Part One: The Clarence Thomas Story

Robert is joined by Miles Gray to discuss Clarence Thomas, a four part series. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
What's stroking out my all of Europe because of because
of the heat and the lack of air conditioning and
the houses built to retain heat and the climate change.
How you doing Europe? Everybody? Okay? Are you talking about?
Are you talking about the fun way that literally melted? Literally, Sophie,

(00:23):
it's forty c over there, which in real people numbers
is like a lot. Miles, do you know, Celsius? Do
you understand Celsius and co host of the Daily Zeitgeist Miles?
Why why do why do they use different numbers over
there for the temperature? We all know, man, they just
want to lord that ship over us because we kicked

(00:45):
England's ass. We fucking owned their ascids and then we
owned the only other country in Europe, Germany. Yeah that's right,
So that's right, that's the thing. We got the pane
stones for kicking Miles. We both know how terrible the
United States is. What is why do we have Why
is there such joy as an American and making fun

(01:06):
of Europe? What is it? What is that about us?
I think because we know that we have no history,
so that really it's like, you know, it's like when
you have like a dumb sports argument and like there's
that one thing someone can say about your team that's
so fucking true and it just upsets you and you
can't do anything about it. That's like when like Europeans

(01:26):
are like, but you have no history here is everything
is new like McDonald's and you're like, fuck you man,
and you're like, not true, that's true because it's all
stolen and built over. I have dranken a bar in
Dublin that is like was has been an operation since
before Columbus was a war criminal. Like, it's right, but

(01:49):
now you guys are toasty, so they're hold that. But
what's funny is too Like in Spain they know better.
In Spain, they're like, Yo, you're out in the middle
of the day, stupid. They're they're like, look, we we
we have yielded to capitalism in many ways, but we're
not giving up our naps in the four hours in
the middle. Jealous, it's forty, it's forty two. It's real

(02:14):
people numbers. That's like, what's seventy Jesus, I don't know,
I don't know. Nobody knows. You know what everyone does
knows that Clarence Thomas is a real piece of shit, Oh,
I can't wait a real he's he's a real one.
And we started this episode with some good old fashioned

(02:34):
American chauvinism, because most of this episode is going to
be talking about a number of things that are terrible
in our nation's history. Because the history of Supreme Court
Justice Clarence Thomas, the man who probably did more than
any other single government official to end rov Wade and
doing his best to end a number of other civil
rights UM is also the story of like everything that's

(02:57):
terrible about this country and its history. Like amazing how
much ship is packed into this guy's life and how
much like fucked up stuff. I mean, number one, you're
gonna be pretty sympathetic to this dude for the early
part of this UM. And I have to say one
of the things, like I want to start this, I
guess with like an admission for me, I think he's
probably the bastards pod subject. I've been wrongest about UM

(03:19):
because for a long time I've never even thought of
doing him until pretty recently. Not that I didn't think
he sucked, but like his years of like he's you know,
number one, for a very long time he was viewed
as like Justice Scalia's sidekick basically, um, and people who
knew anything about the Supreme Court were generally aware that
that was not fair. But I'm not a Supreme Court nowhere, Miles.

(03:44):
That's not my that's not my my strength. Um. But
even so, he's got years of like I knew he
had all these like cruel things he'd written into sense
and all this like regressive ship that he championed, So like,
I never doubted that he was a bastard. But again,
there's a reason why we don't cover everyone who just
sucks on this show, and it's because, like, also, they

(04:05):
need to be interesting, because this is entertainment to right,
And I kind of thought, like, well, he's just like
a shitty guy who became a judge. How much could
there possibly be in that fucking life story? And now
we're going to do a four partner on him? So holy,
I was very wrong about this guy. So let me
start by admitting that, Okay, this is like we're getting

(04:28):
a true we're getting the origin story, yeah, of the villain,
and a lot of weird shitty stuff spoilers. We're gonna
be talking about pubic hair. No, yeah, I don't remember
that weren't now. I don't know if you remember this part, Miles,
I forgot where I was, where I learned about all

(04:50):
the things I didn't know. I didn't want to know
that was that was a horrendously evil laugh, and I
didn't have been working on it. I've been working on it,
thank you. I'm sorry. I went to I went to
a class hosted by the Riddler this weekend about unleashing
your inner batman villain, And uh, I don't know. I
don't want to like. I don't want to like. I

(05:10):
don't want to like toot my own horn because I'm
early in the process. But I did just kidnap a
billionaire's son. So a little bit of applause, a little
bit of applause. I'm working on it's gonna be good. So, Miles,
if you casually read about Clarence Thomas the way most
people do, because who's got the time to really know
that much about the Supreme Court? While we all do
now because it's an immediate threat to all of our futures. Um.

(05:32):
But if you, if you read these like real casual
breakdowns of him, you'll learn a couple of things. He's
very conservative, he never talks during oral arguments. He's been
known as the silent Justice for that reason. Um, although
that's changed kind of recently, and he got his start
as justice school, he's like he was kind of his
Licks Bill, right, he would vote the same way Scooley
at it all the time. That's at least when people
would say about him. And then of course there's the

(05:53):
fact that he's sexually harassed Anita Hill, who was questioned
by Congress and ultimately ignored when Thomas was voted in
on the narrowest margin in Supreme Court history. That's like
the the baseball card, you know, version of Clarence Thomas's
history stats, the stats, right, all of that is technically true, um,
with the exception of him being Justice kalias lick Spill.

(06:14):
We'll talk about that later, um. But it turns out
it's also also incomplete that I now feel not going
into detail about the life and beliefs of Clarence Thomas
is kind of a disservice, So here we go. Clarence
Thomas was born on June twenty three, nineteen forty eight,
in an unpowered wooden shack on the edge of a
title swamp near the small town of pinpoint Georgia. Um,

(06:37):
as you might have guessed from everything in that last sentence,
he was born into the kind of poverty that most
of us who are capable of listening to podcasts can
only dimly comprehend. Very few, even as bad as poverty
is in the very few people exist in that kind
of poverty in the United States. This day, right um,
like it is he is he is living, this is night.

(06:57):
He's living with access to like eighteen forties technology. For
the most part, right like that is this kid's childhood.
That's this kid's like the world he comes into. Um.
His great great grandmother had been born into slavery and
emancipated at age nine because of there's his war um Um.
She had a son, uh and that her son had

(07:17):
several young kids and then abandoned those kids, leaving her
to take care of them. So that's his grandmother. Uh.
Now one of his grandmother's son's kids who gets abandoned
by her son is a guy named Myers Anderson, who
is Clarence's grandfather on his mother's side. Um. Myers refused
to ever speak about his own father, but he also

(07:38):
would follow in his footsteps. So Myers has a daughter,
Leola Williams Um, who is Clarence's mom. Um and Leola
is born out of wedlock. Her mother, myers partner dies
in a subsequent childbirth when she's three. Uh. Now, Myers
is not the kind of guy who wants to have daughters.
He thinks that's kind of a waste of time. So

(07:58):
he decides he's not going to raise his daughter, and
he sends her to Pinpoint, Georgia, where she's raised by
his sister, her aunt. Um. Her her aunt is not
a nurturing kind of person. It's a very strict upbringing,
and there's never any belief that like Leola is going
to have a future right like, she does not have prospects. Um.

