October 18, 2023 • 65 mins
Eye of newt, tongue of toad, well, more like excretion of toad, we're talking about the poisonous witch's brews of the animal kingdom! From trippy toads, to petrifying platypuses.
Guest: Jason Pargin
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Creature feature production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host
of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology,
and today on the show, I a new tongue of toad, well,
more like excreation of toad. We're talking about the natural poisonous,
which is bruise of the animal kingdom, from trippy toads
(00:32):
to petrifying platypuses. We're talking about animals who snow white
might want to keep some distance from. Discover this and more.
As we answered the age old question, should we talk
about the birds, bees, and snakes given that snake bites
can reverse puberty. Joining me today is author of the
(00:53):
John Dyes at the End series and the new book
Zoe Is Too Drunk for This Dystopia.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Jason Pargin Welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Very eager to talk about this because my understanding of
all of nature prior to today was that everything on
Earth exists for humans to eat, like that's why the
planet is here. It is a buffet. So finding out
that some of these things can really mess you up
in ways that seem like a witch's curse is very shocking.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I mean, look, you still can't eat it. Technically what
happens after is just you know, that's.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Up to you.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I just feel like it's irresponsible on the animal's part,
right because it's like, what's what's the point of that?
You are, you're walking food. You you surely realize this.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
It's as if they don't want us to eat them,
which can't be true.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I don't understand, but we'll get into it because they
may have ulterior motives, but ultimately I think it's just
something it's a misunderstanding.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Well, Jason, I'm sure you've heard of psychedelic toads. In fact,
I'm one hundred percent sure, because you were the one
who was interested in talking about them today.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, I only know it as a pop culture phenomenon.
It's something that you constantly hear, you know, you see
it in movies or whatever, where they will lick a
toad in the desert. I think there's a Simpsons episode
where it happens. And I have always assumed that that
is not strictly true, that you could not just literally
pick it up, lick its back, and then suddenly start tripping.
I assumed it's one of those things that just pervaded
(02:30):
into pop culture. But it's more real than what I thought.
But I've never known why such a creature exists or
how we found out such a creature exists.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, so it is a mixture of truths and half truths,
but mostly it is as weird as pop culture would
make it sound. Of course, I'm going to start this
by saying, don't lick toads, even if you think you'll
get high. They're much more likely to make you sick.
(03:03):
And also it's mean to the toad. Did you get
that toad's consent? I don't think so. So that being said,
it is true that psychedelic toad toxin is a real thing,
and human beings do ingest it recreationally. Typically though it
(03:24):
is not through licking the toad, but it goes through
a whole process before being ingested. Usually it's smoked. I'm
not gonna go into detail about how it's made, partially
because I don't know, and partially because I don't want
the dea on my butt. But yes, I suffice it
(03:46):
to say that people can and do have psychedelic experiences
with toad toxin, and it's usually processed before they ingest it,
and it's not the best thing for the toad to do,
so it's not a victimless crime.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Generally, if you've been rolled up and smoked, you're probably
not still alive, regardless of what kind of a life
form you are.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I mean, it's I don't think they make just a
fat dube out of the toad. They generally will scrape
the toxin off the toad. It doesn't have to kill
the toad, but it's not a good situation, Like the
toad's basically getting milked getting scraped, and that is not
(04:39):
a great situation for the toad. In fact, there are
like poachers who try to get these toads. There's also
people who try to farm these toads, and farming is
actually quite bad for toads because there are a lot
of fungal infections that really threaten toad populations. And when
(05:00):
you have a bunch of toads kind of in a
concentrated area on some kind of toad farm, you greatly
increase the chance of these fungal infection spreading and then
it could potentially spread a wild population. So it's not
exactly a sustainable drug toad psychedelic toxin, but that doesn't
stop people from necessarily.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Trying to do it.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
By the way, there could be a whole separate episode
in the fact that we humans tend to assume that
basically anything can be farmed. Yeah, a big controversy over
octopus farming because it's a delicacy and they're like, well,
let's just farm them, as like, these are intelligent creatures.
Not everything has been domesticated over tens of thousands of
years to be suitable to be herded and bred or
(05:45):
whatever en mass. So yeah, it's not just these tots.
There's lots of creatures that don't do well because that
is very unnatural in terms of environment for them.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, I mean exactly right, Like there, you can't just
farm an exotic gam animal and expect that to turn
out well for either the animal or for you. The
farm animals that we have right now, I mean, of
course farming is not always great even for them, but
(06:14):
they have been selected over many thousands of years for domestications,
so yeah, that's quite a bit of a different situation.
You can't just saddle up a toad and expect it
to be like a cow or something where you can
go and milk the toads every morning. But toads do
(06:37):
produce a toxin, and it's not created to make us
get high. It is actually there to protect them from predators.
So there are lots of toads and frog species as
well that produce toxins, and that toxin is truly intended
(06:58):
to ward off predators. So the toad will ooze toxin
when it feels threatened, usually from a few glands on
its body, and predators will either get sick or disgusted
and will either stop trying to eat the toad and
release it, or become sick after eating the toad, learning
(07:21):
a very painful lesson and in some cases, potentially lethal
lesson that this toad is not good to eat.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
I find this absolutely fascinating because it is something I
had literally never thought of before, that you have a
defense that doesn't necessarily save that individual toad, because, as
you can imagine, you've seen predators eat a lot of them,
do not gingerly test the food before they A lot
of them just snap it up and swallow it, and
(07:52):
so it would be them getting sick and then learning
not to eat other similar toads. In other words, the
fence is not necessarily to save that toad. It's a
collective defense, like, hey, don't I have sacrificed myself to
teach you not to eat the other toads like me, which,
of course the toad does not have that thought or
(08:15):
any thought. But the way that a defense evolved in
that manner, I think is really interesting. I think it's
kind of inspirational because it's like, well, sometimes in your
own life you may run into a disaster, but this
is the world using you as an example to teach other.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
People, right, I mean it is so there are animals,
including these toads. The toads can sometimes survive this, and
in fact, sometimes like the predator will just get a
whiff of this tox and like kind of get it
on their nose or on their mouth and lips and
realize something's off. Some toads are able to spray it
(08:58):
a little bit so that it's definitely a warning to
the predator to back off. But there are animals certainly
where it is rare for them, despite their talks and
to survive a predator encounter, including butterflies. So butterflies, there
are a lot of butterfly species, like monarchs, who are toxic.
They are not good to eat, and they do not
(09:23):
necessarily survive if a bird tries it, Like they're very
delicate creatures. The bird, if it even does spit it out,
that butterfly is probably not gonna make it. However, you
still see this protective effect of butterflies, like butterflies like monarchs,
having this warning coloration called apisimitism, which deters predators like
(09:47):
birds from eating them, despite the fact it doesn't necessarily
prevent that first individual that gets eaten by a bird.
So it's not an altruistic thing, right, Like, it's not
somehow these butterfli having a collective consciousness of we are
going to save future butterflies. So because like you can imagine,
(10:10):
like say you have a butterfly who develops this trait
and it doesn't help itself at all, it gets eaten.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Well, those genes.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Don't get passed on, So how does this ball even
get rolling in the first place. You need like a
critical mass of the butterfly population who have this mutation
or development that actually survive. And so one of the
theories is that the same adaptation of the bright colors
(10:39):
and the toxicity also helps it survive in other ways.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
So the bright coloration, the.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Toxicity may make them more viable to be able to
produce offspring, even beyond just being preyed upon. So, for instance,
that bright coloration makes it more noticeable to the opposite
sex and allows it more mating opportunities, and maybe the
toxin helps protect it from parasites, and so those things
(11:10):
already make it more likely to pass on its genes.
And then you get this added benefit of predators learning, hey,
these really bright butterflies are nasty and they give me
a tummy ache. So you have this kind of two
pronged thing where it enough of them evolve this characteristic,
perhaps for unrelated reasons, but then it also has this
(11:32):
population protective effect of these predators learning the really bright
monarchy butterflies are discussed and they make me puke. So
it is really interesting. In fact, there are butterfly species
who are not toxic who have adapted to take advantage
(11:54):
of this apisomatic protection that the toxic species have. So
you'll have a mimic it was not toxic, could be eaten,
you know, delicious butterfly, and then it copies the look
of a toxic butterflies. This is called Baitsian mimicry. Uh
So then the tasty butterfly benefits from that protection because
(12:17):
a bird looks at it and says, this looks like
one of the yucky butterflies. I'm not going to eat it.
The really interesting thing is if these mimics are too numerous,
it actually dilutes the effect efficacy of the protective coloration
because then birds learn like, actually, when I eat these
are really bright butterflies. Uh, they they're fine. I'm okay.
(12:40):
It's like, you know, you have enough of the false
signal to bury the real signal. So you have these
population dynamics where the mimics have to be in low
enough numbers in order for the bait the for the
apisomatic coloration to actually benefit them. So you see this
like these poppy dynamics where the if the mimic population
(13:04):
gets too many, you have this like crash in the
population and then a rise in the population of.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
The toxic butterflies.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
It's really it's very interesting mathematically, which we won't talk
about the math because I cannot no, but I love.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
This because it's such a great demonstration of how this
is all a machine. So, for example, if you have
coloration that is supposed to signal to predators or I
keep using terminology like it's designed you are supposed to
you as if the butterflies play in this. I of
course know that's not how this works.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
It's just so hard to get away from that language
because this is how human beings work. So like we
have intention, we have we design things, and so we
use that kind of language when we're talking about things
that don't have that. But it's really hard, even if
we understand that's not the case, it's hard to not
use that language.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
You and I are primates and tool users, so we
want to see things through the lens of This is
a tool they designed, because that's how we always see
the world. That's our evolution. But for example, if you
have a specific predator, say a bird, your coloration only
works in a range of colors that that's bird's eyes
(14:21):
can see. It does you no good if that so
your color is somewhat is partly dictated by the design
of the eyes of the birds that are eating you.
And whether or not this mimicry works gets back to
the whatever the rudimentary psychology or decision making of the bird.
(14:42):
I know birds do not have psychology, but they do
have a decision making process in terms of in terms
of the risk reward, Like am I going to risk
if I know the only one out of fifty of
these is poisonous and it's like no, fine, I'll happily
risk that. But every animal has different concept of risk.
That is something else that evolves. You know that the
(15:03):
scarcity of food changes that equation. So the the way,
the decision making, the eyes, the sense organs of your
enemies dictate what you will look like and how you act.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean these these relationships between animals can
be very close, regardless of whether it is you know,
symbiotic in sort of a mutualism where it's mutually beneficial
or symbiotic and predator prayer relationships. You know, you can
have a very close relationship with between two animals where
(15:40):
they are constantly trying to either evade or kill each other,
but they still have this very intimate connection because they
are shaping each other's evolution and in fact they can
have in it. Like if you know, people think, well,
if you remove a predator, that's really good for the
prey population because they never have they don't have to
contend with that predator. Well, in fact, sometimes if you
(16:01):
remove a predator, the prey population is in danger because
they become too numerous, they compete for more resources, they
spread disease. So yeah, these relationships relationships are very fascinating,
and you really there is no animal is an island.
