Part Two: We Watch More of Jordan Peterson's New Show

Robert is joined again by Cody Johnston to continue to discuss Jordan Peterson's new incomprehensible tv series.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cody. It's part two of this latest journey into the
world of Jordan Peterson. But first let's talk about that
Mighty Mighty Boss released in twenty twenty two about the
murder of George Floyd and then the protests that followed.
I can't believe you were not aware of this. I

(00:22):
had no I had no idea. Um, it is stunning,
it is I mean, just the fact that it exists
is just so beautiful and funny. Yeah, the fact that
I think we can say the Mighty Mighty Boss Tones
are the whitest band has ever been without being explicitly

(00:45):
a neo Nazi band, Like it can't it can't be
whiter than the Mighty They're like they're a goose step
and a shuffle away from Yeah, not that they're Nazis,
but but but that it does not get more Caucasian,
and it's I would say, if that is your if
you are the Mighty Mighty boss Tones watching the murder

(01:07):
of this man and the protests that gripped the nation,
perhaps the thing you should say is nothing like maybe
you know obviously like well we'll make a statement that
like we support the protests or this was terrible, but
you certainly shouldn't write an entire album about George Floyd.
That's just not a thing the world needs from the
Mighty Mighty Bostons just or even you know, yeah, you

(01:31):
know an album um that, if you like looked really hard,
you'd be like, is this about George Floyd May? Yeah.
Maybe if you're like you're doing a song, you know,
on your sky album about how the police are bad,
you could reference that. That would be fine. So it
has a long history of being anti authoritarian, you know,
you know, like if you know and then process some
proceeds to charity or something like that some cause. I

(01:54):
don't know, but this is wild. Um. I listened to Uh. Also,
the song is called the Killing of Georgie, UM, which
I would say is not a great title. Um, it's
so weird. I listened to part three. I haven't I
can't find part one or two anywhere and I'm not

(02:15):
buying that album. Um. Even some of these lyrics George
Georgie please stay they took your breath away? Yeah? What
the That is an insane thing to write? That? Is that? That?
Because because again the Mighty Mighty bost Tones a lot
of musicians to band a bunch of people were in
a room when they handed those lyrics out, and all

(02:37):
of them had to be like, Yes, this is a
song we're all going to take part in. They're gonna
make it. They made it. They made that into a
music and they just let it happen to the world
and no one stopped them. And one assumes they did
that twelve times to get a whole album out of it.

(02:59):
Yeah is you know, well, so let's let's play a
clip from this song for the listeners at home. Give
the thirty seconds a tight thirty Yeah. I was gonna
say that the actual song just sounds like that one song.
They all mighty mighty Bosstone songs sound the same. They
don't have the ability to make multiple SKA sounds that

(03:19):
sound different. They're not real big fish. It even has
that scream that the guy does in that other song.
By the way, real big fish. You know how many
albums they wrote about George Floyd, Not a single one,
because real big Fish understands that's not what American needs.
They don't need real big Fish weighing in on this.
You know, God speed Real but Fish. Uh accredit to them.

(03:41):
But also I would probably answer none to any band
that you asked me about. Very There are very few
musicians whose specific take on this I need in the
form of an album, right you know, Five Iron Frenzy
Wonderful Ska band made a lot of statements about how
the police are Tara in social media. They didn't cut

(04:02):
an album an album about it because they knew. They knew,
we don't need that. Nobody needs that. At least at
least one of them knew. Maybe some of them were
on board and had the idea, but one of them
was like, you got to hit the chorus. You gotta

(04:24):
get it there, there we go, skip ahead, or no,
a little bit, give us some chorus. Yeah we can,

(04:56):
Here we go, there we go laughing. That's really Let
the bird go forth this time from this place. These
three okay, awful anymore. I listened to it back like

(05:19):
in twenties whenever it came out, and was like, this
is the worst thing I've ever heard. Um, it's it
is so it is the most cringe worthy thing. Like
I it's it's one of the worst things I've ever heard.
It's people so bad. Um even like not like I
have listened to Cody, I have listened to an entire
discography of Blink one eight two covers turned into Nazi anthems.

(05:44):
Dozens of Johnson's I have like seventy of them on
my fucking hard drive, dozens of them, and it was bad,
but it didn't make me cringe like this just like yeah,
like every even if you ignore the fact that this
about George Floyd and they call him Georgie the entire time,
but did anyone call him Georgie? Was ever his fint

(06:08):
a nickname for a murder victim, and then make an
album about it? Also if like if you're doing like
if you need two syllables because like melodically you need
that's syllable. George Floyd is his name. Yeah, that's too
You got too right there, um, But maybe they wanted
it to be a little more you know, discreet, little
under the radar, like, oh, it's not definitely about George

(06:29):
Floyd when it clearly it is. But even if you
if you remove it from that, from the context of
what it's about, like it's so awkward, like we do
you hold do we hold these truths to be self evident?
It's like a child's song. It's like it's just his
schoolhouse rock like Cadence, which like, I'm sorry for insulting

(06:49):
schoolhouse Rock right now, I didn't mean schoolhouse rock. Those
songs generally worked. Many of them are stuck in my
head periodically self evident like this, I'm I'm going to
pour back teen in my ears to try to get
this out of my brain once we finish the course.
So if you play it back listeners, the course is

(07:09):
literally just I've never had to knock on wood. It's
just that it's that's the only song they the exact
same tune um god by variations because of the uh
syllables and lyrics, the beautiful lyricism that they've introduced. Yes,
be the perfect art that is god. I can't this

(07:30):
is it's it's absolutely stunning, um that that this would
happen and that no one would stop it. Like morally,
if you, if you, if you are ever around and
your friends have a ska band and they attempt to
make an album about the murder of a black man
by the police, it is your moral responsibility to mace