(08:19):
Aunt Annie was illiterate. UM, so Leola doesn't really learn
how to read as a little girl. UM and Aunt
Annie keeps her kind of ward whatever you wanna call her,
from playing with other children. She doesn't want to let
her socialize. She wants to keep strict control over her
so she doesn't get pregnant young like it tends to happen.
Leola was so desperate for some kind of childhood that

(08:41):
she made dolls for herself out of clumps of weed,
washing the roots to simulate hair. So like again when
we're talking about how poor these people are, Clarence's mom
is making dolls out of clumps of weed, like weeds,
Like that is yeah, that's like a level yeah right,
And like when you always talk about parenting, it's like

(09:02):
we're all just trying to break cycles. Yeah, like what
our grandparents did, what they did. So that's where we're
starting here, Like you're saying, like centuries past, you've got
centuries of slavery and families being forcibly broken up. And
then a pretty bad pattern gets started by um by
myers father who leaves the family. And Myers doesn't abandon

(09:24):
his kids because he has a relationship with him, but
he also doesn't want to take care of daughters, so
he just kind of shuffles them off to whatever the
oldest member of his family is, right, and that person
is like, well, if you have any kind of freedom,
you're clearly going to have even more kids before you're
ready for him. So I'm going to basically make you
live in a prison. So that's how Leola grows up. Um,
when she's sixteen, she gets pregnant anyway with Clarence's older

(09:47):
sister mmam ay and she drops out of school. Um.
Leola was still a teenager when she had Clarence. A
little bit after she has m m a uh. The
shock that they lived in was insulated with newspaper and
talked with library A repaced that was again like that's
what they have access to, right, like where are things free?
What is it that you can get your hands on
in order to like fill holes in your house? Just

(10:09):
just about as desperate as it gets. Um. Clarence's younger
brother was born a little more than a year after him.
Now you will notice that I have not talked a
lot about their father. Clarence Thomas's dad is known as M. C.
Thomas UM. And the reason he doesn't show up in
this story much is that because as soon as he
has three kids with Leola, he abandons her and his

(10:30):
family because he's gotten someone else pregnant and her dad
threatened to shoot him if he didn't marry her. So
this is a rough start, right, I think it's okay.
So it's the worst parts of everything go on this.
It is like one of those if you were if
you were like writing this background for like a fictional character.

(10:52):
People would be like, all right, well, maybe pick like
one of these things. Yeah. An editor would be like,
it feels like you're putting a hat on top of hat. Yeah,
and that's how vivid this the history of suffering is. Yeah,
it is. It is deeply difficult. Um. And it's worth
noting the community and Pinpoint. This kind of upbringing is

(11:13):
not common for other people who live in Pinpoint, which
is a black community. Um. It is a very traditional community.
It is very uncommon there for a father to leave
his family or for children to be born outside of wedlock.
Everyone is extremely religious here. So from the start, Clarence
doesn't just grow up with all of this going on
in his family, which is tremendously difficult. He's also ostracized.

(11:34):
It is made clear to him by other people in
the area that his upbringing is fundamentally different and like
fucked up right, yeah, um right, So yeah, it's this
is fucking spooking me out, man, because it's so we
we constantly look at figures like this, like especially especially

(11:55):
the Supreme Court, where you're looking at this idea that
you know, on a whim, they can con curtail all
these human rights and We're just like, how the fuck
what's going on with you that you think it's all good?
And to hear this story even started for this early on,

(12:15):
I'm like, oh, fuck, this sounds again. It sounds like
centuries of like compounded negativity suffering coming together to form
like this human being. And you're like, oh my god,
of course, like it's you can't fathom it. Yeah, and
it's I mean, this is probably why it's a bad

(12:36):
idea to just like pick nine random people, uh and
be like you you are our god kings. Now, yeah,
that's because all sorts of ship might have gone on
in their backgrounds that make them do real wild ship
and maybe yeah, that's not good. Um, I don't know,
Like you don't have to have had this background to
wind up trapped in them. Nearly everybody winds up kind

(12:58):
of trapped in the past to extent. You know, maybe
you just love the music of the nineteen nineties, but everybody,
everybody like winds up growing up with something that you
never quite moved past. Right, which is why one of
the many reasons why people shouldn't be able to hold
too much power over each other, because we develop all
these weird fucking hang ups, and it's best to just
kind of minimize the damage that can do, is my attitude. UM.

(13:22):
So yeah, we've covered some desperate origin show stories on
this show, but I have to say, like Clarence Thomas's
early childhood is like it's up there, you know. Um,
that is that is rough. His dad, you know again,
leaves as soon as he gets another woman pregnant. It's
possible that Clarence's dad was bigumous lee married. Um. The
legalities here are very unclear, but none of his kids

(13:44):
were planned. In general, that was not super common um
with his family. His mother later told interviewers, quote, we
didn't know anything about birth control or where babies came
from when you got pregnant. You just had it. So yeah, Um,
as I said at earlier, Clarence grows up aware that
he's not living with the kind of family that most

(14:05):
kids have. You know, everyone is extremely pinpoint, Like money
isn't a thing anybody has. But most kids have fairly
stable family networks, um, and you know are born kind
of with at least that in their lives. Clarence is
aware that he's missing something. A black journalist who knew
Thomas when he was growing Up told Jane Mayor and

(14:26):
Jill Abrams and the journalist I believe is anonymous for
understandable reasons. Jane Mayor and Jill Abrams, authors of the
book Strange Justice, quote, he starts out as a little
black boy, not accepted in the black world. He has
no money, no family. This puts him at the bottom
of the pecking order amongst Southern blacks, a community that
is far more closed minded and rigid than many whites. Imagine,
as soon as he was born, he was just out

(14:47):
there a floater. So that's one attitude at least on
his background, right, that's a single person's opinion. Um. Now,
once his dad leaves, his mom was forced to move
in with the aunt who had raised her miserably. Um.
And she le was her kids with the aunt who
had raised her, this very strict woman who like has
had a life I can't even imagine in terms of difficulty.

(15:09):
And Clarence's mom moves to Savannah, fifteen miles away, which
is a lot further back than to work as a
live in servant for a rich white family so that
she could send money back home. She made fourteen dollars
a day when she visited her kids, they would regularly
ask about their father, um, and you know, she would
didn't really have a good answer for where he was um.

(15:30):
And this was made more miserable that by the fact
that their father's father, their grandfather on their dad's side,
was the town bus driver, so that they had to
see their grandpa every day without like having a relationship
with them because like their dad was just gone. Yeah. Rough,
So life in Pinpoint was extremely difficult for Again, the
poverty here is very intense. Leola, like most local women,

(15:53):
took the job that you could get as a woman
in Pinpoint, which was working at a crab and shrimp factory. Uh.
This is the kind of thing that most women who
grew up there spent their entire lives picking crab and
shrimp out of shells from dawn until dusk. Leola started
when she was nine, which was very common. Um. This
is how people spend their whole lives and fucking pen um.

