The Class that made 200 Child Nazis

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
M M. Yeah, that was terrible. Now, yeah, Sylvie, how
do I how do I podcast? Uh? Hi, I'm Robert Evans.
Then you're listening Behind the Bastard, the Boston podcast about
the work people from history and today. Uh, that doesn't
sound like something i'd say, my guess. But also host

(00:22):
slash coup slash Garrison. Hi, it's me again on the podcast.
It's another coup episode. Garrison's helping me out because I
have once again taken on enough projects that I'm I'm
terrified about my life. Um so yeah, we're we're doing

(00:43):
another coup episode in honor of Trump's coup. In honor
of Trump's coup. That's exactly what's amazing. Ago We keep
recording these, and coups are still relevant each time we record. O.
Cous are always relevant because never didn't you say Trump's
is not technically a cup because no military? Yeah, I
mean so far, yes, but I do think we're splitting
hairs a little bit. But either way, I love a

(01:04):
good coup. Um, so we're gonna have us. We're gonna
have us another pod coups podcast, Coup Cast and Robert,
how do you feel about Nazis? Uh lukewarm. How do
you feel about child Nazis? Also lukewarm? Okay, because we're
gonna be talking about child Nazis. Oh man, I I was,

(01:27):
I was holding back a little bit. My favorite kind
of nazis your child not I mean, if they're if
we're going to have them, which we should, but if
we are, if they're a little, if they're a little
baby teenagers, baby teenage Nazis, and it is kind of
the funniest cute well like your Garrison brought over his
little baby kitten and it's very cute, and I'm imagining
the kitten with a swastick. It's like a little arm
ball Nazi kitten. So to be so terriful, I know,

(01:49):
I'm irony poison. I did not like that. But more more,
are we talking like Jojo Rabbit, Like, what's the situation
here for kind of kid? No? Okay, So today we're
gonna we're gonna dive into one of the things that
got younger Garrison to actually start to realize that fascism
is like an ongoing and active problem and way more
complicated than just weird people hating Jewish people. Um and uh,

(02:14):
We're we're gonna be learning about and the thing that
that I learned about a few years ago that you know,
got me, you know, to learn more about fascism and
kind of got me interested in the topic. UM is
the accidental five day social experiment done on a group
of teenagers in a California high school. Uh In. This
experiment is referred to as the Third Wave. Some people
may be familiar with this UM. If you're from Germany,

(02:35):
you are because they forced you to learn about it.
UM what with the dubious ethics aside? Looking at how
a charismatic high school teacher got a small group of
impressionable teenagers in the sixties to grow into a group
of dedicated of two hundred like dedicated fascists the course
of just five days. Something we can is something we
can learn from, and you know, it's like still is

(02:57):
still relevant even though this was an experiment done in
the sixties. I mean it sounds like, first off, this
is an incredibly a story of an incredibly ethical teacher. Yeah,
nothing wrong. Yeah, like That's why I started this by
saying ethics aside, because yeah, it kind of messed up
a lot of kids. Sounds really fucked up. Some people
didn't he a lot of Yeah. Like one of the

(03:19):
people that um, the high school teacher became friends with
is um Philip Zimbardwe Zimbardo, Zimbardo Zimbardo. He's the of
the standard experiment a few years later. So yeah, they're
buddies because they boasted highly on ethical experiments. Yeah. Yeah,
Philip Zimbardo is my favorite psychologist because he decided long

(03:41):
ago that it was way more valuable to do things
that were interesting rather than things that were morally defensible.
And I think that's beautiful. Yeah, and I mean yeah,
I mean, the same thing kind of kind of happened here. Um,
all right, well let's let's start this motherfucker garrison. You
know when you do giant pores of liquid that it
does show up. Yeah, Well, the audience wants me to

(04:04):
have coffee, Sophie. I mean, I want you to coffee,
because without coffee, you're just Evans, not Robert. I'm a
Nazi Evans. Yea. Yeah. As soon as as soon as
I get coffee in the morning, I stop understanding the
benefits of national socialism. That's that's the thing that really
gets to have the academic understand the best part of

(04:26):
waking up is no longer believing that Nazism is morally defensible. Yeay, well,
I mean we're gonna be learning a lot about that today,
which is great. Speaking of Nazism, Yeah, when when when
people first learn about like the rise of fascism and
particularly the Nazis. Um. Usually one of the first questions

(04:48):
I hear people you know talk about and ask is like,
how could everyday Germans been so complicit? Why why did
so many people just like let things happen? Um? And
then you know, when you're learning about stuff, at least
when I did, you know, the thought in your mind
is like, oh, surely I would have done something to
stop this from happening. Um. But I mean, if we
look at the last American election, it's pretty clear that
a lot of people, if not the majority, like, would

(05:08):
not take direct action against a rising fascist power in
this country. Um let alone, Let let it in other countries.
I have a feeling, yeah, I have I have an inkling. Um.
But with with that in mind, let's look back to
the late nineteen sixties and the high school classroom of
one Ron Jones and how he quite by accident, made

(05:29):
two hundred child fascists. Um. First, a little background on
Jones himself, since usually different types of fascism have unique
elements drawn from their central leader. Um Ron Jones started
teaching in nineteen sixty six, having recently graduated from Stanford
University UM. He became a high school teacher in Couverly
High School is right outside of San Francisco. Um Jones

(05:53):
quickly became the favorite teacher due to his unique and
unconventional teaching style. He was young, very charismatic, and attractive
of um Jones did not just follow regular curriculums and
just give lectures. He would he would often bring in guests.
UM students recall him bringing in communists, klansmen, members of
the American Nazi Party. Had he actually got on the

(06:14):
phone with with them? With Chairman now in his class,
how did he get on the phone with Could you
just call chairman mau Did he just have like, I'm
not sure that it seems like it would be a
lot of work to get Chairman Aericans also got all
these are great ideas, Like I don't think bringing a
klansman into your classes, bringing a klansman or a Nazi
and dear, I'm not seeing your class. I do think

(06:36):
even I'm not as a rule, if you can get
a world leader on the phone in your high school class,
that's yes, kind of cool. But yeah, but like he
run another like other like you know, Soviet Union stands
from like from America. Yeah, I'm more fascinated by how
the hell he got Chairman Mau on the phone. He
just says he did. I cannot find any explanation. How

(06:58):
see that. I feel like that it's a whole episode,
like how do you Okay, Well, I'm very frustrated by
this man because I want to know how he got
Chairman chair him out on the phone for his class. Yeah, um, yeah,
I mean he was he was very He followed lots
of unconventional teaching, um, you know with with the guests.
He would do like historical like simulations in his class,

(07:20):
like trying to replicate historical events as we see here,
you know, with the Nazi thing. Um. A quote, a
quote from Jones is if if you can feel something
and work with it, that's better than just reading about it.
So he likes a lot of like, Okay, he likes
a lot of learning. That's not that's not you know,
just reading in a book. He actually don't get people
to feel stuff, which I mean successful on the Nazi experiment,

(07:43):
he messed up a lot of kids. Yeah, I mean,
I I agree with the basics of what he's saying,
which is that kids learn everyone learns best by doing,
and if you can give people some sort of direct
experience with the things that are learning about, that's good. Now,
the problem him as that he's teaching them about Nazism,
and I don't know of many ethical ways to give

(08:04):
people experiences with Nazism. It's it's kind of a bad idea. Yeah,
it seems like and Jones probably should have known better because, um,
he was a left wing activist back in the sixties
and you know still is now. Um, he was a
member of the New Left Students for Democratic Society, saying
back in the sixties he was in lots of people
recall him being a very very supportive of the of
the Black Panthers and was and participated a lot in

(08:27):
the anti war movement in the sixties with venom going on.
So like, he showed it kind of known better, But
I think his intentions were good. But it's very quickly
spiraled out of control with this um. But basically he
was basically just the cool, new hip teacher, and students
really really did trust him, and lots of students really
did UM really did like him. UM. So at the

(08:49):
like the last quarter of his first year of teaching UM,
in a twenty five student sophomore world history class, Jones
was talking about Nazi Germany. UM. He was They were
coming to the end of their kind of history section
on the Nazis UM and a student UM asked the
question that most of us do at some point, which is,

(09:11):
you know, how could every German has been complicit? Why
did people do let things happen? UM, And Jones says
he didn't really have a good answer, so he thought
up a short experiment. UM. Now here. This is where
kind of learning about the wave gets a little bit tricky.
There is a lot of you can when you're trying
to research this, there's kind of different accounts of what
happened because no one really, UM was able to you know,

