How can we look for magnetic monopoles?

Daniel and Jorge talk about a particle with a pure magnetic charge and how to look for it using a cubic kilometer of ice.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hey, Daniel, does being a scientists require a lot of travel?

Speaker 2 (00:12):
Yeah, you know, conferences and meetings and all that kind
of stuff.

Speaker 1 (00:16):
But that's just talking about science. What about actually doing science?
And you need to go somewhere into the lab or
out into the field.

Speaker 2 (00:23):
Yeah, you got to do that. Also, I'm pretty lucky
that the collider I work out is in a pretty
beautiful spot in Switzerland.

Speaker 1 (00:30):
But do you actually have to go there, like you
have to press buttons or fix the machine?

Speaker 2 (00:35):
Who else is going to hit that big red button
in the control room if not me? Man?

Speaker 1 (00:38):
Or did you just go? Are of talk?

Speaker 2 (00:40):
There's definitely a lot of talking and coffee drinking, But yeah,
somebody has to actually build a thing and make it run.
So people got to be there in person.

Speaker 1 (00:47):
And I guess you got to talk to them, right,
I'm just wondering, an why do you actually have to
go to Switzerland?

Speaker 2 (00:53):
Yeah, some of us have to actually go to build
a thing. We built part of the detector and the
readout systems that gather the data. We're responsible for making
it work, and you got to be there when it breaks.

Speaker 1 (01:03):
M Now, is that the best physics location to get
stationed at?

Speaker 2 (01:08):
I think it's one of the top ones. It's definitely
better than the suburbs of Chicago, where we worked more recently.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Hey, what's wrong with Chicago?

Speaker 2 (01:16):
Chicago's awesome. The suburbs a little bit less exciting. But
there's an experiment on the Mediterranean. So those people basically
work on the French Riviera.

Speaker 1 (01:25):
Nice. Do they work in speedos and swimsuits or not?
Since it's the French Priviera.

Speaker 2 (01:31):
I don't think you want to visualize physicists and speedos.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
Yeah, let's not do that.

Speaker 2 (01:35):
On the other extreme, our experiments at the South Pole.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Ooh, that sounds super cool.

Speaker 2 (01:41):
It's a little too cool for my tastes.

Speaker 1 (01:43):
That sounds awesome, somewhere I want to go at least
once in my life. Hi am Jeha May, cartoonist and
the author of Oliver's Great Big Universe.

Speaker 3 (02:05):
Hi.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor at
uc Ervine, and I'd be happy to die without ever
going to the South Pole.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
Well, I guess you don't want to go to the
South Pool to die or have those two coin side.
But if you had the opportunity, when did you want
to go?

Speaker 2 (02:20):
I actually have had the opportunity, but I said no
thank you.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
You said no thank you.

Speaker 2 (02:26):
I've said no thank you. Why the South Pole seems
kind of cold and uncomfortable. I'm not that into unpleasant travel,
same reason I don't really want to go to space.

Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, well I think space is a little bit colder
than the South Pole. Yeah, don't you want to go
for the adventure? See some penguins, some live penguins, not
in a zoo.

Speaker 2 (02:43):
I think when I was younger, I was more into
adventure travel than I am now.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
Now you're more into couch adventures.

Speaker 2 (02:51):
I'm less into discomfort now than I used to be.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
But anyways, welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain
the Universe, a production of our Heart Radio.

Speaker 2 (02:59):
A mentally adventure, a way to travel the entire universe
and think about everything that's happening out there, how things
work at the tiny particle level, how things work at
the galactic scale, and everything in between. Physics is our
way of exploring this vast universe and trying to make
sense of it, and our job on the podcast is
to help you make sense of it as well.

Speaker 1 (03:20):
That's right. We live in an amazing cosmos and we
are just tourists making our way through it, observing all
the sites and learning all of the languages that it has,
and eating all the foods it has to offer.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
We're not tourists to this cosmos. We live here, man,
We are home here. We're just trying to understand our
own context. It's not like we came here from some
other part of the multiverse to poke in prad and
take pictures.

Speaker 1 (03:42):
Well, we're tourists in the sense that we're early here
for a very short amount of time.

Speaker 2 (03:46):
And we hope that in that time we can help
unravel some of the deep questions of the nature of
the universe.

Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yes, because there are a lot of amazing things out
there for us to ask questions about and to explore
and to wonder why they exist.

Speaker 2 (03:58):
Unfortunately, we can't mostly go out there to explore the universe.
We have to just see what comes to us here
on Earth. In this tiny little corner of the universe.
We can actually gather an incredible amount of information based
on all the particles that do arrive here on Earth,
the photons, the neutrinos, and sometimes the odd ball particles.

Speaker 1 (04:17):
Wait, we can't just put physicists in a spaceship and
send them out to other planets.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
If you want to fund that, I bet you'll have
lots of volunteer physicists. Just not me.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
What if they have nice chocolates like they do in Switzerland.

Speaker 2 (04:29):
I don't think chocolate is enough to counterbalance the discomfort, because,
after all, you can still get pretty nice chocolates without
getting in the spaceship.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
How do you know, maybe they taste better in space.

Speaker 2 (04:38):
We'll let someone else do that experiment and report back.

Speaker 1 (04:41):
It would be chocolates that are out as this world.

Speaker 2 (04:43):
Cosmic chocolates. Well, we can do lots of cool experiments
just here on Earth, and not just building telescopes to
capture photons or neutrinos. Sometimes we can actually use the
Earth itself to see these particles.

Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, the Earth is a big place and it catches
a lot of stuff from space, from other parts of
the galaxy, from other parts of the universe, and we
can use it to try to catch things that maybe
we haven't seen before.

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Some of the telescopes that we build actually rely on
the Earth being there to induce the particles to interact
to reveal themselves without the Earth. Some of these particle
telescopes wouldn't even work.

Speaker 1 (05:21):
So today on the podcast, we'll be asking the question
how can we look for magnetic monopoles?

Speaker 2 (05:32):
Now?

Speaker 1 (05:32):
Is this related to monopoly the game or the capitalism concept?

Speaker 2 (05:38):
I think it's somewhat related to capitalism. Yeah, having just
like one source of chocolate, somebody has a monopoly on chocolate.
Monopoles are also like a source of charge.