Everyone is sort of you know, pushing and squeezing on
(16:22):
the other through evolutionary history and shaping what the other
animal looks like, what it does, everything about it, I mean,
ourselves included. Now that we've talked a little bit about
the background behind why animals have these toxins, let's talk
about one of the most famous psychedelic toads, the Sonoran
desert toad. It is found in southwestern United States and
(16:46):
northwestern Mexico. It is a brownish green warty toad that
lives in areas that go through wet and dry seasons,
and actually during the dry season, the toad lives in
burrows underground and it comes up during what summer seasons.
They emerge and they congregate in rivers, streams, ponds, or
(17:08):
swimming pools because human neighborhoods are often within the fro
within the toad's range, and this is the call it
makes when it's trying to find a mate. That's a
pretty sound. I like it, little little humming sound. So
(17:30):
they seem really innocuous, and yet they excrete a potent
toxin from glands behind their eyes and on their legs.
So this toxin can be deadly or at the very
least make predators very sick. And you know, hopefully the
(17:50):
predator will release the toad after getting a mouthful of
this toxin, but you know, if they go through with
consuming it, they can either get really.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Sick or even die.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
And this is actually a problem for domesticated dogs who
can be very curious about the toad. But in terms
of human interactions with this toad, the toxin also contains DMT,
which might sound familiar to some of you. It is
a psychoactive compound and when smoked, this compound can cause
(18:27):
a psychedelic trip with hallucinations, sometimes feelings of euphoria. You know,
sometimes it can go very wrong. Like psychedelic trips can
either be pleasant or be horrifying. It's I think somewhat
dependent on your frame of mind at the time, your
own individual physiology. But yeah, so the compound in this
(18:50):
toad toxin binds to serotonin receptors and other neurotransmitter receptors,
which alters the concentration of neurotransmitters and neural activation. So
it very directly interferes with the firing of your neurons
and the abundance of neurotransmitters in your brain. And so
(19:15):
it is a really interesting thing that you know, this toxin,
which is not created so that we can get high,
it's for a totally different reason, can directly bounce around
in our brains make us go into a completely altered
state of mind where people see things, that they feel
things very differently how they normally would.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
It is truly.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Bizarre, and is other things in nature that caused us effect,
like of course mushrooms, and I think there's various types
of even there's like a lichen or a fungus to
something else that if you lick it off a rock
you can get you high. Is it all the same thing?
Are these all defenses against because other creatures would find
that fatal rather than t off that as a generally?
(20:01):
Have they all evolved for that same reason?
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I don't know if every single one of them has,
but all of the ones that I know of are
defensive toxins that have that are there for, uh, trying
to deter predators that might eat them, certainly on toads.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, I think that is the case.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Uh, And I mean it's kind of funny because even
though those are meant to be defensive toxins to prevent
predators from eating them, occasionally animals will actually catch on
to the fact that this can get them high and
they will try to lick the toxin off of the toad.
(20:47):
So this is I don't know all of the animals
who do this, but dogs, domesticated dogs and horses have
been observed licking these toads, and it's not a great thing.
Like Australian dogs, Domesticated dogs in Australia often lick cane
(21:08):
toads and while it isn't necessarily deadly if they just
do a few licks, if they overindulge in the cane toad,
they can get really sick and have to go to
the vet. And in South America, horses have been known
to lick the waxy tree frog, which is another psychedelic
(21:30):
species of frog. And it yeah, they they seemingly just
do it because they've learned it gets them high and
they likes to do it.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I find that equally fascinating because I would assume, like
to what degree a horse can hallucinate, Like, I assume
this is something that we simply that we simply don't
know the details of, Like we can observe their behavior,
we can observe that they seem to go into a
state or don't seem aware of what they are or whatever.
(22:04):
But I would assume from the animal's point of view,
it's just a feeling of care free pleasure or whatever,
because from an evolutionary point of view, you would think
this would be extremely risky to put yourself in a
situation where you're now not aware of your surroundings or
are seeing things that are not there, Like, even if
it's fun, it seems like, especially as nervous as horses are,
(22:26):
being prey animals, it's very easy for them to harm themselves.
Like if I can imagine one hallucinating, you know, a
wolf for a bird of prey or something else that's
frightened up and then running itself to death or whatever.
I find that fascinating that they do it anyway, because
again we know that people do it, but when people
do it, you always describe some very human reason that
(22:49):
we're trying to fight off our anxiety or we're trying
to find some deeper meaning in the universe. But a
dog is not doing that. A dog is just it
just feels feels good.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
I guess yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I mean, I do think any animal that can perceive
the world in some way can hallucinate, because hallucination is
just the activation of your perceptive areas of the brain,
your sensory areas of the brain, without there actually being
an external stimuli. So any animal, I think with that,
(23:25):
with the ability to perceive, has the ability to hallucinate.
We of course wouldn't necessarily know what those hallucinations would
be like. But I do think that the dogs and
the horses who are doing this are doing it for
the euphoria. And animals are not perfect machines, right, like,
(23:48):
including humans, we can't know, Like, even though evolution favors
us to do things that are in our own best
interest in terms of survival, that doesn't mean we're going
to do it when they're The reward system that keeps
us alive also is activated by things that hurt us,
so they they like, you know, the this is the
(24:12):
serotonin system that is you know, part of the the
impact of the toxin has on serotonin receptors, which is
one of the sort of reward systems of the brain.
And so getting that getting that high, getting that reward
is so appealing. I mean, you see that with with
human habits, right, Like, we do things all the time
(24:34):
that are bad for us, but we have such a
powerful reward system in the brain. You know, evolution cannot
predict all of these sort of you know, loopholes in
terms of things that like, hey, I feel good when
I eat an apple when I'm hungry, and that's good
because that keeps me from keeling over and dying of hunger.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
And there's no way, as we're evolving for evolution to
some how have kind of a omniscient understanding that like, well,
I better make sure that the same system I do
when they eat the apple also doesn't activate when they
like drink too much wine or eat a bunch of sugar,
because those things aren't good for them. You know. It's
(25:17):
if those reward systems are still activated, we're gonna do it,
perhaps absent some sort of wisdom that this is harming
us because it feels good and our brain is completely
primed to give into those reward systems, because generally those
things have kept us alive for thousands, hundreds of thousands
(25:39):
of years.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
You get these paradoxes where things like hot peppers, you know,
those are that is a mechanism to deter certain animals
from eating, to deter the wrong animals from eating the
fruit of these of these plants. Right, they have the
capsaisent or water the chemical is that will burn their
tongue or whatever. And then here we people breed these
(26:05):
things and make them into sauces because we have decided
that the whatever it is, the adrenaline rush of the
mild pain on the tongue enhances flavor or the experience
somehow like the pain that this thing is trying to generate.
It's like, yes, we have evolved to enjoy that, if
in a specific amount. But if you could, if you
(26:27):
could somehow make a chili pepper scentient and then make
it watch that YouTube show where the people eat the
wings with the increasingly hot sauces on them. The pepper
would probably be very surprised.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
I mean, the pepper would think we're all perverts because
we're all masochistically subjecting ourselves to this pain. I mean
it is weird, wrong, it is very interesting. I mean,
there are other benefits to spicy food. It makes you sweat,
which can help you cool off in uh in hot
(27:00):
or humid environments. And it also has some ability to
mask the taste of food that's gone off a bit
but you can still eat it, or food that's maybe
not you know, great tasting, but then the spiciness makes
it taste okay because you're so focused on the spiciness,
(27:22):
and it's you know, people do you know.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
I mean, I'm one of them.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I enjoy spice, not extreme spiciness. I can't eat when
my eyes are full of tears and there's not running
down my face. But I like a good amount of spice.
And it takes a little while to ramp up to
getting some spice. But it's it's like a weirdly Yeah,
it's like you associate it with You start to associate
(27:46):
it with this good flavored food and the spice somehow
enhances the flavor of the food or enhances the experience
of the food. It's really interesting. So, yeah, we will
subject ourselves even to pain because our reward system is
very complex and will activate even when we're doing things
(28:08):
that doesn't seem like it's in our best interest. Although
spicy food, as long as you don't over indulge, won't
hurt you. If you do overindulge, you'll punish yourself and
your bathroom.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Huge spots of human behavior falls into this category of
things where we are mildly abusing ourselves in some way
that provides us some different pleasure. The whole complex interaction
of that is basically how all of society works.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
So we're going to take a quick break and when
we get back, we're going to talk about an animal
who is surprisingly dangerous and also, in the spirit of
what we've been talking about, how humans look at that
and see opportunity. All right, so we are back and
(28:59):
we're going to about a cute little animal who is
kind of surprisingly terrifying.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
So platypusses.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Platypusses are small, cute, little monotremes found in Australia. I
think sometimes people are surprised by the size of them,
because like, at least when I used to think of platypus,
I would think of something like that's beaver sized, because
for some reason I put them in the same category
(29:31):
as beaver. Hey, it's an aquatic mammal and it swims
around and it's got that long, that flat tail, so
I thought, you know, it's like beaver size. They're actually
quite small. They can fit into your cupped hands. They're
much smaller than a beaver, and they eat earthworms mostly.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
They lay eggs. They have a bill.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Female platypusses will seep milk out of their bellies to
feed their young, so they don't have nipples. They just
have pores on their tummies that basically leak milk, and
so they are this kind of archaic version of mammals.
They're still mammals, but they are monotremes. They're related to
(30:19):
echidneas as well, and males have a venomous spur on
their heel that can dose you with a potent, very
painful toxin.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Okay, before we get into the point of this, which
is the fact that males have the toxic spurs, is
there honestly no type of plat platypus that is like big,
because I instantly in my mind am imagining many, many
thousands of photos and videos of these things being like
(30:53):
big enough to sit on your desk and cover most
of it, like a large eyes a beaver bilt maybe
slightly larger than a beaver. No, I'm very eager to
hear if there are other listeners who are stunned to
find out that platypuses are small, because I don't know
where this started, but this is like a Berenstain Bears
thing for me. I'm now going to go look, and
I know for a fact it's going to turn out
(31:14):
that you're right. I'm not going to find a single
photo of somebody like cradling this thing in both arms.
But man, I'm for some reason, I'm really surprised to hear.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
That, Yeah, they don't get that big. The things that
do get big. It's interesting. Echidnas actually do get large,
Like echidnas can get much larger than a platypus. Wombats too,
those can get quite large. So there are monotremes u
and marsupials that can get big, and yeah, it really is.
(31:49):
It's one of those things. For me, I suspect it's
because I have placed beaver and like platypus is Australian
beaver essentially, and beaver's can get to be quite big.
But yeah, the platypus is no, they they tend to
stay relatively small. You know, it's about chihuahua size or smaller.
(32:12):
Very weird, right, No, I get it because I had
this misconception as well, and I was surprised to find
out that they really don't get that big. But despite
being small, they can pack a punch with that venomous spur.
So it's thought that this venomous spur was common among
archaic mammals and that the platypus inherited it from its ancestors.
(32:38):
It is actually found in echidnas, the other this other
type of monotorum, but it is a vestigial trait, so
the spur does not actually contain any venom and the
echidna so the venom is only found in the male platypus.