(09:33):
document this as it was happening. Because the people that
did all got beat up by the fascists of who
are trying to you know, the people who were raced
aft down all got kind of beat up. UM. And
I'm pretty sure that actually Jones tried this experiment in
three classes at the same time. But usually when people
talk about the wave, they focus on like the one

(09:53):
first class UM, but there can be a lot of
conflicting information when you talk to like students of this,
So we're going to kind of treat it as just
focusing on this one class. But there may have been
two other classes doing this experiment um concurrently, but it's
kind of unclear. So they were learning about nazis um.
Students asked how the goodness happened. Jones didn't know. He
thought of the experiment the next week, so like the

(10:14):
Monday after because this experiment ran five days. When students
came into the class um on this Monday, Jones had
set up all the chairs and five by five rows,
which is weird for Jones because he usually had a
very loose set up because you know, he was like
the new hip teacher who had you know, students in
his circle or had people on the floor or whatever.
But it's like coming into his class and seeing like

(10:35):
five like five rows of chairs was kind of weird.
UM music by Richard Wagner was playing uh German composer
Wagner Garrison. It's important to pronounce things correct. Wagner, It's
w Richard Wagner's of students were ordered to all sit
in perfect posture with their hands hands hands by other

(10:56):
side and on the chalkboard. Jones wrote, strength through discipline.
So we can kind of see where this is going
to be going. Yeah, he began to lecture the class
on the values of strict discipline. Um speaking on the
efficiency of of like a resimated system, um to quote
to quote, Jones I lectured on the beauty discipline how
an athlete feels, How an athlete feels having worked hard

(11:20):
and regularly successful out of sport. How about how a
ballet dancer or a painter works hard to perfect a movement,
the dedicated patients of a scientist to pursue an idea.
It's discipline, It's self training, control the power of will
in exchange for physical hardships, for superior mental and physical facilities,
the ultimate triumph. Now, this all the text time quoting
Jones from has written from him himself, So all typos

(11:40):
are his fault umberously fair enough, it's not my fault.
He wrote this actually fixed some types. Don't blame me,
blame the teacher who made the Nazis. Um pretty good,
pretty good summary of Nazism without using any of the
nazi is his Nazi terms like yeah, the strike three discipline,

(12:02):
stuff like that's that's very much like a lot of
Hitler Jugen like ship. Jones was very familiar with fascism
as as we see, like he'll be talking, you know,
he'll have sections later on when he take talks about fascism,
it's like, yeah, he understands, he understands what it is
like very well. Um, so what Jones was doing on
the first day, he basically he changed his personality too.

(12:23):
He made him to get He was way more open, playful.
Oh no, no, Robert, look at my cat. Oh no,
uh the cat now has a Nazi bandez band on
my cat tied around its tour So so it's now
a Nazi cat. How someone who someone who was in

(12:46):
my mysteriously has given my my cat anaz which you
mean my cat's name is My cat's name is chairman maow.
And now it's moved to a different type of authoritarianism. Yeah,
it's either way. It's the responsible of deaths. Well, now
it's a very cute little Nazi cat. God we would
post pictures of this online, but we should not. Nope,

(13:07):
don't do it. But not gonna happen. This is really
great audio content, y'all. People are really going to enjoy
this audio content. That there is now a Nazi cat
in in the house walking with the leash, walking with
a leash. It is a very cute kitten, Like, oh
my god, this little kitten, y'all, you gotta you should
see this kitten, I mean not you can see the
kitten on my Twitter not wearing a Nazi not wearing Um,

(13:31):
I'll take that. I'll take that off. That's so cute. Though, again,
this is very good audio content. Doesn't know that it's
wearing it doesn't know it's tied to millions of deaths. Millions. Yeah,
hello body, No, it's just chilling out now now, it's
just chilling the swastika. That's healthy. Yeah, okay, sorry Garrison.

(13:52):
Um yeah, So basically, Jones adopted a very strict personality. Um.
He told the class to only address him as Mr.
Jones as opposed to Ron as I usually call him. Um.
They were. He made rules about how many words you
could use to answer like verbal questions. Um. He said
that students should arrive five minutes before class, um, and
wait in seated position. You know. In this like he
he he talked a lot about like posture and how

(14:15):
better posture leads to better learning, which is you know, dubious,
but he like he knows that he was just you know,
trying to make this like disciplined environment. Um he uh.
Her Jones had his students line up outside the class
and have them enter the class to get into perfect
seating position. And they like drilled this over and over
and over again with it with a timer, you know,
having everyone go outside and everyone you know come back
inside and trying to get into perfect seated position, you know,

(14:38):
very quickly. Um. They drilled this until everyone was perfectly
in sync and got in and sitting under five seconds. UM.
So like he you know, he was trying to introduce
this kind of this the rules of discipline and listening
to authority and just doing things without really any reason
but just listening. And then you know, in this discipline
environment um. As all of Jones's experiments, grades were based

(14:58):
on participation. If you wanted to opt out, you could
just go to the library. Um. On the first day,
everyone participated very very willingly. Um. No one seems to
make a connection to the German history classes that the
class had just completed. Um. The the idea was to
give students a peak into what it was like to
be a regular German under the Nazis by turning the
world history class into just a one day fascist state. Um.

(15:21):
And that's and that's all it was. It was supposed
to just be a one day simulation, and that that
was the next day. The plan was to have, um
just like a discussion over you know what the what
the experiment was. So that was that that was all
Jones wanted to do, which just this one day kind
of experiment into getting used to an environment of discipline
and following a strict leader. That's kind of all it was. UM.

(15:45):
So not not super harmful like first day kind of
kind of all right, it's just a fun one day thing. Um.
But as Jones entered class the next day, all the
students were like waiting inside the class of five minutes early,
and they were all sitting in perfect posture inside all
of the rows in unison. They all chanted good morning,

(16:06):
Mr Jones. And Jones began to wonder how far he
could take this, and he walked over to the chalkboard
and wrote down strength through Community. So this is so
he saw everyone had Like he saw the students were
very like into this, and it's like, huh, I wonder,

(16:27):
I wonder how how much it could turn them into fascists.
And he just decided to do it. And it was
just like a spur of the moment decision because the
experiment was over. They're just like, huh, but if it
isn't over, And I see this doesn't speak well for
him as a person, although I guess maybe it doesn't
speak well for anyone as a person, because maybe the
lesson here is that, um, that there's something intoxicating about

(16:51):
fascism that we can draw anybody in. Jones talks about
this later, how he actually got pulled into the experiment himself.
UM don't like that. Yeah, that's very Simbardo him, which
doesn't make it okay, which is why they're friends. Yeah,
because they're both kind of not great people. Um. So
Jones wrote strength through Community UM on the track board.

(17:11):
Next strength through discipline. UM. To quote quote Jones here,
while the class sat in stern silence, I began to
talk lecture and ceremonized that's a weird word um about
the value of community at this At this stage in
the game, I was debating in my mind whether to
stop the experiment or continue. I hadn't planned on such

(17:32):
intensity or compliance. In fact, I was surprised to find
that that the ideas of discipline were enacted at all.
While debating whether to stop or go on with the experiment,
I talked on and on about community. I made up
stories from my experiences as an athlete, a coach, and historian.
It was easy community being something bigger than oneself, something enjoyable.
They really bought onto that argument. So students were like Jones,

(17:56):
by all accounts, was a very good lecturer. Um. He
is very, very, very engaging, both when he was more
like relaxed and charismatic and both when he was, you know,
putting on this more strict dictatorial character. Um. Jones had
the class all chance together strength your discipline, strength through community,
echoing between pairs of students, getting the whole class in unison,

(18:17):
starting with one person and adding on another personage time,
just a whole much, you know, like community drills of
doing this, you know fashion chance, enjoy this at all
Garrison and it doesn't know where it's going and it's
just progressively getting sentence by sentence where it's it is
kind of predictable. Um, yeah, this might be I don't
want to be like radical here, but this might be

(18:39):
why you shouldn't experiment on profressionable child. Yeah perhaps, I
mean I've carried out some experiments on a child and
it worked out pretty well. But it was a Garrison joke. Yeah,
because I tear gas. I mean, look at look at
me now reading about fascism with my cat with the

(19:00):
slastika band. Yep, everything's going great plan from the start.
You know what won't convert a kitten to national socialism.
The fine folks who make those chips raytheon would never
do that. Uh, and neither will the other sponsors of
this podcast. And we're back, all right, Garrison. The Nazi

(19:30):
arm band is off the kitten. Now that's good. The
kitten has got it off himself. So's most podcasts don't
even radicalize the kitten. So we're really very productive today.
It's impossible to radicalize Anderson. No, Anderson is a committed
anti fascist. He stands fast in. She's a free thinker,

(19:54):
you know, speaking of committed fascism. Um, So after all
of the chanting together in unison and stuff. Um, at
the end of the class, Jones made a terrible decision,
and that decision was to make a class members salute.
Someone really should have talked to him. People did. He

(20:15):
had like rabbis calling him throw this little experiment, and
Jones is like, no, don't worry, it's just an experiment.
They're like, okay, yeah, I don't like this. It's not great. Um.
So the salute here, um Jones made. Students were commanded
to give each other both in and out of class, Like,
whatever two students met, they were supposed to salute each other. Um,
both in school out of school, um Jones. Jones called it.

