November 2, 2018 • 40 mins
Melissa faces Don Findlay - the son of Jesperson’s last victim. Why has he been living a double identity for so long? What does he know about Keith? And can he forgive a person he sees as an extension of the man who brutally murdered his mother?
Melissa G. Moore: IG @melissag.moore; Tik Tok @melissa.g.moore
Lauren Bright Pacheco: www.LaurenBrightPacheco.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Previously on Happy Face.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
How did Keith get away with it for so long?
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Laverne A.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Pavlanac is accused of four counts of aggravated murder, rape,
sex abuse, kidnapping, and felony murder for the death of
Tanya A.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Bennett.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Pavlanak fed police anonymous tips that led to the arrest
of her longtime boyfriend, John A.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Sasnovsky.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Laverne was trying to get rid of her boyfriend. She
convinced him by saying she had participated in the murder
with John Susnovskian.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
If it weren't for the anonymous letter, the case might
well have remained forgotten. Quote Honor about January twentieth, nineteen
ninety I picked up Sonia Bennett and took her home.
The name is Tanya, not Sonya Bennett, and she was
killed according to the experts who examined the body on
the night of January twenty first, not the twentieth.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Melissa and I reached out to Jim McNeely, a retired
detective from the Moltnomah County Sheriff's Department.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
He knew what he was talking about, and he had
information on those murders that hadn't been in the papers.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Jefferson kind of saw you as a partner in this.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
We were conspiring to prove that he was guilty.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
There's always been one person Melissa has been afraid to
meet the son of Jefferson's last victim, Don Findley. We
spoke for a couple of hours, and I was finally
able to convince him to meet you.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
And the vies in love vies with.
Speaker 6 (01:33):
I don't know, shine, oh.
Speaker 7 (01:40):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
There's an almost numbing quality to hearing Keith describe as crimes.
The details are almost too horrific to fully absorb. We
know the way he tied women up, how he beat
raped and stopped them from breathing, And yet some seem
more shocked to hear how he tortured a cat than
how many women's lives he took. But over a period
(02:16):
of five years from nineteen ninety to nineteen ninety five,
Keith murdered at least eight women. His last victim was
Julianne Winningham, But Keith Hunter jesperson, decimated countless lives beyond
the ones he took, including that of Julie's son, Don Fendley.
I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco, and this is happy face.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
From I The Creation of a Serial Killer by Jack Olson.
The morning after I killed Julie Winningham, my eighth victim,
I drove to Vancouver, Washington to get my driver's license renewed.
On my way, I thought about moving Julie's body farther
from the road, but I decided it was too much
bother I drove straight through to Baker City, Oregon, and
(03:08):
played a little cribbage. I made a few bucks and
hit on some of the women. I gave a couple
of Julie's old coats to a cute girl from Boise.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
So who is Don Findley and why are you so
afraid to meet him?
Speaker 8 (03:31):
Don Finley is the son of Julie Winningham, my father's
last victim. He was present the entire trial of his
mother's murder, and he faced my father in court. I
first heard about him by reading the Oregonian and his
statements in court. I instantly wanted to meet him decades ago,
(03:57):
and have made attempts to reach out to him and
been rejected. I had heard that he wanted to do
the things that my dad did to his.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Mom to me.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Where did you hear that from.
Speaker 8 (04:11):
A producer when I had the show Monster in My Family.
The whole premise of the show is to connect perpetrator's
family members with victims family members, and the number one
person I wanted to meet was done, so I had
a producer reach out to him, and that producer had
relayed the information to me that he he had thought
about that, that he thought about harming me in the
(04:34):
same fashion that my dad had harmed his mom, because.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
He wanted revenge by taking something from your dad. I
think that he he vilified you quite a bit, and
he thought that you had this perfect, wonderful life and
that you had never suffered because of the harm your
father had inflicted upon people. And I told him a
(04:59):
little bit about your work and about the fact that
you really wanted You've spent your entire adult life trying
to atone for your dad's crimes and sins. And I
think that he had never really looked at the ramifications
of your dad's actions on his family and his children.
Speaker 8 (05:22):
And so he decided he.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Was touch and go, but he said that he'd be
willing to try. I mean, he never gave me a
guarantee that he was actually going to show.
Speaker 8 (05:34):
Up My hope is that it's several things. Honestly, my
real hope is I just want to say I'm sorry.
I want him to know how sorry I am.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
For what my father did.
Speaker 8 (05:59):
It's just true, true sadness for what happened. And I
can't offer any restitution or bring his mom back, and
my sorrow for his mom's loss isn't enough. There's nothing
I could give him, but I definitely want him to
(06:21):
know how sorry I am. I think that's the best
I can offer. That's all I can offer.
Speaker 9 (06:34):
Let it happen.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Look at I mean this is the place he picked.