Speaker 1 (05:48):
Okay, it's a bit of a stretch. What are physicists
in this stretched analogy? Here are you the boot? Are
you the little car? Are you the top hat?

Speaker 2 (05:58):
We are buying it up. We are trying to purchase
knowledge about the universe.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Hopefully you don't land and go to jail, do not
pass go.

Speaker 2 (06:06):
I will happily go to physics jail if that's what's
required to unravel the mysteries of the universe.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
I guess researches are a little bit like drawing chance cards.

Speaker 2 (06:14):
Oh, it definitely is. I've had so many conversations with
students where they've been like, I've been working for sixty
hours a week for a year and haven't gotten anywhere.
I'm like, number one, don't work sixty hours a week.
Number two, there's no guarantee that time spent means progress made.
There's so much randomness in research.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
And number three, you should be working eighty hours a week.

Speaker 2 (06:33):
No, you should definitely not be working eighty hours a week.
You got to take care of your people's mental health. Man.

Speaker 1 (06:39):
But yeah, I guess it's not maybe related to the
board game. I'm guessing it's maybe related to magnetism and
magnetic polls exactly.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
It has to do with deep questions about where charge
comes from in electricity, where magnetism comes from in magnetism,
how the two are connected, why we have quantized amounts
of electric charge in this universe, and why we have
quantized amounts of electric charge in this universe. It's sort
of like a big open question in particle physics.

Speaker 1 (07:06):
Yeah, we're gonna jump into what a magnetic monopole is,
but first we were wondering how many people out there
had heard of this concept and thought about the idea
of how to look for them.

Speaker 2 (07:16):
So thanks very much to everybody who answers these questions.
If you would like to hear your voice on the
podcast answering the Question of the Day, please write to
me two questions at Danielandjorge dot com.

Speaker 1 (07:27):
We think about it for a second. How do you
think we can look for magnetic monopoles? What people had
to say, I have no idea what that means. But
maybe yeah, if it was a monopole, it messed with
other magnetic fields, and so we could look for disturbances
and die poles.

Speaker 3 (07:44):
First of all, I would ask who it really exists.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
I know you have a podcast on that, but I
haven't listened to it yet. I actually don't know.

Speaker 3 (07:53):
I really don't know. Looking forward to hear from it
from you, I.

Speaker 1 (07:56):
Would say by closing one eye.

Speaker 4 (07:58):
But I think they may not this because the needs
to rebalance the nature, and this just seems unbalanced.

Speaker 5 (08:04):
Where are monocles?

Speaker 4 (08:07):
I don't know what a monopole is, so I don't know.
Maybe something related to like the magnetic field of Earth,
just for the universe, Like maybe the universe has a
joint magnetic field. I don't know. I can't wait to
search it up.

Speaker 5 (08:21):
I'm not sure how we could look for magnetic monopoles.
If they're large, then maybe we could look at how
things act around them out in space. But if they're
really small, I have no idea.

Speaker 3 (08:36):
I wouldn't even know where to look, never mind how
to look. I believe classical electromagnetism doesn't allow for magnetic monopoles,
but maybe there is some kind of quantum weirdness that
at least theoretically predicts them. But I don't have a
clue about how to find.

Speaker 1 (08:59):
All right, we got to tell comedians here in the batch.
Somebody say, maybe we can look for monopoles by wearing monocles.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
The guy in Monopoly wears a monocole, after all, doesn't he?

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Oh, yes, it's all there. It was a hidden sign.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
You don't have a monopoly on jokes and physics.

Speaker 1 (09:14):
Apparently apparently not, because two people have brought up this joke.
Somebody said you can also look for them by closing
one eye. But which I I guess that's the question.
Maybe you have to roll the die.

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Depends if it's a left or right handed monopole.

Speaker 1 (09:28):
I suppose monopoles are handed. There's handedness and magnetism.

Speaker 2 (09:32):
If it has spin, then it's going to have handedness absolutely.

Speaker 1 (09:35):
M All right, well let's dig into this concept. Maybe
a lot of people haven't heard what a monopole is.
A magnetic monopole is, so Daniel explained to us what
is a magnetic monopole.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
A magnetic monopole is easiest to understand if you first
get your mind around what an electric monopole is. If
you could understand what a monopole is in electricity, then
we can understand what it is in magnetism. And in electricity.
A monopole is pretty simple. It's just something that has
an o overall charge, like an electron. Electron has negative charge.
It's a source of charge, and the proton has a

(10:07):
positive charge. It's a source of charge. You add up
all the charge on the object. It's either positive or
it's negative. It's not zero, and that creates a particular
kind of field. Gases law for electricity tells you, for example,
that the electric field through a surface depends on the
total amount of charge in the volume. So a monopole
and electricity is just something that has an overall charge

(10:29):
to it.

Speaker 1 (10:30):
So, as you said, like an electron is maybe the
ultimate negative electric monopole, right, Like it's just the point particle.
It's just a little point in space that has a
negative charge to it, and it looks negative from all
directions exactly.

Speaker 2 (10:44):
And the atom is the combination of the proton and
the electron. It's overall neutral. It has no overall charge,
so it's not a monopole, but it is a dipole
because the positive charge and the negative charge are not
exactly on top of each other. They don't totally cancel out,
so if you're closer to one than the other, you'll
still feel an electric field. But that's a dipole field.

(11:04):
It's a field that comes from something that has a
positive and a negative charge. Right, Dipole means two, so
it comes from something where the charge is overall zero,
but it has a distribution. So monopolsm that has an
overall charge, like the electron of the proton. A dipole
has no overall charge, but the distribution of charge inside
that neutral object still gives you an electric field, a

(11:26):
dipole field.

Speaker 1 (11:27):
I think what you mean is like the nucleus of
an atom is neutral because there are or at least
it's positive, right, because it has protons and neutrons in it,
And then the outer part of the atom has the electron,
which is negative, and the electron is going around the nucleus,
so at any given time there's one side of the
atom that's more negative than the other side, right, But

(11:48):
it's sort of like it's electron is flying around, right,
So it's changing for an atom all the time, exactly.