(20:38):
And now the experiment was also called the third wave.
Now he claims the third wave is not a reference
to the third Reich. Um. He claims it has to
do with like waves and beaches and how like the
third wave is the strongest wave. But I don't I
don't really buy that because it also sounds too much
like a third position, Like there's a lot of there's

(20:58):
a lot of third actually things that involve a third Yeah,
whatever count to three? Never for fascists, two to four, right,
to four if you're going to count if you don't
want to, you know, enable nazism. Um to make the salute,
you brought up your right hand towards your right shoulder
in a curl position. Um. He called it the third
wave or you know, just the wave because the hand

(21:18):
resembled the wave over Like, I I do buy that
part for calling it the wave, but the third part,
I mean it is just you know, that's just come on,
come on, come on, buddy. Um. But just like how
my cat removed its fascist arm band as McNown anti
Fascist Day two is where we also got to see
the start of an anti fascist resistance forming within the school.

(21:40):
It's like, the really cool thing about this experiment, even
though it's highly ethical, is that we've got a really
good microcosm of how fascism develops and how like anti
fascism develops beside it. By the end of the second day,
a student in the class got up and said, Mr Jones,
why can't we just say what we wanted to think?
Why can't we express our own opinions about what we
think about the third wave and the periment um? And

(22:01):
Jones very quickly said, you to the library for the
rest of the semester. So this is the first time
a student got banished from the class. I say first time,
it's not it's not the last time. This student went
to the library UM, and the librarian asked why why
the student wasn't in class. Based on what Jones had
told the students, the student thought that like the whole
staff was in on the experiment, which they were not. UM.

(22:23):
So the student was actually scared to tell the librarian
what happened and why she was there. UM. Now it
just so happened to be that the librarian was born
and raised to Nazi Germany. Uh so when this this
is actually good um. Like, when the student finally told
the librarian what happened, the librarian was very alarmed and

(22:45):
uh and very and very concerned. Um. The librarian told
the student that she has to do something to kind
of stop this um from you know, stop this from
spreading to other students. And the librarian thought this was
very dangerous. UM. So the student went home and talked
to their parents. But what they should do the first time.
Their first idea was to make posters. UM. So that night,
the students father drove her back to the school UM.

(23:06):
Because of how hot the area is around the school,
like the town. All of the hallways are technically outside
of the school, just with like a canopy. So the
student was able to plaster all of the walls with
anti third wave posters. UM. So they filled up the
school with like anti third wave posters. UM. The next morning,
within an hour of school starting, all the posters had

(23:28):
been torn down. UM. And you know there was the
students have admitted to like, you know, like we we
tore down the posters because they were anti third wave.
And then later later that night, it's like on day three,
so we're kind of keeping ahead for here for this UM.
The student returned with a ladder to put up the
posters up where they couldn't be torn down. UM. And

(23:51):
the student had titled their anti third wave resistance UM
the Breakers, which is again in another another wave reference
because the waves. Right, It's like it's all very silly,
like this student is traumatized. And you can hear the
student talk about this experiment later on, like they are
very clearly traumatized by this experience. UM. You love to
see it. Yeah. By day three, so this is this

(24:15):
is Wednesday. So yes, the first day was strngingth to discipline.
Second day was strength through community. Um. By day three,
the class had gained twenty extra students who are interested
in participating in the experiment. That's not how classes are
supposed to work. Why was this allowed? It gives so
much worse. Eventually people from other schools join the class.
It's fad and no one's no one's The school administration

(24:38):
is just like, yeah, he's recreating our campus. Did it happen?
This is fine? So the class had gotten from It's
just like America. Yeah, I mean yes, yeah. So the
class had grown from students to about sixties students by
day three. It's not how schools are supposed to work.

(24:59):
It really isn't. When Jones went into class, the new
phrase he wrote in the track board was strength through action. UM.
So this this, this doesn't get any better. It doesn't
sound like it does. Garrison Jones announced that he was
issuing third wave membership cards, um, which were just were
just they were just index cards he found in his

(25:21):
desk because again he didn't plan this at all and
it was just kind of like going with it. So
he found these next cards and it's like, huh, I
should give the membership cards and it's like without a
second thought for how bad this is. Um So he
gave everyone third Wave membership cards UM to every student
who decided to continue the experiment. All students were still

(25:43):
continuing at this point, UM three cards Jones secretly marked
with a red X, which meant that these students were
informants and were instructed to tell Jones if any students
were not following the third Wave rules um or, as
a student referred to them as in a in a
document nary, the third Wave community values Jesus Christ. It's

(26:07):
really bad. It doesn't seem good. So like you know,
if if if students, if if like one of these
informants saw someone, you know, like not not salute them
in the hallway or you know, not to ext not
do why they were you know, they were supposed to
tell Jones um Es. Jones lectured the class on direct
action and in Jones's own words, how discipline and community

(26:29):
were meaningless without action, which is definitely not something Hitler
would say. He then gave the class different direct action assignments,
varying from passing out third Wave flyers and posters outreach
other students and other schools and setting up info tables
in the hallways. UM, it's sorry. I shouldn't be laughing,

(26:52):
but it is. It is kind of terrible to quote Jones.
To allow students to have the experience of direct action,
I gave each individual a special verbal assignment. Quote. It's
your task to design a third Wave banner. You are
responsible for stopping any student that's not a Third Way
member from entering the room. I want you to remember
and be able to recite tomorrow the names of each
member and addresses of each member. I want you to

(27:15):
this is good. You're a side of the problem of
training and training and convincing at least twenty children in
the adjacent elementary school that are sitting posture is necessary
for better learning. It's your job to read the pamphlet
and report on its entire content to the class tomorrow.
I want you to give me the name and address
of one reliable friend that you think will want to
join the Third Wave, etcetera, etcetera. BA see a list

(27:35):
of all these terrible things you got students to do. UM.
To conclude the session on direct action, I'm this is
still quoting Jones here. UM. I instructed students in a
simple procedure for initiating new members. It went like this,
a new member had to be only recommended by an
existing member and issued an I D Card by myself.
Upon receiving his card, he's now a new member and

(27:56):
had to demonstrate knowledge of our rules and pledge obedience
to them. My announcement unleashed a fervor. Is how he
ends that section when he talks about this UM. So
students were very into it UM because these are like
fifteen year olds in the sixties. UM, and we we're
gonna talk more about why the experiment worked at the
end and like why it works so well. But like

(28:16):
you know, people people were very were people were very
into this UM. The result to this call to action
was recruiters at these infor tables were starting fistfights with
people who didn't want to join UM. And great, yeah,
there's like multiple just like brawls in the hallway over
people like not wanting to join the third wave. UM.
This is all making me wonder if maybe the original

(28:38):
Nazism was a social experiment that just got out of hand.
Hitler was like, I don't know, I guess I got
to invade a couple of country ship he just had to.
It was trying to keep up the act because everyone
is so involved. UM. Even though only three people got
the red X on their cards, way more than three
people were turning in names of people breaking the rules.
Jones recalls, though I formally appointed only three students to

(29:00):
report a bad behavior, approximately twenty students came to me
with reports about how Alan didn't salute, or Georgina wasn't
wasn't into the experiment and talking critically about it. This
instance of monitoring UH meant that half of the class
members now considered it their duty to report and observe
all other members of the class as a student. A

