we're going to change that. Thirdly, we're sort of
just keeping on some funding around local government reporting. The
fourth area was around this online digital media bill, and
everybody around the world is struggling to figure out how
do you wrangle the some of the biggest companies in
(12:58):
the world to contribute in the broader sense to journalism,
but also recognizing that the way that people get their
new and entertainment has changed dramatically and governments can't sort
of turn that tide back, and so the media industry
has to adapt now. So we had plans to do that,
and we're still working through the negotiations and trying to
(13:19):
figure out what's the best way to make it work.
I just noticed this morning in Australia that the government
over there is announcing that they are sort of abandoning
the old framework in coming up with something new. So
it really is a state of flux at the moment.
And so Willie would like me to sort of have
fixed it six months ago.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
But I just ask you, do you think the bill
might be just dead and golden had it not yet?
Speaker 6 (13:42):
But we're working our way through something that will work.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
You don't seund too confident with that.
Speaker 6 (13:47):
Well, yeah, it's not. It's a difficult issue. There are
some people in the media industry who, frankly, I think
that there's eighty hundred million dollars available that can be
sort of plucked out of the air, and that is fanciful.
But there may be some things that we can do
at the margins that will help.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Will Are you offered today to join Paul negotiation team
to get the spill across the line ever helpful help?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Would would you be open to that?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Bool?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Would you?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Would you go and have a coffee with WILLI and
down there and have a bit of a chat.
Speaker 6 (14:16):
Well, in the spirit to bipartisanship, we have many conversations.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
Do you no problem with us?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Mate?
Speaker 5 (14:22):
Were giving each other hard time, but we're also quite
cordial too.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Okay, Willy is it? Is it dead and gone?
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
They are? They just pushing it to one tide.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
It's not dead and gone.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
I just say the Goldie over here, you need to
show some courage here, GOLDI, six months ago you said.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
It was going to happen. He's on record, We're going
to do this. It's going to happen.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
He gave us a special advice. In fact, that cleared
it in the media six months on with no feather
down the track. Thing is, Nick, it's a good thing
for you, it's a good thing for the locals. The
minister's officials, who were my officials, have all told us
the same thing, that there's about forty million in the
marketplace and what said what's said about that's about you
getting paid for your news? These big companies just come
(15:02):
in and use the news as.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
It suits them.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
They should pay a bit of a cour had mate,
but pay a bit of a contribution you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
We know what they're going to do. They're just going
to walk.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
May they tak about a billion? Can I just finish?
Speaker 5 (15:13):
They take about a billion dollars out of New Zealand,
but they're asking about forty or fifty million to come
back into the marketplace. We need the Minister to be resolute.
I'm happy to help a bipartisan thing. We've got to
do anything and everything to help like yourself and your
mates who have been made redundant. We've lost half the
journalists who work in New Zealand in the last years.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I just want to ask you something before I move
on to the next subject. I just quickly want to
ask you about the letter of a bunch of EEI
leaders have sent to King Charles. More than five hundred
leaders have asked the King to intervene in what they
call in the attack your attack on the Treaty of
WAITANGI is this all a bit meaningless?
Speaker 6 (15:47):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
I mean, tell me what you know the King can't do.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Well. I think we all know the King probably won't
do anything. But that just shows you how desperate Maldi are.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
They're tired of the constant attacks from this government, the
minnesover here. Here's that when he came to his credit,
he goes out and he fronts and I give him
credit on that. He fronts all the he's a treaty
minister and he fronts up and he gets it. But
he said, and but they give they give him a
crack because what Chao Mary are sick of Nick is that,
(16:20):
you know, if it's not the sturdy, rotten treaty principles,
billet's an attack on removing treaty, the treaty from legislation
Maori health authority.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
So it's attack after attack. They're desperate. They've written to
the King. I say good on them. Now, is there
anything likely to happen?
Speaker 6 (16:35):
Probably not well, I mean will he talks about to
old mari being concerned about it. I mean not all
Murray think the same obviously, and there's a wide variety
of views on and most Marie are particularly concerned about,
you know, getting a decent job and the cost of living,
law and order, all those things which we're very much
focused on. And in terms of you know that the
treaty issues. Yes, that the noisy previous government went too far. Ultimately,
(16:59):
what we're trying to do is balance the expectations that
Maori have around of course honoring treaty settlements and the
place of the treaty and our and our sort of
government set up, but at the same time never losing
sight of the basic expectations of all kiwis to be
treated equally before the law and have an equal say
(17:20):
what goes on. And the pendulum swung too far into
previous government.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
It's unequal.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
You're not saying that, no, I just want you want
to be able to ensure I mean when you were
bringing in all sorts of changes to local government and
Canterbury where you had people being appointed not elected, and
those are changes that we just don't agree with, and
so we're trying to bring some balance back.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I want to ask about boot Campsick just quickly while
I've got you here, Willy, because I had your boss
in the other day and I said to him that
I looked at your conference in christ Church and looked
pretty white to me and for me, growing up in
New Zealand as a Kiwi, married him and the Labor
Party were hand in hand. They're definitely miles apart in
the moment to party maris taking them away from you,
(18:03):
aren't they?
