Part Two: The Twilight Zone Movie

Robert is joined again by Caitlin Durante to continue to discuss The Twilight Zone Movie.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
M hey everybody. Robert Evans here and for the last
two years, Behind the Bastards listeners have funded the Portland
Diaper Bank, which provides diapers for low income families. Uh.
Last year y'all raised more than twenty one dollars, which
was able to purchase one point one million diapers for
children and families in need in one um. And this

(00:23):
year we're trying to get two dollars raised for the
Portland Diaper Bank, which is going to allow us to
help even more kids. So um, if you want to help,
you can go to bTB fundraiser for pd X Diaper
Bank at go fund me. Just type and go fund
me b TB Fundraiser for PDX Diaper Bank. Again, that's
go fund Me bTB Fundraiser for PDX Diaper Bank, or

(00:46):
find the link in the show notes. Thank you all.
Uh We're back, we are. This is Behind the Bastards
a podcast posted by you Evans Coma, Robert and our
guests Todays Durante Comma Caitlin, it's me. I'm back hot

(01:09):
Dog show. Enough. Um so, how how are we doing? Caitlin?
I am doing all right, learning a lot about Max.
No not I know it's hard not to write, it's
difficult not to He's just in my brain more than

(01:32):
John Landis. But learning a lot about John Landis. And uh, also,
I uh went to John Landis's IMDb because earlier I
was like, I couldn't name a single John Landis movie,
has he even made anything? And then turns out so
many movies that I have seen. He's an incredibly influential director.

(01:54):
Actually turns out he's done some stuff good for him. Yeah,
like Isis You gotta give him credit for a couple
of things, for being active in the pursuit of their goals.
And also, John Landis famously conquered a sizeable chunk of

(02:17):
northern Syria. Don't talk about that as much, Robert task
at hand that I'm always working on the task at hand,
which in this case is talking about John landis Is
Twilight Zone movies. So the climax of landis Is segment
of the Twilight Zone movie was notably the only really

(02:37):
big action set piece of the movie. Right, there's not
any other like war scenes or really like even all
that action e scenes. Right, Like there's some cool ship
especially in Joe Dante's bit, but like this is the
this is the only thing with like big explosions and
shut and stuff. So one Slate article I found alleges

(02:58):
that it was quote an excuse for director John Landis
to capture immense explosions on film. Um. There have been
allegations that the pyrotechnics that he was ordering people to
use were illegally large. Um. I can't speak to that,
but I found nothing that makes me doubt the basic analysis,
which is that John Landis had not gotten to direct
a war movie yet and he kind of used this

(03:19):
as an excuse to do a big, gritty war movie.
This is a feature film because it's one of four,
it's like a thirty minute chunk of the feature film
basically less really, I think probably more like twenty. Um. Yeah,
it's weird that he got so obsessed with like making
a Vietnam scene that was like brutally accurate in the

(03:42):
middle of this Twilight Zone movie. Um, it's kind of
a baffling call. Um. So yeah. The dude that he
has flying the helicopter in this critical scene is the
incredibly named Dorsey Wingo. Uh. And Dorsey is a Vietnam
veteran who had flown choppers in combat. Right so he's
you would think, pretty qualified for this very experienced pilot,

(04:04):
but he was really new to making movies, and during
rehearsals he was deeply rattled by how close the explosions
were getting to his aircraft. And again, this is a
guy who's been in combat in a helicopter who was
scared by how close the explosions are to his helicopter. Yeah. Yeah,
And again, if you are directing a movie with a

(04:25):
helicopter getting shot at and your combat veteran pilot is like, hey,
this seems dangerous, you might be like, perhaps we're making
a mistake. Because this is a movie and not the
Vietnam War, things may be going a bit far um.
John Landis does not have this moment of realization, absolutely not.

(04:46):
So in normal circumstances, Window probably would have said something
about the fact that he was deeply frightened by how
the explosions were getting close to his helicopter. But he's
really new to movies, right. He had been working with
helicopters after Vietnam for years, but he hadn't been in film.
This is kind of like his first chance that like
becoming a Hollywood stunt pilot. And again, doesn't want to

(05:09):
upset John Landis and get blacklisted. So Wingo, you know,
since he can't, he doesn't feel like he can safely
go to John Landis. He goes with his concerns to
the unit production manager, a guy named Dan Allingham, and
he tells Dan that the pyrotechnics are way too close
to the aircraft. Allingham agrees, and he says, hey, obviously
like safety first, right, Like we'll we'll change things to

(05:31):
make it safer. I'll go to John and I'll tell
him we need to make some alterations. So Allingham uh
later tells Wingo and the camera operator Roger Smith, who
also complained that everything's fine. He spoke to Landis and
during the next scene, they're just going to be flying
over the water filming thick in the kids, like they're
not going to have actors on the ground alongside explosions,

(05:53):
like they'll He's worked it out with Landis. But then
later that same day, when John Landis walks past Wingo
and another crew member discussing how terrifying, lee hot and
close the fireballs had been during the last time they'd
filmed the scene, Landis smiled and told them you ain't
seen nothing yet. So Landis is well aware of how

(06:13):
dangerous this scene was, but he wants this shot. He
has a very specific vision for how the SHOT's going
to go, so he has associate producer George Folsey, who's
his number two man, basically go to the parents of
the children on set and warn them. So you know,
they have explosions on this set, And if you have
explosions on a film set, you have to have like
a firefighter dude, right who's like your safety guy. And

(06:36):
in this case, the guy who's the firefighter dude has
also worked in like child protective services adjacent stuff in
the past, so Landis knows, oh shit, if this guy
finds out that we have a six and a seven
year old illegally working at night with explosions, he's going
to stop it right like, like as he rightly should.

(06:58):
So he has George Folsy go to the parents of
these kids and tell them, quote, if the fireman approach you,
please tell them that you are not working for us,
Say you are my friend, you are here to help me.
Don't tell them anything about the money or the children working. Now,
I'm not going to spend a lot of time focusing

(07:19):
on things the parents did wrong because spoilers, this ends
in tragedy. But I will say, as a parent, if
that conversation has had with you on the set of
a film, time to time to get out, time to
get time to get rolling right along, that you know
it sounds like impending doom is right around the corner.

