Part Two: The Jordan Peterson Episode

Robert is joined again by Cody Johnston to continue to discuss Jordan Peterson.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome back to Behind the Bastards, the show where Cody
and I just finished laughing about Herman Kane. Not because
there's anything funny about a death from COVID nineteen, but
because the Kane Gang. The Kane Gang, which are the
people who have taken over this dead Man's Twitter account
tweeted out an article from Herman Kane dot com that said,

(00:23):
resume life is normal over scientists and health of professional Yeah. Yeah, anyway,
it's very gang going strong because the guy they're named
after cannot resume life is normal because COVID killed him.
I don't know. The article says, fine, so conflicting reports,
one from a ghost and one from the ghosts friends.

(00:44):
So well, this is probably a bad way to open
a podcast about and beat us another victim of COVID nineteen.
But we'll talk about that. Yeah, he got it. Did
you not know that? Did I miss? Oh? Cody, We're
gonna have fun in this episode. This is part two
of our Jordan B. Peterson episode. Um, Cody Johnston is

(01:08):
my guest. Some more news. They're also a podcast of
a similar name. Um, my former co worker had cracked. Uh,
the man who invented the drive system to the podcast
you do together. You're just not going to do that.

(01:34):
So Dr Jordan Peterson picked a good time to reveal
himself as the philosophy daddy of the new Right. Two
thousand seventeen was a great year for his brand. Trump
was president. New conversations about Western chauvinism. We're cracking into
the mainstream thanks to the alt Right and groups like
the Proud Boys, and Jordan Peterson was among the most
popular and highly paid speakers in the country. It is

(01:56):
he's super fucking rich, like his gold gear. He was
doing so good, Skyrocketingen was a bit better, and then
things got a lot worse. Uh So he was polite
in urban enough that he could avoid being lumped in
with every liberals new boogeyman at the time the alt right,
while still radicalizing and funneling new members into the alt right. Uh.

(02:17):
Some perceptive writers critiqued him for this, my personal favorite
being the McLean's writer who declared him the stupid person
smart person. Um, yeah, now that a lot of I
mean a lot that that describes a lot of people
in the That does describe a lot of people. Vlogo sphere.
I want to quote from that article To be clear,
Jordan Peterson is not a neo Nazi, but there's a

(02:39):
reason he's as popular he as he is on the
alt right. You'll never hear him use the phrase we
must secure a future for our white children. What you
will hear is him say that, well, there does appear
to be a causal relationship between empowering women and economic growth.
We have to consider whether this is good for society
because the birth rate is plumbing. That's a quote from
Jordan Peterson. Yep. He doesn't call for a white ethno state,

(03:00):
but he does retweet daily color articles with opening lines
like yet again an American city is being torn apart
by black rioters. He has dedicated two and a half
hour long YouTube videos to identity politics and the Marxist
fly of white privilege. I can't say marxistly and not
to avenge, I'm sorry. Yeah, it's just where I go,
and they require requires a voice every time. Whenever I

(03:22):
say antifa, I do that now too. It's antiva. Yeah,
It's it's just how it is, how it does these days. Yeah.
So Jordan himself was careful to define himself as a
classic British liberal. This is not an uncommon line for
people to take when they hate things like trans rights,
but when a couch their bigotry in an appreciation for debate.

(03:42):
You'll never hear hate speech out of Jordan Peterson's mouth,
but he will be happy to explain to you when
his audience of millions that marginalized groups are infantilized by
identity politics and their offense, that the racism of his
white consumers is part of a culture of victimhood. Again,
no racial slurs, but he will explained to you why
it's wrong for people to be offended by racial slurs. Oh, yeah,

(04:05):
it's it's why. He'll explain, like here's why it's wrong
to be offended by this, or here's why, Um, it's
natural to like fear people like feel fear the other
and things he's tweeted. He once tweeted an article about
the dangers of diversity and how diversity is bad. Um,
and that article was by Steve Sailor from v Dare,

(04:29):
who yeah, literally a guy who invented something called the
Sailor strategy, which was what Trump strategy was basically like,
go to the uh disaffected like white aggrieved white Americans,
uh and play that game um and in the article uh,
he cited a study about how like, yeah, if you

(04:50):
have diversity, um, it causes like some you know, tension
and between the different groups. Um. And he cites that
in the article. He hasn't mentioned the part of the
study that points out that but in the long run
it improves economy and social stat it like, over time,
diversity improves society. It's just at the beginning it you know,

(05:13):
people are tribal and it causes some strikes. It is
always interesting whenever Peterson will share something like that that
goes out of its way to not include part of
a study that is antithetical to what they're trying to
um to prove he's a good guy, studious, studious man,

(05:34):
good tweets, good twart m hmm. Okay. So Peterson's repeated
jabs at identity politics are extremely funny in light of
the ways that he's attempted to co opt indigenous identity
for his own crude benefit. Did you know about this, Cody?
Do you know about Jordan Peterson's claims that he's been
inducted into an Indigenous I remember this, Yeah, give it

(05:59):
to me. In two thousand eighteen, old tweets of Peterson's
surface where and he told some sort of joke about
an Indian bartender's quote from him Senator Murray Sinclair, who's
a Canadian senator, so like not a real senator, but
you know what I'm saying, Um, that was a Canadian joke,
not an Indigenous person's joke. I'm making fun of Canadians. Um.
Senator Murray Sinclair, who's who's one of Canada's relatively few

(06:20):
Indigenous or First Nations senators got angry because Peterson was
furthering stereotypes about drunken Native Americans. That's like goes back
a long way. Um. And he also got kind of
angry because it's pretty shitty to call Indigenous people indians.
Um do that. There's I think different terms that kind
of people, certain people prefer, but no one seems to

(06:40):
like Indian. Um, let's not let's not use that one. Um.
One of Jordan's friends defended him by pointing at the
guy he had sent the tweet too, defended him by
pointing out that the joke that they were telling about
this Indian bartender was about a real incident with a
quote self identified Indian bartender who had duped Peterson's friend
out of a bottle of bourbon the night before Peterson
was set to become an honorary member of the Quaquaca

(07:04):
Wock tribe. Um. Now, all of this, I'm trying to
get it right. I looked it up in everything. I
don't normally do that, but yeah, um, all of this,
Hurwitz seemed to suggest was evidence that Peterson was not
biased against Native Americans, which is a statement that Peterson like,
liked and seconded on Twitter. Um. So, Peterson has repeatedly
brought up the fact that he was inducted into the
Quaquaca Wock tribe in order to defend himself from allegations

(07:26):
of racism. Into this and seventeen when a commentary on
Facebook suggested that he was a klansman. So this guy
on Facebook is like, you're basically you're in the KKK,
Peterson responded, if by KKK you mean Quaquaco lock of
whose nation I am a members? How it works? Short?
Very very good. Now. A reporter from a Canadian online magazine,

(07:47):
The Walrus, dug into this, and he found that Peterson
also claimed on the jacket of his book Twelve Routs
for Life that he had been inducted into the coastal
Pacific Quaquaca Walk Tribe. The reality of the situation as
the water was found was very different. Um there is
a quack walk a Walk artist named Charles Joseph Um
and numerous interviewers will note that Peterson's house is full
of Joseph's work, and we don't know what Peterson did

(08:07):
for Charles Joseph, but it was something really incredible and
like that he that that Charles Joseph like was deeply
impacted by. It was something meaningful enough that Charles Joseph
performed a special ritual to induct Jordan Peterson into his
family and as a result, he considers Jordan Peterson to
be a brother. There's obviously a huge honor and it
seems it's very clear that Jordan did something incredible to

