Part Two: A Terrible Story About The Internet

Part Two with guest, Margaret Killjoy.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
H h, well I did it. That was yeah, please absolutely,
Chris make it horny, like like really horny. Well, this

(00:24):
is Behind the Bastards podcast that is introduced the way
I just introduced it. What are you going to do
about it? Find another show. I'm gonna listen to someone else. No,
you're not. You're stuck here. You're stuck here with me,
with me and with Margaret Kiljoy. Margaret, welcome to the show. Hello.
How are you doing, Margaret? I'm doing great. Nothing bad

(00:45):
or sad as happened, and I'm sure that we're gonna
be talking about sunny sunshine roses. Yeah. I like thinking
about good things. You know, did a lot that makes
me angry in the world, Like, for example, Hollywood didn't
really do anything good with didn't do enough good with
Bruce Campbell when he was like young and super hot.

(01:07):
What's what's up with that? How could you not? I
just someone wants to talk about this on Twitter and
they're right, like, how was he not in more stuff
when he was like, you know, army of darkness young? Like,
how do you not make maximum use of that guy?
It's unbelievably infuriating. Yeah, his jaw is just left incredible
on Yeah, you could bludgeon people to death with that
jaw and they'd be happy about it. And you can

(01:29):
almost kill him in every movie. Sam Raimi nearly murdered
that man like thirty times, and Bruce just kept coming
back for more, Like what a hero? Anyway a hero?
I feel like we really lost out on some great
Bruce Campbell movies, like why not just kidd no no,
But just like when he was like super young, right,

(01:51):
he's been great. He's he's aged into a wonderful career.
Is like the old guy kind of aging action hero
type character. He does that in a lot of that
and burn notice and in the in the Ash Versus
the Evil Dead show, Like he's had a wonderful career.
I'm sure he's very happy. But like young Bruce Campbell,
think about like why not why not try him as

(02:12):
a superman, Like just throw it in there, just see
what we get, you know, just cast Bruce Campbell is
Superman and let it happen um and have Sam Raimie directed,
Like my god, can you imagine that movie? That would
have been nuts. I'm trying to delay us getting back
to a very uncomfortable series of conversations. Yeah, because it's

(02:35):
about to get a lot worse. Um. Thanks, thanks everyone
for tuning into this episode where there's absolutely like no no,
no joy, Like we can't, we don't even get like
the moment of laughing at at Hitler being given fucking
cocaine by his doctor who's angry at the other doctor
for giving him herold, like, those are the good moments,

(02:58):
Those are the ones that made this show with it.
None of those in this story. So yeah, when we
last left off Christine, she had provided four chan with
evidence of that she was not you know that she
was straight by giving hand drawn pornography of one of
her few real life friends, which is bad bad call, um,

(03:20):
generally bad call. Not generally a bad call, always a
bad call. Don't what if it had worked, though? What
if the friend had been like, it's true, I've been
thinking about you this whole time. That's not a zero
percent chance, but it's not a betting chance. Like someone
out there there kink would be realizing that their friend
had had, without asking for their consent, written pornography about

(03:42):
them and handed it to fortune. That person exists, right,
but yeah enough, yeah, um, but that person is also
on four chan. Right, so there is a there is
a um. Yeah. Anyway, so this goes bad and it
also kind of super charges this growing fandom. It is

(04:02):
kind of a fandom. I think you have to look
at it that way. Um. Around Christian like people realize
not only does this person respond when you poke them,
which is like the number one thing that lets a
bully no, it's time to keep on bullying, um, but
that you can get incredible content out of like lying

(04:22):
about them on the internet and waiting for them to
correct you in ways that make their entire life worse. Um.
So you know she has she has basically proven herself
to be like a comedy pinada for these people, right,
That's that is how they're looking at it. Um. So yeah,
um it's not great. This all sets off a three

(04:44):
year period of near constant baiting by trolls, most of
whom would pretend to be women um interested in dating Christine. Um,
so they would they would reach out to her and
like they would cat fish her with like photos and
messages with the goal of getting her to like reveal
shameful things to them. And again, this is a thing
that happens a lot to all sorts of people. Now,
this didn't really happen much like two eight, two nine.

(05:07):
This is not as nearly as common as it would be. Um,
and especially it was not a thing that people did
to create content for huge anonymous masses of Internet users.
Like this is really where that begins. Yeah, one of
the first of these trolls convinced convinced Christine to mail
them her beloved sonnet U medallion, this thing that she's

(05:29):
like made, that she wears everywhere. That's like her most
valued possession in the world. So this person pretends to
be a girl who's interested in her and like asks
for the medallion is like a token of love. And
then when they get it, they post a video of
themselves smashing it and lighting it on fire. Um cool, Yeah, good,
we we really made a good thing with the Internet.

(05:50):
You think back to like people saying like, oh, this
is when people are connected. It's going to make some
of the evils of the twentieth centre impossible to repeat. No,
it's it's just gonna mean that like when the evils
of the twentieth century are repeated, we like throw a
fucking uh whatever um trance wave or whatever filter on

(06:15):
it and stick like a meme joke on it. We
sell t shirts of it and ship like I might
as well. Yeah, it's frustrating. Um. So she eventually makes
another medallion. Um. And she in due time gets cat
fished by another and on who this time convinces her
to shove it up her ass um and like tape

(06:37):
it and stuff. Um. On another occasion, she gets tricked
into driving across the state for an orgy that never happens. Um.
And these are all like some of these are the
same people over and over again. These are a lot
of different people. Um. Yeah. Yeah. So the worst of
her cat fishers, I think, the person who like breaks
her medallion and lights on the fire and ship goes
by the name of Blue Spike. Um. And this person

(07:00):
who is like carrying out what I think we can
say is like profoundly almost psychotically abusive capers is thirteen
years old. Oh fuck yeah yeah yeah that's scance. Um.
Oh god. And because Christian is like what six or something,

(07:20):
she's in her like mid twenties at this point. Yeah. Yeah. Well,
And I guess one of the things that this kind
of reveals is that the way the Internet enables abuse
means that if you're if you're the kind of person
who is incapable of disengaging in the way that Christine is.
High school never ends, middle school never ends, you know whatever,

(07:43):
that's good Like, so no one is so you have
there's no one's that I mean, everyone's at fault, No
one's yea, every everyone's like everyone's bad. Also everyone has
something that means like, well, this thirteen year old can't
really know the full limp locations of what they're doing, right,
and Christine is awful, but also can't really fully know

