March 12, 2025 • 26 mins
Olga Khazan, author of Me, But Better, explores the science of personality change
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode is going to be a longer one part of
the series where I interview fascinating people about how they
take their days from great to awesome and how the
(00:24):
rest of us can as well. So today I am
delighted to welcome Olga Hasan to the show. Olga is
the author of a brand new book that is called
Me But Better and about whether it is possible to
change your personality.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
So, Olga, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, so, why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners.
Tell us a little bit about you.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yeah, Well, I'm Olga has On. I'm a staff writer
at The Atlantic magazine. I've been there for more than
a decade now, and I'm the author of two books,
and Me But Better is my most recent book. It's
based on a magazine cover story that I wrote a
couple of years ago, and it's based on my own
personal experience of trying to change my personality for the better.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Which is interesting, I mean, because you seem like a.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Perfectly lovely person, so very curious what inspired this, what
made you think about changing your personality?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Yeah, well, thank you. Well so, yeah, So the way
you seem to other people is one element of personality,
but another element of personality is how you feel, and
whether you are able to accomplish your goals in the
way that you would like, and whether you enjoy your life.
And what I found was that often my reactions to
things were sort of not helping me. They were kind
of holding me back. So I would have a perfectly
(01:43):
fine day, but with maybe some minor setbacks. In the
intro of the book, I talk about a day where
I got a bad haircut and then got photos taken
that didn't look good, and then I got stuck in traffic,
and all of those things really just kind of ate
away me until I had this like huge meltdown that
was totally out of proportion to what was going on.
(02:06):
And I kind of realized that that variations on that
happened kind of a lot, and I wanted to see
what I could do about that. So that is kind
of what started me out on my journey.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, I mean, do you think that's a common thing
of people sort of having that tendency to melt down over.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I mean, what are in essence first world problems?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, I mean, so it's that tendency is related to
the personality trait of neuroticism, which is basically just like
depression and anxiety, and a component of that is like
this this feeling that like you get overwhelmed easily, Like
when too many things happen, You're not like, bless this mess,
what a day. You're just like, oh my god, I
(02:45):
can't take it anymore, you know. And so I was
definitely in that second category, and I was trying to
kind of get out of that and more into the
blessed this mess territory.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yes, we all need the motivational quotes up on the wall, right, Yes, yeah,
a cross stitch sampler saying those things.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Well, but here's the question for you.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I mean, are some personalities better than others? I mean,
how can we even think about this?
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, So there's five traits that make up personality. So
it's openness to experiences, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and then actually
the opposite of neuroticism, emotional stability, is the one that
you want to have, and generally being higher on all
five of those traits is considered like more adaptive in
(03:33):
science terms, or kind of just healthier and better for you.
So people who are a little bit more agreeable, a
little bit more conscientious, they tend to just like be
a little bit more successful, Like they make more money,
they have more friends, they you know, are healthier. So
you do kind of want to be higher on all
of those traits, but you don't necessarily want to be
(03:54):
like all the way at the extreme one hundred percent
more so than everyone else, because that can also start
to be you know, a little bit a little bit off,
like obsessive or just just kind of not quite right.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, as somebody who is one hundred percent agreeable would
be something of a doormat.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I say, exactly exactly. You want to be disagreeable sometimes.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, sometimes when you're disagreeing with the right things to
disagree with. But I mean, why are we who we are?
I mean, is this sort of in the genetic mix
or how we're raised? I mean, how do we get
our personalities?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah, so we get about forty to sixty percent of
our personalities from our parents. Doesn't mean we're exactly like
our parents, but just that's the part that's sort of inherited.
It's in our genes. So if your parents are sort
of extreme extroverts, there's a good chance that you will
also be somewhat extroverted. But there's like a good chunk
(04:49):
of that about half that is also just comes from
your environment. And it's not totally how your parents raised
you either. It's sort of like where you grew up,
who your friends are, what kind of job you end
up having, whether you get married, you know, what kind
of work you pursue, whether you go to college. All
of those things kind of form your personality and develop
(05:12):
who you are as a person. And it's it's really
hard to say, like which of those factors is the
most important. One researcher described it to me as more
like a tapestry where everything kind of comes together and
creates kind of who you are.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, well that's an interesting thing to think about.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I mean, what is personality then, and like the definition
of personality versus just how I'm sort of responding to
my life or how you know, things come to me.
I guess what makes something personality?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Oh that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
So for a while there there were some researchers like
Carol Dweck was one of them who basically thought like,
there's no such thing as personality, and all we do
is just respond to situations like, something bad happens, you
respond this way. Something good happens, you respond that way.
But I think it's kind of both. So it's it's
sort of like how you typically respond to situations, right,
(06:13):
And kind of other researchers who are not of that
school kind of think it's also personality. One way of
looking at it as sort of how you pursue goals,
and and that personality actually helps you attain your goals.