Speaker 4 (18:04):
You couldn't be more wrong. I won't give you.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
How good eyes I could see it though, just good
you got.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Eyes and congratulate you, congratulations. You can't that you're still
seeing well.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
But but let me say this, No, you couldn't be
more wrong, And let me tell you why if you
look at the elections and you're quite correct, Mary party
won six of the seven seats, so I'll give you that.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
You can't deny that. But we won, Mate, we won
the party.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
But so he said the same thing.
Speaker 5 (18:27):
But let me finish. We got eighty five thousand votes
across seven seats. In party vote they got fifty five,
So that shows you a good selection of Maori in
the Maori seats support us more than they support.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Are you going to try and tell me today, yes,
that married them is going with Labor rather than mart
after after what we saw over the last month.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
So what I'll tell you today is Mary them support
Labor and the Maori part again again and the Malori Party, and.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
That's validated by the votes. That's validated by the support
we get.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
And if you check the if you want to cheer
you and I'm happy to debate it with you. But
if you check the Maori vote and I'm just just
just go on the statistics. If you do a check,
you'll find it over forty percent of the thirty six
to forty percent of total Maori support us.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
And in terms of the party mar you're talking about
twenty percent.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
But in terms of to party Maori, can I just say,
really proud of what they're doing, happy with what they're doing,
but some of the stuff they're doing is but too extreme?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Do you see yourself as a future leader of the party?
But Nico I saw no answer.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Nick I was You've got to listen here.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
I was the leader of the Maori Party, the first
Maori Party.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Could you see yourself?
Speaker 6 (19:37):
No is fudging He's fudging.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
No, because I've already done that. I set up as
part of that, you must be leader of the labor
part of the Maori Party.
Speaker 5 (19:46):
Police in the late nineties manamalto Hockey in government and
I set up the initial Maori Party.
Speaker 6 (19:53):
Ok, I got to move I've got to move to
He's talking about Maria and supporting laborers. Again, as if
all Mari think the same, they don't. Many of Mari
support the National Party as well. The reality is that
the a wide variety of you, so that the factors
that labor are losing Mini Mari votes are also losing
many working class votes. And that's why there's been a.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Time they going to the Green marriage going to the
party in labor, and.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
Another the struggling and you know, well, yeah, we look
at the poles and the poles are more or less.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
The works is the one that they run.
Speaker 6 (20:24):
I suppose the poles are more or less we were
one year ago, and that's a good progress.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
I'd love to have you for the whole hour, and
I don't because I know you guys have got to go.
So I've got one final, one final quick question that
I've got to do. We've heard a lot about the
boot camps in the last week. One young person was
killed tragically in a car accident, and then another two
abscond and were allegedly found in a stolen car with
allegedly with a machete and religidly.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
We've done some crime, Willie. I'm going to start with
you on this.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Have have they really, I know that you have been
personally very critical of the boot camps.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Are they doing any good? Are they? Are they the
right plan?
Speaker 4 (20:59):
No, they're not. They're not. And I've seen this from
the start. They don't take into account. Look, ninety nine
percent of those kids are malting nick.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
So we I just go to people like Professor Mason
Jury who said, it doesn't take in monarchy, tongue, it
doesn't take in or you don't think that any of
those things, and it's going to fail. And they have failed.
Look at look at where it is at the moment.
Is one person's died. It's just it's just the absolute shambles.
They need to abandon this because it's a it's an insult,
(21:28):
not just a martyrd and to this nation, to good people.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Who care about our kids, like you.
Speaker 5 (21:32):
Like Goldie Well, I'm not just not just a maloring
fingers a New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
But they ain't working with what.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Clearly.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I mean just I really want to get your view
on this, But you know you can't say it was
success the first one, can you?
Speaker 6 (21:46):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Hang on?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I mean there were ones died that one person's dead.
