September 19, 2019 • 35 mins
Learn how the Higgs-Boson could unravel the universe with Daniel and Jorge
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hey, Daniel, I know you're probably sick of talking about this.
What's coming? Are you sure the LHC, the large Hatron
collider that you work on, is not going to destroy
the planet Earth for the last time. There's no chance
that the LHC will create a black hole that then
gobbles up the Earth, not even a little You're not worried,
(00:29):
even a little bit, like it's not even a possibility.
The thing is, we don't worry about small things like
destroying the Earth. It gets particle physicists worried is things
like destroying the entire universe. Hi. I'm more hammy cartoonist
(00:57):
and the creator of PhD comics. Hi. I'm Daniel Whitson.
I'm a particle physicist. I have not yet destroyed the
universe yet. Is how you introduce yourself every time? Hi
am Daniel. I have not yet destroyed all of existence.
That's right, and that's true about everybody. And if you're
listening to this podcast, and that is proof that the
universe still exists, that's right. Our word, every word we
(01:20):
speak should be a word of comfort that the universe
is still at least where you are still happening. That's right,
and always somebody's Internet goes out, they're going to think
the universe's ending, right, what's going on? That's why somebody's
listening to usn't it? That's right? But if folks remember,
a WiFi interruption is not the end of the universe.
(01:40):
You will survive. It's the end at the end of
my universe, Daniel. If somebody's WiFi goes out, do we
stop existing because they don't hear it anymore? Well, we
got deep in the philosophy all of us. Oh my goodness, Well,
welcome to our podcast. Daniel and Jorge. Do not destroy
the universe yet, or at least explain how we're not
destroying the universe. A production of I Heart Radio. That's right,
(02:02):
our podcast in which we think about things big and small.
We explore the universe. We find the craziest, most mind
blowing facts, and we explain them to you in a
way that makes you chuckle a little bit and also
come away with some deep understanding of your context of
your existence. And sometimes we talk about the really small
things that can maybe destroy the really big things in
(02:23):
the universe. One of my favorite things about physics is
when you learn something new and you discover Wow, the
universe is like a little more fragile than I thought.
What do you mean, well, like, how old were you
or what did you think the first time you learned that,
Like the Earth that we live on is just this
like thin crust of rock floating on a massive ocean
(02:43):
of lava. Right, all of a sudden, there doesn't feel
so stable to me. Right, wow, I think I learned
that just now, Daniel. Thank you for totally giving me
anxieties now, or that I hadn't been enough before, or
like that our atmosphere, right is this very thin shell
of gas surrounding a huge planet. It could easily just
get like blown away by some cataclysmic you know, solar
(03:06):
flare or something. Wow. Um, I hadn't thought about those things,
but thank you. Yeah. So, sometimes you learn something about
the university gives you context. It helps you understand that
our situation here is maybe an accident or is the
product of the particular arrangements of things, and and so
physics tells you like what's stable about the universe, what's
(03:26):
dangerous about the universe, what you should worry about, and
what you shouldn't worry about. Yeah, so it's not just
the Earth that is sort of in a precarious balance.
It's also I mean, you're you're saying it's also reality itself. Possibly, Yeah,
you know, as we peel back layers of reality, you
understand how the universe works. Sometimes we discover things like, oh, well,
this seems to be sort of an accident, you know,
(03:48):
and we never know whether things really are an accident
or whether it's due to some sort of deeper understanding.
Like something we've talked about before is the relationship between
like the electron and the proton, Right, the charge of
those two particles exactly balanced, which means we can have
hydrogen atoms and chemistry and physics and bananas and all
sorts of good stuff. We don't know if that's an accident, right,
(04:08):
We don't know why that's that way. It's essential for
life to happen, but we don't know if it's that
way for a reason or if it's a coincidence. And
so sometimes we stumble across other things like that that
seems essential for life to be the way we wanted,
but maybe accidental and may also not be permanent. Yeah,
and so one of those things is something that you
might be familiar with. We're hoping if you're a listener
(04:30):
of our podcast, and so today on the program, we
will be asking the question will the Higgs boson destroy
the universe? And I like the way you phrase that
because it means if the universe does get destroyed, it's
the Higgs Boson's fault. Our particle physicist is going to
(04:50):
destroy the Blame it on the boson. Oh, I'm sorry,
I meant um, I meant to blame you. Daniel Whiteson
going to destroy the universe. Now I hear government agents
knocking on my door on your podcast from my Heart Radio,
Daniel Moore destroyed the universe. Yeah, so this is a
question that I think it was all over the news
(05:11):
back when they were looking for the Higgs boson. Everyone
was worried and concerned that that you guys in Geneva
at cern we're maybe gonna do something in your experiment
that was going to cause our demise of the Earth,
Like maybe you were gonna unlock something in the universe
that was going to swallow us all up and destroy
the planet. That's right, This sort of two totally different
(05:34):
but both devastating concerns. Right. One is when you collide
to protons, could you trigger really strong gravity and make
microscopic black hole which could then eat stuff around it
and grow and eat the whole earth. Yeah, that's what
That's what people were. People were trying to shut you down. Yeah,
people sued the LHC. There was like court cases. We
have to like prove in court if this is something
reasonable to do. And for those of you suddenly worried
(05:57):
out there, there's no danger. These kind of collisions that
we do the LHC happen all the time. Particles from
space hit the Earth and hit the Sun, and they
do not create black holes that gobble the Earth. So
we are feel like that that's a thin excuse. Daniel.
You're like, look, everyone else around this has nuclear bombs,
so therefore we should be able to tinker with one,
(06:18):
no problem. Well, you know, actually when people set off
the first nuclear bomb, they were worried, right they were
where they might ignite the atmosphere and that was a
serious concern, but they did it anyway. But now that
they've done it, we know pretty well that blowing up
a nuclear bomb doesn't ignite the atmosphere. Well, I think
they did it in secret. That was the key. You
guys were doing it in the public public eye. I
(06:38):
always wonder like, did the physicists tell the government agents
that that was a risk. You know, they have to
fill out a form, you know, like, oh, if you're
going to potentially ignite the atmosphere, please fill out this form,
Please fill out this r IB. That's right. Yeah, But
so that's a concern number one, which is not something
worry about. We thought about the physics. We are not
going to create a black hole which destroys the Earth.
(06:59):
We might a black hole, but it would evaporate very rapidly.
I think it's all sorts of fascinating insights about the universe. Right,
So you're saying the atmosphere creates black holes all the time.
It's not that different than what you do. And even
if you do make one, it's going to evaporate. That's right,
because these tiny black holes will disappear, they'll evaporate because
they'll radiate away very quickly. That's the theory at least.
And you're you're pretty sure about that. I'm pretty sure
(07:21):
about that. Yes. I mean, my family lives on Earth,
so I'm risking my family by keeping the l e
C running. And I'm pretty confident well, I've seen you
say that you would risk a lot to answer answer
is about the universe? That's true, Yeah, I would sacrifice
a good fraction of humanity. You get to talk to aliens,
but not my family fraction. Which fraction to be talking about.
(07:44):
But there's a totally separate concern about whether or not
the Earth will get destroyed, but actually whether we could
trigger a cataclysmic event which fundamentally changes the nature of
the universe. So it involved the Higgs boson. And so
you're telling me the Higgs boson might destroy the universe?