(29:21):
student recalls, you never know who's gonna come in the
next morning and turn you in. All lines of student
communication were broken down because of this fear. What a
good history class this was. But I find it really
fascinating how even though you know it was such you know,
the strength or community and whatever, how like they're all
at the all out of the actual community, all broke

(29:42):
down over fear of people turning each other in. UM,
which is, you know, very accurate to what actually happened
in Germany. UM sounds like a again, just a real
good high school history class. Uh. Trials were held for
members that were seen breaking rules. Yeah, that's because that's
what like I you know, I remember my favorite part

(30:03):
of high school was the trials that we would hold
for each other after informing on each other and oh,
I've got enough. Now the kitten, everybody for this great
audio content now has a little antipha band around its back.
So the kitten has been de radicalized and it now
shows the fervor of a convert in fighting. It's it's

(30:23):
old ideology. This has really been quite an arc for
a very like like what a four month old kitten
twelve weeks, twelve weeks, a little baby, very small. Oh
you're so good, very very happy. You're so good. Yeah.
So you didn't have trials in your high school because
again I was homeschooled, and we we we had some

(30:45):
show trials, you know, we we there were a couple
of executions. It was over it was over football. I
grew up in Texas, So okay, yeah that's the one
with the with the with the never mind Okay, um yeah.
Trials um uh. They were held for members scene breaking rules,
members that were just joking about the third Wave or

(31:07):
or being seen with quote known revolutionary Scott. Damn it,
that's a good, good work teaching teacher guy Ron Jones.
I can see again it makes so much sense that
Philip Simbardo likes this guy because they are both monsters
who view the brains of other human beings. Simbardo often
brings Jones into his class to teach. See. I love

(31:31):
Philip Simbardo because whenever he comes up in a story,
you know things are about to get interesting. He's that
kind of character. But also he shouldn't be allowed to teach.
He shouldn't. He shouldn't be allowed to do anything. He's
a terrible person. Now. Um so in these trials, basically,
um Jones, or like a senior class member, would read
aloud the alleged offense, the entire class would immediately chant

(31:54):
of guilty. All in unison, or in the accused was
banished to the library. Um I love that there's now
banishments and again a high school history quest. Yeah, it's
like the library became a concentration camp. If you weren't
catching on to where this was leading, I mean, as
concentration camps go, that's not the worst, better than most
concentration camps. Thank you for making ethical concentration camps. Um.

(32:20):
Several students elected themselves like me saying ethical concentration camps there,
grass fed. That's not a not a great buy local
when you buy a concentration camp. So I mean Powell's
Books was just one concentration camp. I wouldn't complain. They
have coffee and books. It's exactly. Pell's Books is a
large bookstore. When when the Proud Boys take over Portland

(32:41):
and they sent me to the Powell's Books right now. Yeah,
none of this is very good. Oh don't worry, I
can I can make it much worse by reading my script. Good. Yes,
please continue. Several students elected themselves to become bodyguards for Jones,
and they made their own black out an ass, they
made their own black art vents. Yeah, so he he

(33:03):
has spontaneously his students developed an SS their own arm bits. Yeah. Yeah,
that's great. Like parents were like questioning their kids about
why they had armed bents, like no, no, no, it's
it's it's too it's to protect Mr Jones. It's just
part of the experiment. They called Jones very concerned, and

(33:25):
Jon just like, no, don't worry, We're just we're just
studying the German psyche, is what he told them. Yeah. See,
I would have additional questions as a parent, not to
backseat parents, because I I've never had a kid, but
I think I would have questions at that point in
the experiment, like what the fund is wrong with you?
And why are you a teacher? Was very offended by

(33:45):
the sentence you just said, yeah, my kid, you've never
had a kid. I had a baby your leg, Therigen's
eyes are closed. The Antifa kittens sleeping on my leg. Now,
my cat is not going to be happy, but she'll
learn because I want her to raise a kitten and

(34:07):
teach it. All that chos um and because all of
the quotes from Jones have just been amazing and full
of typos um, but also you know, really really interesting
and terrible. I'm gonna do another one, and this one
is actually pretty long. Um. Many of the students were
completely into being third Wave members. They demanded strict obedience
of the rules from other students and believed those that
took the experiment lightly others simply sunk into the activities

(34:31):
and took on self assigned rules. I particularly remember my
students Robert Um Robert was big for his age and
displayed very few academic skills. Um. Oh, he he tried
harder than anyone else to be successful. Remember this for later.
It is actually very important. Um. But but he handled
in the He handed in elaborate week weekly reports, copied

(34:53):
word for word from from reference books to the libraries.
But he just he just wasn't wasn't very academically skilled. Actually, um, Robert,
like so many other kids in school, didn't excel or
cause trouble. They aren't that bright. They can't make the
athletic teams. They don't strike out for attention. They're lost invisible.
And the only reason why I came to know Robert
at all is that I often found him eating lunch
in my classroom because he always ate alone. Um. Well,

(35:17):
the third Wave gave Robert a place in the school.
He was at last equal to everyone else. He could
do something, be a part, be meaningful, and that's what
Robert did. Late Wednesday afternoon, I found Robert following me
and I asked. I asked him what, what in the
world he was doing? He smiled and announced, Mr Jones,
I'm your bodyguard. I'm afraid something will happen to you.

(35:37):
He followed me everywhere in the faculty room, which was
close to students. Um, he stood silently at attention as
I gulped down coffee. When accosted by an English teacher
for being, you know, for having a student in the
in the in the teacher's room, he just smiled at
her and informed her that he wasn't a student, he
was a bodyguard. Yeah. Yeah, well more just like that's

(36:03):
how the SS got started. It was initially Hitler's bodyguard,
Like that's what it was, and then it turned into
kind of a state within the state. Yeah, and so
this spontaneously generated Heinrich Himbler. Yeah, so it started with
Robert and then um, a group of a group of
seniors from another one of Jones's classes who were interested
in the experiment. And they were kind of they were
part of like the car club quote unquote. They they

(36:24):
all wear like leather jackets and worked on cars because
they were cool. They all became the rest of his bodyguards,
putting on the black arm bands. Um, and they like
just they like just beat up random students. Um. Yeah,
they were not that cool at Um, they kind of sucked,
but yeah, like well we'll we'll hear more over this
at the end. But like Jones talked a lot about
how like the people who really got into the wave

(36:45):
were all the students in the middle, people who were
not great at school, weren't terrible at school, all people
who just kind of barely coasted by, and I like
gave them something to be in and something something something
to do. Um, you know, for people like this this
Rubbert person who finally was able to you know, I
feel like he had some kind of meaning in in school. Yeah.
I mean, it's like we talked about in the Little
Nazis episode. It's the little men who was to whom

(37:09):
Nazi appealed the most. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, Well,
we'll we'll talk a lot about this at the end. Actually,
there's a lot of there's a lot of really interesting
parallels there. Um. By the morning of day four, so again,
we've we've already had strength through discipline, strength through community,
strength through action. We've had fistfights and hallways, people trying

(37:29):
to get kids from other elementary schools to join again,
not even high schools, elementary schools. By the morning of
day four, Jones started to realize that he kind of
lost control of the experiment. Earlier that night, a father
of a student who I whom I believe to actually
be the first person kicked out of class and who
the person who made like the third wave posters I believe.
I think I'm pretty sure it was actually her father,

(37:51):
UM broke into the classroom and ransacked it. Um to
to to quote Jones, he was a retired Air Force
colonel who spent a lot of time in a German
prison war camp. UM, upon hearing of our activity, he
simply lost control. Late into the evening, he broke into
the classroom and tore it apart. I found him that morning,
propped up against the classroom door. He told me about

(38:13):
his friends that had been killed in Germany. He was
holding on to me and shaking. He pleaded with me
that I understand and I try to help him get home.
I called his wife and with the help of a neighbor,
walked him home. We spent hours later talking about why
he why he did what he did, and what he
was feeling at the time. Um. But from that moment
on Thursday morning, I was very concerned. Umbo was about

(38:37):
what might be happening in school. So you your your
your self appointed should staffel are beating up kids in
the school like you have informants and show trials, but
you you weren't concerned. Then you finally get concerned when
a Holocaust survivor tears up your classroom. Yeah, it's I

(38:57):
don't know this is true or not, because this this
is a thing only Jones talks about and he seems credible. Um,
But on day three Jones claims how he got the
extra bodyguards. Besides, Robert Um was like the members of
his car club beat Jones up and threw him in
a dumpster and demanded that they beat his bodyguards, and
he said, yes, Now I have no way to very.