(08:29):
help Charles. But as the walr was dubbed, they found
out that both Charles Joseph and the Quakwaka Walk tribe
disagree with Peterson's claims that he's been inducted into the
tribe because he was not Um. He was inducted into
Charles Joseph's family, but not into the tribe itself. It's
a very different thing, and it's a very important distinction.
Yeah yeah, yeah, um, And it's Peterson kind of claiming

(08:52):
that he's a part of this tribe in order to
deflect allegations of racism is a kind of dishonesty I
find particularly off putting because the real story is perfectly honorable,
like you helped this man out to such a degree
that he inducted you into his family, and especially like
that's a that's something absolutely yeah, yeah, but he's not
what he's saying, and especially like in terms of like

(09:15):
what he's using the fake story to try to prove. Yeah,
it's the kind of thing were he to respond to
someone calling him racist with, well, actually, this one indigenous
person I know, like I did something so good for
him that he indefted me into his family. That would
sound kind of like gross and weird and like you
were kind of like and it wouldn't be nearly a

(09:35):
snappy saying I'm a member of the Quakako tribe, So like,
how could I be racist? Like one of them makes
a better debate point, and also the more honest version
makes it clear like hey, dude, you it seems like
you might be kind of like um cashing in on this, right, Yeah,
you're using kind of weird thing to like prove this
other thing. Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't prove it anyway.

(09:56):
But also it's weird that you're using this to prove it. Yeah. Now,
the reality is that Jordan Peterson is someone who regularly
traffics in a kind of intellectual quasi bigotry masquerading as
intellectual curiosity. Some of his best lines include the idea
that women are were oppressed throughout history is an appalling theory,
and Islamophobia is a word created by fascists and used
by cowards to manipulate morons. White privileges a Marxist lie,

(10:20):
and believing that gender identity is subjective is as bad
as claiming that the world is flat? Oh is it?
It's as bad as that. That's good. That's good. That's
a lot of a lot of stuff, um from good
old Jordan's The i Q stuff is wild. Yeah, very
very rarely he um yeah not not not. I'm not

(10:46):
convinced by Jordan Peterson. Jordan B. Peterson, fake, fake, inducted
into a real tribe. It's weird, not not as compelling
as he thinks it is. No now Like Joseph Campbell,
who we talked about in our first episode. Jordan Peterson's
primary focus seems to have been Marxism, and it seems

(11:07):
like this probably started because he considered his fellow professors
to have been Marxist um and that that kind of
he generalized his frustration with these specific people who disagreed
with him because he hates it we need disagree with
him into a broader fear that Marxists worldwide we're in
the process of conquering every aspect of Western civilization. Peterson

(11:28):
tended to use the term postmodern neo Marxism or cultural
Marxism to essentially refer to the same idea. With the
fall of the USSR, Marxist lost the war with capitalism,
so they decided they had to sneak into the education
system and like brainwashed children's heads with, in Peterson's words, vicious, untenable,
and anti human ideas. That's how I would describe some

(11:48):
of his ideas. One anti human idea in Jordan's Reckoning
is that a college professor might get in trouble if
he specifically refused to refer to a transperson by their
chosen pronouns. Out of spite. That's to human anti human? Yeah,
oh my god, Jordan's yeah, it's like the live literally
the opposite. Like we all have things that frustrate us

(12:10):
in society. These can be reasonable or not. I am
angry that every time I want to just drink one
or two beers or a fifth of vodka while driving
my four Runner through a trailer park and firing out
of the window with an AK forty seven, people get
really angry and the police show up, Like, I find
that anti human, But I understand that, like I, you know,

(12:30):
part of living in society is that you you take
certain actions or don't take certain actions, because everyone agrees
things work better when you're not shooting up trailer parks
drunkenly in your for Runner all the time. Yes, they do.
That's a society that's humans. It's that's human. That's the
way society will be until I want win my my
congressional campaign. Yeah, and introduce the drunk driving in trailer

(12:55):
parks while firing out the window bill, which openly openly
a vote for me. Yeah. Yeah. So, in a battle
with stakes as high as the survival of Western civilization,
Dr Peterson is willing to justify fighting dirty. He calls
ideas he disagrees within debates silly, ridiculous, absurd, insane. Debates
are described as combat, and his followers seemed to respond

(13:17):
well to this. In a few seconds of searching, it
took no time at all. I found videos titled Jordan
Peterson destroys Islam in fifteen seconds more than two million views,
Jordan Peterson Destroying Feminists, a compilation video with three forty
nine thousand views, and watch angry Jordan Peterson get up
and destroy student who tried to smear him seven forty

(13:38):
one thousand views. Now the fundamentally combative nature of the debates,
Peterson prefers to engage him. Let him to tell Camille
Paglia in a two thousand seventeen interview, if you're talking
to a man who wouldn't fight with you under any
circumstances whatsoever, then you're talking to someone for whom you
have absolutely no respect. He went on to explain that
he has more trouble dealing with crazy women because he

(13:58):
cannot hit them. How can you argue with someone if
you can't, exactly if you don't, If you don't, it's
also like this is wild because he's also the kind
of guy would be like, well, don't punch a Nazi, right, Yeah,
Well yeah, Antifa's bad because they punched Nazis. Also, I
don't respect anyone who won't fight exactly um uh, consistently, inconsistent,

(14:22):
it's a beautiful thing. And all of that might make
you think that Dr Jordan Balthazar Peterson might be less
of a free speech buff than he appears to be.
The Guardian even notes quote Peterson's commitment to unfettered free
speech is questionable. Once you believe in a powerful and
maligned conspiracy, you start to justify extreme measures. Last July,
he announced plans to launch a website that would help
students and parents identify and avoid corrupt courses with postmodern

(14:45):
content within five years. He hoped this would starve postmodern
neo Marxist cult classes and do oblivion. Peterson shelved the
plan after a backlash, acknowledging that it might add excessively
to current polarization. Who could have predicted that blacklisting fellow
professors might exacerbate polarization? Apparently not the most influential public,
if intellectual in the Western world. Yeah, yeah, he likes

(15:09):
suing people too. He he loves suing people maybe, Like
it's just like, imagine what he would say if anyone
else did the same thing about him or the things
that he says. Just imagine what his response would be
to that, And like the idea that he needed a
backlash to be like, oh maybe this would maybe this

(15:30):
would cause some problems. Yep, maybe maybe maybe maybe so.
Jridan made buckets of money into Doant seventeen, but his
depression and his persistent feelings of imminent doom continued to
follow him. He told the Ottawa Citizen quote, in a
sensible world, I would have got my fifteen minutes of fame.
I feel like I'm surfing a giant wave and it

(15:51):
could come crashing down and wipe me out. Or I
could write it and continue. All of those options are
equally plausible. Keep that in mind too now. Meanwhile, people
who had befriended, supported, and aided Jordan throughout his career
increased increasingly felt frightened and betrayed by the path he
was taking. His old mentor, Professor Schiff, wrote that things
between them grew heated after Peterson's famous opposition to see

(16:14):
sixteen quote. This is from Professor Schiff. I have a
trans daughter, but that was hardly an issue compared to
what I felt was a betrayal of my trust and
confidence in him. It was an abuse of the trust
that comes with his professorial position, which I had fought for.
To have misrepresented gender science by dismissing the evidence that
the relationship of gender to biology is not absolute, and
to have made the claim that he could be jailed