So if you think about a trait like conscientiousness, you know,
always being on time, being super organized, you know, kind
(06:35):
of knowing where all of your tax forms are, those
things help you achieve certain goals. You probably, you know,
are going to be on time to your job interview,
so you're going to get that job. You know, you
probably are going to eat right, and so you're going
to live a little bit longer. If those are goals
that you have, that element of your personality helps you
pursue your goals. So that's kind of a newer way
(06:58):
of thinking about it as opposed to things happen and
we react in various ways.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, and the point of your book is that you
might be able to actually change some of these. I
mean it sounds like, again, you know, if forty to
sixty percent is from your genetic background, it's pretty hard
to change that. But that still leaves a reasonable chunk
that we might be able to modify slightly. I mean,
is this doable? I'm just thinking about something like being conscientious.
(07:28):
I mean, it does, in fact help to know where
your tax forms are and to know how to get
to a job interview on time. But if you're not
naturally inclined that way, I mean, how would one even
go about becoming the sort of person who knows where
their tax forms are?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Yeah? So I actually started out really conscientious, so that
wasn't a trait that I tried to change personally. But
I did interview a lot of people who became conscientious
for the book, and they were all exactly what you describe,
like they had no idea how to start. You know.
One of them was like a freelance writer who quit
her job to freelance write and then didn't end up
(08:05):
doing any writing because she just like was like, I
don't know how do I begin? Where do I go
from here. Another one was like this this guy who
wanted to become a professional psychologist, but he had never
studied for a test before or written a paper by
the time he got to college. So what they did
is they just like kind of for conscientiousness in particular,
(08:25):
they just set up systems that worked for them. Like
they really had to sit down and be like, Okay,
I am going to make a calendar of everything I
have to do today, and I'm going to assign everything
to a time slot. You know. The guy who wanted
to become a psychologist, he made you know, note cards
of every single word that could be on the gre
(08:46):
and you know, quizzed himself all day. He found a
study partner and they just like read like psychology texts
into the night together.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
He bought a book called how to Make A's or
something like that and just like yeah, I read it
and was like, Okay, I'm going to study. I'm going
to like highlight, I'm gonna take notes. You know. So
for conscientiousness, it is one of those things where if
you set up systems that will help you to succeed,
you actually can become conscientious even if you're not like
(09:18):
don't have necessarily a huge shift in mindset. It's one
where really the habits come first and then the conscientiousness
kind of follows.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, The good news is there's so much out there
in the world of different systems and ideas and like that.
There is a book on how to make a's that
breaks it down for someone who has not done that.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
But yeah, you have to decide to avail yourself of
all this.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and
I will be back with more from Olga Hassan.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Well, we are back.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
I am interviewing Olga Hassan, who is the author of
the brand new book Me But Better, about the science
of personality change. So we'll go to a different aspect
of personality, the one about being more anxious, like somebody
who is more temperamentally anxious. That's when you cover a
bit more in the book and your own personal experiences
of changing this. So let's say someone is temperamentally anxious,
(10:15):
not describing either of us. I am sure, but what
can you do to actually change this tendency of yours?
Speaker 3 (10:23):
People really hate this suggestion, anxious people in particular. But
all of the research and all of the strategies and
everything that I read basically comes back down to mindfulness.
People don't want to hear that. They're like, I hate meditation,
I hate mindfulness, Give me something else. Now. It's true
(10:43):
that neuroticism scores do go down with things like antidepressants.
I think, like there was a study on zoloft, which
actually reduces neuroticism. Therapy can also reduce neuroticism. But if
you just don't want to deal with any of that
and want to do something your own, it really does
come down to mindfulness and meditation practices that are really
(11:06):
proven to bring down anxiety and depression sometimes as well
as lexipro.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, well what does that look like then?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
So I says, Okay, I want to be more mindful
and meditate and hopefully cure my anxiety.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
What should somebody who's thinking about that actually do. Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
So I took an intensive meditation class called MBSR and
that involved meditating for about forty five minutes a day.
And the kind of meditation that they did. There's all
different kinds of meditation. This one was very kind of basic.
You just sit and in the quiet and follow your
(11:42):
breath and it's that same thing of like when thoughts arise,
just watch them pass by like clouds. Very difficult to do,
you know, and it is. It is challenging, like and
I found it challenging pretty much the whole time that
I that I did it. I will say though, that
my depressed score went down after I completed the class.
(12:04):
My anxiety also went down, but not a ton. I
still scored very high on anxiety at the end of it,
I think, honestly, like I am just so anxious that
it worked a little bit, but not all the way.
But yeah, I mean it is something. And other people
in my class, you know, they were like, oh, I'm
(12:24):
totally cured, Like, you know, it works differently for different people.
But yeah, unfortunately it is just sort of like sitting
there and you know, trying to follow your breath. You know,
there's other kinds too. There's loving kindness. Meditation is sort
of like repeating kind phrases to yourself and others. Some
people find that a little bit easier because there's actually
(12:45):
something to focus on that's not just your breath. And
also some types of yoga can be considered mindfulness, and
that's more of like a moving meditation I'm not talking
here about like core power where you're like listening to
Britney Spears, but like sort of just like a slower
yoga where you're like really focusing on the breath and
(13:05):
the movement.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Well, maybe listening to Britney Spears makes some people less anxious.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
So I tried to listen to music during my meditation
class and they were like, do do that?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Like, don't you allowed to do that?