Speaker 2 (11:53):
And if you're really far away from the atom, then
the distance between the electron and the proton doesn't really matter.
You can think of them as on top of each other,
and the dipole field goes to zero very quickly. But
as you get close to it, then that does matter,
and so there is an electric field that doesn't cancel out. Right,
The electric field of the electron and the proton don't
cancel out, so you feel a dipole field.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Meaning like if you're really close to the atom, super
duper close to the and you're like an electron, for example,
you might be pushed in one direction more than the other.

Speaker 2 (12:21):
Yeah, exactly. You can imagine a field from the electron
and a field from the proton. If you're really far away,
then they're basically canceling each other out. But if you're
really close to the two of them, you're going to
be closer to one than the other by a big
fraction and they're not going to cancel out. So that's
a dipole field.

Speaker 1 (12:36):
So monopoles do exist, like an electron is a monopole,
isn't it.

Speaker 2 (12:39):
Yes, an electric monopole does exist. You can have a
piece of matter with an overall charge to it that
creates this monopole field, right, just a very simple field.
And dipole fields exist in electricity, in quadrupole fields and
octopole fields. Actually, it's part of this multipole expansion. If
you like to think about vector spaces and linear algebra,
you can break any yield and the expansion of these

(13:01):
different poles. The first term is the monopole, then the dipole,
then the quadrupole, et cetera, et cetera. But conceptually you
can think about the monopole is coming from something that
has an overall charge.

Speaker 1 (13:11):
All right, so that's an electric monopole. I'm guessing maybe
a magnetic monopole is different.

Speaker 2 (13:16):
A magnetic monopole is the exact analog, except use magnetic
charge instead of electric charge.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
Wait wait, wait, wait wait, what's the difference between magnetic
charge and electric charge?

Speaker 3 (13:25):
All right?

Speaker 1 (13:25):
I thought that was the same thing.

Speaker 2 (13:26):
Well, they're very tightly connected because we've unified electricity and
magnetism into one overall force called electromagnetism. Right, But there
are two different parts of it. There's electricity and there's magnetism.
There are different components of electromagnetism.

Speaker 1 (13:39):
Like what's the difference, Like, if two electrons are repelled
from each other, aren't they pushing away from each other
using the electromagnetic force?

Speaker 2 (13:48):
Yes, absolutely they are, and there's components to that which
are electric, like this the Colombic repulsion just from the
electric charges. But if they're in motion, then one of
them can be generating a magnetic field, and that magnetic
field and also turn the other electron for example, So
there's both electric and magnetic components to how two electrons interact.

Speaker 1 (14:07):
Hmmm, So I guess you would maybe have to dig
into the equations, But is there a way to sort
of explain the difference between magnetism and electricity, Like.

Speaker 2 (14:14):
Magnetism has a different set of charges. We call them
north and south, right, So you can have a magnet
that has a north and a south and you know
that if you bring the north end close to another
north end, it repels two north's repel and two south repels.
So these are the magnetic charges, the north and the
south charges.

Speaker 1 (14:30):
But aren't those like emergent properties, Like aren't the all
just made out of electrons, which are monopoles.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
Yes, exactly, All the magnetic fields in the universe are dipoles.
All of magnetism is generated by electric monopoles, either moving
charges or quantum spin. So all the magnetic fields we
have in the universe are generated by electric monopoles. If
there are magnetic monopoles, then those would also generate pure

(14:56):
magnetic fields, like a pure north field or pure south field,
not a dipole field where you have like a north
on one end and a south on the other. If
you have a bar magnet, for example, it has a
north on one side and a south on the other.
You try to crack it in half, You're not going
to get a pure north on one side and a
pure south on the other. You're going to end up
with two bar magnets, each of which is a dipole
with a north and a south. As far as we know,

(15:18):
there are no pure magnetic charges out there, no like
particles that just have a north or particles that just
have a south. That would be a magnetic monopole, the
equivalent of like an electron, which is an electric monopole.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
Okay, so I guess I'm still trying to wrap my
head around this difference, because I always thought it was
maybe the same thing. So you're saying, like, if I
have an electron and I spin it, it's going to
create a dipole.

Speaker 2 (15:42):
It's going to create a magnetic dipole. Right, It's going
to have a north and a south. So electrons have
quantum spin. They don't literally spin in the way that
like a top spins, but their quantum spin does generate
a little magnetic field. But that magnetic field has a
north and a south. It's not just a north or
not just a south.

Speaker 1 (15:59):
Right. But I guess the question is, like, what is
a magnetic field.

Speaker 2 (16:02):
A magnetic field is something that's generated either by a
magnetic monopole or induced by an electric current, right, And
electric currents can only induce magnetic dipoles. They can't induce
magnetic monopoles.

Speaker 1 (16:13):
I guess what I mean is like to the labors,
and how would you define a magnetic.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Field in the same way that you think about electric fields.
These are sort of theoretical concepts that explain how two
particles push on each other. So how does an electron
push on another electron? We say it's using the electric field.
Really that's just our way of saying, this is what
two electrons do to each other. Magnetic fields are similar,
the two are very closely paired. Electric fields and magnetic

(16:38):
fields very tightly coupled. But a magnetic field is different
from an electric field, right, It does different things. It's
generated in different ways. It applies different forces to charges,
or a magnetic field does different things to magnetic charges
than it does to electric charges. All these things are
described by Maxwell's equations, but in the end it's just descriptive, right,
Like we see these things happening to electrons and to

(16:58):
bar magnets and to other particles in the universe, we
try to boil them down into as compact the description
as possible, and then we come up with this story
that we tell ourselves about what's happening, and that story
includes fields. Are those fields real and physical things that
are out there in the universe. We can't like see
them directly, We only see their impact on other particles.
So when you ask me, like, well, what is a field, Well,

(17:20):
it's sort of a theoretical philosophical construct that explains the
motions of the particles that we see. They seem to
follow certain rules and those are best explained by these
fields that we've built up in our minds.

Speaker 1 (17:31):
I guess maybe I think what you're saying is that
a field is sort of like an idea that tells you, like,
if I put an electron in here relative to this
other electron, it's going to field a repulsive electric force
in that direction. Or if I put it over here
and this other location is going to feel the force
in a different direction by a different amount. And so
maybe a magnetic field is sort of the same, Like

(17:53):
if I have a magnetic field and I throw an
electron add it, it's going to do different things depending
on whether it's you know, flying close to the north
side of this magnetic field, or it's the south side.