(16:35):
when it worst he could be fined. In his defense,
Jordan told me that if he refused to pay the fine,
he could go to jail. That is not the same
as being jailed for what you say. But it did
ennoble him as a would be martyr in the defense
of free speech. Yeah, um, it did, and he knows that. Um.
A lot of his behavior Ine is uh. It becomes

(16:56):
very clear, like I'm talking about earlier in the pres episode,
about his sort of whether it was intentional or not.
Research into what what influences people and how to get
people on board with something with an idea, with an
ideology with belief the capital B belief, what, why, how

(17:17):
and why do people believe? Um? And what brings people
to to believe in like authoritarianism. Um and it Yeah,
he he knows, he knows what he's doing. He knows,
he knows exactly what he's doing. He knows he knows
exactly what he's doing. Um. Yeah, it's a he knows.
He knows a lot of things that he pretends to

(17:37):
not know. It's wild even just like watching clips of
him talk about different things, Uh in similar ways. There's
a you can find a few, uh, a few clips
of him talking on various podcasts about Hitler specifically and
the rise of Hitler. Sometimes he rationalizes it. It's like, well,
if you have this chaos, you you look for somebody

(17:57):
to bring order and make sense of that. Uh. It
could be it could be viewed as like Hitler apologia.
But um, given the benefit of the doubt and just say, uh,
he is explaining what people, uh, we're feeling. During the
rise of Nazi Germany. He has a whole video on
like you would have been a Nazi and like people
if you were there, you probably would have been a Nazi.

(18:18):
That's how the culture and society works. Um. And I
don't think Jordan Peterson is a Nazi. He definitely would
have been one. Also, Yeah, most people weren't Nazis until
the Nazi Like, even when the Nazis were in power,
Nazi Party membership was was not everybody Yeah, like yeah,

(18:38):
Jordan's is Um, I don't know. I do the same thing.
The episode that's running the week that we're recording this
is largely about how normal people became Nazis and how
they The scariest thing about it is that a lot
of people who were not monsters supported the Nazi Party
because of a lot of really uncomfortable realities of the
human condition. I think there's a responsible way, in an

(19:00):
irresponsible way to talk about that. The responsible way is
to try to inform people of the dangers in their
own thinking and the dangers in just sort of like
people's desire for safety and stability that can lead them
to support at least tacit least terrible things, and being like, well,
you would have supported the Nazis, so like, why are
you judgmental about Nazis? Yeah? Um yeah. And he even

(19:22):
has um. In contrast, you can hear him talk about
Trump a little bit in UM and in describing the
appeal of Donald Trump, it is uh indistinguishable from him
talking about Hitler um Internet of the the chaos and
the order and the things that people want and the
their fears, and how Trump is capitalizing on that. But

(19:45):
he doesn't make you ever make that connection. He's never
he uh presents it as positive um and not something
to be concerned about. He's never really criticized Donald Trump
for any of those reasons, while at the same time
ever talking about Hitler being uh the exact same way.
You can enter it. You can replace the names and

(20:05):
it would still be um. It would sound the same. Now, Cody,
you know who won't apologize for the rise of fascism?
Do they make beautiful, beautiful weapons? Oh well, Raytheon No,
of course not. Raytheon would never apologize for anything. That's
why you buy Raytheon products. Raytheon never apologize, never apologize.

(20:29):
Here's some other ats M. We're back. Ah. So now
we were talking about Schiff, Professor Schiff Jordan Peterson's old
mentor um and kind of like that writer with The

(20:51):
Guardian we quitted earlier, Shift is particularly concerned with Peterson's
conditional support of free speech. He knows Peterson well and
he began to see some pretty fashy tendencies from his friend,
Chief Among them were Peterson's relentless focus on transgender and
gender nonconforming people. And here's something that's basically what you
said earlier. Cody Jordan has studied and understands authoritarian demagogic leaders.

(21:12):
They know how to attract the following. In an interview
with Ethan Klein in an H three podcast, Jordan describes
as such, leaders learned to repeat those things which make
the crowd roar, and not repeat those things that do not.
The crowd roared the first time Jordan opposed the so
called transgender agenda, perhaps they would roar again, whether it
made sense or not. But why transgender in the first place.

(21:33):
In that same interview, Jordan's cites Carl Young, who talked
about the effectiveness of powerful emotional oratorical skills to tap
into the collective unconscious of a people and into their anger, resentment,
fear of chaos, and need for order. He talked about
how those demagogic leaders led by acting out the dark
desires of the momb yep, yeah, yeah, got them. Yeah,

(22:01):
I mean that's yeah, that's it's it's when you just
a little delving in, you really see what he's doing. Um, yeah,
not hard, not not super complicated. Two eighteen, a massive
douche canoe named Eric Weinstein first used the term intellectual
dark Web on Sam Harris's Waking Up podcast. Now the

(22:21):
official Intellectual Dark Web website lists him as a vanguard
of the I d W, alongside Dr Jordan Peterson. Interestingly,
it calls Erica left wing person, which is fun because
he's the managing director of Teel Capital. Why is he
never he never address that, no one ever brings it up,
it's wild. Then he can still make that claim, unbelieve.

(22:43):
What is funny is that while Peterson himself doesn't like
to identify his right wing, the Intellectual Dark Web website
does identify him his right wing because like a whole
part of its whole thing is that these guys are
people who come from every side of the political spectrum,
who exactly yes, I'll read you. How the web site
describes the men of the Intellectual Dark Web. They all

(23:04):
share two distinct and now uncommon qualities. First, they are
willing to disagree fiercely but talk civilly about nearly every
meaningful subject where they of public discourse. Religion, abortion, gender identity, race, immigration,
the nature of consciousness. Many of the opinions they hold
on such topics can sometimes be in contrast with the
orthodox opinion of their respective tribe. Second, they are intellectually
honest and thus resists parroting what's politically convenient or politically correct.

(23:27):
Notable that not on that list of things worth discussing
as economics. That's weird, that's funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know.
We've got religion, abortion, gender, identity, race, immigration, the nature
of consciousness, all the things that are worth talking about it.
Those are all those are all the things not economics,
because all of these people are rich as shit. And
then because the same thing they agree on, Oh my god,

(23:49):
there's a list of people is really depressing. It's it's awesome.
It fucking rules, dude. So yeah. Later in two thousand eighteen,
New York Times editor Barry Weiss published a fawning article
on this set titled Meet the Renegades of the Intellectual
Dark Web. Fuck beautiful. It's beautiful. Of those man, I
will argue, sit alone in your own room and read

(24:12):
the title of that New York Times article to yourself
while looking at the picture that leads the article, and
tell me that you don't full a second inhabit the
mental space of a high school bully who just wants
to dunk someone's head in a toilet, Like, just just
do it. Try it. Do your best to not feel
that it's a look God speaking, because my god, oh
my god, that photo. Take another one. It's amazing. Did

(24:37):
you have like a one shot left? Yeah, it's a
bad article about people I hate, in some cases, people
I personally hate, because Claire Lemon's on there and clear
Lyman basically said it was okay that really wonderful people
like Jason Wilson of The Guardian, who's one of the
best reporters in the entire country, deserve to have death
threats put against him because clear Lyman sucks. She's the editor.

