Part One: Peter Nygard: The Epstein of Fashion

Robert is joined by Margaret Killjoy to discuss Peter Nygard.

 

(2 part series)

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
What's Jeffrey my Epstein's Oh boy, this is the topic
that was a horrible idea. Sweet, sweet, sweet, sweet sweet,
Margaret killed Joy. This is Behind the Bastards, the podcast
where Robert gets himself canceled with that introduction, Margaret, I can't,

(00:23):
I can't even you. This is the topic you chose
for our dear friend, Margaret kill Joy. Mars people right,
this this is a nice one, kind of not really, Um, Margaret,
you know you you're, you're, you're, you're, you're familiar with
a friend of the pod Jeffrey Epstein, Right, I am
aware of this person. Yeah, yeah, Um, everybody is real bad. Um,

(00:47):
not great, Um, not not very well, although by some judgments,
better than ever because he's dead. Um. That might be
my attitude towards how Jeffrey Epstein's doing. Um, a pretty
bad guy. He's kind of become like shorthand for a
specific kind of monster, like a man who traffics women

(01:07):
and children. Um, and is like fucking child sex trafficker
to the rich and famous and powerful, just like this
embodiment of corruption. And I'm here to tell you today, Margaret,
I found a guy I think might be worse. Um, goddamnit. Yeah,
um wow, this guy real, real piece of shit. Have

(01:28):
you heard of Peter Nigrid? I have not. Okay, well,
put on your I once again, I'm saying, how could
you do this to our dear friend. I'm not sure
what you what? You put on? Strap on your anti
pedophile cream, vote up your anti garment industry monster fashion

(01:54):
demon hammer, and get ready for an episode behind the Bastards.
Just nine mill I feel like a nine millimeter might
work out great. I keep one in my desk in
case anyone involved in the fashion industry comes to my house.
I do. I do sincerely look forward to the point
where I get to show Margaret a picture. Yeah, this

(02:15):
guy looks incredible. Almost. I almost brought our good friend
Tom Ryman onto the podcast, who we had on for
our episodes on right wing media Grifters, just to react
to this man's appearance and then leave. But I DESI
had not. Um Pecca Juhani Nigard was born in Helsinki, Finland,

(02:36):
on July nine. His mother and his father ran a bakery,
or maybe it was just his dad. Sources I found
her a little bit unclear. Now you might guess by
the year that this was not the easiest period in
history to be a finn Um. Some real the late
thirties early forties real rough years for the Finnish people.

(02:57):
There's for a lot of people in that region to
be fair, not just some good decisions and some bad
decisions and rapid succession. It was a complicated time. No
one was going to handle it perfectly. Um. And after
the war, his family were like, maybe this chunk of
Europe is not the best place to raise a child.
I don't I don't know, if I don't know, if
the bad stuff is done happening over here, you know. Um.

(03:19):
So they moved to Winnipeg, Canada, where they lived in
They get hired by a bakery, and the bakery kind
of moves them in to some land that it owns,
which means that they take up residents in a fifteen
foot by thirteen foot converted colbin um. So that's also
not a great place to raise a family. Not a
great place to raise a family. Although if you've just

(03:40):
lived through several both the invasion of Finland by Russia
and then World War Two, you'll be like a coalbin
where nobody is shooting at us. Sounds dope, yeah, let's
get the funk out of Finland. Probably would stop some bullets.
I probably would. There's a good chance that was on
their mind. How big is this Cobin? Oh yeah, no,
absolutely yeah. Um. So they lived there for a little while.

(04:04):
Peter was about or Pecca at this point was eight
or nine years old, maybe eleven when he moved again.
Sources are kind of unclear, and it's not entirely clear
to me. If he was born at a time when
everybody who got born in Finland got up an accurate
birth certificate, right like the forties, you still are kind
of in that that period. Um. Now, since Finnish names

(04:25):
are simply unacceptable in English speaking nations, he began going
by Peter instead of Peca and substituted the Johani for
a j um. Now we have a lot less to
tail about his early life than I would prefer. And
because he becomes basically a billionaire, Peter was successful for
many years and limiting the scope of inquiry that reporters
could could delve into his past. I did find it

(04:47):
right up on celeb family dot com, which is a
clearly credible source by someone I think was either Peter
Niagart or someone he had paid to write it. Um
and that source notes quote er Nigard credits his vast
success to three things genetics, his finished roots, and perseverance.
He is immensely grateful to his parents for having immigrated

(05:08):
to Canada. He remembers never having to go without the
basic necessities, even though money was often scarce in his household.
And I think actually is probably more just based on
some things he paid other people to write on other websites,
and then he gets it wounds up getting filtered to
these kind of clickbait sites after some stories break about him.
But whatever, the person he is about, how good of
a person he well, yeah, that's early on. Yes. Um,

(05:32):
So his mother and his father opened their own bakery
soon after arriving in Canada. Um, they move out of
the coal bin pretty quick, so they're doing good. They're
doing good. Uh. They wind up in the big city,
which is Winnipeg, so not really a big scene, a
moderately large town, birthplace of Winnie the Pooh. Um, he
was a meeting, Yeah, Winnipeg, that's yeah. Does hear one lie?

(05:56):
It might be crap. There's no way to know. It's
impossible to say. Um, but Yes, the city where Winnie
the Pooh lived briefly before going to die on the
Western Front. Look it up. You you'd be surprised at
how accurate that one is. Um. So, yeah, they open
a bakery and uh, they things go well, you know,

(06:18):
they wind up kind of It's kind of hard for
me to tell exactly, but I would probably say upper
middle class ish or maybe at least solidly middle class. Right,
they're doing fairly well. Um, And yeah, they seem to
have a lot of gratitude to their adopted new home country.
Once Peter gets rich, his mom's going to use some
of his money to create a park in Winnipeg in

(06:38):
their father's armor honor, where the coal beIN homestead they've
lived on is featured. Uh. I don't know that they
keep that cold been around anymore. After the stuff that
happens in this story. But now again Peter becomes almost
a billionaire, close enough that it doesn't really matter all
that much. The internet winds up littered with all these
weird little websites that he paid to create and have

(06:58):
someone right nice things about him on. There's like a
bunch of websites he makes. We'll be talking about this
more in part two. Because it's part of a a
kind of rich guy battle. He winds up and and
what'll do this for? Like ten dollars that much? Right?
You get some people in other countries to write some
nice stuff about you. Yeah, use like a task rabbit