(07:41):
I will say. Only one of the parents has is
a fluent English speaker, so the other parent um doesn't
understand what Folsy is saying. So Folsey gets an Asian
friend who is on the cast to repeat it to
her in Vietnames, But the parent is Chinese, so so

(08:07):
Folsi's Vietnamese friend just winds up repeating the message slowly
in English. So at least one of the parents probably
doesn't fully understand like what Folsy is doing here, right um,
and how fucked up things are now, as you might
have begun to expect. By this point, neither Landis or
Folsy had done a very good job of letting either

(08:28):
set of parents know how dangerous the scene was going
to be. Right They were not adequately informed of the risks.
I mean, honestly, the pilot was not adequately like finds
out how dangerous this is when they're doing the test
passes in terms of exploding next to him, right, Um,
I'm gonna quote from the book outrageous Conduct again. In
these conversations, Folsey would summarize the final scene, mentioning that

(08:51):
there would be explosives, but xsuring the parents that the
explosives would be nowhere near the children. Folsey was clearly
nervous about the illegal hiring. He had always been an honest,
decent person, and he did not feel comfortable breaking the law.
Another secretary in the office, Cynthia and I, remembers Folsey
coming out of one meeting with Landis and production manager
Dan Allingham. They had been discussing the hiring of the children,

(09:11):
and as he left the office, Folsey joked nervously, will
probably all be thrown in jail for this. Schuman claims
that she asked Folsey at one point what the penalty
was for working children without permits. As she recalled the
conversation later, Folsy applied to her a slap on the
wrist and a little fine. Unless they find out about
the explosives, then they'll throw my butt in jail. So

(09:31):
Landis and Folsy and Allingham are all very aware that
they are like committing a serious crime here right now
on the night of July two. Vic Morrow, who's again
playing like the male lead in this right, he's supposed
to be rescuing these kids from the this This helicopter,
Um and both children, Renee and Micah were placed in

(09:52):
position at Indian Dunes Park for like a test run
of the scene. Uh Indian Dunes is where at this
point a ton of Vietnam More movies had been filmed.
Here's how a Rolling Stone article at the time describe
the geography of this area. The park is actually a
private property enclosed by steep chaparral covered cliffs. At the
base of one of those cliffs, on the south shore
of the Santa Clara River, a shallow, slow moving stream

(10:14):
that irrigates orange and avocado grows. A few miles to
the west, a Vietnamese village had been assembled out of
bamboo poles, palm thatch and cardboard. Right, so that's kind
of the scene. They're gonna blow this village up. Right
as the kids and in Vic Morrow are like standing
in like this this stream with the helicopter strafening them,
the whole village is supposed to explode, right so both

(10:35):
kids are nervous because explosions are scary too small children
as our helicopters, and to adults, yeah anybody. Vic Morrow,
being a nice guy, makes a bunch of funny faces
to try and relax them, and he's so successful at
this that the kids start laughing hard enough that they
can't stop when Landis wants to start filming, so he
has to halt the scene and yell at the kids

(10:56):
to stop laughing. The shooting goes well this night because
again there's not explosions, um and then the parents are
given five dollars each and envelopes under the table and
told to bring their kids back the next night. July
nineteen two is the night that they are set to
film the final scene of Vic Morrow rescuing both kids

(11:19):
by carrying them across the river while a US helicopter attacks.
He was supposed to say, I'll keep you safe, kids,
I swear to God, as the village explodes behind them.
As the parents of both children sit watching the final
scene unfold, Renee's mother asks is it dangerous and Folsey
says no, not dangerous, just a loud noise. At two

(11:41):
twenty am, John Landis calls action. He yells fire, fire, fire,
as two machine gunners pump blank rounds into the river.
James Camomile, the pyrotechnician, begins setting off a series of explosions.
It is immediately obvious that these are even larger and
closer to the helicopter than the ones that had previously
frightened the pilot. And as the pilot is zooming in

(12:04):
over these explosions with the kids underneath them, Landis starts
yelling at him, screaming over the mic, lower, get lower.
Mikeah Lee's father, Daniel, who was a Vietnam War veteran,
says that the blasts reminded him of real rocket detonations. Quote.
I was so horrified. I was screaming the second blast,
I fell down on the ground. I cried God. I

(12:26):
was so fearful, and I knew danger. It was not
something made up, but real danger. So Landis just keeps
telling the helicopter to get closer. Two of the explosions
detonate very like basically right on the chopper, close enough
that they have an effect, not unlike anti aircraft fire.
The National Transportation Safety Board, in their analysis, would later

(12:49):
conclude quote the probable cause of The accident was the
detonation of debris laden high temperature special effects explosions too
near a low flying helicopter, leading to foreign object damn
to one rotor blade and de lamination due to heat
to the other rotor blade, the separation of the helicopter's
tail rotor assembly, and the uncontrolled descent of the helicopter.

(13:10):
The proximity of the helicopter to the special effects explosions
was due to the failure to establish direct communications and
coordination between the pilot who was in command of the
helicopter operation, and the film director who was in charge
of the filming operation. So the helicopter goes down right,
the explosions damage it, and it crashes. Now, Landis had

(13:32):
wanted the explosions to be close to the helicopter, and
he had wanted that helicopter hovering right over the heads
of Vic and the children for the same reason. He
wanted the scene to look intense and frightening. His vision
for the movie now led to a calamity. While roughly
a hundred people watched, the helicopter plunged into the river,
The right skid crushed six year old Renee, killing her instantly.