(16:14):
It was illegal for her to start work at nine,
but the plant owner didn't care, and neither did the
government of Georgia. And this is not a place where
government inspectors come. Right, nobody's showing up in Pinpoint to
check on these people because they are poor and black. Um,
So the government doesn't give a ship what happens as
his life begins. Clarence seemed destined to a similar life path.

(16:35):
This is what happened to most people in pinpoint Um.
Education did exist technically, but it had to be done
in between brutal workshifts because you have to help your
family survives, so like learning and stuff come secondary um.
And of course you can't continue school once you have
kids of your own, which often happens at like fifteen
or sixteen. A lot of folks around him are alliterate. Again,

(16:56):
it's not it's looking like this is more or less
the path he's going to wind up on, just because
there's not a lot of options because set of segregation.
People in pinpoint we're not allowed to use the local beaches,
the libraries, or the parks um. All of those were
outside of pinpoint Um. And even if they'd been able
to afford traveling to such luxuries, again, there was segregation.

(17:17):
The constitution technically guaranteed them the right to vote, but
there were poll taxes and literacy tests in Georgia that
made it basically impossible. In the rare occasions where a
Pinpoint resident would wind it in the same court as
a white person. They were made to swear on separate bibles. Um.
This is like as Jim Crow as it gets. Um. Now,
this is not the kind of upbringing that you would

(17:37):
expect somebody to be able to like get a law
degree and become a Supreme Court justice from And it
did not happen too many kids in Pinpoint. Um. But
in nineteen fifty five, when Thomas was six, his life
changed to his intense and lasting fortune. He and his
brother accidentally lit their curtains on fire with a wood
stove and burnt their family house to the ground. Uh.

(17:59):
This put their eight aunt. She was no longer able
to take care of them, right because like they were
in her house now, so her mom, their mom takes
them in at first, but she is living in servants quarters,
which is like this filthy tenement in Savannah. Um that's
like built by rich people to be as small as
possible so their servants just have a place to live. Um.

(18:19):
It is a single bedroom with an outdoor toilet. Um.
And it's not a kind of thing that you can
really raise. Two boys in Leola begged their father for help. Um,
he wasn't willing to do anything. So she started to
beg her father, Myers Anderson, who had abandoned her, for help. Um,
and Myers eventually agrees to help because again, they're boys, right,

(18:41):
he didn't really care about raising girls, but these are boys. Um.
Now I'm gonna quote again from Strange Justice to talk
about how Clarence would later relate what he said had happened. Quote.
Thomas's recollection of how Myers Anderson came to intercede is
somewhat different. He has told a number of people over
the years that at about this that time, his mother
became romantically involved with a man who had interest in
taking on her children. As his friend Michael Middleton remembers it,

(19:03):
Thomas told me his mother dumped him and his brother
on the grandfather because she'd met some man. So, by
the age of seven, Clarence Thomas had been abandoned by
both parents. Now that could be true. She could have
liked decided to abandon them, but it seems more likely
that she was just in a desperate situation and did
it help from her grandfather. Clarence hates his mom. Um.

(19:23):
He is like will be mean to her his entire life.
You can have whatever opinion on that you want. I
think he might have made that up. He makes a
lot of stuff about his back story up. Oh interesting, Yeah, yeah,
I mean because that absolutely when you describe, you know,
her living situation, How could how could anyone think like
that that was going to be the place where, yeah,

(19:45):
she could have her kids grow up. Well. Yeah, and
Myers is kind of like if you're if you're Leola,
Myers is a great person to give your kids to because,
unlike everyone else you know in your life, he has money.
He gets out of pinpoint. We're talking about this in
a bit, but he is doing well financially. So it's
not just like, well, you're a man in my family

(20:06):
and I need help with these kids. It's well, you
have fucking resources, and I've literally never met another single
person who has resources. Um. So yeah, Myers is not
thrilled to take on new kids. Uh. He yells at
Leola and he refuses it first, but then his wife
threatens to leave him. Uh, and so he agrees to
take in both boys. Uh. Now Clarence has an older

(20:27):
sister too, m m A. Myers. Anderson still refuses to
help with her, he's only going to raise the boys.
Oh my god, it's it's yeah, the worst fucking messages
are constantly being reinforced. This person as like a child
and you're my god, like you're seeing it all start
forming like so early, where it's like, no, Um, I

(20:50):
have value because I'm boy. Yeah, I have value because
I am boy, and like I am being now separated
from my community and given an opportunity no one else's
and um, yeah, a whole bunch of ship is going
to to result from this. Um so m m A.
His sister remains living in poverty with her aunt, um
living with like family because their house got burnt down. Um. Now,

(21:12):
while up to this point, again Clarence and his brother
had been as poor as it gets, once they move
in with Myers, there suddenly middle class instantly his life Obviously,
this is a fucking man who grows up in the
late eighteen hundreds in Georgia a black man. His life
was grueling and tremendously difficult. Um. He had never gotten
beyond a third grade education, but he had turned a

(21:33):
pushcart business into a coal ice, uh and oil delivery business.
Like he's delivering fuel to local businesses and stuff. Um,
and his business has done well enough that he's bought
rental properties and a small farm. Like he is extremely
successful and a very intelligent man. Um. He had attempted
to expand into contracting, like helping with like construction of

(21:54):
houses in Savannah, but he had been denied a permit
to make cement because of racism. Um, so he is
he has hit Basically, Myers has hit the height of
success that you're allowed to achieve as a black man
in Georgia in this period of time. And it's also
been made very clear of him that you're not allowed
to get do better than this, you know. Yeah, so yeah,

(22:16):
that said, obviously, his situation is still light years beyond
what Thomas had enjoyed before. And once they're living with
their grandpa, Clarence and his brother have electricity, uh, they
have indoor plumbing, and most importantly, they have access to
good private schools right. Um. Now, in return, they have
to deal with Myers Anderson and this section from a

(22:37):
write up in The Atlantic gives an idea of what
he was like to live under. Quote. Anderson wouldn't let
Thomas or his brother wear work gloves on the family
farm as they cut sugarcane or helped butcher livestock. He
never praised the boys or showed them affection. He feared
the evil consequences of idleness. Thomas wrote in My Grandfather's Son,
and so made sure that we were too busy to

(22:57):
suffer them. In his presence, there was no play, no fun,
and little laughter. So that's good. That's all My all
my favorite homies grew up like that, good and normal
guy to raise some kids. Hates women, never smiles, makes
you hurt yourself, and your book is still my grand

(23:19):
grandpa's my grandfather's son or whatever. Well, when Clarence gets older,
we'll talk about this. But he decides the fact that
his grandpa because his grandpa is like the right wing
platonic ideal of like a grandfather, Right, he's this horrid
of working man who like doesn't cry, doesn't smile, you know,
strict discipline, um and and even though he doesn't really