Speaker 8 (06:39):
I mean this is adorable.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Okay, so we're looking at the most adorable little seaside
cafe that's actually sitting on the water. And to get
there you have to walk on this kind of metal
grate that rocks back and forth. The cafe is this cheerful,
turquoise blue. It sits not by the water, but on
(07:03):
the water. I think it's gonna be an interesting meeting.
Speaker 8 (07:06):
He picked it, he picked this location. This feels very friendly.
I don't know, I'm.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Cheerful, it's peaceful.
Speaker 10 (07:15):
It's hard because.
Speaker 8 (07:16):
I'm because I don't know what I'm gonna walk into.
Speaker 10 (07:22):
Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. Walking on this it's
like walking on still.
Speaker 11 (07:33):
I'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Don asked that we not roll audio until after they'd
had a chance to meet.
Speaker 6 (07:39):
I think that's him. I think I think he's behind me.
This guy's arms crossed. I'm gonna turn turn my back
so I'm sweet can meet with Lauren. I'm glad Lauren's
meeting with him first. He he looks, he looks tense.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Hm.
Speaker 10 (08:03):
I like the location he picked.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I gestured for Melissa to come over, and she had
to cross this metal plank to get back from where
she was standing on the water to me. And Melissa
is shaking so hard that the entire thing is trembling
as she's walking because she's so nervous. And she walks
(08:31):
up to Don and without saying anything, he opens up
his arms and they embrace, and Melissa just starts sobbing.
It was one of the most beautiful moments I think
I've gotten to witness as a producer. There was such
(08:55):
a vulnerability and strength on both side of that hug,
and it's as if it ripped open a scab on
Melissa's soul. She just sobbed.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
God. It was.
Speaker 8 (09:16):
When he hugged me and just stretched his arms and
he hugged me, it felt like the wash of forgiveness
purified my heart, Like it just melted away my anxiety,
an anxiety that was interwoven in my fibers of my being.
(09:37):
Like I didn't realize how tense I've been walking my
life until he hugged me. And it was like this
relaxation and solace that I've never felt before. And it
was something that I thought I could seek in religion
and find that solace through a forgiveness of a loving God.
(09:59):
And to say, you know, but when Dawn hugged me,
it was like, all as well, the past is washed
away and I'm free. I'm forgiven and free to walk
my life as I need to walk.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
That was a lot.
Speaker 9 (10:19):
Yeah, if you're gonna do it, you gotta do it
right or don't do it at all.
Speaker 10 (10:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (10:24):
And it's got to.
Speaker 9 (10:24):
Come out girl, Sorry, And it's gonna be the hardest.
Speaker 12 (10:29):
Yeah, because this whole time.
Speaker 9 (10:31):
I can only imagine what your thoughts are sitting back.
Speaker 12 (10:34):
Like I said, I've put.
Speaker 9 (10:35):
Myself in your shoes and I can't imagine. But maybe
I am.
Speaker 8 (10:40):
The missing limb, and you know, I can't even put
myself in your shoes, like I don't even know. I
don't know how you did it. I don't know how
you are here like I.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
We settled into the cafe, but for more privacy, we
decided to head back outside to a quiet bench overlooking water, so.
Speaker 9 (11:06):
I'm in a better spot. More questions do you have first?
I mean, I'm sure you've been pondering.
Speaker 12 (11:13):
What I think.
Speaker 8 (11:15):
What I would like to know first is I briefly
met your mom. Okay, yeah, I'd like to whatever you
want to tell me about your mom.
Speaker 13 (11:27):
And well, my mom stayed here in campus with her
mom and was tossed between her dad, who lived in California,
where I was born and raised.
Speaker 12 (11:43):
She wasn't an educated woman.
Speaker 9 (11:45):
She was a very energetic, positive, adventurous walked her own path,
but because of her own education, she had to do
certain things to get by life. I mean back in
the day, she supposedly had married a truck driver just
(12:06):
as big as your father, but he was from Arkansas
and they got divorced. So my mom had me, and
she wasn't around a lot in my life because she
was on her own little journey and was scared of
the family who raised you. My dad's mom, my mom's
step mom, and my mom's dad.
Speaker 12 (12:30):
Why my dad worked all the time.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
What did he do?
Speaker 9 (12:34):
My dad was a regional manager for an auditing company and.
Speaker 12 (12:41):
They got divorced. Dad got custody.
Speaker 9 (12:44):
Mom wasn't around, and she traveled the United States and
liked to do her own thing. Everybody loved her. She
wasn't a drunk, She wasn't an alcoholic or drug addict.
Speaker 12 (13:00):
She uah.
Speaker 9 (13:02):
This is the stuff. The media don't know what I'm
about to tell you. No one knows this. I haven't
told anybody because they ask, but they don't. It's all
been about unfortunately, it's been about you and your father.