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Not allowed?
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, well, I mean it's forty five minutes the minimum
viable dose or is there?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Is it possible to No?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
No, And honestly, the minimal minimum Bible dose is however
much time you have. If you have five minutes, take
the five minutes, do some deep breathing exercises, you know,
try to breathe in, you know, hold it for four counts,
breathe out for you know, five counts. I forget what
the exact counts are, you know, but do some slow breathing.
Even if you have let's say you're you're taking a shower,
(13:45):
you just have like those whatever five six minutes to
take a shower. Try to have a mindful shower where
you just focus on how good it feels to be
in the hot water. Yeah, it's definitely. You do not
have to commit to forty five minutes a day.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
That's good because a lot of people don't have forty
five minutes a day. People would not do it, would
not do it.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, well, I'm sure there's different stages of life where
this is more possible and less possible. But let's talk
about introversion and extroversion because that is another one of
the big five personality traits that you know, we've been
learning over the years in recent decades more about what
it means to be introverted and extroverted. Is there any
(14:26):
reason to change that or to try to push oneself
one way or the other. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
So when I first started this, I really identified very
strongly as an introvert, and so I was a little
bit resistant kind of of the idea. I kind of
wanted more friends and more socializing, but I also wanted
to stay true to like my introversion, you know. And
what I really found is that the research kind of
(14:52):
consistently shows that extroverts are happier. And even if you
take introverts and tell them to go be extra proverted
for a few minutes, they come back happier, and they
also say that they felt truer to themselves when they
were being extroverted, like that they felt more authentic, which
doesn't seem to make sense. But basically, what all this
(15:13):
research is pointing to is the fact that social connections
really do make us happy. Even if we still have
that restorative need to be an introvert at the end
of the day and like sip our tea and read
our book, we still need that connection with society and
we can't just like be by ourselves all the time.
So for me, it was really pushing myself to kind
(15:36):
of take on more activities, develop some hobbies, and really socialize,
you know, quite a bit more than what I was doing.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah, so what would somebody do if they identify that
as something they'd like to push themselves a little bit on.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
I would really recommend signing up for something that you
have to go to somewhat regularly. It is really hard
to in this day and age, commit to socializing if
what you're doing is like texting people to be like
let's get drinks, and you're all like trying to find
a time, and like no one has time, and you
don't end up doing it and everyone cancels at the
(16:12):
last minute. Instead, I would sign up for like a
class or some kind of activity where you prepaid it's
hard to get out of other people are relying on you,
or like I took improv and you actually can't miss
more than two classes, so it'sych. Even if you don't
feel like going, you better go. And honestly, that was
(16:32):
actually kind of a good commitment device for me, because
I think there were way too many days where after
a long day at work, I didn't really feel like going.
But what happens is that, like if you actually force
yourself to go and set aside that time for having fun,
as like dorky as that sounds, you will have a
good time, Like you will feel better afterwards. You will
get that mood boost that extroverts feel. You just won't
(16:56):
realize it, you know, beforehand.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, Well, one of my biggest tips I'm always sharing
with people is to take one night for you. And
I always sort of explain this as like, well, people
need something in their lives besides work and caring for
family members. But you know, I'm always saying we'll make
it as a commitment because you know, otherwise it won't
rise up the hierarchy. Like your boss wants you to
(17:20):
stay late, you don't be like, yeah, I have time
with my bathtub tonight, you know, like you're not gonna
say that, you'd be like, but if you have this
improv class that you literally cannot miss, like you have
a reason to push back. Or if you know your
kid wants you to drive them to the mall, there's
a reason.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
To push back.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
And so but the reason it is also making a commitment.
Then you go and you get the benefit of it.
And so it sounds like that's what you discovered as.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Well, exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah, all right, well let's take one more quick ad
break and I will be back with more from Olga.
Well we are back. I am talking with Olga Haza,
who is the author of the brand new book Me
But Better about the science of personality Change. So are
(18:06):
you actually doing anything different in your day to day
life now? Olga, as, there is a result of writing
this book, but I know other things have changed too
since you wrote. I mean, you had a kid, for instance,
that probably had a bigger change on your day to
day life than anything you did.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah, so I did have a baby, so I am
not meditating for forty five minutes a day anymore, unless
you count watching the baby like try to eat garbage,
which he really loves to do, and that can be
kind of meditative because you're like closing the garbage can.
He's opening the garbage can, you're closing it. Anyway, there's
like a Buddhist lesson in there, I'm sure. But one
(18:43):
thing I had I do do is that I really
have made it a point to reach out to other
moms and try to connect with other moms, even if
it's just like a short playdate or like a short
honestly like get together, or just like coffee or whatever else.
And that is really something that's different from before I
(19:03):
started this project. I really like, I really try to
do something like that at least once a week, because
I found that it is like more restorative for me
to have some social interaction, some kind of shared experience
with someone else. It is even when I'm really tired,
it feels better to do that than it does just
(19:24):
to like sit by myself and like watch TV. And
I think that has really been a huge change. I
just realized that I do I do kind of need
some social interaction like, I'm not one hundred percent introverted,
you know, I'm like maybe thirty percent or forty percent
or something like that. But yeah, so that's that's something
(19:44):
that I do now that I've sort of kept up.