(13:55):
The craft then toppled over on its side, cutting Vic
Morrow and the seven year old Mica in half. There's
footage on this, you can find it on YouTube. It's
not gory, but you see the chopper because the water
kind of covers it. You see the chopper hit them.
It's pretty fucking terrifying. Like je, if you want to

(14:20):
have knowledge of what that looks like, you can see it.
I don't. Yeah, Um, but I mean okay, So when
I said horses maybe died or maybe people, it was
it was the people and it was um, two of
which were young young children. Yeah, two of which together

(14:42):
did not add up to fourteen years of age. Oh horrible. Yeah,
this is it's pretty bad, horrible yeah. Um. And also
all there's six people in the helicopter, right, because there's
folks filming too. They're all hurt, right, none of them die, thankfully,
but they're all injured. Um, because helicopter crashes aren't great

(15:03):
for your health. So this is about the worst thing
you could watch happen as a parent. Yeah, It's not
not a lot that I could imagine being higher on
that list. Um. So there's obviously in the immediate aftermath
of the crash, their silence, right as everyone kind of

(15:23):
like grapples with what has happened, and then Renee's mother
begins to scream. John Landis, who, being the guy that
John Landis is, still feels a need to act as
if he's in control of the situation, says, that's a rap.
Are you kidding me? It's it's now. It's one of

(15:44):
those things. He goes on to say, like, leave your
equipment where it is. Everyone go home, please, everyone go home?
Like right, obviously someone needs to announce that, like filming
is over. I guess I don't know, someone needs doing
out something for what. I don't think the right thing
to say is that's a rap. I just don't. I
really don't think that's the right thing to say after

(16:06):
you have gotten two children and a stunt man killed killed.
Not the right thing to say at all. Oh my god,
John Landis m M. But on the other hand, we
got animal House out of his career, so who can

(16:27):
say it was worth it? And then okay, so then
I he goes on to direct, um, what did is sorry,
I have a bunch of a bunch of will talk
about some of the ship. He goes on to direct

(16:48):
just a little bit. But you know what we're going
to talk about right now, Caitlin, Is is it products
and services? Yeah? And the products and services in this podcast, Caitlin,
not once have they been involved in a fatal helicopter accident.
I'm so glad. That's that's the absolute guarantee we make, um,

(17:09):
unless corporation winds up, uh ever, supporting us, in which
case they've been responsible for a lot of deadly helicopter accidents. Um.
But that's the problem will cross when we finally get
that big sponsorship. But I've always thought we're more of
a podcast, right Sophie. I find you to be so annoying. Well,

(17:36):
you know what else is annoying? Not having the great taste?
M m? Are you really doing an adverb? That's good
right now? Like they don't haven't done anything bad, because
that's why I said the great taste of unlike the

(17:57):
terrible helicopter crashy taste of products. So they're Sophie Robert
stilling for an ad break. It sure is. We're back, Caitlin.
How are we doing? I'm doing good? Um? Okay, So

(18:18):
after this he directs the Thriller music video. She sure
does direct the thriller music video. Um, what are the
things I'm familiar with? Three Amigos he directs, which is
a movie. Another unpopular opinion that I have is that
that movie sucks. I hate hate. There's like twenty good

(18:41):
minutes in that whole movie, and there's a lot of
ship in between. Do not like it? Um Coming to America? UM,
trade right before or at least it's released before Twilight
Zone movie one of the fucking um. One of the
write ups about this disaster, I found, like, really ships

(19:01):
on Coming to America? I think just because it's like
the first big hit Land has had after the accident, which,
like I don't get like, I think it's my recollection
was Coming to America is perfectly fine movie? One of
the better Eddie Murphy movies. UM. I tend to agree. Yeah,
except for Shrek and of course three, and of course

(19:24):
Shrek and of course Shrek four. Yeah. How many Shreks
did we wind up getting? There are four and a fifth?
One is I think past development. I think it's soon. Well,
this this is the best chance we've had in years
of getting another Austin Powers movie. Wait, Shrek five, hang on,

(19:46):
this is we just have to pause because this is important.
Shrek five. Uh oh. According to fandom, Shruck five might
be released on September two. Uh it sounds like really
good information that is definitely probably correct. Anyway, we can

(20:11):
move away from Shrek. I guess I mean no, um
this the I actually plan to just talk about the
Shrek movie, which has a pretty titanic body count. Um,
although that's primarily because in order to get some of
the shots they needed, they had to back a brutal
civil war in Ecuador. But you know the Shrek franchise, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

(20:36):
it's the only way you could get that realistically rendered
of a donkey. Um. So you know, John Landis gets
two children and Vick Morrow horribly killed, um, really terrible
debts um. And you know this is gonna cause problems, right. Um.

(20:58):
Hollywood is pretty good at at smoothing some things under
the under the table, right, but this is this is
a problem, right, This is a big story. Yeah, children
cut in half by helicopters are gonna There's gonna be
some legal stuff that's gonna come out. Yeah a little bit.
So the wheels of justice, or what passes for the

(21:19):
wheels of justice start to churn up after this. The
first court cases that kind of get resolved at least
our lawsuits from the families of the children who get killed.
The Chin family file on August three, and name both
John Landis and Steven Spielberg. Cause again, Steve Spielberg is
producing this alongside John Landis, right, he is, he is

(21:39):
involved in this whole thing. We will talk some more
about the degree to which maybe he's culpable here, because
it's very murky. Right, he immediately leaves the country. Um,
we'll talk about that more in a second. Um as
does um. Oh god, what's her name? That Kathleen lady
who wound up running Marvel what sort? I don't know.

(22:02):
Let's sack. Let's sack. I don't care about that. Behind
the scenes people in movies. Kathleen Kennedy who was also
produce she also fucking books it, right, Like, both Spielberg
and Kathleen Kennedy are like, because you know, we should
probably not be around for this. I don't want to
get involved in. Um. So Yeah. The first court cases

(22:26):
that follow this our lawsuits from the families of the
Slane children. The Chin family files on August three, and
they name yeah, Lands and Spielberg, as well as uh
Folsy and Wingo. Um Folsey is the assist a producer
and Windows the pilot in their request for damages. Michael
Lees family file suit a year later. These all do
get settled out of court. Um. Now, one for an

(22:48):
example of kind of the crapulence of big studios, when
Warner Brothers is named in the Chin lawsuit, because right
there they have some culpability to their law firm argues
that the studio not be liable because quote, the risk,
if any risk there was, was knowingly assumed by the
decedent Renee shiny Chin, who was again six choking me