(07:51):
them until they stop you. You have an ethical duty.
Or it's just like if you failed to do that,
it's the same as like watching someone get to death
in the street and refuse him to intervene anyway, Cody,
whatever it takes. This is Behind the Bastards, a show
about the mighty mighty Bosstones, History's greatest monsters. Do you

(08:14):
think Jordan Peterson has ever been able to enjoy a
ska song? Could you imagine him skanking? I can, um,
because I've seen him cry about a bluegrass band he
saw in Tennessee. Then I saw a video of him
dancing to it, um and it's actually it was good
like there was. They were a good band and like
a blue blue grass country ska yeah country, um like,

(08:38):
I got no issue with that kind of music. It
was a good band. They did a good job. But
I think that any like any music I think moves him,
which is you know, fine, the most human thing exactly. Um.
So I think I think he would scank it. I
think he would scank it. I think he could really.
I think he could really get down to you know,
that real big fish song beer. What if you rewrote

(09:01):
it to be about having a single sip of cider
and then not not sleeping for thirty days and then
saying you didn't sleep, Like, let's be clear, Well, this
has been nine minutes of Cody and Robert talking about
there are solid eleven people in our audience who were
waiting for this for years, and those eleven people having

(09:25):
the best day of their lives. Everyone else has deleted
us from their phones. You're welcome to those people, sorry
to everybody. Yeah, so, Cody, when we last left off
with Jordan Peterson in this episode, Jordy George, he was
talking about how women are incapable of looking at relationships

(09:46):
in anything other than like a cold, transactional way. Um. Now,
the next thing Peterson does in this episode is stick
his brains dick into the problem of mass shootings. Did
you like that sent It's Cody go about how I
wrote that sentence. I don't hate it. Did it take
your breath away? Oh? God, here's Jordan's. I think Warren

(10:12):
Ferrell wrote a book called The Boy Crisis. Told me
yesterday when I was talking to them, every single high
school shooter was fatherless. I mean, you know, that's a
small sample of people, but uh huh, society seems to be,
let's say, degenerating into a more and more woke direction.
Oh so, Cody, I'm not going to look up as

(10:35):
buddy Warren like I did his other friend, because the
claim that he's made there that mass shooters are always
fatherless is complete horseshit, And it's the easiest thing in
the world to dek he was gonna look at like,
and this is a thing that if you're if you're
a listener of this show, and you're like, I actually
like Jordan Peterson, I don't know what you're doing here,
but thanks for coming. Um. Anything he ever says, just

(10:56):
be like what it's always what sounds of the time,
it's at least a little wrong. Um, and this is
a lot wrong. Uh. Snopes has covered this, which makes
it very easy to debunk. There is a year's long
right wing media claim that mass shootings are committed by
fatherless children. This is to demonize single mothers. It's just
to demonize the fact that like the breakdown of the
family and not I don't know the fact that like, look,

(11:19):
i'm a I'm as pro gun as they get. But
it's the fact that any angry young person can purchase
whatever a gun do they want, even if they have
a history of domestic violence, with sixty percent of them
do if you want to look at the thing that
actually most mass shooters have in common. Most of them
have a history of violence towards women. That doesn't stop
them from acquiring a firearm anyway. Yes, and police, Yes, um,

(11:44):
who killed twice as many people as mass shooters in
the United States. We should also know anyway, the point
of origin of this, like right wing sort of thing
that like this is the problem is single mothers and
not anything to do with guns or patriarchal violence or whatever.
The point of origin for this is an article in
The Federalist in two thousand fifteen, which was later picked
up to act as evidence for a Fox News column.

(12:04):
It did not claim. This Federalist article does not claim,
as Peterson does that every mass shooter is fatherless. Quote.
On CNN's list of the twenty seven deadliest mass shootings
in US history, seven of those shootings were committed by
young under thirty male Since two thousand five, of the seven,
only one Virginia Tech shooters young Hope who So I'm
not gonna try to pronounce the Virginia Tech shooter who

(12:25):
had been mentally unstable since childhood, was raised by his
biological father throughout childhood. Now, this is also extremely out
of date and wrong quote. For the purposes of this article,
we researched contemporaneous news reports to see if any of
the shooters originally listed in CNNs twenty seven deadliest mass
shootings in US history grew up in households without a father.
We found with a father. We found that several of

(12:45):
them did. The Virginia Tech shooter, who killed thirty two
people in Virginia Tech into thus and seven, was raised
by both the father and a mother. So was George Hennard,
who killed twenty three people in Colleen, Texas in nineteen one.
Charles Whitman, who killed seventeen people at the University of
Texas at Austin in nineteen sixties, six, Nadal Malikasan, who
fatally shot thirteen people in four hood in two thousand nine,
Jaffery Wong who killed thirteen and two thousand nine in Binghamton,

(13:07):
New York. And Aaron Alexis, who fatally shot twelve people
at the Washington Navy Yard in two thousand and thirteen.
James Huberty, who killed twenty one people at McDonald's in
the Sandy Cedro neighborhood of San Diego, California, was made
by a single father. And later a father and a
stepmother after his biological mother, a band of the family.
So again these are not And by the way, this
is not a comprehensive list of all of the mass
shooters parents. Many of them have. It is complete horseship

(13:31):
to say that they do not have, Like mass shooters
aren't tend to be fatherless, that's nonsense. Yes, so Jordan's
doesn't have an editor for content here. Again, he's just
kind of talking in a nice room. So he starts
off on a rant next about how woke universities are

(13:53):
and and he winds up repeating at length his arguments
from episode one about not saying anything you don't a
percent believe, and again because there's no editor here and
no one can tell him, hey, Jordan, you win over
all this already. Um, And so for the next couple
of minutes he's just kind of describing things people do
without explaining anything of meaning. It's it's like weirdly pointless.