When these people tell me what they're promising me right,
I was under the influence that I'm supposed to help people,
(13:23):
but the little thirty second segments aren't long enough to
help people.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
One of the things Don wanted to clarify that he
believes the media got absolutely wrong was his mother, Julie's
relationship with Keith. As we know, Keith broke his rules
for Julie. It was the first time he'd killed someone
he dated and really knew In fact, when Keith introduced
Julie to Melissa or talked to Melissa about her, he'd
(13:51):
referred to Julie as his fiance. But Don takes issue
with this.
Speaker 12 (13:56):
My mom was living in Utah.
Speaker 9 (14:00):
I talked to her on February eleventh, because her birthday
was February twelfth, the mine was February twentieth. There was
no talk of your father. My mom was not in
a relationship. She was living with a girlfriend and a kid.
She was telling me that she was on her way
down here to Camus to visit with their mom. She
(14:21):
had met your father in nineteen ninety two prior, and
she knew how to work the truck stops because she
drove truck and did her thing, and he offered her
a ride. To hear, he must not have had any
pickups because they hung out in town for a couple
of weeks. Okay, they were not in a relationship.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
You can hear in Don's voice how angry he is
about the idea that Keith and his mother were ever together.
There is also a pain that comes from the constant
reminders of his mother. Everywhere he goes, he visits places
she frequented, and he drives past the scene of her
murder on a daily basis.
Speaker 12 (15:08):
Every day up my life since then, I tryed. I
have to try buy it every day I can. Fishing
in the beautiful.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Corse, I gotta drive right by it.
Speaker 12 (15:26):
I didn't run. I faced it head on.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
I kept crushing my heart.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
The long haul trucker told a Clark County Sheriff's Office
detective by phone that he strangled Julianne Winningham, forty one,
while raping her in the sleeper car of his rig
after gagging her with duct tape. Winningham's nude body was
found March eleventh, dumped down a bank of a viewpoint
along Highway fourteen in the Columbia River gor four miles
(16:01):
east of Wasshugle.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
The scenery wasn't the only reminder of his mother's murder,
so was his name. After his mom's death, Don changed
his name to Leroy. It's actually part of why he
was so difficult for me to track down. I had
to go through Leroy to get to Don. We asked
him a little bit about why he chose that name.
Speaker 9 (16:29):
I was living in San Diego, working at a car wash,
had friends in bands, and just living a fun life.
I was looking pot doing drugs. I was up for
three days. When I got the phone call at work,
I went ballistic. I pulled off kitchen sinks, punched the wood.
(16:54):
Then I walked home and I fell in the middle
of the main street and cried. So this is where
Leroy comes into play. I came up here for the trials.
I got a job telemarketing. They asked me if I
had a nickname. I said Leroy. They put Leroy up
on the board, so I started telling people my name
(17:17):
was Leroy, even though they're seeing me every day on
the news. I mean, not only did I not know anybody,
but I found a job and a place to live
to be able to see this to the end.
Speaker 12 (17:29):
My family was not there for me. No one's ever
asked me if I was okay.
Speaker 11 (17:33):
I want to know what happily you found out. You
came up here. Why did you have to go to
the Morgue.
Speaker 9 (17:38):
Well, the reason I had to go to the Morgue
was because my mom wasn't around a lot in my life,
and I had to physically see her that way to
know that she's dead, or otherwise I would still think
she's on a traveling around doing her thing because we
didn't talk that often.
Speaker 12 (17:56):
She wasn't around a lot.
Speaker 14 (17:58):
I'm going back to how you had to see your mom.
Speaker 12 (18:03):
I can't imagine.
Speaker 11 (18:04):
You you saw her after what? Yeah, I don't even
know what she looked like.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, I want to know.
Speaker 8 (18:12):
I want to know, sir, because you have to see it.
Speaker 14 (18:15):
I want to know what you saw.
Speaker 12 (18:20):
All right, Well, I show up. It's underneath the jail.
It's really like the movies.
Speaker 9 (18:28):
Long long, long, long, long long long. They open up
a room, white walls, silver table. My mom has a
sheet covered up to her neck. I see from her
face a mark from here to here. That's why, as
(18:51):
black as day's night, I see shrub marks on her
cheeks from where she rolled down through the berry briars.
Speaker 12 (19:00):
I also see.
Speaker 9 (19:04):
The top of my mom's head, just sitting on top
of her head because they did the aptosy on her brain,
so it was just.
Speaker 14 (19:14):
There.
Speaker 9 (19:20):
That's the last time I saw my mom.
Speaker 10 (19:27):
What are you do with those images?
Speaker 12 (19:31):
Mask them? They go away. She was such a beauty lady.
Speaker 15 (19:42):
He stuck his fist down my mother's throat to make
sure she was dead. Duck taped her, suffocated her, raped her,
carried him around in the cap of his truck, drove
up the mountain. She lost her like a fucking piece
of garbage, and the next time I see her she's
(20:03):
like that.