Is this something that everyone knows? Do you think there
was some press about it a while ago? But I
(08:06):
was curious, like, are people worried that the Higgs boson
might destroy the universe? Do people even remember what the
Higgs is? Because it's been a little while since I
got pressed, and you know, stuff has happened since then. Um,
And so I was curious, do everyday people worry about
whether I'm going to ruin the universe? So I've run
out and asked them. So, as usual, Daniel went out
(08:26):
and asked people on the street if if they think
the Higgs boson will destroy the universe. So think about
it for a second. If you have maybe heard of
this news item, or if you have thought about the
Higgs boson and the precariousness of nature, think about it
for a second. What would you answer if you were asked,
will the Higgs boson destroy the universe? Here's what people
(08:47):
had to say. Do you worry about the Higgs boson
destroying the universe? I don't have anything to back that up. No,
I don't worry about yet. Maybe because the unknown. Have
you ever heard of the Higgs boson? Me on? Real
dumb right now? I have a lot of existential warries,
but not that one um nowadays. Okay, the last name
(09:09):
Higgs sounds familiar, but now alright, So people don't seem
very concerned. I think it sounds like mostly out of
because they didn't know that the Higgs boson could destroy
the universe. No, and a lot of people hadn't even
heard of the Higgs boson, which may felt like physics
has relaxed too much. We had our big thing with
the Higgs boson. We gotta get back in the news
because he gets forgotten us get on that branding. That's right,
(09:33):
Where is the PR Department? I gotta talk to them. Now.
People weren't really very familiar with the Higgs, and nobody
was worried that the Higgs boson would destroy the universe,
at least until I asked them this question. And then
they started googling it, and now maybe they're a little worried.
So okay, so you're telling me, Daniel that the Higgs,
something about the Higgs boson could potentially destroy the universe.
So let's let's let's step through it. First of all, um,
(09:56):
let's maybe recap for our listeners what the Higgs boson is. Yeah,
so the Higgs boson is a particle we discovered at
the LHC in twelve. It's the last particle ever found
so far, and it completes the standard model and it
answered a really interesting question, which is where does mass
come from? We talked on this podcast what is a particle?
And we think of them as these little dots in space,
(10:17):
but you have to ask, like, where is the mass
of the particle of something is a tiny dot? Where
does it get its mass? And it's not so much
about like where where does it come from or what
gets it's it's more like particles have this thing and
it's more like how does how does it manifest itself
in the universe, Like, how do we what gives you
that feeling of mass? Yeah, and it's also a question
(10:37):
of patterns, like we look at all the particles and
they all have different masses. You know, this one is
a lot, this one is a little, but they're all
the same size, so it's not like they have more
stuff to them. So we're wondering, like, why do these
particles have this mass and this particle of the other mass.
For example, we talked on another podcast about the weak
nuclear force and electromagnetism, which are fundamentally the same thing,
(10:58):
but the weak nuclear force is really weak because the
particles that carry it have a lot of mass, and
the photon has no mass, which is why electromagnetism is
so powerful. So this is sort of the question that
led to the discovery of the Higgs, is why some
of these particles have mass and some of them don't.
What's the mechanism there? And it turns out the answer
is this Higgs field, this invisible thing that fills space
(11:22):
and interacts with some of these particles in different ways,
and the Higgs boson is a manifestation of that field,
Like when parts of that feel get really excited, that
appears as like a ripple in that field, which we
interpret as a Higgs boson. So there's two physical things,
the field and the boson itself, which is the particle, right,
and they were sort of discovered at different times, right,
(11:43):
Like people physicists came up with the idea of the
Higgs field first to kind of make all of the
equations in the universe work. Dude named Higgs, Yeah, that
makes sense. How do you feel about that naming choice there?
I feel like we could do better, to be honest.
I mean, Peter Haig, you know, he did this thing.
He did his thing, and he deserves it. But you know,
(12:04):
you might maybe call it the mass field. Would that
be a better name? Yeah? I think that would be hard,
to be more instructive, that would save you that explanation.
The thing that gives things mad. Just called the mass field,
massive field, the mass giving field, Yeah, dessert field. Would
you call it the desertion because that's what the that's
what people immediately associate, I'm sure, um so yeah. So
(12:27):
so it is that the whole universe is premiered by
this field, which is like, what would you describe a field?
It's just kind of like a It's just like an
aura of the out there, right, aura, Like I don't
know how would you describe a field to somebody? That's
a great question, man. The whole episode about what is
a quantum field? And a field is just um, it's
a physical thing has a value everywhere in space, like
(12:50):
an electric field, right, is strong here and weak there.
The gravitational field is strong here and weak there, and
kind of like an aura. I don't know what it is.
I mean I read about horrors and it's stronger here
or stronger around you kind of thing. Or you can
say an odor and odor is stronger here and not
so strong there. Um such a small difference between or
(13:10):
and order, that's right. But so a field is something
we imagine is everywhere in the universe and has a
different value at each location. Right, It's like part of
the fabric of the universe. And would that be a
good way to say it's like one of the things
that make up the universe. As long as you make
that hand gesterre when you say it, you know, that
makes it look all dramatic that our listeners can't see
then yes, I agree, it's part of the fabric of
(13:31):
the Yes. Great. And the Higgs field is different from
all the other fields we've ever discovered, right, because it's
the one that um makes things have mass. Yeah, it's
the one that makes things have mass. But that's not
the only weird reason that it's different. It's different than
the other fields because it's the only one that can't
(13:51):
ever totally relax like it's it's a little tense, it's
a little like worked up. You know, it needs a
quantum fields, is what you're saying. I can't really the
Higgs field can't chill, right, And we talked about this
also in other episodes, like can space ever be empty?
Because you imagine some like block of space out there,
what's in it? Well, there are quantum fields, and those
(14:12):
quantum fields mostly are relaxed. Like if there's no light
in that block of space, then you imagine the electromagnetic
field in that block of space is sort of at
its lowest level. Right, It's as empty as possible. And
you can argue philosophically about whether it can actually get
to zero, whether there are quantum fluctuations around zero, but
on average it's zero. So most fields can get down
(14:32):
to zero. Okay, So you're saying that Higgs field is
sort of um maybe um un stable, Like there's a
certain buzz about it, like it's it's it's not it's
not chowing out, it's like it's on a ten state. Yeah,
And so there's two questions there is is it at zero?
And is its stable? Right? So the Higgs field is
not at zero like the lowest level of the Higgs
(14:54):
field all the way through the universe, that every part
in space is not at zero energy. It's sort of
stuck at the This decision has this internal tension to
it that makes it like to hang out at a
place that's not at zero. And if you think that's weird,
how can something relax when it's not a zero Imagine
like a lake in a mountain, right, water likes to
flow down, but sometimes he gets stuck. Right, The configuration
(15:17):
of the mountains around it means that water relaxes in
the top of a mountain. You would like to flow
down to the sea if it could get there, but
it's happy to just stay there stably for a long time.
In a mountain lake, you say, like an alledge, like
you're happy on a ledge. You could go down further
to relax, but that would be effort to get out
of your ledge. That's right, exactly, you have to go
(15:37):
up first, right, So the Higgs field relaxes and it
gets stuck in this local minimum, which is above zero energy.
So the Higgs field is different from all the other
fields in the universe, and that when it relaxes, he
gets stuck in this sort of local minimum, doesn't go
all the way down to zero. It's called a vacuum
expectation value. And it's fascinating issue with that name. Also,
(15:58):
and that's the reason why I, the W and the
z boson have mass and the photon doesn't, because the
Higgs has a non zero vacuum expectation value. And so
and that's the clue that generated the whole idea of
the Higgs. People like, this is really weird. Why does
this thing massive? This thing not? How could you explain that, Well,
you'd have to have some really weird field that couldn't
relax to zero. That was the genesis of the whole idea.
(16:21):
That's why we thought of the Higgs. That's the thing
about it that gave us the clue to discover it
right to like explain the particles that we see. We
need um to come up with a field that can't relax. Yeah, exactly,
it suck and you went out and you found it.
Then that's where the Higgs boson comes from. Me. It's
like the manifestation of the field. It's evidence of the
(16:42):
field exists. It's evidence of the field exists because the
field could also go up. Right, it doesn't just have
to stay at at the lowest but non zero value.
It can go up and when it gets excited, because
you create energy density in one spot, you can create
a Higgs boson temporarily. So the Higgs boson, as you say,
is evidence that the field exists. All right. So that's
the Higgs field, And you're telling me that there's something
(17:02):
about its inability to relax that might cause the universe
two destroy itself, to disappear. Yes, And I'm loving your
use of the passive voice there the universe to destroy itself.
