September 25, 2018 • 32 mins
How can we tell if what we see is real or simulated? Does it matter?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Have you ever woken up from a dream, walked around
and then realize you're still dreaming? Yes, And it's made
me wonder like, is reality actually part of a dream?
Like an inception or the matrix? How do we know
if we are living in a dream or even in
someone else's dream, or like a low resolution A bit
video game. Hi, I'm Daniel and I'm Jorge, and this
(00:37):
is Daniel and Jorge explain the universe, ex playing the universe,
the whole entire universe, all of it. Now you might
be wondering, who are these guys who are gonna explain
the universe to you? Yeah? Who are we? Daniel? Who
are we? Anyway? That's a good question. Well, I'm a
particle physicist. I do my research at the Large Hadron
(00:57):
Collider in Geneva, where we smash particles together and trying
to figure out what is the universe made out of
and how does this all work? And mostly enjoy getting
to play with enormous ten billion dollar taxpayer funded toys. Nice,
And I'm a former robotics researcher. And now I'm a cartoonist.
And where do you do most of your work or
is it a fancy government lab. Yes, I do most
(01:20):
of my work in my pajamas in my garage. Um,
usually starting late in the morning. And how does a
roboticist end up becoming a cartoonist? That is a really
great question. And I have to tell you that, Um,
my parents are also very worried about that whole career trajectory.
(01:43):
But now, yeah, they're worried about their investment in your
in your education. There. I think they're just concerned about
my financial well being. But now I used to be uh,
I used to be I have a PhD in robotics.
I used to do research on legged robots and robots
and could run and like jump around. Um. But then
at some point I started drawing comics and I really
(02:04):
like that and it kind of became more popular than
my research, and so I draw something called PhD comics,
which is how we met because I used to be
a huge fan of PhD comics. Yeah, and um, and
I used to be a big fan of of like
the universe and so so until you know, it's almost
all of the universe now, and but the universe is
(02:25):
sort of where we overlap, right. I do research about
the universe, and you try to explain the universe in
your science, communication and all that stuff, and so I
feel like we have a significant overlap there. Yeah. I
just really like talking to people who know a lot
of stuff about something and just kind of learning new things,
you know. I always I always get my mind blown
when I talked to someone who's a researcher on something,
(02:48):
because it's just kind of amazing, like how much we
don't know about stuff. You know, you sort of walk
around feeling like, hey, we got everything figured out. Um.
But I always love finding out what people are still
like wondering about, and I love pretending to know stuff
about stuff and blowing people's minds. So it's a perfect
setup right now. I think that some of these questions
are really interesting and they're really accessible, and my hope
(03:12):
is that people out there will be listening to this
stuff and think, oh, man, I wish I could have
done physics in high school, or some kid who's who's
listening to it out there it gets inspired and thinks about,
um potentially going into physics, because there's a huge number
of really deep, fascinating questions that we still have to answer.
Like the topic of today's podcast Yeah Today on the
program is the universe a simulation the whole universe. I
(03:39):
love the size of these questions we're asking. Is the
whole universe simulation? Yeah? That's uh so, that's a crazy question.
It's basically the question like are we living in the matrix? Well,
first of all, the matrix is ridiculous because at its
basic premise it didn't work at all, you know, like
batteries what I mean, come on, humans consume and or
(04:00):
they don't produce energy. So the whole fundamental underlying assumption
of the matrix boom, toss it out the window. But
the core idea there that did we could be immersed
in a deeply realistic virtual reality that we're not aware of, right,
that we think reality, that what we're experiencing is reality,
when when actually it's something simulated. That's the fascinating way,
(04:22):
Like what we see and what we hear and what
we touch is not like actually real, it's just like
a a computer feeding as these sensations to us. Yeah,
and only I think recently has this possibility even arisen
because we do now have virtual reality, right, you can't
have fairly immersive experiences and people extrapolate from that. It's
(04:44):
getting more real and real the simulated things we can
the things we can simulate. Absolutely. I had a virtual
reality experience a couple of weeks ago. I went to
a go kart place with my son and I went
into a virtual reality go kart racing thing where you
sit in a chair and the chair shakes in your
car bumps into stuff, and um, it's totally immersive. And
(05:04):
you know, every time I was about to crash into
the wall, which was a lot of times, I found
myself like throwing my arms up to protect myself and
ducking and stuff like that, because it really it felt realistic.
It definitely triggered all of my instincts and absolutely, I
mean I would have wet myself ahead and pid just beforehand. Well.
I had a very intense virtual reality experience too recently.
(05:25):
I I am. I read the news and you think,
I hope that because this is crazy. Um, but yeah,
so that's that's the idea, is that that's the question.
Is the universe a simulation, Like is what we see
around is real? Or is it Are we like sitting
(05:46):
in a vat of liquids floating somewhere in some alien
beings um factory, being fed all of these sensations and
sights and sounds just kind of keep us happy. For
some reason, you make it sound so sinister. Why can't
it be like a cozy, warm, cuddly environment where we're
(06:07):
like nestled in a sunny garden somewhere and being fed
this beautiful, wonderful universe of simulations. Right, But you just
have to be like, we're experiments in some you know,
we're subjects in some sinister experiments somewhere. Well, why else
would somebody do that? So let's take a step back.
So this question has been kind of very recently come.
I mean, it's always sort of been around in science fiction,
(06:28):
but it's sort of become serious, lady, right, like Elon
Musk is wondering about it. Right, And so we went
out in the street. We asked people if they thought
they were living in a simulation. So think for a
moment yourself, listener, do you think the universe could be
a simulation? Here's what people on the street had to say.
We're like my trich or somewhere that it could be.