(23:13):
right now? Yeah, first off, the risk if any there was.
You can't have if any there wasn't there when three
people have been cut to pieces by helicopter rotors. Okay,
Like you can't say was there really a risk there
was a risk that everything about that sentence is wrong. Yeah,

(23:33):
it's unbelievably like it's a strong case that entertainment lawyers
should be boiled. Um. Yeah. So these civil lawsuits are
all eventually settled. We don't really know like what kind
of money the families get. I hope it's a lot.
Like you know, but we don't really know. But of

(23:56):
course that doesn't end kind of the legal stuff around this,
because three human beings have died gruesome deaths. Two of
them are children who have been hired illegally, So the
state of California needs to determine if there was any
criminal liability for the accident. District Attorney John Van de
Camp assigned prosecutor Gary Kesselman to the case, and an

(24:17):
l A p D. Sheriff's detective assisted the investigation. Found
the things that I have noted already. Um, they find
like Folsey saying, oh, I'll go to jail for this.
They find that, you know, the children have been illegally hired,
that this has been hidden from the fire safety officer.
So they they're like, well, there's enough here to convene
a grand jerry for fucking share um, which you know,

(24:38):
one of the rare times I'll be like, yeah, that
l A. Sheriff's deputy was more or less right. Um.
So they convene a grand jury. Um. And when you
convene a grand jury, that means that there's enough evidence
that there's something wrong that you're gonna bring the people
involved in front of a jury. And have them be questioned, right,

(24:58):
and then the jury is going to decide we indict,
which means like do we actually charge people with a crime? Right? Um?
So they Folsy winds up in front of the grand jury.
Um who he says that in front of the grand jury.
Folsey says, in retrospect, it would have been better to
shoot the helicopter and the actors at separate times, which, no, ship,

(25:18):
I'm glad you can see that, buddy. Yes, in retrospect,
it would have been better to not do the thing
that got three people killed. There was adequate technology at
the time that yeah, you can like superimposed two there
was together if you could, I mean, if you could
have explained the concept of a helicopter in there was

(25:39):
adequate technology for them to have said, no, this sounds
like a bad idea. Yeah, oh no, wonder everything is
c g I these days. As much as I love
a practical effect, if it puts anyone in danger, you
could have had a practical effect and like puppets like

(25:59):
there's what that Pieters have done scenes like this that
did not endanger human life, right, at least not children, right,
Like that one of the things that happening here is
that like, no one's getting charged or even like attempted
to be charged with um with um vic Morrow's death
because as questionable as some of the decisions made, he

(26:20):
was an adult who chose to be in a really
a situation he knew was dangerous. You know, UM's still wild.
I mean, they're still fucked up. But like these are children,
they cannot and honestly their parents can't consent to put
them in that danger. You're not allowed to do that
their children, and they're not given any of the information.

(26:42):
And children are famously uh, not very good at advocating
for themselves nor fully understanding. I mean, so much of
our society exists to stop people from doing things like
this to children. Um. This is why you can't put
them in coal mines anymore. So, UM, I'm gonna quote

(27:07):
for more on how this grand jury goes from Crime
Library quote. John Landis testified and blamed underlings for the tragedy.
He said that he had assumed Stewart and Wingo had
worked out the coordination of their jobs. He did not
make certain of it because I assumed if these men
are experts licensed by the government to do their jobs,
they've done their jobs. Kesselman pressed on as to why

(27:29):
he did not make sure they talked, because when you
get into a taxi, Landis replied, you assumed the driver
is not going to drive you off a bridge. It's
just assumptions. The guy is a licensed taxi driver. These
are experts. Later, the prosecutor began the final authority in
terms of camera, actor positions, helicopter or whatever on that
set is not mine. Land Is broken because if I
asked an actor, I said, would you please take your

(27:51):
hand and stick it at this garbage disposal? The actor
is going to say, of course not. So he's accepting
absolutely no accountability. No, no. The director should be the
ultimate authority on set, but also should have no responsibility
when things go wrong. Right, Oh my gosh. He as

(28:12):
you've said, was like, no, these these explosions need to
be closer. You ain't seen nothing yet, like he was
constantly despite many people protesting and saying this is not safe,
this is dangerous, this is going to lead to bad things.
He was like, but my vision realism. I must make

(28:36):
a perfectly accurate Vietnam War scene in this Twilight film
movie movie about a time traveling racist, embarrassing what a loser.
He sucks for sure. Um, he's he's definitely a thing
so bad, you know what. Poopy, That's what I'll say,

(28:58):
Caitlin to quote me, loftus p poo poo wow wow
powerful powerful to the award winning Jamie loftus p p poopoo.
Who I am feuding with just the hypocrisy of yeah,
being like, uh no one questioned me. The choice I'm

(29:20):
making is the best. I have ultimate power and control here,
and then when something goes wrong, well I did, I
don't know. I assumed it was. They didn't say anything.
If it was, it was the helicopter operator. Such a
fucking fucking putting explosions and there's next to him. Definitely

(29:41):
a case we made that the helicopter operator and the
pyrotechnician have some degree of culpability here. Right, I'm not
saying they don't because they are professionals, and the fact
that they could have suffered career consequences from complaining doesn't
mean they shouldn't have said something. Right. Um, But again,
the director is the dictat e of the film set.
He has absolute power. That is less the case now

(30:03):
because of this accident. We'll talk about that in a
little bit, but at this time he has absolute power.
The buck stopped with John Landis, or at least it
should have, right. Um. He was the motherfucker who was
making the calls here. Um. And it's kind of like
he keeps he compares it to a taxi driver and like, well, look,
it's not my fault if I hire a cab driver

(30:25):
any crashes. Like well, okay, but if you hire a
cab driver and then you force him at gunpoint to
do body shots while driving the cab and then he crashes,
you you are responsible for that car crash. Actually, um,
because he wouldn't have been drinking if you had not
been forcing him to do it. Um. Which is not