(08:07):
the full ramifications of the decisions they're making. It's just
this horrible engine that has been built kind of by
accident that is now like churning these people towards calamity,
which is the ghost machine. Oh my god, because the
thirteen year old could have been because like when I

(08:28):
when I think about my friends, who were you know,
I mean doing some version of this stuff in the
nineties on various directions, like just the Internet didn't exist
in the same way that thirteen year old could have
also been. Chris Chan Yeah, I'm like, wow, Engine of
South yep. Okay, yep. So they reveal the fact that

(08:50):
they're a thirteen year old to Chris after having cat
fished Chris for months during one of the most horrific
moments in in Christian history, which is called Chris Tery,
which is legitimately funny. That's legitimately funny. Yeah. Um, but
this moment is I'm just gonna play the audio of

(09:11):
of Blue Spike, this fucking teenager revealing this to Christian um,
because in the voice of this kid is something important.
Do you really want to know? Yeah? My chance? Not
right now? Come on, please chance, Please, Julia. I've just
been to a whole lot mess for you, just like

(09:34):
what happened. I'll say that in private, but let me
what you say first from your heart. It's so hard
to say you love me, don't you? I do, But
there's something else I need to say. I just don't.
I just don't know how to do this. I don't
know how to tell you this. Travisy nuts Cluth, He's

(09:56):
not that there's like a breakdown, Yeah, Chris, Yeah, I
came back. Now when do what happened there? But this
is the fans for like five minutes and then I'll
tell you please, A'm ready to tell you, okay, this

(10:22):
whole time, Chris You've been having sex for a thirteen
year old boy? You sick? Fuck? What? Yeah? Yeah? So
that's that's enough. In that God, that kid's voice and
like the glee in it, that's that's the voice of

(10:45):
the soul of the internet. Like that is that is
the disembodied soul of digital culture speaking in that momentum.
That's rough. I used to do the opposite of this
when I was a teenager, Like my friends hung out
at IRC and we would catfish we have catfish petals

(11:09):
and then like get them be like, oh yeah, we're
gonna like phone sex you and get them to call
us and trace their number and reveal them to their workplaces. Yeah,
And obviously I feel okay about that. That's fine. Yeah,
but this is very different because like Christine doesn't think

(11:29):
she's hanging out obviously does not is not aware that
this is a thirteen year old like and it's that
that kind of and this is occurring the reason there's
other voices. This is doing like a fan called kind
of like a prototype of like what twitch streamers and
stuff do. Now almost we're like you have a famous
person and like people are coming in and like chatting
with them and stuff. Like, so this is this is

(11:49):
a thing that is occurring where he's talking to this
person he thinks is like his online girlfriend in front
of a bunch of fans that she thinks are like
real fans of hers aren't. But no, does she have
any real fa she does? It gets It's weird. There's
definitely people who like, there's after her that that that

(12:13):
that is that would be a funny thing to start.
That's a good light to teach kids. Um, you're here,
it here first, its name. That's pretty bleak, right And
if that had been the absolute height of how fucked
up things had gotten, this would be a really sad story. Um.
But this happened two thousand nine. Um, and every harassment

(12:35):
of Christine goes on right up to this day. Um.
In her father died, leaving her and her mother in
an increasing increasingly desperate financial states. Into this fourteen they're
fucking house burnt down along with most of their possessions. Um.
This is probably due to the fact that Christine's mom
is a hoarder. You know, there was a lot of
bad decisions made about how to keep the house are

(12:57):
e fire safety. Um, these are not her mom, especially
after their Dad's not a very functional person, you know, um,
and Christine is not a very functional person, and so
like things just get out of hand in they're like,
this is one of those things. I'm not a cps
is probably does more harm than good in my opinion,
but like somebody it should have been in any any

(13:18):
decent society, some responsible person should have stepped in and
been like, this can't continue without outside intervention. Someone needs
to take care of you both, right, you're not capable
of doing that, right, Like not I'm not talking about institutionalization,
but like just a nice person who could like sit

(13:38):
down with him and be like, hey, you can't keep
all these newspapers stacked up next to this old coffee
machine that that sparks all the time or whatever. I
don't know what costs the fire, but like that's one
of the things that like the people who make fun
of Christine kind of don't always some of them do,
but don't always take into account that, like this is
a person who's in like a danger is an unhealthy

(14:00):
living environment for reasons outside of like the weird ship
they're doing on the internet. Right, it's pretty pretty she's
still at home. She hasn't moved out. She's not really
capable of living indentantly. Um, I think she would have
been at some point. I don't think she was inherently
like incapable, but like the person that she becomes in

(14:21):
part due to this, because like this fandom and stuff like,
it's this constant positive reinforcement along with negative reinforcement. So
she's both getting made fun of, but she's also people
are giving her money, people are like praising her work.
This like community springs up around her, and she believes
that she's like becoming a famous content creator, which means
there's not it to the extent that she ever had

(14:42):
any kind of positive pressure to change in a in
a direction that would lead to her being able to
like take care of herself more effectively. That goes away
because of all this, like it's both positive and negative attention.
That's all bad for her. Yeah, yeah, got that thirteen
year olds a grown ass person. That thirteen year old

(15:04):
was a grown ass person. Right now, Uh, maybe listening
to this show, Maybe listening to this show maybe feels
horrible about it. I really don't know much about what
happens to Blue Spike afterwards. I would hope they've become
a better person. Most people I wouldn't put money on it.
I would because they were Internet right. Yeah. I I

(15:26):
caught window someone from my high school who did something
real bad to me, like like ten or fifteen years later,
bragging about it on Facebook, like, remember that was really
funny when we did this one horrible, life altering scarring thing. Yeah. Yeah,
I get that kind of feeling like that, that there's
so much cruelty in that voice. Yeah, and maybe I'm wrong, maybe,

(15:50):
and maybe if you're listening, you should reach out and
pretend like you're better and then be really horrible to Wait, No,
don't do that. You should do that if you're willing
to meet us in a secluded would without leaving any
information about where you're headed. Um uh so yeah, um.
All this financial desperation like one of the ways in

(16:11):
which Christine solves it as she starts taking commissions from fans,
And a lot of these are like ironic people making
fun of her or trying to get her to illustrate
like horrific things, scenes of like violence, and I think
there's some sexual abuse and stuff in there. You know,
it's four chance stuff, right, can your mind can put
the rest together. Um, but a decent amount of it
is genuine and and this is the thing that's I
think it is also toxic for the reasons I've outlined,