I'd rather than Daniel destroys. Well, you are the universe
to me, Daniels, we are all one, We are all
the universe. Well, let's get into how that can cause
(17:24):
the universe. How Daniel can call it the universe to destroy,
to be destroyed. Better give me what I want or
I'll destroy the universe. So you've given me a lot
of power here. We're gonna have some discussions here, but
first let's take a quick break, all right, Daniel, we're
(17:51):
talking about the Higgs field and the Higgs boson, and
you're telling me that it's something that is kind of
embedded in the fabric of the universe and gives things mass,
but it's sort of not maybe stable. It's like maybe
at a sort of heightened, kind of buzzy tense state. Yeah,
And we don't know very precisely sort of what the
shape of this mountain that it's resting in. Like, we
(18:12):
know that it's in a place that's stay somewhat stable
because it's been sticking around and you know, things have
been going on for a long time. We don't think
in the last billion years the physics has changed fundamentally, um, right, So,
but we don't have we don't have enough precise measurements
about sort of parameters of the universe to know exactly
the shape of that mountain. So it could be that
it's in a really pretty stable spot. I mean, it
(18:34):
might still be stuck up on a ledge. But it
might be the the sort of the edges of that lag,
the lip of that ledge that it would have to
go over to get down to the bottom, are really
tall and sharp, in which case it's basically never going
to get out of it, Like it's a lake surrounded
by really really tall mountains, and so there's no way
that water is going to come down to the ocean.
That's right. That's one scenario, right, Or it might be
(18:56):
that sort of meta stable that like there's a part
of that edge that's a kind of shallow and not
very tall, and it might sort of like slop over
the edge and flow down to the ocean. And so
we're trying to figure that out. Oh, I see, it's
not in your equation models. It's in the models, and
but there's uncertainty, right, the shape of that sort of potential,
(19:17):
which is defined by various other pieces of knowledge, like
the mass of the top cork and the mass of
the w boson. We measure those things, and we measure
them pretty precisely. And the funny thing is that it
puts the shape it's like ride on the edge, like
on our current level of knowledge, this Higgs field is
like very close to the edge between being stable and
being meta stable, so we're not exactly sure, right, It's like, wait,
(19:42):
what's the difference between stable and meta stable? Stable would
mean like the lip is high enough that's never going
to get out, and metal stables like it got stuck
there for a while, but it's gonna eventually bounce out
to go down to the ocean. Oh, I see, not
super stable. Not super stable. So we don't know very
precisely the shape of that lip, and so we can
can't really say with great confidence how stable it is. Okay, So, um,
(20:05):
I guess the question is, um, what would happen if
the Higgs field gets out of this pseudo stable state.
That's when you're saying bad news might happen, the ultimate
bad news, the ultimately bad news. And you might be thinking,
I didn't even really know the Higgs boson existed. I
didn't really think about it. I don't care. Why should
(20:25):
that affect me at all? Right, I never use Higgs bosons.
I don't buy them at the store. The price is
not going to change. But remember that this field underlies
basically everything. I mean, the fact that the Higgs boson
has the minimum it does, which is above zero. Is
the reason why ws and zs have mass, and it's
the reason that all the fundamental particles have the mass
(20:46):
they do. Right. So, for example, so if anything, basically
you're saying that, if anything changes about it, we would
have a totally different universe. We would have a totally
different universe with different basically different laws of physics. For example,
I would weigh less. Possibly you wouldn't even really exist anymore.
I mean, all your particles, all the masses of all
(21:08):
the particles would change, so the electron would have a
different mass, would have a different mass, Like we don't
even know in that case, if corks could confine into
stable particles, or if they would be free so we
have protons, we don't know if we'd have stable atoms.
The strengths of the forces would change, because if the
W and Z aren't massless, all of a sudden, the
weak force not so weak anymore. Well, it would be
(21:30):
a totally different universe. But I mean, it wouldn't be
better or worse, would just be different. We wouldn't be
in it. It would be if somebody could argue that
that's worse, I'm pretty sure that for us, But but
what about for the Horian Daniel and that orhand Daniel prime.
They would probably they're waiting to get on the stage.
(21:51):
They're lighter, they're probably you know, more electric. I don't know. No,
you basically start from zero and build the universe up again,
and you have totally different I mean, it's not like
we're changing this beat of light, right. Um, we're not
changing the universe in that's in the multiverse sense. We're
like picking totally new laws. But the parameters are changing.
The masses are changing, which affects everything downstream. Right, how
(22:12):
things come together, how they form bonds, how they make atoms. Um,
everything would be totally different, right, the fabric would would
you're saying the fabric of the universe would unravel or
would just change where it's a totally different cardigan. It
would be a totally we don't even know if you
could make a card again, right, Like what could you?
I mean, it would be very hard to go from
(22:34):
here's the description of the fundamental nature of the universe
as we have it now and then predict chemistry and
biology and like that would be hard, you know, yeah, currently,
and so to say let's change those laws and then
try to understand what the universe would look like. That's
a hard problem. We know it would look totally different, right,
so it would be dramatic. Is the Higgs boson the
(22:54):
Higgs field change and you're saying it is, And we
don't know if it's possible, if the Higgs yield can change,
but there is sort of that possibility that it could,
you know, um, jump out of those mountains and flow
down to the ocean and then and when we would
have a totally different Cardigan List universe. Yeah, exactly, everything
that we know about the universe would be different. And
(23:15):
that does seem like kind of a big deal. And
you know, we made these measurements, were trying to understand it.
We're trying to make better measurements to get a better
sense of how stable this is. Right, And also there's
the possibility that we just don't understand physics correctly. This
is our current model pusiness, and it could be wrong.
So it could be that like, hey, you know, there's
some other physics that's preventing this from happening. And in
(23:38):
a new theory of physics that better describes the universe,
the Higgs is totally stable and this couldn't happen. But
in our current understanding, the Higgs is not guaranteed to
stay in its state, right, and you're saying that possibly
maybe some of the things you're doing at the l
C could maybe accidentally cause that change. What what do you?
What do you? What are you trying to warn is about? Daniel?
(23:59):
I'm uncomfortable with your changed to the active voice. Here.
Can we return to the past, but Daniel and assume
responsibility for what happens? Well, in the scenario where the
Higgs field is not totally stable, it's meta stable, then
you could ask, like, what could get it over that
edge and down to the ocean to change the universe
into a totally different Cardigan List universe right, without any
(24:20):
bananas or anything. And we don't really know, but there
are some ideas, right. Idea number one is what about
random fluctuation? You know, we talked about, you know, quantum tunneling.
You know, we talked about electrons in potential wells and
there trapped because they can't go over the lip. But
we talked about how they could get through, right, and
they could tunnel through that barrier. This is sort of
like water teleporting out of that lake and then flowing
(24:42):
down the mountain. That's possible. And like the field itself
could in some points in the universe um change, but
then it would change back at one point in the
universe would change. And the thing is if it changes
at one point, then it sort of nucleates and it
triggers this threshold where it makes this stuff around it unstable.
So if any point in the universe UM does this,
(25:05):
it spreads out sort of at the speed of light
and spreads out across the universe, sort of like a
water balloon. Right once you pop it in one spot,
the rest of the spot is not going to hold
the water. It's gone. Like if you get a little
bit of the fields to relax, then that spreads like
it holds the rest of the fields to relax. How
(25:25):
do you know that? That's just what the math tells us.
You know that these would spread, It would spread, yeah, um,
And so you sort of kind of got to keep
the field stable everywhere all the time, which is the
kind of thing that makes me a little bit terrified.
But the chance of this kind of tunneling, we've done
the calculation, the chances of this kind of telling are
very very small. According to our current understanding, it should
(25:48):
happen once in about ten to the one hundred and
thirty nine years ten with hundred and thirty nine zeros,
which is a lot of zeros. Remember the universe's current
age is ten to the ten years, so it's it's
a very very long time, which means it's basically never
going to happen. So that's not something to worry about. Well,
let's talk about kind of what would happen if it happened.