(23:41):
get along with his grandpa in real life, once he's
in politics, he recognizes that his grandpa is like, that's
a money making endeavor, right, you can sell that to
these white Republicans like that that you had this this
strict background. And because he was so strict. We got
so far. You know, I wasn't able to be too
black because I was my My grandfather made sure there

(24:03):
was no riff raffian stuff happening, like it's it's really God,
it's so fucking again. With every fucking layer you add
to this ship, you start understanding his resentment of all
kinds of people, of women, whatever, and you're like, it's
and it's wrapped in such trauma that like you can

(24:23):
see how that manifests into somebody with a fucking like
demonic agenda like this. Yeah, it's not going to be
surprising that the ends he reaches, like some of them
will be surprising, I guess, but like a lot of
this does make sense. So Thomas would later write that
his grandfather made sure that both boys knew that they

(24:45):
had to quote work twice as hard to get half
as far um, and that like, yeah, that was just
the way ship worked in the United States, which could
be fair. Did Yeah, Yeah, I mean that's I think
a lot not just him, a lot of people all.
I was told that too, but it was it was
twice as hard for half the pay. Yeah, yeah, that
is like, yes, I and I have again we've talked

(25:05):
about like, he's not an entirely credible narrator about his
best I have absolutely know whether or not his grandfather
said those exact words. I have no doubt that he
wanted to get that across to those kids. That's sucking true. Um. So,
while Myers clearly wanted both boys to be successful, that
was kind of where his concern with them ended. He
wanted them to be able to make like money and

(25:29):
be successful in society. Um. He seemed to have not
even money as much as he wanted them to have
like a position, right, Like he wanted them to have
like do make status? Yeah, exactly, status. He did not
really seem to care about them as human beings. Um.
Thomas later told colleagues in government that Myers rarely spoke
to him except to order him to do chores. A

(25:51):
Yale law school colleague claims that Clarence told him a
physical frequent physical punishments for misbehavior. If he or his
brother overslept, quote, they'd have the ship beaten out of them. Um.
And the book Strange Justice goes into even more detail. Quote.
So Thomas and his brother were made to rise before
dawn and help their grandfather deliver coal and oil, and
spent their holidays and weekends doing heavy farm work for him.

(26:13):
There seemed to be a tinge of cruelty in some
of Anderson's weekends and some of Anderson's actions. Thomas, for instance,
recalled that his grandfather had removed the heater from the
fuel delivery truck because he felt that even on freezing
winter mornings, heat was not conducive to good work habits.
In the old fashioned way of make. Of many such families,
challenges to authority were met with frequent and humiliating corporal punishment.

(26:34):
A particular torture was the front hall coat closet, where,
according to Leola Williams, Anderson used to lock the boys
when they misbehaved. My daddy was hard. The kids couldn't
get away with nothing, she recalled. Sometimes, when her father
was too tired or busy to beat the boys himself,
Leola said he would call her to whip them for him,
but the little boys soon got too fast for her
to catch, so instead, she said, I would have to

(26:56):
throw my shoes at their heads to catch them at all.
So harsh, So harsh was the physical punishment. According to Armstrong,
Williams later Thomas's aide at the E E O C.
But Thomas still bears a thin scar from a whipping
his grandfather administered with an electrical cord. So like, yeah,
that's not maybe don't do that kids every lay I

(27:16):
mean yeah, I mean, I mean that kind of ship
is so common man. Yeah, and the the whole later
generations too. It's like there's the common stuff and then
there's the I've removed the heater from the truck because
because being warm will make you work badly. Like, yeah,
he's he's got again every every layer because it's like

(27:38):
not a single thing was like good except for the
like his access to like fire society. Essentially he has
access to money, but like none to affection. And again,
I think the actual the physical punishments described there, that
is just the norm across certainly the South, right, and
and not just the South in the unit that's everywhere right,
Like that is that is incredibly common. Those attitudes that like, yeah,

(28:02):
you're gonna whip them with a fucking cord if they
don't do something right, you pop a kid in the
fucking face, you know, Like that is like my in Oklahoma,
my public fucking school spanked us and ship and that
was in the nineties. Like the attitudes, particularly in rural areas,
of like physical punishment towards kids are not at all
uncommon in this period. It's the weird. You have to

(28:24):
be miserable. You can't let yourself relax, you can't let
yourself like feel good for a moment when you're working,
because that will make you lazy, and that's dangerous. That
I think is the thing that is actually really different
about his upbringing, right right, yeah, yeah, just if it's
again is it freaks me out even more every single

(28:47):
thing like it adds to someone being even more rigid,
unable to see the good in anything, and acts out
like their powerlessness in youth in a way to feel
like omnipotent even it's through if it's through destruction. But
you know who is omnipotent through their destruction. Miles Um,

(29:10):
which which aeronautics company the products and services and support
Miles are primary sponsor in this podcast, is the corporation
you probably know from one of their many delicious beverages,
but who is also building a laser to end all
life on earth. See has realized that capitalism can't continue
to expand indefinitely. But what can expand indefinitely is the

(29:34):
circle of debris when we blow up the Earth. So
by a fund the space laser that will end all life.
That's our that's our motto promo code kill us all
go ah, We're back. So Meyer sends the boys to

(29:55):
a Catholic school, Um, which is he is also he's
a Catholic convert to which matters to Catholics, Um, but whatever, um,
And he's primarily it seems like he kind of converts
to Catholicism because that offers more opportunities. If you are
a Catholic, you can go, you can send your kids
to Catholic school. Like, it's a good community, it provides

(30:16):
more support, right. Um. So the school he sends the
kids to cost about twenty bucks a year, which even
then is not expensive for a private school, right, Like
that's not a fortune back in those days. Um, but
it's still I mean, it's certainly outside the reach of
most families in PenPoint, who meant, probably never saw twenty
dollars in one place at the same time in their lives. Um.

(30:38):
And what to the point, Um, it's out of reach
of like a lot of black people in particularly rural
Georgia in that period. Because it is while it is
a segregated school, it's a pretty good school because it's
a Catholic school, right, so it has access to resources
that public schools often don't. Um, it's got a more
progressive background than most. It had been founded in eighteen

(30:58):
seventy eight uh Reconstruction by a group of white Franciscan
nuns who believed that black people could be good Catholics,
which was real controversial at one point, Like oh my,
wh yeah, well, locals in in Savannah called them the
inward Nuns like that was yeah, that's who found the

(31:19):
school that he goes to, and it is a good education.
The nuns clearly cared about teaching their students and doing
so well. That said, they are also Catholic nuns in
the nineteen fifties, so they're beating the hell out of
these You talk to anybody who goes to a Catholic
school in the fifties, they're getting the ship slapped out
of them with rulers like that is that's just how

(31:40):
that stuff goes, right, Yeah, Okay, so again, hey, so
how is school like pretty good teachers like kind of
forward thinking and challenge their beliefs and things. No, they
beat the fun out. Well it's even worse. It's like
they were forward thinking for the time and also reading
the funk out of actually a little bit from column.