(24:58):
She's trashed. Um. You can read the article if you want.
But the fact that nearly all these guys have only
grown less relevant in the last two years ought to
say something. But during the first half of the Trump regime,
Jordan B. Peterson never found a culture war. He wouldn't
throw some bullets towards. When James dam Or, the Google engineer,
was filed for writing about the company's ideological echo chamber,

(25:19):
Peterson spoke out in his defense. He repeatedly brought the
engineer up in debates as evidence that talk about discrimination
of marginalized groups was overblown and white men were the
real victims. In part on the strength of his endorsement
by Peterson and other I d w Types, James dem
Or filed a lawsuit against Google. He dropped it earlier
this year, with the exact nature of the resolution unknown.
Harmy Dylan I think was the lawyer in charge of

(25:40):
that case who also threatened me with a lawsuit for
telling the truth about Andy Know, which is that he's
a giant piece of ship and a grifter. I ignored
the lawsuit, fuck it like he did, never did anything
because it was It's a thing that lawyers do sometimes
if they're shady, where they like throw out bullshit, cease
and assists just try to stop speech they don't like.
Because people think that there's actually legal weight behind those things.
Generally isn't fuck them. Yeah, So it's worth noting that

(26:04):
there were basically no stories about James dam Or from
likeeen up until the case was dropped earlier this year.
The only other article I found mentioning him recently was
a Telegraph article about how a bunch of Silicon Valley
firms were hiring white supremacy consultants to avoid bringing people
like Damron in the future, which is funny because Harmona
Dylan was like, Oh, this case is really going to
make them think twice before they do this again. And

(26:25):
what it actually made them do is be like, oh,
we actually need to hire people to make sure we're
not hiring white supremacists. This seems to be a problem.
It's very funny. That's very funny. The little joys, it's
little things. It's the little things in life you treasure.
On January sixteenth, two thousand eighteen, Jordan Balthazar Peterson published

(26:46):
his second book, Twelve Rules for Life and Antidote to Chaos.
Unlike the sprawling and complex Maps of Meaning, Twelve Rules
is short, pointed and targeted directly at insecure men. Peterson
writes men have to toughen up. Men demand it, and
women want it. His first rule is stand up straight

(27:06):
with your shoulders back, and of course that's not a
bad thing. Good posture is perfectly healthy, and it's goods
of us good to stand to have better posture. Absolutely,
most of his rules are not inherently unreasonable and In fact,
part of what he did in this book was right
out something that basically anyone could read through and be like,
oh yeah, that's pretty reasonable stuff. It is standard self
health help book. It is very general advice, be like,

(27:30):
believe in yourself, like that there's some ship, sinister ship
under the surface, which we talk about. But I want
to summarize the main points he makes. The main Rules
for Life. A Psychology Today article written by the same
PhD who reviewed Maps of Meaning. We quoted from that earlier,
and we'll quote from it a little bit too, summarizes
the surface content of twelve rules for Life. Thus, Lee,

(27:50):
stand up for yourself, take care of yourself, make friends,
don't compare yourself to others. Mind your children, set your
house in order, pursue meaning, tell the truth, listen to people,
be precise, Give children freedom, and enjoy pets the day.
I don't disagree with any of that. Fine enough, Mind
your children, Give your children freedom. Yeah, you gotta do both.

(28:12):
You gotta do both. Interesting thing about the mind your
children is that the real rule is don't let your
child do anything that makes you dislike them. Yeah anyway, yeah, yeah.
That review continues part of Peterson's appeal comes through lively
stories from the Bible, fairy tales, his personal life, and
his practice as a clinical psychologist. All benign enough again,

(28:33):
but it's when you read into the book that fucked
up ship starts to bubble up. Like the line consciousness
is symbolically masculine and has been since the beginning of time,
and also the soul of the individual eternally hungers for
the heroism of genuine being. Now. I don't know how
that line reads to Normy's um, but it seems pretty
fashy to me, and also to Penka's Mishra, who wrote

(28:55):
that article about fascist mysticism, and Jordan Peterson for the
New York Review of Books, Pankaj writes that Peter person
basically positions his book as an answer to the crisis
facing Western civilization. Quote. Peterson diagnoses this crisis as a
loss of faith in old verities in the West. He writes,
we have been withdrawing from our tradition, religion, and even
nation centered cultures. Peterson offers to alleviate the resulting desperation

(29:15):
of meaninglessness with a return to ancient wisdom. It is
possible to avoid nihilism, he asserts, and to find sufficient
meaning and individual consciousness and experience with the help of
the great myths and religious stories of the past quote
following Carl Young. Peterson identifies archetypes in myths, dreams, and religions,
which have apparently defined truths of the human conditions since

(29:35):
the beginning of time culture. One of his typical arguments
goes is symbolically archetypeally mythically male, and this is why
resistance to male dominance is unnatural. Men represent order and chaos.
The unknown is symbolically associated with the feminine. Now, mm hmm.
Reading all that, nah, it's sucket. Reading all of this

(29:57):
made me think back to that first Psychology Today review,
the one that focused on maps of meaning quote. The
assumption of the cultural universality of myths is important for
Peterson because he wants mythology to provide the basis for
the psychological, philosophical, and political understanding of morality. But his
evidence for the generality of such myths is limited to
the tradition that runs from Mesopotamia through Judaism to Christianity,

(30:20):
with occasional references to Buddhism. Counter examples to cultural universality
are abundant, such as the Piraja people of Brazil, who
have no creation myths or interest in beliefs that go
beyond personal experience. The Iroquois people of North America do
have myths about creation and other aspects of the world,
but they do not follow the father, mother's son motif
that Peterson thinks is universal. Chinese mythology includes many gods

(30:42):
but no indication of the heroic son that Peterson over
generalizes from Christianity. So again, Peterson would never be so
crude to, like a proud boy, declare that West is
best or advocate for open white supremacy, because that would
be risking his following and his money. Instead, he declares
that the myths he uses to base his morals them
that he thinks everyone should follow in the whole world,

(31:02):
that those myths are universal to all cultures, while deliberately
excluding any discussion of cultures whose myths don't support his beliefs.
It's a kind of internal ideological ethnic cleansing, and Jordan B.
Peterson is very good at it. In interviews, Dr Peterson
is clear that fascism and authoritarianism is bad. At the
same time, he regularly reinforces the arguments made by fascists

(31:22):
and authoritarians in his work. From the New York Review
of Books quote, those embattled against political correctness on university
campuses will heartily endorse Peterson's claim that there are whole
disciplines and universities forthrightly hostile towards men. Islamophobes will take
heart from his speculation that feminists avoid criticizing Islam because
they unconsciously long for masculine dominance. Libertarians will cheer Peterson's

(31:44):
glorification of the individual striver and his stern message to
the left behinds maybe it's not the world that's at fault.
Maybe it's you. You fail to make the mark. The
demagogues of our age don't read much, but as they
ruthlessly crack down on refugees and immigrants, they can derive
much philosophical backup from Peterson's sub chapter headings Compassion is
a vice and toughen up, you weasel. That's yeah, yep, yep,

(32:06):
it's all there. He's he's really skilled at not saying
it's not saying quite not. He gets you a little,
he gets you there. He's laying the foundation. Yeah. And
and that article on Peterson and fascist mysticism gets into
what's problematic about stuff like compassions, device and toughened up,
you weasel, problematic beyond what you might initially assume. Quote.