(16:33):
But a lot of people I think increasingly appreciate her
and kind of the same way people do Edwood, if
that makes sense, where it's like, this is a good artwork.
These aren't good comics, but there's so much heart in
them in such a specific and unique way that people
gain a sort of enjoyment from it that's not entirely

(16:55):
based in it's not really based in mockery, even though
it's like laughing. They're not consuming her the way she
intended for it to be. But there are people who
do just like are fascinated in a way that's not
just about being mean. Um, you know how art works? No,
I mean yeah, like well, I ironic engagement often leads

(17:15):
to earnest engagement, because sometimes irony is just a defense
mechanism of like something that you actually enjoy, you know. Yeah,
So the same way that like ironic Nazis you're like,
now you're just a Nazi, You're you actually just enjoy
it and you cloak it in a shield of irony,
you know, yeah, yeah, you can do that in reverse too.
I guess, so that's happening too. And again I think

(17:36):
it's part of like I'm sure Christine loves that dimension
of it. I also, again, I think it's kind of
like helping to keep her from ever growing as a
person in ways that could I'm talking about growing out
of like liking weird sonic art or making comics, but
like growing out of being unable to take care of
herself in basic human ways. Um, yeah, not knowing how

(17:58):
to react and yeah, not some of these would conflict
not only had like yeah, like I I don't think
she was inherently incapable of growing in those ways, but
I think becoming the center of this circus kind of
locked her into continuing to play these roles in the
way that like when you get rich and famous at
age eighteen for something, a lot of times you never
grow up. We've seen this a bunch. There's that there's

(18:22):
that great line and um Bow Jack Horsemen where they
make the I figet which characters but says that like
whatever age you get rich at, you never like that's
the age you stop developing as a human being. And
I think you can make a similar case to whatever
age you get like super internet famous at you just
get like locked into that forever. Um, oh my god.

(18:44):
That's yep. Especially works really well since like the whole
Vampires class analysis ms kind of ghosts in the machine.
Yeah yeah, yeah. So by the mid ots, most of
the early places like something Awful where people had gathered
to gawk at Christian life and her artwork had moved on, right,
like something Awful, It is not really the center of

(19:05):
of what actually grows into the problematic part of this
is just kind of like where people start gawking. Um,
A lot of people like I was someone who paid
a tip, Like I've been following Christian stories since like
two thousand and six or seven, you know. Um, so
when I was like literally a child myself, I first
became aware of this person. Um, and most of the

(19:26):
folks who were kind of like in the were just
kind of like fascinated with her eventually stopped tuning in,
especially once the abuse started. When four chan gets involved,
a lot of people who had initially been interested to like, well,
this is really fucked up. Now you're not just gawking
at like some weird outsider art. You're like abusing a person. Um,
and there's this kind of growing awareness that something deeply

(19:47):
fucked up is happening. In two fourteen, in a new
forum called Kiwi Farms is created for the most dedicated
trolls and observers of Christian. This is where Kiwi karms
Farms comes from, is specifically to follow and mock Christian,
so they escalate things even beyond what four chan had done.
Some forum members took photos of the Chandler's homes from

(20:08):
the street. At one point, Christian and her mother assaulted
the owner of a gaming store with a car because
Christian had been banned from the gaming store and so like,
she and her mom attacked this person, which is again
not great people. Like not great people. Um. When both
had their court date, people from Kiwi Farms are there
to document it for the lowells. Like there's like people

(20:31):
actually show up inmport to watch this. Yeah. We should
trick them into becoming war correspondence. Yeah, get them to
like troll some specific Russian conscript by joining a territorial
defense battalion. Yeah, or just troll the concept of like
an s U twenty nine by getting bombed or something.

(20:55):
I don't know. Um, so I'm gonna read a quote
from a write up in New York Magazine. Here. Over
the eight years, they've contacted Chandler, her pastor, and her parents,
posing as journalists, former classmates, psychiatrists, potential business partners, and others,
and the hopes that these ruses yield more confidential info. Twice,
female Kiwi farmers arranged real life dates with Chandler. Both
of them used fake names and wore wires to record

(21:17):
these outings. Packages and letters are routinely sent to Chandler's residents,
many of which contain obscene materials designed to unsettle the recipients.
In one instance, someone sent prostitutes to visit Chandler's house,
then called the family to taunt them about it. Oh
my god, so we're we're well passed, just like, oh

(21:38):
look at this weird stuff. You know. Yeah, if every
day you've ever been on was a joke at your expense. Yeah,
And this is happening right around the same time gamer
Gate is and everyone else, and this is the kind
of thing like when gamer get hit everyone around me.
I remember being so surprised at what was happening, And

(21:59):
even before Kiwi Farms, I had been seeing versions of
that stuff happened to fucking Christian. I think there were
few people like that who were like, oh, ship, this
has gone everywhere now, like this is broken containment. You know,
this is not just like how the Internet deals with
their special person that they're all obsessed with. This is
like now with a set of tactics that are used
on a wide variety of people, but of course like

(22:21):
the most even then, like, considering how fucked up gamer
Gate is, I think Christian deals with more fucked up
and targeted harassment than any of the gamer Gate victims.
Not to minimize it, but like, right, this is some
This is so comprehensive. And and again at the point
at which gamer Gate starts, this has been going on
almost a decade, right well, and it's like most of

(22:43):
the gamer Gate people have probably had get to have
real friends in their life instead of just ironic friends
who are trolling them. Yeah. I hope at least for
the gamer Gate people, you know, for the gamer Gate victims.
Not I don't care what happens to them because of
those people, but this is like, this is her entire
adult life is dealing with this pretty much. Yeah, I

(23:04):
can't even know well of co what. Yeah, it's impossible
to comprehend what that would do to you. Yeah, I
mean I I've talked to and I've had the experience
of like, you know, the kind of high school experience
of being like, oh, I've been invited to a party.
I bet it's just to make fun of me, right, Yes,
you know and like and and and that plays a number.

(23:26):
You know that that messes with your sense of self
twenty years later, right, But that was like once, you know,
or like or over the period of a year or
two or something, you know, just the idea that someone's
entire life from middle school on. It's a hell. It's
like literally a Dante's Inferno. I've never read Dante's Inferno,

(23:47):
but let's pretend like I have. Yeah, it's mostly about
a dude wanting to suck a chick um, but then
she dies, and so he makes fun of the governor
of Venice a lot something like that. If I'm remembering
my Dante rights, it's really horny and it's petty grievances.
It's actually not from Christian has put it together like that.