I would say from this project excellent.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Well, we always like to talk with people about their
daily routines on this podcast.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
I'm wondering if you have any.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I mean, it could be a morning routine, although I
know that sometimes when people have very young children, morning
routines is a bit of a you know, the baby
wakes up, that is the morning routine. But I'm curious
if you have any daily routines that help you get
things done in your life.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah, well so yeah, my days kind of like go,
go go from the minute the baby wakes up. You know.
I would say, my my, I have like a good
wind down routine at the end of the day that
I that I think is helpful. So we put him
to bed around seven thirty or eight, and then I
actually work out every day. I find that it is
(20:32):
like a really good stress reliever and a great break
from like sitting or like holding a baby or like
doing stuff that is not like that beneficial for your body.
So I work out, I have like you know, like
whatever fifteen minutes to talk to my husband, and I've
actually started reading more novels. I I like usually have
(20:55):
a novel that I'm working through, and it's something that
I've kind of picked up since the baby was born. Weirdly,
I just like need an escape. That's not like you
kind of said, like you can't just work and take
care of your kids all the time. I kind of
just need that like a mental escape that is also
still stimulating and not TV. So yeah, So that's kind
(21:17):
of what I do in the evenings, is I in
my like whatever ninety minutes of free time, I work
out and then I read.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Well, that's fascinating that you work out in the evening
because this actually is a time that could work for
a lot of people, you know, after they get their
kids to bed and it's time most people are just
watching TV or scrolling around online. I think a lot
of people are concerned about not having enough energy or
that it would keep them awake. I'm curious what you
do that and you've found that's not the case.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
So it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
I've always been an evening exerciser, weirdly, and it doesn't
actually keep me awake. I don't know why. I think
I have a different chronotype than most other people, possibly
for a different show, but I am like really an
evening per and not a morning person. So yeah, so
it doesn't keep me awake. In fact, I think it
helps me sleep sometimes. But but I do I'll do
(22:11):
like a hot yoga class, or I will do the
elliptical machine. We have an elliptical in our house, which
I know is a privilege, but that is it's just
my my thing. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, well it's certainly possible. I mean, you know, many
people could find a used one on Craigslist. I am
sure there's a lot of people who just thought they
would exercise and then don't. Do you actually go to
a hot yoga class than somewhere I assume.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, I do.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
I do go to a like but not every day,
like that's my once a week for me thing.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah no, that's a great idea too.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I mean because again, the kid is down exactly, so
like it's it's no real demand on anyone else that
you go as long as somebody else's home. So yeah,
that's that's awesome. I love that you have that daily routine.
I always like to ask people as well, what is
something you have done recently to take a day from
great to awesome? So something that you've into your life
(23:00):
that's made it a little bit better.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Ooh, from great to awesome? Okay.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I bought disposable smoothie cups, like like they're paper cups
that are for smoothies. They have like a lid that
estraw goes into, so my kid can't reach his little
hand in and like try to grab it while I'm
drinking it. And it just makes the morning so much
better because I can like throw a bunch of stuff
in the blender make a smoothie. He likes to watch
(23:31):
the blender go we you know, I pour it into
the smoothie cup. I drink my smoothie while I'm chasing
him around as he tries to eat garbage. He sometimes
drinks a little bit of the smoothie too, and it
just like makes the morning go a lot easier if
I'm not like trying to eat a bowl of cereal
while he's like being himself. So I don't know, I
(23:52):
just have my little smoothie and then I just throw
the cup away at the end. I know this is
that's wasteful, but like whatever, in this time, this is
what I need, is what you And I got to
have my smoothe cup and I throw it away and
then there's no dishes.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Yeah, it's great, beautiful, beautiful.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Sounds like you also need to put him in front
of the washing machine or the dryer for entertainment.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Anything that is like not a toy. He's like, I
love this, I love this.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
This is of course of course that's what that's what
they do at that age.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah. So what are you looking forward to right now?
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Ooh, after my book stuff winds down a little bit,
we are going to take a family vacation. Uh, and
I'm going to take a week off and I'm gonna
read a book and I'm gonna have my parents watch
my baby.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah, even better have the relaxing vacation. They can they
can keep him out of the garbage care.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah exactly. So, Olga, where can people find you? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:46):
So I'm a writer for the Atlantic dot com. Just
the Atlantic dot com into your U r L into
your browser. And I also have a substack Olga Hazon
dot substack dot com. And the book is me but
better and it's wherever books are sold.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Awesome, well, Olga, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you everyone for listening. If you have feedback about
this or any other episode, you can always reach me
at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime,
this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
(25:26):
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(25:48):
listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,
This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
episode is going to be a longer one part of
the series where I interview fascinating people about how they
take their days from great to awesome and how the
(00:24):
rest of us can as well. So today I am
delighted to welcome Olga Hasan to the show. Olga is
the author of a brand new book that is called
Me But Better and about whether it is possible to
change your personality.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
So, Olga, welcome to the show.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
Yeah, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Yeah, so, why don't you introduce yourself to our listeners.