(06:49):
But I doubt it. I doubt it, you know. But
it's because I don't want to tell myself that everything
I do is the universe seems so let's normal. It
doesn't seem like that could be fossible. So most people
thought maybe it was a possibility, but nobody really firmly
believed it. Nobody thought absolutely, I'm convinced. Yeah, most people
(07:11):
seem very skeptical, but a lot of them allowed the possibility. Right, Well,
you never know, but maybe sort of a thing. Yeah,
And I have to mean I fall into like Kemp,
I'm pretty skeptical about this idea. Uh. And I like
one of the answers that they said, which is like,
I don't know if that's possible. Everything seems really realistic. Yeah,
that's a nice argument, and it's just because the universe
(07:32):
around you feel so detailed. I mean you look at
the tiniest little water droplets and the light sparkling off
of it. It seems like an impossible problem to write
a simulation that it's this realistic. It seems impossible, right, Yeah,
But I don't know if that that's really very persuasive argument,
because computers are getting faster and faster, and you just
extrapolate from what we can do now to what we
(07:54):
can do in twenty years. I mean, look at how
video games have improved from like Super Mario two super
realistic racing games. Now it's incredible how much more realistic
they are, from like Pong to like, uh yeah, like
World of Warcraft. There's so realistic now. Absolutely, So I
don't really think the it's impossible argument is very strong
also because you have to imagine if somebody is running
(08:17):
our universe as a simulation, who knows what kind of
computational powers they have, right, um, and and if they
are their universe, the one that our universe is running
as a simulation inside of doesn't have to follow the
same laws as our universe. Right If we're in a
video game inside somebody else's universe, our video game can
have rules that don't exist outside the video game. Right,
(08:38):
So they like F equals m A or general relativity
that could have been something they just made up because
they thought they would be fun or interesting, you know,
like like we like we create video games with crazy
physical rules. You know, Mario can jump half of the screen,
he can jump twenty feet up in the air. Um,
so maybe that's that's why our physical laws are. They're
(09:01):
just kind of like, hey, let's make this fun universe
where efquals are a kind of the idea that's exactly right. Yeah,
that's exactly right. And I think that's partially the origin
of this idea. You know, what is physics doing? Ask
yourself that physics is trying to figure out what are
the rules of this universe? Right, what are the underlying
code that runs this universe? And so now that we
(09:23):
actually have pretty powerful computer programs, people wonder, well, if
you were in a computer program and you were trying
to figure out what the rules of that simulated universe were,
you'd essentially be trying to understand what was the physics
coded into that universe. So in some sense, yeah, you'd
be a physicist exactly. Physicists are trying to reverse engineer
(09:44):
the source code of the universe. Right, regardless of whether
you believe the universe is real or a simulation, it
does seem to follow some rules, right. So it's like
when you first it's amazing that we can even discover those.
So it's kind of like when you first play Super
Mario or something and you're you're just jumping around and
move around trying to figure out how Mari moves. You're
essentially like being a physicist in that world. That's exactly right.
(10:07):
Everybody who plays a video game for the first time
is being I think that's exactly everybody who plays video games.
That's right. That you just gave a whole generation of
listeners a reason to stop doing their physics homework and
turn on their video Thank you. The PC is only
valued inside the video game, that's right. But you know,
(10:29):
I think that there's a natural curiosity there, right. The
reason video games are fun is because you get to
explore a new world and figure out it's rules and
learn to master it. Also, the best science fiction is
the same way. The best science fiction. You're thrown into
a fictional universe and the rules could be different. Usually
they are, and you have to figure them out. You know,
bad science fiction they tell you in boring narration overtones
(10:51):
exactly how things work. But in good science fiction, you
have to puzzle it out for yourself. You have to
deduce what the history is and what the rules are,
and how things work in this fictional universe. Have to
be like an explorer, like an experiment er. Yeah. I
love how we're describing physicists as these like avant gode
explorers as the couch potatoes who play video games. That's
that's basically not that not that different from reality built
(11:15):
couch potatoes. Well, you know, I find it really interesting
that you so you're a serious physicist. I mean, like, um,
you know, you you're like a professor, and you you've
you don't sort of scoff at this idea immediately, you know,
like I feel like it's a crazy idea, but it's
like something physicists uh uh, actually sort of, they say,
(11:35):
are forced to say, yeah, it's possible. Right. Well, I
think part of the job of being a physicist, and
I would take exception with being called too serious. Seriously,
part of the job of being a physicist is being
prepared for making mind blowing discoveries. You know, I think
best kind of physics discoveries are the ones that completely
change your view of the universe. You know that discover
(11:56):
where you discover the universe works really differently from the
way you did, And so you have to be open
to crazy new ideas if you even have a chance
to make a crazy discovery. I guess by serious physicist,
I mean an employed physicist. That's right, I still have
a job that makes me a physicist. On that note,
let's take a quick break I like what you said earlier,
(12:30):
which is that you know our universe right now, the
one where even if it was not a simulation, it's
sort of like a simulation in that that's kind of
what a simulation is. It's like there's laws and then uh,
you figure out what's going to happen in the next
time instant based on those laws. That's I mean, that's
(12:50):
basically what a simulation is, right, right, But is the
universe like a simulation or is a simulation like the universe?
I mean we can think simulations I know, or Ay
says whoa. I mean, we invented simulations in order to
model example universes, right, We said, what would happen if
(13:12):
the universe was like this, Well, let's see, and then
we build a little simulation and we test it out.
So simulations are built to mirror the universe on purpose,
and and we code in the rules of the universe
in that simulation because we think there are rules of
the universe, and we could have a whole other conversation
about like why does the universe have rules? Why do
(13:33):
those rules seem to be fairly constant, and why can
we discover them and express them in terms of mathematics,
like enormous philosophy questions we haven't even scratched the surface of.
And I thought, I really like thinking about, like what
is the computer of the universe except for a moment?
The universe follows some laws, real or simulation. Right, they're
(13:54):
like imprinted in the way things are. Yeah, they're set somewhere, right,
they're fixed somehow. How are those laws enacted? Like when
a particle bounces off of another particle, how is that
calculation done? You know what determines what is going to happen? There?
It takes no time, right, it's instantaneous, no lag or
(14:14):
delay in our universe that says, oh you know, um no,
there's no spinning ball of death when something complicated happens, right,
No matter how complicated it is, the calculation is done instantly.
Like how does that little particle know to follow the rules?
That's right, that's right, It's just it's just done. Yeah,
And like, what what is there to enforce those rules? Right?
(14:35):
If a particle was like, yeah, I'm not gonna follow
the rules. I like how you try to give attitude
to everything like personalities. Yeah, maybe that's why I got
um fired from my robotics too. Um um, yeah, but
like what what what enforces the laws of physics in
our universe? Right? That's right? Well, if you if you
(14:57):
like the simulation model, right, then member that inside the
simulation the rules are followed, but the calculations are done
outside the simulation. Right. If we build a simulated universe, right,
you and me sit down de side when they would
build a little mini universe in which cartoonists and roboticists
or kings or something, and we can set the rules
of that universe, but the calculations for that universe are
(15:20):
not done inside that universe, are done in our universe. Right,
in our computers, like in a simulation or a video game,
you would say, all right, here's a mass of Mario,
and this is the force that's being applied to Mario.
Therefore he should be accelerating. You crunch the numbers and
you say he should be accelerating this much, right, and
then you apply that to the video games. Say we're
in universe zero, right, and we're simulating universe one. And
(15:42):
then as you said, things that happened in universe one
are calculated in universe zero right outside of our universe.
That's the thing I find compelling about this is the
universe of simulation question because it touches on that question,
where are the calculations done for our universe universe zero?