(24:11):
How many of the greatest pieces of art and history
where someone who just like I live in a private
world and I'm write about it. Yeah, I'm angry this
relationship didn't work out, and I have specific petty grievances
about local elected officials. Now I'm going to create one
of the most infamous works of art in the history
of human learning. It's pretty it's pretty funny, it's pretty dope. Yeah, alright,

(24:37):
you know what else he's doe products and services that
people can spend money at. Oh my god, there's nothing
as good as a product and a service. Yeah, that
wasn't my best transition. I'll figure it out for the
next one. All in sight can be so good. Violence

(24:57):
against a him or something. I don't know, we'll figure
it out. Here's ads. We're back. You know. I'm thinking
about like getting bullied. And some of the worst ship
I ever had to deal with was like from one
of my teachers. We had this fucking in Texas, you

(25:19):
have to take Texas history class, right, which because it's
always a nation, so that horseshit, like always horseshit. In
my experience, it was nothing but nonsense. Um, and they
really gloss over the slavery stuff, by the way, especially
since my Texas history teacher was also the I think
it was the volleyball coach. It might have been tennis.
It's been a long time at this point, but he

(25:39):
was a coach, right, He was one of these, like
like more, most of my history teachers were mainly coaches
who then they got stuck teaching history. And I would, like,
you know, I played D and D and ship as
a kid, and so I would like take my D
and D books with me around and like read them
in between classes and stuff when I had free time.
And this fucking day he like see it. I'm not

(26:00):
like reading it in class. It's just like below my
stack of books, and he like grabs it and he
walks to the front of the class and he starts
like reading from it and making me explain things and
laughing at me in front of the class. I know,
I mean, I I it's entirely possible. I said some
things that would have gotten me arrested if my friends
hadn't been such good friends, because I definitely like said

(26:21):
some column biny shit about that, dude, you know, yeah,
because when you're a teenager and you don't know how
to deal with conflict. Yeah, fucking a god, damn, I
fucking hate uh, Texas schools. My my gym teacher made
fun of my duck boots in front of the entire class. Jesus,

(26:44):
and I never wore duck boots again. I still haven't
worn duck boots again. They're really they're great boots. But
I'm sure you look excellent duck boots. Yeah, I need
a good pair it with a nice heal on it. Man, anyway,
we need to like No, that's that's legally excitement. Um So, Christine,
at no point in the story has been a particularly

(27:05):
healthy person. Obviously, you know, even before the Internet really
got involved, she expressed homophobia and racism. But years upon
years of ceaseless, demented harassment did not help matters. Over
the years, a group of trolls started working in a
concerted fashion to convince Christian, who always had a tenuous
grip on reality, that other dimensions existed, and that her
cartoon characters and cartoon girlfriends and cartoon child that she

(27:29):
had all created for this cartoon series she's been drawing
for years were real somewhere in the universe. Now there's
a whole timeline you can read online in painful detail
if you want to. Um, I want to quote now
from a section from Chris Chan's absolutely Voluminous Dedicated WICKI
hosted on Sanna Chew dot com for some reference as
to the scale of the obsession we're dealing with here.

(27:50):
Now the Quickie, you know, the wiki dedicated to the
c w C. That's that's her initials currently has two thousand,
one ninety seven articles. The okay, it's out of it's mind.
How have I not heard of the most famous person
in history? It's it's it's you had to Yeah, we'll
get to that quote. In September two seventeen, Joshua Wise

(28:13):
contacted Christine to commission artwork with the two win contact
why Is decided to see for himself Christine's gallibility. In
late October two seventeen, he again contacted Christine, posing as
John Yamata. As Yamada Why Is claimed to be a
soldier from Game Industry, a location set in the franchise
Hyperdimension Neptunia, and inquired if Christine still had her old

(28:33):
Sega Dreamcast console, telling her it contained a partial portal
into quick Fill, which is like the fake version of Charlotte'
Fille She's created for her comics. Why Is used the
lore from Neptunia to play into Christine's existing preconceptions about
reality and her belief that fictional worlds exist in alternate dimensions,
giving her validation over those beliefs, which would both prime
Christine for following under Wyse's spell and eventually encourage her

(28:55):
to retreat further into his fantasy world to cope with
her real world problems. So this snowballs into a group
of which is like, this is like mental abuse, so
of really like kind of hard to fathom scale. It's
snowballs into a group of trolls, convincing Christian that they
could destroy Quickville, her fantasy world, which is basically the

(29:16):
only thing good going on in her life. Um, So
they put the fantasy city that she's created up for ransom,
and they start making her do a variety of horrible
things to stop it from being destroyed. They had her
confess to being a pedophile and confessed to raping her
own mother. Then they threatened to release those confessions publicly
if she didn't record herself shooting on the floor and

(29:36):
punching herself in the face until she cried. At one point,
they asked her to punch her mother, which she did.
Oh my, so black Mirror is just a pale imitation
Black Marrying got shipped on the stuff people have been
doing to Christian for like fifteen something years. Um. So

(29:57):
these trolls who are known kind of in the Chris
Chan uh fandom. I don't know what you want to
call it, but these trolls are referred to as the
Idea guys, and they eventually blackmail Chris Chan out of
a bunch of money, like six thousand dollars. I'm sure
she has a lot of yeah, which she Yeah, this
is like, I think money that her and her mom

(30:18):
need to exist. Um. This abuse is actually so horrific
that it pisces off people on Kiwi Farms who think
this is going too far and is no longer funny.
So a group of these again pretty psychopathic folks on
Kiwi Farms start dedicating themselves to dismantling these plots and
even trying to force some of the Idea guys to
face legal action. Um. The leader of this group, Null

(30:42):
is also the main mod on Kiwi farms. I think
he might have found it. I'm not as up on
that stuff, and he's like was big into gamer Gate.
He's extremely anti Semitic. He believes in like white genocide theories.
He uses the in word a bunch. He's like a
very gross dude. And the fact that this guy and
people like him are horrified enough by the abuse level
that has grown that they start to defend. Christine says

(31:04):
something significant about how bad things have gotten that like
this, this this motherfucker's like, okay, well that people are going
too far. Um, it's it's it's it's pretty bleak. Now.
I don't know how much detail to get into. We
could talk for tens of hours about this story, and
some people have, which is part of what I find

(31:26):
so unsettling. Coverance of Chris Chan ranges from the obviously hateful.
The rite up of her life on Encyclopedia Dramatica is
basically just non slot stop slurs focused around the fact
that she's now transgender. Um. She comes out in two thousands, seventeen, UM.
So this is like, if you've been following the Christian
story most of the time this has been going on,
that has not been like a factor in it. That's
a fairly recent thing for her, um. But not all

(31:50):
of it is like super hateful. The Chris Chan wiki
is weirdly neutral. Um, I think they still miss gender her.
But it's otherwise written basically like a history wold document
Like it's not full of like insults and stuff. Um,
there's some editorializing and judgment, but it's pretty straightforward. And
then there are the documentaries. You can find numerous YouTube

(32:10):
videos about Christian's life, but by far the most detailed
is Christian A Comprehensive History, which is currently at part
fifty nine. At present, there are more than twenty hours
of content. Now I want to play you the opening
to the most recent of it's these videos, which to
its credit, does not miss gender her. These are not
like disrespectful or mean, They're just profoundly unsettling in their detail.