(32:28):
Peterson rails today against softness, arguing that men have been
pushed too hard to feminize, and his best selling book Degeneration,
the Zionist critic Max Nordau amplified more than a century
before Peterson the fear that empires and nations of the
West are populated by the weak will, the effeminate, and
the degenerate. The French philosopher Georges Sorel identified myth is
the necessary antidote to decadence and spur to rejuvenation and

(32:50):
intellectual inspiration to fascists across Europe. Sorel was particularly nostalgic
about the patriarchal systems of ancient Israel and Greece. It
was against this eerie fem of your background, a revolt
against the modern world, As the title of a Volas
nineteen thirty four book put it, that demagogues emerged so
quickly in twentieth century Europe and managed to exalt national
and racial myths is the true source of individual and

(33:12):
collective health. The drastic individual makeover demanded by the visionaries
turned out to require a mass, coercid retreat from failed
liberal modernity into an idealized traditional realm of myth and
ritual that all scans real real Well yeah, um yeah,
it's a h uh, there's a ah, there's just a

(33:39):
lot there. He doesn't it's yeah, it's it's like it's this,
I mean, it's the constant rejective of modernity. And it's
like it's contempt for the week is what it really
comes down to. Uh, like contempt for and resentment of
what you perceive as weakness or weak people, weak types
of people, weeks way, weak ways of thinking. Um. And

(34:03):
uh again it's not like on its face, you're not
like that's fascism, but like you just like a little
dig a little deeper, scratch a little bit, or like
go a little further to what like what's the next step,
what's the law's like extrapolate for a bit, what do
you think should happen? Then? Um? Also side note, I

(34:25):
think his weird thing about we need to get back
to like why all the Marxist there, we're getting away
from nation centered cultures. Do you think like maybe part
of just like the natural reason that we're getting away
from the nation centered cultures is because, like the Internet
connects people instantly across the globe, and like we as
humans are like evolving across the like's. Yeah, maybe if

(34:46):
you have a bunch of friends who like, because of
some weird lines on a map, can't ever visit you
or you can't visit them, maybe you start to be like,
oh huh, it seems like a bad idea. We should
do something else. Maybe the best I da for how
we organized the world wasn't thought up like hundreds of
years ago. By yeah, there's a better thing than nations, Like, yeah,

(35:09):
what not nations? What about horizontal methods of social organization
that avoid vesting unreasonable powers in individual human beings who
are never fit to wield it. I don't know, sorry,
I'm just your anti hercle. I'm anti human. Yeah, yeah,
it's anti human for sure. It's anti human. Urging us

(35:30):
to be more connected and equal across the globe is
anti human. Very good, yes, fundamentally, which is why I'm
very pro robot and why my entire house is nothing
but Amazon Alexas and a filthy mattress. Now in maps
of meeting Jordan Peterson analyzed a number of authoritarian regimes
and totalitarian crimes. He came away with the conclusion that

(35:51):
the heroic individual was the only way that to avoid
such horrors. On page three, he notes the hero rejects
identification with the group as the ideal of life, preferring
to follow the dictates of his conscience and his heart.
His identification with meaning and his refusal to sacrifice meaning
for security renders existence acceptable despite its tragedy, And on

(36:12):
page four eight three, A society predicated upon belief in
the paramount divinity of the individual allows paramount interest to
flourish and to serve as the power that opposes the
tyranny of culture and the terror of nature. It's really
it's just like really good at obvious skating. Uh, he's
saying with his language. Yeah, it's fake profundity to convince

(36:37):
people that anything you're not, you don't personally like, is
an assault on you. But anything you want to do,
if someone tries to stop you, it means that they're
they're bad culture or whatever. Yeah, you know who likes
cults of heroism Nazis Nazis Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean,

(37:00):
and it's also worth noting that not only does Nazi
or fascism in particular, as umberto Eco noted, have an
obsession with the cult of the hero, but also the
story of fascisms rise in Europe is the story of
a lot of individual heroic people who failed to stop
Nazism from happening. You can say the same thing for
the horrible crimes committed in you know, the USSR and
Malis China. There were a lot of decent, individual heroic

(37:22):
people who were like, this is a bad idea, we
shouldn't do this, and they didn't get their way because
individuals have very limited power. And perhaps if people in
say bym Our Germany, had been less obsessed with their
own personal lives and their own personal political opinions, with
cleaning their room, so to speak, and perhaps if more
of them had been willing to get out on the
street and organized together and physically resist, perhaps the Nazis

(37:44):
and would not have risen the way that it did.
Perhaps perhaps count counterpoint um the idea of consciousness within
our trails off and then we give him money right
until yeah, exactly, just like Peterson views totalitarianism as a
spiritual problem. According to Psychology Today, He contends that it

(38:05):
is the result of neglecting the moral tradition rooted in Christianity.
The best way to resolve this problem is spiritual, based
on the divinity of the individual. For Peterson, the solution
to totalitarianism is a combination of religion and individualism. Now,
I happen to find this fascinating when you juxtapose it
with a passage from another wonderful book about Peterson in
The New Yorker it notes, or another wonderful article about

(38:27):
Peterson in The New Yorker it notes. Peterson seems to
view Trump, by contrast, as a symptom of modern problems,
rather than a cause of them. He suggests that Trump's
rise was unfortunate but inevitable, part of the same process
he writes as the rise of the far right politicians
in Europe. If men are pushed too hard to feminize,
he warns, they will become more and more interested in harsh,
fascist political ideology. Peterson sometimes asks audiences to view him

(38:51):
as an alternative to political excesses on both sides. During
an interview on BBC Radio five, he said, I've had
thousands of letters from people who are tempted by the
blandishments of the radical right who moved towards the reasonable
center as a consequence of watching my videos. But he
typically sees liberals or leftists or postmodernists as aggressors, which
leads him rather ironically to frame some of those on
the radical right as victims. Yeah, yeah, he does that. Um,

(39:14):
it's it's interesting because there's uh, I mean, I don't
think it's controversial to say that Donald Trump and the
rise of Trump is a symptom of society's problems as
opposed to the cause of them. Sure, but it is
the cause of some problems. But yet Yeah, it's basically
the cause of like a lot of our problems these
days and exacerbates a lot of our problems. But like society,
uh was suffering for a lot of reasons. And uh,

(39:37):
that's what's strong men do. They They demagogue, They come in,
they say I can solve I can fix all your problems. Um.
But the way Jordan talks about it, uh, it's he
it's justifying it. It's not like his his his prescription
is not oh yeah, like this inequality or like this
or like people's material needs or anything like that. It's like, oh, yeah,

(39:58):
Trump was inevitable, and he's to bring order to the
chaos because all these people are victims and they need
a man to come in and solve their problems. Uh,
and bring order to that chaos like another guy he's
talked about in the exact same way. Um. Or another option,

(40:19):
we could go to Mr Peterson and see what he
wants us to do and just sort of listen to
him and his every word. There's a little interview, Uh,
I forget who was interviewing him. He's asked about his
fans and his responses. I don't have fans, and he
doesn't finish it. He hasn't finished his thought, but he
does he does have followers, Yes he does. See that

(40:41):
is the word he was alluding to. Yep, yep, yep.
I may have to create a countercult to deal with
his cult. Sophie Robert Sophie, can we um? Can we
look into how many people I have to have worshiping
my words in order to buy like an arms export license?
And I don't know, create some sort of we should

(41:02):
we should talk about this offline, um, But I I do.
I think we should get maybe maybe loop the fine
folks at raytheon and on that call, Yeah, this would
be great. I'm gonna get that land in Idaho too.
So Peterson talks a good game about the horrors of Nazism,
but his rhetoric very often turns worryingly close to the
exact same ship Nazi. Seems to say that. For example, liberals,

(41:26):
he says, are always talking about the importance of compassion,
and yet there's nothing more horrible for children and developing
people than an excess of compassion. This horror, he says,
is embodied in the figure of the Freudian devouring mother.
As an example, he cites Ursula, the sea witch for
the Little Mermaid. Oh he loves Disney. Oh he loves
how Disneys is destroyed. And it's never like the like, yeah,

(41:48):
Disney's like this media conglomer they own everything, and that's bad.
But it's always like it's propaganda to tell you that
your daughter can do what she wants. It's more to
me his obsession and with how compassion is bad and
how softness is a problem in society, because yeah, it's
familiar if you read a funk load of Hitler speeches,

(42:10):
because one of Hitler's favorite words was hardness and how
people German Men needed to be harder like the Germany
needed to raise up a generation that was as hard
as kraft stall, which is like a specific kind of
steel making weapons manufacturer. Yeah. Now, German Morgue Hitler thought
that german Men were going to need to be as
hard as steal if they were going to steer their

(42:31):
nation back from the brink of despair, because it was
going to require them to do unpleasant things. I want
to quote now from an article in the Journal of
Central European History by Thomas Coon. The article's title is
Protean masculinity, hegemonic masculinity. Soldiers in the Third Reich, hegemonic
masculinity and Nazi Germany, as well as in many militarized
societies around the globe, meant physical, emotional, and moral hardness.