(14:13):
And here's an example. Everybody gets rejected at the time.
You only have to succeed once and then maybe you're
not good at interviews, and and maybe you try hard
and you don't find another job and not sucks because
he actually tried hard and you failed. And so often
people pull their punches so that if they failed, they
can always say, well, I didn't really try that hard. Yeah,

(14:33):
it's just like okay. He does a very stream of consciousness. Yeah,
it's very strecer consciousness. But also it's like, yeah, that's true.
It's like there's like he's got it sucks when you
don't get a job that you interview for. Absolutely Jordan's
he doesn't. That's why I think part of why is
so effective and uh connective for some people, um and

(14:55):
why a lot of his critics will often be like,
but he's a good at this and good at this
because he'll say like really basic almost but now like
like therapist stuff. Yea, like this idea of like, yeah,
sometimes people pull their punches so that like when they fail,
they can say like, oh, I don't really try very hard,
so it's fine, that's the thing people do. He's absolutely correct,
but like what I do that often exactly, but like okay,

(15:19):
and so you can go on like this, Yeah, this
episode is a mix of like these things. He's just
kind of like laying out things that happen in the
world and then he's mixing it in with these like
factual statements that are always wrong that he half remembers
from friends of his, all of who are right ring
propagandists like set in articles they work for, wrote for
Quilette or Heritage or whatever. And as the episode goes on,

(15:41):
he makes repeated reference to his private clinical practice as
a therapist, talking about how he laborously helped people rebuild
their lives or fixing tractable mental health problems. And this
is where things get really messed up. Lots of people
would come into my office and they're terrified to be there.
They didn't want to be there. It took them like
two years to get up the courage to go to
a therapist. And so part of my job was to

(16:02):
make them as comfortable as I possibly could instantly. And
a huge part of that was paying attention to them
and not to me. And you can get really good
at that. Sorry, brave, brave, do you be about them
and not you? Jordan? What are you talking about? Yeah,
nobody goes to a therapist to learn about the therapist.

(16:24):
I just want to get a therapist to pay a
hundred and fifty bucks a session so I can get
to know. Ah, dude, we're gonna get into what he's
talking about, Cody, But first, you know, what is the
only real kind of therapy spending money? Yeah? Well it is.
It is in fact, Scott, Look, you go to a

(16:46):
fucking street Light Manifesto concert and tell me that you
didn't just have a religious experience. I will, I dare
you to, Cody, They're accepted. Uh, okay, so we're back.
Jordan Peterson has just talked about how you he became

(17:08):
friends and get gets all of his patients to trust him,
right about how like that's a real struggle as a
therapist getting these people to trust them, about how good
he is at it um And the fact that he's
talking about like how important was to gain the trust
of these troubled people who came to him looking for
mental health advice. Um, that made me want to look up,
like what happened with his actual patients because he's no

(17:31):
longer in clinical practice And I kind of thought maybe
there's a story there, And boy, howdy I came across, Yeah,
I came across an article in the magazine Canada Land
about the end of Jordan Peterson's clinical practice. Now this
occurred as he became a media figure, and he went
from obscure academic to wealthy celebrity. And one of the
first things Jordan did when this happened is abandoned the

(17:53):
patients that he had built a rapport with. Quote shortly
before Peterson decided he couldn't both be a media personnality
and a practicing psychologist at the same time. He canceled
sessions with patients, later claiming illness while maintaining an appointment
to appear on television. He responded to messages from patients
with auto reply emails, which brought up the challenges of
his burgeoning fame, directing recipients to send argumentative emails to

(18:15):
his ideological opponents. He employed his wife to sort through
emails from patients without first asking for their consent. He
shared potentially identifying information about patients with other patients. That's
really bad, that's horrible, that's deeply unethical and kind of evil,

(18:36):
not just yeah, that's really evil and selfish and cruel,
um deeply like potentially potentially something that could even have
a body count. Because being a therapist is a thing,
Like a number of people who are attending therapy are
doing it because suicide is a thing they consider regularly.

(18:57):
And if they let you in and trust you and
then you like both abandoned them because you get famous
and also tell them, hey, send the emails harassing people
I don't like, Like yeah, so okay, yeah, okay, like, yeah,
you're trusting this person and they cancel and then you
see them on TV. That's fucked up? What like, could
you repeat the part about the emails to his opponents,

(19:21):
like this long list of just like direct recipients to
send argumentative emails to his ideological opponents. So wait, so
you emailed his patients to Yeah, yeah, this was I
think this is the thing. And let me let me
pull up the art. It's been a while since I
read it. Let me pull up the article again and
find that's just so many for you. What the funk

(19:43):
is wrong with this guy? Well, I think we know
what's wrong with sucking narcissists who wanted money. Yeah, that
is like, that's all I wish I had found this
article when you and I were doing the Peterson episodes
that we did, because this is legitimately like the worst
thing I've heard about him. That's all you need to

(20:04):
know about him, Like, yeah, that's oh my god. All right. Well,
so basically this article, a lot of it focuses on
one of his patients, Samantha, who like he cancels an
appointment with her saying that he's sick, and then he
shows up on TV the next night. This is like,
right when all that stuff breaks with that Canadian like
change to hate laws and stuff. Um quote. When Samantha

(20:28):
responded to an email that offered new dates to meet,
she received what appeared to be an auto reply aimed
at his growing number of supporters, attempting to mobilize a
letter writing campaign, and his battle against political correctness at
the university. Hi, thank you for writing. At the moment,
I am unable to keep up with my email correspondents,
although I will try at some point in the future
to respond personally. If you are emailing me about current

(20:49):
PC related issues, you should consider sending your comments to
the following individuals. Remember that the only way that any
of this can be straightened out is through carefully articulated
in reasonable arguments. I would say that the vast majority
of letters I have received have been exactly that, and
it's just what has needed. Assume rationality and the part
of the recipients and make a careful case we want
to play in the court of reason. C see a
copy to me if you wish. And then the message

(21:11):
gave email addresses for like seven University of Toronto officials
who had gone after him for his refusal to refer
to pay students by their preferred gender pronounce. So that's
what's happening, is this woman, he builds a rapport with her,
she's like comes to rely on him for her mental
health care, and then he like ghosts her and all
she gets his auto replies telling her to harass people