Speaker 7 (20:09):
I truly can't explain the anger and ate I've had
over the years towards this, but I've had. I had
to put it past me. I had to because otherwise
I'm not going to be happy, and I need to
be happy.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I was wearing just my shoes and a shirt when
I headed east. I knew she would wake up soon
and then she'd really no terror. I breaked hard at
a stop sign and heard her grunt. She tried to
get into the front passenger seat, but fell to the
floor and cut her forehead on the seat pedestal.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
A little pool of blood formed.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
I reached down and patted her on the back and said,
nice of you to join me, Julie, and stay there
until I stop up ahead, and then you'll find out
what's going to happen to you.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Melissa and Don had been wrestling with the past for
so long, trying to come to terms with its impact
on their lives, and they were both eager to share
their experiences.
Speaker 12 (21:30):
I don't know what you know, I don't know much,
but I don't know what you want to know.
Speaker 9 (21:37):
The Feds everybody, they figured out what trucking company he
worked for. And by the way, I see that trucking
company every day on the road. So you can imagine
my thoughts going through. You know, I see it too, Okay,
and it's got to be hard for us. So they
found out what trucking company he worked for. He was
on a run. He was going to go pick up
(21:58):
a load in New Mexico. Okay, okay, So they called Hani.
They said he's gonna be in New Mexico. The local
police went there with the FEDS because it's out of jurisdiction.
Speaker 12 (22:10):
Did the blood.
Speaker 9 (22:11):
Urine and something else sample for him? They have to
bring it back here to test it. Before they get back,
he calls and says he tried to kill.
Speaker 12 (22:23):
Himself by eating a bottle of Thailand. All they go back,
they arrest him, and the trials start.
Speaker 14 (22:33):
Yeah, the detectives came up to Spokane and they questioned
my mom and then they they didn't tell her anything.
Then she said, uh to my brother or sister, and
I that your dad's in jail. Then my brother's like
for what it is, she said, for murder.
Speaker 11 (22:56):
Just remember just feeling like this is this is not real?
Speaker 12 (22:59):
He had.
Speaker 11 (23:01):
I went to my uh my cot, laid down on him.
Did I just cried the whole night. He had wondered
who it was, what happened, how did it happen? And
he had a picture A million different things in my
head and I wanted answers. Nobody would just tell me.
(23:24):
I just wanted to know. And that's why I started
looking at the Orgonian and reading everything. And it was
hard to read it, but in a way it was
kind of a you know, a blessing in disguise, because
I don't know if I could have handled hearing it
from your words in real life. I think just reading
it there was a there was a state of removal,
(23:45):
you know, I was somewhat removed when I could read
from a distance what was happening over here and what
was happening with your life?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
This?
Speaker 9 (24:00):
Bra four? Pick a right, This is where it happened.
Speaker 12 (24:23):
What is this?
Speaker 9 (24:24):
This is the spot. It used to be an empty
lot until two years ago.
Speaker 10 (24:28):
I thought she was found on a roof.
Speaker 9 (24:30):
Hold on, I'll show you if you stop right here.
This was an empty lot, and his eighteen wheeler was
parked right here.
Speaker 12 (24:38):
Okay.
Speaker 9 (24:39):
The bar he was at is just not even at
the quarter of a mile up the road. My grandmother,
my mom's mom, lived three blocks up the road. So
his truck was parked here.
Speaker 12 (24:49):
Okay, this is where he.
Speaker 9 (24:52):
Did what he did to my mom right here in
this lot.
Speaker 10 (24:56):
With it was a parking.
Speaker 9 (24:57):
Lot, though, yeah, parking lot.
Speaker 11 (24:59):
You know.
Speaker 9 (24:59):
There was no store here, There was no nothing here.
His truck is right here. My mom comes from the
bar up the road. They talk about the money issue.
Speaker 10 (25:11):
He what was the money issue?
Speaker 14 (25:12):
What was she to me?
Speaker 10 (25:14):
Explain that to me.
Speaker 9 (25:16):
So basically, after listening to your father and saying how
one of the victims asked him for money after he
was already done with her, that reminded him of his
wife and that's what made him snap. And I remember
him saying this in one of his interviews. Well, my
(25:37):
mom went to the bartender and he was too busy.
My mom needed some money. Came to jessperson, your dad.
My mom had gotten into a car accident. Your dad's
signature was on the bill of sell, so my mom
came to town with him. They were hanging out. I'm
(25:57):
assuming my mom had a car. My mom was working.
Something happened. She went to your father for money, asking
him nicely because she wasn't a gold digger or anything,
and he snapped, where we're going next is on Highway fourteen.