(32:02):
They believed we were people, so it was important to
hit us in order to make us learn. Yeah, the
fifties man quite quite a time. Um. So, Yeah, segregation
officially ends in nineteen fifty four. Um, that doesn't mean
that kids in all white and all black schools suddenly

(32:23):
stopped going to those though, right, It's a process. Um.
And so it's not until nineteen sixty four, when Thomas
starts attending an elite Catholic high school that he actually
is an integrated classrooms. So fairly early on in his childhood,
segregation legally ends, but it's not until he's in high
school that he actually is in an integrated classroom. Um.

(32:46):
So he winds up, you know, finally going to a
school that is not like segregated based on race. And
he would later call state enforced segregation quote as close
to totalitarianism as I would like to get, um, which
is interesting because he's only it actually it ends when
he's six, right, So like right at the start of
his education is when segregation ends. Um. You might want

(33:08):
to look at that as like an example of him,
like kind of playing up the story. I don't think
necessarily that it is. I think it more speaks to
the fact that the legacy of segregation exists in his
life throughout his childhood, even though again it ends very
early on in his life. Um, but it doesn't end
because it's not a clean break like we often like praticum. Yeah, Um,

(33:31):
So Clarence, his father remains close to a complete, not
non entity for the rest of his childhood. Years later,
during a speech at Pepperdine University, Clarence would give a
bit of detail into one of the only interactions he
ever has with his dad. Quote, I saw him only
twice when I was young. The first time was when
my mother called her parents with whom my brother, Myers,
and I then lived, and told them that someone at

(33:51):
her place wanted to see us. They called a cab
and then sent us to our housing project department, where
my father was waiting. I am your daddy, he told us,
in a firm, shameless voice that carried no hint of
remorse for his inexplicable absence from our lives. He said
nothing about loving or missing us, and we didn't say
much in return. It was as though we were meeting
a total stranger. But he treated us politely enough, and
even promised to send us a pair of Elgin watches

(34:13):
with flexible bands, which were popular at the time that
we watched them all the mail every day. The watches
never came, and when a year or so had gone by,
my grandparents bought us for them, bought them for us instead.
My father had broken the only promise he ever made
to us. After that, we heard nothing more from him,
not even a Christmas or Birthday card. For years, my
brother and I would ask ourselves how a man could

(34:33):
show no interest in his own children. I still wonder.
I do feel like that's overwhelmingly the reaction to these
at attempts, like God, damn, they're so fucked up. You're like,
you couldn't you couldn't construct someone who has been through
all this kind of like shit, that would make you

(34:54):
fucking this guy anyway. One of two things to one
with that anecdote with his grandparents and the watches says
that they've got them. The watches is one of two
things is true either well, I guess one of three
things is to either maybe he played up how hard
his grandfather was and there was actually more softness in
that relationship than he wanted to admit and this is

(35:15):
an example of it. Or his dad was just so
shitty that even his fucking grandfather was like, all right,
like I gotta get these kids the fucking watches like
this is just too bad. Or it's grandma right, or
grandma was was the one that that happened. I mean,
either way, I think even if you even if you're lying,
but that's what you want. That's who you want people

(35:37):
to think you are. Yeah, that's also pretty instructive, Like
at every level, many things can be true. He is.
There's a lot to think about here. Um So when
he starts high school, he is a member of the
first generation of his family to enjoy any kind of quality. Again,
his grandfather has a third grade education, not uncommon at
the time. Um And yeah, so he is he is

(36:00):
the first male member of his family, he and his
brother because they're about the same age to go to
a good high school. Um. As the book Strange Justice
makes clear, a good deal of his opportunity here came
as a result of the successes of the civil rights movement. Right,
it's not just his grandfather's success. It is the fact
that a lot his people have been fighting for him

(36:20):
to have this opportunity. Quote and Thomas's first year of life.
President Harry Truman, in a controversial State of the Union
addressed called for more extensive civil rights laws, including the
establishment of some sort of fair employment practices program, the
butt of the idea that eventually grew into the e
O C. The speech touched off such furious opposition in
Georgia that Senator Richard B. Russell proposed to export, exporting

(36:42):
the state's black population to the north. Leading the fight
against such racial progress was the staunch segregationist Jay Strom Thurmond,
the same man who would champion Thomas's nomination to the
Supreme Court some four decades later. On May seventeenth, nineteen
fifty four, when Thomas was five, the Supreme Court handed
down its unanimous dei ordering the end of public school segregation.

(37:02):
The lead attorney was Third Good Marshall, then the head
of the in a CPS legal defense fund. Marshall is
who Clarence Thomas is going to replace. On the spring
so Grandpa Myers would have agreed with the fact that
like his son's or his grandson's opportunities were a result
of both his hard work and all of the civil
rights fighting. Because Myers Anderson was a dedicated member of

(37:24):
the Double A CP, he earned he earned the nickname
in town Sharpshooter for the skill with which he targeted
Boycott's against racist white businesses. Um. He is. Again, he's
like a hard dude, but he also with the feeling
that if you're fighting on like you want this motherfucker
on your side and a fight like he's he's good.
I mean, he's the worst fucking grandparents. It's a shitty grandpa.

(37:47):
But uh, he provided the a CP chapter with free
heating fuel in the winter at the expense of his business. Um.
One friend of the so clearly he did think that
it was bad for them to have heating. I don't know,
I don't know how to parts that all apt. Everything's
very conditional. Yeah. Yeah. One friend of the family at

(38:09):
the time noted that Clarence attended a few in Double
A CP and meetings as a boy, but he was
at boarding school for a lot of the time, right, Um,
and a number of like folks who grew like grew
up with him and report on this time will say that, like,
while they were doing in double A CP stuff, he
was at boarding school quotes surrounded by whites. Um. Clarence
recalls his school differently. He describes it as an entirely

(38:32):
black environment, and both of his schools were a majority black. Um.
It's again, we're not ever getting objective when we're talking
about the people who knew him or him. This is
everything's filtered through decades of memory because this is all
a long time later, and everyone's feelings on the matter too.
So I don't want to like put one side or
the other as like right about what was going on here? Yeah,

(38:55):
you want to do both sides, well, at least, like
I don't know, I wasn't Actually I'm not. I'm up
growing up in fucking Savannah, Georgia in nineteen fifties. Um,
but it is it is worth noting that, like, he
benefits from the civil rights struggle, but his grandpa has
also put him in a situation where he's not taking
part in it, you know. Yeah, yeah, exactly, He's already

(39:17):
has gigantic chips on both shoulders. Yeah, and at least
at this point it seems to be kind of it
won't be later, but that is he does have that
ability as a child that it is kind of abstract. Um.
So this is one of those areas where we get
into the inconsistencies between how other people described Thomas as
youth and how he has described it since once he

(39:38):
became a conservative political figure, and this happens before he's
a Supreme Court justice. He's lobbying for years. Thomas made
a point of claiming in speeches that he would give
for things like the Federalist Society and all these colleges.
He would always make the claim that he had succeeded
in spite of a low quality education. Right. In one speech,
he told an audience quote, I don't understand how it