Is there a universe minus one with some giant computer
(16:03):
that's doing these calculations blindingly fast or is it just
magically done? So, like, if if we're in a simulation
and everyone listening to this is an assimulation, what is
computing the calculations in the upper universe, in the outside universe,
that's right? What is that computer? Like it doesn't have
(16:25):
to follow the same rules as our universe, And how
is it possibly doing all these calculations um to describe
our universe? And this is a question that's fair to
ask even if the universe is real, even if it's
not a simulation, you have to wonder how is this done?
How is this um? How is this universe run? You know,
I think that's a really fun way. It doesn't It
doesn't go away. That's the interesting thing. It's like, even
(16:46):
if we are a simulation, then you still have to
answer the question about the aliens is universe, you know,
like what how how does it work for them? Yeah,
that's right, it's an endlessly recursive question. And you can
owe is ask are we in the stimulation or not?
And you know, basic things that we assume, like the
universe has rules. Those rules don't change with time. That
(17:08):
could be different in other simulations or in the you
know this the universe that's running our simulation. That could
be different. It could be in their universe. The laws
of physics change with time, the speed of light is
variable with time, all sorts of other stuff. So they
were like, hey, let's have some fun. Let's create a
video game where the rules don't change. Yeah, for example,
(17:29):
I mean, that's just one hypothetical, not one that I believe,
but just it's a possibility. Um. And and that that
touches on other really fascinating stuff like say you have
some calculation you want to do. It's really complicated. It
would take one of our computers a billion years, right,
If you can arrange our universe in such a way
(17:50):
so that it does that calculation for you, Well, our
universe appears to be able to do these calculations instantly, right,
So so you might be thinking, well, that's absurd. Well
let me give you a concrete example. So you have
a ball that has like ten to the ten atoms
in it, and you want to understand how it drops right,
how it falls right, Well, you could either do that calculation,
(18:10):
which would take you a billion years, or you could
actually just drop a ball right. So in that sense,
we can use our universe as a computer if what
you wanted to know was something that was going to
happen naturally in our universe exactly. And that is what
experimental physics is, is arranging physical systems to do instantaneous
(18:32):
calculations of things we otherwise couldn't figure out. Right. For example,
I kind of said it in a derisive way I can.
I said it is like, that's a silly idea, but
you're saying it's the basis of your entire research field.
That's right, That's what it experimental physics. That's why we
do experimental physics because the universe is faster calculating this
stuff than we are. Sometimes in particle physics, we don't
(18:55):
know how to do a calculation. We're like, well, what
happens when this and this hits that? Well, we can't
calcul it. Well, let's just go measure it, because the
universe can do the calculation without us. If you had
as a miraculous computer. You wouldn't need to do experiments
because you could just simulate every possibility in this magical
computer and you would know the answer that's right, And
(19:15):
the universe is that computer. Oh that's that's wild. Yeah,
but you know it's it's not infinitely configurable. Like on
your simulation that you write on your laptop, you can
control everything, you can do everything you want. In the
case of the universe, we can't necessarily do any arbitrary
calculation because you can't arrange the universe to do it
for you. Like if you want to just know what's
(19:37):
going to weather going to be like tomorrow in Australia,
that's a really hard calculation. How would we set that up. Well,
we'd have an earth, right, and we'd run it forward
for a day, But you wouldn't have the answer in advance, right,
you'd have the answer tomorrow when it's tomorrow in Australia.
So it's not it's not I'm not saying that the
universe is a perfect infinite computer that we can use
to answer any question. I'm saying that's kind of the model. Yeah, exactly.
(20:01):
On that note, let's take a quick break. Well, I
find it really fascinating that physicists have come up with
ways to maybe check to see if we are in
(20:22):
a simulated universe. Right, Like, there's actually there might be
experiments we can do to test whether we are neo
in the matrix or not exactly. And that's step two,
right for Step one is have crazy idea. Step two
is how could we test this idea? Step two get
money for the crazy idea, apply for grant fundings. Are
(20:43):
crazy idea? Um, it's pretty hard because you have to
make some assumptions about how that simulation is done right,
and those assumptions are just guesses really, But that's fine.
Like a lot of times in science, we don't know
how to approach a problem, so we just make a
bunch of guesses so that we can at least try
to answer the question. And then maybe later we re
(21:05):
evaluate those guesses and try to widen the scope or whatever,
but just so we can get somewhere. Right, Well, what
are some of these ways that physicists think that maybe
we could figure out if we're in a simulation. Well,
one way is to look for things that move super
duper fast. And the reason is that if we were
to simulate a universe. The way we would do it
is to slice space up into huge cubes and simulate
(21:27):
each cube. Because you can't simulate the whole universe at once.
You'd want like a bank of computers. You would only
simulate the parts that are sort of relevant to the
video game players, that's right. And also you would want
to have a bunch of computers working in parallel. You
wouldn't want a single computer operating on the whole universe.
You just want to slice it up and say this
cube light year cube of space is handled by this computer,
(21:49):
and this light year cube handle them by that computer,
and when things cross the boundaries, they have to talk
to each other. But that's the way we simulate. For example,
you know an ice cube forming you have you have
a bunch of calculations of these water molecules, but you
do them in little cubes um and then you interface them.
And so people think, what happens when something is going
super fast through the universe. It could cross a bunch
(22:10):
of these cubes really quickly, and that would be difficult
for this simulation to do correctly, and so we'd have
to look for little glitches like that, like you would
have to look for cases that are really kind of
pushing the limits of the computer that's simulating us potentially
to see if there are any like like if if
the simulation breaks them out exactly and that's you put
(22:33):
it exactly right. But we have to assume we know
something about what's hard for those kind of universe simulators, right,
which is like so presumptuous to even know. But if
what's hard for the universe simulators is the same thing
as what's hard for us when we simulate a little
mini universes, then one thing that's hard is things across
that go really fast. And so there are things out
(22:54):
there in space that's that zoom around super quickly and
that can potentially give us clues. So we have to
assume that a it's hard to simulate the entire universe
at the same time, so we have to break it
up and be we have to assume that, um, things
going really really really fast across these different chunks of
the universe. Um, that's a hard problem, that's right. And
(23:16):
so one thing we look at our super fast cosmic
rays cosmic grains are just particles in space zooming around,
and it's a whole other interesting mystery about why those
particles are there and why they're going so fast. But
they're going incredibly fast, like ridiculously fast, much faster than
particles we make here on Earth, even at our fancy
ten billion dollar accelerators, and those are going so fast
(23:39):
that they might reveal these glitches. So if we look
to see if those particles are coming at the same
rate in every direction and this kind of stuff, we
might be able to get hints that there might be
little glitches in the simulation. Cool. So are there any
other ideas for testing this? I don't think there are
any ideas that have much widespread support. I mean, we're
already talking about crazy theories here, but I mean an
(23:59):
idea I have is communicate with the simulators, right, Like,
let's send the message, you know, like like I know,
like I know what's going on. We figured it out, right, Like,
say you are running a simulation of a universe, right,
and you don't tell the beings inside that universe that
it's a simulation because that would spoil your experiments somehow, right, Right, Well,
(24:21):
if they discover it, then you kind of want to
know and maybe you be interested in talking to them, right,
So I think let's try to send a message, you know,
let's write something on it. It's the equivalent running s
OS on the beach or or something. But they would
because they're overseeing our our universe, so they would know
that we're actually bluffing. We say, ha ha, we found out,
and they'd be like, no, you didn't. They haven't talked
(24:44):
to us so far. Why would they start out we
started bluffing. Mmm. That's a good point. But you're assuming
we are bluffing, right, What if we sincerely, honestly believe
the universe is a simulation. You're right, we don't have
any evidence for it, so we can't so we can't
scientifically sincerely believe that. Well, I think the biggest sign
that we're in a simulation is the fact that Kenna
(25:05):
Reeves has an age to day. Surely that's that is
a glitch in the matrix right there, the matrix. Yeah, well, um,
what would it be like to be in a simulation? Like?