He drove six miles out on Highway fourteen, pulled over
(26:21):
and threw her out without no rings or nothing, just
stark ass naked, and then came back, got his trailer
and drove off to New Mexico. But your dad, your
last freedom. Was your dad in this town for three weeks?
Speaker 12 (26:44):
Give her take.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Did your grandmother ever say that they were talking about
getting married again?
Speaker 9 (26:50):
My mom would have never got remarried. I know it
for a fact. That came up through your father. Cause
my mom, as you can see, she was a very
beautiful woman. She was a kind hearted, good soul. And
that's why your dad, you said, he broke every rule
that he ever had set for victims, that he was
going to do this too, right, My mom broke every
(27:11):
rule because of her soul, her heart. You know, he
felt something different with her.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
The truth when it comes to Keith is always in question.
Weeks later, Melissa still had doubts about the nature of
Julian Keith's relationship. Our producer Noel also made the trip
to Washington State to meet Don.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
This idea of Julie being his fiance kind of keeps
coming up, and it's sort of like been called in
the question a few different ways by her son. For example,
he Don right off the bat said that's not true.
But there's a lot of he said, she said stuff
in all of these tales. You kind of were skeptical
of that too.
Speaker 8 (28:08):
The only thing that makes me not skeptical of them
being together is the last time I saw my dad.
The last time I saw my dad was at a diner,
and he brought up that he was going to buy
me a car, a red Pontiac, and that he was
going to buy a house on the beach and that
Julie and him would live there and that I could
(28:29):
move in with him. And so the sense that he
was putting this future with Julie makes me think that
he saw something different in Julian, that he wanted to
settle down and get married.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
But do you remember what we discovered that that wasn't
his dream, that was her dream. Don kind of talked
about how this is something she always talked about wanting to.
Speaker 9 (28:52):
Have her son back with her living in the beautiful
places out in California, because my mom and him travel
from Utah to Hear and they knew each other prior,
so he knew her dream.
Speaker 10 (29:07):
So he was telling me your mom's dream.
Speaker 8 (29:09):
The last time I saw her. Her last words to
my dad or what about your kids? When she was
pleading for her life. And I know she was trying
to appeal to the man and not the monster. The
fact that she was saying that makes me, you know, obviously,
I know why she was pleading what about your children?
(29:30):
You know, to try to ground them back into hey,
you're a dad that.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
But she was and this is again this is your
father's version.
Speaker 8 (29:38):
Yeah, we don't know what her lasts really were.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
And in the Jackalsen book, your father claims that she
was saying, hey, wait, you know what about your children?
I was going to be basically their mother, And one
of his final insults to her is do you think
I would let you raise my kids? But she wasn't
(30:01):
good enough. But again, it's this ongoing theme that you've
pointed out that your dad has to degrade all of
his victims in some way, shape or form. That they
had it coming.
Speaker 8 (30:13):
Absolutely. So the truth is I don't know. What we
do know is that Julie was murdered by my dad.
Her title of fiancee or girlfriend or friend is not relevant, really, I.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Think, I mean, I think it's relevant in that it's
the one that he interacted with outside of just a
killer victim relationship, at least as far as what we know.
Speaker 8 (30:36):
Well, I know they were friends. I think that's what
they were friends for years, and that's what I think
haunts me more than the fiancee title, is that this
was a multi year relationship, not one of his fleeting
girlfriend situations or someone he barely knew. And if he
(30:56):
could do that to her, he could do that to anybody.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
From I the creation of a serial killer by Jack Olsen.
I said, you don't love me, Julie, you never have.
She sniffed and said, what about your children? I was
going to look after your kids.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I laughed.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
I said, you can't even look after yourself. How could
I trust you with my kids? I was thinking, how
do I keep running into these kind of women? All
this time? She's staring at me with tears in her eyes.
I removed the tape around her ankles, but I left
(31:46):
the tape on her arms so she couldn't go after
my eyes with her long fingernails.
Speaker 8 (31:54):
Uh oh, I want to ask what you don't have
to answer her phone?
Speaker 10 (31:57):
Okay, what were your mom's last time words?
Speaker 9 (32:01):
Was that said?
Speaker 12 (32:02):
No?
Speaker 9 (32:04):
Have you wondered that? I've never thought about that for
the simple fact of maybe that the fact that she
was duct tape and suffocated and didn't have a last word.
So I've never thought about what my mom's last thoughts
or words were. In my head, she asked him for
(32:24):
money and that made him snap, and that's how my
mom ended up dead. So that is my interpretation.
Speaker 10 (32:33):
My mom said something yesterday when he tries to shame
my mom by publishing their intimacy their sex life, and
I said to my mom, I'm like, doesn't that make
you feel victimized? You know, like that dad's doing this?
Speaker 16 (32:50):
And she said, well, it's not true, and I thought, yeah,
we only have his word for what happened because he
was the only par there and the person who did that.