(07:19):
style app to get Yeah. Yeah, um, it's not a
bad idea, right, Margaret. We could, we could, We could
at least take down one enemy. I feel like if
we if we wrangled together six to eight writers, Yeah,
that could be the end. That could be the end
of of Will Wheaton. Oh sure. Uh So in one

(07:41):
of these, uh these random little websites about him, which
was titled the Real Peter Niger dot Com, I found
this claim that's again incredibly incredible. Yeah yeah, well, wouldn't
say real if it wasn't, Margaret. It's like being a cop.
You're not allowed to lie about that. No, absolutely, not
so quote. Peter excelled at school and received recognition and

(08:03):
awards for both academics and athletics. During his secondary school years.
He constantly contributed money to assist his family through varied
and multiple jobs. He concluded, and he concluded his high
school years as the most accomplished student in the graduating class.
Peter was later asked by the school to return and
deliver a speech to the graduating class. This speech provides
a roadmap to his success in business in life, and

(08:23):
was still being quoted fifty years later. Now I haven't
found a copy of this speech, Margaret. I don't. I don't.
I don't know that it's still being quoted fifty years later,
unless it's by people Peter and igerd paid to write
articles about him. Um. But yeah, there there you go.
That's his claims about this period. We know that he
goes to the United States, you know, basically as soon

(08:46):
as he graduates high school. Um. And he graduates from
the University of North Dakota a couple of years later
with a business degree. This is in nineteen sixty four,
when he is twenty three years old. Would go on
to praise one of his professors, Tom Clifford, as a mentor.
Now Tom round Up went up running the college, and
he seems that I found like his You like obituaries

(09:06):
and stuff, um, which obviously aren't unbiased. But the obituaries
make him look like a decent guy. He killed a
Japanese soldier during World War Two with a shovel, but
that's you know that happens, also pretty rad. I gotta
get anyone who kills a man with a shovel. That's
pretty badass. Yeah yeah, not boring, um, not boring um.

(09:27):
He was also apparently pushed for more recognition of Indigenous
people on campus, which is nice. Um. There's only one
detail from the obituary that gives us maybe some insight
into what niggards saw in him. Quote in the preface
to Good Medicine, a two thousand three account of intrigue
behind the creation of the four year medical school. He
created a medical school at the University of North Canada,

(09:49):
Clifford told how we cut corners, sometimes at blinding speed,
and got around red tape in many cases by simply
ignoring it. Right. So Clifford Clifford is kind of an
education Asian. And again I haven't really run into terrible
criticisms of this guy, but he's he's Peter's mentor, and
he's a big if you've got to cut corners, cut
them kind of guy, right. Um, So that might that

(10:10):
might have an impact on the man that Peter becomes
a little bit late. Right corners like getting consent from
your workers and consents. Not something Peter is going to
grow up to be great at Margaret In a number
of ways, He's not. That's not a strong suit of his. Um. Yeah,
his other strength he I mean, he does have other strengths. Uh,

(10:31):
we can debate whether or not they're good ones. So
Peter spends very little time working for anybody else in
his life. He returns to Winnipeg right after graduating. He
gets hired by the Tea Eaton's Company, which one of
his websites describes as quote the premier and most sophisticated
department store chain in North America. I have no way
to to judge those claims, three of them, and they

(10:54):
had like a yeah, yeah, it's some weird little Canadian
like I haven't heard of Tea Eatons. It sounds like
it's a it's like the Tim Horton's of clothing. Um. Anyway,
he was part of their young executive program, and Peter
is very careful to let us know that quote. He
worked side by side with the Eaton brothers and was
identified by the Eaton family and their executive management team

(11:15):
as having the potential to eventually run the entire Eaton's operation.
But he doesn't do that, Margaret. He doesn't do that,
and we don't really know why. Although it's possible he's
just lying about this and he wasn't really very good
at that job, we have absolutely no way of I mean, theoretically,
if I was to make an article about him, I
could try to track down people in the Eaton's management team,

(11:36):
but they're all probably dead now because this was nineteen
sixty six. Um, he was really the most accomplished student
at a school in all fields or whatever. He was
probably the one who made the most money. I have
not I can't tell you off the top of my head,
and did not find in limited research at University of
North Dakota graduate who I'm certain made more money than

(11:57):
your niagred. So he makes a lot of an okay.
In nineteen sixty seven, he gathers up his life savings
and receives an eight thousand dollar loan to purchase a
steak in a woman's garment manufacturer called Nathan Jacobs. Now
kind of unclear to me whether the loan came from
a bank or his family. Uh Niagard does not specify
on any of the defunct websites I found and I

(12:19):
haven't really found clarity anywhere else. Um. It's noted in
several sources that he quickly came to own the business
outright on one of his websites. Niagard says the speed
with which Niagard claimed his number one position in the
industry has attributed to the uniqueness of his business decisions
and his work ethic that includes fourteen to sixteen hour days,
seven days a week. But then, as Niagard says, the

(12:40):
only time you are working is when you wish you
were doing something else. And that's, uh, that's gonna be good.
When we have our podcasting seminars. I feel like that's
going to be a that's right, that's gonna be at
You all got that for free. Yeah, you got that
for free, but if you I mean honestly, I do
feel like we should get a collections agency to just

(13:02):
go around and crack a couple of kneecaps of some
listeners until they pay up. That was worth just random
three or fifty dollars. You feel like that's a three
fifty margaret, Yeah, I think so, as long as it's
enough people, well ten ten people, yeah, at least ten
of you better send us some fucking cash or um,
it's it'll it'll be bad. That's a threat, that's a

(13:22):
legally binding threat that that I'm party to somehow that
you cool, Zone Media, Sophie, the I Heart Radio Corporation.
We're all all making it anyway. On one of his
personal websites, Nigard describes this process differently. Rather than buying
into own part of a company, he was quote recruited
to become an equity partner, which makes it sound more

(13:43):
like the company brought him on to buy them out.
He makes sure to let you know that he was
recruited quote despite having no direct knowledge or experience. And
the ladies apparel manufacturing industry, do you think it's just
like going out of business and they're like fun, fun fun.
I kind of think it was. I kind of think
that's what happened. That he was not recruited. They thought
they were pulling over one on over on him. Um,

(14:05):
but that's not how things are going to work out,
because this is the thing he's actually good at in anyway,
He by gets enough money together one way or the other,
by hook or by crook over the next year or
two couple of years to buy a majority stake in
the business, which he renames from Jacobs to tan J
Fashions um now. He would later market the products under
his own name, Niagard, and eventually expand to produce products

(14:28):
under tinned brand names. His clothing was sold in Niagard stores,
but also in major department stores like Sears and Dillards.
Remember Sears and Dillard's. I remember Sears. I feel like
Dillard's missed me. I mean, I can picture it. But yeah,
if you want, right today, if you want to encounter
very large rats, find your nearest Dillard's and break in.