What implications with that? It might be just like this,
It might not be any different. Yeah, I mean, if
(25:26):
we are in a simulation, then we already know the answer.
What's it like to be in a simulation? But you
probably meant something else you probably meant like you mean, oh,
I see, Like are we simulated minds? Like maybe we're
not um humans in a vat in a warehouse, in
an alien warehouse. Maybe we're like actually like pieces of coding.
(25:48):
We're like artificial intelligences. Oh my god. Like maybe we're
like the fodder in a video game. We're like the
mushrooms in Super Mario. You know we're here form right,
sort of two levels there, right, Like one level is
you are a brain, and your brain exists in the
(26:09):
real universe, but you're being fed information about a fake universe, right,
But your brain exists in the real universe. That's sort
of level one. Level two is you don't exist in
the real universe at all except in that simulation, right,
a piece of code that describes a virtual person. Right,
you could just exist in that simulation until the question
is like basically that are we real, are we conscious?
(26:32):
Are we actually something? Or are we like completely fake
or right? Which is right now an open question in philosophy,
Like say, for example, I could perfectly simulate Jorge's brain
and Horee's body, right, and I had that inside a computer,
and it's a completely faithful reproduction right, and just like you,
it's spent most of its day in pajamas and taking
naps in the afternoon. Right, Totally accurate. The question is
(26:56):
would that, Jorge feel anything? Would it be a where
would it be self conscious? Right? Because really we're sort
of computer ourselves, right, Like if we are real, we're
just a bunch of like neurons, which are really just
like little computers. We're just a massive computers in our brain.
So maybe maybe there's no difference. Maybe there's no difference,
(27:17):
right exactly. Maybe the thing that makes us us is
just the arrangement of these bits, right, just the information
stored in the physical computer that is me, of the
physical computer that is you. That's a little hard to grasp.
It's a little hard to feel comfortable with thinking I
am just this representation, right, because that means that you
could translate me into a totally different representation. Right, bits
(27:40):
inside a computer which are also a physical system, or
a computer is a physical system with switches and and
bits and stuff, and that that could be somehow equivalent
to me. The problem is, I don't think we could
ever know. And what I mean by that is, say
I have a computer simulation which is a perfect reproduction
of Jorge, Right, I mean not that I'm not perfect already.
But um, I'm not saying I wouldn't make a few tweaks.
(28:05):
You want to make a few tweaks? Oh um, But
say we had the simulated version before hey, and we
asked it, are you real? Well, if I ask you
if you're real, you'll say yes. So if the stimulation
is a perfect reproduction of you, it will also say
it's real. How do we distinguish between something that says
it's real, seems real, and but isn't actually aware? Wow,
(28:27):
we can't. That's a that's a topic known as a
philosophical zombie in philosophy circles. Yeah, well, the whole reason
we're talking about this is basically, um is that the
computers are getting so advanced now that it's actually kind
of a possibility A and B. Physicists can't categorically say no,
(28:48):
that's impossible, and so that's why we're talking about it.
That's right, And there are even some people that make
the argument that it's likely, okay likely. Some people even
say that's not just like a crazy idea, that's not impossible.
It's like there's there's strong evidence for it. Not strong evidence.
But here here's the argument. You can judge for yourself
how strong it is. The idea goes like this, say
(29:10):
this one real universe, and inside that real universe, somebody
invents a simulated universe. Inside that simulated universe, somebody invents
a simulated universe. So now imagine a whole set of
nested universes, right, each of which is very realistic and
high fidelity, and his beings in it to feel alive
and love and hate and and all this kind of stuff. Um,
(29:30):
then if there are this whole nested set of universes
and only one is real, then what is the probability
that ours is that real one? So they argue that,
therefore the probability that our universe is real is small. Right,
It turns the question on its head, is you see
universe is simulation two? Is the universe real? And it
suggests that that's unlikely? Oh, meaning that it is it
(29:53):
is possible to simulate a universe. Therefore, in the infinity
of a time him in space. Um, what's the likelihood
that we are real? Not a stimulation? Um, It's it's
like non zero, yeah, exactly. It's like if you're in
an infinite crowd and only one person is real and
(30:14):
everybody else is fake. What are the chances that you're
the real one? Pretty small? Um. I think that's not
a very strong argument because it makes a lot of assumptions.
You know, it assumes that universes will always simulate another universe,
and those universes would be high fidelity, and that all
of them would be like ours, um and that kind
of stuff. But you know, it does have that cosmic context.
(30:36):
I like the sender, the fact that it reminds us
that we don't really know where we are and what
the context is, and that is important. As we think
we are sometimes it could just be that we are
Super Mario brothers bouncing around inside a video game. That's
that's I think a useful reminder. I've always identified more
with LEGI, to be honest, because he's the taller one.
(30:57):
He's I think he's a yeah, he's just kind of
the alert, the clearer brother. He doesn't care about getting
all the spotlight right. He's he's over that, he's above it. Well,
whether we are in a simulation or not. Um, it's
really fun to kind of question the nature of the universe. Right, absolutely,
And it's only in asking these crazy questions that we're
(31:18):
going to make crazy discoveries. Right, the universe might not
be a simulation, but in thinking about ways to test it,
we might discover other weird stuff that that gives us
another crazy idea, and that one might actually be true.
So this is we're all physicists in the sense that
we'd like to all think about big questions about the universe.
It's like in trying to break the video game, that's
when you discover the hitting easter eggs. That's right, the
(31:40):
easter eggs of the universe. That's where we're all hoping for. Cool. Well,
I hope you guys are keeping it real out there,
and I enjoyed this discussion. I hope you're keeping it simulated.
And have a great day until next time.