Speaker 2 (18:05):
Right, Yeah, that's right. These fields were invented as a
concept to explain action at a distance, like how did
two electrons push on each other if they're not actually touching,
And so you create this field concept. Say an electron
creates a field through space, and that field can push
on the other electronic transfers momentum to the other electron. So, yeah,
magnetic fields have different rules, and these are all described

(18:26):
by Maxwell's equations. You throw an electron through a magnetic field,
it's going to curve. You throw an electron through an
electric field, it will get accelerated in some direction to
the rules are a little.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Bit different, So I guess the way the universe works,
it's just kind of weird thing. Like if you take
an electron and you spin it, it creates a field
around it, or like it hasn't affect on the things
around it, so that if you throw another electron near
that spinning electron, then it's going to curve a certain way,
depending on whether you're going like in the direction or
near its north and south poles. That's just the weird

(18:58):
thing that happens, right.

Speaker 2 (18:59):
Yeah, I guess you could say allophysics is explaining the
weird things that happen. And if you're not really comfortable
with the idea of like quantum spin, you can also
just take electrons and run them in a circle. You
take a wire and you coil it and you pass
a current through it. That's electrons moving in a circle.
That will generate a magnetic field, which will bend the
path of other electrically charged particles. But the key thing

(19:21):
is that all of the magnetic fields we've seen in
the universe are generated by the motion of electric charges
or the spinning of those electric charges, and those generate dipoles,
a combination of a north and a south. In principle,
by symmetry, you might imagine, why aren't there particles that
can generate a pure north or pure south the way
an electron can generate a pure positive or negatively charged

(19:43):
electric field.

Speaker 1 (19:44):
Well, it kind of seems like maybe there isn't such
a thing as a magnetic charge. Is there such a
thing as a magnetic charge? Isn't it more like? I
don't know, but maybe does it maybe have more to
do with the direction that these electrons are spinning, Like
is there such a thing as a magnetic charge? Or
is it just a direction that electrons are spinning.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
There's such a thing as the polarity of a magnetic field, right,
Magnetic fields have a north and a south. When you
take two bar magnets, you try to push them together,
you flip one over, they'll repel instead of a tract. Right,
So there's definitely a direction to these magnetic fields. They
have a charge to them in that sense the same way, like,
what's the difference between a positive and negative charge? It
really is just defined by the effect of a field

(20:24):
on it. What's the difference between an electron and an
anti electron. They have a different charge, which means you
put them in an electric field that go in different directions.
That's sort of what charge means. And so in the
same way, there's two different kinds of magnetic fields. This's
the north and the south kind. We've only ever seen
them paired together. The way, for example, you can make
a dipole out of a positive and negative charge, putting

(20:45):
them together to have something an overall neutral but still
has an effect on stuff nearby because it has a
dipole field. We've only ever seen a magnetic dipole field.
So you're asking like, is there really a magnetic charge, Well,
there's a directionality to the magnetic field. We've never I've
seen a particle that has a pure magnetic charge by itself.
So in that sense, everything is generated from the electric charge.

(21:07):
But that doesn't mean that they don't exist. And actually
it would be theoretically beautiful and kind of symmetric if
they did exist. It would complete these equations in this
sort of very nice way.

Speaker 1 (21:18):
I guess maybe what I'm trying to say is that
like an electron, right has electric charge and it has
a spin direction, but it doesn't really have like a
magnetic label or value or quantum quantity.

Speaker 2 (21:30):
To it, right, it does not, You're correct.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
The magnetic field and it's magnetic field direction comes from
the charge and the spin and in the same way
like for your fridge magnet. It's not like it's a
property of the things in it. It's just that the
electrons inside of that magnet are all spinning in a
certain way.

Speaker 3 (21:46):
Right.

Speaker 2 (21:46):
Yes, all magnetism we know of in the whole universe
are just dipoles or combinations of north and south, which
are generated from the electric charges. Fundamentally, but that doesn't
mean the only thing that can happen. It might be
that there are parts of out there that have a
magnetic charge the way the electron has an electric charge.
That would be a magnetic monopole. That's the question.

Speaker 1 (22:08):
All right, Well, let's dig into that question a little
bit more, and also how physinessists are trying to look
for these monopolies in nature. But first let's take a
quick break. All Right, we're talking about a very magnetic

(22:31):
subject here today, magnetic monopoles and whether they exist or
can exist in how we're actually looking for them now, Daniel,
I guess I'm kind of confused here. It seems like
magnetic fields are just kind of what happens when you
take an electric charge and you spin it right, either
quantum spin or you actually like physically make an electron
go around in a circle. You create a magnetic field.
And a magnetic field is sort of defined by that

(22:53):
right by its direction, Like if you spin it, Let's
say I spin an electron clockwise, it's going to generate.
Can I feel in like going up or going down right?
And so I feel like going up or down automatically
gives you a diepole because you need an up and
a down to the fine a direction, And so I
don't even know what a monopole would look like, Like

(23:15):
how can something have the same direction from all sides.

Speaker 2 (23:17):
Same way an electric field does? You have an electron
in empty space that has an electric field which you
know either points towards the electron or away from the
electron in every direction simultaneously. Right, there's a total overall
charge there. It's like a source of electric charge.

Speaker 1 (23:33):
So then how would it act on something else? Like
let's say that a mono magnetic monopole did exist. Let's
say I have one in my hand, and now I
have a magnet on my other hand with a north
and a south pole. What would this thing do? It
would only attract the north part of my magnet or
something like that.

Speaker 2 (23:49):
If you're holding a north charge and then you have
another north charge, they would repel. If you have a
south charge, they would attract. You can apply all of
your intuition from electricity because we think the things are
perfectly symmetric. The equations should be the same. So if
you think, like, well, what happens to a neutral atom
if I have an electron nearby, Well, the electron repels
the other electron and attracts the proton. So if you

(24:12):
have a north charge in your hand and then you
have a dipole nearby, then it will attract the south
part of the dipole and repel the north part of
the dipole. That dipole will align itself in that magnetic field.