(26:11):
So you're saying that maybe something might cause it or someone,
which we'll talk about next. Alien physicist, that's Alian Daniel
Cardian worrying Alien Daniel. Um, why isn't it alien? Maybe
the alien version of you as the physicist and I'm
the cartoonist, in which case it wouldn't happen because you know,
all horries are responsible, and it was responsible that was
(26:35):
on deadline. At least they show up for the podcast.
This is all I can say. Um, But so, um,
let's say we did something here and it started to
relax here on Earth, Like, what would happen, like the
universe would collapse in at that point? Would it just
be like a black hole? Expanding. What what the field?
(26:57):
The field us through the Michael Baine movie in which
this happens. That's the movie. Um no, you the field collapses,
So physics changes at that point, and in the field
around it collapses. In the field around it collapses, And
so what's happening is that the laws of physics of
the universe are not fixed. They would change as the
(27:18):
field changes. Right, So, so like point one seconds into it,
I had paused on my Blu ray player. What am
I seeing in the special effects shot there? You know,
I have no idea what this new form of the
universe would look like, right, Like you know, what would
how would light travel? What kind of other things would move?
I have no conception of what it would be like
to be in that universe, sort of new universe like
(27:42):
zero state, Higgs field universe would spread at the speed
of light. You get this pocket which grows and grows
and grows, And I have no idea what would be
like to be in that movie, like gas to spread
at the speed of light, it spreads at the speed
of light. Yeah, okay, so it would be a quick
death for us, Yes, that's right. You wouldn't have time
to panic and you can start panicking now pre panic.
I'm Jewish, so I know that panicking actually works. Right,
(28:03):
Worrying helps things the universe response to your aura of panic.
It's the only thing think that can violate causality. Actually,
if you worry now, worry it can change things that
have already happened. Um, yeah, exactly. And one thing people
worry about is maybe some very high density event I
(28:23):
don't know, like colliding protons that near the speed of
light might trigger my sort of like give enough energy
to this thing that it slops over the edge and
and gets out of this meta stable region zero. So
if it happened here on Earth, I mean in a
flash of light, basically we would be gone. Yeah, and
we would in our place a totally be totally different
(28:46):
universe that starts from scratch. You think, like you'd be
like they're a big bang or something. I mean, still
so our universe, but it's like the next version of it, right,
Like bangs field is now a different state, and so
physics is different, and so everything is different. It might
be really boring univer verse, or might be really fascinating
complex in the way that ours is. Right, it might
even be more rich, like maybe you can do all
sorts of crazy new kinds of physics we never imagined.
(29:08):
But you know, our brains rely on this kind of physics,
and so we couldn't really exist in that universe, you know,
so we wouldn't ever really enjoy it. Um. But you
know the same argument that suggests that we are not
in danger of creating black holes that eat eat up
the Earth, right, that similar collisions happen all the time
and have not created black holes, That same argument can
(29:30):
be applied here. All right, let's let's get into how
physics may or may not cause this Michael bay movie
to be become a reality that destroys reality. But first
let's take another quick break. All right, So Daniel um
(29:59):
steps three, How are are you going to destroy the universe? Well,
first I'm gonna get a consulting fee from Michael Bay. Um,
I want I want a writing credit on the script.
Oh yeah, how much is that going to be worth
when the universe no longer exists? Like, is it possible
that as you're when you're colliding particles and and you know,
creating many black holes that evaporate, but you know, in
(30:21):
that sort of high energy collision, could you maybe trigger
the Higgs field to start collapsing or not. And again, remember, folks,
this is a theoretical concern. We don't know if this
is real. Just sort of like we've done this calculation,
we noticed this thing makes us wonder. Um, so there
is the the sort of theoretical possibility that a high
(30:42):
energy density event like that might trigger the Higgs field
to relax into it's a true vacuum. But we have
those kind of collisions all the time. It's the same
argument that makes us feel safe about black holes also
makes us feel pretty confident about the Higgs field collapsing
because protons are hit protons in the atmosphere all the time.
Remember at the same energy that you're doing it at
(31:04):
the l YES and and at much higher energies. Remember
that we have these crazy particles from space, cosmic rays
that hit the atmosphere thousands of times the energy of
collisions at the LHC. Really, and it's been doing that
for billions of years. You're saying that if I look
up in the sky out into space or at least
or atmosphere, there are you know, there's like a thousand
(31:25):
LHC's up there doing things that are much worse than
what you guys are doing. Yeah, and remember, we don't
know what's creating those particles. Is like another great mystery
the universe is like what or who is creating these
super high endured particles. But they are hitting the Earth
and they've been doing it a lot. There's millions of
them every year at much higher energies in the LHC.
So if if there was a pretty good chance that
(31:48):
one of those collisions would nucleate a relaxation at the
Higgs field which spread at the speed of light, we're
pretty sure what happened already, and we're pretty sure we're
not increasing the danger by doing our little, tiny, dinky
collisions in a relative to the alien ELC. I feel
like you're telling me, like, look, everyone's vaping. If you vape,
I'm sure if I vape, I'm sure that nothing bad
(32:11):
will happen. Yeah. Look, they you know, they set off
a nuclear bomb and they didn't even the atmosphere, so
I'm sure ours won't be here you're saying. I think
you're saying that, Uh, the evidence tells you that this
is super low probability or maybe even impossible, because you know,
there's l C is happening in the sky all the time,
and I'm sure in other planets as well, all across
(32:34):
the universe. And we are still here. We are still here. Yes,
if you were listening to this podcast, then we have
not yet destroyed the universe. Well that's good. That stop
that you freak out, all right. So, um, So that's
the question is is will the Higgs boson destroyed the universe?
(32:56):
You're saying it's theoretically possible. Um, but so far, so good.
That's right, And I wouldn't fold it into your plans.
It's more of an intellectual curiosity. It's one of these
things where we've learned something totally new about the universe, right,
that this is weird field out there that has a
little bit of tension in it, and that tension is
what gives our universe. It's particular flavor that we're used to.
(33:18):
And so we've learned that about the universe. And so
we've learned sort of that we're like fluiding on this magma, right,
that are maybe our lives are more precarious than we thought.
On the other hand, the Earth's been around a long time, right,
And while there are a few volcanic eruptions now and
then people get gobbled by lava. Mostly you can go
round your the existence and not worry about sinking into
a lake of lava. And that's basically what you need
(33:40):
to do here, is not worry that the universe is
going to get destroyed by particle physicists or cartoons, or
if it does happen, it'll be over at the speed
of light, so why worry about that. It won't be
painful either way. Yeah. Also, just as a reminder that
if you are curious to know the universe has ended,
there's always a website you can check, right, Daniel, That's right,
(34:00):
it's u has the LHC destroyed the world yet? Dot com?
And it's always kept up to date, we promise. All right, Well,
I think it all points to again, just the idea
of how precarious our universe is. You know, how lucky
and how amazing it is if we are even here
able to talk about these things and explain him to
(34:21):
you guys out there. That's right. So you should enjoy
that ice cream, you should take a deep breath of
that fresh air. You should listen to your favorite podcast,
and you should enjoy the universe because we don't know
how long it will continue. Um but as we keep
learning more and more about the universe, we discover amazing,
crazy things about it, and some of those things a
little bit scary. So go out there and live life.
(34:44):
Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed that. See
you next time, and please don't destroy the universe before
the next podcast. What are you saying that to other
people or to yourself? That's sort of a mental note,
I feel stick you on your chest there wait until
the next podcast, But I think it applies generally, so
(35:05):
I think it's good advice for everyone to follow. Before
you still have a question after listening to all these explanations,
please drop us a line. We'd love to hear from you.
You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at
Daniel and Jorge That's one word, or email us at
(35:28):
Feedback at Daniel and Jorge dot com. Thanks for listening,
and remember that. Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is
a production of I Heart Radio. More podcast from my
Heart Radio visit the I Heart Radio Apple podcasts or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Yeah,
Hey, Daniel, I know you're probably sick of talking about this.