Speaker 9 (33:02):
And so but I believe what he did to my
mom is true because of the way his actions and
his wording. And now, after you telling me how your
father is That's why he was supposed to so specific
in court. Yeah, I mean, can you imagine my rage
hearing this man say he stuck his fist down my
mom's throat to make sure she was dead.
Speaker 11 (33:24):
No, no.
Speaker 9 (33:27):
Cammage, and then I left her in the back of
my truck for eight to twelve hours before I disposed
of her body.
Speaker 10 (33:33):
So the autops had come from that.
Speaker 9 (33:43):
I came up here on an airplane and I went
to every bar across this whole city, all the way
looking for your father. Didn't know who did it because
they didn't know at this time, because this was less
than twenty four hours after finding my mom. I went
on a every bar. Who are you looking for? What
(34:04):
did you think you.
Speaker 11 (34:04):
Were looking for?
Speaker 9 (34:07):
Being one hundred percent real with you, I don't know.
I like I said, I literally had been up for
three days a day prior.
Speaker 10 (34:16):
You're just going in hoping that you would just see
somebody and they would you would know.
Speaker 9 (34:21):
I'm assuming I can't answer that question because it's so
long ago, you know what I mean. But I remember
one night in the beginning, singing karaoke Pat Benatar singing,
hit me with your best shot, like to the whole.
You know, hit me. Come on, bring it on. You
know what I mean. I'm facing this head on. You
know what I mean. You think you got something for me?
Bring it on, Bring it on, Bring it on.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Julie was found absolutely by chance, when a local resident
stopped to take a scenic picture by the winding roadside
where she'd been tossed, discovering her naked and beaten body.
Speaker 9 (35:02):
Imagine, so here comes a twenty one mile keep going. Oh,
I know it all.
Speaker 12 (35:10):
See that turnout right there?
Speaker 9 (35:12):
Come not this one, the next one, because you got
to think about it. He has an eighteen wheeler truck,
so he has that space to turn around right to
go back and get his trailer. Yeah, and if he
goes any farther, he's into this Comania County.
Speaker 12 (35:29):
So he pulls over right now.
Speaker 9 (35:33):
You got to understand, the hillside is twenty some years
different than it is now.
Speaker 12 (35:37):
So he pulls his truck over.
Speaker 9 (35:39):
This is where they found my mom's cigarette butts and stuff.
And so what he basically told me was after he
did all that, he opened up the door and threw
her down there like a rag doll, right down there.
Speaker 12 (35:54):
And if you look, let's.
Speaker 10 (35:56):
Go out there.
Speaker 9 (35:57):
Imagine these trees right here, not over twenty years ago, right,
someone stopping to take a picture. He just happens to
live up on the hill. He stops to take a picture,
looks down this terrain.
Speaker 16 (36:11):
And sees my mom.
Speaker 9 (36:16):
So your dad pulled over right here, disposed of her.
Speaker 10 (36:20):
That he would have had to get over this barrier.
Speaker 9 (36:24):
Well, if you think about this, your dad's truck is
an eighteen wheeler. Correct. Your dad is two hundred and
fifty pounds at the time. He knows how to drive
a truck. He can get this close enough, open the door.
Your dad could throw one hundred pounds like it's nothing.
I'm sure.
Speaker 12 (36:47):
Tumbled down. Remember I told you the brush marks on
her cheeks is from this. It's from this.
Speaker 9 (36:56):
So I came up here, I came kicking push, I
came looking for anything.
Speaker 12 (37:01):
I could find just out of sheer. I don't know what.
Speaker 10 (37:06):
And this is really thick.
Speaker 12 (37:08):
Yeah, like I said, twenty years yeah, this is built up.
Speaker 9 (37:11):
It probably wasn't as high, you know what I mean,
The toss wouldn't have been as far, and they would
have never a founder.
Speaker 12 (37:17):
How would they have founder?
Speaker 9 (37:19):
By the grace of God that you were saying earlier
doesn't exist. He made that man stop and take a picture,
because no one ever stops here, No one.
Speaker 6 (37:30):
No, Because there's not really a scenic view either with
the river, because the trees are blocking the view.
Speaker 8 (37:35):
To even take a picture like this wouldn't be where
I would stop to take a picture. This isn't scenic
at all.
Speaker 9 (37:43):
So what made that person stop to take a picture?
Who lives right up here every day?
Speaker 8 (37:47):
That is strange that they would just come down here
and take a picture. If they live here and see
this view every.
Speaker 9 (37:53):
Day, Why did that happen? That's one of the questions.
They had nothing to do with it. They didn't help
your dad or any e both. Why did the universe
tell that person to stop right here? Because it was
time for it to stop. He needed to be stopped.
Speaker 8 (38:11):
And if your mom, if your mom's body wasn't found, he.
Speaker 9 (38:14):
Would still be out there today.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Hro cre.