The spike is this curved, hollow, caratinous structure, so it's
(33:03):
the same material as claws or fingernails, but it is
attached to a venom gland that is potent enough to
kill a dog. The venom actually doesn't seem to kill
other platypuses. There seems to be some amount of resistance
to their own venom, though they can be immobilized by
(33:24):
it or paralyzed by it, so the venom cannot kill
a human. You might be breathing a sigh of relief,
but hang on, it can ruin your day, your week,
or possibly many months, because it can have an effect
that is very painful, lasts a long time, and is
(33:47):
resistant to most of our strongest painkillers. So the pain
was first described in scientific literature in eighteen seventy six
by a natural William Webb Spicer, who wrote of this
unnamed victim quote, the pain was intense and almost paralyzing.
(34:08):
But for the administration of small doses of Brandy, he
would have fainted on the spot. As it was, it
was half an hour before he could stand without support.
By that time, the arm was swollen to the shoulder
and quite useless, and the pain in the hand very severe.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
So, I mean, medicine was awesome. I've tried every type
of liquor on my shelf and the patient still has
not recovered. It appears that this bite is with stands
even the finest of whiskey.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
I mean, honestly, so these stings are The pain is
resistant to morphine and other painkillers, modern medical painkillers. So
I don't know. I don't know whether brandy wouldn't be
better in this situation because morphine does not really seem
(35:06):
to work very well against platypus venom, which is kind
of horrifying given that the pain can last hours or
days or weeks, or in a few extreme cases it's
lasted months. So there was a case of a fifty
seven year old victim whose afflicted hand remained sensitive and
(35:26):
in pain for around three months, which you know, you
might think, well, like three months, you know, I could
handle that, but just it's your hand, Like, imagine it
being swollen and in pain, just from this little cute
duck mammal that you found, and it just it seemed
(35:48):
like it was gonna be fine, and it heal kicked
you into pain for three months.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
See, that's the thing, because if you spend time on
say TikTok, you find out that, especially in the social
media era, we people have decided that the whole world
is just full of our pets and potential pets. Like
people will approach bison and elk and all of these
because after all, this is nature. These are animals. They
(36:16):
are peaceful animals who coexist in nature. So they will
go get a selfie or a photo or a video
of them petting a bison or a bull or whatever.
So something like a platypus. If you were an American
vacationing in Australia and trying to get some great video
and you've saw one of these things by somebody of water,
(36:39):
oh my god, would you want to pick that thing
up and get video of it? Because it's a little
duck duck build duck build mouse thing. So when this
thing stings you and then you find out that this
is like worse than the average snake bite, apparently because
most snake bites aren't that bad, and you're so having
(37:00):
paid weeks later, I think you would be very surprised
and disappointed in nature.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah, I have seen this trend on TikTok of people
picking up animals and then twirling around with them like
they're in that scene from the Titanic. I'm gonna go
ahead and say don't do that. Maybe don't do that,
primarily because that's gonna annoy the animal. The animal is
not Rose from the Titanic. It does not want to
(37:28):
be twirled like a baroness. It wants to be left
that heck alone. Secondary reason is you never know when
an animal got a poisonous barb and is gonna sting
you with it. I'm not gonna say that. There aren't
many animals out there who are secretly poisonous or secretly
venomous just so people will not mess with them as much. Bison,
(37:52):
they've got a giant unicorn horn that can invenimate you. Actually, no,
they can just gore you. And that's probably good enough.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
I am telling everyone in the sound of my voice,
all of these creatures can move faster than you think. Yes,
there is horrifying video of people who thought it would
be fun to approach an alligator or a crocodile, because,
after all, they are very slow. They kind of float
in the water like logs, and they would get It's like, well,
(38:23):
I've watched Steve Berwin. You know, they'll like get on
top of it and get a video of it, like
stroking it's back or something. And they can bite so
fast yep, that the camera doesn't capture the motion. There's
a splash and then your hand is gone. Yeah, because
you have to understand, these things evolved to be able
(38:45):
to bite faster than a deer can react and you're
just a person who works in an office. I promise
you you do not perceive how fast nature moves and
how fast the average predator can bite because they have
to bite faster than you can see or they would starve.
(39:09):
They can bite in a fraction of a second. They
can complete the motion. You will not get out of
the way. I think a lifetime of watching movies and
wild animals and movies where it's a cg animal and
the guys having to fight it or whatever jump out
of the way. It's like, no, in real life, if
it decides to buy you, you're not going to know
(39:30):
it until your hand is already gone.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, there's this like famous photo of a human arm
in I believe it was an alligator. It could have
been a crocodile, but it had it in its mouth
and it's just like this inert hand in its mouth.
I think it was at It may have been at
a zoo or a nature preserve, so I think it
(39:56):
was actually the hand of a professional. So if a
professional sometimes lose this is hand to alligators and crocodiles,
most of us don't really have a chance. But you
know again, human beings, we're endlessly innovative and interested in
running towards the danger in case it might improve our lot.
(40:18):
The very horrifying venom of the platypus that is resistant
to painkillers and can last for weeks or months. Some
people are like, hey, that's great, let's study it because
we might actually discover more about pain management and new
ways to relieve pain that doesn't involve opiates, or to
(40:40):
address pain that doesn't respond well to our current painkillers.
So I do appreciate that part of the human spirit
where we were like, this is horrible and deadly. Maybe
it's medicine, and often it is. It's like we've done
this with stak venom, We've done this with various dangerous compounds,
(41:03):
where we're like, well, this is horrible and does bad
stuff to our blood and our bodies. Maybe that means
it can be medicine. And that's how we've created things
like anticoagulants or pro coagulants that can help people because
we're masochists who enjoy the thrill of subjecting ourselves to
(41:27):
weird and terrifying stuff.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Or maybe it could be a weapon, if you're looking
for some sort of a chemical weapon that could not
be treated by painkillers. It's like, hey, the platypuses have
mastered this, let's learn their ways.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I like the idea of having our armies just be
little platypuses. That would be adorable. Most adorable war crime
would be torturing someone with a platypus.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
Just dropping them out of planes, little tiny pear chutes.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Well, we're going to take a quick break, but when
we get back, we're going to talk about an animal
who actually does have a medical use and sometimes creates
a medical marvel that is very rare and very weird.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
So we will be right back.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
So, Jason, you actually brought this up to me, which
I found really interesting. I was skeptical and then I
looked into it and it is actually true. It is
a snake bite that has been known to cause so
called reverse puberty to the rare, unlucky victim. So this
(42:44):
is courtesy of the Russell's vipers. So Russell's vipers are
found in and near India. It is a large brown
snake about four feet long so over a meter, with
brown oval patterns. It is I'm not gonna say it
(43:05):
looks like a rattlesnake because it's missing the rattle and
rattlesnakes are much bumpier. But the patterns on its skin
are somewhat similar. This is exactly the kind of snake
to be wary of. I do love to talk about
snakes on the podcast that you do not need to
be so scared of and that we should love and appreciate.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
This is one you should be scared of.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
And while we can love and appreciate it, we gotta
do it from afar because it is venomous and they
like to hang out near human areas. They do this
because when there's human activity, there is rodent activity. The
rodents like to eat our food and our waste, and
the snakes like to eat the rodents, and so these
snakes will be found around people. And their venom is
(43:49):
very potent and it can hurt and kill people, and
it has so. Without treatment, their venom can be very
deadly to humans and cause problems such as black from
the gums, blood in the urine, blistering, and necrosis that
means the death of the tissue near the bite. Can
cause facial swelling, vomiting, kidney failure, blood clots, blood poisoning,
(44:13):
and heart failure. Pain can last for weeks following the bite.
Like a lot of snake venom, it can interfere with
clotting blood clotting, so the venom can cause both blood
clotting and bleeding, so destruction of the blood vessels and
(44:36):
the increase in blood clot formation, which is a kind
of weird and horrible combination. But it's so good at
inducing blood clots, which can cause problems in vivo in
the human body, but in vitro. It is used in
medical laboratory settings to test the clotting ability of blood,
(45:00):
so this is really useful actually to look for the
presence of something called lupus anticoagulant. So if the blood
clots in the standard amount of time when given a
little drop of this snake venom, it means that this
lupus anticoagulant is not present, But if it takes longer,
it indicates the presence of this lupus anti coagulant that
(45:23):
interferes with the development of clots. I could get into
a whole explanation about what lupus anticoagulant is, because it's
actually a pro coagulant in the body and it's confusing,
but that seems like a topic for a medical podcast,
not this one. But the point is that this snake
(45:44):
venom is actually an important and useful medical diagnostic tool, and.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
Me today it is. But the reason I wanted to
talk about this one is because I have this belief
that I think most cultures, most human cultures, have specific
beliefs about snakes and that they are you know, because obviously,
and you know in our culture we have the snake
and the Bible and whatever it refers to serpents, they're
(46:11):
very apocalyptic or devious. I think the idea that snakes
are cursed in some way comes to the fact that
when when they get a bite, it's not just that
it swells up and hurts. You get effects that are weird,
Like you look at the list of you know what
(46:32):
in the urine, bleeding from the gums. It would have
to seem like a curse like you had been if
you were an ancient people, it not seemed like you
were bit by an animal, but that this animal has
cursed you with a whole range of ailments that don't
seem to have anything to do with the bite.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah, that's what's spooky about snake venom is that it
has such a wide range of effects, like over the
whole body, and it creates these like hellish symptoms and
people that are scary to look at, even more.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Scared as one of them. Your face swells up was
one of the symptoms. So it's uncontrollable vomiting and your
face is swelling and there's blood in your urine, like
you would just have to feel like this is a
league you've been attacked with.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Yeah, it's horrible, horrible, horrible, it's I mean, you know,
it's so important that we have anti venom because anti
venom treatment can prevent or help reduce symptoms and it
can save your life. An answer to your you wanted
to know if we still use the snake venom in
diagnostic tests, and yes we do.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
It's called diluted Russell.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Viper venom time dr VVT, which is a very popular
test used in labs for trying to find this loopus anticoagulant. So,
as far as I know, this test is still used.
It sounds like archaic, but if it works, it works.
(48:04):
I mean, once you have a compound that can induce
coagulation and blood, that is very useful for testing whether
the blood is able to coagulate at all. Another interesting
medical phenomenon with this snake is the so called reverse
puberty that it can cause. So reverse puberty doesn't really
(48:28):
mean you turn back into a teenager and go full
Benjamin Buttons, but it does mean that sexually mature characteristics
can be either interfered with or revert. So medically speaking,
this is a case of hypopituitarism, so that means that
the pituitary gland is not as active as it should
(48:52):
be or is not at all active. So the peituitary
gland is responsible for producing hormones that they regular a
lot of bodily processes, but that includes things associated with
puberty and post puberty. So the way this snake messes
with your sexual characteristics is that the Russell's viper venom
(49:17):
can cause bleeding or clotting in the pituitary gland, which
damages it and disrupts its function, and this can cause
in rare cases, and in the rare cases that this happens,
this can cause pubic or armpit hair loss. It can
interfere with the minstrel cycle, either stopping it or causing irregularity.
(49:43):
It can decrease libido and cause rectile and sexual dysfunction.
So yeah, very much like a witch's curse this venom.