(39:20):
I didn't put this in the script because I don't
actually think it happened. That seems like, well, he doesn't
seem like a credible person, but it may have happened,
which I think is like, if that happened, that should
have been this line that things were getting out of control.
There are so many red flags here. He should have
he should I mean, he never should have started this,
but he's certainly like there were a lot of points

(39:41):
it was clear that this was bad. Before the Holocaust
survivor destroyed his classroom. Yeah. So at this point, this
is like the morning of day four, Um, the third
wave was nearing one active members, which isn't how school works.
He shouldn't have a hundred student and senior class and
armed part of your class. Um. And the experiment was

(40:03):
also affecting Jones. Um. He reports feeling like relaxed in
his dictatorial position. The character he was putting on was
becoming his default personality. Even his wife had like it
was like getting him to be like, hey, uh, you
see you seem a little different at home. What's going on?
It seems like you might have accidentally recreated Nazism. Um. Yeah,

(40:26):
the way you had taken over a students lives, um,
and how the whole school kind of operated. Um. Jones
decided he needed to end it, But he didn't want
to just end the experiment all of a sudden. He
wanted there to be a conclusion and closure for participants. Um.
Jones wrote, if I stopped the experiment, a great number
of students would be left hanging. They committed themselves in

(40:48):
front of their peers to this radical behavior. Emotionally and psychologically.
They had exposed themselves. If I suddenly jolted them back
to the classroom. The reality that would face them would
be um confusion over the whole student body that would
remain for the rest of the year. It would be
too painful and demeaning for someone like Robert and the
students like him to be twisted back into into a
seat and told it was just a game. They would

(41:10):
be They would be ridiculed by the brighter students and
for their for the participation. And I couldn't let people
like Robert lose again. UM, which is I think not
a terrible Yeah. I mean, once you have recreated fascism
in your classroom and have people who have dedicated their
lives to it, you do have to You can't just

(41:31):
say we're done now, like yeah, yeah, but did you
radicalize the students you radicalized, like we de radicalized this kitten.
But jones solution to this, UM is very perplexing from
a standpoint of trying to limit the psychological damage and
whiplash coming from this extreme simulation back to the classroom. UM,
because I think what he did actually made things way worse. UM.

(41:55):
But it's very it's very fascinating what happened from fro
an experimental standpoint, but it's again. I think this is
way worse than just pulling the plug, uh Joan. In class,
Jones announced that the Third Wave isn't just a school experiment.
It's a new national political movement. In Jones's words, quote,
across the country, teachers like myself have been recruiting and

(42:18):
training a youth brigade capable of showing the nation a
better society through discipline, community, pride, and action. If we
can change the way a school is run, we can
change the way that factories, stores, universities, and all other
institutions are run. You are a selected group of young
people chosen to help in this cause. If you will
stand up and display what you have learned in the
past four days, we can change the destiny of this nation.

(42:41):
We can bring in a new sense of order, community pride,
and action, a new purpose. Everything rests on you and
your willingness to take a stand. This doesn't sound like
the radicalversation, Garrison. So yeah, like, no, everything you talked
about for trying to know East under the experiment, this

(43:01):
is not doing it. But that's all Jones um then
to quote malidify the seriousness of my words. Quote his words.
Um ordered his bodyguards to escort um, three of them
more intellectually astute students who had been dubious about the
Third Wave. So his after he makes this big announcement

(43:23):
and big lecture, he orders his guards to take three
people to the library um um and was and was
told the bodyguards to never let them re enter the class.
Jones then further explained that the next day there was
to be a special Third Wave members only rally. At noon,
there was to be a nationwide broadcast um formally announcing

(43:44):
the new political party and introducing a presidential candidate. Quoting
Jones quote, Over one thousand youth groups from every part
of the country would stand up and display their support
for such a movement. There were to be students selected
to represent their area. Um I questioned if they can
make a good showing because press had been invited to
record the event. No one laughed. There was not a
murmur of resistance. Quite the contrary, A fever pitch of

(44:06):
excitement swelled across the room. So I really don't know
what why he thought this would calm things over. Yeah, No,
that doesn't seem like an attempt to de radicalize. It's
very I think I think Jones's plan here and what
happened I think made everything much worse, made the trauma
much worse. Um. And and to make things even more
you know, unfortunate. Um, by pure happenstance, a student had

(44:28):
a copy of the Time magazine from that month, um,
and it had a full page ad for a lumber product.
But the ad was just in big red, white and
blue lettering the Third Wave is coming. So like there's
this horriful coincidence that got them all to believe this
is like all very legit. Um. With the class convinced,

(44:51):
Jones set a time for this for this member members
only rally. UM. It was gonna be Friday, so for
them was tomorrow at noon. Members were told either ten
minutes early, waiting for press, in proper seating position, and
be there to quote display the discipline, community and pride
that you have all learned. The class was instructed to
not to tell any Third Way members about this. UM.

(45:15):
So yeah, that was Jones's idea to de estate things
to day before was to prepare kids for this national
announcement and this big rally on the next day. UM.
Oh god, not what I would have done. I think
I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have let the experiment gets
to this point anyway. No, but it seems like his
attempt to de radicalize them was to convince them that
they were part of a national movement, which questionable call.

(45:37):
But you know what's not a questionable call, Garrison of
buying all the dick pills, buying dick pills or whatever
whatever else advertises on our show. Uh products are the
only pathway to de radicalize Nazis. Services remarket, capitalism the
only thing that gets Nazis to become no longer, not historically,

(45:58):
that's true. Capitalism de radicalizes fasci Okay, well here's some ads. Alright,
we're back. Okay, So he's he's he's he's told his
he's gotten scared because he recreated fascism. Uh. And now

(46:20):
there's a concentration camp in the library, and also his
uh students are he's attempted to de radicalize them by
telling them they're part of a nationwide movement to change
the character of the country. No notes, Okay, now they're
going to have a big meeting and he's going to
tell them all to stop being fascist. Right, that's gonna
happen now what happens? Yes, okay, Um, But throughout the week,

(46:45):
a school reporter was trying to find out about the
third Wave. UM. But whenever he asked questions about it,
two people they just wouldn't talk. Um until he got
ahold of the librarian. Um after the rally was announced. UM.
So we basically you gotta lead of what was happening
through the library because again all the students were banished
were sent to the library. After the rally was announced. Um,

(47:05):
two of the third Wave bodyguards went into the school
journalism office and beat up the reporter. God damn it,
he did a good job remaking Nazism, the people wearing
the black arm bands. It definitely wasn't his job, but
he did it. Um, telling telling After they beat about,

(47:29):
they told him not to write about the Third Wave
or the upcoming rally, which yet I guess learned a
little bit about. UM. So yeah, that was the state
of that. UM. If you're, you know, trying to keep
a tally going on, how on how well the fashism
is working? Um? So Day five, Friday morning, the final day,
the school auditorium was plastered with Third Wave banners and posters,

(47:49):
like everywhere UMNT third Way members began already arriving and
filling up the seats. At noon, the auditorium held over
two hundred Third Wave memberss SO again, this class started
with twenty five people and it grew to an auditorium
filled with two hundred Nazis um over over five days.
Um SO. They were waiting to hear the national announcement

(48:11):
of the new political party and their presidential nominee. UH
Jones had several of his friends in the room posing
as reporters taking pictures, and he also set up a
TV in the middle of the room. As a clock
struck twelve, the bodyguards closed all the doors and were
stationed in front of all the exits. I don't know
why this happened, but everyone reports that it did, so

(48:33):
it probably happened, um Jones. Jones says quote. Uh says
to the class before turning on the national press coverage,
which begins in five minutes, I want to demonstrate to
the press the extent of our training. He then moves
his arm up to salute. Two hundred arms follow all
the same time. Apparently, also, one student on day four

(48:56):
suggested they all wore white shirts, which they did on
this last day. So it's like, you know, very unite
the right ish with two hundred people all wearing white
shirts doing this Nazi salute. Yeah. Um. Jones says, strength
through discipline, and the students all in unison repeat back.
The phrase gets recited over and over, each time getting louder. Um.

(49:19):
At twelve oh five, Jones orders lights turned off, walks
over to the television set and turns it on. The
white static illuminates their room just enough to see the
faces of the students. UM. Robert, the bodyguard is standing
beside Jones. Jones tells him to watch the watch the
students faces closely. Minutes pass nothing, nothing happens, the TVs on.
Minutes passed, there's nothing, you know, nothing's turning on. Um.