(14:49):
Don't worry. There's no security guards there. Um, there's no
people there at all. It's it's it's the Boulevard of
broken dreams. A Dillard's in two serious security guard uniform,
like you'll find the desiccated remains of a security guard
with rats kind of filling out the uniform in a
sort of body shape. Yeah. They left him there when

(15:09):
they when they locked the doors from the outside and
they said they'll be right back. Yeah, and now the
rats inhabit his soul um, but they don't know about
cell phones, so they can't reach his family. He had
a six month old shot I don't know why I'm
making this so sad. One early strength that helped Nigart
expand beyond the bounds of the business he'd invested in

(15:30):
was a focus on the growing field of information technology. Peter,
and again, this is like the fucking seventies that this
is all starting to come together, invested in software that
linked manufacturing with a network of retail stores to keep
them fully stocked. Peter expanded his business from Canada to
the United States. He did this by again investing in

(15:51):
an existing company, a sportswear designer run by Nancy Ebker.
She claims Peter came to her and agreed to split
profits fifty fifty and kicking seven hundred thousand dollars of
her own money to finance the production of two new
sportswear lines sold out of her showroom. According to Ebgar,
Niagard smooth talked her out of putting any of this
agreement down in writing. He complained that bringing lawyers into

(16:12):
the situation would make everything a big mess. As soon
as the deal closed, Niagard fired Ebger from her own
company and took over the offices. Um, yeah, he is,
he is. He is a cool customer. I'm going to
quote from a write up and form and that's the
worst thing he did. M Well, yeah, Edgar is still fuming.
He literally ruined my life, she says. Ebgar claimed in

(16:34):
court testimony that in their heated final conversation, Niagard told
her I have all your patterns. I have everything, I
own everything. I never intended to put anything in writing.
You have nothing and I am a millionaire. Yeah, that's
straight up. Um, he's the one who locked that guy
into Dillard's. He's dead. He did. Oh my god, of
course he did. Um, why wouldn't he. Let's try to reason,

(16:57):
she interjected, to which Nagard responded, if you don't have
one million dollars by Friday, I'm going to see to
it that your name and reputation are totally destroyed in
this market. Um. Just a cool guy. Now. Niagard tells
the court a different story, saying the two had a
calm conversation in which he suggested the amicably part ways.
The judge found Edgar to be highly credible and deemed

(17:18):
Niggard evasive, insincere, and utterly lacking incredibility. We deplore the
unseemly conduct of Niagard. Judge Irving Cooper wrote but ultimately
ruled that Edgar failed to prove she was damaged by
his actions. Nigard's counterclaim was also dismissed. Edgar, who calls
him a true villain of the world, is writing a
book about the case. I don't think she ever did.
She did. I'll read it, um. So his business takes

(17:43):
off in the years that follow Niagart hires his mom,
He brings his sister on a spokesman for the brand,
and he's building this clothing building he's making is really
tailor made for middle aged women. This is not high fashion.
I don't mean that as an insult, but he's not.
He's not building this is like, this is the Paris
Runway kind of stuff. This is like clothing for women
from like thirty to fifty, um, who have a couple

(18:05):
of kids. It's meant to be like affordable, have like
a wide selection, and he's trying to both make it
kind of something that's attractive to them but also something
that they feel good about buying from. So he makes
sure that, like his sister is the spokeswoman, he makes
sure to bring his mom on so that he can
talk about how while he treats his mom um, he
emphasizes his annual two million dollar donation to breast cancer research.

(18:29):
He claims makes big claims about having an ethical supply chain. Uh.
Niagard's former website bragged as achievements to be the number
one the first manufacturer to have air conditioned factories. Um
and in the real Peter Niagar dot com. He also claims,
quote Peter was always committed to the health and comfort
of his associates. He was the first company in Canada
to ban smoking by associates or visitors in the buildings

(18:52):
or elsewhere on the premises. He created the first air
conditioned manufacturing and visitors Yeah, well he banned them from smoking.
Oh yeah, and he he created the first air conditioned
manufacturing plants, transforming the industry from sweatshops to fashion houses. Uh,
this guy's fucking clever. Mhm, Margaret, you want to guess

(19:15):
if they weren't sweatshops anymore? Uh? Was this his one lie? Yeah,
this is the only one. So um, we'll get to
that in a second. Obviously, top reviews for Niagard clothing
on Amazon include praise that their polyester pants are quote
very comfortable and wash well. Um, so it gives you
an idea of kind of like what people are looking
for in these right, Like I want something comfortable. I

(19:36):
want something that's convenient, Like I'm a busy mom, right
like that? That that's like what this is angled at
um And it's a good strategy. In very short order,
his clothing is in more than thirty states. Sixty of
his corporate revenue was soon coming from outside of Canada,
and it spreads to other countries too. It's not just
the US and Canada's all over the place. And as
you might have guessed by now, the reality of niagard

(19:58):
ink labor practices did not quite matched the rosy claims
made by their old website. And I'm gonna quote from
Forbes here. In late April, the National Labor Committee n LC,
a private group in Pittsburgh, issued a report claiming that
Niggard pants from its Alie line were being sewn in
a Jordanian sweat shop. The factory in al Zarka. The
report says, employed guest workers from Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, and

(20:19):
India who had quote been trafficed to Jordan's, stripped of
their passports and held under conditions of indentured servitude. According
to the investigation, women were forced to work fifteen hour
shifts seven days a week, and we're paid half the
wages they were owed. A Niagard spokeswoman says that a
government inquiry found no truth to the allegations, but since
the report, the NLC says factory conditions have improved significantly.