Speaker 11 (38:29):
Gay was so vaults in our just secrets combinations.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Now we can't check out our hearts.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Talk them tie it in to.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Time.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Happy Face is a production of How Stuff Works.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Executive producers are Melissa Moore, Lauren Bride Pacheco, Mangesha Ticketdour
and Will Pearson. Supervising producer is Noel Brown. Music by
Claire Campbell, Paige Campbell and Hope for a Golden Summer.
Story editor is Matt Riddle. Audio editing by Chandler Mays
and Noel Brown. Assistant editor is Taylor Chicoigne. Special thanks
(39:36):
to Phil Stanford, the publishers of the Oregonian Newspaper, and
the Carlisle Family.
Speaker 15 (39:43):
Airo Criosh
Speaker 16 (39:48):
Guys Votillutious
Previously on Happy Face.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
How did Keith get away with it for so long?
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Laverne A.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
Pavlanac is accused of four counts of aggravated murder, rape,
sex abuse, kidnapping, and felony murder for the death of
Tanya A.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Bennett.
Speaker 3 (00:17):
Pavlanak fed police anonymous tips that led to the arrest
of her longtime boyfriend, John A.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Sasnovsky.
Speaker 4 (00:24):
Laverne was trying to get rid of her boyfriend. She
convinced him by saying she had participated in the murder
with John Susnovskian.
Speaker 5 (00:33):
If it weren't for the anonymous letter, the case might
well have remained forgotten. Quote Honor about January twentieth, nineteen
ninety I picked up Sonia Bennett and took her home.
The name is Tanya, not Sonya Bennett, and she was
killed according to the experts who examined the body on
the night of January twenty first, not the twentieth.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Melissa and I reached out to Jim McNeely, a retired
detective from the Moltnomah County Sheriff's Department.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
He knew what he was talking about, and he had
information on those murders that hadn't been in the papers.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Jefferson kind of saw you as a partner in this.
Speaker 4 (01:08):
We were conspiring to prove that he was guilty.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
There's always been one person Melissa has been afraid to
meet the son of Jefferson's last victim, Don Findley. We
spoke for a couple of hours, and I was finally
able to convince him to meet you.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
And the vies in love vies with.
Speaker 6 (01:33):
I don't know, shine, oh.
Speaker 7 (01:40):
Oh.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
There's an almost numbing quality to hearing Keith describe as crimes.
The details are almost too horrific to fully absorb. We
know the way he tied women up, how he beat
raped and stopped them from breathing, And yet some seem
more shocked to hear how he tortured a cat than
how many women's lives he took. But over a period
(02:16):
of five years from nineteen ninety to nineteen ninety five,
Keith murdered at least eight women. His last victim was
Julianne Winningham, But Keith Hunter jesperson, decimated countless lives beyond
the ones he took, including that of Julie's son, Don Fendley.
I'm Lauren Bright Pacheco, and this is happy face.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
From I The Creation of a Serial Killer by Jack Olson.
The morning after I killed Julie Winningham, my eighth victim,
I drove to Vancouver, Washington to get my driver's license renewed.
On my way, I thought about moving Julie's body farther
from the road, but I decided it was too much
bother I drove straight through to Baker City, Oregon, and
(03:08):
played a little cribbage. I made a few bucks and
hit on some of the women. I gave a couple
of Julie's old coats to a cute girl from Boise.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
So who is Don Findley and why are you so
afraid to meet him?
Speaker 8 (03:31):
Don Finley is the son of Julie Winningham, my father's
last victim. He was present the entire trial of his
mother's murder, and he faced my father in court. I
first heard about him by reading the Oregonian and his
statements in court. I instantly wanted to meet him decades ago,
(03:57):
and have made attempts to reach out to him and
been rejected. I had heard that he wanted to do
the things that my dad did to his.
Speaker 2 (04:07):
Mom to me.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Where did you hear that from.
Speaker 8 (04:11):
A producer when I had the show Monster in My Family.
The whole premise of the show is to connect perpetrator's
family members with victims family members, and the number one
person I wanted to meet was done, so I had
a producer reach out to him, and that producer had
relayed the information to me that he he had thought
about that, that he thought about harming me in the
(04:34):
same fashion that my dad had harmed his mom, because.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
He wanted revenge by taking something from your dad. I
think that he he vilified you quite a bit, and
he thought that you had this perfect, wonderful life and
that you had never suffered because of the harm your
father had inflicted upon people. And I told him a
(04:59):
little bit about your work and about the fact that
you really wanted You've spent your entire adult life trying
to atone for your dad's crimes and sins. And I
think that he had never really looked at the ramifications
of your dad's actions on his family and his children.
Speaker 8 (05:22):
And so he decided he.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Was touch and go, but he said that he'd be
willing to try. I mean, he never gave me a
guarantee that he was actually going to show.