(49:42):
The students are in a trance watching the television. Eventually,
one student stands up in yells there is no party leader,
is there. The class turns in shock to look at
the student, and then looks back at the television. Um.
The other d students were all silent um, some of them,
but some of their posture was relaxing back to normal.
Jones turns out it turns out the television and says

(50:02):
to the students, there is no leader, there's no such
thing as a national youth movement called the third Wave.
Let me show you your future. Jones turns on a
projector right beside the TV and on the wall images
and a film flash on the wall of Hitler Nazi
rally's Third Reich marching with with their trained discipline, people
being put into train cars off to off to death camps.

(50:24):
UM and so Jones begins lecturing, as as this as
this UM film about the Nazis, UM plays, and the
kids just like completely quiet just watching this UM. Some
of them are. They're completely quiet right now. Eventually they
all start breakdown and crying wonderful yeah, like nowhere like protests,

(50:46):
like everyone's everyone's very kind of feeling bad. Um so UM.
As Jones is like starting his lecture, the film UM
finishes and Free System hold on a single written frame
that says everyone must accept the blame. No one can
claim they didn't in some way take part. Jones says
to the class, you and I are no better or

(51:08):
worse than the German Nazis that we've been studying. You
thought you were better than those outside this room. You
bargained away your freedom for the comfort of discipline and superiority.
We will watch our neighbors be taken away and do nothing.
We are just like those Germans. We would give up
our freedom for the chance of being special. Um Jones.
Then I think, as you should have expressed his remorse

(51:31):
and apologized to the class for all the trauma that
he had cost um. But he decides to give one
kind of final lecture to kind of I know, trying
to smooth things over to begin. This has already gone
way too far and has made too many bad choices
up to this point. But this is this is the
last thing he does for this experiment. Um, here's a

(51:52):
Here's a here's a paragraph. A paragraph from Jones. Here.
Through the experiment last week, we've all tasted what it
was like to live and act on or Nazi Germany.
We learned what was like to create a disciplined social environment,
to build a special society, pledge allegiance to that society,
replaced reason with rules. Yes, we would have all made
good Germans. We would have put on the uniform and

(52:14):
turned our heads as friends and neighbors were cursed then persecuted.
We all know, in a small way what it feels
like to find a hero, to grab a quick solution,
to feel strong and in control of destiny. We know
the fear of being left out, the pleasure of doing
something right and being rewarded, to be number one, to
be right, to be taken taken to the extreme. As

(52:34):
we've seen and perhaps felt what those actions will lead to,
we each have witnessed something over the past week. We
have seen that fascism is not just something that other
people do. Know. It's right here in this room. It's
in our own personal habits, and it's it's in our
way of life. Scratch the surface, and it appears something
in all of us. We carry it like a disease.
The belief that human beings are basically evil and therefore

(52:55):
unable to act well towards others. That's what fascism breeds on.
It's the belief, a belief that demands a strong leader
and discipline to preserve a social order which is is
not not not a terrible No. I mean, he's right,
but he shouldn't. Yeah, it's a weird thing to say
after creating fascism, But he's not wrong about the thing

(53:19):
that he created. Yeah yeah, um he he he he
finishes up. Um this you know this this small talk
the same way this all started. Um. He asked the class,
if they, like the regular Germans, will claim ignorance and
claim non involvement um quote. If our enactment of the

(53:40):
fascist mentality is complete, not one of you will ever
admit to being at this final third wave rally. Like
the Germans, you will have trouble admitting to yourself that
you've come this far. You will not allow your friends
and parents to know that you were willing to give
up individual freedom and power um for for the dictates
of this social of the social order and unseen leaders.
You can't admit to be manipulated, to being a follower um,

(54:02):
to accepting the Third Way as your way of life.
You won't admit to participating in this madness. And you'll
probably keep this uh this day and this rally secret,
a secret that I will share with you, which Jones
was eventually wrong about. Um. Jones himself wrote about this
in semi detail about like four years later, after meeting
a student like while shopping who gave him a third

(54:24):
wave of salute and they kind of got him upset.
Then he wrote down like, oh yeah, he got upset
about the fascism. Yeah. So then then he wrote an
essay about it. Um. But students definitely do talk about it. Well,
we'll actually we'll hear from some students in a in
a bit. Um. But Jones turned off the projector um.
That you know, it's it's that's still had. Everyone must

(54:47):
accept the blame. No one can claim that they weren't involved,
or no one can claimed that they didn't in some
way take part. So he turn turns out the turns
out the projector um. Then he then he sees Robert
who was sobbing, um, as many others to were as well.
Jones hugged Robert as he was crying, and slowly students
left the auditorium. And that's the experiment. So that that
was what happened. That was that was the five day

(55:09):
That was the five days permanently damaged some kids, he did.
There's a lot of yeah, a lot of kids now
they're like adults in their fifties and sixties. Um, But yeah,
they a lot of a lot of people think it
was a good experiment experience for them as a kid.
But a lot of people say, no, this did your
reversible damage. Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting experiment and

(55:31):
a useful one if you want to study fascism. But
it's bad that he did it too small children, yes,
to fifteen year olds mainly. Yeah. Um, so now we're
left wondering why was the experiment kind of so effective,
especially for being only five days. Um. Now, I do
think Jones had a pretty solid understanding of fascism in
some ways, and um, he actually explains a lot of it. Um. Well, um,

(55:54):
this is this. This is a quote for Jones. This
is a quote from Jones. You have to understand the
times there was a radical no sorry, there was racial
integration taking place in the high school for the first time. Um,
and that through the school kind of upside down, and
all of the young men were facing the draft when
when they graduated, I was I was basically promising I
can make you safe again. Um. This was written before

(56:17):
Trump ran. So yeah, it's just you know, just a good,
good thing to a good thing to think of. Was
the whole I can make you safe again thing? Um?
Multiple students yeah, yeah, Um. Multiple students bring up Vietnam
as a heavy contributing factor for why they you know,
fell into this, especially like bought into like the whole

(56:39):
national movement thing. Um. And as well, of course Jones
had a lot of natural charisma and strength as as
a leader. Um, this is a quote from a student.
A big reason I went along with it was my
trust for Jones, and I was just beginning to feel
better about Vietnam and the experiment seemed like we could
change the government responsible for hurting us. There was a
feeling that something really remarkable was going to happen of

(57:01):
going on throughout the whole country, and the movement was
going to change politics, change the structure of the school.
The combination of everything just made it happen. And a
lot of a lot of the men who talk about
what it was like in the experiment bring up the
fear of Vietnam being, you know, a pretty a pretty
um heavy factor for why they you know, bottle bought
into the growing up into a world that seems dangerous

(57:26):
and unhealthy for you, and uh so you embrace a
strong man and a hope that he can bring things
back to an imagined past that you barely remember from
your childhood. Yeah, yeah, that seems okay. Um. The other
thing that Jones makes a note of is who really
thrived under under the wave. And it's those people like

(57:47):
Robert Um, the ones that neither excelled in school nor
cause much trouble Um, quoting Jones, I was accustomed to
very intelligent girls UM and the troublemakers in the back
of the room. But what the wave generated was a
major rule with a great majority UM who stayed quiet
and got and barely got through school. I realized that
as a teacher, I had probably ignored them for the

(58:07):
most part, and all of a sudden, Um, this great,
massive energy took place, and they were all brilliant in
their own way. So it was the people that were
never were neither really good at school nor terrible, just
as people kind of barely like barely getting by Um.
In another interview, Jones says it was the middle group
that became energized. They became the winners for a brief moment,

(58:29):
and that that that's the thing. That's also the thing
that the two things that come up the most often
when reading about this from students and teach other teachers,
and the principle was one being Vietnam. Oh yes, also
Jones being very charismatic UM. But the other one was
like it gave this middle group that were kind of
being ignored at the time released something to do, and
that's what they really latched onto. Um. Yeah. And the

(58:54):
next step I did, after doing all the research for
the for like the third Wave stuff, was just doing
you know, a brief a brief um re entry into
you know, fascist studies to kind of see if I
can pick up any other um similarities between what Jones
did and what these people you know talk about as
being the traits or passions of fascism. Um. So I

(59:15):
was looking at Robert Paxton's um work for the underlying
passions um Yeah, and author of Anatomy of Fascism, which
is one of the best academic treatments of the subject. Yeah. Um.
And almost every every passion he has usually maybe his
theories that one of his theories is that passion fascism
basically is caused by these you know, these feelings that

(59:37):
we have in humans and then that causes us to
do different actions. Um. And all the passions that he
talks about that kind of cause passism to happen are
all present in some degree. Um. For the third Wave. UM,
we obviously had the supremacy of the group which is
one of the one of the traits. Um. The Vietnam
War was definitely the overwhelming crisis that traditional solutions couldn't

(59:59):
fix for a to like the men at least there
um for all, like the teenagers who were like facing
the draft who didn't want to go. Um. There was
a little bit of group victimization with the warring poster wars,
but not as much. Um. We we definitely had an
authority of the male leader, which was which was Jones. Um.