Tell us a little bit about you.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Yeah, Well, I'm Olga has On. I'm a staff writer
at The Atlantic magazine. I've been there for more than
a decade now, and I'm the author of two books,
and Me But Better is my most recent book. It's
based on a magazine cover story that I wrote a
couple of years ago, and it's based on my own
personal experience of trying to change my personality for the better.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Which is interesting, I mean, because you seem like a.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Perfectly lovely person, so very curious what inspired this, what
made you think about changing your personality?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Yeah, well, thank you. Well so, yeah, So the way
you seem to other people is one element of personality,
but another element of personality is how you feel, and
whether you are able to accomplish your goals in the
way that you would like, and whether you enjoy your life.
And what I found was that often my reactions to
things were sort of not helping me. They were kind
of holding me back. So I would have a perfectly
(01:43):
fine day, but with maybe some minor setbacks. In the
intro of the book, I talk about a day where
I got a bad haircut and then got photos taken
that didn't look good, and then I got stuck in traffic,
and all of those things really just kind of ate
away me until I had this like huge meltdown that
was totally out of proportion to what was going on.
(02:06):
And I kind of realized that that variations on that
happened kind of a lot, and I wanted to see
what I could do about that. So that is kind
of what started me out on my journey.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Yeah, I mean, do you think that's a common thing
of people sort of having that tendency to melt down over.
Speaker 2 (02:21):
I mean, what are in essence first world problems?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Yeah, I mean, so it's that tendency is related to
the personality trait of neuroticism, which is basically just like
depression and anxiety, and a component of that is like
this this feeling that like you get overwhelmed easily, Like
when too many things happen, You're not like, bless this mess,
what a day. You're just like, oh my god, I
(02:45):
can't take it anymore, you know. And so I was
definitely in that second category, and I was trying to
kind of get out of that and more into the
blessed this mess territory.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
Yes, we all need the motivational quotes up on the wall, right, Yes, yeah,
a cross stitch sampler saying those things.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Well, but here's the question for you.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
I mean, are some personalities better than others? I mean,
how can we even think about this?
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Yeah, So there's five traits that make up personality. So
it's openness to experiences, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and then actually
the opposite of neuroticism, emotional stability, is the one that
you want to have, and generally being higher on all
five of those traits is considered like more adaptive in
(03:33):
science terms, or kind of just healthier and better for you.
So people who are a little bit more agreeable, a
little bit more conscientious, they tend to just like be
a little bit more successful, Like they make more money,
they have more friends, they you know, are healthier. So
you do kind of want to be higher on all
of those traits, but you don't necessarily want to be
(03:54):
like all the way at the extreme one hundred percent
more so than everyone else, because that can also start
to be you know, a little bit a little bit off,
like obsessive or just just kind of not quite right.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
Yeah, as somebody who is one hundred percent agreeable would
be something of a doormat.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I say, exactly exactly. You want to be disagreeable sometimes.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Yeah, sometimes when you're disagreeing with the right things to
disagree with. But I mean, why are we who we are?
I mean, is this sort of in the genetic mix
or how we're raised? I mean, how do we get
our personalities?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Yeah, so we get about forty to sixty percent of
our personalities from our parents. Doesn't mean we're exactly like
our parents, but just that's the part that's sort of inherited.
It's in our genes. So if your parents are sort
of extreme extroverts, there's a good chance that you will
also be somewhat extroverted. But there's like a good chunk
(04:49):
of that about half that is also just comes from
your environment. And it's not totally how your parents raised
you either. It's sort of like where you grew up,
who your friends are, what kind of job you end
up having, whether you get married, you know, what kind
of work you pursue, whether you go to college. All
of those things kind of form your personality and develop
(05:12):
who you are as a person. And it's it's really
hard to say, like which of those factors is the
most important. One researcher described it to me as more
like a tapestry where everything kind of comes together and
creates kind of who you are.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
Yeah, well that's an interesting thing to think about.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
I mean, what is personality then, and like the definition
of personality versus just how I'm sort of responding to
my life or how you know, things come to me.
I guess what makes something personality?
Speaker 3 (05:47):
Oh that's interesting.
Speaker 2 (05:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
So for a while there there were some researchers like
Carol Dweck was one of them who basically thought like,
there's no such thing as personality, and all we do
is just respond to situations like, something bad happens, you
respond this way. Something good happens, you respond that way.
But I think it's kind of both. So it's it's
sort of like how you typically respond to situations, right,
(06:13):
And kind of other researchers who are not of that
school kind of think it's also personality. One way of
looking at it as sort of how you pursue goals,
and and that personality actually helps you attain your goals.
So if you think about a trait like conscientiousness, you know,
always being on time, being super organized, you know, kind
(06:35):
of knowing where all of your tax forms are, those
things help you achieve certain goals. You probably, you know,
are going to be on time to your job interview,
so you're going to get that job. You know, you
probably are going to eat right, and so you're going
to live a little bit longer. If those are goals
that you have, that element of your personality helps you
pursue your goals. So that's kind of a newer way
(06:58):
of thinking about it as opposed to things happen and
we react in various ways.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
Yeah, and the point of your book is that you
might be able to actually change some of these. I
mean it sounds like, again, you know, if forty to
sixty percent is from your genetic background, it's pretty hard
to change that. But that still leaves a reasonable chunk
that we might be able to modify slightly. I mean,
is this doable? I'm just thinking about something like being conscientious.