(21:32):
at the university on his behalf. That's that's literally what
happens there, which is profoundly abusive. Is that's the most
disgusting thing I've ever heard about Jordan Peterson. Yeah, um,
that is in the top three, at least, there's a
long list. I have to sort through it. But that's

(21:52):
like really fucked up, that's really deeply fun up to.
It just speaks so much to who he is and
what he's all about. Yeah, And there's a number of
ethics complaints they get filed against Peterson by patients who
found themselves discarded by him in his rush to capitalize
on fame. Um. Obviously he doesn't talk about any of
this on the show, right, he just talks about how
good he is it building a rapport with people and

(22:14):
getting them to trust him and um talking about himself
or whatever and not talking about himself focusing on them. God,
what a fucking creep. What a piece of ship. So
he spent several minutes talking about his friends in school
who were all again this is now He's gone back
to like talking about his own childhood, about people he
used to know as a kid, and all of his

(22:34):
friends were super like or while all of his friends
in like high school were like super tough, cool kids
who worked on oil rigs. Uh. He starts talk telling
the story about how one of his friends got into
a fight with their swimming coach and they were both cool,
like super cool, and then Jordan forgets to tell us
the end of the story and talks about how Jocko
Willink is cool too, what he's just like he's just

(22:55):
like talking about his cool friends and oil rigs and
how they got into a fight with the coach and
they're so manly. Knew who else is manly is the
Navy's seal with a podcast Jocko Willink, who again, I'm
not I have no particular opinions on Jocko. I'm not
attacking him. Jordan Peterson just goes into a rant about
how cool he is because he's like Jordan's friends who
got into fights with their swimming coach. For the record,

(23:19):
I don't think Jacko will Link ever got into a
fight with a swimming coach that I would. I would
believe you. Here, here's the clip. You're gonna want to
do it on your own terms. And our school systems
very bad at facilitating that. In fact, it does everything.
It was even designed at the beginning to not facilitate that,
because our school system was based on the Prussian military model,

(23:40):
and the Prussians, who also trained the Japanese to establish
their school systems by the way, they wanted to produce
obedient factory workers. And so first off, this is what
after he's randomly talking about how his friends were super
cool oil rig workers who got into fist fights with
their coach, this is what leads to him talking about
like modern education and how broken it is, like the

(24:03):
idea that it was better back when kids would just
work in oil rigs and get into fist fights with coaches,
and now it's they're all Prussian school modeled in terrible
and like everybody's being trained to be obedient drones. Wait
the second he likes that though, well, no he doesn't,
because that's that's a great point, Cody, But he doesn't. Now,

(24:24):
So what's important is that he's made another falsifiable statement here,
right that Japan based their schooling on the Prussian model. Now,
the Prussian but like we're taught by them, like trained
by them to do the Prussian model is a thing.
Japan did not base their schooling system on Prussian learning alone,
nor did the Prussians just like teach them how to

(24:44):
do schooling. From eighteen seventy three to eighteen ninety, Japan
reformed their educational system, and they didn't do it just
like by bringing in people to teach them how to
do it. They didn't base their their new education system
on any one nation's methods, and what they did was
the very reasonable thing. They adopted a number of different
methods from several countries and then tested a bunch of

(25:05):
them out at the same time so they could learn
through trial and error what seemed to work best. They
did in fact study and test aspects of the Prussian system.
They also tested and studied aspects of the American and
French education systems. Um almost like they didn't just want
to create robotic drones, but we're really just like trying
to solve the difficult problem of what works for an

(25:26):
educational system. Prussia the late eighteen hundreds very successful countries.
So is the United States, and so is France, and
so they're kind of like being like, well, these three
countries are succeeding in ways we want to succeed. Let
us test aspects of their educational systems to see what
works for us, Which is not what Peterson said, because

(25:46):
he's wrong about everything. He said the Prussians trained them
how to do the school, which was based on he does.
It is interesting. Yeah, He's like it's so managing because
like clearly he re a lot. He's a reader. He
reads a lot, and he half remembers, like most of
us do, bits and pieces of what I read. He
like he like kind of absorbs a little bit or

(26:09):
like these things that that he like moves around so
that they align with whatever he is thinking at the time,
and like just says like, as fact, this thing is like,
well ten percent of that was right, Like, you're right,
the Japanese did test out aspects of the Prussian education system. Um,

(26:29):
but you're missing what actually happened in Japan in that period, Right,
there's like okay, subject and object or right, the verbs
are all wrong. Yeah. I think the thing that is
kind of worth highlighting here is the denial of agency
of Japanese people. Like the way he frames it, the
Prussians came in and taught them how to build an
education system that would train their children into like little robots,

(26:51):
and that that's what happened as opposed to the Empire
of Japan exercise and considerable agency going out and testing
different methods to right and reform their system in a
way that would allow them to achieve their goals, which
is what happened, right, Yeah, because Japan is famously a
country that exercises quite a bit of agency. But like yeah,

(27:14):
and like they did the thing that he would support,
like you test this, you test this, you test this,
and you can find the best result. And like is
he trying to make a connection to what he was
talking about earlier with like Japanese men, Yeah, I think so.
I think he is, like, that's yeah, even though like
there are you might argue a significant thing that happens

(27:37):
about sixty years after Japan reforms this educational system that
leads to kind of some social breaks that might be
more relevant for looking at things that are happening to
young Japanese men in two. Not that his not that
what he said earlier about Japanese men two was accurate either, right, yeah, is,
but I don't know, Joan. I think something happened in

(27:57):
the mid forties that might have caused a break in
the way Japanese society handled stuff like education, I mean
anything that's entire Yeah, okay, okay, Dr Peterson. So anyway,
he's just this doesn't have a huge thing to do
with his other clips. It's just like he's always wrong. Anyway.