Speaker 6 (21:49):
But that was in the correct and these things happened,
but that we're talking about the most you know, difficult,
hardcore youth offenders. And yes, you're not going to sort
of have miracle successes with all of them. That's not
the point. What what failed over the last six years
was this approach that whatever happens for a young person,
that's not their fault, it's the fault of everybody else
(22:12):
and there are no consequences. And we saw the outcome
of that with all the ram raids, and you know,
everybody in the country is aware of the sense of
disorder that we had a year ago, and so we're
very focused on turning that around. We're making good progress
in terms of restoring a sense of public safety and
so that the youth camps are part of it. Another
tool available. Even even even Saint jacindra Ardun recognized that
(22:37):
that that we needed more tools to deal with a
small group of serious youth offenders, and that's what these can.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I just ask you a quick question on this. Is
there any difference between what me and you would have
grown up with bor stools in the spook camp.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
No, uh, there's there's some key differences. You know that
at the LS, vehicles.
Speaker 6 (22:53):
No limited services, so that's what it's based on. So
it's it's getting good military style mentors helping young people.
So it's one one route.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
Can I just say I'm an LS the ambassive, well
the all right, So i do know a bit about
this course, right, and I've watched how young ones can transition.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I've seen it all.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
There's a difference there those young ones choose to go
on those courses. There's a huge difference these young ones
are put on these courses. And so I'm no sort
of lovey lovey dovey. The thing with young ones. I've
worked with them all my life. You know they need
some hard treatment. They need some I think we all
know that. But I think you can see that this
has been a disaster.
Speaker 6 (23:30):
You know, like, no come on to give it.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
Look like we've had one die goldie with these question
marks on another one, this quest And I'm not going
to go as far as others, and.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
No one wants to politicize. I don't actually want to
politicize this. I want to see some results.
Speaker 5 (23:45):
I'll work with these guys, Nick and I have worked.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
With them in the past. Now this is the nightmare
and a disaster.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
I know you both got to go, and I'm getting
yelled at, so I've got to let you go because
you've got meetings to go on to. It's lovely to
have you both here. Merry Christmas to you and your
far nows and your family. I hope that you have
a really good way to appreciate the people that actually
give their lives to politics. So I appreciate both of
you in your own individual ways. Great to have you
on the studio and enjoy your last week and morning
to look for you.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
Your faro, make particularly that Steven's Farno. Wonderful family.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Yoda Yoda.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
You're listening to the Wellington Mornings podcast with Nick Mills
from News Talk Said b focusing in on the issues
that matter politics Thursday on Wellington Mornings, news Talk said Blaine,
can you make your decision.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Of us joining us for politics Thursday.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
This week is Justice Minister and National MP Paul Goldsmith.
Good morning, Paul Modern and Labour's Media and Maori Development
spokesperson Willie Jackson Kilder Willie, and welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
For the very first time, we welcome to Wellington.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Thank you very much. I was born here. I know
a little bit about the placement. Man.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
You were born here.
Speaker 5 (00:51):
I was born here, mate, Wellington Hospital.
Speaker 2 (00:55):
I didn't know that. Did you get educated here or.
Speaker 5 (00:57):
I didn't do too well on the education inside his
goldie nose, But now my early education and we're up
and put you to it. So we left when we
were team the old men, transferred on the warf up
to Auckland and been in South Aalkland ever since.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
So well I did not know.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
Do you have a bit of a love for Wellington?
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Okay, and Wellington probably has a bit of love for you,
just a little bit. I don't need to be too much,
but maybe a little bit of love there. Well, let's
start with the fairies. We were promised the fairy announcement yesterday.
We've been waiting a year for it. We never had
a plan b. We got very little. We don't have
new fairies. We don't know what they'll cause, we don't
know when they're arrived, we don't know whether they'll be
(01:34):
rail compatible or not. But we have got a Minister
for rail Winston Peters Paul. This announcement was an announcement
about absolutely nothing, and it was a pretty big disappointment
for the coalition government.
Speaker 6 (01:48):
Ah, I think that's a rather harsh interpretation of it.
I mean, what were true.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
It might be harsh, but true.
Speaker 6 (01:55):
Well, there this time, this time, a year ago, we
came into government and had to deal with the total
basket case, where where there was a range of estimates
of around three billion. Actually there was one paper saying
be going high as four billion dollars in order to
get two new fairies. And so the previous government had
sort of mucked around, mucked around and led it drag
(02:15):
and so we had to deal with it. And the
only way we could deal with we're up against some decisions.
We either had to go go or stop, and we
decided to stop because it was just frankly unaffordable. Now
we've spent the time sort of working out well, okay,
well then how do we ensure that we continue to
have fairies which are important part of State Highway one
effectively to connect the tow Islands. And so we've come
(02:37):
up with a plan that has an agreement across the
Coalish and partners, and so we're into it.
Speaker 3 (02:42):
Welly, do you actually think that there's a story in
yesterday's announcement? Do you think there could be something more
in it? Do you think that Nicola will I called
it this morning? This is how I called it this morning.