Have you ever woken up from a dream, walked around
and then realize you're still dreaming? Yes, And it's made
me wonder like, is reality actually part of a dream?
Like an inception or the matrix? How do we know
if we are living in a dream or even in
someone else's dream, or like a low resolution A bit
video game. Hi, I'm Daniel and I'm Jorge, and this
(00:37):
is Daniel and Jorge explain the universe, ex playing the universe,
the whole entire universe, all of it. Now you might
be wondering, who are these guys who are gonna explain
the universe to you? Yeah? Who are we? Daniel? Who
are we? Anyway? That's a good question. Well, I'm a
particle physicist. I do my research at the Large Hadron
(00:57):
Collider in Geneva, where we smash particles together and trying
to figure out what is the universe made out of
and how does this all work? And mostly enjoy getting
to play with enormous ten billion dollar taxpayer funded toys. Nice,
And I'm a former robotics researcher. And now I'm a cartoonist.
And where do you do most of your work or
is it a fancy government lab. Yes, I do most
(01:20):
of my work in my pajamas in my garage. Um,
usually starting late in the morning. And how does a
roboticist end up becoming a cartoonist? That is a really
great question. And I have to tell you that, Um,
my parents are also very worried about that whole career trajectory.
(01:43):
But now, yeah, they're worried about their investment in your
in your education. There. I think they're just concerned about
my financial well being. But now I used to be uh,
I used to be I have a PhD in robotics.
I used to do research on legged robots and robots
and could run and like jump around. Um. But then
at some point I started drawing comics and I really
(02:04):
like that and it kind of became more popular than
my research, and so I draw something called PhD comics,
which is how we met because I used to be
a huge fan of PhD comics. Yeah, and um, and
I used to be a big fan of of like
the universe and so so until you know, it's almost
all of the universe now, and but the universe is
(02:25):
sort of where we overlap, right. I do research about
the universe, and you try to explain the universe in
your science, communication and all that stuff, and so I
feel like we have a significant overlap there. Yeah. I
just really like talking to people who know a lot
of stuff about something and just kind of learning new things,
you know. I always I always get my mind blown
when I talked to someone who's a researcher on something,
(02:48):
because it's just kind of amazing, like how much we
don't know about stuff. You know, you sort of walk
around feeling like, hey, we got everything figured out. Um.
But I always love finding out what people are still
like wondering about, and I love pretending to know stuff
about stuff and blowing people's minds. So it's a perfect
setup right now. I think that some of these questions
are really interesting and they're really accessible, and my hope
(03:12):
is that people out there will be listening to this
stuff and think, oh, man, I wish I could have
done physics in high school, or some kid who's who's
listening to it out there it gets inspired and thinks about,
um potentially going into physics, because there's a huge number
of really deep, fascinating questions that we still have to answer.
Like the topic of today's podcast Yeah Today on the
program is the universe a simulation the whole universe. I
(03:39):
love the size of these questions we're asking. Is the
whole universe simulation? Yeah? That's uh so, that's a crazy question.
It's basically the question like are we living in the matrix? Well,
first of all, the matrix is ridiculous because at its
basic premise it didn't work at all, you know, like
batteries what I mean, come on, humans consume and or
(04:00):
they don't produce energy. So the whole fundamental underlying assumption
of the matrix boom, toss it out the window. But
the core idea there that did we could be immersed
in a deeply realistic virtual reality that we're not aware of, right,
that we think reality, that what we're experiencing is reality,
when when actually it's something simulated. That's the fascinating way,
(04:22):
Like what we see and what we hear and what
we touch is not like actually real, it's just like
a a computer feeding as these sensations to us. Yeah,
and only I think recently has this possibility even arisen
because we do now have virtual reality, right, you can't
have fairly immersive experiences and people extrapolate from that. It's
(04:44):
getting more real and real the simulated things we can
the things we can simulate. Absolutely. I had a virtual
reality experience a couple of weeks ago. I went to
a go kart place with my son and I went
into a virtual reality go kart racing thing where you
sit in a chair and the chair shakes in your
car bumps into stuff, and um, it's totally immersive. And
(05:04):
you know, every time I was about to crash into
the wall, which was a lot of times, I found
myself like throwing my arms up to protect myself and
ducking and stuff like that, because it really it felt realistic.
It definitely triggered all of my instincts and absolutely, I
mean I would have wet myself ahead and pid just beforehand. Well.
I had a very intense virtual reality experience too recently.
(05:25):
I I am. I read the news and you think,
I hope that because this is crazy. Um, but yeah,
so that's that's the idea, is that that's the question.
Is the universe a simulation, Like is what we see
around is real? Or is it Are we like sitting
(05:46):
in a vat of liquids floating somewhere in some alien
beings um factory, being fed all of these sensations and
sights and sounds just kind of keep us happy. For
some reason, you make it sound so sinister. Why can't
it be like a cozy, warm, cuddly environment where we're
(06:07):
like nestled in a sunny garden somewhere and being fed
this beautiful, wonderful universe of simulations. Right, But you just
have to be like, we're experiments in some you know,
we're subjects in some sinister experiments somewhere. Well, why else
would somebody do that? So let's take a step back.
So this question has been kind of very recently come.
I mean, it's always sort of been around in science fiction,
(06:28):
but it's sort of become serious, lady, right, like Elon
Musk is wondering about it. Right, And so we went
out in the street. We asked people if they thought
they were living in a simulation. So think for a
moment yourself, listener, do you think the universe could be
a simulation? Here's what people on the street had to say.
We're like my trich or somewhere that it could be.