(30:45):
to say that it's wrong to force your cab driver
at gunpoint to drink. That's a that's a fun time.
Like I'm not party. It is a cool party time
and cab drivers love being forced to do shots. That's
the motto of this show. It is not threaten a
cab driver anyway. Um. It could be Sophie, allegedly, it

(31:09):
could be so Obviously A grand jury indicts the ship
out of John Landis Um, along with Folsey and Allingham.
They are charged with manslaughter in the deaths of Renee
and Mica. Again, they're not being charged for Vic Morrow's death.
The charges are based on the fact that the deaths
had occurred during the commission of an inherently dangerous, unlawful act,

(31:30):
and that unlawful act was the illegal hiring of children. Right,
So the fact that they're getting charged with manslaughter, that
manslaughter charge relies entirely on the fact that those children
were legally being employed. Right, Does that make sense? That's
why Morow that no one's getting charged for Morrow's It
makes sense because I understand what you're saying, But it
also doesn't make sense because it should just be illegal

(31:51):
to Yes, I'm not trying to everything that happened on
this set. You know, the law is the law. It
has nothing to do with mora. I'm trying to explain, like,
this is legally what's going on. Right. Um So, again,
the crime is not just that they got people killed.
It's that those people, the people they got killed, could

(32:11):
not legally have been on that set when they got killed.
That's what makes it not just an accident, but out
it adds like the criminal responsibility. Um So, Kesselman decides
not to try and get an indictment against these guys
for the illegal hiring of the children itself or having
them work past curfew. Um. These would have been slam
dunk convictions. Obviously they were blatantly guilty. Um. But both

(32:35):
would have had like ten day maximum jail sentences. Um,
because they're more like yeah, because it should like illegally
having kids work at night and stuff isn't like a
serious crime on its own. Um, it's not like, yeah,
it's not like hard time or whatever. And Kesselman, I'm
not gonna like make a stance on whether he made
the right call or not. The reason he doesn't go

(32:56):
for these slam dunk convictions alongside manslaughter is he's worried
that if the grand jury has the chance to like
indict these guys on something easy that's lighter than manslaughter,
that they'll go with the easy charges and they won't
go for manslaughter. Again, it's like the prosecutor in this
he's he's you're always playing kind of a game with

(33:17):
the jury here. I'm not a law expert. I'm not
going to give an opinion on whether or not this
is a good call. But this is the call that
he makes right. Um. So the case churns, churns forward.
And while this is happening, obviously the dead people are
having their funerals because that's what you do when people
get killed. Um. In one of the most unfucking hinged

(33:37):
moments in Hollywood history, John Landis decides to attend all
three ceremonies, all three funerals. Yep. Is he super apologetic?
Now there was some speculation but that he was advised
too much. Did he go in he was super apologetic? No, no, Sophie,

(34:00):
that's a fun question. Absolutely not. But he does do
the opposite of that. Um. There is speculation that his
lawyers advise him to not just show up, but to
speak at the funerals in order to seem deeply hurt
by what has happened. Um. Now, in all cases, the
families beg him not to come. Right, like nobody wants,
John land has at these fucking funerals. You know, not

(34:25):
only does he come, but he makes a speech at
least at Vic Morrow's funeral. And I'm gonna quote now
from a write up by Dick Peabuddy, who's one of
Morrow's friends. They'd work together in a bunch of stuff
before um, and he's a close enough friend that Peabuddy
winds up as a pallbearer at more Morrow's funerals. So
this is this is Dick Peabuddy's recollection of the funeral.

(34:45):
I rode with them, them being Morrow's family, to the funeral,
and sat with them in the section of the chapel
reserved for family. Moments after we arrived, an audible shock
wave of reaction from Vick's friends and co workers who
come to pay their respects, grabbed my attention. A thin,
bearded man was coming down the aisle, seemingly unable to
walk without assistance. He was supported by a woman and

(35:06):
another man, Miss John Landis and George Folsey Jr. The
production manager of the Twilight Zone movie. The bearded staggerer
was Twilight Zone director John Landis. His stooges helped him
to the lectern, and he began a rambling eulogy, unplanned, unrequested, unwanted,
and shocking to Vick's family and friends. His mere presence
at the funeral was offensive to them. He did this,

(35:28):
presumably on the advice of his attorney. The most obnoxious
remark he made, among many, was that he was proud
to have directed Vic and what Vic himself considered the
best performance of his career. Vic's girlfriend and his ex wife, Barbara,
both said that Vic thought the movie was a piece
of ship and he was ashamed to be connected to it.
So I cannot confirm whether or not John Landis was

(35:50):
telling the truth or or Dick pebody was telling the
truth about how Vic felt about this movie. It is
worth noting that multiple other accounts back up Dick's retelling
of events. In fact, some of them sound worse. According
to several accounts, Here was the full text of what
land has said. Tragedy can strike in an instant, but
film is immortal. Vic libs forever. Just before the last take,

(36:12):
Vic took me aside to thank me for the opportunity
to play this role. Now, Caitlin, if you had to
calculate in a lab the worst eulogy to give after
getting three people killed in a helicopter accident, could you
do better than this? I think he absolutely nailed giving

(36:35):
the worst eulogy imaginable, like the balls number one to
get up and speak and say anything, but I'm sorry
and my life means nothing now, um Like he's one
thing to get up and say, at least he was
the best thing he ever did. My movie was his
best moment. Unbelievable. The I I cannot even begin to

(37:02):
comprehend the size of the ego. You have to have
to do something like that. We need to have a
law wherein if like a certain number of people vote
that a situation is deserving of a motherfucker getting hit
in the face with a brick, then it's legal to
hit them in the face with a brick. And I

(37:23):
think this would be my yardstick, right like if I'm
arguing the Supreme Court, like what is the bricking, Like,
what is like the threshold for a bricking? Like right here,
somebody should have hit John Landis in the face with
a brick. That would have been fine. Yeah, I mean
it was according to it seems fine that he was.