Nicolo Willis took her deal with the two new fairies
that weren't rail compatible to cabinet. Winston put his hand
up and said, no, no, no, X Minister of Rail.
I know all about rail. That's not right. We don't
(03:03):
want that. Give it to me and I'll sort it
out now, I reckon, that's how we're down.
Speaker 4 (03:07):
You're a better man than than what I thought you were.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
Nick I thought your introduction was magnificent, and you're getting better.
You're getting better by the second.
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Mate, I think you've nailed it.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
Absolutely, it was. It was an announcement about an announcement.
It was an absolute Joe. Here's the other thing that
these guys are in chaos. You've got You've got Seymour
announcing one thing.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
Haven't you.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Winston's saying no, that you're off the market's all you do,
know what you're talking about. So they're an absolute mess.
Paul Goldie got the set, he got the boot, you
know he was. He was sort of overseeing it, and
he's a good man, one of the most reliable ones.
Speaker 4 (03:38):
He gets he gets the boot for Winston.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
Well, Winston forgets that he was actually part of the
initial setup of this Kopappa You remember that he is
actually part of us.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Winston's got amnesia.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
We've got no numbers, we don't know where, we don't
know where it's going. Goldie comes in and he invents
this thing about four billion. We always said it was
two point two billion. Grant Robinson was very clear, very
very clear to Kiwi row we ain't going more than
two point two bill. We would have had fiery set
up into twenty six.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Mate.
Speaker 5 (04:07):
These guys don't even know if they're going to get
anything up in twenty twenty nine, h Seymour wants to
go down a privatization route. It is an absolute shambles
And you Nick, one of the best introductions I've had
for a long time.
Speaker 4 (04:20):
So keep going, mate.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Well so well, well look, Paul, to get you on fire,
was there a block and capital?
Speaker 2 (04:27):
No, we have come on, it's got to be a.
Speaker 6 (04:29):
Stre just working out.
Speaker 4 (04:31):
You got the sack over it.
Speaker 6 (04:32):
Well, we've got to get the sack. I've got more
than enough jobs to handle. And so I mean, but
in terms of the uh, you know, just we had
a hard decision at the start of the year, which
is do you just push go on something that could
be three billion, could be more? And and the issue
was that they were much bigger furies. They were trying
(04:54):
to drive a track onto the fury, which nobody, very
few other people in the world do and that had
blown the costs out of the water.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
And saying that you don't want rail on the ferries,
is that what you're saying your same buildings.
Speaker 6 (05:06):
It's it's pretty rare to do that. And everybody else
brings trucks on and on and off. And so the.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Problem that I was speaking, can I just say I'm
sorry to interrupted. It was really rude to me, but no,
and I don't try. I not ontypical therefore, no, no,
don't in general.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
Don't land me with anyone else.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
But I mean I was speaking to someone from a
freight company yesterday, yes and a freight company, and he said,
if you don't have rail compatibility, you're going to have
more deaths on the roads because there's going to be
more trucks going up and down the country. And it
makes absolutely perfect sense to have rail capability.
Speaker 6 (05:35):
Why are suddenly most other countries in the wild seem
to manage? And the difficulty, of course, if you're han't
rail enable is that you have to obviously line it
up within three millimeters of this for a track, and
that that adds very significantly to the overall cost structure.
And so that's what we're trying to deal with.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Can I also say that there aren't too many countries?
There will be fit countries, and I don't want text
machine to light up here, but there won't be so many.
Too many countries that have a north and south island
that are so it's state high one.
Speaker 6 (06:02):
There areas that needs the waters, but there's not it's
not unique, and the weather is not unique. We have
you know, every country has weather, and so there's all
these sort of reasons that are given to why things
have to be incredibly expensive. And this is just another example.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
I mean, why didn't you just remember, if you're saying
they are expensive, why didn't you just go with.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
The last plan there it's going to be actually cost more.
Speaker 6 (06:25):
I was sorry because because the last plan was just
out of control and turns of the cost. And I'm
sorry to sort of have to break the news to
the people who are listening. But we've inherited massive fischool challenges.
We've got a thirteen billion dollar deficit, We've had an
increase of hundred billion in debt, and so as a country,
(06:48):
we've got to make we've got to be careful about
how we spend our money. And so we were forced
with a decision in January this year. Do we press
go and spend possibly three possibly four billion on two fairies,
or do we go back to the drawing board. And
we have to go back to the drawing board. And
it's taken a while to work our way through how
do we actually aggressive from here? But the world's not
going to come to an end this year. We've got
(07:09):
fairies and and that'll continue. And now we've got a
plan to get the new ones and get them started
and means we were at.