It's so bad because it's actively damaging the tissue of
the p puuritary gland in these cases, and so you know,
(50:03):
in these rare cases that this happens, people sometimes have
to go on hormone treatment for life because the puritary
gland it can no longer function, it can't heal, and
so they have to receive hormone treatments for the rest
of their life to treat these issues and to keep
(50:23):
their body functioning normally.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
And it seems to an ancient people or even just
in a part of the world where they don't have
great modern education, it's so different from you know, if
you get bitten by a lion or an alligator, it
bites you, it is chewed off a part of your arm,
it's trying to eat you. That's extremely clear what's happening there,
(50:46):
the idea of getting bit by a snake and that
over the course of months, your whole body changes in ways.
It seems to be reverting you to youth or whatever,
like certain hair falls out and you're sexual performance changes
or all of these various effects that are just hormonal.
If you don't know the mechanism of that, you would
(51:08):
have to think like you would have to go looking
for the snake to find out how to appease it
or something to reverse the curse. You would have to
regard it as as some sort of a magical thing.
I would think it just it feels mystical. It doesn't
feel like something an animal should be able to do
to you with a bite.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
I mean, it's so funny too, because the snake has
no interest in causing us harm like this. It really
could not care less about whether our pubic hair falls off.
That venom is mostly for its prey, so it uses
that venom to shock and paralyze and kill its prey,
(51:50):
and that is its preferred usage for it. In fact,
there are a lot of snakes that are venomous, but
when they bite you, they actually do what's called a
dry because they don't want to waste their venom on
you because they would much prefer to use it on
their prey. But if they feel very threatened they will,
(52:11):
or if they mistake you for prey like that, they're
happy enough to use their venom to protect themselves. And
it is it's just weird and kind of unfortunate that
it has such a profound effect on us and has
such like truly like you have.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Been cursed.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
And it I definitely can see why snakes are involved
in a lot of sort of folklore and mysticism because
it is it is such a such a potent natural
toxin that they have. Before we go, we do got
to play a little game called the Mystery Animal Sound game.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
Every week I play.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
A mystery animal sound and you the listener, and you
the gest try to guess who is making that sound.
It can be any animal. So last week's Mystery animal sound,
the hint was this, This raptor is all about no
shave November?
Speaker 2 (53:27):
All right?
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Could you hear that thing that sounded like a broken
squeaky toy?
Speaker 3 (53:33):
You've already in the hint told us that it's a raptor,
right right, Like it's a type of bird of prey.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
That's right, And you made a.
Speaker 3 (53:41):
Reference to no shave November. Let me try to visualize
it and try to think of what are the mustache
related birds that I know, because there are so many.
I am going to say that is the sound of
(54:01):
a Siberian mustache goal.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
I love it sounds like it could be a real bird. However,
this is the bearded vulture. Congratulations too, the Western Australian
Insects Study Society Anti be and saga E for guessing correctly.
So you're close with that Siberian mustached goal which I
(54:34):
don't believe is a real bird. But maybe if we,
you know, keep our minds open, we will discover such
a bird. Certainly, there aren't.
Speaker 3 (54:42):
Any more ridiculous than the thing you just said there are.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
You can't come up with a bird that doesn't at
least have a counterpart in real life. That is just
as if not more ridiculous. So yes, this is the
bearded vulture. It is found in southern Europe. Actually it's
kind of near me. It's in Grand Paradiso National Park.
I have gone out so many times trying to see
(55:10):
this bird. Never once, never, once have I seen one.
Someday hopefully. It's also found in East Africa, India and
the surrounding area as well as Tibet. So they are
a very large raptor that is a bird of prey.
They have a wingspan that can get up to over
nine feet, so that's nearly three meters of wingspan. That
(55:33):
is Jesus yep, it's a big, big, big old bird.
They are a wonderfully spooky, halloweeny bird because their diet
is almost entirely bones.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
That sounds very cool, but I'm telling you, every single
listener who is imagining in their head this bearded vulture
is picturing the wrong thing. There's almost no way it
has the thick look jurious beard that all of us
want it to have. And I'm worried that if I
go look up a picture of it right now, I'm
going to be extremely disappointed.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
I don't think you will be, because it is a
beautiful bird, so look it up. The reason it's called
bearded is because rather than being bald like most vultures,
it has full head of hair, full head of feathers,
and around its neck and chest it has these beautiful,
(56:32):
scruffy feathers that it looks fantastic. And these feathers often
have this beautiful kind of pink reddish hue, which I'll
talk about why that happens a little bit. But Jason,
have you looked up a photo and are you disappointed?
Speaker 3 (56:50):
I have, and I'm not trying to contradict you, but
I don't think it's called bearded because of the red
feathers on its throat seems to have a little black
goatee style beard dangling down from the base of its beak.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
It could be it does have a little.
Speaker 3 (57:12):
Straight up seems to have a very bad beard, but again.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
It does have a weird little sideburns.
Speaker 3 (57:22):
Like I guess, okay, I see yeah, Like from the side,
I can see someone thinking that it's that that's its
little beard.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
That it's got a little go tea. Yeah, that actually
might be why you might be right, Yes, it has.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
It has that.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
Little weird go tea and then a pink these pinkish
red scruffy neck feathers and then sort of black and
white feathers on the rest of it. It's truly an
amazing looking bird. I think it's beautiful, actually it is.
Speaker 3 (57:54):
The problem is that the beard is the least impressive part.
The beard looks like it's kind of been dyed black,
like a worst dad who grew out like a go
tee and doesn't know he's like trying to start a
band or something, and he's like in his forties and
he's like got a dyed black go tea. Like it's
the least impressive feature of the animal. And I think
it's kind of sad that they named it the bearded vulture,
(58:16):
like they're calling out this one feature because that is
the least impressive thing about it, should.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
Be called the soul patch vulture. But nevertheless, they eat bones,
which is pretty metal.
Speaker 2 (58:29):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (58:30):
And it's not just the bone marrow. They eat the
entire bone. They can digest the whole bone. Over ninety
percent of their diet is just bones. Their powerful digestive
juices dissolves the bone. They do need to break apart
the bone into chunks that are small enough that it
can swallow whole, So they either snap apart brittle bones
(58:53):
on the ground, or for the more stubborn bones, they
can pick them up and and drop them from a
height and then it shatters on the ground and they
pick up the little pieces and swallow those whole. So
even though they look like they would attack you and
(59:14):
try to rip out your livery, the most you have
to fear from them is them accidentally dropping a bone
on your head, which is pretty unlikely because their populations
are not that not that big, and their populations have declined,
which is sad. Another cool thing about these guys is,
despite being spooky, bone eating soul patched gods. They also
(59:38):
love makeup, so that beautiful kind of reddish orange pinky
hue on their chest feathers is actually makeup that they
have applied. It is rusty, iron rich dirt and mud
that they have intentionally rubbed themselves with. And while it's
not one hundred percent known why they do this, the
(01:00:00):
thought is that it makes them more sexually attractive. So
both the males and females do this, so gender equity hooray.
And they probably do it to appear more mature and
more attractive to mates, and they might also do it
to make themselves look more impressive to their peers, regardless
(01:00:20):
of whether they want to mate, so that they know, like,
this is a fit, healthy, beautiful makeup wearing bearded vulture,
and I probably shouldn't try to mess with them or
invade their territory, so you know it is. It's one
of those things where like anyone who wears makeup might
(01:00:40):
feel the same way, whereast you do it sometimes because
you want to be attractive to people you are sexually
interested in, and sometimes you do it because you just
want to look impressive and send a message about yourself,
or just because you like how you look in the mirror.
Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
See it looks to me and again I am pulling
a fact straight out of my butt. It looks like that.
It spreads the red dirt around its face to look
like blood, as if as in I just got finished
eating some big, bloody animal. Don't mess with me.
Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
You think that.
Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
But the thing is, these guys don't get too much
gore on themselves, given that they eat bones.
Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
They you know, that's not what they actually do. I'm
saying that maybe just it's like a it's it's an
affectation they see they saw like polar bears. They get
like the blood all over the fer and it looks
so bad at r yeah yeah. Or it could be
could look like barbecue sauce.
Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
Barbecue sauce. I think it's the barbecue sauce because like
if you know someone's got a good sauce on like that,
they have a barbecue sauce that's so good that they
don't feel self conscious about it, dribbling everywhere.
Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
That's the barber.
Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
I want to go to w I hang out with
that guy right, well know war about him? Can you
imagine being someone who can eat bones whole and be
at a barbecue. It's like you've got even more ribs
to enjoy. All right, So onto this week's mystery animal sound.
The hint is this, This ferocious wild carnivore would eat
(01:02:23):
you if only it didn't fit inside your pocket. All right,
did you hear that little sound?
Speaker 3 (01:02:31):
So that sounded to me like a little kitten meowing.
But but because I know how this show runs and
that it is a labyrinth of lies that is probably
trying to throw me off, so I'm going to say
that is a he said it's a predator that can
(01:02:54):
fit in your pocket. So I'm gonna say that is
a South American microgator, the brand of tiny little four
inch long alligators that live down there.
Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Oh man, I wish, oh, I would love that. I
would break my own rule of one shouldn't keep exotic
pets if there were microgators that would stay tiny forever.
Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Ugh, so cute.
Speaker 3 (01:03:20):
They're chubby, they're almost round, and they can barely walk
over the stumpy legs.
Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Aw so cute. Ah.
Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
But yes, that is a great guess. We will find
out next time on Creature Feature what this little mystery
muling sound is. Uh. If you think you know you
can write to me at Creature Featurepod at gmail dot com.
You can also write to me with questions every so often.
I have a whole episode dedicated to answering your questions,
(01:03:51):
and I also respond to your questions via email. Jason,
thank you so much for joining me. You got anything
to promote Slash? Where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
A new book is out on October thirty first, twenty
twenty three. If you are listening to this in the future,
it's already out. It is called Zoe Is Too Drunk
for This dystopia part of the Zoe Ash series, available
in every possible format. If you want to follow me
on TikTok, I am Jason K. Pargin p r gi
(01:04:24):
N on TikTok, but I'm also that on Twitter and
threads and blue Sky and Instagram and YouTube and several others.
Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
Thank you guys so much for listening. If you're enjoying
the show and you leave a rating or review, I
am just so grateful because they help and I read
all the reviews and I appreciate all that feedback is
so good. It feeds me, it nourishes me. And thanks
to the Space Classics for their super awesome song Exo Lumina.
(01:04:58):
Reach Your features a production of iHeart Radio. For more
podcasts like the ones you just heard, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or Hey guess what wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. I don't care. I'm not your mother.
See you next Wednesday,
Welcome to Creature feature production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host
of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology,
and today on the show, I a new tongue of toad, well,
more like excreation of toad. We're talking about the natural poisonous,
which is bruise of the animal kingdom, from trippy toads
(00:32):
to petrifying platypuses. We're talking about animals who snow white
might want to keep some distance from. Discover this and more.