(28:18):
Here's another clip. Don't sell yourself short and don't let
the people who demand slavish obedience, you know, that puppy
dog style of living. Don't let them short circuit your
future because you know you're not inclined towards that kind
of obedience. That's actually a virtue, not a vice, even
though it's punished in well, certainly in schools, especially by

(28:42):
edible female teachers, although there's no shortage of men who
are participating in that is. Yeah, my man, like the
like coolest split screen thing, this cool that it's just
yea so great visually. Um that he was gonna say

(29:04):
some fun shit. I love whenever because you have these
moments where like there's this little slip he loses a
little bit of composure and it's like, ah, you hate women, right,
Like that's yeah, you're really deeply angry at women. Um yeah,
that's I mean the couple were like, yeah, like all
the stuff he's been saying like this that like dating
above their status and like the fatherless it's like single

(29:27):
mothers and mass shooters like all this stuff. It's like, man,
you're just so deeply angry at the concept of women. Um,
that's pretty cool, I think. But also but also like
it's only what he's talking about too is just like
you know, obedience is like you know, don't because it's
a slave to blah blah blah. It is like, but
you would disagree with that if it was about something

(29:49):
you agree with, you would be like, well, no, you
like you you follow orders, you like you do this,
you do this, you find your place, and you like
you follow the steps in your hierarchy to do X
and y. Um. It's just so just his it's like
context ideology dependent, and it's just fun to see him

(30:09):
pretend that he doesn't he doesn't think that way. Yeah.
You know what else is fun to pretend? Cody, Uh,
some edible mother. It's fun to pretend that we could
ever live in a world without the products and services
that support this podcast. But of course we couldn't. There
is no life without these products and services. Existence itself

(30:31):
is meaningless without whatever comes up next. As soon as
my stopped talking, Ah, we're back, and I hope that
your lives have been filled with meaning. Um, the only
meaning you will ever experience. Family means nothing, Your own

(30:52):
children mean nothing. Love is but a vapor in the air.
But the products and services that support this podcast our
God in a very real way. Cody. Yeah, yeah, that's good.
No disagreement. M cool. So the very next thing that
happens in the Jordan Peterson TV Show is this very
this really weirdly sharp cut, followed by the title text

(31:15):
Can men be controllable monsters? Yeah? It's a question, and
only psychopaths ask themselves. Um, so you gotta accept the
monster's aspects of you and be a monster in order
to be uh whatever, he'll say it. It's fine exactly.

(31:37):
He talks about young in Nietzsche a lot, and it's honestly,
it's not very interesting. There's a long kind of rambling
rant here, but I want to play where it leads
him to. This is him kind of like reaching his conclusions.
You might have fantasies of revenge, sometimes very violent. If
you're extremely sexually deprived, or maybe not even that extremely,

(31:58):
you'll have sexual fantasy. And if you're revengeful and look
up bro and feeling oppressed, and then you might have
violent sexual fantasies. That's a part of you. So let's
say that's the shadow. I just want to point out

(32:19):
that he only looked into the camera and when he
was like violence, sexual fantasies. Yeah, God, it's it's all
like this. And there's a cut coming up in which
the screen splits in three, focusing on focusing on Jordan's hands,
then a close shot of his face, and then the
wide shot of him sitting in a chair. Nothing interesting

(32:43):
happens during this. He does not make any points. There
is no like big conclusion he builds too. I just
the editing decisions in this video text on screen, just
then scroll back. Why don't we just play that segment.
Let's let's give it. Oh it's a head yeah okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

(33:05):
it's yeah. Yeah. The text is women want a tamable beast.
There we go. Yeah, yeah, it's amazing. So his train
of thought, as that might key you went on, leads
him to another Disney movie, thank God, And here's him
talking about that story of Beauty and the Beast, and

(33:28):
so in the Disney version, which does a very nice
job of laying this out, Beauty is an entirely commendable female.
She's attractive and wise, intelligent, ethical, devoted to her father,
but not in the pathological way. Independent. She has everything
going for her. She's the target of the advances of

(33:50):
a narcissistic Macavellian Gaston, who's like a parody of masculinity.
He's sort of you might think about him as the
as the feminine patriarchal nightmare and animated form said no one, ever,
what what are you doing? Well, he's not a nightmare
so much as a caricature, Like it's a movie, and

(34:14):
he's Gaston is the bad guy because he's everything Jordan
Peterson wants a man to be. He's deeply concerned with hierarchy.
He is unable to consider like the validity of other
people's experiences. He is deeply anti woke. He is he is.
He extracts unthinking lye from the world around him in
order to increase his own uh like power and his

(34:38):
own like relative level of wealth in society. Like he
has everything. Jordan Peterson thinks it's good for a man
to be, which is what He's a caricature. He's a
caricature of you. Jordan's right, yeah, and like the movement
you're supporting, it's so weird to also it's funny. He
and like you know, the shapires of the world. World,

(35:00):
they just can't like whenever they see something like that,
they can't. They like short circuit in a way because
he wants to talk about beauty and the beast in
a way that's like, oh, it's meaningful and it means
this and it demonstrates this, and like here's what it
says about life and it's good. But there's this character
who reminds me of me. So he's bad, Like the

(35:20):
idea that they're like, he's scoffing at this, He's what
he's saying is that, like, rather than Beauty and the
Beast was even in the fucking whenever that movie was made,
like the sixties, right, even in this less this less
woke era, the people who made Beauty and the Beast
were specifically saying, like, masculinity, toxic masculinity of the sort

(35:42):
that Peterson embodies is something to be mocked and derided. Um,
which is like what they hate the most, Which is
what they hate the most, because the message of that
is that like things get better for this like like monstrous,
aggressive individual because he's fundamentally capable of change and like
listening to others and learning from them, and everything good

(36:04):
that happens to him and happens in the story is
because he's capable of listening to and learning from a
woman's ramping up to critique like feminist movements like me too. Yeah,
I think that's kind of where we're Let's let's let's
continue from where we left a bluster. And although he's attractive,
it's a superficial attractiveness that often characterizes narcissists, and Beauty