(07:28):
I mean, it does, in fact help to know where
your tax forms are and to know how to get
to a job interview on time. But if you're not
naturally inclined that way, I mean, how would one even
go about becoming the sort of person who knows where
their tax forms are?
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Yeah? So I actually started out really conscientious, so that
wasn't a trait that I tried to change personally. But
I did interview a lot of people who became conscientious
for the book, and they were all exactly what you describe,
like they had no idea how to start. You know.
One of them was like a freelance writer who quit
her job to freelance write and then didn't end up
(08:05):
doing any writing because she just like was like, I
don't know how do I begin? Where do I go
from here. Another one was like this this guy who
wanted to become a professional psychologist, but he had never
studied for a test before or written a paper by
the time he got to college. So what they did
is they just like kind of for conscientiousness in particular,
(08:25):
they just set up systems that worked for them. Like
they really had to sit down and be like, Okay,
I am going to make a calendar of everything I
have to do today, and I'm going to assign everything
to a time slot. You know. The guy who wanted
to become a psychologist, he made you know, note cards
of every single word that could be on the gre
(08:46):
and you know, quizzed himself all day. He found a
study partner and they just like read like psychology texts
into the night together.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
You know.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
He bought a book called how to Make A's or
something like that and just like yeah, I read it
and was like, Okay, I'm going to study. I'm going
to like highlight, I'm gonna take notes. You know. So
for conscientiousness, it is one of those things where if
you set up systems that will help you to succeed,
you actually can become conscientious even if you're not like
(09:18):
don't have necessarily a huge shift in mindset. It's one
where really the habits come first and then the conscientiousness
kind of follows.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:27):
Yeah, The good news is there's so much out there
in the world of different systems and ideas and like that.
There is a book on how to make a's that
breaks it down for someone who has not done that.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
But yeah, you have to decide to avail yourself of
all this.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and
I will be back with more from Olga Hassan.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Well, we are back.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
I am interviewing Olga Hassan, who is the author of
the brand new book Me But Better, about the science
of personality change. So we'll go to a different aspect
of personality, the one about being more anxious, like somebody
who is more temperamentally anxious. That's when you cover a
bit more in the book and your own personal experiences
of changing this. So let's say someone is temperamentally anxious,
(10:15):
not describing either of us. I am sure, but what
can you do to actually change this tendency of yours?
Speaker 3 (10:23):
People really hate this suggestion, anxious people in particular. But
all of the research and all of the strategies and
everything that I read basically comes back down to mindfulness.
People don't want to hear that. They're like, I hate meditation,
I hate mindfulness, Give me something else. Now. It's true
(10:43):
that neuroticism scores do go down with things like antidepressants.
I think, like there was a study on zoloft, which
actually reduces neuroticism. Therapy can also reduce neuroticism. But if
you just don't want to deal with any of that
and want to do something your own, it really does
come down to mindfulness and meditation practices that are really
(11:06):
proven to bring down anxiety and depression sometimes as well
as lexipro.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Yeah, well what does that look like then?
Speaker 1 (11:13):
So I says, Okay, I want to be more mindful
and meditate and hopefully cure my anxiety.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
What should somebody who's thinking about that actually do. Yeah?
Speaker 3 (11:21):
So I took an intensive meditation class called MBSR and
that involved meditating for about forty five minutes a day.
And the kind of meditation that they did. There's all
different kinds of meditation. This one was very kind of basic.
You just sit and in the quiet and follow your
(11:42):
breath and it's that same thing of like when thoughts arise,
just watch them pass by like clouds. Very difficult to do,
you know, and it is. It is challenging, like and
I found it challenging pretty much the whole time that
I that I did it. I will say though, that
my depressed score went down after I completed the class.
(12:04):
My anxiety also went down, but not a ton. I
still scored very high on anxiety at the end of it,
I think, honestly, like I am just so anxious that
it worked a little bit, but not all the way.
But yeah, I mean it is something. And other people
in my class, you know, they were like, oh, I'm
(12:24):
totally cured, Like, you know, it works differently for different people.
But yeah, unfortunately it is just sort of like sitting
there and you know, trying to follow your breath. You know,
there's other kinds too. There's loving kindness. Meditation is sort
of like repeating kind phrases to yourself and others. Some
people find that a little bit easier because there's actually
(12:45):
something to focus on that's not just your breath. And
also some types of yoga can be considered mindfulness, and
that's more of like a moving meditation I'm not talking
here about like core power where you're like listening to
Britney Spears, but like sort of just like a slower
yoga where you're like really focusing on the breath and
(13:05):
the movement.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Well, maybe listening to Britney Spears makes some people less anxious.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
So I tried to listen to music during my meditation
class and they were like, do do that?
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Like, don't you allowed to do that?
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Not allowed?
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, well, I mean it's forty five minutes the minimum
viable dose or is there?