(20:40):
Passports have been returned and workers now get Fridays off. Wow,
and they get their own passports back. They get to
keep their passports while they're working fifteen hour days, six
days a week. Um, and six days a week. Yeah,
that's that's not as many to days as there are
in the week. That's not that's not that's a whole
day they don't have to work. Other cool fact. The

(21:03):
factory is in al Zarka, which is also the hometown
of Abu Musab al Zarkawi, the founder of al Qaeda
in Iraq, which is kind of the group that immediately
led to isis Yeah, okay, cool guy. Anyway, that has
nothing to do with Peter Niagard coincidence. It's just a
fun well or does it. Did Peter Niagard uh create

(21:26):
isis in order to sell more comfortable, easily washed polyester sweatpants.
Did a world will never know. There's no babe that
it didn't happen. Maybe it's possible, but that's not a
legally binding allegation, so it gets worse. The one detail
I did find on his website that actually surprised me

(21:46):
was this tidbit. Nothing has made a bigger impact on
the Canadian fashion industry than the NAFTA agreement. The seeds
of this agreement were sewn in nineteen two when Peter
Nyagard wrote a strategic position paper to initiate free trade.
This paper resulted in his appointment to chair in the
Advisory Committee on Future Canadian Long Term Industrial Strategy. From
that committee grew Niger's recommendation to negotiate a free trade

(22:09):
Agreement f t A first with the United States, which
ultimately became the foundation agreement from Mexico's entry in d
e c. Ninety two, nor known as the North American
Free Trade Agreement or NAFTA. No other person in the
apparel industry has played a more significant role with the
creation of NAFTA than Peter Niagart. Holy sh it right, Yeah, now, okay,

(22:30):
Well that means the zapatista. We get the Zapatistas out
of him. We do kind of get the zapatistas out
of him. Um, it's now obviously this is a claim
being made on his website. He thinks of his personals
and he is taking personal credit for making it. I
think he is overselling his role here. But he winds

(22:50):
up on a couple joint Canadian US like government panels,
like several a number over the years, like a number
of pretty significant positions that he holds, like helping to
carry out aspects of like what's going to become NAFTA.
So he's not entirely lying here either. We're going to
get into this in a bit. But he is not
an insignificant part of the creation or the establishment of NAFTA,

(23:12):
although he is a little bit over selling it here. UM,
he's definitely one of the people in the apparel industry
who's most involved in the creation of NAFTA. That's probably
fair to UM. So we're gonna talk about that and
why that's not entirely a good thing. But first, Margaret,
you know, people don't like about NAFTA the fact that

(23:33):
it strips resources from developing nations to fuel the lifestyles
of the wealthy that are destroying the earth exactly. You
know what doesn't do that? Potatoes. Potatoes don't. But let
me let me paint a picture of you, Margaret. Want
you to think about the Great Lakes superior the other ones,

(23:56):
shining out beautiful, surrounded by basically Hanada, Canada, which is
the bad guy of this story. Now imagine, now imagine Margaret,
a beautiful sheet of I C. B M s coming
down over the Great Lakes, and instead of robbing poorer
and low income nations in order to finance the lifestyles

(24:18):
of the rich and the famous, we irradiate fish in
the Great Lakes to provide the world with fish. That's huge,
because whatever, probably who knows what happens. I just think
we should do it. Ylvie, how are we doing here?
I'm so tired that I'm like, let's let me show
you some pamphlets while while the listeners check out these

(24:40):
other ads. Okay, oh we're back. And you know, I
think if the US has six thousand nuclear weapons, we
can spare a handful. Convinced. The pamphlets had lots of charts,
yep and it and uh warning labels that have been

(25:03):
scratched out, so they probably don't matter. They probably don't matter.
And several times I repeated the lyrics to the wreck
of the Edmund Fitzgerald to remind you of all the
brave men who died in those lakes. Yeah. Absolutely, So
I looked at your many personal websites, and I have
hired to we have a lot of websites made. I

(25:25):
cross referenced from one of your personal websites to the other,
and they all checked out. That's right, that's what we
call research. That's nocent um. Yeah, you know, people, look,
Sophie has driven a hard line that we have to
stop the blue Apron child island bit um because it's
it's just it's just creates so much work on the

(25:47):
bleeping end um, and then when we don't bleep it,
people are like is it real, which is a question
we've had to deal with a lot lately. So now
we're going to talk about nuking the Great Lakes for
a couple of months and then I'll figure out something else.
Because you believe, mistakenly that if you go all of
the producers and go more and more drastically absurd, that
people will stop believing you I do hope because it

(26:11):
will be really funny. It'll be the end of life
on this earth, but it'll be really funny that like
this bit ends with me being elected president in a
landslide with a mandate to deploy nuclear weapons to the
Great Lakes. Yeah, I mean you don't have zero Mostel,
so off. But anyway, back to NAFTA. Speaking of bad things, um,

(26:37):
not bad things like zero Mustel. He was rad didn't
name names anyway, Sorry Jesus, this is going off the
rails a little bit. Let's talk about NAFTA. So Peter
n Iagart, obviously he's a narcissist. Take what he says
about being like integral to the creation of NAFTA with
a grain of salt. But it's not an invented claim.
It's probably fair to say that niagard strategic papers were

(26:57):
less the inspiration for NAFTA than one of a number
of people with influence who were pushing for trade liberalization
to allow US and Canadian companies to do their manufacturing overseas,
particularly in Mexico. I found a right up by the
makila Uh Solidarity Network, which is a Canadian organization promoting
solidarity with laborers in places like Mexico and other parts

(27:19):
of Central America to improve conditions and win a living
wage for workers. Right at the beginning of NAFTA, they
published a position paper analyzing the trade agreement and it's
likely impact on laborers and the manufacturer they chose to
highlight in order to analyze this was Niagard. So whatever
he's saying, and however much he kind of exaggerates things
this organization. When they were like choosing to like look

(27:42):
at a garment manufacturer to see what NAFTA was going
to do in Mexico, they picked Niagard because he's it
was a really big deal and he was a big
part of it. Ums, just like the obvious where are
we at? Timeline? Yeah, this is this is like the
late eighties. I think when kind of this gets I
can I can actually look this up? Um don't. I'm
just trying to figure out why I've never heard of
this brand before. Is it because I'm not Canadian or

(28:04):
is it because I only became a middle aged lady
more recently. Yeah, I think the second might be a
bigger and you're you're not like a suburban like mother
of three, which I think is primarily kind of who
he was angled at UM. But yeah, so obviously mckiela
is also a Canadian organization that may also be part
of why they pick Niagard. But Niagard was one of