(42:55):
The ideal man embodied by the soldier was tough and
aggressive and control of his body, mind and psyche. He
did not hesitate to sacrifice life and limb on behalf
of the fatherland, or to subordinate his individuality under the
command of a conformist group of comrades. Whereas many scholars
have already stressed these features of hegemonic masculinity, this article
argues that the act of soldiering provided men with a
male identity that was ultimately not defined by the repudiation,

(43:18):
but rather integration of what was and is often coded
as feminine and the social practice of male interaction. Diversity
and flexibility were needed, thus allowing for the display of
femininely coded behavior like affection, tenderness, empathy, caring, and tolerance
towards emotional breakdowns and moments of weakness in their midst
Thanks to its inclusive nature, such protean masculinity enabled different
types of soldier men to establish male identities. It also

(43:41):
allowed them to switch among different emotional and moral states
without losing their manliness. Yet this was true only if
the predominance of hardness was respected. Eventually, protean masculinity integrated
diverse men and diverse emotional and moral conditions into a
fighting unit and, in the case of the Third Reich,
into a gendicidal society. So this idea that like they

(44:03):
had to they had to reject femininity, but also feminine
traits or traits they considered feminine, were inherent aspects of
the people they needed to make into soldiers. So the
thing that was most important for the Nazis was developed
this idea of hardness, and you could break down, you
could be emotional, you could cry, you could be like
fucked up by the violent acts you were committing. As
long as you exhibited that hardness, that was all that mattered,

(44:24):
because the essence of masculinity was a willingness to do
hard things as specified by brutality, right like that, to
do it anyway, even though you're gonna have that reaction
to it, um, but you still do it. You can't
still keep doing it m hm. Which is why there's
actually quite a few stories about men like shooting thousands
of Jewish people to death and like weeping while they

(44:46):
did it, but like they still did it. They Yeah,
they're hard, they're hard enough hard men. I'm proud of
us for saying hardness this many times and not making
an erection joke, Cody. I think we did a great job,
and I think we're still doing a really good job,
and referencing that didn't do it doesn't count us doing it,
so it does not. I just think are the kind
of heroism that we exhibited there should be celebrated. Yeah,

(45:08):
it would say that, I don't know, you should celebrate Robbert,
you know what will make erection jokes while quoting Hitler speeches.
That's exactly what I was going to say. The products
and services that support this podcast fantastic. I can't wait
to hear both of those things said by them. We're back.

(45:31):
So Jordan Peterson is just a teacher, you know, he's
a lecturer, he's an author. And one might argue that
it's silly to keep harping on what an obvious fascist
the dude is, given his distance from any kind of
actual power, But according to Professor Schiff, Dr Peterson has
in fact seriously considered getting into politics and grabbing power.
He seriously investigated the possibility of running for leadership of
the federal Conservative Party of Canada. While he was discouraged

(45:53):
in pursuing this by influential friends, he did stick his
hand into Canadian politics, pushing Party leader Andrew Sheer to
propose that Universe funding be cut by until politically correct
schools were reined in. Yeah, might not be free speech
if you're doing that, I'd say yeah. In two thousand nineteen,
he went to d C where he lectured Congress about bipartisanship,

(46:15):
which again might sound great if you don't remember the
weird ship Peterson has been saying about wanting to save
people from both political extremes via his weird quasi Christian
sort of fashion mystical morality. Bullshit, m it's like a questionable.
Maybe it's frustrating to have to know like everything the
man's written and said, to really like approach everything he
does with like, well, okay, you do this, But also

(46:38):
m hmm, yeah, I think it's fine to just see
what experts in his field have have said, and also
to analyze a lot of the things that he said, Um,
but not all of them, because that's an unreasonable bar
to hold someone too before critiquing them. So once he
got famous, obviously he started think about getting into politics
and maybe he'll try to do that someday. But before
he got famous and politics seemed like a less real

(47:00):
listic career choice for him, he was still veering in
a distinctly unsettling direction and going away from traditional academia,
which had never really been his bag. From Professor Shift's
article quote, several years ago, Jordan Peterson told me he
wanted to buy a church. This was long before he
became known as the most influential public intellectual in the
Western world, as he was described in the pages of
The New York Times a few months ago. It was

(47:20):
before he was fancied to be a truth telling sage
who inspired legions and the author of one of the
best selling books in the world this year. He was
just my colleague and friend. I assumed that this was
for a new home. There was a trend in Toronto
of converting religious spaces vacant because of their dwindling congregations
into stylish lofts. But he corrected me. He wanted to
establish a church, he said, in which he would deliver
sermons every Sunday. Now, Professor Shift knows Peterson better and

(47:44):
has known him longer than I would say any members
of the intellectual dark web to be certain, and then
most people. Um. By late two thousand eighteen, Shift was
worried enough about his friend that he published this article,
which was clearly a very painful decision for him to make. Again,
he lets this guy live in his house for like
six months. Um, yeah, we get all these promotions, like
they were like, yeah, you fought for him to get

(48:05):
money and promote Yeah, Like was a very dedicated friends,
professional and personally, and you can if you read the article,
which I recommend. It's clearly a was a painful article
for him to write um, and he went through a
lot of long arguments with Jordan, first trying to turn
him away from what she'd considered an increasingly frightening path.
You don't understand. I am willing to lose everything, my home,

(48:26):
my job, et cetera, because I believe in this. And
then he said, with the intensity he's now famous for.
Bernie Tammy had a dream, and sometimes her dreams are prophetic.
She dreamed that it was five minutes to midnight. That
was our last conversation. He was playing out the ideas
that appeared in his first book, The Social Order Is
Coming Apart, where on the edge of chaos, he is

(48:46):
the prophet and the would be martyr Jordan would be
our savior. I think he believes that. I am so
happy we finally got here. I've been hold I've been
holding on this for so long, and all right, let
it loose. Man. It's just beautiful. It's my favorite thing
about him. It's my favorite fact that nobody seems to know.
This is like something that like when you explain, like

(49:08):
when you describe this to them, They're like, oh wait,
why does anybody take this man seriously? Um? He wanted
to buy a church to give weekly sermons to people,
and believes that his wife has prophetic dreams about the
end of the world and that he is the man
that is going to save the world. He thinks that
there are allusions to it in maps of meaning where

(49:29):
he's the guy who's gonna like save the world. But
he literally said that he thinks that he is that
because his wife has prophetic dreams. It's why, aw, I'm
so happy we finally got here. It all makes sense
once you like once like what that little bit makes sense,
It's all all. Yeah. He sees himself as I don't know,
some sort of almost supernatural leader who's maybe like like