(39:59):
is that people today are getting worse educations than I
received in the segregated schools of Savannah. Now we already
know that, Like that's not a hundred percent accurate, right,
Like just based on his actual background, because he went
to a very high quality series of private schools. Um. Now, obviously,
like there's a lot to say about that, but it's
just not true. Like the things that he would claim

(40:21):
about his education. Um, and he's obviously as a right winger,
he's claiming that in order to be like, look, the
schools don't need more money. The poor schools that I
went to did a better job than modern schools. There's
some cultural thing that's making the schools bad where it's like, no, man,
your grandpa paid for you to go to a great
private school. Dude, Like, yeah, he's playing. Yeah, he's Mr.
Ultimate Bootstraps. Yeah, and it's fine, Like it's good that

(40:43):
your grandpa did that for you, but like, don't pretend
that you like had a hard, scrubble scrabble public school
education because you didn't. Well. I think that's like the thing,
right because if if there's a fork in the road
of your like choose your own myth making adventure, you
want to choose the against all odds, right, because that's
part of especially in with America, like every most people

(41:04):
want to obscure the fact that like you know, they're
like a generational uh, they were generationally admitted to like
an Ivy League school and like, no, man, like it
was all hard graft, came from the nowhere. And I
think for him too, that really helps for like multiple
levels to be like, yeah, I went to a shitty school.
That's why they don't need anything. And also look what
I did, folks, lifted myself out. It's fucked up because like,

(41:27):
obviously there's a funckload of kids and family members of
his who grew up in Pinpoint who could have gone
as far as he did, or at least like got
a hell of a lot further than they did in
the capitalist sense of the word, but didn't because they
had to grow up in Pinpoint picking fish out of
like shells and stuff, because that was the only opportunity
they got. He gets thankfully, um, like luckily, I should say,

(41:50):
he gets an opportunity because of his who you know,
who his grandfather is. Um, but he doesn't like to
acknowledge that in the future, except for like when he
does he has to. He does acknowledge his grandfather, but
always in the way his hardness shaped him as opposed
to the way his resources provided opportunities. And I think
that's really interesting. Um, So this just like the wow,

(42:15):
Yeah that is thways, I was just carved out of
my grandpa's sternness. Yeah, I mean it makes sense that
this is like the way he's going to claim it. Um,
So this next bit gets into some territory that is
definitely uncomfortable and difficult for me to parse out. Well, Um,
but we're gonna talk about the specific kind of racism

(42:36):
that Clarence dealt with in his youth. Um, And a
lot of it did not come from where I think,
at least where I would have expected, being a fucking
white dude who did not grow up in Savannah, Georgia. Uh.
And I'm gonna quote from a ride up in the
New Yorker here. His nickname in the schoolyard in the
streets was ABC, America's blackest child. If he were any blacker,
his classmates jeered, he'd be blue. Color was code for class.

(43:00):
The darkness of Thomas's skin, along with the Gulagchi dialect
he retained from Pinpoint, was a sign of his lowly
status in origin. For Thomas, these cruelties are a lifelong hurt.
People love to talk about conflicts inter racially, he told
the reporter Kin Foskett, who published a biography of Thomas
Judging Thomas in two thousand four. They never talk about
the conflicts intentions intro racially. From a young age, the

(43:22):
primary divide Thomas had to confront came from the privileges
associated with black wealth and light skin. You had the
black elite, the school teachers, the light skinned people, the dentist,
the doctors. Thomas has said, my grandfather was down at
the bottom. They would look down on him. Everybody tries
to gloss over that now, but it was the reality.
And you know that is Thomas's and again other folks,
you know, have different recollections, but this is what he

(43:44):
recalls of, like what he deals with as a kid.
I mean, yeah, at every turn, and get right that
there's he grew up having already feeling inferior as like
a black kid because the community he grew up in,
and then on top of that the colorism ship comes
into it as well and makes him even more his resentment.

(44:06):
It becomes like, oh my god, one of the things
every again, at every fucking level. Yeah, there's no he
has no he doesn't belong anywhere or and feels like
he has a bone to pick with everything. And you
see how that leads to the man he becomes in
this like this ideology of self reliance, which is a fantasy,

(44:29):
but like you get how someone who comes who grows
up feeling like they don't have a place anywhere, grows
up with this attitude towards self reliance. Now, of course,
the reality is we've talked about is that like he
benefited tremendously from a community that fought for his his rights,
even though it does seem like maybe that it didn't
feel that way to him, but like that was what
was going on. His grandfather was a part of that. Um,

(44:52):
it's very bleak that this is kind of a lot
of what he seems to take out of the period.
And again for of his like right wing white supporters,
he's the version of blackness that they wished every other
black person. Where's like it wasn't really an issue. Actually,
if there's racism, it's between black people exactly, and that

(45:14):
his narrative doesn't offend anyone or take notice of the
struggle that pretty much every other black person in the
country had to. Yeah, it's it's again a lot going
on here. Yeah, um yeah, everything is now five D
six D nine chest. Now after high school, Clarence enters

(45:36):
the seminary. His grandpa wanted him to be a Catholic priest.
He's really really approving of this mood move. It's probably
one of the few things that like Clarence gets like
some kind of like expression of pride from his grandfather
for doing because that's like, man, if you're a fucking
Catholic priest, you're that's like, at least for Catholics, about
the height of like respectability, you know. Man. Um, So

(46:01):
he gets admitted to a pre study program because being
a priest is kind of like being a doctor. Um
In nineteen sixty four, this is the year that co
would you rather have operate on you? Robert a priest?
Of course? Uh, because the doctors are just gonna put
that fucking Bill Gates chip in me. Miles. That's right,
that Bill Gates chip, you know, the one I'm talking about. Yeah,

(46:22):
I'm glading for over that pro science bullshit. Well, I
I don't know, you see, Miles, I don't believe in
the Bill Gates chip in the vaccine. I believe that
Bill Gates is putting chips inside of all of us
that allows him to control when we orgasm. And that's
why you can't go to the doctor. Stay away from
the doctor. Okay, I didn't think I didn't hear about this. Yep,
the Bill gateship. Look it up. Go to Bill Gates,

(46:45):
come ship chip or ship that's a different thing that
he does have a come ship. Go to reddit dot
com and type of Bill Gates, come chip or Bill
Gates come ship. Yeah, and you'll get hill ship is
very interesting. Yeah, there's a lot going on with the combship.
So anyway, we digress, We digress to our ads because Miles,

(47:08):
this podcast is sponsored by Bill Gates, Comeship and come chips.
Let Bill Gates be your one stop shop for semen
for the makers of Uh, We're back. So nineteen sixty

(47:29):
four the year he gets admitted to his pre study
program for for seminary again Semen Come Perfect. That's the
year also that Congress debates the Civil Rights Act. The
rector of the seminary, he goes to, William Coleman, is
a progressive uh, and he chose to offer Clarence and
one other black students scholarships in order to make sure