(32:35):
What made her this way? What is the attraction? What
keeps us fascinated? This is the story of Christian Ah.

(33:02):
On October sixteen, Christine published the final pages of Sana
Chu issue twelve, marking its completion. The comic begins with
episodes five to Be or Not a tom Girl told
from the perspective of Sanachus, then son Robert sana Cheu.
So that's like just analytical, almost like scientific in its

(33:29):
level of dissection. They cover every moment of her life.
And again it's almost there's a degree to which is
almost more unsettling than the hateful stuff, like that you're
not gonna find anything cool in there. They are careful
once she transitions, because this starts, you know, before that point,
but once she does, they're very careful about gendering her properly. Um,
it's not mean, it's just detailed to an extent that

(33:52):
I don't know anyone else's life has ever been documented. Um.
And I mean it's interesting because it's like if says
that in the opening, it's like, well, what makes us
so obsessed? It was like, that's the people who have
a problem here. Like I mean, Christian has a problem,
she's living in hell, but like, but these people, they

(34:14):
have a problem. Yeah, this is this is a problem. Right.
If a friend were to be like, so I finished
our twenty of my documentary on this person whose most
notable attribute is that they make kind of off putting comics,
I would be like, so, we gotta get you help, right, Like,
we gotta get you out of this, Like whatever you're doing,
you're not in a good place, Like do you need

(34:35):
to talk? Um, it's pretty pretty good stuff. Um, but
it is. It is kind of worth noting that the
obsession is not like entirely hateful. Um yeah, it's weird. Well,
and it also that piece also shows that she's come
around on LGBT issues. Yes, she's she's not come around.

(34:59):
I think maybe some I I can't there's a lot
of Chris Terry to get into. I could not tell
you the extent to which she has come around on race.
I certainly hope so, but I'm not aware of that happening. Um. Yeah. Uh.
And there's like weird little fractures within these communities, like
an encyclopedia dramatic at the people who document her like

(35:20):
mock and deride the people who are like sending her
money and making documentaries about her and like defending her
and stuff. Um. So there's even like weird little fractures
in this fan community. Um. And it's weird because like
a lot of the folks, even with these kind of
impartial documentaries, the people who follow them are a lot
of the trolls who torment her. So it's all this

(35:40):
like weird riberose of the Internet being a mistake. Um. Obviously,
you know at this point, Kiwi Farms has largely moved
on from Christian She's still a topic of discussion and
from time to time. But um and in fact, she's
like the kind of the first loll cow, you know,
the first person they treat this way, Um, but they
have a bunch of other They spend a lot more

(36:00):
of their time focusing on other folks. I think at
this point, Um, she's kind of beneath interest for a
lot of them, they're kind of bored of it. U
four chan is also more or less over her. But
the years of obsession in the different pranks and ons
played on her are part of the site's DNA. Now,
in fact, the harassment of Christine Chandler has been going
on for so long that it has it has had

(36:22):
an influence on the DNA of the entire modern Internet.
Like there is ship that like Russian troll farms were
doing that was pioneered in the campaigns of harassment against
this person. Um and yeah, it's it's this kind of
architecture of harassment that is such a mainstay of online discourse,
was built in large part to funk with this one person.

(36:44):
And that brings me to the end of the story
for now. This well, uh, late in um a user
on Kiwi Farms posted a phone call with Chris Chan.
The audio is a woman clearly a member of Kiwi
Farms rolling Chandler talking to her about Chris Chan's desire
for an incestuous relationship with her mother and if you remember,

(37:07):
they as a threat got her to like claimed and yeah, exactly, um.
Business Insider notes that quote. In August two sixteen, Chandler
wrote a Facebook status defending a mother and son in
Mexico who reportedly said they were in love, which The
Daily Mail reported at the time. Although incest is quite
a controversial topic, these are circuit There are circumstances where

(37:27):
there would not be so much harm as one may think, feel,
or believe. She said, unless the sex act was abusive, hurtful,
or would result in an unwanted birth of a physical
or mental challenge child, I would not judge or persecute
the parent and child. Chandler wrote that she herself had
dreams of having sex with her mother, although she never
acted on them, and like, who knows the degree to
which this is true? Um, because she also just says

(37:50):
ship for reactions, But like, she's also getting pretty detailed
in this. In this call with this Kiwi Farms member
Chris chan states that the fan fix these like things
she said to her fans on the internet about wanting
to have a relationship with her mom, had become a reality. Now.
I am not going to play any graphic details from
this call in which Christine discusses molesting her very elderly mother. Um,

(38:12):
but I will play a segment where the person calling
her explains her interest in Christery because it provides some
insight into how these people keep tricking christine relationship. But
I just thought, because I'm not huge on Christie and
you know whatever, I just thought that the hostntry franchise
is really interesting. And that's how I got into you

(38:34):
when I was younger, Right, but I had I hadn't
had any idea that Barbara was that Barbara and you
had that sort of relationship. I never got any of
those vibes. But um, how did you approach her? I'm
not sure, but care and cautious. It was a time,
it was a time prost So I just gave her

(38:57):
comfort to talk with her justly out slow and today
and then I and I heard her positively like her
make the first move she want, so she did really
she made the first move. You hear that excitement in
her voice when she gets Chris to admit to that, Like, yep,

(39:17):
you get what's she's doing here, right, the degree to
which she is fishing for responses. Um, And that's pretty clear.
I think if you listen to the whole tape, it's
pretty clear. Um. So it goes on. The audio was
subsequently shared by null of Kiwi Farms, and in short
order it goes viral on Reddit. Now that audio contains

(39:37):
claims by Chandler again that she's molested her seventy year
old mother. I have no idea whether or not Christine
actually did anything with her mom. It is certainly not impossible, right, Um.
But there's again numerous documented instances of Christian being convinced
or led to lying about things, or even fantasizing about
things that never happened as if they had happened, because again,
she's been convinced that like all these sort of fan