Speaker 2 (13:21):
Is it possible to No?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
No, And honestly, the minimal minimum Bible dose is however
much time you have. If you have five minutes, take
the five minutes, do some deep breathing exercises, you know,
try to breathe in, you know, hold it for four counts,
breathe out for you know, five counts. I forget what
the exact counts are, you know, but do some slow breathing.
Even if you have let's say you're you're taking a shower,
(13:45):
you just have like those whatever five six minutes to
take a shower. Try to have a mindful shower where
you just focus on how good it feels to be
in the hot water. Yeah, it's definitely. You do not
have to commit to forty five minutes a day.
Speaker 2 (13:58):
That's good because a lot of people don't have forty
five minutes a day. People would not do it, would
not do it.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
Yeah, well, I'm sure there's different stages of life where
this is more possible and less possible. But let's talk
about introversion and extroversion because that is another one of
the big five personality traits that you know, we've been
learning over the years in recent decades more about what
it means to be introverted and extroverted. Is there any
(14:26):
reason to change that or to try to push oneself
one way or the other. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
So when I first started this, I really identified very
strongly as an introvert, and so I was a little
bit resistant kind of of the idea. I kind of
wanted more friends and more socializing, but I also wanted
to stay true to like my introversion, you know. And
what I really found is that the research kind of
(14:52):
consistently shows that extroverts are happier. And even if you
take introverts and tell them to go be extra proverted
for a few minutes, they come back happier, and they
also say that they felt truer to themselves when they
were being extroverted, like that they felt more authentic, which
doesn't seem to make sense. But basically, what all this
(15:13):
research is pointing to is the fact that social connections
really do make us happy. Even if we still have
that restorative need to be an introvert at the end
of the day and like sip our tea and read
our book, we still need that connection with society and
we can't just like be by ourselves all the time.
So for me, it was really pushing myself to kind
(15:36):
of take on more activities, develop some hobbies, and really socialize,
you know, quite a bit more than what I was doing.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
Yeah, so what would somebody do if they identify that
as something they'd like to push themselves a little bit on.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
I would really recommend signing up for something that you
have to go to somewhat regularly. It is really hard
to in this day and age, commit to socializing if
what you're doing is like texting people to be like
let's get drinks, and you're all like trying to find
a time, and like no one has time, and you
don't end up doing it and everyone cancels at the
(16:12):
last minute. Instead, I would sign up for like a
class or some kind of activity where you prepaid it's
hard to get out of other people are relying on you,
or like I took improv and you actually can't miss
more than two classes, so it'sych. Even if you don't
feel like going, you better go. And honestly, that was
(16:32):
actually kind of a good commitment device for me, because
I think there were way too many days where after
a long day at work, I didn't really feel like going.
But what happens is that, like if you actually force
yourself to go and set aside that time for having fun,
as like dorky as that sounds, you will have a
good time, Like you will feel better afterwards. You will
get that mood boost that extroverts feel. You just won't
(16:56):
realize it, you know, beforehand.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah, Well, one of my biggest tips I'm always sharing
with people is to take one night for you. And
I always sort of explain this as like, well, people
need something in their lives besides work and caring for
family members. But you know, I'm always saying we'll make
it as a commitment because you know, otherwise it won't
rise up the hierarchy. Like your boss wants you to
(17:20):
stay late, you don't be like, yeah, I have time
with my bathtub tonight, you know, like you're not gonna
say that, you'd be like, but if you have this
improv class that you literally cannot miss, like you have
a reason to push back. Or if you know your
kid wants you to drive them to the mall, there's
a reason.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
To push back.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
And so but the reason it is also making a commitment.
Then you go and you get the benefit of it.
And so it sounds like that's what you discovered as.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
Well, exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:46):
Yeah, all right, well let's take one more quick ad
break and I will be back with more from Olga.
Well we are back. I am talking with Olga Haza,
who is the author of the brand new book Me
But Better about the science of personality Change. So are
(18:06):
you actually doing anything different in your day to day
life now? Olga, as, there is a result of writing
this book, but I know other things have changed too
since you wrote. I mean, you had a kid, for instance,
that probably had a bigger change on your day to
day life than anything you did.
Speaker 3 (18:20):
Yeah, so I did have a baby, so I am
not meditating for forty five minutes a day anymore, unless
you count watching the baby like try to eat garbage,
which he really loves to do, and that can be
kind of meditative because you're like closing the garbage can.
He's opening the garbage can, you're closing it. Anyway, there's
like a Buddhist lesson in there, I'm sure. But one
(18:43):
thing I had I do do is that I really
have made it a point to reach out to other
moms and try to connect with other moms, even if
it's just like a short playdate or like a short
honestly like get together, or just like coffee or whatever else.
And that is really something that's different from before I
(19:03):
started this project. I really like, I really try to
do something like that at least once a week, because
I found that it is like more restorative for me
to have some social interaction, some kind of shared experience
with someone else. It is even when I'm really tired,
it feels better to do that than it does just
(19:24):
to like sit by myself and like watch TV. And
I think that has really been a huge change. I
just realized that I do I do kind of need
some social interaction like, I'm not one hundred percent introverted,
you know, I'm like maybe thirty percent or forty percent
or something like that. But yeah, so that's that's something
(19:44):
that I do now that I've sort of kept up.