(06:49):
But I doubt it. I doubt it, you know. But
it's because I don't want to tell myself that everything
I do is the universe seems so let's normal. It
doesn't seem like that could be fossible. So most people
thought maybe it was a possibility, but nobody really firmly
believed it. Nobody thought absolutely, I'm convinced. Yeah, most people
(07:11):
seem very skeptical, but a lot of them allowed the possibility. Right, Well,
you never know, but maybe sort of a thing. Yeah,
And I have to mean I fall into like Kemp,
I'm pretty skeptical about this idea. Uh. And I like
one of the answers that they said, which is like,
I don't know if that's possible. Everything seems really realistic. Yeah,
that's a nice argument, and it's just because the universe
(07:32):
around you feel so detailed. I mean you look at
the tiniest little water droplets and the light sparkling off
of it. It seems like an impossible problem to write
a simulation that it's this realistic. It seems impossible, right, Yeah,
But I don't know if that that's really very persuasive argument,
because computers are getting faster and faster, and you just
extrapolate from what we can do now to what we
(07:54):
can do in twenty years. I mean, look at how
video games have improved from like Super Mario two super
realistic racing games. Now it's incredible how much more realistic
they are, from like Pong to like, uh yeah, like
World of Warcraft. There's so realistic now. Absolutely, So I
don't really think the it's impossible argument is very strong
also because you have to imagine if somebody is running
(08:17):
our universe as a simulation, who knows what kind of
computational powers they have, right, um, and and if they
are their universe, the one that our universe is running
as a simulation inside of doesn't have to follow the
same laws as our universe. Right If we're in a
video game inside somebody else's universe, our video game can
have rules that don't exist outside the video game. Right,
(08:38):
So they like F equals m A or general relativity
that could have been something they just made up because
they thought they would be fun or interesting, you know,
like like we like we create video games with crazy
physical rules. You know, Mario can jump half of the screen,
he can jump twenty feet up in the air. Um,
so maybe that's that's why our physical laws are. They're
(09:01):
just kind of like, hey, let's make this fun universe
where efquals are a kind of the idea that's exactly right. Yeah,
that's exactly right. And I think that's partially the origin
of this idea. You know, what is physics doing? Ask
yourself that physics is trying to figure out what are
the rules of this universe? Right, what are the underlying
code that runs this universe? And so now that we
(09:23):
actually have pretty powerful computer programs, people wonder, well, if
you were in a computer program and you were trying
to figure out what the rules of that simulated universe were,
you'd essentially be trying to understand what was the physics
coded into that universe. So in some sense, yeah, you'd
be a physicist exactly. Physicists are trying to reverse engineer
(09:44):
the source code of the universe. Right, regardless of whether
you believe the universe is real or a simulation, it
does seem to follow some rules, right. So it's like
when you first it's amazing that we can even discover those.
So it's kind of like when you first play Super
Mario or something and you're you're just jumping around and
move around trying to figure out how Mari moves. You're
essentially like being a physicist in that world. That's exactly right.
(10:07):
Everybody who plays a video game for the first time
is being I think that's exactly everybody who plays video games.
That's right. That you just gave a whole generation of
listeners a reason to stop doing their physics homework and
turn on their video Thank you. The PC is only
valued inside the video game, that's right. But you know,
(10:29):
I think that there's a natural curiosity there, right. The
reason video games are fun is because you get to
explore a new world and figure out it's rules and
learn to master it. Also, the best science fiction is
the same way. The best science fiction. You're thrown into
a fictional universe and the rules could be different. Usually
they are, and you have to figure them out. You know,
bad science fiction they tell you in boring narration overtones
(10:51):
exactly how things work. But in good science fiction, you
have to puzzle it out for yourself. You have to
deduce what the history is and what the rules are,
and how things work in this fictional universe. Have to
be like an explorer, like an experiment er. Yeah. I
love how we're describing physicists as these like avant gode
explorers as the couch potatoes who play video games. That's
that's basically not that not that different from reality built
(11:15):
couch potatoes. Well, you know, I find it really interesting
that you so you're a serious physicist. I mean, like, um,
you know, you you're like a professor, and you you've
you don't sort of scoff at this idea immediately, you know,
like I feel like it's a crazy idea, but it's
like something physicists uh uh, actually sort of, they say,
(11:35):
are forced to say, yeah, it's possible. Right. Well, I
think part of the job of being a physicist, and
I would take exception with being called too serious. Seriously,
part of the job of being a physicist is being
prepared for making mind blowing discoveries. You know, I think
best kind of physics discoveries are the ones that completely
change your view of the universe. You know that discover
(11:56):
where you discover the universe works really differently from the
way you did, And so you have to be open
to crazy new ideas if you even have a chance
to make a crazy discovery. I guess by serious physicist,
I mean an employed physicist. That's right, I still have
a job that makes me a physicist. On that note,
let's take a quick break I like what you said earlier,
(12:30):
which is that you know our universe right now, the
one where even if it was not a simulation, it's
sort of like a simulation in that that's kind of
what a simulation is. It's like there's laws and then uh,
you figure out what's going to happen in the next
time instant based on those laws. That's I mean, that's
(12:50):
basically what a simulation is, right, right, But is the
universe like a simulation or is a simulation like the universe?
I mean we can think simulations I know, or Ay
says whoa. I mean, we invented simulations in order to
model example universes, right, We said, what would happen if
(13:12):
the universe was like this, Well, let's see, and then
we build a little simulation and we test it out.
So simulations are built to mirror the universe on purpose,
and and we code in the rules of the universe
in that simulation because we think there are rules of
the universe, and we could have a whole other conversation
about like why does the universe have rules? Why do
(13:33):
those rules seem to be fairly constant, and why can
we discover them and express them in terms of mathematics,
like enormous philosophy questions we haven't even scratched the surface of.
And I thought, I really like thinking about, like what
is the computer of the universe except for a moment?
The universe follows some laws, real or simulation. Right, they're
(13:54):
like imprinted in the way things are. Yeah, they're set somewhere, right,
they're fixed somehow. How are those laws enacted? Like when
a particle bounces off of another particle, how is that
calculation done? You know what determines what is going to happen? There?
It takes no time, right, it's instantaneous, no lag or
(14:14):
delay in our universe that says, oh you know, um no,
there's no spinning ball of death when something complicated happens, right,
No matter how complicated it is, the calculation is done instantly.
Like how does that little particle know to follow the rules?
That's right, that's right, It's just it's just done. Yeah,
And like, what what is there to enforce those rules? Right?
(14:35):
If a particle was like, yeah, I'm not gonna follow
the rules. I like how you try to give attitude
to everything like personalities. Yeah, maybe that's why I got
um fired from my robotics too. Um um, yeah, but
like what what what enforces the laws of physics in
our universe? Right? That's right? Well, if you if you
(14:57):
like the simulation model, right, then member that inside the
simulation the rules are followed, but the calculations are done
outside the simulation. Right. If we build a simulated universe, right,
you and me sit down de side when they would
build a little mini universe in which cartoonists and roboticists
or kings or something, and we can set the rules
of that universe, but the calculations for that universe are
(15:20):
not done inside that universe, are done in our universe. Right,
in our computers, like in a simulation or a video game,
you would say, all right, here's a mass of Mario,
and this is the force that's being applied to Mario.
Therefore he should be accelerating. You crunch the numbers and
you say he should be accelerating this much, right, and
then you apply that to the video games. Say we're
in universe zero, right, and we're simulating universe one. And
(15:42):
then as you said, things that happened in universe one
are calculated in universe zero right outside of our universe.
That's the thing I find compelling about this is the
universe of simulation question because it touches on that question,
where are the calculations done for our universe universe zero?