Speaker 1 (24:22):
I see, repel the north part. But what will attract
the south part of my magnet?

Speaker 2 (24:27):
Exactly? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (24:28):
What if I have like a spinning electron.

Speaker 2 (24:31):
A spinning electron will create a dipole field, right, so
then you'll have two dipoles.

Speaker 1 (24:35):
Oh, I think I see the difference. Like, if I
have a monopole in my left hand and a dipole
in my right hand, the forces it exerts on my
right dipole magnet are always going to be sort of
pointing away from the north monopole. Right, That's kind of
what it means to have a monopole. Whereas if I
had a dipole in each hand, how they affect each
other sort of depends on how I twist my hands

(24:57):
or in what direction or where I put them relative
to each other. But a monopole magnetic monopole would sort
of act like a point particles that I think is
what you're saying. It would like exert forces the same
in all directions.

Speaker 2 (25:09):
And theoretically this comes from exactly the kind of questions
you're asking. You're basically saying, it seems like magnetism is
like just a part of electricity, right, because electricity is
really the source of everything. But the theory says, well,
if electric sources can generate magnetic fields, why can't we
have like magnetic sources that generate electric fields, right? Why
can't we do that? Also? Why isn't there a symmetry there?

(25:32):
Why can't we have things that are just sources of
magnetic fields and then when they spin they make electric dipoles.
Or if you have a current of magnetic sources that
would generate an electric field the same way a current
of electric charges would generate a magnetic field. Wouldn't it
be awesome if there was symmetry to them? And if
you look at the equations Maxwell's equations for electromagnetism, there

(25:53):
is this weird asymmetry. The universe seems to prefer electricity.
It seems to be more primary, and that's because we
have electric charges. And if you say, well, actually, what
if there are monopoles in the universe and you change
Maxwell's equations to allow for monopoles, then they become perfectly symmetric.
All the equations are just like mirror images of each other.
Electricity and magnetism is just two sides of exactly the

(26:15):
same coin. So if there were monopoles, it would be
this like beautiful theoretical clicking together of these two pieces.

Speaker 1 (26:23):
Hmmm, interesting, I guess maybe I wonder if the big
question is really sort of related to the idea that,
like we don't really know why spinning charges create magnetic fields.
Do we know that?

Speaker 2 (26:34):
I guess it depends on what kind of answer you're
looking for for why. I mean, we know that it happens.
We have a mathematical description of it. We've invented this
concept of a field to explain like the forces on
particles in the vicinity of moving charges. What kind of
why are you looking for?

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Like if I have a spinning electron on my right
hand and a spinning electron on my left hand, why
does the spinning electron in my right hand one make
this other spinning electron spin in the same direction?

Speaker 2 (27:03):
I think actually they want to make each other spin
any opposite directions.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
Right, opposite directions?

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Yeah, oh yeah, that's a good question. You know in
our universe, that's what happens, right, we see, that's what happens.
And if you try to make an explanation for it
without magnetic fields, it doesn't work. If you add this
thing called the magnetic field, then it does work. Right,
So far, just descriptive. You know, you're basically asking, like,
why do you have magnetic fields? Could you have a
universe without magnetic fields? You certainly could, But our universe

(27:28):
seems to have them. You're asking, could you have a
universe without magnetic fields? I think that would be more complicated.
It would be a very different universe. You wouldn't have light,
for example. So I'm not sure you could have a
universe without magnetic fields. I think maybe that's the question
you're asking, like why are they here?

Speaker 1 (27:43):
No, I think I'm more asking, like, you know, how
like in space, if you have a whole bunch of
rocks twirling around an object like the Sun for example,
their orbits are going to collapse down into a disc
because like the forces balance out in the direction that
they're not spinning around the Sun, but they don't align.
You know, there's like a mechanical explanation for why orbits

(28:05):
tend to be discs.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
Yeah, that comes from conservation of angular momentum, right.

Speaker 1 (28:09):
Right, right. So Now, like if I have a spinning
electron on my right hand, I wonder I'm just wondering
if maybe it wants to make the other electron spin
in the opposite way, because if it's spinning, you know
what I mean, Like the motion plus the electric forces
somehow make it so that if they're spinning in opposite directions.
That's the most balanced way that they can be.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
I don't think there's a simple mechanical explanation for it
in that sense. It's just that the kind of thing
we see happen in our universe, and I think that
theoretically it'd be pretty hard to build the universe without
magnetic fields. To me, that's the best answer for why
they're here. You know, it's something we see that happens,
and we don't know how to build a universe without it.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
All right, maybe that's the answer. It's just the way
it is.

Speaker 2 (28:51):
It is just the way it is. But in terms
of balance, it's like fascinating that the universe has all
these electric charges in it. We see them all over
the place, but we've never seen a magnetic charge, and
it would be so beautiful and symmetric if it did not,
only because it would like balance the equations of maxwell
in this way that like, let us have electric charges
generating magnetic field and magnetic charges generating electric fields and

(29:14):
all sorts of stuff. But it would also answer other
deep theoretical questions we have, like why is electric charge
quantized at all? Like why is electric charge always this
weird number of rational number one, third two third minus
one plus two. Why is it never like zero point
seventy one four?

Speaker 1 (29:33):
All right, So it sounds like breaking this problem or
figuring it out would tell us about why things are
the way they are, which is my question in the
first place.

Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah, it's really interesting, and it actually does have to
do with angular momentum, as you were talking about a
minute ago. In our universe, angular momentum is quantized, right,
how fast things spin around. Other things can't just have
any arbitrary value. They have to be quantized, like linear momentum,
how fast you're moving through space, how much momentum you have,
your mass times your velocity doesn't have to be quantized,

(30:03):
it can be any number, but your angular momentum. Right,
How the momentum of spinning does have to be quantized
in our universe. That's a really fascinating fact. But if
you have magnetic monopoles in the universe, you have electric
charge particle and a magnetically charged particle, then their angular
momentum is related to the product of their two charges,
like the amount of magnetic charge and the amount of

(30:25):
electric charge. And because the product has to be quantized,
that means they both have to be quantized. So if
there's a single magnetic monopole anywhere in the universe that
dates angular momentum has to be quantized, which means its
charge has to be quantized, and so does electric charge.
So if magnetic monopoles exist, then electric and magnetic charges

(30:45):
both have to be quantized.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
I think you're saying that you know, are electric charges
are quantized? Like can you have just any amount of
electric charge right now? As far as we.