(37:45):
He had the most dangerous film set. Unbelievable. Like so,
I think it's also worth noting at this point, as
we have a couple of times, sometimes accidentally, which is
usually how people refer to this dude, that John Landis
has a on Max Landis, who we will discuss briefly
at the end. Now, Max directed the film Chronicle and

(38:06):
most infamously the Will Smith flop Bright. Since he was
pretty active online at one point big Reddit guy Max Landis,
people on Reddit would often like troll him by bringing
up the fact that his dad got three people killed,
and Max blew up at them at one point. In
a fairly famous post among Max Landis Nowher's and one

(38:26):
of the things he stated was that it's really fucked
up for people to accuse his dad of having killed
one of his best friends. Now that's bullshit. I have
come across no evidence anywhere that Vic Morrow and John
Landis were close. Most accounts seemed to show that Mora
was somewhat scared by the director and certainly worried about
what upsetting him might do for his career. A friend

(38:48):
I think would be comfortable telling a friend, Hey, I
am worried about the explosions that you were putting next
to me. Right um now, I don't. I actually don't
think I'm not one to go to bad for Max Landis.
I don't think Max Landis is lying here. I think
this is what John Landis had to tell his son
in order to like try and preserve like some sort
of I don't know what tone to use here, but

(39:10):
like my guess is that is the lie that John
Landis told Max Righte that like again I were great friends,
and like he understood the risks and you know, it
was just a tragic whatever. That's my guess here. So
for the other funerals and for what happened at them,
I'm going to turn again to that right up by
Crime Library quote. At Renee chins funeral, a gray faced

(39:31):
John Landis, being held up by his wife and friend
showed up to pay his respects. The child's relatives fixed cold,
accusing stairs at the director, except for Renee's mother, who
was sobbing. Landis also went to Micha Lee's funeral, the
boys choir to which Mica had belonged, saying his favorite him,
Jesus loves all the children of the world. There is

(39:51):
no question that the accident traumatized the director for several
weeks after it, he was heavily medicated. At one point
he called a confidante and wondered if he would ever
be able to ask anyone to take even the simplest direction.
So I will admit, first off, when I wrote this,
I I missed understood that as John Landis asking them
to sing that him. I think they're saying that that

(40:11):
was Mike's favorite him, So I will delete my objection
there um. But like it's this, he's clearly doing a
bit right. Every funeral he has the same people carry
him in. He's acting right like he is. He's putting
on a show for the court primarily and for his
own future career to like seem less like a monster here.

(40:35):
But it's the same show every time, like being carried
in because you can can't and among other things, it's
just basic ethics, right, really minimal human decency. If you
are going to a funeral and it is someone you
knew that died, but not like someone super close in

(40:57):
relation to you, you do not act more distraught than
that person's parents or children or loved ones, right, Because
it's about them, right, It's not about you. If it's
just like someone you knew, where it's like your friend's
mom or something, you don't go there and like collapse
because it's about them, and that's putting more ship on them, right,
Like that's kind of fucked up to do, you know,

(41:20):
don't act more devastated, You don't, certainly, as the director
of a film that these kids you've known for two days.
Are and you don't act more distraught than their fucking parents,
you know, And you don't draw attention to yourself by
giving like you don't do you don't. First of all,
you don't go, John, don't. You shouldn't. Obviously you shouldn't go.

(41:41):
You shouldn't go to these these fears if you do
feel some need because you actually are, are written with
legitimate guilt, which he clearly is not. Um, you slink in,
you stand in the back, You don't draw any attention
to yourself, and then you bail apiece out even that's questionable,

(42:04):
but like, absolutely don't do this. Absolutely don't do any
of the things that he did. What a performative piece
of shit. Now, the good news, Caitlin, and I know
you're concerned about this, is that killing three people and
being actively involved in a manslaughter trial does not hurt
his career, does not hurt his career. Um, while the

(42:27):
case unfolds, which takes like three years, he directs four
films and takes on a number again, as we've talked
about Hi, he directs the thriller video like Yeah, doesn't
get a lot more high profile than that. Probably still
like the biggest music video ever made in terms of
it's like cultural impact. He also directs the Eddie Murphy
hit Coming to America, which is somewhat less influential. Now

(42:49):
there's a fun story with Eddie Murphy and and John
Landis that we're going to tell him a bit. But first,
you know what won't show up to the funerals of
its victims and make it about them, these products and
our Services Corporation sher won't. We has labor activists executed
in Latin America. They don't show up at those funerals.

(43:11):
Do They bomb them? Sometimes allegedly allegedly, but they don't
show up. Here's ads We're back. Uh. So Eddie Murphy
and John Landis were friends at one point, right, Uh,

(43:34):
they've been in some stuff together. Um, you know, uh
and and and they're good enough friends that in the
wake of this tragedy, Um, Eddie goes to Paramount because
he you know, Coming to America is like a script
that comes to him first. Right, I'm not going to
get into the weeds of like how it gets made,
but right, he's he's wanting to make this movie, and
he makes Paramount hire John Landis and give him a

(43:57):
million dollars and final editing rights on the film, um,
which is more than they want to spend. And he
does it because Landis is his friend and Eddie Murphy
wants to give his friend to win. Now, I'm not
saying Eddie's not a questionable dude, because this is a
questionable moral decision, but it's being a good friend. You
can't deny that, you know, um, which is not being

(44:17):
a good person. But it's at least Eddie. Eddie is
a guy who will go to bat for his friends.
This does show that. Um. So what's funny about this
is that Eddie Murphy really does John Landis a solid
and then John Landis treats him like utter ship the
entire time they're making this movie. Is just a nightmarish

(44:38):
douche bag to this guy who is like saving his career.
It's a really weird call. Eddie Murphy talks about this
in a Playboy interview, and I'm gonna read an exerpt
from that now and again for an idea of the
tone of this. This is a Playboy interview, so Murphy
is gonna be saying some questionable things later on after
he got the job he brought along an attitude. He

(44:58):
came in with this, I'm a direc actors ship. I
was thinking, wait a second, I fucking hired you, and
now you're running around going you have to remember I'm
the boss, I'm the director. One of his favorite things
was to tell me when I worked with Michael Jackson,
everyone was afraid of Michael, but I'm the only one
who would tell Michael fuck you. And I'm not afraid
to tell you fuck you. And sure enough he was
always telling me fuck you, Eddie. Everyone at Paramount is