Is there a universe minus one with some giant computer
(16:03):
that's doing these calculations blindingly fast or is it just
magically done? So, like, if if we're in a simulation
and everyone listening to this is an assimulation, what is
computing the calculations in the upper universe, in the outside universe,
that's right? What is that computer? Like it doesn't have
(16:25):
to follow the same rules as our universe, And how
is it possibly doing all these calculations um to describe
our universe? And this is a question that's fair to
ask even if the universe is real, even if it's
not a simulation, you have to wonder how is this done?
How is this um? How is this universe run? You know,
I think that's a really fun way. It doesn't It
doesn't go away. That's the interesting thing. It's like, even
(16:46):
if we are a simulation, then you still have to
answer the question about the aliens is universe, you know,
like what how how does it work for them? Yeah,
that's right, it's an endlessly recursive question. And you can
owe is ask are we in the stimulation or not?
And you know, basic things that we assume, like the
universe has rules. Those rules don't change with time. That
(17:08):
could be different in other simulations or in the you
know this the universe that's running our simulation. That could
be different. It could be in their universe. The laws
of physics change with time, the speed of light is
variable with time, all sorts of other stuff. So they
were like, hey, let's have some fun. Let's create a
video game where the rules don't change. Yeah, for example,
(17:29):
I mean, that's just one hypothetical, not one that I believe,
but just it's a possibility. Um. And and that that
touches on other really fascinating stuff like say you have
some calculation you want to do. It's really complicated. It
would take one of our computers a billion years, right,
If you can arrange our universe in such a way
(17:50):
so that it does that calculation for you, Well, our
universe appears to be able to do these calculations instantly, right,
So so you might be thinking, well, that's absurd. Well
let me give you a concrete example. So you have
a ball that has like ten to the ten atoms
in it, and you want to understand how it drops right,
how it falls right, Well, you could either do that calculation,
(18:10):
which would take you a billion years, or you could
actually just drop a ball right. So in that sense,
we can use our universe as a computer if what
you wanted to know was something that was going to
happen naturally in our universe exactly. And that is what
experimental physics is, is arranging physical systems to do instantaneous
(18:32):
calculations of things we otherwise couldn't figure out. Right. For example,
I kind of said it in a derisive way I can.
I said it is like, that's a silly idea, but
you're saying it's the basis of your entire research field.
That's right, That's what it experimental physics. That's why we
do experimental physics because the universe is faster calculating this
stuff than we are. Sometimes in particle physics, we don't
(18:55):
know how to do a calculation. We're like, well, what
happens when this and this hits that? Well, we can't
calcul it. Well, let's just go measure it, because the
universe can do the calculation without us. If you had
as a miraculous computer. You wouldn't need to do experiments
because you could just simulate every possibility in this magical
computer and you would know the answer that's right, And
(19:15):
the universe is that computer. Oh that's that's wild. Yeah,
but you know it's it's not infinitely configurable. Like on
your simulation that you write on your laptop, you can
control everything, you can do everything you want. In the
case of the universe, we can't necessarily do any arbitrary
calculation because you can't arrange the universe to do it
for you. Like if you want to just know what's
(19:37):
going to weather going to be like tomorrow in Australia,
that's a really hard calculation. How would we set that up. Well,
we'd have an earth, right, and we'd run it forward
for a day, But you wouldn't have the answer in advance, right,
you'd have the answer tomorrow when it's tomorrow in Australia.
So it's not it's not I'm not saying that the
universe is a perfect infinite computer that we can use
to answer any question. I'm saying that's kind of the model. Yeah, exactly.
(20:01):
On that note, let's take a quick break. Well, I
find it really fascinating that physicists have come up with
ways to maybe check to see if we are in
(20:22):
a simulated universe. Right, Like, there's actually there might be
experiments we can do to test whether we are neo
in the matrix or not exactly. And that's step two,
right for Step one is have crazy idea. Step two
is how could we test this idea? Step two get
money for the crazy idea, apply for grant fundings. Are
(20:43):
crazy idea? Um, it's pretty hard because you have to
make some assumptions about how that simulation is done right,
and those assumptions are just guesses really, But that's fine.
Like a lot of times in science, we don't know
how to approach a problem, so we just make a
bunch of guesses so that we can at least try
to answer the question. And then maybe later we re
(21:05):
evaluate those guesses and try to widen the scope or whatever,
but just so we can get somewhere. Right, Well, what
are some of these ways that physicists think that maybe
we could figure out if we're in a simulation. Well,
one way is to look for things that move super
duper fast. And the reason is that if we were
to simulate a universe. The way we would do it
is to slice space up into huge cubes and simulate
(21:27):
each cube. Because you can't simulate the whole universe at once.
You'd want like a bank of computers. You would only
simulate the parts that are sort of relevant to the
video game players, that's right. And also you would want
to have a bunch of computers working in parallel. You
wouldn't want a single computer operating on the whole universe.
You just want to slice it up and say this
cube light year cube of space is handled by this computer,
(21:49):
and this light year cube handle them by that computer,
and when things cross the boundaries, they have to talk
to each other. But that's the way we simulate. For example,
you know an ice cube forming you have you have
a bunch of calculations of these water molecules, but you
do them in little cubes um and then you interface them.
And so people think, what happens when something is going
super fast through the universe. It could cross a bunch
(22:10):
of these cubes really quickly, and that would be difficult
for this simulation to do correctly, and so we'd have
to look for little glitches like that, like you would
have to look for cases that are really kind of
pushing the limits of the computer that's simulating us potentially
to see if there are any like like if if
the simulation breaks them out exactly and that's you put
(22:33):
it exactly right. But we have to assume we know
something about what's hard for those kind of universe simulators, right,
which is like so presumptuous to even know. But if
what's hard for the universe simulators is the same thing
as what's hard for us when we simulate a little
mini universes, then one thing that's hard is things across
that go really fast. And so there are things out
(22:54):
there in space that's that zoom around super quickly and
that can potentially give us clues. So we have to
assume that a it's hard to simulate the entire universe
at the same time, so we have to break it
up and be we have to assume that, um, things
going really really really fast across these different chunks of
the universe. Um, that's a hard problem, that's right. And
(23:16):
so one thing we look at our super fast cosmic
rays cosmic grains are just particles in space zooming around,
and it's a whole other interesting mystery about why those
particles are there and why they're going so fast. But
they're going incredibly fast, like ridiculously fast, much faster than
particles we make here on Earth, even at our fancy
ten billion dollar accelerators, and those are going so fast
(23:39):
that they might reveal these glitches. So if we look
to see if those particles are coming at the same
rate in every direction and this kind of stuff, we
might be able to get hints that there might be
little glitches in the simulation. Cool. So are there any
other ideas for testing this? I don't think there are
any ideas that have much widespread support. I mean, we're
already talking about crazy theories here, but I mean an
(23:59):
idea I have is communicate with the simulators, right, Like,
let's send the message, you know, like like I know,
like I know what's going on. We figured it out, right, Like,
say you are running a simulation of a universe, right,
and you don't tell the beings inside that universe that
it's a simulation because that would spoil your experiments somehow, right, Right, Well,
(24:21):
if they discover it, then you kind of want to
know and maybe you be interested in talking to them, right,
So I think let's try to send a message, you know,
let's write something on it. It's the equivalent running s
OS on the beach or or something. But they would
because they're overseeing our our universe, so they would know
that we're actually bluffing. We say, ha ha, we found out,
and they'd be like, no, you didn't. They haven't talked
(24:44):
to us so far. Why would they start out we
started bluffing. Mmm. That's a good point. But you're assuming
we are bluffing, right, What if we sincerely, honestly believe
the universe is a simulation. You're right, we don't have
any evidence for it, so we can't so we can't
scientifically sincerely believe that. Well, I think the biggest sign
that we're in a simulation is the fact that Kenna
(25:05):
Reeves has an age to day. Surely that's that is
a glitch in the matrix right there, the matrix. Yeah, well, um,
what would it be like to be in a simulation? Like?