Speaker 2 (30:55):
Know they are quantized. You cannot just have like an
arbitrary charge. You can't. We're not like seeing particles like
one point series or is there one to two electric charges?
And point nine nine nine seven electric charges? They seem
to be quantized in these discrete units.

Speaker 1 (31:09):
But then magnetic charge it sort of depends on that
electric charge and how fast it's spinning.

Speaker 2 (31:14):
Well, magnetic dipoles do, right, If there are magnetic monopoles,
there are north charges and south charges out there, then
you can also ask the question are those quantized? And
if so, then why The question is really like why
is electric charge? Why is any charge at all quantized?
Why isn't it just some arbitrary value. Why don't we
see like electrons out there with at big spectrum of

(31:34):
different charges. Why do they all have the same one?

Speaker 1 (31:37):
Well, isn't it the case that electric charges quantized because
it's small at the unit that we know, and the
electron is a.

Speaker 2 (31:44):
Particle, right, it is a particle.

Speaker 1 (31:45):
Yeah, you're asking like, why can't electron have half of
them an electron charge?

Speaker 2 (31:49):
Yeah? Or a real number right? Or an irrational charge?
Why is it always this integer or irrational ratio of
the integers? You know, we seem like one third or
minus two thirds or one seems to be quantized. Yes,
you're right, all electric charges are built out of electrons.
But the question is like why do particles themselves have
quantized electric charges? And the existence of a single magnetic

(32:11):
monopole in the universe would force all electric charges to
be quantized because their angular momentum depends on their charge.
An angular momentum we know has to be quantized. I
think the deep question is like why are things quantized?
To me? That's really fascinating, Like we could have had
a universe where particles have any random charge. Instead, we

(32:32):
seem to have a universe where particles have these fixed charges.
It's like a ladder of charges instead, of a spectrum,
and the question is why, and nobody really has an
answer to that except for this one explanation. If there's
a monopole out there in the universe, then particles have
to have quantized electric charges because it relates to their
angular momentum, which we already know has to be quantized.

(32:53):
We also think that magnetic monopoles were probably made in
the early universe, like when the Big Bang happened, it
made a bunch of particles of all, and if monopoles
are a thing, then a lot of them should have
also been made in the Big Bang and they should
still be flying around the universe.

Speaker 1 (33:08):
But wait, I guess maybe the question is what would
this monopole be embodied in. Would it be a particle
with a monopole? Would it just be like a random
monopole that exists out there, like a random like magnet
floating out in space that has this Is it made
out of something or is it would it just exist?

Speaker 2 (33:24):
It would be a new kind of particle, right, a
particle with some kind of mass and other properties you know, spin,
and it would have some kind of overall magnetic charge
the way electric charge doesn't just like float around unembodied
in the universe. It's attached to particles the same way
a magnetic charge would be attached to this new particle,
which we call a magnetic monopole. That would be the particle.

(33:45):
It's like the magnetic version of an electron, call it
the magnetron or whatever.

Speaker 1 (33:51):
Okay, now see now you're talking about a whole new
kind of particle.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
Yes, a whole new kind of particle exactly.

Speaker 1 (33:57):
And so this new particle that we've had I haven't
seen yet so far would have mass maybe, and it
would also have electric charge or would not have electric charge.

Speaker 2 (34:07):
It probably wouldn't have electric charge the way like an
electron doesn't have magnetic charge.

Speaker 1 (34:11):
Okay, and so it we just have this magnetic charge
to a no spin either. Don't all particles need to
have spin.

Speaker 2 (34:19):
Not all particles have spinned like the Higgs boson has
no spin, but every other particle does. And so this
particle probably would have spin. There's a bunch of different
theories of magnetic monopoles, but in most cases they have spin,
and a magnetic monopole spinning would create an electric dipole
the same way that an electron spinning has a little
magnetic field. A magnetic monopole spinning would have a little

(34:41):
electric field, all.

Speaker 1 (34:42):
Right, And so then this new particle would somehow exist
in ems. But we haven't seen it before.

Speaker 2 (34:47):
We've never seen one. Nobody has ever spotted a magnetic monopole.

Speaker 1 (34:51):
Wouldn't we have noticed by now, you know, like there
are a bunch of north pole particles out there floating.
Wouldn't they have been attracted to our south pole we
have known? Is that they you know, our soft poles
are getting heavier.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
M hm.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
Exactly. If magnetic monopoles were as common as electrons, then
absolutely yes, we would have noticed them, and they would
have played a big role in life, and experience of
living in this universe would be very different, and magnetism
would be very different, and it would have then bubbled
up through our primary experience. And when Maxwell wrote his laws,
instead of making them asymmetric and basing everything on electric charges,

(35:25):
it would have written magnetic monopoles into his equations. But
magnetic monopoles, if they do exist, are very very rare.
They're either none in the universe or very very few
because we've never seen any.

Speaker 1 (35:36):
Well, I guess that begs the question, how can we
look for them, and have we found any. So let's
dig into our search for this possibly imaginary maybe the
sense of making particle and what we're doing about it.
But first let's take another quick break. All right, you

(36:05):
have the monopoly today here on magnetic confusion for cartoonists,
and it sounds like there is a concept out there
called a monopole, which is maybe this theoretical or maybe
potential particle that might exist that has magnetic charge to it.
It attracts north and south or repels north and south

(36:25):
magnetic holes, but it doesn't really have a direction to it.
It only has either north or south to it as
an inherent property of its particleness.

Speaker 2 (36:34):
Exactly, and nobody ever seen one in that sense, it's theoretical,
but it's also very theoretically motivated. Like the universe is
sort of weird and out of whack, it would make
a lot of sense to see monopoles the same way
the universe seems weird and out of whack without anti matter. Right,
the equations work for matter, and they should also work
for antimatter, and so Direc said, like, hmm, let's go
look for antimatter, and then we found it. It's not

(36:56):
very much of it. It's pretty rare, but it shows
us that the universe has this symmetry. It was also
direct who said maybe we should go look for monopoles
as this sort of symmetric version of electrically charged particles.
So it would make a lot of sense if it
existed in the universe, but so far we've never seen one.