(36:28):
is wise enough to actually prefer the beast, who's a
beast but also capable of standing up to Gaston and
also prevailing, which is the advantage of the beast like elements,
but also capable of being enticed by beauty and maybe
literally so into a first of all a productive orientation

(36:51):
for his proclivity for aggression, and also into a productive
and generous relationship and beauty being a wise woman and
oriented towards the good and characterized by a positive relationship
with her father, which is stressed by the way in
that movie wants a tamable beast. And first off, we'll

(37:12):
continue in a second. It's been a minute since I've
seen that. Isn't one of the points of it that
he's actually like not super violent, Like he he makes
like big threats and he blusters, but he never hurts her.
Nor is he a violent threat to the rest of
the village. No, he's only a violent threat to guests
on briefly at the end, because uh, he's like bringing

(37:37):
a mob of people. Um, that was so interesting to
see him be like, yeah, it's like he's having to
control his beastliness in order to defeat this narcissist And like,
I actually think the point of it is that he's
not really a beast. He just looks scary because of
a curse, but it's actually kind of a decent man

(37:59):
with some emotional trouble who needs to work through his problems,
like he becomes That not the actual point of the
story that he's not gentle by the end. Um, it's
so weird that he lead with that. I'm just saying,
update to dating profile must be four years older than
me and be a hashtag tam moable beasts be at
tamable beamable beast because I feel anyway guys would be like,

(38:25):
oh yeah, finally, finally, why don't you keep playing for
a little bit longer. We did that, We did the
rest of the thing that you No, no, no, I
want to get to the point where he talks about
how women like erotic literature. Yes, yes, yes, I've seen
before before sorry, before we before we play this, I

(38:46):
have seen again. All this stuff is stuff he's talked
about like ninety million times on other podcasts and flogs
and stuff. I've seen him talk about what he's about
to talk about with his daughter. Productive and competent, but
so capable of enough aggression to keep the real monsters
at bay. And that's a very narrow needle I for

(39:08):
women to threat because you need a man who is
aggressive enough to keep the real monsters away, but simultaneously
agreeable enough, empathic enough, generous enough to be good with kids,
to be good with her, and to share. And so
that's a very fine line. And the taming of the
beast is in some sense the negotiated establishment of that line.

(39:30):
So there's a book called A Billion Wicked Thoughts that
was written by Google engineers, who are quite reliable social
scientists when they put their minds to it, engineer types
because they tend to follow the data independent of any
political inclination. And they looked at patterns of pornography use
among men and women, drawing on literally billions of data

(39:51):
points a Billion Wicked Thoughts, and they found was something
that had been reported previously, but this was on a
very large scale. That men use visual pornography. I don't
think that comes as a shock to anyone, but that
women's preferred pornographic art form is literary. The women like stories,
and they analyze the canonical female pornographic fantasy and it's

(40:14):
basically surprise, surprise, fifty shades of gray, and so the
Google engineers identified five categories of men that were often
the feature target for the romantic and erotic adventures of
the female protagonist in the pornographic stories Pirate, vampire, surgeon, billionaire,

(40:38):
and one I can never remember, but you get the
ideas it's werewolf. The one he cannot remember is werewolf.
You remember here you put a werewolf in there, and like,
there's so much that's wrong here. Number one, I don't know. Obviously,

(40:59):
a number of women find it attractive when a man
is like muscular or strong, or like large. There's something comfortable,
especially if you're smaller about that. That is like a
thing that occurs in the world. Um, But it's not
because those men are tamable beasts. And in fact, I
would argue that as in my experience, UM, it tends

(41:23):
to be deeply off putting. If you feel like somebody
is barely holding and check their aggressiveness, like, it's nice
to be with someone if you're who like you feel like, oh,
if something bad happens, this person will react well and
can help me stay safe and can protect people around me.
That is an attractive trait. It's like if a fire
breaks out and you happen to have someone there who

(41:46):
has experienced fighting fires and they put the fire out.
That is attractive. It is attractive to know, oh, that
person can handle themselves in a dangerous situation. Right. All
people find that attractive, men and women. It's always an
attractive trait for very obvious reasons. What very few people
find attractive is feeling, wow, this person could fly off
the handle and become a dangerous, violent person at any second.

(42:10):
Right because what he's talking about our fantasies. He's used
that word many times, what he's talking about, and in
these fantasies, they're not like pirate. It's not a violent,
angry pirate with a short fuse who could. It's the
charming erudit who's you know, he's violent, he's doing a
violent job, but he's not inherently a violent man. And

(42:32):
when you get to know it's the there's a reason
why an entire generation of women in the West fell
in love with Carrie always in uh fucking um the
Princess because he's, yeah, he's this pirate, but fundamentally, the
instant you talk to him, he doesn't. He's not this unchecked,
violent madman. He's a deeply urbane, erudit charming individual and

(42:55):
that's incredibly attractive. Yeah, I mean looking for a man
four years older hashtag te beast but also literal werewolf.
Not the two deeply handsome men in who have a
generation men and women fell in love with in the
Princess Diary and to Go Montolia and Carrie is the

(43:17):
dread pilot. Princess Bride is the dread pirate. Roberts are
both like deeply thoughtful and emotionally connective, gentle yeah yeah, gentle,
very gentle, and merciful as a general rule. Yeah, they
treat Buttercup wonderfully the entire time, uh pheasant, like they're all,
it's just what a fucking It's incredible. But also like

(43:40):
even his is the thing he's citing. He's like a surprise, surprise.
It's fifty shades of Gray um, and I'm not I
have not read fifas of Gray um. I've like read
funny reviews of it a little bit, but like I'm
pretty sure the gray character who but the main character's
name is Christian Gray, which yeah, yeah, the billy, but