What's coming? Are you sure the LHC, the large Hatron
collider that you work on, is not going to destroy
the planet Earth for the last time. There's no chance
that the LHC will create a black hole that then
gobbles up the Earth, not even a little You're not worried,
(00:29):
even a little bit, like it's not even a possibility.
The thing is, we don't worry about small things like
destroying the Earth. It gets particle physicists worried is things
like destroying the entire universe. Hi. I'm more hammy cartoonist
(00:57):
and the creator of PhD comics. Hi. I'm Daniel Whitson.
I'm a particle physicist. I have not yet destroyed the
universe yet. Is how you introduce yourself every time? Hi
am Daniel. I have not yet destroyed all of existence.
That's right, and that's true about everybody. And if you're
listening to this podcast, and that is proof that the
universe still exists, that's right. Our word, every word we
(01:20):
speak should be a word of comfort that the universe
is still at least where you are still happening. That's right,
and always somebody's Internet goes out, they're going to think
the universe's ending, right, what's going on? That's why somebody's
listening to usn't it? That's right? But if folks remember,
a WiFi interruption is not the end of the universe.
(01:40):
You will survive. It's the end at the end of
my universe, Daniel. If somebody's WiFi goes out, do we
stop existing because they don't hear it anymore? Well, we
got deep in the philosophy all of us. Oh my goodness, Well,
welcome to our podcast. Daniel and Jorge. Do not destroy
the universe yet, or at least explain how we're not
destroying the universe. A production of I Heart Radio. That's right,
(02:02):
our podcast in which we think about things big and small.
We explore the universe. We find the craziest, most mind
blowing facts, and we explain them to you in a
way that makes you chuckle a little bit and also
come away with some deep understanding of your context of
your existence. And sometimes we talk about the really small
things that can maybe destroy the really big things in
(02:23):
the universe. One of my favorite things about physics is
when you learn something new and you discover Wow, the
universe is like a little more fragile than I thought.
What do you mean, well, like, how old were you
or what did you think the first time you learned that,
Like the Earth that we live on is just this
like thin crust of rock floating on a massive ocean
(02:43):
of lava. Right, all of a sudden, there doesn't feel
so stable to me. Right, wow, I think I learned
that just now, Daniel. Thank you for totally giving me
anxieties now, or that I hadn't been enough before, or
like that our atmosphere, right is this very thin shell
of gas surrounding a huge planet. It could easily just
get like blown away by some cataclysmic you know, solar
(03:06):
flare or something. Wow. Um, I hadn't thought about those things,
but thank you. Yeah. So, sometimes you learn something about
the university gives you context. It helps you understand that
our situation here is maybe an accident or is the
product of the particular arrangements of things, and and so
physics tells you like what's stable about the universe, what's
(03:26):
dangerous about the universe, what you should worry about, and
what you shouldn't worry about. Yeah, so it's not just
the Earth that is sort of in a precarious balance.
It's also I mean, you're you're saying it's also reality itself. Possibly, Yeah,
you know, as we peel back layers of reality, you
understand how the universe works. Sometimes we discover things like, oh, well,
this seems to be sort of an accident, you know,
(03:48):
and we never know whether things really are an accident
or whether it's due to some sort of deeper understanding.
Like something we've talked about before is the relationship between
like the electron and the proton, Right, the charge of
those two particles exactly balanced, which means we can have
hydrogen atoms and chemistry and physics and bananas and all
sorts of good stuff. We don't know if that's an accident, right,
(04:08):
We don't know why that's that way. It's essential for
life to happen, but we don't know if it's that
way for a reason or if it's a coincidence. And
so sometimes we stumble across other things like that that
seems essential for life to be the way we wanted,
but maybe accidental and may also not be permanent. Yeah,
and so one of those things is something that you
might be familiar with. We're hoping if you're a listener
(04:30):
of our podcast, and so today on the program, we
will be asking the question will the Higgs boson destroy
the universe? And I like the way you phrase that
because it means if the universe does get destroyed, it's
the Higgs Boson's fault. Our particle physicist is going to
(04:50):
destroy the Blame it on the boson. Oh, I'm sorry,
I meant um, I meant to blame you. Daniel Whiteson
going to destroy the universe. Now I hear government agents
knocking on my door on your podcast from my Heart Radio,
Daniel Moore destroyed the universe. Yeah, so this is a
question that I think it was all over the news
(05:11):
back when they were looking for the Higgs boson. Everyone
was worried and concerned that that you guys in Geneva
at cern we're maybe gonna do something in your experiment
that was going to cause our demise of the Earth,
Like maybe you were gonna unlock something in the universe
that was going to swallow us all up and destroy
the planet. That's right, This sort of two totally different
(05:34):
but both devastating concerns. Right. One is when you collide
to protons, could you trigger really strong gravity and make
microscopic black hole which could then eat stuff around it
and grow and eat the whole earth. Yeah, that's what
That's what people were. People were trying to shut you down. Yeah,
people sued the LHC. There was like court cases. We
have to like prove in court if this is something
reasonable to do. And for those of you suddenly worried
(05:57):
out there, there's no danger. These kind of collisions that
we do the LHC happen all the time. Particles from
space hit the Earth and hit the Sun, and they
do not create black holes that gobble the Earth. So
we are feel like that that's a thin excuse. Daniel.
You're like, look, everyone else around this has nuclear bombs,
so therefore we should be able to tinker with one,
(06:18):
no problem. Well, you know, actually when people set off
the first nuclear bomb, they were worried, right they were
where they might ignite the atmosphere and that was a
serious concern, but they did it anyway. But now that
they've done it, we know pretty well that blowing up
a nuclear bomb doesn't ignite the atmosphere. Well, I think
they did it in secret. That was the key. You
guys were doing it in the public public eye. I
(06:38):
always wonder like, did the physicists tell the government agents
that that was a risk. You know, they have to
fill out a form, you know, like, oh, if you're
going to potentially ignite the atmosphere, please fill out this form,
Please fill out this r IB. That's right. Yeah, But
so that's a concern number one, which is not something
worry about. We thought about the physics. We are not
going to create a black hole which destroys the Earth.
(06:59):
We might a black hole, but it would evaporate very rapidly.
I think it's all sorts of fascinating insights about the universe. Right,
So you're saying the atmosphere creates black holes all the time.
It's not that different than what you do. And even
if you do make one, it's going to evaporate. That's right,
because these tiny black holes will disappear, they'll evaporate because
they'll radiate away very quickly. That's the theory at least.
And you're you're pretty sure about that. I'm pretty sure
(07:21):
about that. Yes. I mean, my family lives on Earth,
so I'm risking my family by keeping the l e
C running. And I'm pretty confident well, I've seen you
say that you would risk a lot to answer answer
is about the universe? That's true, Yeah, I would sacrifice
a good fraction of humanity. You get to talk to aliens,
but not my family fraction. Which fraction to be talking about.
(07:44):
But there's a totally separate concern about whether or not
the Earth will get destroyed, but actually whether we could
trigger a cataclysmic event which fundamentally changes the nature of
the universe. So it involved the Higgs boson. And so
you're telling me the Higgs boson might destroy the universe?
Is this something that everyone knows? Do you think there
was some press about it a while ago? But I
(08:06):
was curious, like, are people worried that the Higgs boson
might destroy the universe? Do people even remember what the
Higgs is? Because it's been a little while since I
got pressed, and you know, stuff has happened since then. Um,
And so I was curious, do everyday people worry about
whether I'm going to ruin the universe? So I've run
out and asked them. So, as usual, Daniel went out
(08:26):
and asked people on the street if if they think
the Higgs boson will destroy the universe. So think about
it for a second. If you have maybe heard of
this news item, or if you have thought about the
Higgs boson and the precariousness of nature, think about it
for a second. What would you answer if you were asked,
will the Higgs boson destroy the universe? Here's what people
(08:47):
had to say. Do you worry about the Higgs boson
destroying the universe? I don't have anything to back that up. No,
I don't worry about yet. Maybe because the unknown. Have
you ever heard of the Higgs boson? Me on? Real
dumb right now? I have a lot of existential warries,
but not that one um nowadays. Okay, the last name
(09:09):
Higgs sounds familiar, but now alright, So people don't seem
very concerned. I think it sounds like mostly out of
because they didn't know that the Higgs boson could destroy
the universe. No, and a lot of people hadn't even
heard of the Higgs boson, which may felt like physics
has relaxed too much. We had our big thing with
the Higgs boson. We gotta get back in the news
because he gets forgotten us get on that branding. That's right,
(09:33):
Where is the PR Department? I gotta talk to them. Now.