(49:52):
like on a on a on a subconscious like epocaal level,
welded to a people. I don't know, you might call
it like a leader principle that like whatever it represents
like the like the like spirit of a nation, sort
of like the sort of like yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,
yeah yeah, Like he embodies the will of the people
in his in his in his living soul, and thus

(50:13):
anything he thinks has to be the correct way for
things to go because he's speaking through the supernatural like
like reality of speaking deep universal truths. Yes, oh God, alright,
like oh I have an itch in them. So I
I this relief. I just feel relief now, yeah, yeah,

(50:35):
yeah yeah. I don't know precisely what path Jordan B.
Peterson was on as two thousand nineteam dawned what he
was going to do next in his career. Uh, it's
possible his ambitions wouldn't have gone much beyond motivational talks
and self help books. But Professor Shift does not seem
to think this was the case. That's why he wrote
this article quote what I am seeing now is a darker,
angrier Jordan than the man I knew. And Karen Heller's

(50:57):
recent profile in the Washington Post, he is can it
about his long history of depression. Depression is an awful illness.
It is a cognitive disorder that casts a dark shadow
over everything. His view of life as nasty and brutish
may very well not be an idea but a description
of his experience, which became for him the truth. But
this next statement from Heller's article is heartbreaking. You have
an evil heart like the person next to you. She

(51:20):
quotes him as telling a soul out crowd. Kids are
not innately good, and neither are you. You. Yeah man,
that is yeah, yeah, Like it is very bleak. And
it's one of those things that like if you don't
think too much about it, you might not analyze it
because like it's one thing to say kids aren't inherently good,

(51:41):
because nothing is that. No one's inherently good. But people
aren't inherently evil either. They're inherently self oriented and that
takes some like personal growth to escape to the degree
that's necessary to participate in the functional society. Sure, but
not evil, Like that's real, intense, that's real. Um yeah,
I mean it shows that he's kind of selling something.

(52:02):
Um yeah, it sure does. Now we may never know
the next act Jordan B. Peterson had planned because his
own life seems to have encountered this disruption. Since then, chaos,
you might say, has chaos in the form of his
daughter Michaela. So the first sign that something was off

(52:29):
was probably went on he went on Joe Rogan Show
to let everyone know that he had embraced his daughter,
Michaela's all meat diet. Michaela suffered from rhematoid arthritis, and
it was severe enough that she had to have a
right hip and ankle replaced at age seventeen. And then
she started like so, in order to combat that and
her fatigue and her cistic acne, like, she started taking

(52:51):
cutting all of her all of everything but meat out
of her diet. Eventually, like when she after some experimentation,
wound up figuring out that like all of her problems
were solved by eating nothing but meat and salt and
sparkling water. And so she began promoting that as a
healthcare for everybody and selling one on one consultations, much
like her dad had done for people who were having

(53:11):
trouble with her all meat diet. Uh. And then Jordan
Peterson goes on Joe Rogan and he's like, I've been
doing this and quote, I lost fifty pounds. My appetite
has probably fallen by I don't get blood sugar disregulation problems.
I need way less sleep. He claimed that his depression
and anxiety were gone, that his mind was sharp, and
my gum disease is gone. Like, what the hell? Yeah,

(53:32):
I agree, Jordan, what the hell. He also told everybody
that one time he had a cider and it made
him not sleep for like two months, and then when
people pointed out that it was impossible to do that,
he was like, well, I guess you know, obviously I
slept at points, but like it wasn't well and like
like the insider isn't gonna like Jordan's yeah is it?
What is it? Like an unavoidable like sense of dread.

(53:55):
He described it as I think, yeah, you have severe
anxiety and depression and you blamed it on a single
drink of cider and like yeah, and also like just
claiming claiming, like he literally like he claimed that he
did not sleep. It wasn't like oh I had trouble
sleeping or this, And I was like, no, I did
not sleep, um, which is not what happened. No, it's

(54:16):
not I wasn't there, but that's not what happened. It's
definitely not what happened. Because you die, because you would
have done you did, you'd be a deader. You'd be
a Herman Kane type Kane type, and MICHAELA would be
tweeting from your account about how you should only me
it's great, drink cider, drink cider. So yeah. Peterson's health

(54:39):
problems first surfaced in two nineteen, and this is when
his family announced that he had gone to rehab an
upstate New York. MICHAELA claimed that he had been prescribed
clone as a pam um, which is a benzo, in
two seventeen, which was due to a severe autoimmune reaction
to food which might have been like that cider thing
I don't really know, um. And his dose was increased

(55:00):
after his wife was diagnosed with very severe kidney cancer
in April of two nineteen. And obviously that's an incredibly
stressful thing to do. And if your guy, who was
already prone to anxiety and depression, your beloved wife getting
diagnosed with a very serious cancer is going to funk
you up. It's kind of like ruin you for a while.
Like obviously, like any person would be in the same thing,
but UM. And so Jordan went on medication for it

(55:23):
UM and it became a problem for him, and he
wound up having withdrawal symptoms. And he will claim that
he was only ever sort of like chemically addicted to
it because he didn't really understand what it would do
to him UM, and he went to rehab. It didn't work, obviously,
like this, uh this as as kind of In a
video that she later published, MICHAELA and Jordan noted how
like bad that being you know, diagnosed as having a

(55:44):
drug addiction would be for her dad's brand, Um, because
you know he talks about how you've got to like
that that's a weakness that you can rid from yourself. Um,
but yeah, kind of messed up that that happened. But
also sometimes like like it's okay to appear I get
quote but weak and like if you struggle, like yeah,

(56:07):
if you're not a person who I advocates the things
that Jordan Peterson advocates, then you could be like oh yeah,
I mean, dude, like your fucking wife got cancer, of course,
like the like some ship, like that's the most normal
thing in the world that like you developed a problem,
Like of course, no shame, dude, Like deal with your
like like we're supportive of you, we care about you.
Obviously this is a hard time. But that's not Yeah,
that's not what It's not what he subscribes to. It's

(56:28):
not what he uh tells people that they need to
do otherwise they're failing or whatever exactly. Um, I mean
the same thing with his his rule about don't ever
let your child do something that uh displeases you or whatever.
And like Michael's like dating like a like literally a
pickup artist. She's dating pickups to believe that he is

(56:51):
inhabited by a demon named Igor. Yep, we'll talk about
Michaela's relationship and justice spell. Oh thank goodness, Okay, I apologize.
So a lot of bad things continued to happen to
Peterson by August or September like two, that's nineteen. He
wasn't bad enough shape that his family was like more
worried about him than his wife who was dying of cancer. Um,

(57:13):
he tried to quit cold turkey a couple of times
and that had not worked. And if you tried to
quit a drug addiction and like it doesn't work out,
it kind of makes it harder to quit in the future. Um,
detox is harder as a result of that and stuff.
So he was in a really bad situation. Um, And
like he also may have had some like very rare
kind of reactions to clone as a PAM that like

(57:35):
aren't common. But anyway, he was he was like all
fucked up and he was also couldn't get off of
this medicine UM, and MICHAELA developed, who for some reason,
was in charge of his health care at this point,
even though she's a not competent to really do much
of anything person, I would argue based on her advocation
of eating nothing but meat and salt. UM, she wound

(57:55):
up in charge, and she decided that they needed a
a medical treatment or a medical specialists who had the
guts to detox and cold turkey uh in a place
where doctors quote aren't influenced by the pharmaceutical companies. So
she traveled to Russia where they did a very unrecommended
process where they basically gave him a medical induced coma