Speaker 5 (07:16):
Now we need to put this to rest. We did
not agree on a three or four billion dollar No,
but that's what you let.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
No.
Speaker 5 (07:22):
No, that's what we were very clear Goaldie to Kiwi
Rail two point two billion, and Seymour actually confirmed us
nick yesterday when he was waffling off and waffling on
about what the cost is.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
But you see, so you believe Willie, I want to
hear this on radio. You believe you could have completed
the deal for two point two billion.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Dollars what our minister at the time had made very
clear to Kwi Rail.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
This is on record.
Speaker 6 (07:47):
That wasn't.
Speaker 5 (07:48):
We cannot help what they come back in terms of
three and four billion. We know these things blow out,
We know that. But you have to be vigilant as
a minister. Right what Robinson was vigilant. He said, two
point two is our envelope. These guys keep grabbing three
and four billion. This is going to go through the roof.
Note we don't know when this is going to end.
We don't know when we're going to get the fairies.
(08:08):
They're saying twenty twenty nine. But Shane Jones when I'm
not sure. You got to see the division in this
coalition government. Seymour is spouting his mouth off everywhere. See
Winston told him to shut up. Yesterday Goldie got the
sack from the job. I mean no, no, Goldie got
sacked yesterday. He said, oh look I've got plenty of jobs.
He got sick, he got sacked. Jollis Now they should
(08:28):
set Nichola Willis because the club public are no wiser.
Speaker 4 (08:32):
And who's it going to cost? Nick? It's going to
cost you in the end. How they're going to pay
for it?
Speaker 3 (08:35):
William Jackson, can I ask you when you saw Nikola Willis?
Speaker 5 (08:39):
Now?
Speaker 2 (08:39):
I like Nicola.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
She comes on the show, used to be a regular
on the show until she became Finance Minister. That I
felt that she really was not herself when she was
making that statement. I felt what was her quote? I delivered?
I delivered?
Speaker 2 (08:52):
What did she deliver?
Speaker 4 (08:53):
Well, that's the point.
Speaker 6 (08:54):
What delivered a pleasure?
Speaker 2 (08:56):
A plan?
Speaker 6 (08:57):
Or delivered a plan to replace the two?
Speaker 3 (08:59):
She was saying that what she was saying in My
humble opinion was she was saying, I delivered a deal,
Cabinet didn't buy it. And now Winston's taking this.
Speaker 5 (09:08):
So total and absolute shambles. And as I said, just
tracker seymore. See what you heard Seymour yesterday. He's the
Minister of Disinformation display he's going to you know, this
is a great deal.
Speaker 4 (09:18):
It's going to cost us half the amount.
Speaker 5 (09:20):
Winston said, shut up, David, you know you don't know
what you're talking about. I'm handling this. Of course Onceon
forgot that he was part of us too. Once and
he actually got the deal going, and and and in
the midst of it, my pool mate over here got
the boot.
Speaker 6 (09:33):
It's it's it's easy, very redundancy. No, it's very simple.
We've inherited a whole bunch of things that we're aspiraling
out of control, and it's it's it's difficult and it's
challenging to work your way through to get major infrastructure
things back on to a reasonable keel. And I think, look,
(09:54):
I can understand why everybody wants brand new, fancy fairies tomorrow,
but I think all New Zealanders appreciate that we've got
actually lit within our means, and we've actually got to
be quite disciplined to how we do these things. And
it's like Needen Hospital, It's like all these things. Yes,
it would be great to have then Needen Hospital carried
on with the belts and races approach that was started
by the previous government. We just can't afford as a
(10:15):
government to have these things blowing out to the extent
that we have. Why we've got to do the difficulties safety.
Speaker 4 (10:21):
You know, we need, we need you know, we know that.
Speaker 5 (10:24):
You know that we were told these theories were just
about it was just about over.
Speaker 4 (10:27):
In twenty twenty five, twenty six.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
Now these guys are extending their life what for another
three years?
Speaker 4 (10:32):
You know, you're compromising that.
Speaker 6 (10:35):
All the advice, all the advice that we've had is
that those theories can be maintained and continue to work.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
Could it be a game changer for politics in New Zealand?
And I just want to quickly pull out. I've got
to go to an ad break. Could it be a
game changer for politics in New Zealand if something does
seriously happen with these ferries over the next twelve years.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
Well, God for bid, God for bid, and we don't
want that type of thing happening, and I think both
both parties are driven by you know, safety is absolutely paramount.
Speaker 4 (11:00):
But I want to put on.
Speaker 5 (11:01):
Record we are worried because of the advice we were
given and I think God has been given contray different
advice on the last month or so that they were
still sea worthy and they could carry on.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Well.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
I hope that's the case.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Wellington Mornings, Can you be quite while I introduce you? Please?