As we answered the age old question, should we talk
about the birds, bees, and snakes given that snake bites
can reverse puberty. Joining me today is author of the
(00:53):
John Dyes at the End series and the new book
Zoe Is Too Drunk for This Dystopia.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Jason Pargin Welcome.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
Very eager to talk about this because my understanding of
all of nature prior to today was that everything on
Earth exists for humans to eat, like that's why the
planet is here. It is a buffet. So finding out
that some of these things can really mess you up
in ways that seem like a witch's curse is very shocking.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
I mean, look, you still can't eat it. Technically what
happens after is just you know, that's.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
Up to you.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
I just feel like it's irresponsible on the animal's part,
right because it's like, what's what's the point of that?
You are, you're walking food. You you surely realize this.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
It's as if they don't want us to eat them,
which can't be true.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I don't understand, but we'll get into it because they
may have ulterior motives, but ultimately I think it's just
something it's a misunderstanding.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Well, Jason, I'm sure you've heard of psychedelic toads. In fact,
I'm one hundred percent sure, because you were the one
who was interested in talking about them today.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Yeah, I only know it as a pop culture phenomenon.
It's something that you constantly hear, you know, you see
it in movies or whatever, where they will lick a
toad in the desert. I think there's a Simpsons episode
where it happens. And I have always assumed that that
is not strictly true, that you could not just literally
pick it up, lick its back, and then suddenly start tripping.
I assumed it's one of those things that just pervaded
(02:30):
into pop culture. But it's more real than what I thought.
But I've never known why such a creature exists or
how we found out such a creature exists.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Yeah, so it is a mixture of truths and half truths,
but mostly it is as weird as pop culture would
make it sound. Of course, I'm going to start this
by saying, don't lick toads, even if you think you'll
get high. They're much more likely to make you sick.
(03:03):
And also it's mean to the toad. Did you get
that toad's consent? I don't think so. So that being said,
it is true that psychedelic toad toxin is a real thing,
and human beings do ingest it recreationally. Typically though it
(03:24):
is not through licking the toad, but it goes through
a whole process before being ingested. Usually it's smoked. I'm
not gonna go into detail about how it's made, partially
because I don't know, and partially because I don't want
the dea on my butt. But yes, I suffice it
(03:46):
to say that people can and do have psychedelic experiences
with toad toxin, and it's usually processed before they ingest it,
and it's not the best thing for the toad to do,
so it's not a victimless crime.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Generally, if you've been rolled up and smoked, you're probably
not still alive, regardless of what kind of a life
form you are.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
I mean, it's I don't think they make just a
fat dube out of the toad. They generally will scrape
the toxin off the toad. It doesn't have to kill
the toad, but it's not a good situation, Like the
toad's basically getting milked getting scraped, and that is not
(04:39):
a great situation for the toad. In fact, there are
like poachers who try to get these toads. There's also
people who try to farm these toads, and farming is
actually quite bad for toads because there are a lot
of fungal infections that really threaten toad populations. And when
(05:00):
you have a bunch of toads kind of in a
concentrated area on some kind of toad farm, you greatly
increase the chance of these fungal infection spreading and then
it could potentially spread a wild population. So it's not
exactly a sustainable drug toad psychedelic toxin, but that doesn't
stop people from necessarily.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
Trying to do it.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
By the way, there could be a whole separate episode
in the fact that we humans tend to assume that
basically anything can be farmed. Yeah, a big controversy over
octopus farming because it's a delicacy and they're like, well,
let's just farm them, as like, these are intelligent creatures.
Not everything has been domesticated over tens of thousands of
years to be suitable to be herded and bred or
(05:45):
whatever en mass. So yeah, it's not just these tots.
There's lots of creatures that don't do well because that
is very unnatural in terms of environment for them.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
Yeah, I mean exactly right, Like there, you can't just
farm an exotic gam animal and expect that to turn
out well for either the animal or for you. The
farm animals that we have right now, I mean, of
course farming is not always great even for them, but
(06:14):
they have been selected over many thousands of years for domestications,
so yeah, that's quite a bit of a different situation.
You can't just saddle up a toad and expect it
to be like a cow or something where you can
go and milk the toads every morning. But toads do
(06:37):
produce a toxin, and it's not created to make us
get high. It is actually there to protect them from predators.
So there are lots of toads and frog species as
well that produce toxins, and that toxin is truly intended
(06:58):
to ward off predators. So the toad will ooze toxin
when it feels threatened, usually from a few glands on
its body, and predators will either get sick or disgusted
and will either stop trying to eat the toad and
release it, or become sick after eating the toad, learning
(07:21):
a very painful lesson and in some cases, potentially lethal
lesson that this toad is not good to eat.
Speaker 3 (07:31):
I find this absolutely fascinating because it is something I
had literally never thought of before, that you have a
defense that doesn't necessarily save that individual toad, because, as
you can imagine, you've seen predators eat a lot of them,
do not gingerly test the food before they A lot
of them just snap it up and swallow it, and
(07:52):
so it would be them getting sick and then learning
not to eat other similar toads. In other words, the
fence is not necessarily to save that toad. It's a
collective defense, like, hey, don't I have sacrificed myself to
teach you not to eat the other toads like me, which,
of course the toad does not have that thought or
(08:15):
any thought. But the way that a defense evolved in
that manner, I think is really interesting. I think it's
kind of inspirational because it's like, well, sometimes in your
own life you may run into a disaster, but this
is the world using you as an example to teach other.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
People, right, I mean it is so there are animals,
including these toads. The toads can sometimes survive this, and
in fact, sometimes like the predator will just get a
whiff of this tox and like kind of get it
on their nose or on their mouth and lips and
realize something's off. Some toads are able to spray it
(08:58):
a little bit so that it's definitely a warning to
the predator to back off. But there are animals certainly
where it is rare for them, despite their talks and
to survive a predator encounter, including butterflies. So butterflies, there
are a lot of butterfly species, like monarchs, who are toxic.
They are not good to eat, and they do not
(09:23):
necessarily survive if a bird tries it, Like they're very
delicate creatures. The bird, if it even does spit it out,
that butterfly is probably not gonna make it. However, you
still see this protective effect of butterflies, like butterflies like monarchs,
having this warning coloration called apisimitism, which deters predators like
(09:47):
birds from eating them, despite the fact it doesn't necessarily
prevent that first individual that gets eaten by a bird.
So it's not an altruistic thing, right, Like, it's not
somehow these butterfli having a collective consciousness of we are
going to save future butterflies. So because like you can imagine,
(10:10):
like say you have a butterfly who develops this trait
and it doesn't help itself at all, it gets eaten.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
Well, those genes.
Speaker 1 (10:18):
Don't get passed on, So how does this ball even
get rolling in the first place. You need like a
critical mass of the butterfly population who have this mutation
or development that actually survive. And so one of the
theories is that the same adaptation of the bright colors
(10:39):
and the toxicity also helps it survive in other ways.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
So the bright coloration, the.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Toxicity may make them more viable to be able to
produce offspring, even beyond just being preyed upon. So, for instance,
that bright coloration makes it more noticeable to the opposite
sex and allows it more mating opportunities, and maybe the
toxin helps protect it from parasites, and so those things
(11:10):
already make it more likely to pass on its genes.
And then you get this added benefit of predators learning, hey,
these really bright butterflies are nasty and they give me
a tummy ache. So you have this kind of two
pronged thing where it enough of them evolve this characteristic,
perhaps for unrelated reasons, but then it also has this
(11:32):
population protective effect of these predators learning the really bright
monarchy butterflies are discussed and they make me puke. So
it is really interesting. In fact, there are butterfly species
who are not toxic who have adapted to take advantage
(11:54):
of this apisomatic protection that the toxic species have. So
you'll have a mimic it was not toxic, could be eaten,
you know, delicious butterfly, and then it copies the look
of a toxic butterflies. This is called Baitsian mimicry. Uh
So then the tasty butterfly benefits from that protection because
(12:17):
a bird looks at it and says, this looks like
one of the yucky butterflies. I'm not going to eat it.
The really interesting thing is if these mimics are too numerous,
it actually dilutes the effect efficacy of the protective coloration
because then birds learn like, actually, when I eat these
are really bright butterflies. Uh, they they're fine. I'm okay.
(12:40):
It's like, you know, you have enough of the false
signal to bury the real signal. So you have these
population dynamics where the mimics have to be in low
enough numbers in order for the bait the for the
apisomatic coloration to actually benefit them. So you see this
like these poppy dynamics where the if the mimic population
(13:04):
gets too many, you have this like crash in the
population and then a rise in the population of.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
The toxic butterflies.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
It's really it's very interesting mathematically, which we won't talk
about the math because I cannot no, but I love.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
This because it's such a great demonstration of how this
is all a machine. So, for example, if you have
coloration that is supposed to signal to predators or I
keep using terminology like it's designed you are supposed to
you as if the butterflies play in this. I of
course know that's not how this works.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
It's just so hard to get away from that language
because this is how human beings work. So like we
have intention, we have we design things, and so we
use that kind of language when we're talking about things
that don't have that. But it's really hard, even if
we understand that's not the case, it's hard to not
use that language.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
You and I are primates and tool users, so we
want to see things through the lens of This is
a tool they designed, because that's how we always see
the world. That's our evolution. But for example, if you
have a specific predator, say a bird, your coloration only
works in a range of colors that that's bird's eyes
(14:21):
can see. It does you no good if that so
your color is somewhat is partly dictated by the design
of the eyes of the birds that are eating you.
And whether or not this mimicry works gets back to
the whatever the rudimentary psychology or decision making of the bird.
(14:42):
I know birds do not have psychology, but they do
have a decision making process in terms of in terms
of the risk reward, Like am I going to risk
if I know the only one out of fifty of
these is poisonous and it's like no, fine, I'll happily
risk that. But every animal has different concept of risk.
That is something else that evolves. You know that the
(15:03):
scarcity of food changes that equation. So the the way,
the decision making, the eyes, the sense organs of your
enemies dictate what you will look like and how you act.
Speaker 1 (15:17):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean these these relationships between animals can
be very close, regardless of whether it is you know,
symbiotic in sort of a mutualism where it's mutually beneficial
or symbiotic and predator prayer relationships. You know, you can
have a very close relationship with between two animals where
(15:40):
they are constantly trying to either evade or kill each other,
but they still have this very intimate connection because they
are shaping each other's evolution and in fact they can
have in it. Like if you know, people think, well,
if you remove a predator, that's really good for the
prey population because they never have they don't have to
contend with that predator. Well, in fact, sometimes if you
(16:01):
remove a predator, the prey population is in danger because
they become too numerous, they compete for more resources, they
spread disease. So yeah, these relationships relationships are very fascinating,
and you really there is no animal is an island.
Everyone is sort of you know, pushing and squeezing on
(16:22):
the other through evolutionary history and shaping what the other
animal looks like, what it does, everything about it, I mean,
ourselves included. Now that we've talked a little bit about
the background behind why animals have these toxins, let's talk
about one of the most famous psychedelic toads, the Sonoran
desert toad. It is found in southwestern United States and
(16:46):
northwestern Mexico. It is a brownish green warty toad that
lives in areas that go through wet and dry seasons,
and actually during the dry season, the toad lives in
burrows underground and it comes up during what summer seasons.
They emerge and they congregate in rivers, streams, ponds, or
(17:08):
swimming pools because human neighborhoods are often within the fro
within the toad's range, and this is the call it
makes when it's trying to find a mate. That's a
pretty sound. I like it, little little humming sound. So
(17:30):
they seem really innocuous, and yet they excrete a potent
toxin from glands behind their eyes and on their legs.