(40:00):
to sees of hers are real by like people who
often pretend to be character she's created, breaking through some
dimensional barrier and then like catfishing her like she doesn't
have a great grasp on what is actually happening in
physical reality anymore, um her lawyer, because this hall winds
up being a big court case. Her lawyer seems to

(40:21):
be making this claim, saying quote, Miss chandlers frequent and
sometimes over the top presence on the Internet is partly
a product of mental health issues causing misguided attention seeking
and often provocative engagement with others. Um. So, within hours
of this call going viral on Reddit, Chris Chan starts
to trend on Twitter. Leaked text messages begin to go
viral at around the same time. Um And in response

(40:43):
to some of these Chandler tweets, quote, there is drama
in the air today, Each and every one of you
are all encouraged to withdraw from any and all dramas, gossip,
rumors and whatever else will and already has approached your
way today. So she's trying to like clamp down on
some of the stuff. It doesn't work. She gets arrested
on August one on suspicion of incest, which is a

(41:04):
fifth degree felony in Virginia. Additional charges are noted to
be pending. Her arrest was, of course live streamed by
a right wing troll named Ethan Ralph in the video,
Chandler was heard telling Ralph everything is going to be
all right. The Green County Sheriff's Office later states that
Chandler was being charged due to allegations of sex crimes
against a family member. As you might expect from Central

(41:26):
Virginia law enforcement, the fact that chris Chan was trans
immediately becomes an issue. She was initially listed as female
in the jails online system, but her gender was changed
to mail a day or so later. The jail gave
no reason for the change, and hooray, hooray, what's the
that's the you know, most of the time when you

(41:46):
think about like um uh, people who are in hell
because of the way that their um nerdive urgence is
treated by society, usually think about psychiatric institutes, right, and
you think about how like M. P. Pull in psychiatric institutes,
the you know, we'll put people in hell mentally. It's
the democratization of that. It's the decentralization of you no

(42:10):
longer need an institute to um completely ruin a nerd
of viurgent person's life. Everyone can have yeah, part of them.
We have essentially create allowed random thirteen year old kids
in forums to craft little mental asylums that we they

(42:31):
can then trick people into being in or force them
into being in and locked them into using the internet. Cool, good, good,
good thing we've built. Yeah, it's it's just Um, this
is but this is like why I think people have

(42:52):
to look at this and what has happened, because I
don't think people often see that like that is what's
going on online, Like this is a seedy underbelly. And
from this kind of this gross little under billy that
doesn't get much attention, the tactics that are pioneered here

(43:12):
filter up and do get used by institutions and organizations
on a grander scale to carry out targeted harassment for
often political purposes. Um. And that's that's a story worth telling.
And you know what other stories worth telling? Margaret? What's that?
The story of how has an island off the coast
of Indonesia where you, assuming you have several hundred thousand

(43:34):
dollars to spend um, and your friends, assuming they are
equally financially well off, can hunt children for sport and
for food. You know, I'm I'm vegan. Do they have
options where they provide after I hunt the child, where
they provide other other they actually have a Tempe version
of of child brisket that that's quite actually quite good.

(43:57):
Often when I'm there, I sometimes prefer the Tempe you know,
not bad. You know, you can get and and and
they'll they'll they'll mount your trophy while you eat, so
you know, it's really great. Everything is good in the world.
This bit is getting old. I feel good about old Sophie.
This one's getting there. You have to go old Dorito's

(44:21):
days when you when a bit gets old, you gotta
keep it going for two to three weeks at least
after it's old and many. Yeah, you got to really
make it be a problem for folks, to be fair,
it was old three weeks ago. Yeah, but I never listen.

(44:41):
But does listen these products and services? Yeah, uh, we're
back and I'm thinking about what the next bit will be.
I can always judge because I cycled through a few

(45:01):
and and really it's the one that makes Sophie react
like she wants to hit me. That's when I know
I found a good new bit, which I would never do.
Never ever. You did throw a thing at me once
you you harmed Anderson. I didn't harm Anderson. I accidentally
cut you with a machete. Yeah, but you were swinging

(45:22):
it Anderson. Yeah, but I didn't harm Anderson. She's traumatized.
She's fine, she loves machete's Anderson knows she's always safe
around me with a machete. Yeah, but her mom is
all right. Well that was Look, there was a lot
going on, and in fairness to me, I was on

(45:42):
a lot of painkillers. So I feel like that's fair Sophie.
And you threw you threw things at me, Yeah, but
I didn't make contact. Unfortunately. Is this all just like
a little life lesson and about complicity and culpability? Yes, everything,
every thing is. And now you're all culpable and complicit

(46:03):
for listening. So thank you, thank you for thank you.
That's the beauty of complicity. Um, speaking of complicity, the
jail system, the criminal justice system. But they'll be so
good about both trans issues and mental health issues, right, Yeah,

(46:25):
this is definitely going to make everything better for Christine
being incarcerated. So the judge decides to hold her without
bond um, both for her safety and for public safety,
largely due to the fact that there's like immediately immediate
circus around the fact that she has been arrested. Um,
the online ship show that's just always around her accelerated

(46:46):
mightily after her arrest. In Local Virginia News, she was
listed as a quote transgender internet personality. Now this is
fucked up for a number of reasons, including the fact that,
like the fact that she's trans is almost no part
of this story up until it gets made that by
the conservative media. Like it's pretty late in her career
as a public person, and it's never really the focus

(47:09):
of any of like the ship she does that's like
like you know, trying to run down the run owner
for video game store or something like it. Only it
becomes the central part of the story once mainstream conservative
media picks it up. Um. Now, that local Virginia news
article I found on k v i A did go
into detail about her background as an internet personality, but

(47:30):
the article is still framed in such a way as
to allege that like she is, like being trans is
a a central part of her identity as a creator,
like that, like like you see what they're doing there, right,
Like I'm trying to like there, that's the thing. The
I think that kind of more mainstream sources don't know

(47:51):
what to do with someone who's with Christian's actual story,
which is very complicated and very weird, has a bunch
of things in it. But trans people are always a
culture war thing the right can grasp onto, and so
that's just what they do here. And it's I mean,
it's I can't speak for all trans people, but I
know that, like, being trans is like not a huge
part of my life, Like I mean it it is

(48:13):
because it has to be, because I have to think
about my safety everywhere I go. I have to think
about how people are going to treat me, whether or
not I'm actually in a good place. You know, all
of these things right that people who are marginalized along
a lot of different axis have to every day. But
it's like I I totally understand the like, no, I
just happened to be a woman, Like it's not the