People weren't really very familiar with the Higgs, and nobody
was worried that the Higgs boson would destroy the universe,
at least until I asked them this question. And then
they started googling it, and now maybe they're a little worried.
So okay, so you're telling me, Daniel that the Higgs,
something about the Higgs boson could potentially destroy the universe.
So let's let's let's step through it. First of all, um,
(09:56):
let's maybe recap for our listeners what the Higgs boson is. Yeah,
so the Higgs boson is a particle we discovered at
the LHC in twelve. It's the last particle ever found
so far, and it completes the standard model and it
answered a really interesting question, which is where does mass
come from? We talked on this podcast what is a particle?
And we think of them as these little dots in space,
(10:17):
but you have to ask, like, where is the mass
of the particle of something is a tiny dot? Where
does it get its mass? And it's not so much
about like where where does it come from or what
gets it's it's more like particles have this thing and
it's more like how does how does it manifest itself
in the universe, Like, how do we what gives you
that feeling of mass? Yeah, and it's also a question
(10:37):
of patterns, like we look at all the particles and
they all have different masses. You know, this one is
a lot, this one is a little, but they're all
the same size, so it's not like they have more
stuff to them. So we're wondering, like, why do these
particles have this mass and this particle of the other mass.
For example, we talked on another podcast about the weak
nuclear force and electromagnetism, which are fundamentally the same thing,
(10:58):
but the weak nuclear force is really weak because the
particles that carry it have a lot of mass, and
the photon has no mass, which is why electromagnetism is
so powerful. So this is sort of the question that
led to the discovery of the Higgs, is why some
of these particles have mass and some of them don't.
What's the mechanism there? And it turns out the answer
is this Higgs field, this invisible thing that fills space
(11:22):
and interacts with some of these particles in different ways,
and the Higgs boson is a manifestation of that field,
Like when parts of that feel get really excited, that
appears as like a ripple in that field, which we
interpret as a Higgs boson. So there's two physical things,
the field and the boson itself, which is the particle, right,
and they were sort of discovered at different times, right,
(11:43):
Like people physicists came up with the idea of the
Higgs field first to kind of make all of the
equations in the universe work. Dude named Higgs, Yeah, that
makes sense. How do you feel about that naming choice there?
I feel like we could do better, to be honest.
I mean, Peter Haig, you know, he did this thing.
He did his thing, and he deserves it. But you know,
(12:04):
you might maybe call it the mass field. Would that
be a better name? Yeah? I think that would be hard,
to be more instructive, that would save you that explanation.
The thing that gives things mad. Just called the mass field,
massive field, the mass giving field, Yeah, dessert field. Would
you call it the desertion because that's what the that's
what people immediately associate, I'm sure, um so yeah. So
(12:27):
so it is that the whole universe is premiered by
this field, which is like, what would you describe a field?
It's just kind of like a It's just like an
aura of the out there, right, aura, Like I don't
know how would you describe a field to somebody? That's
a great question, man. The whole episode about what is
a quantum field? And a field is just um, it's
a physical thing has a value everywhere in space, like
(12:50):
an electric field, right, is strong here and weak there.
The gravitational field is strong here and weak there, and
kind of like an aura. I don't know what it is.
I mean I read about horrors and it's stronger here
or stronger around you kind of thing. Or you can
say an odor and odor is stronger here and not
so strong there. Um such a small difference between or
(13:10):
and order, that's right. But so a field is something
we imagine is everywhere in the universe and has a
different value at each location. Right, It's like part of
the fabric of the universe. And would that be a
good way to say it's like one of the things
that make up the universe. As long as you make
that hand gesterre when you say it, you know, that
makes it look all dramatic that our listeners can't see
then yes, I agree, it's part of the fabric of
(13:31):
the Yes. Great. And the Higgs field is different from
all the other fields we've ever discovered, right, because it's
the one that um makes things have mass. Yeah, it's
the one that makes things have mass. But that's not
the only weird reason that it's different. It's different than
the other fields because it's the only one that can't
(13:51):
ever totally relax like it's it's a little tense, it's
a little like worked up. You know, it needs a
quantum fields, is what you're saying. I can't really the
Higgs field can't chill, right, And we talked about this
also in other episodes, like can space ever be empty?
Because you imagine some like block of space out there,
what's in it? Well, there are quantum fields, and those
(14:12):
quantum fields mostly are relaxed. Like if there's no light
in that block of space, then you imagine the electromagnetic
field in that block of space is sort of at
its lowest level. Right, It's as empty as possible. And
you can argue philosophically about whether it can actually get
to zero, whether there are quantum fluctuations around zero, but
on average it's zero. So most fields can get down
(14:32):
to zero. Okay, So you're saying that Higgs field is
sort of um maybe um un stable, Like there's a
certain buzz about it, like it's it's it's not it's
not chowing out, it's like it's on a ten state. Yeah,
And so there's two questions there is is it at zero?
And is its stable? Right? So the Higgs field is
not at zero like the lowest level of the Higgs
(14:54):
field all the way through the universe, that every part
in space is not at zero energy. It's sort of
stuck at the This decision has this internal tension to
it that makes it like to hang out at a
place that's not at zero. And if you think that's weird,
how can something relax when it's not a zero Imagine
like a lake in a mountain, right, water likes to
flow down, but sometimes he gets stuck. Right, The configuration
(15:17):
of the mountains around it means that water relaxes in
the top of a mountain. You would like to flow
down to the sea if it could get there, but
it's happy to just stay there stably for a long time.
In a mountain lake, you say, like an alledge, like
you're happy on a ledge. You could go down further
to relax, but that would be effort to get out
of your ledge. That's right, exactly, you have to go
(15:37):
up first, right, So the Higgs field relaxes and it
gets stuck in this local minimum, which is above zero energy.
So the Higgs field is different from all the other
fields in the universe, and that when it relaxes, he
gets stuck in this sort of local minimum, doesn't go
all the way down to zero. It's called a vacuum
expectation value. And it's fascinating issue with that name. Also,
(15:58):
and that's the reason why I, the W and the
z boson have mass and the photon doesn't, because the
Higgs has a non zero vacuum expectation value. And so
and that's the clue that generated the whole idea of
the Higgs. People like, this is really weird. Why does
this thing massive? This thing not? How could you explain that, Well,
you'd have to have some really weird field that couldn't
relax to zero. That was the genesis of the whole idea.
(16:21):
That's why we thought of the Higgs. That's the thing
about it that gave us the clue to discover it
right to like explain the particles that we see. We
need um to come up with a field that can't relax. Yeah, exactly,
it suck and you went out and you found it.
Then that's where the Higgs boson comes from. Me. It's
like the manifestation of the field. It's evidence of the
(16:42):
field exists. It's evidence of the field exists because the
field could also go up. Right, it doesn't just have
to stay at at the lowest but non zero value.
It can go up and when it gets excited, because
you create energy density in one spot, you can create
a Higgs boson temporarily. So the Higgs boson, as you say,
is evidence that the field exists. All right. So that's
the Higgs field, And you're telling me that there's something
(17:02):
about its inability to relax that might cause the universe
two destroy itself, to disappear. Yes, And I'm loving your
use of the passive voice there the universe to destroy itself.