Will you you're right? Okay there, okay, right, always on.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
We have Willie Jackson and Paul Goldsmith doing our political
Thursday today. Thank you both for coming in. I know
you're both very busy, so it's really nice to have
you and willing to listen. To get an opportunity to
listen to Willie Jackson. He was born in Wellington, so
we'll call them a Walent Todia. To be a few
people just choking on their cup of tea when I
said that, for you both have had the media portfolio,
you know, the struggles of the media better the most.
Speaker 6 (11:45):
He had it and lost it. I have it and
have it lost it because we.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Lost the election. Can I take it off?
Speaker 2 (11:52):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:53):
That is that your comeback from the people.
Speaker 5 (11:58):
You've got your own party.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Right, Can I finish my question?
Speaker 3 (12:02):
The Promist Bill that would force the giants like Google
and Meta to pay media companies for using this news
and still hasn't been introduced to Parliament, Paul, We actually
only heard today that it's not been introduced this year.
Speaker 6 (12:14):
Why Well, because it's a complex issue. There were four
areas that I sort of announced about six months ago
that we're looking at. One was sort of tweaking the
rules so that shows like Shortened Street could keep going. Two,
we're going to bring in a broadcasting advertising legislation because
there's a you know, for historical reasons, radio and TV
(12:34):
can't broadcast on Sunday mornings and public holidays, but all
the YouTube and the competitors can, and that makes no sense,
so we're going to change that. Thirdly, we're sort of
just keeping on some funding around local government reporting. The
fourth area was around this online digital media bill, and
everybody around the world is struggling to figure out how
do you wrangle the some of the biggest companies in
(12:58):
the world to contribute in the broader sense to journalism,
but also recognizing that the way that people get their
new and entertainment has changed dramatically and governments can't sort
of turn that tide back, and so the media industry
has to adapt now. So we had plans to do that,
and we're still working through the negotiations and trying to
(13:19):
figure out what's the best way to make it work.
I just noticed this morning in Australia that the government
over there is announcing that they are sort of abandoning
the old framework in coming up with something new. So
it really is a state of flux at the moment.
And so Willie would like me to sort of have
fixed it six months ago.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
But I just ask you, do you think the bill
might be just dead and golden had it not yet?
Speaker 6 (13:42):
But we're working our way through something that will work.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
You don't seund too confident with that.
Speaker 6 (13:47):
Well, yeah, it's not. It's a difficult issue. There are
some people in the media industry who, frankly, I think
that there's eighty hundred million dollars available that can be
sort of plucked out of the air, and that is fanciful.
But there may be some things that we can do
at the margins that will help.
Speaker 3 (14:04):
Will Are you offered today to join Paul negotiation team
to get the spill across the line ever helpful help?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
Would would you be open to that?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Bool?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Would you?
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Would you go and have a coffee with WILLI and
down there and have a bit of a chat.
Speaker 6 (14:16):
Well, in the spirit to bipartisanship, we have many conversations.
Speaker 5 (14:20):
Do you no problem with us?
Speaker 4 (14:22):
Mate?
Speaker 5 (14:22):
Were giving each other hard time, but we're also quite
cordial too.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Okay, Willy is it? Is it dead and gone?
Speaker 1 (14:27):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (14:28):
They are? They just pushing it to one tide.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
It's not dead and gone.
Speaker 5 (14:31):
I just say the Goldie over here, you need to
show some courage here, GOLDI, six months ago you said.
Speaker 4 (14:36):
It was going to happen. He's on record, We're going
to do this. It's going to happen.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
He gave us a special advice. In fact, that cleared
it in the media six months on with no feather
down the track. Thing is, Nick, it's a good thing
for you, it's a good thing for the locals. The
minister's officials, who were my officials, have all told us
the same thing, that there's about forty million in the
marketplace and what said what's said about that's about you
getting paid for your news? These big companies just come
(15:02):
in and use the news as.
Speaker 4 (15:03):
It suits them.
Speaker 5 (15:04):
They should pay a bit of a cour had mate,
but pay a bit of a contribution you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (15:09):
We know what they're going to do. They're just going
to walk.
Speaker 4 (15:11):
May they tak about a billion? Can I just finish?
Speaker 5 (15:13):
They take about a billion dollars out of New Zealand,
but they're asking about forty or fifty million to come
back into the marketplace. We need the Minister to be resolute.
I'm happy to help a bipartisan thing. We've got to
do anything and everything to help like yourself and your
mates who have been made redundant. We've lost half the
journalists who work in New Zealand in the last years.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
I just want to ask you something before I move
on to the next subject. I just quickly want to
ask you about the letter of a bunch of EEI
leaders have sent to King Charles. More than five hundred
leaders have asked the King to intervene in what they
call in the attack your attack on the Treaty of
WAITANGI is this all a bit meaningless?