Speaker 1 (37:12):
Okay, which begs the questions are we looking for them?
Are physicists trying to find these or just sitting back
on their couch wondering if they exists.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
Some physicists are trekking out to the South Pole building
crazy amazing telescopes out of the ice in the South
Pole to look for neutrinos but also to look for
magnetic monopoles.

Speaker 1 (37:32):
Nice. So this is a famous experiment, or a big experiment.

Speaker 2 (37:35):
It's a famous and big experiment. There's a big group
here at you see Irvine that works on it. It's
called the Ice Cube Neutrino Observatory, and it literally is
an ice cube. They take a cubic kilometer of ice
on the South Pole, they drill holes in it, and
they bury cameras on these long strings within the ice.
So they basically have instrumented a cubic kilometer of ice

(37:58):
looking for flashes of light of particles traveling through that ice.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
Wait, what, so they just take like an ice shelf
down in Antarctica and they drill down like a kilometer
or two, and they rope down cameras instruments. But then
they're pretty far apart from each other, aren't they.

Speaker 2 (38:15):
Yeah, they have like ninety of these strings. Each one
is like one to two kilometers long. And as you say,
they drill these crazy deep holes in the ice and
then they have these strings. So every string has like
a lot of cameras on it, a lot of these
light sensors. They lower those down into these holes and
then they pour water in so the whole thing freezes

(38:35):
up again. So then you have this cubic kilometer of
ice with about five thousand sensors distributed through it. You're right,
they're not like equally distributed. They'd love to have more strings,
but this is sort of the best they can do.

Speaker 1 (38:47):
So then how are they looking for monopoles?

Speaker 2 (38:49):
So what you can do with this ice is you
can look for Cherenkov light. That's light that particles emit
when they fly through material. Faster than photons can fly
through that material, where you can't move faster than light
in a vacuum. But when light moves through ice, it
moves that's slower than the speed of light in a vacuum,
and particles don't always have to follow that same limit.

(39:09):
So if a muon, for example, is moving through the
ice faster than a photon could, it creates this sort
of superluminal wake. The way, for example, if you're on
a jet ski in a lake, you're creating a wake
behind you because the boat that's making the ripples is
moving faster than the ripples, so the ripples sort of
like add up to make this wake, this cone of

(39:30):
ripples behind you. The same way, particles moving through this
material emit this special light, this cherankof light in a
cone as they move, so you can use this to
spot particles moving really really fast through the ice. And
they build this thing not to look for monopoles, but
to look for neutrinos that move up through the Earth.
So they come from the Sun or somewhere out in

(39:50):
deep space, they move up through the Earth, interact somewhere
in the Earth, and they create like a muon which
flies through the ice, and that tells them that a
neutrino was there. That's why they built this experiment as
a neutrino observatory.

Speaker 1 (40:03):
Wait, so they built it to technittrinos, but you can
also use it to potentially a monopole particle exactly.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
This is one of the clever like reapplications of these things.
They build it for one thing, but then they realize, actually,
we could also use this to look for something else,
because a muon and a monopole going through the ice
would look very very different. Magnetic monopoles, if they exist,
would make a spectacular signature in the ice. Because of
this relationship between the magnetic and electric charges. We know

(40:31):
that the minimum magnetic charge of a monopole, if it exists,
is basically the equivalent of like sixty eight electric charges.
So a magnetic monopole, if it exists, it's like very
very magnetically charged. So when it flies through the ice,
it would create like a series of brilliant flashes of
this drank off light.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
Wait, I guess there's so many questions there. Why do
you think a monocle would be so magnetically charged? Firs,
Whill where does that guess?

Speaker 2 (40:56):
Come from. So it comes from this argument that electric
and magnetic charging are connected by angular momentum. Parames to
the two has to be quantized because that's related to
angular momentum. So that let's you actually calculate what the
minimum magnetic charge has to be. If that argument holds,
it's sort of like the fine structure constant over two,
So that's like one thirty seven over two. So the

(41:17):
minimum magnetic charge has to be like sixty eight and
a half times the electric charge. So basically, if there
are magnetic monopoles out there, they are very very magnetic.
They're not just like a little bit magnetic.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
And so as it goes through the ice, this particle
wouldn't interact with the water molecules.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
It would interact with the water molecules. That's what generates
the trenk Off radiation is the interaction of this particle
with the electromagnetic fields of the water. That's what generates
this radiation because it's interacting with the material it's moving through,
and that interaction would generate all of this radiation. It
wouldn't interact in the same way an electron interacts, right,
because electron has a different charge than a magnetic monopole

(41:56):
would and because this thing is basically more charge urged
than an electron is even though it also has a
different kind of charge, its magnitude is also greater. It
emits more radiation, like eight thousand times as much radiation.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
I guess you know we talked last time about neutrinos
that they can go through things because they don't feel
the electromagnetic force, only the weak force. Right, But here
is something that is totally super magnetic. You're saying it's
very magnetic. Why wouldn't it sort of bounce around when
it hits or flies close to all of these water molecules?
Why would it keep going?

Speaker 2 (42:29):
Yeah, that's a good question. If you shoot an electron
and a big blob of ice, it doesn't go all
the way through, right, it gets absorbed. But if you
shoot a muon through it. Muon, remember is an electron,
but with more mass it can penetrate through because it
has more mass, so it like has more momentum to
keep going. In a monopole, we think also would be
massive and so it would survive making it through the ice.
It's more like a muon than an electron, but also

(42:53):
has this crazy magnetic charge that makes it radiate a
lot as it flies through.

Speaker 1 (42:57):
Wait, so you think it would also be massive. Why
do you think it would be massive?

Speaker 2 (43:00):
There are lots of different theories for magnetic monopoles. Some
of them predicted it would be massive, some of them
predicted wouldn't be. Basically, this experiment can only see the
ones that are massive. If there's a magnetic monopole out
there that has very very low mass, then it wouldn't
make it through the ice, and so you wouldn't see
this signature.