(28:26):
the largest, I think at it for a time, the
largest garment manufacturer to invest in Mexican factories and kind
of the first days of nafta UM. The writers of
that Makuela Solidarity Net Network paper did not consider this
to have been a good thing, and they wrote quote
from the research that has already been done on the ground. However,
working conditions in areas where Niagard has produced and is
currently producing in Mexico are less than ideal. While management

(28:49):
at the Majelosa factory in Tahoakan, Mexico, insisted that they
paid premium wages, workers disputed these statements. Low wages are
a common complaint of garment workers into wak Been. Many
are forced to work several jobs to meet their families
basic needs. It is not uncommon for children to work
in smaller makilas and workshops to complement the very low
wages their parents are making. In Quahuila, where Niagard is

(29:12):
currently contracting work there, are similar reports of low wages,
long hours, and forced overtime. Since the signing of NAFTA,
union representation has decreased significantly in this region. Force pregnancy
testing and sexual harassment have also been reported. Further research
needs to be done to document the working conditions at
niagard owned factories in Guadalajara and Guernavaca, Mexico and Canada.
Three of Niagard's Manitoba factories are certified by UNITE, the

(29:35):
North American Garment and Textile Workers Union. During union drives
in the nineteen eighties at his plants, Peter Niagard placed
full page ads in Winnipeg newspapers stating his anti union position.
At that time, the Manitoba Labor Board ruled that the
company had committed unfair labor practices, including the refusal to
deduct union dues to allow the union access to the
plant and to pay into the union's retirement and health

(29:55):
and welfare funds. Niagaret was ordered to pay the union
and illegally laid off employees a hundred fifty dollars in
money owed and fines um. So yeah, he's cool, Do
you ever like? Is there ever a bastard who's like
the shining prints of everything and then secretly has the
like murder basement or always just these people where you're like,

(30:16):
of course, this person doesn't respect fucking anybody except like,
I mean, we didn't portray it this way, but a
lot of people, Georgia Tan, the woman who invented adoption
by kidnapping a lot of babies, a whole bunch of
people thought she was wonderful because she's running these adoption
centers and stuff, you know. Um, so I should probably
say a little bit about naft to here as well.

(30:38):
We're not gonna go a lot into nafty here, because
that's a subject that deserves more than just casual coverage
on a podcast. Um, but it's fair to say that
rather than inspiring NAFTA, Nigaard's primary contribution was to be
one of the first guys to use the trade agreement
to escape unionized labor and forced workers to endure privation
for the enhanced profit of his company. This pattern was

(30:58):
repeated on a large scale al by other businesses. I
want to quote now from a writ up by sociology
professor Robert Ross from Clark University. Uh, it is a
long quote, but I think that it's necessary to do
that here. On August second, nineteen, labor officials in the
state of California rated a garment manufacturing shop twelve miles
east of Los Angeles and the town of El Monty.
The shop was located in what had appeared to be

(31:20):
a residential condominium complex, but this one was surrounded by
a barbed wire fence and a six foot brick wall
with metal spikes. Dangerous and unsanitary, the Carmit Factories was
worse than substandard. Its workers were virtual slaves. Held in
the condominium complex were seventy two laborers who were first
to work as much as seventeen hours a day, seven
days a week for one six In some cases, the

(31:40):
sixty seven women and five men worked up to twenty
two hours for as little as fifty cents an hour
their which is varied therefore between about one third and
one tenth of the U S legal minimum wage. The
condominium was also a major fire hazard. There was no
rear exit and only small windows with thick iron bars.
A gain of eight smugglers had paid the workers air
fair from Thailand, promising them a bright her future in America.

(32:01):
Upon their arrival, However, the new immigrants were forced into
slave labor, working day and night to pay off their
passage fees. The fees ranged from forty eight hundred dollars
to twenty five thousand dollars. They were also threatened with beatings, rape,
and even death. Following the discovery, all seventy two workers
were arrested as a legal alien held by federal immigration officers,
but conditions had been so bad. One of the women said,
the day I was arrested, I was very happy. Budparangmak,

(32:24):
one of the people forced to stay at the compound,
claimed that a year ago, two people who tried to
escape were severely beaten and sent back to Thailand. He
also stated that workers were frequently beaten in the compound
to prevent escapes. Another worker from the al Monti sweatshop
claimed that she was told it would take three years
for her to pay off the forty eight hundred dollar
traveling fee. She was forced to pay three hundred dollars
a month. According to federal officials, threats against the workers

(32:45):
children or family members in Thailand were used to make
sure their parents continued sewing. Immigration officials had been aware
of the al Monty operation for three years, but the
local authorities acted only when they heard the testimony of
a woman who escaped through a ventilation shaft just weeks
before the raid. The eight time nationals who ran the
ring and its businesses were convicted of harboring and transporting
illegal immigrants, kidnapping, peonage, and other serious charges. A few

(33:07):
weeks after the discovery, over a million dollars of their assets,
including over eight hundred and sixty five thousand dollars in cash,
were distributed to the seventy two workers found in al
Monty and a thirty nine others who had worked in
the Los Angeles installations controlled by the ring. The smuggler
owners have been imprisoned the illegal immigrants, who do approximately
three point five million in back pay in penalties, The
Labor and Occupational Safety agencies of the State of California

(33:27):
asked for five hundred and fifty thousand dollars in penalties
from the sweatshop owners. Compensation has also been collected from
the garment manufacturers who con commissioned work from the man
from the contractor Major American Retails Change, which sold clothing
made in the swaves. The slave sweatshop include and even
Marcus Montgomery Ward and Sears. Stories such as these about
the Thai slaves of El Monty, California, symbolically represent one

(33:49):
of the main tendencies of contemporary global capitalism, the tendency
to level workers conditions down to or below a global
standard more like that of today's most vulnerable Third world
workers and that of yesterday's organized workers and the developed
industrial social order. This is the concrete meaning of the
race to the bottom. While the Thai slaves represent the
unusual worst case of the problems of labor in the

(34:10):
apparel industry and in other low wage industries in North America,
the rise of the new sweatshops is widespread. One responsible estimate,
often used by former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich, is
that up to half the entire apparel workforce of the
United States, potentially half a million workers, labor it below
the legal minimum wage or without legally entitled premium pay
for overtime hours. These workers also suffer unsafe and unsanitary conditions.