Speaker 6 (15:47):
Is it?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
I mean, tell me what you know the King can't do.
Speaker 4 (15:52):
Well. I think we all know the King probably won't
do anything. But that just shows you how desperate Maldi are.
Speaker 5 (15:59):
They're tired of the constant attacks from this government, the
minnesover here. Here's that when he came to his credit,
he goes out and he fronts and I give him
credit on that. He fronts all the he's a treaty
minister and he fronts up and he gets it. But
he said, and but they give they give him a
crack because what Chao Mary are sick of Nick is that,
(16:20):
you know, if it's not the sturdy, rotten treaty principles,
billet's an attack on removing treaty, the treaty from legislation
Maori health authority.
Speaker 4 (16:28):
So it's attack after attack. They're desperate. They've written to
the King. I say good on them. Now, is there
anything likely to happen?
Speaker 6 (16:35):
Probably not well, I mean will he talks about to
old mari being concerned about it. I mean not all
Murray think the same obviously, and there's a wide variety
of views on and most Marie are particularly concerned about,
you know, getting a decent job and the cost of living,
law and order, all those things which we're very much
focused on. And in terms of you know that the
treaty issues. Yes, that the noisy previous government went too far. Ultimately,
(16:59):
what we're trying to do is balance the expectations that
Maori have around of course honoring treaty settlements and the
place of the treaty and our and our sort of
government set up, but at the same time never losing
sight of the basic expectations of all kiwis to be
treated equally before the law and have an equal say
(17:20):
what goes on. And the pendulum swung too far into
previous government.
Speaker 4 (17:25):
It's unequal.
Speaker 6 (17:26):
You're not saying that, no, I just want you want
to be able to ensure I mean when you were
bringing in all sorts of changes to local government and
Canterbury where you had people being appointed not elected, and
those are changes that we just don't agree with, and
so we're trying to bring some balance back.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I want to ask about boot Campsick just quickly while
I've got you here, Willy, because I had your boss
in the other day and I said to him that
I looked at your conference in christ Church and looked
pretty white to me and for me, growing up in
New Zealand as a Kiwi, married him and the Labor
Party were hand in hand. They're definitely miles apart in
the moment to party maris taking them away from you,
(18:03):
aren't they?
Speaker 4 (18:04):
You couldn't be more wrong. I won't give you.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
How good eyes I could see it though, just good
you got.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Eyes and congratulate you, congratulations. You can't that you're still
seeing well.
Speaker 5 (18:15):
But but let me say this, No, you couldn't be
more wrong, And let me tell you why if you
look at the elections and you're quite correct, Mary party
won six of the seven seats, so I'll give you that.
Speaker 4 (18:23):
You can't deny that. But we won, Mate, we won
the party.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
But so he said the same thing.
Speaker 5 (18:27):
But let me finish. We got eighty five thousand votes
across seven seats. In party vote they got fifty five,
So that shows you a good selection of Maori in
the Maori seats support us more than they support.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Are you going to try and tell me today, yes,
that married them is going with Labor rather than mart
after after what we saw over the last month.
Speaker 5 (18:49):
So what I'll tell you today is Mary them support
Labor and the Maori part again again and the Malori Party, and.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
That's validated by the votes. That's validated by the support
we get.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
And if you check the if you want to cheer
you and I'm happy to debate it with you. But
if you check the Maori vote and I'm just just
just go on the statistics. If you do a check,
you'll find it over forty percent of the thirty six
to forty percent of total Maori support us.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
And in terms of the party mar you're talking about
twenty percent.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
But in terms of to party Maori, can I just say,
really proud of what they're doing, happy with what they're doing,
but some of the stuff they're doing is but too extreme?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Do you see yourself as a future leader of the party?
But Nico I saw no answer.
Speaker 4 (19:30):
Nick I was You've got to listen here.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
I was the leader of the Maori Party, the first
Maori Party.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Could you see yourself?
Speaker 6 (19:37):
No is fudging He's fudging.
Speaker 4 (19:40):
No, because I've already done that. I set up as
part of that, you must be leader of the labor
part of the Maori Party.
Speaker 5 (19:46):
Police in the late nineties manamalto Hockey in government and
I set up the initial Maori Party.
Speaker 6 (19:53):
Ok, I got to move I've got to move to
He's talking about Maria and supporting laborers. Again, as if
all Mari think the same, they don't. Many of Mari
support the National Party as well. The reality is that
the a wide variety of you, so that the factors
that labor are losing Mini Mari votes are also losing
many working class votes. And that's why there's been a.