(58:17):
in order to quit him cold turkey UM, which is
not a good idea. UM. He need to be in
a breathing machine. He got pneumonia. It was just like
this horribly traumatic physical process that probably did permanent damage
to his brain. UM. Because it's bad for you. It's
bad to do that. Yeah. It seems like like people
try to avoid being in commas um and doing that

(58:37):
kind of thing generally. UM. But you know, good luck. Yeah,
it doesn't seem to have been great. UM. And Yeah,
obviously MICHAELA has like blamed all of this on Western medicine,
blames the pneumonia on a North American hospital. Um and
it's uh, yeah, I thought West was best. That's yet,

(59:00):
in the words of the New Republic, Michaela is essentially
weaving her own hero's journey and were father's ordeal when
in which she brought him to a far funk flunk
clinic that had the guts to do what Western doctors wouldn't.
It's a tale that burnishes her brand as a wellness
influencer and shoves aside awkward questions about whether the treatment
harmed Peterson. Uh. And shortly after that article came out,
the news broke that she'd taken them both to Serbia

(59:21):
to go to clubs during the COVID shutdown with her husband,
um and had given her dad COVID nineteen and he
had gotten very sick. Uh And he's probably alive still,
But the pictures that he's been in recently don't look good.
He's not well, he's not well, he's not looking great. Um.
It does seem to still be alive. He does seem
to still be alive. Maybe he'll recover enough to come

(59:43):
back and do his thing again. But he hasn't yet.
He hasn't yet. I've been what, I've been sort of
curious about it too. I've been like waiting because it's like, yeah,
he's going through a really hard time and like all
this stuff, uh, and part of me is like, Okay,
so after about a year, um, he will re emerge, uh,
and it'll be some it'll be like a spiritual awakening, reinvigoration,

(01:00:07):
some sort of thing like I like, I always felt
like this will be used to sort of push the
cult stuff and like his his position, um, and people's
view of him as as this sort of uh savior. Um.
I don't know if that's still going to happen, because
it does seem like he just keeps getting sick and

(01:00:28):
sick and sick for real reasons. The hard thing is like,
is he actually going to get better or has he
like been permanently damaged in such a way that he
won't be able to continue doing the stuff that he
was doing. Like I just don't think we really know. Yeah,
there's no Yeah, I can't. I can't tell. It's it
was always like a worry in the back of my mind,
but now it's like I have no idea how he's
doing or if yeah, when his daughter is going to

(01:00:50):
try to do to him next, yep, yep something her
pick up artist boyfriend h Yeah. I wanted to read
a quote from her that she wrote about her and
her pickup artist husband. Life is complicated. When Andre and
I met, we argued about Stalin all night. I think
he's been brainwashed. He disagrees and accuses me of the same.

(01:01:12):
He told me he had to immigrate after the wall
fell and his family had to start again in Canada.
He told me he'd been shot at as a kid.
He has black belts. He practiced his sword work. He
scared me. He told me he had a demon inside
him named Igor. It didn't seem like a joke. He
didn't wasn't like anyone I had met, and I didn't
know what to make of it. I got pregnant with
Scarlett after eight months of dating the strange Russian man.
It was terrifying. We decided to have her. I couldn't

(01:01:33):
bear any other thought, and we got married despite intense
pressure from his family. They think I'm a cult leader.
Smiley faced with a halo. Were separated about a year
after Scarlett was born. It was awful. It was me really,
I ran And of course she's back together with him
now and they gave their dad or her dad. Yeah, yeah,
that's great, that's just all. It's just a wild place.

(01:01:56):
Um yeah, wild times. For the Peterson's uh you can
find on YouTube. You can find him in a lecture
talking about how pickup artists are psychopaths. Yeah, if you
wanted to do that out. But his brain might not
be functional anymore because of all of the horrible damage
his daughter did. Do it because he couldn't bear the

(01:02:16):
thought of just like going through the kind of detox
treatment that that other people do, Like it's Jordan Peterson,
so he had to go through some like weird Russian
thing Like you couldn't. You couldn't just like go to
a thing and be like, yeah, I have a problem,
like and I can't deal with it on my own.
I need other people's help, Like no, I need right.
It's a weird it's like a weird like conflict too,
because like there's parts like I I don't want I

(01:02:37):
don't want to go uh the Western Way, and like
I don't want to go and say I need help?
Could you help me? How do I like, uh fight
this Um, he's going like the self and news Cooma
in a way is like I'm doing it myself, but
but like it's not. It's like you're you're not doing

(01:02:59):
it yourself. You're not you're not standing up straight, you're
not keeping you're not doing the poster thing, you're not
cleaning your own room, You're letting other people do it.
I don't know. There's a weird conflict there with his
uh his views. That's not uh unexpected with him. I
don't know what. I'm surprised. It's just everything does. It's
very interesting. Yep. And in contrast with his book based

(01:03:21):
off of him answering questions on Cora, it's good stuff.
Well that's our episode, Cody Jordan B. Peterson is I
don't know, hard to say where he is but not
in a great place. But he's also not doing the
stuff he was doing before that I don't like. So whatever,

(01:03:44):
it's real Yeah, real mixed bag there. Um. I would say, yeah,
I wish him well, um, generally, because I wish generally
everybody well. Yeah, compassion. I wish that his daughter would
not no longer have any say over his health care
because she seems bad at it. Yeah, she's very clearly
like damaging to him. Yeah, and not her feminine chaos

(01:04:09):
has shared his order exactly. He gave, he gave, he
gave her his order, and she she brought chaos to him, chaotic,
not helpful hands that he's in right now. Um. But
also and then yeah, it's um, he's not doing the thing.
I hope. Part of me is like if he stops
doing if he gets better, maybe maybe he'll stop doing

(01:04:30):
this stuff. Yeah, after getting better, I don't know. Um,
I do think he'll I do think like, yeah, he's
probably gonna buy that church still yeah yeah, and he'll
be the be the church guy. Um. I just want
him to write a novel so we can all see
the things that he really believes without the offsite he's

(01:04:51):
getting language. Yeah, let's let's have him write a novel
like every public figure should be forced to do. Yes, exactly,
So you got anything to plug Cody? Um? Uh mapsive
meaning um, okay, I I do. I would like to
promote the chaos dragon, which is another word for women,

(01:05:12):
my right fellows. Um no, um, you can find me
on Twitter. Um, Sophi's shaking her head. But I was
doing a Peterson bit. I should have done the voice.
I'm sorry. Um. You can find me on Twitter, on
Dr Mr Courdy and on the other socials. I got
a show called some More News on YouTube and the
podcast called even More News. I also co host with

(01:05:34):
Robert and my other cost Katie Stole Worst You're Ever
on my radio. And I also would like to promote
the first episode of this Listen to the first episode
before you listen to this one over. Now that's kind
of an extremist point, but okay, Cody, you go off. UM,
I think you should listen to whatever in whatever order.

(01:05:58):
In fact, just randomly quea random audio from the entire
human history of recording things and never know what you're
going to listen to. That's the best way chaotic womanly energy.
There such a visionary robber and I just don't know.
Thank you. I hope you start some sort of like
organization where people can follow your every word on question. Yeah,

(01:06:21):
you know, it'll be great and we'll um, you know,
we'll get raytheon on the phone and I do you
have them on speed dial at this point because they call? Yeah. Yeah,
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know you all probably agree with this. It's not very
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(01:07:05):
a savings. Yes, go to raytheon dot com slash bTB
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That means they're affordable. Now ridiculous, really makes it really

(01:07:30):
really gonna really gonna make as is the episode over,
I'm very tired. Great job, guys, You guys are amazing