(34:33):
Such conditions include as many as fifty thousand workers in
New York City and seventy to ninety thousand in Los Angeles,
the two largest centers of garment production in the country.
The North American Free Trade Agreement, dissolving barriers to the
movement of goods and capital between the United States, Mexico
and Canada, is like the European Union and the General
Agreement on Tariffs and Trade, part of the project of

(34:53):
global capital and a very successful one. In thirty years,
a new form of capitalism has been borne out of
the crisis of mid century capitalism. The mid century type
of capitalism, known variously as monopoly capitalism or later ford
is um, was characteristically associated with the Kingsian welfare state,
but many of the characteristic forms and achievements of that
variant of capitalism have been superseded by a new one,

(35:14):
global capitalism. This, then, is the context of NAFTA, a
world project of capitalism to dissolve barriers to investment and
to lower cost of production in te lingibso facto a
systemic attack upon and loss of working class power and
social protections in the older industrial nations. Yet paradoxically, the
same world context makes more concrete than ever the rewards
of solidarity and the necessity of internationalism. Anyway, I mean

(35:38):
was a long one and it talks about the necessity
of something. Uh, like when I only a couple of things.
When I think about the compensation as people are deserved, Yeah,
I mostly think about like I don't know, ears and
pieces pieces of bodies, yes, um, but it is like

(35:58):
this is this is the thing that igerd was was
a huge part of. And we can tell from the
way he treated his workers in Canada and the way
he treated his workers in Mexico. This was exactly what
he wanted to happen. Like he saw he was one
of a number of people not to put too much
credit on this guy, but he saw the people who
made his products as a barrier to his profits. And

(36:20):
before NAFTA happened, he was working to do what he
could to ensure that they could not cut into his profits.
And he backed NAFTA and took advantage of it as
soon as it happened in order to cut the ability
of other people to make money off of the company
that he owned. Right, Like, that was the thing. The
people who made the products he wanted he was willing to,

(36:42):
you know, force him to take pregnancy tests, beat them, um,
lock them up for dayson and take their fucking passports.
Whatever it takes to make sure that like he gets
every dime he possibly can that anyway, I'm sure he
used for good and noble purpose, like I just I
can't even Yeah, that's that's what we're about to talk about. Yeah,
what he does with all the money he makes doing this?

(37:04):
Um so uh. In nineteen eight seven, Peter purchased land
in the Bahamas, where he soon began construction on a
sprawling estate. We will discuss this later, um. But in
two thousand three, an American couple sued him in Florida
for allegedly tricking them into accepting jobs managing this estate.
They further claimed that Niggard ignored Bahamanian immigration laws and

(37:26):
failed to obtain work permits for employees, which you may
notice is something of a pattern for him. You're gonna
need to give me those. I'll make sure you don't
lose them now. They also alleged that he find workers
for petty infractions, which Nigard conceded to doing during a
court case. He claimed this was done in cases of
quote lateness and poor quality work. Such penalties under law

(37:47):
are only allowed to be deducted from quarterly bonuses, but
Nigard illegally deducted them from weekly pay Forbes rights. Twenty
five dollar fines were common for such offenses as leaving
a dirty glass on a beach cabana, not having Niggard's
room enough when he arrived, and for the presence of
house flies in the grand Hall. Executives at Niagard corporate
offices lived under a similar threat of penalties. For example,

(38:08):
the employment contract of Norman Neil, a former vice president,
advised that after receiving full indoctrination, including so called basic
policy framework training, you would be septed to a fine
equal to five percent of his bonus for violations of
company policies. Neil was fired and he later sued for
breach of employment contract. Niagrid countersuit and the case was settled.
So this is just kind of the way this guy rolls,

(38:29):
and it is, I guess interesting that he treats his
vps kind of the same way. Um that that's honestly
the most house thing so far, like you'd think, I mean,
maybe it's just like all of the Hollywood indoctrination about
like even the evil capitalist rich people at their house
on the beach are like really into like seeming really

(38:50):
cool to the people who are around them, including like
the higher up people who work for them or whatever, like, no,
this guy is, it's amazing, it's it's yeah, he's comprehensively
a piece of ship. Now there's more things we could
say about Peter's treatment of his employees, but I think
we have now covered the most consequential cruelties. So it's
probably time to discuss the primary group of people outside

(39:13):
of laborers that he targeted for horrific cruelty, which was
any young woman who happened to be anywhere near his orbit.
Often the employees he abused where were obviously, as this
excerpt from The New York Times makes clear. A nineteen
eighty news article described an area of his office in Winnipeg,
the city in Manitoba where he built his company, as
a passion pit, with a mirrored ceiling and a couch

(39:34):
that transformed into a bed at the push of a button.
This is his office in Winnipeg. Um, if anyone calls
your boss's office a passion pit, it's time. That's not
a place. That's not don't go don't go to that's
not a good place. Don't go to the pack. Don't
go to anything called the passion pit unless it's like
a like a juice restaurant that that focuses on passion

(39:56):
fruit and like peaches a lot, and I guess it
might be okay, or like a kind of if you're
into the kind of sleazy swinger club that we call
itself the passion Pit. Obvious, no judgment. Look, if there's
if there's like a dirty bar in an industrial part
of Philly that promises key parties and like sixty five
cent rum and cokes and it's called the Passion Pit,

(40:18):
of course I'm going to go there totally. Yeah, that's
just a good time. Um, that's just a good time.
And then a number of doctor visits afterwards, but most
of that stuff anyway, whatever, Yeah, they got fucking things now,
So uh boy, I shouldn't lead directly from that to
this next paragraphs. You know we're gonna to Margarets Is,

(40:39):
We're going to roll to ads and just try to
let let a little bit of capitalism cleanse our palates.
This is our palate cleanser, little little little bit of
an ad break, dabble off down the shopping pause. Whoa,
it's all bad except for these ads. Oh we're back

(41:10):
over the years. Peter Nigard was repeatedly accused of demanding
for that female employees satisfy him sexually. Uh. There were
at least nine women in Winnipeg and Los Angeles who
accused him of sexual harassment or assault. Um. The New
York Times spoke to ten other women who said that
he had proposed sex, touched them inappropriately, or raped them. Um.