(45:20):
afraid of you. So that's weird. And also again, like
you really want to be the dictator of the movie
when nobody's gotten killed. Um, but suddenly it's a it's
a team project when three people die. Huh, that's fun.
Um yeah. Um. So I'm not gonna get two into
the weeds on this interview, but it has some incredible

(45:41):
lines from Eddie Murphy that really adds some context to
the filming of a classic comedy quote. What first put
a bad taste in my mouth about him was when
after he hired co stars Shari Headley and all these
other people, I said, I wanted to take everybody to dinner.
I didn't know anybody, but Landis grabbed Headley and said,
you stay away from Eddie. Don't go hear him, because
he's gonna fuck you and ruin my movie. He just

(46:02):
wants your pussy. I'm thinking, wait, oh no, this has
nothing to do with being a fucking director. He's a
control freak. Just assuming that I was trying to get
the pussy is one thing. Even and even if I
was trying to get the pussy, for him to try
to stop me getting it because he was directing the movie,
He's got a lot of nerve. Plus, it wasn't even
about pussy. So again, Murphy right, like, you know, it

(46:27):
wasn't even a plus, it wasn't even about I do
kind of suspect Eddie Murphy planned on hitting on her,
but it's still not. It's still fucked up for John
Landis to just say that, like, yeah, he seems what
a power hungry Yeah, fucking he's a ship. Now this

(46:50):
all culminates like the only like eventually Eddie just like
threatens to beat the ship out of him and things
calmed down. But they have not talked since. Like Eddie
Murphy has hated John Us ever, since um, and we'll
talk about him at the drop of a hat. Anyway, Um,
back to the trial. So, being a giant piece of ship,
Landis and his lawyers opted for a strategy in which

(47:11):
the above the line people blamed everything on the below
the line people. Now in Hollywood pire lance, above the
line workers are actors, producers, directors. That there's the big names, right,
the actual technical people, the crew folks, pilots, stuntman, pyrotechnicians,
all that stuff there below the line. So Landis, because

(47:33):
again a bunch of above and below the line people
have gotten charged here with manslaughter, Landis wants to blame
the folks responsible for pyrotechnics and the pilot um for
everything that's happened. That's his plan to throw his people
under the fucking bus. Also, no wonder there's like a
director get like becomes one of these just like power

(47:56):
hungry maniacs, because just just like language like that, Like
if you come to a set and you see that
there's a hierarchy like that and then you realize you're
at the you're at the top of it. I mean,
I guess, I mean it just speaks to how shitty
a person is. Inherently if they just are in that situation,

(48:20):
they're like, oh, I'm above all these people. Look at
all these below people there are below me, and look
at how below they are, and I can exploit them
and manipulate them, and also the whole system because like
a lot of these lower people who get charged don't
work again, or at least not for years. Right, And
this doesn't have that problem because you can write below

(48:43):
the line. People have a stink to them because three
people died. Um. But Landis makes money, so there's no
real consequences for him career wise. I hate it. So
for an example of how utterly crapulent these defense tactics were,
I'm gonna quote again from Crime Library Ry quote Braun.

(49:03):
His defense attorney, called Landis an artist and praised his
Twilight Zone segment as a cinematographic statement against racism and bigotry.
He also gave a strangely cynical reason for the casting
of the children. Children are classically used in films other
than his principles. He opined in order to evoke emotion
in an audience, because adults generally don't like one another,
but everyone likes children. Kesselman called Shayan Hui Chen to

(49:27):
the stand. Renee's mother spoke through an interpreter. She cried
as she talked about watching her daughter die. So this
is like a nasty, nasty case. Um. The jury eventually
finds Landis and his fellow defendants not guilty of manslaughter.
A lot of it is like the same kind of
ship you hear in like the O. J. Simpson trial,
Like they're picking apart. Like someone will say, well, I

(49:48):
heard them say we're going to get arrested for doing this,
and then someone say, like, well, who said it? When
did you hear it? Like as possible they like, it's
it's all about like creating whatever doubt you can. There's
a lot of theories as to why the jury acquits them.
People will argue it's because Landis was famous or whatever.
Um uh, I don't know. Um, it's worth noting like

(50:11):
a master manipulator. So yeah, and he's got a lot
of money to put in, and so does the studio.
The studio puts a lot of money into his defense.
The Monday after he's acquitted, UM, John Landis appears on
Good Morning America to celebrate. He invites all twelve members
of the jury to attend to the premiere of Coming
to America, which they do so fun fact about Coming

(50:34):
to America if you like that film, that is wild.
Now there are some like minor fines and some censure
from like industry organizations and ship after the trial, but
John's career again just plows forward. Um. The main personal
consequence he faced, aside from his son getting dragged on Reddit,

(50:55):
was the end of his friendship with Steven Spielberg, who
again bounces for a while to be and they they
based at the studio because like, there's initially an attempt
to get him to like testify because he was the
producer on this movie too, and the studio is basically
like he's too important to testify, and the court's like okay, wow, okay.

(51:16):
I think the same thing basically happens with Kathleen as well.
So before you think too positively of Stephen, it is
worth noting again he is the producer of this movie
as well. He is also responsible for the safety of
the actors in this film UM, and for insuring things
like the illegal hiring of child actors for an explosive
helicopter scene do not occur. There are allegations that Spielberg

(51:37):
was on set that night. UM. I have not found
any substantiation of them, and those allegations are printed by
people who were who talked to folks who were on set.
I haven't heard them directly from people who were on set. Um.
Spielberg has claimed that the interviews in interviews that the
tragedy made me grow a little, which is a weird
thing to say. Uh. In the wake of the disaster,

(51:59):
he issued a statement, I was never at the Indian
Dunes location of Twilight Zone on the night of the accident,
or at any other time. Now. To follow up to that,
I'm gonna quote again from the book Outrageous Conduct. That
too sentence letter marked the complete extent of spielberg sworn
statements on the Twilight Zone case. Joe Dante, who directed
a segment that had nothing to do with the Landis episode,