Speaker 1 (43:15):
So now I feel like this is just getting more
theoretical by the minute. So now you're assuming it exists,
and also that it's massive, and also that it has
a huge magnetic charge to it, and also.

Speaker 2 (43:26):
That it's going super duper fast. We can only see
these things if they're moving like relativistically, right. Cherenkov light
is only emitted if the thing is moving faster than
photons through that material. If you have a slow massive monopole,
it wouldn't emit this light. We wouldn't see it. But
this telescope is capable of seeing massive monopoles with a
lot of magnetic charge if they're also moving faster than

(43:48):
three quarters of the speed of light. So you're right,
it can't look for every kind of monopole, but it's
definitely worth looking because if they are there, they would
be spectacular signature, would be like very obvious, very easy
to see it, and very hard to spoof.

Speaker 1 (44:00):
But I guess, hasn't this observatory been out there for
a while. Wouldn't this have boundaries by now? Or no,
it is these weird streaks.

Speaker 2 (44:08):
Yeah, you're right, it seems like it would be kind
of obvious in their data. Why wouldn't they have noticed it?
But you know, it's not like people are always looking
through the data by eye. When you do an analysis
of your data in a particle physics experiment, you're looking
for a particular kind of thing usually, and so this
might have been missed if nobody was looking for it.
So people went and did a dedicated search, like, let's
look through the data to see if there's any kind

(44:28):
of these weird things. So they've been running your life
for like almost a decade, and so they look through
all of their data trying to see if there are
any big, spectacular signatures of bright monopoles passing through this
cube of ice. And they didn't see any want.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
Want wam, so all this setup was for nothing.

Speaker 2 (44:47):
All this setup tells us that if there are monopoles
out there, they're either not moving fast, or they don't
have enough mass, or there's something very different from what
we expected. But it's pretty awesome to take this cube
of ice in the South Pole and to look for
these things. I love how dramatic the signature is. I
love how exciting it is. Because also they're going to
keep running it. It might be that monopoles are just

(45:07):
pretty rare, Maybe there aren't very many left over, Maybe
there weren't very many made in the Big Bang. Maybe
they're all clustered together the center of the galaxy. We
just don't know, so it's worthwhile to keep looking. So
they're going to keep running this experiment, and they're going
to keep looking for monopoles, and you know, it only
really takes one because it's such a dramatic and spectacular signature.

Speaker 1 (45:27):
And it sounds I give you fine one. It would
be pretty significant, right, like you're just trying to prove
its existence exactly.

Speaker 2 (45:33):
Just knowing that it's possible for them to exist would
be amazing game changing, right the same way that like
discovering one single particle of antimatter proved that antimatter is
a thing, and this symmetry exists in the universe, like
the guy got the Nobel Prize for literally a picture
of one particle that he found in nineteen twenty nine.
And so the discovery of a single monopole would tell

(45:55):
us something really deep about the nature of electricity and
magnetism in our universe. I would answer your question, like,
why is magnetism a thing, well, because magnetic monopoles are
part of our universe for the same reason the charges
are a thing, and so to me that would be
really fascinating and these things are totally worth looking. Every
time I hear about magnetic monopoles, I'm like, ooh, I
hope they found it.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
I guess maybe a question you can ask is what
if they don't exist, what does that mean about the universe.

Speaker 2 (46:20):
It means the universe is imbalanced in this weird, uncomfortable way.
We like symmetry in our equations, we like balance, We
like things to not prefer one direction or another. So
it's pretty weird if electricity and magnetism have this deep relationship,
but the universe prefers electricity for some reason. It's the
same as being uncomfortable about like why matter is matter
and antimatter is pretty rare. We'd like an explanation for that,

(46:44):
And so if there's a symmetry, then we don't need
an explanation. If there isn't a symmetry, then we need
to know why.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
Well, it sort of sounds like, you know, generally you
can explain magnetism. We just electric charge and spin or
spin direction. I wonder you even need magnetism.

Speaker 2 (47:00):
Yeah, well that's why we combined electricity magnetism too one theory.
So in that sense, is magnetism even really a thing? Well,
electromagnetism is a thing, and so magnetism on its own
doesn't really make sense. It's sort of like saying, you know,
do you need elephant tails? Well, they're part of elephants
that don't exist by themselves, but they're also an important
part of the elephant, right, elephants don't want you chopping

(47:22):
their tails off.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
I don't know, I haven't asked any elephants, and they
need to be fine with their tails. I guess what
I mean is maybe like a you know, like maybe
our wonder if we're trying to look for an effect
that we can already explain. Do you know what I mean?
Like we have like a charge, we have spin. That
kind of explains maganism, doesn't it.

Speaker 2 (47:42):
Yeah. Absolutely, we can explain all the phenomena we see
in the universe without magnetic charges. But the explanation we
build has this hole in it, which makes us wonder
if we're missing something, the same way that when we
put the periodic table together, we notice there's some holes
in it. There's some gaps in there. I wonder if
that kind of thing exist. Let's go out and try
to make technetium. Oh, look, it does exist. That feels satisfactory. Right,

(48:05):
It's like an OCD person filling in that last square.
So the structure of the theory of electromagnetism seems so
tantalizing and tempting it suggests that they might exist. So
you're right, we don't need them to explain anything we've
seen in the universe. In fact, we have to go
out and make special experiments, just a hunt for effects.
They can't be explained with electric charges. But we'd love

(48:26):
if they did exist because it would just make the
theory more beautiful and balanced.

Speaker 1 (48:29):
And that's what physics. It's all about beauty and balance.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
It's about finding simple explanations for the complex phenomena.

Speaker 1 (48:36):
Yeah, all right, well, good luck to the ice cubed
nutrino experiment. I hope they find a monopole or a
fast moving heavy monopole, right, but those are the requirements,
a highly magnetic, fast massive monopole.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
And if they do, I hope they invite you down
there to help them celebrate.

Speaker 1 (48:51):
Oh man, for sure, in fact, invite me now, I'll
totally go. I'll help you dig one of the one
of the holes.

Speaker 2 (48:58):
All right, put that on your tour.

Speaker 1 (49:00):
Sounds good. Well, we hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for
joining us, see you next time.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain
the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.