(41:31):
Since he sold fashion for women, Peter worked hard for
decades to maintain the image of an eccentric playboy. But
when it was basically good at heart, right, he would
dress ostentatiously, he would have this. He was always photographed
with models and stuff, and there's even photos of like
his passion pit and his like living room and stuff
and all of his fancy things. But his whole attitude
was that like, well, yeah, I'm a little bit of
a play with but look, you know, my mom and

(41:51):
my sister helped me run the company. Like I'm a
good guy at heart. I just like to um. Anyway,
when he wrote about his one brief marriage to a
model in the nineteen seventies, he refused to name her
and claim that she had left him after three years
because quote, I worked too hard, which is again you
see what he's doing here is He's like, look, yeah,
I had a marriage break up. It's because I worked

(42:12):
too hard. But like, that's not done me. And I'm
a bad guy, you know. I just that's what I do. Yeah, Um,
it's it's it's it worked for a while. In other interviews,
Niagret would bemoan that he had given up on the
concept of marriage. He claimed that in his youth it
had been about finding a partner you wanted to stay
with for life. Quote. It doesn't mean that anymore, he said,
claiming he was disillusioned about what marriage has turned out

(42:35):
to be. People aren't necessarily happier when they get married.
I think you can be a very good partner to
someone if you have to earn that partnership every day
rather than be legally bound to do it. Um. So
another good. Yeah, that sounds that's like fine, Like, but
that's not what he does. Um, that is very much
not what he does. Um. It certainly does not jell

(42:57):
with the picture of the man's relationship styles painted by
this Forbes profile quote. Niagard went on to have seven
children with four different women Karina Paca, and eventually gets
up to ten kids. Karina Paca, a former steward, has
fought him for years in Ontario courts for child support
for their then teenage son, and I could argue the
amount she saw it was excessive and would destroy the
child's work ethic. Give him a case of affluenza. I know, right,

(43:20):
what a what a cool guy? Um? Yeah, he's just
such a slee's ball. Um. But it works really well.
He's making fucking bank. He's like one of the biggest
names in fashion. Allegations of sexual harassment in the workplace
have flittered out around Peter for most of his career.
We know that. In nineteen eighty, the Winnipeg Free Press

(43:41):
reported that he'd been charged with the rape of an
eighteen year old girl by local authorities. Those charges were
dropped when the complainant refused to testify. I'll give you
some guesses as to why. Niagard claimed the police had
used poor judgment in investigating the case. He told the
Free Press that he planned to finance the creation of
a foundation to improve the Canadians audicial system. Never happened. Look,

(44:04):
I want to fix this. We all want to get
to the bottom of this problem, right, investigating us poor
innocent men. Yeah, it's poor innocent multi millionaires with at
this point twenty or thirty sexual assault and rape allegations
against them. A CBC investigation in the late two thousand
teens found Forbes says dredged up claims by former employees

(44:25):
that he'd abused In the nineteen nineties, It's alleged Niagard
paid to have three sexual harassment complaints settled through the
Manitoba Human Rights Commission. Since the cases did not go
to court, no records exist about what these cases were about,
but the Winnipeg Free Press published articles about the complaints.
One was from a twenty seven year old travel coordinator
who claimed she repeatedly brushed off Niagard's touches and sexual advances.

(44:48):
Another claims Niagard added skinny dipping to the agenda of
a business meeting. Business events were often held on his
Bahamanian compound, well Niagard would, according to one employee, frequently
grabbed himself while wearing a small aithing shoot suit. She complained,
I would find him in a state of undress, pants open,
no shirt, or with his hand down the front of
his pants fondling himself. Gus really subtle, Yeah he's you

(45:12):
will see a picture. You know what, Sophie, it's time
to show Margaret a picture of Peter Niard. This count
time for Margaret to see this man. Yes, this this violates.
Actually all of us have have have grounds to sue.
Now sue him for his photo. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm
trying to side which I'm gonna I'm just gonna go

(45:34):
to Google images he's he looks, and then just share
my screen because I can't. I can't pick one look
like Ethically, I can't suggest that like people get charged
with sexual harassment just based on their physical appearance. But
if you were going to do it, Peter Niagard would
be the guy. He looks like how Trump thinks he looks. Yes, yes,

(45:55):
that's exactly how he looks. And he has his hair
is sucking amazing. No, like um, he's got the like
silver fox thing down, but in a like creep Yeah,
like you could. Yeah, he wears. We'll talk about the
v NEX in a little bit really deep. He he

(46:19):
was jacked at one point, yeah, but he did. He was.
He was muscular at c He does look like he
looks like the bad guy from a Paul Verhoeven movie.
Like he looks like someone RoboCop would shoot at like

(46:39):
the like the hour and twenty five minute, or the
androids will hold over and be like I want more life. Yeah, yeah,
the androids will accuse him of sexual assault. Incredibly, Um
he's he's he does also look and this is bury
inside Baseball for people who live in's name through the

(47:00):
weather map, Dallas rains. I want that guy to be
good in every way because if so, yeah, from a
big dominative determinalists, so I can't imagine he's bad. But okay, okay, no,
See he looks nice, Peter Niagard, Peter n he looks

(47:21):
rich in all of his photos, but also like he
would leave a film if he sat in your car,
you would have to scrub it, and not just with
like a spray bottle and a little bit of like
like a paper towel, Like you need to actually get
like one of those green scrubby things to really get
in there, because it's going to get in the crevices.
The Niagard goo. So when the Free Press reached out

(47:42):
for comments on the case of him pulling down the
pant fondling himself in front of an employee, Niagard threatened
a defamation suit against the paper, the reporter and another employee.
He was accused of rape again by a Los Angeles
employee who he later fired. The case was eventually smissed.
Now none of these all again, this is the eighties

(48:03):
through the nineties, that none of these allegations do more
than cause mild talk, right, like, this does not harm
him in any way. There's not a lot of way
to search things on the internet, so unless you're really
paying attention to his life, it's not something you're gonna
just like drum up the fact that there's these stories
in fucking Canada about him. Um so now you've got
to live a life of opulence and semi glamour. He

(48:24):
co hosted an annual Oscar party in Los Angeles, which
he build as the Night of a Thousand Stars, actual
Hollywood in crowd, people knew it as the Night of
a thousand has Beens because no one but B listers
tended to show up. It was at one of these
parties that he may yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a real
Hollywood burn. And again, the people burning in here are

(48:44):
probably the people using Epstein as like him, So let's
not yeah anyway, it's at one of these parties that
he met Anna Nicole Smith, who he dated from two
thousand one. After she died of an overdose in two
thousand seven, he went on Montell Williams to claim that
he'd tried to get her off drugs, which based on

(49:07):
some things we'll talk about in a bit, I don't
think it's likely. Come on, it's very sad. It's a
real bummer, real bummer. Uh. Now, he had a private
plane where he did the normal rich guy stuff. They
put a bar in there, he put stripper poles in
a bed in there, and like, look, you've got a
private jet, which you shouldn't, but of course you're gonna