(52:21):
had to give a deposition in one of the civil cases. Spielberg,
who was the producer of the entire movie, did not
do even that much. Nevertheless, Tom Bud's argues that there
was no compelling reason to interrogate Spielberg. There is no
indication that Spielberg even knew anything about the hiring of
the children. So I don't know. You can feel however
you want about Spielberg in this he never talks to

(52:43):
Landis again, like they're they're they're not buds anymore. I
don't know how much like blame to throw his way.
A number of other directors do come out and like
basically say, fucking John Landis is a murderer. After this,
like there are some directors who like really go to
the mat to condemn him. In fact, I actually pull
a couple of those up. Um Brian de Palma um

(53:05):
is one. He's a guy who directed Carry Right and
the Untouchables said quote, I don't think Landis was railroaded.
It's difficult to imagine putting all those elements in one place. Helicopters, explosions, children,
night shooting, and not treading a very thin line. That's
a combination you would try to steer clear of. Helicopters
by themselves are very dangerous, even with very experienced stunt people,

(53:25):
and as soon as you have inexperienced people in a set,
you are adding to the danger. Landis's actions were definitely excessive.
When asked why so many directors had rallied behind Landis
to Palma answered, I have no idea. Maybe they're afraid
of being sued. Um, So that's Brian cool. James L. Brooks,
who directed Terms of Endearments, also uh issued a statement

(53:49):
if you hire children illegally, pay them under the table
and then they get killed, that sounds like criminal negligence
to me. So there are some people in Hollywood were like,
they fucking murdered those kids for them. Um. But stating notably,
although he doesn't talk to Landis, Spielberg doesn't say shit,
Um okay, Steve, Yeah, that could have done a little

(54:12):
better there, Stevie. Um, I don't. It seems unlikely he
was on set. I don't think he directly had anything
to do with this, although you could argue that, like
you should have been aware of what was happening on
this set that you were helping to produce, you know.
In theory, yeah, yeah, I mean it depends on the
kind of type of producer and stuff, like some some
of them don't step foot on set. Ever, this is

(54:35):
not that case, right because they are also directing segments
of this. But yeah. In the years since the tragedy,
John Landez has again had a great career. He's also
signed onto a petition in favor of child molesting director
Roman Polanski. Um. Okay, not surprised about that. Yeah, big
Roman Polanski fan John landis um and of course his

(54:56):
greatest crime after the murders was raising Max landis. Um.
Say yeah, so he uses his clout to get his
son screenwriting and eventually directing jobs, and Max puts out
a mix of Some people will say that um, um
chronicle was pretty good. I haven't seen it. I watched
American Ultra, which was very mediocre. In December of two

(55:18):
thousand and seventeen, he is accused of sexual assault by
former co worker uh, and then a couple of years
later by seven other women who eventually accused him of rape, assault,
and psychological abuse that borders He's got kind of a cult.
It's like this weird group of friends that like he's
always cycling people through and exiling people like all this
kind of like he's he's fucked up, dude. Max land

(55:40):
is a bunch of fucked up ship. He is now
running coaching a seminars coaching screenwriters. His career seems to
have pretty much created um. So that's good. We'll see
if he tries to come back at some point, very Max.
Another Max lands story is the devastating Daily Beast article
about the years and years of psychological abuse that he

(56:03):
did to a number of women and how fucked up
and insidious it was. UM. As a note, if you
just find google Daily Beast Max Landis, you'll get the
U r L for that. It's on the paywall, but
if you type it, if you go to archive dot
I S and you plug that Lincoln, it'll pop up
an archived version that you can read outside of the paywall.
If you want to know the kind of fucked up

(56:23):
ship that Max Landis was doing. That's beyond the story
today because we're talking about John Landis, who has fucked
up as Max Landis Is. His dad is worse because
Stead murdered three people. Um, it's just a whole family,
whole bloodline of great m hmm. And that's the story
of John Landis, a guy who sucks. What a bastard.

(56:49):
So I don't know, show up to his funeral when
he dies and make it about you. I will, I
really will do that. Do you have any plausibles for us? Perhaps?
Oh gosh, sure, I sure do. UM. You can follow
me on Twitter and Instagram. I've been doing this new

(57:10):
thing on my Instagram stories where I recap a movie
with as much detail as I can, um speaking as
quickly as I can and doing the whole thing entirely
from memory in fifteen seconds or less. It's a bit
that we all love and is super cool and fun
and good. So do do the movie Pie? The movie pop?

(57:35):
Are you? First of all, I barely remember. I couldn't
even I've never watched it while not tripping, and I've
watched it like seven times. I've definitely seen it, but
it was like in college because I was like, I'm
a film student and I need to launch Looking Deer
near Nashky. It's a great movie to trip while watching.

(57:56):
Although if you really want to funk your head up,
watch Tetsuo the Iron Man because that'll, oh yeah, there's
a drill fucking scene in that one. But anyway, so
those so that, so I'm afraid I will not be
doing a good job recapping the movie Pie. Also, as
soon as you said that, I my brain immediately went

(58:17):
to Life of Pie and I was like, yeah, it's
about a boy and the tiger in the boat. Did
it yep? I guess my Pie summary would be math
and judaism. M M yeah, uh yeah, that that could
be again, don't remember single detail about there's a lot

(58:38):
of both in that movie. Um so yeah. Check out
those those Instagram stories. Follow me on those social media
platforms if you must um a slash, please do because
the more followers I have, the more validated I feel
as a human person. And then you can check out

(58:58):
the Bechtel Cast, which I co host with Jamie Loftus
and we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. Well,
follow Caitlin and find us both on Twitter. Once you've
listened to this and tell us you are Max land
Is Stories. I'll bet there's a number. I'll bet like
a not insignificant number of the people listening to the

(59:19):
show we're like, oh, I had to run in with
that motherfucker. There's a lot of them out there, mostly
just in ain stupid ship, but also some horrifying stuff.
So anyway, that's the episode. Thanks for having me, Thanks
for being on the show. Behind the Bastards is a

(59:39):
production of cool Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media,
visit our website cool zone media dot com, or check
us out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.