(48:34):
center of my like being, you know. It's it's like
three weeks ago or so, people in Ukraine were just
as vulnerable to getting shot by artillery as they are now,
but it was less of a factor in their life
because people weren't shooting at them. Yeah. Yeah, So The

(48:55):
Daily Mail also identified her as trans YouTuber Christian Um,
also calling her a YouTuber is not really particularly accurate
because that's not really the primary thing that she did anyway.
But again, this is the Daily Mail, so did the
Blaze who? And The Blaze, as it describes her this way,
describes Ethan Ethan Ralph, that that right wing videographer as

(49:16):
a podcaster and streamer. It does not know that Ethan
Ralph was arrested in two thousand sixteen for felony assault
on a police officer and had a warrant for his
arrest sent out in November one for violating a restraining order.
He's just a podcaster and streamer. Yeah. Um. The corners
of the Internet, who had been mocking or obsessively following
Chandler for years at this point, reacted in predictable ways,

(49:38):
and for them this became yet another chapter in her
weird and winding story. But for the right wing media,
Chandler was a perfect example of the danger of the
trans menace, a suitably bizarre individual they could use as
a scapegoat. On August six, while Chandler sat in jail,
Tucker Carlson devoted an entire segment of his show, more
than five minutes of primetime coverage to Christine Chandler. I

(50:00):
really do apologize, but I feel the need to play
some of Tucker's coverage here so you can see where
he takes this. A YouTube personality called Chris Chan has
just been arrested in Virginia on of all things, incests charges.
Authorities say Chan was having sex with his seventy nine

(50:20):
year old mother, who has dementia. Chris Chan is a
biological man, but he identifies as a woman. Reportedly, Virginia
authorities initially went along with that. They classified Christian as
a female, and that means Chris Chan, who is an
accused sex criminal, would have been housed in a women's jail.
We understand this decision has been reversed, likely due to

(50:41):
public pressure. It became public unfortunately for the state of Virginia,
and Chan is now being considered a man by the jail.
But this is not an isolated incident. Many prisons in
this country do house biological men with women. This is
something we subpected. I think that's about enough, so you
see what's happened here, right This story has been turned

(51:02):
into what you know, a culture war issue over like
the danger of trans people and women like in women's presence,
like that's that's that's what Tucker finds useful in it, right, Um,
And that's where it immediately gets turned Um. And obviously,
the real story of Christian is of a an individual

(51:22):
who is profoundly sick um and has been for a
long time in ways that have nothing to do with
their gender identity. Um. They are primarily the victim of
abusive parenting, of bullying from peers, of an inadequate educational system,
and of course of her own bad choices and bigotry. Um.
All of these problems were exacerbated by an unprecedented campaign

(51:42):
of online harassment, probably more significant and encompassing than any
other single individual on Earth has endured. Um. There are
a lot of things to take out of the story
of Christian, But of course, once she went viral enough
for the mainstream conservative media to focus on her, everything
about her story gets boiled down to a trans ultrue
war thing. Yeah, it's funny, as if it happened in

(52:04):
the UK would be uh, you know, people claiming to
be on the left who would be making this same
cultural war arguments about sexual assaulting men and women's jail
or whatever. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you can find
folks on the left here who made that argument. I
tried not to delve too much into the YouTube discourse
around this arrest, because who needs that ship. Um. Chandler's

(52:28):
time in prison or in court was as surreal as
you'd expect. Um. She repeatedly has to go home to
get some of her things, like her video games and stuff. Um. Yeah, yeah.
She told the judge, I'm famous on the internet, like
interrupted him at one point when he was talking about
his concerned that people would seek at her location, which
is like why he justified keeping her on bond. Um.

(52:52):
Chandler was present at hearings in November of one in
February of two where her case was subject to continuances.
Her next court case is July two. She remains incarcerated
and her only connection to the outside world has been
through written correspondence and phone calls, all of which have
been dutally analyzed and shared with the community of people
who follow her every move. A large reason for the

(53:14):
continuances seems to be that her defense attorney is attempting
to get her mental health evaluated. I think he's going
for a like she is not competent to stand trial.
I don't think she is Yeah, easy to prove, um,
but so because these people are still reaching out to
her and stuff, and because she is the person that

(53:34):
she is at this point and has been kind of
trained in the way she has been. Three days after
her first continuance, she writes a letter to knowl from
Kiwi Farms and her defense lawyer, in which she defends
incests and claims to be Jesus Christ's reincarnation. Um yep,
which is both like you could see as admitting that

(53:55):
she carried out the behavior she's accused of, but also,
I would argue, is pretty good evidence that she has
not at all competent to stand trial. Um. I don't
know what's actually going to happen with this case. I
there's not much to hope for I. I because I
don't have a lot of faith that like there's an
institution that knows how to deal help her at all.
Like I don't know what. Like this is like a

(54:18):
tragic case where the thing that's actually needed is a
very patient, very emotionally intelligent, nice person to help her.
Social workers. Yeah, a team of very well paid social workers,
right right, Like that's if we actually if those existed
anywhere in the United States. Yeah, those are contradictory. And

(54:39):
what I know is in social work wants out just
because they can't afford rent. Yeah, but but that's what's necessary,
is like a team of people who care need to
like help the radicaliz is in't the right word, like,
but like need to try and help undo some of
the damage and help her break some of these terribly
toxic patterns that she's gotten into. Um, she needs to

(55:02):
not I'm not I don't think like banning anyone from
the Internet is going to help, but she needs to
not be online. Right. I'm not saying I don't believe
that a judge should order her off the internet forever.
I think that would be more harmful than any than helpful.
But like what she definitely part of what she needs
is to not be so fucking online, um, because that
ain't doing any favors for or to somehow be disconnected

(55:26):
from the like um yeah, like like I have a
feeling that for her, and I'm so not a mental
health expert or anything, um, but I have a feeling
that the ability to continue to post content probably is
like very important for her, right and like and probably
very important for some people who earnestly like what what
she does, um, but some way to keep the online coming,

(55:50):
like if the internet became a one way thing for
her somehow, like she has these people to like, I mean,
I've had to do this where like you know, if
I have an article go up on a website with
real bad trolls, my friends are just like, uh, don't
read the article, don't read the comments here, I'll tell
you the good ones and just don't look. Yeah, I'm