I would say from this project excellent.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
Well, we always like to talk with people about their
daily routines on this podcast.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
I'm wondering if you have any.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
I mean, it could be a morning routine, although I
know that sometimes when people have very young children, morning
routines is a bit of a you know, the baby
wakes up, that is the morning routine. But I'm curious
if you have any daily routines that help you get
things done in your life.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Yeah, well so yeah, my days kind of like go,
go go from the minute the baby wakes up. You know.
I would say, my my, I have like a good
wind down routine at the end of the day that
I that I think is helpful. So we put him
to bed around seven thirty or eight, and then I
actually work out every day. I find that it is
(20:32):
like a really good stress reliever and a great break
from like sitting or like holding a baby or like
doing stuff that is not like that beneficial for your body.
So I work out, I have like you know, like
whatever fifteen minutes to talk to my husband, and I've
actually started reading more novels. I I like usually have
(20:55):
a novel that I'm working through, and it's something that
I've kind of picked up since the baby was born. Weirdly,
I just like need an escape. That's not like you
kind of said, like you can't just work and take
care of your kids all the time. I kind of
just need that like a mental escape that is also
still stimulating and not TV. So yeah, So that's kind
(21:17):
of what I do in the evenings, is I in
my like whatever ninety minutes of free time, I work
out and then I read.
Speaker 1 (21:24):
Well, that's fascinating that you work out in the evening
because this actually is a time that could work for
a lot of people, you know, after they get their
kids to bed and it's time most people are just
watching TV or scrolling around online. I think a lot
of people are concerned about not having enough energy or
that it would keep them awake. I'm curious what you
do that and you've found that's not the case.
Speaker 2 (21:45):
So it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (21:46):
I've always been an evening exerciser, weirdly, and it doesn't
actually keep me awake. I don't know why. I think
I have a different chronotype than most other people, possibly
for a different show, but I am like really an
evening per and not a morning person. So yeah, so
it doesn't keep me awake. In fact, I think it
helps me sleep sometimes. But but I do I'll do
(22:11):
like a hot yoga class, or I will do the
elliptical machine. We have an elliptical in our house, which
I know is a privilege, but that is it's just
my my thing. I don't know.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, well it's certainly possible. I mean, you know, many
people could find a used one on Craigslist. I am
sure there's a lot of people who just thought they
would exercise and then don't. Do you actually go to
a hot yoga class than somewhere I assume.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah, I do.
Speaker 3 (22:33):
I do go to a like but not every day,
like that's my once a week for me thing.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Yeah no, that's a great idea too.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I mean because again, the kid is down exactly, so
like it's it's no real demand on anyone else that
you go as long as somebody else's home. So yeah,
that's that's awesome. I love that you have that daily routine.
I always like to ask people as well, what is
something you have done recently to take a day from
great to awesome? So something that you've into your life
(23:00):
that's made it a little bit better.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Ooh, from great to awesome? Okay.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
I bought disposable smoothie cups, like like they're paper cups
that are for smoothies. They have like a lid that
estraw goes into, so my kid can't reach his little
hand in and like try to grab it while I'm
drinking it. And it just makes the morning so much
better because I can like throw a bunch of stuff
in the blender make a smoothie. He likes to watch
(23:31):
the blender go we you know, I pour it into
the smoothie cup. I drink my smoothie while I'm chasing
him around as he tries to eat garbage. He sometimes
drinks a little bit of the smoothie too, and it
just like makes the morning go a lot easier if
I'm not like trying to eat a bowl of cereal
while he's like being himself. So I don't know, I
(23:52):
just have my little smoothie and then I just throw
the cup away at the end. I know this is
that's wasteful, but like whatever, in this time, this is
what I need, is what you And I got to
have my smoothe cup and I throw it away and
then there's no dishes.
Speaker 2 (24:04):
Yeah, it's great, beautiful, beautiful.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
Sounds like you also need to put him in front
of the washing machine or the dryer for entertainment.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Anything that is like not a toy. He's like, I
love this, I love this.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
This is of course of course that's what that's what
they do at that age.
Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah. So what are you looking forward to right now?
Speaker 3 (24:20):
Ooh, after my book stuff winds down a little bit,
we are going to take a family vacation. Uh, and
I'm going to take a week off and I'm gonna
read a book and I'm gonna have my parents watch
my baby.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
Awesome.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Yeah, even better have the relaxing vacation. They can they
can keep him out of the garbage care.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
Yeah exactly. So, Olga, where can people find you? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (24:46):
So I'm a writer for the Atlantic dot com. Just
the Atlantic dot com into your U r L into
your browser. And I also have a substack Olga Hazon
dot substack dot com. And the book is me but
better and it's wherever books are sold.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
Awesome, well, Olga, thank you so much for joining us.
Thank you everyone for listening. If you have feedback about
this or any other episode, you can always reach me
at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime,
this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
(25:26):
If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
(25:48):
listen to your favorite shows.
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