I'd rather than Daniel destroys. Well, you are the universe
to me, Daniels, we are all one, We are all
the universe. Well, let's get into how that can cause
(17:24):
the universe. How Daniel can call it the universe to destroy,
to be destroyed. Better give me what I want or
I'll destroy the universe. So you've given me a lot
of power here. We're gonna have some discussions here, but
first let's take a quick break, all right, Daniel, we're
(17:51):
talking about the Higgs field and the Higgs boson, and
you're telling me that it's something that is kind of
embedded in the fabric of the universe and gives things mass,
but it's sort of not maybe stable. It's like maybe
at a sort of heightened, kind of buzzy tense state. Yeah,
And we don't know very precisely sort of what the
shape of this mountain that it's resting in. Like, we
(18:12):
know that it's in a place that's stay somewhat stable
because it's been sticking around and you know, things have
been going on for a long time. We don't think
in the last billion years the physics has changed fundamentally, um, right, So,
but we don't have we don't have enough precise measurements
about sort of parameters of the universe to know exactly
the shape of that mountain. So it could be that
it's in a really pretty stable spot. I mean, it
(18:34):
might still be stuck up on a ledge. But it
might be the the sort of the edges of that lag,
the lip of that ledge that it would have to
go over to get down to the bottom, are really
tall and sharp, in which case it's basically never going
to get out of it, Like it's a lake surrounded
by really really tall mountains, and so there's no way
that water is going to come down to the ocean.
That's right. That's one scenario, right, Or it might be
(18:56):
that sort of meta stable that like there's a part
of that edge that's a kind of shallow and not
very tall, and it might sort of like slop over
the edge and flow down to the ocean. And so
we're trying to figure that out. Oh, I see, it's
not in your equation models. It's in the models, and
but there's uncertainty, right, the shape of that sort of potential,
(19:17):
which is defined by various other pieces of knowledge, like
the mass of the top cork and the mass of
the w boson. We measure those things, and we measure
them pretty precisely. And the funny thing is that it
puts the shape it's like ride on the edge, like
on our current level of knowledge, this Higgs field is
like very close to the edge between being stable and
being meta stable, so we're not exactly sure, right, It's like, wait,
(19:42):
what's the difference between stable and meta stable? Stable would
mean like the lip is high enough that's never going
to get out, and metal stables like it got stuck
there for a while, but it's gonna eventually bounce out
to go down to the ocean. Oh, I see, not
super stable. Not super stable. So we don't know very
precisely the shape of that lip, and so we can
can't really say with great confidence how stable it is. Okay, So, um,
(20:05):
I guess the question is, um, what would happen if
the Higgs field gets out of this pseudo stable state.
That's when you're saying bad news might happen, the ultimate
bad news, the ultimately bad news. And you might be thinking,
I didn't even really know the Higgs boson existed. I
didn't really think about it. I don't care. Why should
(20:25):
that affect me at all? Right, I never use Higgs bosons.
I don't buy them at the store. The price is
not going to change. But remember that this field underlies
basically everything. I mean, the fact that the Higgs boson
has the minimum it does, which is above zero. Is
the reason why ws and zs have mass, and it's
the reason that all the fundamental particles have the mass
(20:46):
they do. Right. So, for example, so if anything, basically
you're saying that, if anything changes about it, we would
have a totally different universe. We would have a totally
different universe with different basically different laws of physics. For example,
I would weigh less. Possibly you wouldn't even really exist anymore.
I mean, all your particles, all the masses of all
(21:08):
the particles would change, so the electron would have a
different mass, would have a different mass, Like we don't
even know in that case, if corks could confine into
stable particles, or if they would be free so we
have protons, we don't know if we'd have stable atoms.
The strengths of the forces would change, because if the
W and Z aren't massless, all of a sudden, the
weak force not so weak anymore. Well, it would be
(21:30):
a totally different universe. But I mean, it wouldn't be
better or worse, would just be different. We wouldn't be
in it. It would be if somebody could argue that
that's worse, I'm pretty sure that for us, But but
what about for the Horian Daniel and that orhand Daniel prime.
They would probably they're waiting to get on the stage.
(21:51):
They're lighter, they're probably you know, more electric. I don't know. No,
you basically start from zero and build the universe up again,
and you have totally different I mean, it's not like
we're changing this beat of light, right. Um, we're not
changing the universe in that's in the multiverse sense. We're
like picking totally new laws. But the parameters are changing.
The masses are changing, which affects everything downstream. Right, how
(22:12):
things come together, how they form bonds, how they make atoms. Um,
everything would be totally different, right, the fabric would would
you're saying the fabric of the universe would unravel or
would just change where it's a totally different cardigan. It
would be a totally we don't even know if you
could make a card again, right, Like what could you?
I mean, it would be very hard to go from
(22:34):
here's the description of the fundamental nature of the universe
as we have it now and then predict chemistry and
biology and like that would be hard, you know, yeah, currently,
and so to say let's change those laws and then
try to understand what the universe would look like. That's
a hard problem. We know it would look totally different, right,
so it would be dramatic. Is the Higgs boson the
(22:54):
Higgs field change and you're saying it is, And we
don't know if it's possible, if the Higgs yield can change,
but there is sort of that possibility that it could,
you know, um, jump out of those mountains and flow
down to the ocean and then and when we would
have a totally different Cardigan List universe. Yeah, exactly, everything
that we know about the universe would be different. And
(23:15):
that does seem like kind of a big deal. And
you know, we made these measurements, were trying to understand it.
We're trying to make better measurements to get a better
sense of how stable this is. Right, And also there's
the possibility that we just don't understand physics correctly. This
is our current model pusiness, and it could be wrong.
So it could be that like, hey, you know, there's
some other physics that's preventing this from happening. And in
(23:38):
a new theory of physics that better describes the universe,
the Higgs is totally stable and this couldn't happen. But
in our current understanding, the Higgs is not guaranteed to
stay in its state, right, and you're saying that possibly
maybe some of the things you're doing at the l
C could maybe accidentally cause that change. What what do you?
What do you? What are you trying to warn is about? Daniel?
(23:59):
I'm uncomfortable with your changed to the active voice. Here.
Can we return to the past, but Daniel and assume
responsibility for what happens? Well, in the scenario where the
Higgs field is not totally stable, it's meta stable, then
you could ask, like, what could get it over that
edge and down to the ocean to change the universe
into a totally different Cardigan List universe right, without any
(24:20):
bananas or anything. And we don't really know, but there
are some ideas, right. Idea number one is what about
random fluctuation? You know, we talked about, you know, quantum tunneling.
You know, we talked about electrons in potential wells and
there trapped because they can't go over the lip. But
we talked about how they could get through, right, and
they could tunnel through that barrier. This is sort of
like water teleporting out of that lake and then flowing
(24:42):
down the mountain. That's possible. And like the field itself
could in some points in the universe um change, but
then it would change back at one point in the
universe would change. And the thing is if it changes
at one point, then it sort of nucleates and it
triggers this threshold where it makes this stuff around it unstable.
So if any point in the universe UM does this,
(25:05):
it spreads out sort of at the speed of light
and spreads out across the universe, sort of like a
water balloon. Right once you pop it in one spot,
the rest of the spot is not going to hold
the water. It's gone. Like if you get a little
bit of the fields to relax, then that spreads like
it holds the rest of the fields to relax. How
(25:25):
do you know that? That's just what the math tells us.
You know that these would spread, It would spread, yeah, um,
And so you sort of kind of got to keep
the field stable everywhere all the time, which is the
kind of thing that makes me a little bit terrified.
But the chance of this kind of tunneling, we've done
the calculation, the chances of this kind of telling are
very very small. According to our current understanding, it should
(25:48):
happen once in about ten to the one hundred and
thirty nine years ten with hundred and thirty nine zeros,
which is a lot of zeros. Remember the universe's current
age is ten to the ten years, so it's it's
a very very long time, which means it's basically never
going to happen. So that's not something to worry about. Well,
let's talk about kind of what would happen if it happened.