So this toxin can be deadly or at the very
least make predators very sick. And you know, hopefully the
(17:50):
predator will release the toad after getting a mouthful of
this toxin, but you know, if they go through with
consuming it, they can either get really.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Sick or even die.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
And this is actually a problem for domesticated dogs who
can be very curious about the toad. But in terms
of human interactions with this toad, the toxin also contains DMT,
which might sound familiar to some of you. It is
a psychoactive compound and when smoked, this compound can cause
(18:27):
a psychedelic trip with hallucinations, sometimes feelings of euphoria. You know,
sometimes it can go very wrong. Like psychedelic trips can
either be pleasant or be horrifying. It's I think somewhat
dependent on your frame of mind at the time, your
own individual physiology. But yeah, so the compound in this
(18:50):
toad toxin binds to serotonin receptors and other neurotransmitter receptors,
which alters the concentration of neurotransmitters and neural activation. So
it very directly interferes with the firing of your neurons
and the abundance of neurotransmitters in your brain. And so
(19:15):
it is a really interesting thing that you know, this toxin,
which is not created so that we can get high,
it's for a totally different reason, can directly bounce around
in our brains make us go into a completely altered
state of mind where people see things, that they feel
things very differently how they normally would.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
It is truly.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Bizarre, and is other things in nature that caused us effect,
like of course mushrooms, and I think there's various types
of even there's like a lichen or a fungus to
something else that if you lick it off a rock
you can get you high. Is it all the same thing?
Are these all defenses against because other creatures would find
that fatal rather than t off that as a generally?
(20:01):
Have they all evolved for that same reason?
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I don't know if every single one of them has,
but all of the ones that I know of are
defensive toxins that have that are there for, uh, trying
to deter predators that might eat them, certainly on toads.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Yeah, I think that is the case.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
Uh, And I mean it's kind of funny because even
though those are meant to be defensive toxins to prevent
predators from eating them, occasionally animals will actually catch on
to the fact that this can get them high and
they will try to lick the toxin off of the toad.
(20:47):
So this is I don't know all of the animals
who do this, but dogs, domesticated dogs and horses have
been observed licking these toads, and it's not a great thing.
Like Australian dogs, Domesticated dogs in Australia often lick cane
(21:08):
toads and while it isn't necessarily deadly if they just
do a few licks, if they overindulge in the cane toad,
they can get really sick and have to go to
the vet. And in South America, horses have been known
to lick the waxy tree frog, which is another psychedelic
(21:30):
species of frog. And it yeah, they they seemingly just
do it because they've learned it gets them high and
they likes to do it.
Speaker 3 (21:44):
I find that equally fascinating because I would assume, like
to what degree a horse can hallucinate, Like, I assume
this is something that we simply that we simply don't
know the details of, Like we can observe their behavior,
we can observe that they seem to go into a
state or don't seem aware of what they are or whatever.
(22:04):
But I would assume from the animal's point of view,
it's just a feeling of care free pleasure or whatever,
because from an evolutionary point of view, you would think
this would be extremely risky to put yourself in a
situation where you're now not aware of your surroundings or
are seeing things that are not there, Like, even if
it's fun, it seems like, especially as nervous as horses are,
(22:26):
being prey animals, it's very easy for them to harm themselves.
Like if I can imagine one hallucinating, you know, a
wolf for a bird of prey or something else that's
frightened up and then running itself to death or whatever.
I find that fascinating that they do it anyway, because
again we know that people do it, but when people
do it, you always describe some very human reason that
(22:49):
we're trying to fight off our anxiety or we're trying
to find some deeper meaning in the universe. But a
dog is not doing that. A dog is just it
just feels feels good.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
I guess yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I mean, I do think any animal that can perceive
the world in some way can hallucinate, because hallucination is
just the activation of your perceptive areas of the brain,
your sensory areas of the brain, without there actually being
an external stimuli. So any animal, I think with that,
(23:25):
with the ability to perceive, has the ability to hallucinate.
We of course wouldn't necessarily know what those hallucinations would
be like. But I do think that the dogs and
the horses who are doing this are doing it for
the euphoria. And animals are not perfect machines, right, like,
(23:48):
including humans, we can't know, Like, even though evolution favors
us to do things that are in our own best
interest in terms of survival, that doesn't mean we're going
to do it when they're The reward system that keeps
us alive also is activated by things that hurt us,
so they they like, you know, the this is the
(24:12):
serotonin system that is you know, part of the the
impact of the toxin has on serotonin receptors, which is
one of the sort of reward systems of the brain.
And so getting that getting that high, getting that reward
is so appealing. I mean, you see that with with
human habits, right, Like, we do things all the time
(24:34):
that are bad for us, but we have such a
powerful reward system in the brain. You know, evolution cannot
predict all of these sort of you know, loopholes in
terms of things that like, hey, I feel good when
I eat an apple when I'm hungry, and that's good
because that keeps me from keeling over and dying of hunger.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
And there's no way, as we're evolving for evolution to
some how have kind of a omniscient understanding that like, well,
I better make sure that the same system I do
when they eat the apple also doesn't activate when they
like drink too much wine or eat a bunch of sugar,
because those things aren't good for them. You know. It's
(25:17):
if those reward systems are still activated, we're gonna do it,
perhaps absent some sort of wisdom that this is harming
us because it feels good and our brain is completely
primed to give into those reward systems, because generally those
things have kept us alive for thousands, hundreds of thousands
(25:39):
of years.
Speaker 3 (25:41):
You get these paradoxes where things like hot peppers, you know,
those are that is a mechanism to deter certain animals
from eating, to deter the wrong animals from eating the
fruit of these of these plants. Right, they have the
capsaisent or water the chemical is that will burn their
tongue or whatever. And then here we people breed these
(26:05):
things and make them into sauces because we have decided
that the whatever it is, the adrenaline rush of the
mild pain on the tongue enhances flavor or the experience
somehow like the pain that this thing is trying to generate.
It's like, yes, we have evolved to enjoy that, if
in a specific amount. But if you could, if you
(26:27):
could somehow make a chili pepper scentient and then make
it watch that YouTube show where the people eat the
wings with the increasingly hot sauces on them. The pepper
would probably be very surprised.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
I mean, the pepper would think we're all perverts because
we're all masochistically subjecting ourselves to this pain. I mean
it is weird, wrong, it is very interesting. I mean,
there are other benefits to spicy food. It makes you sweat,
which can help you cool off in uh in hot
(27:00):
or humid environments. And it also has some ability to
mask the taste of food that's gone off a bit
but you can still eat it, or food that's maybe
not you know, great tasting, but then the spiciness makes
it taste okay because you're so focused on the spiciness,
(27:22):
and it's you know, people do you know.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
I mean, I'm one of them.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I enjoy spice, not extreme spiciness. I can't eat when
my eyes are full of tears and there's not running
down my face. But I like a good amount of spice.
And it takes a little while to ramp up to
getting some spice. But it's it's like a weirdly Yeah,
it's like you associate it with You start to associate
(27:46):
it with this good flavored food and the spice somehow
enhances the flavor of the food or enhances the experience
of the food. It's really interesting. So, yeah, we will
subject ourselves even to pain because our reward system is
very complex and will activate even when we're doing things
(28:08):
that doesn't seem like it's in our best interest. Although
spicy food, as long as you don't over indulge, won't
hurt you. If you do overindulge, you'll punish yourself and
your bathroom.
Speaker 3 (28:20):
Huge spots of human behavior falls into this category of
things where we are mildly abusing ourselves in some way
that provides us some different pleasure. The whole complex interaction
of that is basically how all of society works.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (28:36):
So we're going to take a quick break and when
we get back, we're going to talk about an animal
who is surprisingly dangerous and also, in the spirit of
what we've been talking about, how humans look at that
and see opportunity. All right, so we are back and
(28:59):
we're going to about a cute little animal who is
kind of surprisingly terrifying.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
So platypusses.
Speaker 1 (29:09):
Platypusses are small, cute, little monotremes found in Australia. I
think sometimes people are surprised by the size of them,
because like, at least when I used to think of platypus,
I would think of something like that's beaver sized, because
for some reason I put them in the same category
(29:31):
as beaver. Hey, it's an aquatic mammal and it swims
around and it's got that long, that flat tail, so
I thought, you know, it's like beaver size. They're actually
quite small. They can fit into your cupped hands. They're
much smaller than a beaver, and they eat earthworms mostly.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
They lay eggs. They have a bill.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Female platypusses will seep milk out of their bellies to
feed their young, so they don't have nipples. They just
have pores on their tummies that basically leak milk, and
so they are this kind of archaic version of mammals.
They're still mammals, but they are monotremes. They're related to
(30:19):
echidneas as well, and males have a venomous spur on
their heel that can dose you with a potent, very
painful toxin.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
Okay, before we get into the point of this, which
is the fact that males have the toxic spurs, is
there honestly no type of plat platypus that is like big,
because I instantly in my mind am imagining many, many
thousands of photos and videos of these things being like
(30:53):
big enough to sit on your desk and cover most
of it, like a large eyes a beaver bilt maybe
slightly larger than a beaver. No, I'm very eager to
hear if there are other listeners who are stunned to
find out that platypuses are small, because I don't know
where this started, but this is like a Berenstain Bears
thing for me. I'm now going to go look, and
I know for a fact it's going to turn out
(31:14):
that you're right. I'm not going to find a single
photo of somebody like cradling this thing in both arms.
But man, I'm for some reason, I'm really surprised to hear.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
That, Yeah, they don't get that big. The things that
do get big. It's interesting. Echidnas actually do get large,
Like echidnas can get much larger than a platypus. Wombats too,
those can get quite large. So there are monotremes u
and marsupials that can get big, and yeah, it really is.
(31:49):
It's one of those things. For me, I suspect it's
because I have placed beaver and like platypus is Australian
beaver essentially, and beaver's can get to be quite big.
But yeah, the platypus is no, they they tend to
stay relatively small. You know, it's about chihuahua size or smaller.
(32:12):
Very weird, right, No, I get it because I had
this misconception as well, and I was surprised to find
out that they really don't get that big. But despite
being small, they can pack a punch with that venomous spur.
So it's thought that this venomous spur was common among
archaic mammals and that the platypus inherited it from its ancestors.
(32:38):
It is actually found in echidnas, the other this other
type of monotorum, but it is a vestigial trait, so
the spur does not actually contain any venom and the
echidna so the venom is only found in the male platypus.
The spike is this curved, hollow, caratinous structure, so it's
(33:03):
the same material as claws or fingernails, but it is
attached to a venom gland that is potent enough to
kill a dog. The venom actually doesn't seem to kill
other platypuses. There seems to be some amount of resistance
to their own venom, though they can be immobilized by
(33:24):
it or paralyzed by it, so the venom cannot kill
a human. You might be breathing a sigh of relief,
but hang on, it can ruin your day, your week,
or possibly many months, because it can have an effect
that is very painful, lasts a long time, and is
(33:47):
resistant to most of our strongest painkillers. So the pain
was first described in scientific literature in eighteen seventy six
by a natural William Webb Spicer, who wrote of this
unnamed victim quote, the pain was intense and almost paralyzing.