(44:00):
like he's not like a violent, vicious man. It's an
arrangement that they have made consual sexual arrangement. It's a
sexual arrangement where she feels safe in that relationship to
open herself up and feel and be vulnerable in that scenario.
It's not like, Oh, he's like a fucking violent, like

(44:23):
sadist and I'm gonna but I'm gonna tame him. Like,
that's not what it's about. Right, there's this there's this thing,
and we're we're going to tread into some dicey territory.
You can find a number of men who wrote, particularly
back in the seventies, really bad essays about the fact
that rape is a really common sexual fantasy, right, that
a lot of sexual fantasies involve assault and domination in

(44:46):
that san Bernie Sanders wrote a terrible essay. Hunter Thompson
wrote a terrible essay. And as somebody who has repeatedly
interviewed like people who professionally, sometimes in a clinical sense,
help people engage with fantasy, is like that part of
the reason why those are so common is they allow
people who have been victimized to take power and agency

(45:07):
in a situation that was deeply traumatic to them and
kind of recreate and explore that that that experience while
being able to take agency and control this time, and
that is a that is a reason why that is
a thing that people. But I don't think a guy
like Jordan is capable of understanding that. Instead he interprets
it as women actually want this a diversion of this

(45:30):
to happen to them, rather than like, well, people who
are traumatized may seek to explore the thing that traumatized
them in a way in which they have more agency. Yeah. Um,
it's kind of fucked up that he's a psychologist. It's
really fucked up that he's a psychologist. This is a
deeply stead of studied, like piece of like sexual psychology.

(45:51):
A lot has been written by clinicians about why people
do the things in some of this role playing that
they do, Like this is a thing people study academically
that I don't think he's ever read about, because it
would it would make him uncomfortable versus a little bubble um.
I feel like he said these had like tweets about this,

(46:12):
like uh, like about I feel like it was about Muslims, yeah,
and like desiring like I don't even want to find it.
It doesn't matter, No, it's not it's just again he's
he's he's wrong about everything. Um, just like he's wrong
about were wolves because he forgot them, which is funny

(46:32):
because that's like, look, if you're gonna, if you're gonna,
if you're gonna list things that are common in erotic fiction,
like werewolf is going to be the top of everybody's
were wolf in pirates, right, were wolves and pirates like like,
I wonder like because there's like he's like and then
there's a fourth one and I can't remember it and
then text on screens that werewolf. I wonder if they
didn't know, Like part of me feels like because he

(46:54):
I think he just like probably talks and then leaves
and isn't like privy to like what it turns out
as he's not like in the editing room, you know,
being like, oh d text here is just some fucking
person got I watched this and cut to a shot
of his hands or whatever. So I feel like the
editor like guests like, oh, pirates vampire werewolves too, And

(47:15):
that's why it says werewolves, not because that's what he
couldn't think of, but because the editor had to fill
it in. Yeah, it's, um, you know what I would
like to do with Jordan Peterson if I could, I
would like to sit him downward, and I would like
to make him watch the movie Wolf Cop, and I
would like him to interpret the film Wolf Cop, particularly

(47:38):
the scene in which the main character bursts Dick Frost
first into a werewolf. It's the most incredible scene in
cinematic history. Nothing has ever compared to it. God, I
love wolf I I'm just now hearing of it. Have
you not seen wolf Coffee turns cock first into a
werewolf Cody and you see it all? What it is
amazing everything you see everything Wolf Cop. Watch it. I'm

(48:02):
checking out the trailer right now. It is heard he's
a very drunk cop. The main character is a drunk cop. Yes,
because he's wasted. He is like he is like the
Sheriff and Jaws level alcoholic. It's awesome. Um. And then
the best thing about it is after he becomes a werewolf,
he doesn't stop being a cop. He's both a hundred

(48:24):
percent werewolf and a hundred percent cop at the same time,
which is groundbreaking. I mean that's why he's the wolf
cop right, Yes, exactly. Anyway, anyway, lampire and wolf cop
and wolf cop so um, it's very funny. H So

(48:46):
he goes into this misunderstanding of this Google study to
say that it's really important that all of these preferred
female fantasy men um were like these these fantasies remained
in place during Me Too. Like that's that he thought,
you think that's a big deal. I knew it. Anyway,

(49:06):
here's how he describes the Me too movement, just taking
a deep sigh. All male will is potentially corrupted by
power and to be regarded with suspicion and legal regulation. Well,
that's far too extreme and preposterous. And so what you

(49:26):
have as a compensatory fantasy emerge. That's highlighting the value
that's not being properly attended to by the culture, and
it possesses people in an unconscious manner, you might say, uh,
in an attempt to bring them back to the middle.
And anyways, that's all part of the tamable monster and

(49:48):
is it is it also hand motions during that exact
part or just spectacularly distracting. It's his need to like
make these things complex and deeper than Like, it was
easy for men to get away with assaulting women and
they didn't like that, and they're frustrating, Like listening to

(50:10):
them talk about this stuff, it's like, no, man, just
like people don't like to be assaulted. Jordan's like the
like why me too happen is extremely simple. It was
easy for powerful men to get away with abusing women,
and the women didn't like it, like it, and also
a lot of men didn't like it because it's fucked

(50:31):
up and horrible, like people did. People don't like that.
It's bad. Some people did and those people are bad. Yeah,
those people are terrible, and we wanted them out of
our society. There the tamable beasts. You can even phrase
that in like a stupid mythic term, where like fundamentally

(50:51):
society is all sheep and wolves, and the wolves were
preying on the sheep, but dressing as the wolf. It's
the evil uncle and the crowd own and I don't
know whatever, I'm not going to try to do that,
like you can do a man job of this than
because um yeah. So after this, he restates for like
the fifth fucking time that a man who can be
aggressive but also knows how not to be aggressive is