(26:11):
So you're saying that maybe something might cause it or someone,
which we'll talk about next. Alien physicist, that's Alian Daniel
Cardian worrying Alien Daniel. Um, why isn't it alien? Maybe
the alien version of you as the physicist and I'm
the cartoonist, in which case it wouldn't happen because you know,
all horries are responsible, and it was responsible that was
(26:35):
on deadline. At least they show up for the podcast.
This is all I can say. Um, But so, um,
let's say we did something here and it started to
relax here on Earth, Like, what would happen, like the
universe would collapse in at that point? Would it just
be like a black hole? Expanding. What what the field?
(26:57):
The field us through the Michael Baine movie in which
this happens. That's the movie. Um no, you the field collapses,
So physics changes at that point, and in the field
around it collapses. In the field around it collapses, And
so what's happening is that the laws of physics of
the universe are not fixed. They would change as the
(27:18):
field changes. Right, So, so like point one seconds into it,
I had paused on my Blu ray player. What am
I seeing in the special effects shot there? You know,
I have no idea what this new form of the
universe would look like, right, Like you know, what would
how would light travel? What kind of other things would move?
I have no conception of what it would be like
to be in that universe, sort of new universe like
(27:42):
zero state, Higgs field universe would spread at the speed
of light. You get this pocket which grows and grows
and grows, And I have no idea what would be
like to be in that movie, like gas to spread
at the speed of light, it spreads at the speed
of light. Yeah, okay, so it would be a quick
death for us, Yes, that's right. You wouldn't have time
to panic and you can start panicking now pre panic.
I'm Jewish, so I know that panicking actually works. Right,
(28:03):
Worrying helps things the universe response to your aura of panic.
It's the only thing think that can violate causality. Actually,
if you worry now, worry it can change things that
have already happened. Um, yeah, exactly. And one thing people
worry about is maybe some very high density event I
(28:23):
don't know, like colliding protons that near the speed of
light might trigger my sort of like give enough energy
to this thing that it slops over the edge and
and gets out of this meta stable region zero. So
if it happened here on Earth, I mean in a
flash of light, basically we would be gone. Yeah, and
we would in our place a totally be totally different
(28:46):
universe that starts from scratch. You think, like you'd be
like they're a big bang or something. I mean, still
so our universe, but it's like the next version of it, right,
Like bangs field is now a different state, and so
physics is different, and so everything is different. It might
be really boring univer verse, or might be really fascinating
complex in the way that ours is. Right, it might
even be more rich, like maybe you can do all
sorts of crazy new kinds of physics we never imagined.
(29:08):
But you know, our brains rely on this kind of physics,
and so we couldn't really exist in that universe, you know,
so we wouldn't ever really enjoy it. Um. But you
know the same argument that suggests that we are not
in danger of creating black holes that eat eat up
the Earth, right, that similar collisions happen all the time
and have not created black holes, That same argument can
(29:30):
be applied here. All right, let's let's get into how
physics may or may not cause this Michael bay movie
to be become a reality that destroys reality. But first
let's take another quick break. All right, So Daniel um
(29:59):
steps three, How are are you going to destroy the universe? Well,
first I'm gonna get a consulting fee from Michael Bay. Um,
I want I want a writing credit on the script.
Oh yeah, how much is that going to be worth
when the universe no longer exists? Like, is it possible
that as you're when you're colliding particles and and you know,
creating many black holes that evaporate, but you know, in
(30:21):
that sort of high energy collision, could you maybe trigger
the Higgs field to start collapsing or not. And again, remember, folks,
this is a theoretical concern. We don't know if this
is real. Just sort of like we've done this calculation,
we noticed this thing makes us wonder. Um, so there
is the the sort of theoretical possibility that a high
(30:42):
energy density event like that might trigger the Higgs field
to relax into it's a true vacuum. But we have
those kind of collisions all the time. It's the same
argument that makes us feel safe about black holes also
makes us feel pretty confident about the Higgs field collapsing
because protons are hit protons in the atmosphere all the time.
Remember at the same energy that you're doing it at
(31:04):
the l YES and and at much higher energies. Remember
that we have these crazy particles from space, cosmic rays
that hit the atmosphere thousands of times the energy of
collisions at the LHC. Really, and it's been doing that
for billions of years. You're saying that if I look
up in the sky out into space or at least
or atmosphere, there are you know, there's like a thousand
(31:25):
LHC's up there doing things that are much worse than
what you guys are doing. Yeah, and remember, we don't
know what's creating those particles. Is like another great mystery
the universe is like what or who is creating these
super high endured particles. But they are hitting the Earth
and they've been doing it a lot. There's millions of
them every year at much higher energies in the LHC.
So if if there was a pretty good chance that
(31:48):
one of those collisions would nucleate a relaxation at the
Higgs field which spread at the speed of light, we're
pretty sure what happened already, and we're pretty sure we're
not increasing the danger by doing our little, tiny, dinky
collisions in a relative to the alien ELC. I feel
like you're telling me, like, look, everyone's vaping. If you vape,
I'm sure if I vape, I'm sure that nothing bad
(32:11):
will happen. Yeah. Look, they you know, they set off
a nuclear bomb and they didn't even the atmosphere, so
I'm sure ours won't be here you're saying. I think
you're saying that, Uh, the evidence tells you that this
is super low probability or maybe even impossible, because you know,
there's l C is happening in the sky all the time,
and I'm sure in other planets as well, all across
(32:34):
the universe. And we are still here. We are still here. Yes,
if you were listening to this podcast, then we have
not yet destroyed the universe. Well that's good. That stop
that you freak out, all right. So, um, So that's
the question is is will the Higgs boson destroyed the universe?
(32:56):
You're saying it's theoretically possible. Um, but so far, so good.
That's right, And I wouldn't fold it into your plans.
It's more of an intellectual curiosity. It's one of these
things where we've learned something totally new about the universe, right,
that this is weird field out there that has a
little bit of tension in it, and that tension is
what gives our universe. It's particular flavor that we're used to.
(33:18):
And so we've learned that about the universe. And so
we've learned sort of that we're like fluiding on this magma, right,
that are maybe our lives are more precarious than we thought.
On the other hand, the Earth's been around a long time, right,
And while there are a few volcanic eruptions now and
then people get gobbled by lava. Mostly you can go
round your the existence and not worry about sinking into
a lake of lava. And that's basically what you need
(33:40):
to do here, is not worry that the universe is
going to get destroyed by particle physicists or cartoons, or
if it does happen, it'll be over at the speed
of light, so why worry about that. It won't be
painful either way. Yeah. Also, just as a reminder that
if you are curious to know the universe has ended,
there's always a website you can check, right, Daniel, That's right,
(34:00):
it's u has the LHC destroyed the world yet? Dot com?
And it's always kept up to date, we promise. All right, Well,
I think it all points to again, just the idea
of how precarious our universe is. You know, how lucky
and how amazing it is if we are even here
able to talk about these things and explain him to
(34:21):
you guys out there. That's right. So you should enjoy
that ice cream, you should take a deep breath of
that fresh air. You should listen to your favorite podcast,
and you should enjoy the universe because we don't know
how long it will continue. Um but as we keep
learning more and more about the universe, we discover amazing,
crazy things about it, and some of those things a
little bit scary. So go out there and live life.
(34:44):
Thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed that. See
you next time, and please don't destroy the universe before
the next podcast. What are you saying that to other
people or to yourself? That's sort of a mental note,
I feel stick you on your chest there wait until
the next podcast, But I think it applies generally, so
(35:05):
I think it's good advice for everyone to follow. Before
you still have a question after listening to all these explanations,
please drop us a line. We'd love to hear from you.
You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram at
Daniel and Jorge That's one word, or email us at
(35:28):
Feedback at Daniel and Jorge dot com. Thanks for listening,
and remember that. Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is
a production of I Heart Radio. More podcast from my
Heart Radio visit the I Heart Radio Apple podcasts or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Yeah,
Hosts And Creators
Daniel Whiteson
Kelly Weinersmith
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