(34:08):
But for the administration of small doses of Brandy, he
would have fainted on the spot. As it was, it
was half an hour before he could stand without support.
By that time, the arm was swollen to the shoulder
and quite useless, and the pain in the hand very severe.
Speaker 3 (34:27):
So, I mean, medicine was awesome. I've tried every type
of liquor on my shelf and the patient still has
not recovered. It appears that this bite is with stands
even the finest of whiskey.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
I mean, honestly, so these stings are The pain is
resistant to morphine and other painkillers, modern medical painkillers. So
I don't know. I don't know whether brandy wouldn't be
better in this situation because morphine does not really seem
(35:06):
to work very well against platypus venom, which is kind
of horrifying given that the pain can last hours or
days or weeks, or in a few extreme cases it's
lasted months. So there was a case of a fifty
seven year old victim whose afflicted hand remained sensitive and
(35:26):
in pain for around three months, which you know, you
might think, well, like three months, you know, I could
handle that, but just it's your hand, Like, imagine it
being swollen and in pain, just from this little cute
duck mammal that you found, and it just it seemed
(35:48):
like it was gonna be fine, and it heal kicked
you into pain for three months.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
See, that's the thing, because if you spend time on
say TikTok, you find out that, especially in the social
media era, we people have decided that the whole world
is just full of our pets and potential pets. Like
people will approach bison and elk and all of these
because after all, this is nature. These are animals. They
(36:16):
are peaceful animals who coexist in nature. So they will
go get a selfie or a photo or a video
of them petting a bison or a bull or whatever.
So something like a platypus. If you were an American
vacationing in Australia and trying to get some great video
and you've saw one of these things by somebody of water,
(36:39):
oh my god, would you want to pick that thing
up and get video of it? Because it's a little
duck duck build duck build mouse thing. So when this
thing stings you and then you find out that this
is like worse than the average snake bite, apparently because
most snake bites aren't that bad, and you're so having
(37:00):
paid weeks later, I think you would be very surprised
and disappointed in nature.
Speaker 1 (37:06):
Yeah, I have seen this trend on TikTok of people
picking up animals and then twirling around with them like
they're in that scene from the Titanic. I'm gonna go
ahead and say don't do that. Maybe don't do that,
primarily because that's gonna annoy the animal. The animal is
not Rose from the Titanic. It does not want to
(37:28):
be twirled like a baroness. It wants to be left
that heck alone. Secondary reason is you never know when
an animal got a poisonous barb and is gonna sting
you with it. I'm not gonna say that. There aren't
many animals out there who are secretly poisonous or secretly
venomous just so people will not mess with them as much. Bison,
(37:52):
they've got a giant unicorn horn that can invenimate you. Actually, no,
they can just gore you. And that's probably good enough.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
I am telling everyone in the sound of my voice,
all of these creatures can move faster than you think. Yes,
there is horrifying video of people who thought it would
be fun to approach an alligator or a crocodile, because,
after all, they are very slow. They kind of float
in the water like logs, and they would get It's like, well,
(38:23):
I've watched Steve Berwin. You know, they'll like get on
top of it and get a video of it, like
stroking it's back or something. And they can bite so
fast yep, that the camera doesn't capture the motion. There's
a splash and then your hand is gone. Yeah, because
you have to understand, these things evolved to be able
(38:45):
to bite faster than a deer can react and you're
just a person who works in an office. I promise
you you do not perceive how fast nature moves and
how fast the average predator can bite because they have
to bite faster than you can see or they would starve.
(39:09):
They can bite in a fraction of a second. They
can complete the motion. You will not get out of
the way. I think a lifetime of watching movies and
wild animals and movies where it's a cg animal and
the guys having to fight it or whatever jump out
of the way. It's like, no, in real life, if
it decides to buy you, you're not going to know
(39:30):
it until your hand is already gone.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, there's this like famous photo of a human arm
in I believe it was an alligator. It could have
been a crocodile, but it had it in its mouth
and it's just like this inert hand in its mouth.
I think it was at It may have been at
a zoo or a nature preserve, so I think it
(39:56):
was actually the hand of a professional. So if a
professional sometimes lose this is hand to alligators and crocodiles,
most of us don't really have a chance. But you
know again, human beings, we're endlessly innovative and interested in
running towards the danger in case it might improve our lot.
(40:18):
The very horrifying venom of the platypus that is resistant
to painkillers and can last for weeks or months. Some
people are like, hey, that's great, let's study it because
we might actually discover more about pain management and new
ways to relieve pain that doesn't involve opiates, or to
(40:40):
address pain that doesn't respond well to our current painkillers.
So I do appreciate that part of the human spirit
where we were like, this is horrible and deadly. Maybe
it's medicine, and often it is. It's like we've done
this with stak venom, We've done this with various dangerous compounds,
(41:03):
where we're like, well, this is horrible and does bad
stuff to our blood and our bodies. Maybe that means
it can be medicine. And that's how we've created things
like anticoagulants or pro coagulants that can help people because
we're masochists who enjoy the thrill of subjecting ourselves to
(41:27):
weird and terrifying stuff.
Speaker 3 (41:31):
Or maybe it could be a weapon, if you're looking
for some sort of a chemical weapon that could not
be treated by painkillers. It's like, hey, the platypuses have
mastered this, let's learn their ways.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
I like the idea of having our armies just be
little platypuses. That would be adorable. Most adorable war crime
would be torturing someone with a platypus.
Speaker 3 (41:57):
Just dropping them out of planes, little tiny pear chutes.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Well, we're going to take a quick break, but when
we get back, we're going to talk about an animal
who actually does have a medical use and sometimes creates
a medical marvel that is very rare and very weird.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
So we will be right back.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
So, Jason, you actually brought this up to me, which
I found really interesting. I was skeptical and then I
looked into it and it is actually true. It is
a snake bite that has been known to cause so
called reverse puberty to the rare, unlucky victim. So this
(42:44):
is courtesy of the Russell's vipers. So Russell's vipers are
found in and near India. It is a large brown
snake about four feet long so over a meter, with
brown oval patterns. It is I'm not gonna say it
(43:05):
looks like a rattlesnake because it's missing the rattle and
rattlesnakes are much bumpier. But the patterns on its skin
are somewhat similar. This is exactly the kind of snake
to be wary of. I do love to talk about
snakes on the podcast that you do not need to
be so scared of and that we should love and appreciate.
Speaker 2 (43:24):
This is one you should be scared of.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
And while we can love and appreciate it, we gotta
do it from afar because it is venomous and they
like to hang out near human areas. They do this
because when there's human activity, there is rodent activity. The
rodents like to eat our food and our waste, and
the snakes like to eat the rodents, and so these
snakes will be found around people. And their venom is
(43:49):
very potent and it can hurt and kill people, and
it has so. Without treatment, their venom can be very
deadly to humans and cause problems such as black from
the gums, blood in the urine, blistering, and necrosis that
means the death of the tissue near the bite. Can
cause facial swelling, vomiting, kidney failure, blood clots, blood poisoning,
(44:13):
and heart failure. Pain can last for weeks following the bite.
Like a lot of snake venom, it can interfere with
clotting blood clotting, so the venom can cause both blood
clotting and bleeding, so destruction of the blood vessels and
(44:36):
the increase in blood clot formation, which is a kind
of weird and horrible combination. But it's so good at
inducing blood clots, which can cause problems in vivo in
the human body, but in vitro. It is used in
medical laboratory settings to test the clotting ability of blood,
(45:00):
so this is really useful actually to look for the
presence of something called lupus anticoagulant. So if the blood
clots in the standard amount of time when given a
little drop of this snake venom, it means that this
lupus anticoagulant is not present, But if it takes longer,
it indicates the presence of this lupus anti coagulant that
(45:23):
interferes with the development of clots. I could get into
a whole explanation about what lupus anticoagulant is, because it's
actually a pro coagulant in the body and it's confusing,
but that seems like a topic for a medical podcast,
not this one. But the point is that this snake
(45:44):
venom is actually an important and useful medical diagnostic tool, and.
Speaker 3 (45:51):
Me today it is. But the reason I wanted to
talk about this one is because I have this belief
that I think most cultures, most human cultures, have specific
beliefs about snakes and that they are you know, because obviously,
and you know in our culture we have the snake
and the Bible and whatever it refers to serpents, they're
(46:11):
very apocalyptic or devious. I think the idea that snakes
are cursed in some way comes to the fact that
when when they get a bite, it's not just that
it swells up and hurts. You get effects that are weird,
Like you look at the list of you know what
(46:32):
in the urine, bleeding from the gums. It would have
to seem like a curse like you had been if
you were an ancient people, it not seemed like you
were bit by an animal, but that this animal has
cursed you with a whole range of ailments that don't
seem to have anything to do with the bite.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Yeah, that's what's spooky about snake venom is that it
has such a wide range of effects, like over the
whole body, and it creates these like hellish symptoms and
people that are scary to look at, even more.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
Scared as one of them. Your face swells up was
one of the symptoms. So it's uncontrollable vomiting and your
face is swelling and there's blood in your urine, like
you would just have to feel like this is a
league you've been attacked with.
Speaker 1 (47:21):
Yeah, it's horrible, horrible, horrible, it's I mean, you know,
it's so important that we have anti venom because anti
venom treatment can prevent or help reduce symptoms and it
can save your life. An answer to your you wanted
to know if we still use the snake venom in
diagnostic tests, and yes we do.
Speaker 2 (47:42):
It's called diluted Russell.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
Viper venom time dr VVT, which is a very popular
test used in labs for trying to find this loopus anticoagulant. So,
as far as I know, this test is still used.
It sounds like archaic, but if it works, it works.
(48:04):
I mean, once you have a compound that can induce
coagulation and blood, that is very useful for testing whether
the blood is able to coagulate at all. Another interesting
medical phenomenon with this snake is the so called reverse
puberty that it can cause. So reverse puberty doesn't really
(48:28):
mean you turn back into a teenager and go full
Benjamin Buttons, but it does mean that sexually mature characteristics
can be either interfered with or revert. So medically speaking,
this is a case of hypopituitarism, so that means that
the pituitary gland is not as active as it should
(48:52):
be or is not at all active. So the peituitary
gland is responsible for producing hormones that they regular a
lot of bodily processes, but that includes things associated with
puberty and post puberty. So the way this snake messes
with your sexual characteristics is that the Russell's viper venom
(49:17):
can cause bleeding or clotting in the pituitary gland, which
damages it and disrupts its function, and this can cause
in rare cases, and in the rare cases that this happens,
this can cause pubic or armpit hair loss. It can
interfere with the minstrel cycle, either stopping it or causing irregularity.
(49:43):
It can decrease libido and cause rectile and sexual dysfunction.
So yeah, very much like a witch's curse this venom.
It's so bad because it's actively damaging the tissue of
the p puuritary gland in these cases, and so you know,
(50:03):
in these rare cases that this happens, people sometimes have
to go on hormone treatment for life because the puritary
gland it can no longer function, it can't heal, and
so they have to receive hormone treatments for the rest
of their life to treat these issues and to keep
(50:23):
their body functioning normally.