(51:13):
the most useful kind of man, which is like pointless. Yes,
aggression is sometimes necessary so it is it is good
to be capable of aggression and also know when that's
not appropriate. Like obviously, that's the thing of saying, like,
it's good to know when you should use a kitchen
knife as opposed to putting the kitchen knife away so
you don't accidentally cut somebody. Well, yes, Jordan's it is

(51:35):
good to not just swing a kitchen knife around. There's
a time and a place for that knife. Everyone knows this, um. Also,
the same is true of women, where it's you need
to be aggressive sometimes and other times it's inappropriate to
be aggressive. That is true of all human beings, like
sometimes human beings will need to be aggressive, but most

(51:55):
of the time they won't need to be, and knowing
the difference is critical. Obviously, Jordan um, I don't know.
His episode peters out to a completely nonsensical closing statement.
Control is that way more useful man than one who
cannot do that for lack of ability or because he's
imposed or incorporated arbitrary moral constraints on his perceptions and

(52:19):
behavior that stop him from well from from from being
able to say no, for example, because saying no is
an act of aggression, as what no means no means
stop doing that, or something you do not like will
absolutely happened to you. And so without that, there's no
capacities say no. And well, if you can't say no,

(52:43):
you can't negotiate, you can't you can't move forward, you
can't you can't live your own life. You can't put
limits on Machiavellian's, you can't oppose narcissists, you can't emerge
scathed from people use empathy in a manipulative way. You

(53:04):
can't put constraints on a bad, badly behaving two year old.
Oh good, get the song. No in aggression, those are
an integrated aggression. Those are pretty much exactly the same thing.
What what what? The same thing is inherently enactive violence. Impressively,

(53:27):
he's saying that because like, you can't say no without
the threat of force. But for example, the other night,
my friends were going out to dance and they asked
if I wanted to go, and I said no, And
you know what I didn't was not present at all
was the fact that I might harm them physically if
they asked me again. Right, there was no threat. It
was just I was asked if I wanted to do

(53:49):
a thing, and I stated that I did not right,
because like what he's like assuming that, like it's not
just like the no is violence, it's the initial question
is violence. Yeah, everything is violence. It's just meeting violence violence,
and so rejecting that is also implicit violence. And also
like as a general even in the because he's obviously

(54:11):
means a lot of this is like a in a
like in a sexual way, like if a man asks
something of a woman and she says no, that's a
violence on her part too, because obviously she can only
back up the fact that, like she doesn't want him
to do something if she's willing to use force, which
is nonsense, because I think it is for the most

(54:32):
part in human society when like people ask do you
want to do like hey, do you want to make
out or whatever or have some sort of like physical
arrangement and the other person says no, As a general rule,
most people are like, oh okay, and there's not a
threat of violence because most people don't want to be rapists.

(54:52):
I do feel like that's probably someone that is somewhat
of a statement of faith on my part. But yeah,
I mean according to Jordan, that's not true. Sort of
the Jordan that's not true. It's the threat of violence
on both sides period. Also like just what a weird
way to end um. But like it's just again, it's

(55:15):
one of those things where he's like he's talking these
grandiose terms and in some ways just misrepresenting things and
just saying fucked up, like uh, like hard lined rules
about how everybody is and how everybody should act. But
what he's talking about like almost it's like, yeah, it's
good to set boundaries and be able to say no,

(55:38):
which which okay, yeah, But also saying no is inherently
not an act of violence, right, No, Like it's it's
like it's like packaged and all this other stuff is
like it would be it would be fair to say that,
like sometimes because of because of the fact that many
men have bad boundaries and are aggressive in an unhinged way,

(55:58):
women may need to know how to say no in
a in a way that is aggressive and that implies
a degree of threat because they may be in a
situation where they are themselves threatened. That's a fair statement,
but also number one, that's not ever going to be
generally true. And number two, we should be moving as
a society to a situation which people don't have to
say no as a with the threat of aggression behind it,

(56:22):
like because that's bad. That's always a bad thing when
that happens. Anyway, Jordan Peterson, I mean he's talked about
this before in terms of like how you can't like
is it like you can't, uh, you can't control crazy
women because you can't be violent with Um you're a man,
I can the threat of violence is there, but if

(56:43):
you're a woman, it's not, so you can't do anything.
So there's nothing to control women. Yes, it's just a
weird guy. Yeah. I I don't know. I Uh, I
feel like he's not a good person, Cody. I think maybe, um,
maybe that's true. I think that those email and how
he treated his patients is pretty indicative that he's not

(57:03):
a very good person, aside from everything else he's ever said. Um,
and how we've used the world. Not a fan, not
a fan, Not a fan, Cody, you know what? I
am a fan of? What's that is you? Oh? Yeah?
Two times? Where where? Because I've never met you before,

(57:23):
this is the first time we're talking. If I wanted
to find things that you make and or create on
the internet, where would I find those uh so many
places or just a few, uh YouTube. I have a
show called some More News where all the podcasts are
a show called even more News Wow. And you can

(57:45):
support either of those Patreon, dot com, slash some more
News and I've got the websites social media with my
name Cody Johnston is there? Your name is Cody Amazing,
Twitter and Instagram and my band the Hot Shapes will
be available quite soon for all listeners to hear our
album about. I'm not gonna joke about it, Cody, I

(58:10):
am as excited now is The Mighty Mighty boss Tones
were when they realized that there was a cultural tragedy
to exploit in order to sell an album, an entire
album about an entire an entire album, my god, my god,
not even like one song, not even a whole album.
Like if there's been one song, I'd be like, well,

(58:32):
you know it was whatever, misguided, but I get it,
like you you you felt the need to express yourself. Okay,
whole album, my god. Anyway, find the guys from the
Mighty Mighty boss Tones and and hit them hm or
like or I go up and say, no, you know
who didn't do ship like this is drop Kick Murphy's

(58:53):
They just beat the funk out of Nazis on stage
because they're right. They're okay, all right. Behind the Bastards
is a production of cool Zone Media. For more from
cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media dot com,
or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,

(59:14):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.