(47:50):
that there wouldn't just be white priests, right like, that's
it's kind of an affirmative action program, you know. Um
and he and his brother are the or he and
the this other student are the first black people admitted
to this particular seminary um. Prior to starting priest school,
Clarence had been awkward and uncomfortable around women. Uh friends
noted that he seemed to nurse a deep well of

(48:10):
resentment towards his mother, and becoming or learning doing the
pre study for becoming a Catholic priest did not help
with this part of his life. From strange justice quote,
if Thomas was unsophisticated about girl, certainly the nuns had
done little to change that. The only sex education the
youngsters at St. Benedict's and St. Pious X received, recalled Johnson,

(48:31):
was from their own parents, which Thomas lacked. After sixth grade,
boys and girls were separated in class, and Johnson is
one of the other students there recalls we were lectured
about sin all the time. The nuns view of women
at that time, according to Carol Delaney, who was taught
by them in Savannah, was that we should become wives
and mothers and submit completely to male authority. The husband
was the head of the wife, as Christ was the

(48:52):
head of the church. Women were associated with sin through Eve.
So again this is the good I mean, this is
now seminary. Yeah, so this is what he's learning Um,
you're the main character in a religious video game where
you have to fight the evil women, and but you're
in cell pretending your vole cell. Yeah. Um, And it's

(49:15):
there's a lot to be said by someone who is
better at an analyzing these things than me, of like
the similarities between his grandpa's attitude towards like, well, I'm
not going to raise a girl that's not worth it
to what these priests and nuns are teaching him about women, right,
I wouldn't. And I'm bad too, so hard I'm actually

(49:35):
get the I'm a serpent. Um, why am I here?
I gotta go? I'm bad. So according to him, he's
a pretty good student at seminary, but he is also
kind of becomes in this point constantly infuriated by the
racism he encounters from the other students, because again, it's

(49:56):
just him and one other black student. Everybody else is
white as hell. Um. He later recalled one night when
the lights were turned off and a classmate said, quote,
smile Clarence, so we can see you. Yeah. Um. He
was particularly bothered, he says, later, not by the fact
that people laughed, but by the fact that nobody came
to his defense. Right, he has like these friends and

(50:17):
they won't stick up for him. Um, which, yep, I
don't have any trouble believing that. Um. He reached a
snapping point in nineteen sixty eight during his first year
at the actual seminary, right because he has to do
preschool for priests prea come. Yeah, he's got a free
come before he can get to be So when he
when he joins that big come shot, um, he learns,

(50:38):
oh boy, no, that's not a good way to lead
into that line. Um. So, during his first year at
the actual seminary, Um, you know, it's sixty eight, which
is the year that Martin Luther King Jr. Is assassinated. Um.
And when that happens, he recalls a classmate says to him, good,
I hope the s ob dies, I think because there
was lag time in between him being shot. Yeah. Um

(51:02):
So Clarence says that racism is why he ultimately quits
the seminary. His grandfather is fucking furious at this, right, Like, obviously,
if you know anything about Myers Anderson, the fact that
you encountered racism in seminary is not an excuse to
not become a priest. To that guy, right, racism. Yeah,
let me tell you about racism. Um. Yeah, so this

(51:27):
doesn't go over well. His grandfather throws him out of
the house, and his memoir, Thomas would later write, He'd
never accepted any of my excuses for failure, and he
wasn't going to start. Now you've let me down, he said.
For years, the two remained estranged, and Myers Anderson refused
to attend his grandson's graduations or wedding. Oh is that

(51:49):
according to Thomas or that's according to someone That is
according to Thomas. I have not heard any counter to
that story though. Okay, but yeah, Now there's a couple
of things that are left at One of them is
that A big part of why Myers becomes angry is
that when his son, because he's going to go on
to become a lawyer, and he's going to justify it
because when he drops out of pre school, he's like, well,
I've decided I want to become a lawyer so that

(52:10):
I can help the community rights, that I can fight
for civil rights. And he never does this. So a
thing that is left out of this people will claim
who knew the family the time, is that Myers was
also angry that he doesn't do that part of it.
So right again, we all tell stories about our pasts.
Um so one of the nuns, who ever tell you

(52:31):
about that helicopter I was in the show? No, maybe
you can have Okay, so you're not gonna you're not
gonna give us the helicopter story right now. You're just
bringing that enough, just teasing that. I'm just saying I
was with a lot of brave men and women that day. Well,
I was in a helicopter once with with William Gates. Uh,
we're heading towards an island friend of ours, buddy named
Jeff owned, um little island just out in the anyway. Um,

(52:56):
So you don't think that's a good You don't think
that's a good bit. I've a terrible bit. You don't
think the hung out on Epstein's Island bit has legs.
I don't know why we've gotten into this territory. Why
are you doing this? It doesn't make you look very
good or cool. It's because the words semen is kind
of in seminary, and in seminary that's also kind of funny.

(53:19):
Then there's like are always is That's why I mean,
like this is not a good This is not a
good bit. No, this is, and I'm not a good
guest to have for serious things, you know, yeah, probably.
I don't know why you're going back to your middle
school humor for this episode, Robert. It's it's kind of
you know, it's not your thing, it is my thing, Sovie.

(53:39):
It's always been my thing, is my thing? Any more
times years ago? So it's the middle schooler. Yeah. So
I'm gonna teach everybody how many times I can say
come in a four part series about Clarence Thomas. It's
actually very appropriate given some weird things that he does
to all of his co workers. Any Way, we'll talk

(54:01):
about that later. Um So, one of the nuns who
likes him, right because he decides to quit, and apparently
one of his nuns is like, hey, if you're not
going to be a priest, why don't you go to
Holy Cross, which is a Catholic college in Wooster. I
think it's pronounced Wooster, Massachusetts. It is spelled Worcester. I'm
so angry Wooster fucking nonsense. Um So, this is a

(54:23):
white liberal college, which you might expect to have been
better than the seminary in Savannah. Georgia, Uh, it is
not UM. After nineteen sixty eight, it had decided to
actually try and recruit black students UM, and in order
to do that, they set up a scholarship fund named
after Martin Luther King UM. And Thomas receives one of
these scholarships to go to the school that he would

(54:44):
not have been able to afford otherwise, which is again
the second time that he's he's benefited from an affirmative
action program. To summarize his time in college, I want
to quote from the book The Enigma of Clarence Thomas
quote moving to a white institution in the North repeated
the trauma of moving to a white seminary in this out,
which Thomas described in an interview with The Crisis, the
magazine of the Double A c. P. Thus quote, So

(55:06):
you leave that all black environment and you go into
an environment where you are the only black, and you
are sitting where you live day in day out, and
attend to classes, and the only blacks you see are
the two women who work in the kitchen, and the
rest are white people. You go through some changes. Going
through those changes in the charged context of an integrating
Northern college campus surrounded by the tenants and texts of
black nationalism transformed him. It was a special time in

(55:29):
my life, he says. In later years, Thomas would downplay
the presence of black nationalism and his mature thinking, hotly
declaring I'm not a nationalist. Yet he never disavowed its
role in his development, going so far as to invoke
Malcolm X as an analog for precedent or precedent in
his biography. I have been angry enough in my life,
and there are some points where I'm sure my attitudes
approached black nationalism. I'm certain you could say the same