Speaker 3 (20:13):
Time they going to the Green marriage going to the
party in labor, and.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
Another the struggling and you know, well, yeah, we look
at the poles and the poles are more or less.
Speaker 4 (20:22):
The works is the one that they run.
Speaker 6 (20:24):
I suppose the poles are more or less we were
one year ago, and that's a good progress.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
I'd love to have you for the whole hour, and
I don't because I know you guys have got to go.
So I've got one final, one final quick question that
I've got to do. We've heard a lot about the
boot camps in the last week. One young person was
killed tragically in a car accident, and then another two
abscond and were allegedly found in a stolen car with
allegedly with a machete and religidly.
Speaker 2 (20:45):
We've done some crime, Willie. I'm going to start with
you on this.
Speaker 3 (20:50):
Have have they really, I know that you have been
personally very critical of the boot camps.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Are they doing any good? Are they? Are they the
right plan?
Speaker 4 (20:59):
No, they're not. They're not. And I've seen this from
the start. They don't take into account. Look, ninety nine
percent of those kids are malting nick.
Speaker 5 (21:08):
So we I just go to people like Professor Mason
Jury who said, it doesn't take in monarchy, tongue, it
doesn't take in or you don't think that any of
those things, and it's going to fail. And they have failed.
Look at look at where it is at the moment.
Is one person's died. It's just it's just the absolute shambles.
They need to abandon this because it's a it's an insult,
(21:28):
not just a martyrd and to this nation, to good people.
Speaker 4 (21:31):
Who care about our kids, like you.
Speaker 5 (21:32):
Like Goldie Well, I'm not just not just a maloring
fingers a New Zealand.
Speaker 4 (21:35):
But they ain't working with what.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
Clearly.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I mean just I really want to get your view
on this, But you know you can't say it was
success the first one, can you?
Speaker 6 (21:46):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (21:46):
Hang on?
Speaker 2 (21:47):
I mean there were ones died that one person's dead.
Speaker 6 (21:49):
But that was in the correct and these things happened,
but that we're talking about the most you know, difficult,
hardcore youth offenders. And yes, you're not going to sort
of have miracle successes with all of them. That's not
the point. What what failed over the last six years
was this approach that whatever happens for a young person,
that's not their fault, it's the fault of everybody else
(22:12):
and there are no consequences. And we saw the outcome
of that with all the ram raids, and you know,
everybody in the country is aware of the sense of
disorder that we had a year ago, and so we're
very focused on turning that around. We're making good progress
in terms of restoring a sense of public safety and
so that the youth camps are part of it. Another
tool available. Even even even Saint jacindra Ardun recognized that
(22:37):
that that we needed more tools to deal with a
small group of serious youth offenders, and that's what these can.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
I just ask you a quick question on this. Is
there any difference between what me and you would have
grown up with bor stools in the spook camp.
Speaker 4 (22:49):
No, uh, there's there's some key differences. You know that
at the LS, vehicles.
Speaker 6 (22:53):
No limited services, so that's what it's based on. So
it's it's getting good military style mentors helping young people.
So it's one one route.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
Can I just say I'm an LS the ambassive, well
the all right, So i do know a bit about
this course, right, and I've watched how young ones can transition.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I've seen it all.
Speaker 5 (23:11):
There's a difference there those young ones choose to go
on those courses. There's a huge difference these young ones
are put on these courses. And so I'm no sort
of lovey lovey dovey. The thing with young ones. I've
worked with them all my life. You know they need
some hard treatment. They need some I think we all
know that. But I think you can see that this
has been a disaster.
Speaker 6 (23:30):
You know, like, no come on to give it.
Speaker 5 (23:33):
Look like we've had one die goldie with these question
marks on another one, this quest And I'm not going
to go as far as others, and.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
No one wants to politicize. I don't actually want to
politicize this. I want to see some results.
Speaker 5 (23:45):
I'll work with these guys, Nick and I have worked.
Speaker 4 (23:47):
With them in the past. Now this is the nightmare
and a disaster.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
I know you both got to go, and I'm getting
yelled at, so I've got to let you go because
you've got meetings to go on to. It's lovely to
have you both here. Merry Christmas to you and your
far nows and your family. I hope that you have
a really good way to appreciate the people that actually
give their lives to politics. So I appreciate both of
you in your own individual ways. Great to have you
on the studio and enjoy your last week and morning
to look for you.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
Your faro, make particularly that Steven's Farno. Wonderful family.
Speaker 4 (24:15):
Yoda Yoda.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
For more from Wellington Mornings with Nick Mills, listen live
to news Talks It'd Be Wellington from nine am weekdays,
or follow the podcast on iHeartRadio
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