(56:13):
not saying this is the magic solution to seventeen. No, no,
there's there's no magic solution. Um, but yeah, something some
fucking thing like that, right, um yeah, or I don't know. Yeah, boy,
it's quite a pickle, this, this whole situation, um, and

(56:37):
I don't know what's to be done about it, but
like it's it undergird's everything that the internet is today. Yeah, yeah,
it's all the things that people could do because I mean,
you know, people I know, or people would do to
me things that they would then laugh about amongst ten people,

(57:00):
and so those ten people would find it funny that,
you know, whatever happened or whatever. And then I mean
it's also one of those things where it's like I
think things happen and this is a little bit projection
or something, but like things happen to trans women before
we come out, that mostly only happened to women, like

(57:20):
to women who are known to be women at the
time of the harassment or something like that. And so I,
you know, I don't think it's a coincidence that game
or Gate, uh you know, the first large scale, to
my understanding, large scale, systematic um use of this type
of thing over more than one person. I don't think
it's a coincidence that it first happened to a woman,

(57:42):
um who, even if no one involved knew that it
was happening to a woman. And maybe it is a coincidence.
And maybe I'm just like you know, looking out for
like even my home of I don't know, it really
depends on how she feels about still racist O kind
I think she might still be. I don't know. I

(58:03):
think it's certainly less less like of a thing than
it used to be. Um she I don't think she's
uh anti gay anymore? Yeah, But which which does show,
like I guess some of like and this is both
positive and negative because like the good thing is that Okay,
so she's clearly capable of growth and change. But the

(58:26):
ugly side of that is that, like all of her
growth and change has occurred within the context of this
bizarre world of internet harassment, that she's really the only
person who has ever endured to this extent um. And
so yeah, this is a hard sell when you were
like the person who has been harassed more than and
I'm like, I know some people who had to like

(58:47):
move houses and like, you know, yeah, I've had like
you know, And then I'm like, oh, yeah, no, okay, okay, Yeah,
Fortunately she hasn't to my knowledge. Software I guess she's
I don't know, the story that you brought up at
the very beginning of someone being driven to suicide by bullo, yes,
you know, um, and that happening with maybe increasing frequency

(59:11):
or maybe I'm just aware of it. Yeah, I mean
it's hard to like rate that from like is it
getting more common or not? I don't really know, um,
but yeah, I yeah, I hope she gets that, like
uh unicorn social worker who uh can figure out some

(59:36):
way to better enable her to exist in the world
without being as prone to the harms that have befallen
her as she currently is. Yep, Yeah, it is weird.
Like I think if she had never it's that it's
the kind of question like if she had never engaged

(59:58):
with the people making fun of for stuff online, would
this still be happening? And obviously you can't do that,
But so much of it is because um, she never
learned that kind of lesson that clearly people in her
early life. We're trying to treat you the teacher that

(01:00:18):
like you. Um, if you show people where you're vulnerable,
that's where they're going to attack you. Yeah, And it's
I mean it's heartbreaking though, right, because like, if we
have a culture where in order to produce content you
have to have a thicker skin, you are creating a
culture where people who um are prone to having a

(01:00:39):
thicker skin are the people who are going to come
forward and be being held up. And you're also gonna
have like people, you know. I feel like we've probably
all known people who started off kind of cool and
then as they got more famous and they started like
not listening, they had to stop listening to their haters,
because if you listen to people hate you all day,

(01:00:59):
nothing good going to come with that. But then they
stopped listening to reasonable critique as well. You know, there's
like there's so many reasons why vulnerability should be a
possible a thing that we can do, you know, um
as as creators. And it's just I mean, I don't know,

(01:01:20):
I have so many thoughts about this, and some of
it is even just like the way that like like
walking down the street as as as a woman is
more vulnerable than walking down the street as a man,
just like in general, right, you are like basically saying
like I am more vulnerable, but if you do it right,
it's a position of strength. It's a position of like
I'm so strong that I can be this vulnerable, And

(01:01:42):
I I wish I knew how to like cultivate that
in in culture to allow that to happen more. Yeah,
that's some I agree with you about the importance of that.
I have no idea da how you because I think
most of the people I know who have that it
was kind of a process of um endurance that was

(01:02:04):
produced by endurance eventually, you know. Um. And I because
I don't want to be like the sociopathic boomer responsive
like well that's that's because what they actually need to
do is just like tough at out you know, and
that's the only way anything good ever happens. And it's like, no,
I don't think kids have to tough out psychopathic things

(01:02:24):
being done to them by cruel people. And I actually
don't think that's a good basis for like an ongoing
understanding of how society should work. Yeah yeah, um, I
don't think people should have to endure any of the
things that Christian has endured. Um uh. And I don't
think that the answer to like what's happened to her,

(01:02:45):
what's happened to other people who have been in variations
of this is like, well, they just needed to like
get harrassed enough that they got over it. Yeah, yeah,
ah cool. All right, well Margaret, Margaret, it's time for
the plug. How you doing. Yeah, Well, if you want

(01:03:07):
to hear about good things, that's an excellent no, Margaret, Margaret,
what's that first word? If no? No, no, no, good
good good good. Sorry, Robert's not familiar type dictionary dot

(01:03:27):
com in the Google it's g g U D Robert.
It's that thing that we do every once in a
while around Christmas, get really drunk on mold wine. That too,
But I mean that is a good thing. If avery
an alligator in the dirt and start a fire over it.
That is a good thing, depending on your choices. Just you, Robert, Okay,

(01:03:52):
please continue, Margaret, I think I understand. Yeah, So I
am a host of a new podcast on I forget
the name of the network. It's like a refrigerator zone
is something about like a place that things are cold,
a place that things are cold. You mean freezing yeah,

(01:04:15):
on freezing media on cool Zone Media. I'm I'm I'm
starting a new podcast called Cool People Did Cool Stuff.
And it will not well, actually, I'm sure there will
still be horrible tragic things that happen, because lots of
bad things happen to good people also, um, especially when

(01:04:35):
people are trying to do cool stuff. But it is
a show about cool people who are trying to do
cool stuff or did cool stuff. And it launches May second.
And then I also have like a bunch of books
and music and all kinds of other things. And um,
I am on Twitter at Magpie kill Joy and I
on Instagram at Margaret Killjoy. We're off following Margaret. What

(01:04:59):
you doing? Yeah, what are you doing? What are you doing?
What are you doing? Come on, come on, it's just weird. Yeah,
sunk off, Well, funk over to Margaret's Twitter account. Fix
your error? Yeah, and uh you know that's the episode.

(01:05:21):
Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.
For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool
zone media dot com, or check us out on the
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