(01:00:19):
We definitely had the superiority of the leader's words over
abstract and universal reason. In his announcement of the Third
Wave like rally and Jones even says during his final
lecture that you know, in times of uncertainty, it's easy
to replace reason with rules. So yeah, it's like this
this this thing that you know, we replace our natural
logical thought process with this undying devotion to this leader

(01:00:42):
no matter what, no matter how crazy things they say.
Is that you still believe it because they're offering you
something in exchange, which of course we can also you know,
tie it to the president and stuff. Um. In terms
of the love of violence, the violence was minimal, but
it was definitely there. I mean there were there were
there there were fift pits on the halliway, is they
beat up that school reporter? Well, I mean it could

(01:01:05):
have been worse, I think, I mean it could have
been what happened to Nazi Germany. Yes, there could have
been genicided the perspective of this being a high school
history class, I don't know how much worse it realistically
could have been, right in terms of high school history
class where five days there was a lot of violence. Um. Um.

(01:01:25):
The other two passions that Paxton talks about our dread
of the group's decline under corrosive effects of individualistic um uh,
liberalism and the need for closer integration into a pure community. Um.
And this is where things get a little bit more complicated, um.
Because a defining aspect of fascism is that it's self

(01:01:45):
contradictory and ideologically inconsistent. And the way that I often
see that surface and fascism is that how fascism is
both heavily individualistic and heavily group oriented and community driven
as BC from like you know, the strength through community
kind of chance and stuff. Um. But I think part
of this, part of part part of how this works
is that the idea of community um and the idea

(01:02:09):
of being in this special group. It basically gives you
the opportunity to pursue being an individual hero. It's like
this weird is fake support system that lets you be
this individual person. It's the same thing we're seeing. It's
the same thing we see with like the Proud Boys
and with these other sort of the same thing with police,
Like the police if you look, if you look at
like the warrior training they do. Yes, it's both like, no,

(01:02:31):
you have to help out the officers within like a moment,
you can't question them. It's part of this very community
driven thing. But also they're training to be the individual
warrior sitting on a rooftop with their cape flying in
the wind. That it's it's both of those aspects. The
good old fashioned cult of the hero that is uh
kind of central to American culture because it's very easy
to market because you can sell people body armor and

(01:02:53):
guns and all the gear that they need to make
themselves into a hero. But then they don't have anybody
to fight and kill because that's what we say heroes do,
So they start going out into the streets and finding
people to do it too. Yeah, it's great, it's very
good speaking of cult of the hero, which is um
the other kind of main scholar of fascism, which um
em Bert to echo, one of his fourteen traits of
fascism is the cult of the hero Um. And then

(01:03:17):
the so the next after I looked into Paxiston, Um,
the other I looked over I brick, you know, browsed
over Bert to Echos fourteen traits and tied a few
of them pretty clearly. Some some of them don't fit
as perfect because of how small and young the third
wave was like. It didn't you know, a lot of
a lot of Paxistan's trade and a lot of them

(01:03:38):
Echoes traits are for like actual political parties, um, which
they didn't quite get too. But you can definitely see
the seeds being planted there. Um. Of course we have
we have the cult of tradition, which with with the
third waves emphasis on creating discipline and creating those traditions themselves, Um.
Rejection of modernism and going back to the old strict
teaching style and away from the loose modern style of

(01:03:59):
the late sixties and started the style that like Jones
was really into, which was you know, the very loose
experimental thing um, the cult of action for action's sake,
with basically the folks of the whole day, remember the
whole strength through Action day, which so that that definitely happened. Um.
Disagreement was absolutely treason, as people were banished to the
library for just you know, questioning the experiment um. And

(01:04:19):
as Jones mentions, there were appeals to social frustration with
the new racial integration in the school um and the
looming draft um Jones rights of fascism quote. Facism is
always a possibility because it's so simple that people are frustrated,
they lose their jobs, their dignity, their sense of worth,
and someone comes along and says, hey, I've got this answer. Um.

(01:04:41):
So the rest of the rest of Berdaco straits like
the fear of difference, obsession with the plot enemy being
strong and weak, contempt for the week life is warfare,
which is mon wereponary, selective populism, and new speak. Again,
those get into a little specifically. These get a little
too specifically international politics um to make really easy comparisons
to the Third Wave. But I can definitely see the
seeds being planted there with the Jones talking about the

(01:05:03):
third waves like National Party and stuff. Um, I think
those would have absolutely developed very quickly. Especially I think
you can even you know, Michi's mown referee to some degree,
with like the whole car club becoming bodyguards themselves. Um,
and there was there was definitely a little bit of
new speed going on. Uh. Now Jones does regret doing
the experiment, um as he's he says almost any every

(01:05:26):
interview he talks, he you know, when he talks about it,
saying it was way too dangerous and way way too damaging.
Um yeah, yeah, yeah, um. But he still recommends people,
you know, actually study and learn from it since like
since since since it did happen, you may as well,
you know, focus on it and like I learned about it.
But he does, he doesn't, he doesn't regret doing it
um um. In fact, reading a book on the waves

(01:05:49):
actually required reading in Germany for like all schools, they're
required to they're required to read a whole book about
the wave because Germany actually cares about not fostering a
culture of fashions him. Um yeah, just kind of just
it's just it's just a fun little circle there from
learning about Germany and their world history class to the
learning about You fucked up so badly that Germany decided

(01:06:12):
to make what you did a cautionary tale about the
required thing for school. Yeah, that's good being a teacher. Congratulations.
Many students look back on the experiment as a positive
learning experience. Um. One student became who became a filmmaker,
made a whole documentary on the topic and interviewed a

(01:06:34):
lot of interviewed alat of students. Um. But there are many,
many students and a lot of parents who are very
upset at Jones for the experiment and thought it was
way too damaging for their young pigs. Yeah some big shock. Um.
Two years after the experiment um ended, Jones was denied
tenure at the school and was fired. Um that but

(01:06:59):
here's but but here is here's kind of the twist. Um.
Jones was fired under pressure from the conservative parents, conservative
school board, and the principal who accused Jones of indoctrinating
students into radical leftism instead of just teaching them. Um.
He was fired for being a socialist, and he was
fired for his links to his anti war activism. Oh

(01:07:20):
so not for he wasn't physic spermon. He was fired
for being a political activist and quote unquote indoctrity students
until being like leftists. Um, yeah, they were. Actually they
were actually huge student protests when news broke that Jones
Jones was being fired because he was still by far
the most popular teacher in the school. Um, got, all

(01:07:40):
of this is so bad, all of this bodes so
ill for the human condition. Awesome, fantastic. I like the
thing he should have gotten fired for it is the
fascist experiments. Was was making a concentration camp in the library,
or maybe when his bodyguards were beating people. He shouldn't

(01:08:01):
have been fired for turning kids into commies, but like
not by not by experiment. He should have been fired
for like turning children into into anything really like you
shouldn't be yes, but like ideologically brainwashing children either way.
But the communism wasn't the problem, no, And he wasn't
doing experiments to lead people into communism. He was just teaching.

(01:08:23):
He was they big, he was just actually like he
was fired for just teaching a history class and actually
you know, learning about you know, the labor movement and
stuff like that. And conservative parents didn't like that. Um,
And the principal says, you know, the principle says he
fired him because he was, you know, the way he
was teaching students about you know, um like radical movements. UM.