What implications with that? It might be just like this,
It might not be any different. Yeah, I mean, if
(25:26):
we are in a simulation, then we already know the answer.
What's it like to be in a simulation? But you
probably meant something else you probably meant like you mean, oh,
I see, Like are we simulated minds? Like maybe we're
not um humans in a vat in a warehouse, in
an alien warehouse. Maybe we're like actually like pieces of coding.
(25:48):
We're like artificial intelligences. Oh my god. Like maybe we're
like the fodder in a video game. We're like the
mushrooms in Super Mario. You know we're here form right,
sort of two levels there, right, Like one level is
you are a brain, and your brain exists in the
(26:09):
real universe, but you're being fed information about a fake universe, right,
But your brain exists in the real universe. That's sort
of level one. Level two is you don't exist in
the real universe at all except in that simulation, right,
a piece of code that describes a virtual person. Right,
you could just exist in that simulation until the question
is like basically that are we real, are we conscious?
(26:32):
Are we actually something? Or are we like completely fake
or right? Which is right now an open question in philosophy,
Like say, for example, I could perfectly simulate Jorge's brain
and Horee's body, right, and I had that inside a computer,
and it's a completely faithful reproduction right, and just like you,
it's spent most of its day in pajamas and taking
naps in the afternoon. Right, Totally accurate. The question is
(26:56):
would that, Jorge feel anything? Would it be a where
would it be self conscious? Right? Because really we're sort
of computer ourselves, right, Like if we are real, we're
just a bunch of like neurons, which are really just
like little computers. We're just a massive computers in our brain.
So maybe maybe there's no difference. Maybe there's no difference,
(27:17):
right exactly. Maybe the thing that makes us us is
just the arrangement of these bits, right, just the information
stored in the physical computer that is me, of the
physical computer that is you. That's a little hard to grasp.
It's a little hard to feel comfortable with thinking I
am just this representation, right, because that means that you
could translate me into a totally different representation. Right, bits
(27:40):
inside a computer which are also a physical system, or
a computer is a physical system with switches and and
bits and stuff, and that that could be somehow equivalent
to me. The problem is, I don't think we could
ever know. And what I mean by that is, say
I have a computer simulation which is a perfect reproduction
of Jorge, Right, I mean not that I'm not perfect already.
But um, I'm not saying I wouldn't make a few tweaks.
(28:05):
You want to make a few tweaks? Oh um, But
say we had the simulated version before hey, and we
asked it, are you real? Well, if I ask you
if you're real, you'll say yes. So if the stimulation
is a perfect reproduction of you, it will also say
it's real. How do we distinguish between something that says
it's real, seems real, and but isn't actually aware? Wow,
(28:27):
we can't. That's a that's a topic known as a
philosophical zombie in philosophy circles. Yeah, well, the whole reason
we're talking about this is basically, um is that the
computers are getting so advanced now that it's actually kind
of a possibility A and B. Physicists can't categorically say no,
(28:48):
that's impossible, and so that's why we're talking about it.
That's right, And there are even some people that make
the argument that it's likely, okay likely. Some people even
say that's not just like a crazy idea, that's not impossible.
It's like there's there's strong evidence for it. Not strong evidence.
But here here's the argument. You can judge for yourself
how strong it is. The idea goes like this, say
(29:10):
this one real universe, and inside that real universe, somebody
invents a simulated universe. Inside that simulated universe, somebody invents
a simulated universe. So now imagine a whole set of
nested universes, right, each of which is very realistic and
high fidelity, and his beings in it to feel alive
and love and hate and and all this kind of stuff. Um,
(29:30):
then if there are this whole nested set of universes
and only one is real, then what is the probability
that ours is that real one? So they argue that,
therefore the probability that our universe is real is small. Right,
It turns the question on its head, is you see
universe is simulation two? Is the universe real? And it
suggests that that's unlikely? Oh, meaning that it is it
(29:53):
is possible to simulate a universe. Therefore, in the infinity
of a time him in space. Um, what's the likelihood
that we are real? Not a stimulation? Um, It's it's
like non zero, yeah, exactly. It's like if you're in
an infinite crowd and only one person is real and
(30:14):
everybody else is fake. What are the chances that you're
the real one? Pretty small? Um. I think that's not
a very strong argument because it makes a lot of assumptions.
You know, it assumes that universes will always simulate another universe,
and those universes would be high fidelity, and that all
of them would be like ours, um and that kind
of stuff. But you know, it does have that cosmic context.
(30:36):
I like the sender, the fact that it reminds us
that we don't really know where we are and what
the context is, and that is important. As we think
we are sometimes it could just be that we are
Super Mario brothers bouncing around inside a video game. That's
that's I think a useful reminder. I've always identified more
with LEGI, to be honest, because he's the taller one.
(30:57):
He's I think he's a yeah, he's just kind of
the alert, the clearer brother. He doesn't care about getting
all the spotlight right. He's he's over that, he's above it. Well,
whether we are in a simulation or not. Um, it's
really fun to kind of question the nature of the universe. Right, absolutely,
And it's only in asking these crazy questions that we're
(31:18):
going to make crazy discoveries. Right, the universe might not
be a simulation, but in thinking about ways to test it,
we might discover other weird stuff that that gives us
another crazy idea, and that one might actually be true.
So this is we're all physicists in the sense that
we'd like to all think about big questions about the universe.
It's like in trying to break the video game, that's
when you discover the hitting easter eggs. That's right, the
(31:40):
easter eggs of the universe. That's where we're all hoping for. Cool. Well,
I hope you guys are keeping it real out there,
and I enjoyed this discussion. I hope you're keeping it simulated.
And have a great day until next time.
Hosts And Creators
Daniel Whiteson
Kelly Weinersmith
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