(49:29):
do some like wacky S seven ship like that. All
that is worth noting. He's doing this in like the
eighties and nineties. Um, this is all anyway. Whatever would
be like it's like led Zeppelin ship. Um. And at
least one instance, Nygard's seventeen year old girlfriend was filmed
dancing on one of the poles. So again, Epstein E

(49:52):
we're not yet getting into the stuff. That's yeah, but
we're starting to get into the Epstein stuff. Right. Flying
around children on your your sex plane, that's that's that's
abstain territory. We're in there, you know, we're we're running deep.
We've made a first down. That's a basketball term, right,
So if he's moving right along, Um, I'm gonna quote
from Forbes here. A former stewardess on his private plane

(50:13):
told of one incident in which Niagard was accompanied by
a bevy of topless women. At one point in midflight,
she recalls Niagard, wild haired and with his bathrobe open,
began berating her coworker, yelling, you are nothing, you are garbage.
When the stewardess tried to calm him down, he screamed,
I am God. Do you not understand. Even after the
security director intervened, she claims, Niagard continued to rage, shouting,

(50:34):
this is my plane. I could do whatever the hell
I want. That's that's the way the rules work. Cool guy,
Cool guy. I mean they do for him for like decades.
So that's why he feels that way. He's not like
making He hasn't like invented this out of peer like
that would normally be evidence of delusion, but for decades,
that's the way the world works for Peter. Like, not

(50:55):
that that's good, but that is the way the world
works for him because he gets away with all of
this for an extremely long time. Also, I should note,
for legal purposes, he denies that story above um, although
I don't think he'll be suing us anytime soon because
of where he's located. By far, Peter's most beloved possession. Yes, yeah, um,
By far Peter's most beloved possession, and the center of

(51:17):
his image is a care free playboy. Fuck Monster was
nigred k a chunk of the coastline of New Providence,
which is in the Bahamas, that he renamed after himself.
The compound was Mayan themed and it had the look
of a tropical temple city. I described the build no,
just just that that way just I have nothing to
add to that, but that stands for its own. It

(51:40):
does say a lot, right when you have built your
own Mayan temple city to yourself in the Bahamas, like
sovereign country that you have just bought an ignored. Um.
I would describe the build quality based on what I
can see is like Disney World quality. Like it looks
like it was. It looked pretty cool. I'm not gonna lie.

(52:01):
The Mayan temples didn't look bad. The grand hall was
thirty two thou square feet with a hundred thousand pound
glass ceiling. Uh Nigred k was featured on Lifestyles of
the Rich and the Famous. It hosted celebrities like Oprah,
who claimed I'm not living large enough after seeing it
for years. Yeah, yeah, there you go. Of course, Oprah constantly,

(52:24):
like a little D level villain in like seven or
eight of Art, moves through it. Yeah, just a little thread,
just like what's going on with her? She kind of
seems like she might be up to some evil stuff,
but also everyone loves her um fun stuff. Anyway. For years,
the compound was one of the most infamous examples of
wealthy access on the planet. I want to play a

(52:46):
clip for you, Margaret from a two thousand four show
called Life of Luxury. Now. The woman you're gonna hear
talking first is Bianca Nigred, who's his daughter and at
this point is the chief of operations for his compound. Hi, welcome,
nag Key. We have anything you could possibly imagine. Champoline
out on the water, tennis courts, basketball court, beach, volleyball, pool, volleyballs.

(53:10):
Every Sunday we have a paper party with nanicures and
pedicures and massages for I guess this highway of Heathenism
boast a hundred and fifty thousand square foot wonderlander of excess,
the ocean, the water slide. There's even a human aquarium
that's not crazy. I need to pack your back. Sorry.
The slice of having anchor rent it's the private, utopian

(53:35):
bachelor pet of this man Canada's clothing magnet. Peter and
I guard and entry is by invitation only. Personally, I
enjoyed the electric best when I have friends here with
which you shareff. It certainly is bigger enough with its
twenty two mem rooms built without walls, so that last

(53:56):
bets a little creepy, right without walls, built without walls,
and the human aquarium that does a shot. It's a
gross tank in as with a person in a bikini
in it. It is pretty fucking, pretty fucking Nardi and

(54:20):
we have not really started into the gross stuff. We've
started into the gross, but it gets a lot worse.
For now. You're not going to be surprised to learn
that a lot of those so called friends that he
likes to share his compound with, the ones who are
not celebrities, were extremely young women. Some of them were children.
A lot of them were children who were trafficked, sometimes
allegedly against their will, and systemically abused, systematically abused by

(54:44):
Peter Niagard. We're going to tell that story, and we're
gonna tell you a lot more in part two. But Margaret,
if you had tens of millions of dollars compound based
off of the stolen artistic style of a Central American
civilization on a Bahamanian island, where you committed a raft

(55:05):
of felonies, what would it be and what would the
felonies be? Well, the felonies is that people like that
would be in the aquarium and they would be in
there for just long enough to before we lift them
out again. It's just kind of a perpetual dunking tank
and anyone who comes can can dunk them in. Um.

(55:26):
That is that is what I would build. Yeah, yeah,
I think I would do like a Khokey amount, But
the mound is just a mass grave of guys like
that my throne of bastard spells. Yeah, I think the
I think the people of the Cookey Amounts would be
okay with that. Um anyway, Margaret, you got that's that's

(55:49):
all for part one. You got anything to plug? Well
after that? Enjoyable? Uh yeah. I have a book that
is probably out by the time you hear this, called
we Won't be Here Tomorrow, which includes such stories as
people programming drones to murder people like we're discussing the
show in a fictional s because it's fiction. Um. And

(56:14):
that book is out. And I also a host of
a podcast called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, where
you can hear um ban things that are sort of
like this, Um, Margaret Banger, we won't be here tomorrow,
but we will be back on Thursday. Part two, well done.

(56:35):
I just thought of that one. Also, I have a
book called After the Revolution. Find a K Press or
a K Press has a bunch of indie bookstores you
can order from. You can also get it from all
of the regular bookstores. It's it's all over the place.
Just type the words in and you'll find it. All right, everybody,
alright Margaret, alright, alright, Sophie, Off we go to Nigrid

(57:01):
but like in an i R kind of way. Yeah, there,
there we go. No. Behind the Bastards is a production
of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media,
visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check
us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.