(01:08:47):
Students were becoming too sympathetic to these like you know,
racial justice causes and like labor rights causes. UM. So
that's why he was fired. UM. The Raves since been
adapted into a few books in East TV film a
focus of multiple documentaries, one of which being made by
a student. UM. They made a whole German live action
film on it UM and a German TV show because again,

(01:09:09):
they care about this in Germany. And Jones also wrote.
Jones wrote a musical based off the Third Wave, they
Don't So and and since since Jones's since has since
spent his time UM. After in the seventies he became
like a very brief stint of being a punk rocker,
which is just fun. And then he became just a

(01:09:30):
go writer, written about thirty books, including some children's books.
He's actually an award winning author UM. And he's currently
a teacher for special needs adults in like UM in
like in like disability schools. UM. And that's the third Wave. See,

(01:09:50):
I wouldn't let that guy around kids anymore. No, he's
not around kids. He's teaching adults with special needs. Okay,
well all right at either Yeah, but by all means,
he is a very good teacher when he's actually teaching.
But as long as he doesn't turn all the adults
with special needs into Nazis, then I don't know. It

(01:10:11):
seems like he did that once and might again. So
what's what's your kind of insights? Because like you read
about fascism, it often scans like the terrifying thing here
is how quickly it happens and how quickly how easy
it is to get children on board something like that,
because all you need to do, Like he's right, Like

(01:10:32):
the thing that he observed is very obvious, which is
that when you have when you create, like you go
into a system that's that's kind of static. Like you've
got this high school. Everybody has their places in it.
Everybody has kind of their places in the social order.
And there's a lot of people who aren't special, who
don't do well in school, or athletics, who aren't popular,
who are just sort of there, and you provide them

(01:10:54):
with a way that they can be better than everyone. Um,
And it's by in bracing this new movement. Like that's
that's the thing that you do. It's the thing that
Trump did is you had all these people who didn't
really have any kind of like they they you know,
our our society was has been increasingly stratified. There's an
increasing gap between the rich and the poor. And there

(01:11:14):
was a large chunk of people who didn't really have
anything to feel good about. Like they were struggling at work,
they didn't like their jobs, their education hadn't gotten them
anywhere they were, they were bogged down with debt. And
then Trump comes in and says, hey, I'm going to
give you a chance. I'm going I'm going to like
make a new thing that you can reinvent yourself as

(01:11:35):
a part of. Like that's where all these proud boys
came from. It's where a lot of these like uh,
Patriot Coalition, Patriot prayer prayer types. They are these people
who didn't really have anything to do, and suddenly fascism
gave them a way to be special and a group
of people to attack um, which is what you need
and it's people. That's the thing that you know, separates

(01:11:57):
that from like what Bernie Sanders did. Yeah, is that
Trump's solution was regressive and going back to a fake history. Um.
Whereas you know, movements on the left usually try to
move forwards of now, when movements on left gain an
authoritarian leader and move forwards, that still you know ends
up bad because bism does. But fascism is so insidious

(01:12:20):
in that, you know, it's way more comfortable to people
because it's appealing to this past sense of society, and
usually the past isn't as scary as like a new
thing in the future. That is why a lot of
people get hooked on it. Yeah, and you see what
you saw in this experiment was like as soon as
you get as soon as these kids realize, as soon

(01:12:40):
as like the people who kind of embrace this like
start to feel attached to it because it's given them
a way to be special, it's given them a place,
it's given them something to fight for. They will use
without thought violence to protect it, um because they can't.
They they are like horrified at the thought of going
back to the old order in which they weren't special, um,

(01:13:03):
in which they didn't have a place like that. That's
that's the thing that also scares me about what's going
to happen in one like as as we've been talking
about this on Twitter, somebody posted a picture of like
one of the people heading to d C this weekend
for the big Trump rally, and it was like it
was a guy who had like a spartan helmet that
had Trumps in blue and red, and he had like

(01:13:24):
a Trump Make Liberals Cry Again shirt and like board
shorts that had Trump's face as Captain America on the
right over the crotch, which was weird, and then a
Trump flag that he was wearing as a cape. And
it's like, yeah, the movement, the this fucking fascist movement
that Trump created in the United States gave this guy

(01:13:45):
something that he makes him feel special, that makes him
feel like things can't be going all that well for
that dude. Which is not to say that like only
because obviously like Trump's voters tended to be higher income
more often the lower income, but like he was not
a he was not happy with things before Trump. Trump
gave him something to feel like a part of and
something to struggle against this vague idea of the left

(01:14:05):
of liberals. Um so he has an enemy and he
has a purpose and he's not going to just like
you know, it's the thing that It's the problem that
the teacher had with the wave is that like, well,
now that you've built this thing, how do you just
stop all of a sudden it's gonna fuck these people
up and they're either going to wind up weeping, which

(01:14:25):
is the best case scenario, or getting violent. I mean yeah,
and you know the week after the wave happened, they
basically sent in his class. The week later, it was
basically just a week full of therapy. Yeah, that was
what he did. He did not they didn't like just
move on to Russia. It's like, no, like they spent
a whole week basically doing therapy because they were all,
you know, very messed up. Yeah, I mean, we could

(01:14:47):
use some of that here, but it won't happen. Instead,
they'll just buy more guns, which is why ammunition is
sold out. But they could buy four thousand rounds of
blanks by accident. There was that guy on four Chune
rounds of five point four or five by thirty nine
blanks and thought they were real bullets, and then it
was very sad, which is quite funny. The best case scenario,

(01:15:08):
he lost money and got useless bullets. Yeah, he got
he lost money and got bullets that he can't use
to kill people. Yea, unless it's Bruce Lee. Sorry, oh god.
Um yeah, that's kind of all I have here on
the topic. Um yeah, I'm trying. Yeah, that's that's kind
of that kind of hits all of the boxes I
wanted to talk about. Yep. Well, Garrison, thank you for

(01:15:30):
bumming me out. Normally it's my job to bump other
people out to that next week. I'm two for two
on child abuse for my episodes. Oh, I mean that
those are all the best episodes is where children get abused.
That's what people come to the show for, is to
watch kids be traumatized. Yeah, I mean. But also I mean,
I guess I'm good for writing that because I am

(01:15:51):
previously a child where you were a child unlike Sophie
and I. Yeah, I thought they came for your sparkling personality, Robert.
Uh No, they come for the child abuse. But I mean,
as someone who was as someone who was like more
um conservative, when I was like fifteen, the same age

(01:16:13):
as all of these people, I can I can easily
see if I was in this scenario, how I would
have also absolutely followed suit, which is why when I
read this book as a fifteen year old, I'm like,
oh wait, oh no, there's some problems here, which eventually,
you know, got me to not be a conservative anymore
and learn more about passions. So I guess it's all.

(01:16:35):
It's good then that he traumatized those kids. Yeah, because
the weird thing about this, He's like, I read this
book as part of a Christian homeschooling curriculum, and I
don't know why they included it because everything else was
kind of just opposite to this. So I'm not sure
why they included this book. Um, but I mean thanks,
I guess they included this book and one book on

(01:16:58):
the history of labor in the twentieth century, and though
and those are those are the books that got me.
I mean I still had like hundreds of hundreds of
other books that were just like conservative propaganda, but they
included these. These were the only two books that had
like a left bent and they and they kind of
they got me. They're like, oh, wow, this was a
new thing that's different from everything else I was reading
and was kind of more interesting and made more sense. Um, yeah,

(01:17:21):
I don't they if from their perspective they shouldn't include
the book, but I'm very happy they did. Um so
yeah great, Yeah, well Garrison, you got anything to plug
before we roll out? I guess my Twitter if you
want to see occasional street reporting, occasional probably stuff, oh

(01:17:43):
and my kitten. Yeah and now also I'll be offering
occasional kitten content um for those um obliged. Also soon
ish I'll be releasing like a ten minute short documentary
about Portland protests on my YouTube channel. But I've been
putting off doing the anything on that for like a
month because I'm busy and lazy. So eventually eventually that

(01:18:04):
that will be out. So you can go go to
my YouTube as well, but mainly Twitter. Yeah at at
hungry Boat, I I guess I guess I should say it.
I'd be useful or going to google my name because
like that's all you need to do. Yeah, well, everybody,
this has been a fun episode of the podcast. It hasn't,
but I had I had a lot of laughs. I'm

(01:18:25):
glad you had a lot of laughs. I'm bummed. I'm
gonna go to the gym and cry uh and get
covid um different from yester. Yeah, anyway, thanks for listening
to the podcast. Everybody now go find a high school
class to radicalize, and then haphazardly de radicalize UH for

(01:18:48):
questionable academic benefit. Zoom bombed them and turn them all
into fashions. Yeah, zoom bombed them in the Nazis. Or
find a kitten and give it love. The kitten is
asleep in my lap. My God, it goes so them.
His little head's just hanging over my hand. Buddy, got
the episode over. H

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