(55:51):
thing about Malcolm X. In college, Thomas's black friends love
to tease him about the fervor of his commitment and
the seriousness of his study. What woman would want this
man in anyway? He's into books and black power. But
even as a Supreme Court justice, looking back on his
youthful development, Thomas refused to mock the moment I was
an angry black man, he wrote in his memoir, The
more I read about the Black power movement, the more

(56:12):
I wanted to be a part of it. I used
to be an angry black man. Yeah you were. I mean,
that's one way to describe you really getting in touch
with the impression. Yeah, and he does have this brief
period of being not just in touch with oppression, but
like actually committed to doing something about it. Um. He
is like he is a combat boots and Black Panther

(56:35):
beret type activist. Are there pictures of him? Like then,
I don't know, I haven't found any. Um, that's like
the Oh my god, that's the most fucked up picture.
Like look, I probably yeah, boy. Um. And his his
first trip to Washington, d C. The very first time
he ever goes is a march on the Pentagon against
the Vietnam War. Um. The last protest he ever goes

(56:55):
to turns into a massive street brawl where two thousand
cops assault three thou and protesters demanding the release of
Black Panther co founder Bobby Seal and a prominent leading
Panther Erica Huggins. Um. Years later, Thomas would assist quote,
I was never a liberal. I was a radical and
and this seems to be true. He organizes a free

(57:16):
breakfast program for kids and Wooster patterned off from what
the Black Panthers had done. Um. He supports Communist Party
member Angela Davis in her flight from the US government,
he helps organize a black student union at his college,
uh and he also publishes a manifesto in that magazine
that is extremely black nationalist, with lines like quote, the

(57:36):
black man does not want or need the white woman.
The black man's history shows that the white woman is
the cause of his failure to be the true black man.
I know, right, Clarence Thomas, I don't think that's a
not gonna be a twist. A lot of people say,
coming um, so then like if it's like a cheesy

(57:58):
narrative like he has, who I wonder what the moment
is that he goes to the dark side, like if
he was a Jedi. I think, even like inverts, he
is always even when he is on this radical side,
he's fundamentally rooted in some pretty regressive things. As we're
going to cover, A big part of what he believes
in as a radical in this period is also the

(58:19):
subjugation of women by men, which a lot of left
wing sixties radicals. Number one, There's been a great deal
written and a lot by female panthers about sexism they
encountered from these guys who were otherwise heroes of the
black Panther movement, because again, there was a lot of
misogyny in the Panthers. And then there's guys like Stokey Carmichael,
right of Students for a Democratic Society, who had a

(58:42):
quote that was something like, what is the purpose of
like a woman in the sts? And he's like, well,
it's for us to fuck right, Like that was again,
it is still the sixties. There are still limits to
what we are capable of thinking about. Yeah, even for him,
he's like, man, like I'm still he's like white women

(59:03):
are the devil. Yeah. And it's also like you can
talk about misogyny within a lot of these left wing
circles and black nationalist circles in the same way that like, yeah, man,
if you went to fucking Woodstock about it around a
bunch of open minded hippies and like we're a man
and kissed another man, you would probably get beaten within
an inch of your life because like they're still pretty homophobic,

(59:24):
you know, like it was nineteen sixty nine. Yeah, optimistic miles.
Um So, I want to quote next from a write
up by The New Yorker. Quote, after the BSU learned
that a member was dating a white woman, the student convened,
The group convened, a mock trial, found him guilty, and

(59:45):
broke his afro comas punishment. Thomas took the role more seriously,
particularly after meeting Cathy Ambush, a black woman who whom
he would marry in nineteen seventy one and divorce in
nineteen eighty four. In a poem he called is You
Is or is You Ain't a Breath, he set out
the obligations of black men to black women. Even in
that milieu. Kevin Moritta and Michael Fletcher reported in their

(01:00:06):
two thousand seven biography Supreme Discomfort, Thomas's edgy race consciousness
stood out when he saw an interracial couple strolling on campus.
He'd loudly demand, do I see a black woman with
a white man? How could that be? Until six, when
Thomas met Virginia lamp who was white and who had
become his second wife, he opposed interracial marriage and sex.

(01:00:27):
What he's a real like there's a lot going on
in this guy. Wow? Yeah, Wow. It makes me uh,
it makes first of all, makes my brain hurt. I
mean I think about how if he really was like
trying to reverse like the loving decision. That's like him

(01:00:49):
being like, no, I really feel this way and I'm
going to live that, and I'm I'm regressing to this
very bizarre intersection of my beliefs, and you're like, what
where are you? You also see it's interesting because you
can see, Number one, there's a lot of consistency in
his belief towards women and what rights women should have,
and also and a certain flexibility when he wants something

(01:01:12):
right because he meets a white woman that he likes
and he's like, Okay, well now I'm not against interracial marriage, right,
not all white women. Yeah, exactly, wrote that rap song. Yeah,
I mean, and this is I guess this is all
This is number one, a very human thing. But also
it's like a very conservative thing. Like you think about
John McCain being like the only Republican being like, we
shouldn't torture people. Why, Well, because I got tortured, so

(01:01:36):
I know it's bad, all right, Why don't you brag
about it? Yeah? Um, I don't know. People are complicated
and generally hypocrites. Um, but you know who's not a hypocrite, Miles?
You when you plug your products or pot whatever. Miles
at the end of the episode say some things that

(01:01:57):
people can find you at. Oh, you can find me
just Miles of Gray on Twitter and Instagram. And if
you like, uh, you know, I do a daily show
about news and politics and stuff called Dailies. Like guys
even listening to that every day? Or if you like
trash reality TV because that's what I do to avoid
thinking about our crumbling earth. Check me out on four

(01:02:17):
twenty Day Fiance, where I get high and talk about
ninety day fiance. Check out the alexand Miles on the
Daily Sitgeist on Fiance. Play both at the same time
from different devices. Um they sync up in a way
that will reveal secrets to you about how to gain
special powers exactly. And you can even listen to I

(01:02:38):
have a third show because I can't stop talking, called
Miles and Jack Got Mad boost These where I'm just
talking about basketball, so a lot of you can get
your serious or your frivolous. Have you seen that Adam
Sandler basketball movie at Miles Hustle, Yeah, I thought I
thought it was pretty good. I thought it was pretty good. Somebody.
There's like a million scenes in that where, like, I know,

(01:02:59):
a famous basketball player just walked on scene and I'm
supposed to be like, oh my god, it's that guy.
But I can't tell if they're actors are not, because
to me, it's just like, Wow, everyone's very tall in
this movie except James Goldstein is even has a cameo.
I don't know who that is. That's how like, there's
these like deep cut basketball people in it. I didn't

(01:03:22):
realize the Spanish guy who's the second main character is
an actual basketballer, a basketball's man exactly, thank you. Speaking
of balls, the episodes over we did It Guys, boom