Speaker 3 (50:26):
And it seems to an ancient people or even just
in a part of the world where they don't have
great modern education, it's so different from you know, if
you get bitten by a lion or an alligator, it
bites you, it is chewed off a part of your arm,
it's trying to eat you. That's extremely clear what's happening there,
(50:46):
the idea of getting bit by a snake and that
over the course of months, your whole body changes in ways.
It seems to be reverting you to youth or whatever,
like certain hair falls out and you're sexual performance changes
or all of these various effects that are just hormonal.
If you don't know the mechanism of that, you would
(51:08):
have to think like you would have to go looking
for the snake to find out how to appease it
or something to reverse the curse. You would have to
regard it as as some sort of a magical thing.
I would think it just it feels mystical. It doesn't
feel like something an animal should be able to do
to you with a bite.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
I mean, it's so funny too, because the snake has
no interest in causing us harm like this. It really
could not care less about whether our pubic hair falls off.
That venom is mostly for its prey, so it uses
that venom to shock and paralyze and kill its prey,
(51:50):
and that is its preferred usage for it. In fact,
there are a lot of snakes that are venomous, but
when they bite you, they actually do what's called a
dry because they don't want to waste their venom on
you because they would much prefer to use it on
their prey. But if they feel very threatened they will,
(52:11):
or if they mistake you for prey like that, they're
happy enough to use their venom to protect themselves. And
it is it's just weird and kind of unfortunate that
it has such a profound effect on us and has
such like truly like you have.
Speaker 2 (52:34):
Been cursed.
Speaker 1 (52:36):
And it I definitely can see why snakes are involved
in a lot of sort of folklore and mysticism because
it is it is such a such a potent natural
toxin that they have. Before we go, we do got
to play a little game called the Mystery Animal Sound game.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
Every week I play.
Speaker 1 (53:02):
A mystery animal sound and you the listener, and you
the gest try to guess who is making that sound.
It can be any animal. So last week's Mystery animal sound,
the hint was this, This raptor is all about no
shave November?
Speaker 2 (53:27):
All right?
Speaker 1 (53:28):
Could you hear that thing that sounded like a broken
squeaky toy?
Speaker 3 (53:33):
You've already in the hint told us that it's a raptor,
right right, Like it's a type of bird of prey.
Speaker 2 (53:39):
That's right, And you made a.
Speaker 3 (53:41):
Reference to no shave November. Let me try to visualize
it and try to think of what are the mustache
related birds that I know, because there are so many.
I am going to say that is the sound of
(54:01):
a Siberian mustache goal.
Speaker 1 (54:09):
I love it sounds like it could be a real bird. However,
this is the bearded vulture. Congratulations too, the Western Australian
Insects Study Society Anti be and saga E for guessing correctly.
So you're close with that Siberian mustached goal which I
(54:34):
don't believe is a real bird. But maybe if we,
you know, keep our minds open, we will discover such
a bird. Certainly, there aren't.
Speaker 3 (54:42):
Any more ridiculous than the thing you just said there are.
Speaker 1 (54:47):
You can't come up with a bird that doesn't at
least have a counterpart in real life. That is just
as if not more ridiculous. So yes, this is the
bearded vulture. It is found in southern Europe. Actually it's
kind of near me. It's in Grand Paradiso National Park.
I have gone out so many times trying to see
(55:10):
this bird. Never once, never, once have I seen one.
Someday hopefully. It's also found in East Africa, India and
the surrounding area as well as Tibet. So they are
a very large raptor that is a bird of prey.
They have a wingspan that can get up to over
nine feet, so that's nearly three meters of wingspan. That
(55:33):
is Jesus yep, it's a big, big, big old bird.
They are a wonderfully spooky, halloweeny bird because their diet
is almost entirely bones.
Speaker 3 (55:46):
That sounds very cool, but I'm telling you, every single
listener who is imagining in their head this bearded vulture
is picturing the wrong thing. There's almost no way it
has the thick look jurious beard that all of us
want it to have. And I'm worried that if I
go look up a picture of it right now, I'm
going to be extremely disappointed.
Speaker 1 (56:07):
I don't think you will be, because it is a
beautiful bird, so look it up. The reason it's called
bearded is because rather than being bald like most vultures,
it has full head of hair, full head of feathers,
and around its neck and chest it has these beautiful,
(56:32):
scruffy feathers that it looks fantastic. And these feathers often
have this beautiful kind of pink reddish hue, which I'll
talk about why that happens a little bit. But Jason,
have you looked up a photo and are you disappointed?
Speaker 3 (56:50):
I have, and I'm not trying to contradict you, but
I don't think it's called bearded because of the red
feathers on its throat seems to have a little black
goatee style beard dangling down from the base of its beak.
Speaker 2 (57:08):
It could be it does have a little.
Speaker 3 (57:12):
Straight up seems to have a very bad beard, but again.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
It does have a weird little sideburns.
Speaker 3 (57:22):
Like I guess, okay, I see yeah, Like from the side,
I can see someone thinking that it's that that's its
little beard.
Speaker 1 (57:29):
That it's got a little go tea. Yeah, that actually
might be why you might be right, Yes, it has.
Speaker 2 (57:35):
It has that.
Speaker 1 (57:36):
Little weird go tea and then a pink these pinkish
red scruffy neck feathers and then sort of black and
white feathers on the rest of it. It's truly an
amazing looking bird. I think it's beautiful, actually it is.
Speaker 3 (57:54):
The problem is that the beard is the least impressive part.
The beard looks like it's kind of been dyed black,
like a worst dad who grew out like a go
tee and doesn't know he's like trying to start a
band or something, and he's like in his forties and
he's like got a dyed black go tea. Like it's
the least impressive feature of the animal. And I think
it's kind of sad that they named it the bearded vulture,
(58:16):
like they're calling out this one feature because that is
the least impressive thing about it, should.
Speaker 1 (58:21):
Be called the soul patch vulture. But nevertheless, they eat bones,
which is pretty metal.
Speaker 2 (58:29):
I love it.
Speaker 1 (58:30):
And it's not just the bone marrow. They eat the
entire bone. They can digest the whole bone. Over ninety
percent of their diet is just bones. Their powerful digestive
juices dissolves the bone. They do need to break apart
the bone into chunks that are small enough that it
can swallow whole, So they either snap apart brittle bones
(58:53):
on the ground, or for the more stubborn bones, they
can pick them up and and drop them from a
height and then it shatters on the ground and they
pick up the little pieces and swallow those whole. So
even though they look like they would attack you and
(59:14):
try to rip out your livery, the most you have
to fear from them is them accidentally dropping a bone
on your head, which is pretty unlikely because their populations
are not that not that big, and their populations have declined,
which is sad. Another cool thing about these guys is,
despite being spooky, bone eating soul patched gods. They also
(59:38):
love makeup, so that beautiful kind of reddish orange pinky
hue on their chest feathers is actually makeup that they
have applied. It is rusty, iron rich dirt and mud
that they have intentionally rubbed themselves with. And while it's
not one hundred percent known why they do this, the
(01:00:00):
thought is that it makes them more sexually attractive. So
both the males and females do this, so gender equity hooray.
And they probably do it to appear more mature and
more attractive to mates, and they might also do it
to make themselves look more impressive to their peers, regardless
(01:00:20):
of whether they want to mate, so that they know, like,
this is a fit, healthy, beautiful makeup wearing bearded vulture,
and I probably shouldn't try to mess with them or
invade their territory, so you know it is. It's one
of those things where like anyone who wears makeup might
(01:00:40):
feel the same way, whereast you do it sometimes because
you want to be attractive to people you are sexually
interested in, and sometimes you do it because you just
want to look impressive and send a message about yourself,
or just because you like how you look in the mirror.
Speaker 3 (01:00:59):
See it looks to me and again I am pulling
a fact straight out of my butt. It looks like that.
It spreads the red dirt around its face to look
like blood, as if as in I just got finished
eating some big, bloody animal. Don't mess with me.
Speaker 2 (01:01:18):
You think that.
Speaker 1 (01:01:19):
But the thing is, these guys don't get too much
gore on themselves, given that they eat bones.
Speaker 3 (01:01:27):
They you know, that's not what they actually do. I'm
saying that maybe just it's like a it's it's an
affectation they see they saw like polar bears. They get
like the blood all over the fer and it looks
so bad at r yeah yeah. Or it could be
could look like barbecue sauce.
Speaker 1 (01:01:44):
Barbecue sauce. I think it's the barbecue sauce because like
if you know someone's got a good sauce on like that,
they have a barbecue sauce that's so good that they
don't feel self conscious about it, dribbling everywhere.
Speaker 2 (01:01:59):
That's the barber.
Speaker 1 (01:02:00):
I want to go to w I hang out with
that guy right, well know war about him? Can you
imagine being someone who can eat bones whole and be
at a barbecue. It's like you've got even more ribs
to enjoy. All right, So onto this week's mystery animal sound.
The hint is this, This ferocious wild carnivore would eat
(01:02:23):
you if only it didn't fit inside your pocket. All right,
did you hear that little sound?
Speaker 3 (01:02:31):
So that sounded to me like a little kitten meowing.
But but because I know how this show runs and
that it is a labyrinth of lies that is probably
trying to throw me off, so I'm going to say
that is a he said it's a predator that can
(01:02:54):
fit in your pocket. So I'm gonna say that is
a South American microgator, the brand of tiny little four
inch long alligators that live down there.
Speaker 1 (01:03:04):
Oh man, I wish, oh, I would love that. I
would break my own rule of one shouldn't keep exotic
pets if there were microgators that would stay tiny forever.
Speaker 2 (01:03:18):
Ugh, so cute.
Speaker 3 (01:03:20):
They're chubby, they're almost round, and they can barely walk
over the stumpy legs.
Speaker 2 (01:03:25):
Aw so cute. Ah.
Speaker 1 (01:03:28):
But yes, that is a great guess. We will find
out next time on Creature Feature what this little mystery
muling sound is. Uh. If you think you know you
can write to me at Creature Featurepod at gmail dot com.
You can also write to me with questions every so often.
I have a whole episode dedicated to answering your questions,
(01:03:51):
and I also respond to your questions via email. Jason,
thank you so much for joining me. You got anything
to promote Slash? Where can people find you?
Speaker 3 (01:04:03):
A new book is out on October thirty first, twenty
twenty three. If you are listening to this in the future,
it's already out. It is called Zoe Is Too Drunk
for This dystopia part of the Zoe Ash series, available
in every possible format. If you want to follow me
on TikTok, I am Jason K. Pargin p r gi
(01:04:24):
N on TikTok, but I'm also that on Twitter and
threads and blue Sky and Instagram and YouTube and several others.
Speaker 1 (01:04:35):
Thank you guys so much for listening. If you're enjoying
the show and you leave a rating or review, I
am just so grateful because they help and I read
all the reviews and I appreciate all that feedback is
so good. It feeds me, it nourishes me. And thanks
to the Space Classics for their super awesome song Exo Lumina.
(01:04:58):
Reach Your features a production of iHeart Radio. For more
podcasts like the ones you just heard, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or Hey guess what wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. I don't care. I'm not your mother.
See you next Wednesday,
Creature Feature News
Host
Katie Goldin
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