Speaker 8 (05:34):
Up My hope is that it's several things. Honestly, my
real hope is I just want to say I'm sorry.
I want him to know how sorry I am.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
For what my father did.
Speaker 8 (05:59):
It's just true, true sadness for what happened. And I
can't offer any restitution or bring his mom back, and
my sorrow for his mom's loss isn't enough. There's nothing
I could give him, but I definitely want him to
(06:21):
know how sorry I am. I think that's the best
I can offer. That's all I can offer.
Speaker 9 (06:34):
Let it happen.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Look at I mean this is the place he picked.
Speaker 8 (06:39):
I mean this is adorable.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
Okay, so we're looking at the most adorable little seaside
cafe that's actually sitting on the water. And to get
there you have to walk on this kind of metal
grate that rocks back and forth. The cafe is this cheerful,
turquoise blue. It sits not by the water, but on
(07:03):
the water. I think it's gonna be an interesting meeting.
Speaker 8 (07:06):
He picked it, he picked this location. This feels very friendly.
I don't know, I'm.
Speaker 2 (07:14):
Cheerful, it's peaceful.
Speaker 10 (07:15):
It's hard because.
Speaker 8 (07:16):
I'm because I don't know what I'm gonna walk into.
Speaker 10 (07:22):
Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh. Walking on this it's
like walking on still.
Speaker 11 (07:33):
I'll be right back.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
Don asked that we not roll audio until after they'd
had a chance to meet.
Speaker 6 (07:39):
I think that's him. I think I think he's behind me.
This guy's arms crossed. I'm gonna turn turn my back
so I'm sweet can meet with Lauren. I'm glad Lauren's
meeting with him first. He he looks, he looks tense.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Hm.
Speaker 10 (08:03):
I like the location he picked.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
I gestured for Melissa to come over, and she had
to cross this metal plank to get back from where
she was standing on the water to me. And Melissa
is shaking so hard that the entire thing is trembling
as she's walking because she's so nervous. And she walks
(08:31):
up to Don and without saying anything, he opens up
his arms and they embrace, and Melissa just starts sobbing.
It was one of the most beautiful moments I think
I've gotten to witness as a producer. There was such
(08:55):
a vulnerability and strength on both side of that hug,
and it's as if it ripped open a scab on
Melissa's soul. She just sobbed.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
God. It was.
Speaker 8 (09:16):
When he hugged me and just stretched his arms and
he hugged me, it felt like the wash of forgiveness
purified my heart, Like it just melted away my anxiety,
an anxiety that was interwoven in my fibers of my being.
(09:37):
Like I didn't realize how tense I've been walking my
life until he hugged me. And it was like this
relaxation and solace that I've never felt before. And it
was something that I thought I could seek in religion
and find that solace through a forgiveness of a loving God.
(09:59):
And to say, you know, but when Dawn hugged me,
it was like, all as well, the past is washed
away and I'm free. I'm forgiven and free to walk
my life as I need to walk.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
That was a lot.
Speaker 9 (10:19):
Yeah, if you're gonna do it, you gotta do it
right or don't do it at all.
Speaker 10 (10:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (10:24):
And it's got to.
Speaker 9 (10:24):
Come out girl, Sorry, And it's gonna be the hardest.
Speaker 12 (10:29):
Yeah, because this whole time.
Speaker 9 (10:31):
I can only imagine what your thoughts are sitting back.
Speaker 12 (10:34):
Like I said, I've put.
Speaker 9 (10:35):
Myself in your shoes and I can't imagine. But maybe
I am.
Speaker 8 (10:40):
The missing limb, and you know, I can't even put
myself in your shoes, like I don't even know. I
don't know how you did it. I don't know how
you are here like I.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
We settled into the cafe, but for more privacy, we
decided to head back outside to a quiet bench overlooking water, so.
Speaker 9 (11:06):
I'm in a better spot. More questions do you have first?
I mean, I'm sure you've been pondering.
Speaker 12 (11:13):
What I think.
Speaker 8 (11:15):
What I would like to know first is I briefly
met your mom. Okay, yeah, I'd like to whatever you
want to tell me about your mom.
Speaker 13 (11:27):
And well, my mom stayed here in campus with her
mom and was tossed between her dad, who lived in California,
where I was born and raised.
Speaker 12 (11:43):
She wasn't an educated woman.
Speaker 9 (11:45):
She was a very energetic, positive, adventurous walked her own path,
but because of her own education, she had to do
certain things to get by life. I mean back in
the day, she supposedly had married a truck driver just
(12:06):
as big as your father, but he was from Arkansas
and they got divorced. So my mom had me, and
she wasn't around a lot in my life because she
was on her own little journey and was scared of
the family who raised you. My dad's mom, my mom's
step mom, and my mom's dad.
Speaker 12 (12:30):
Why my dad worked all the time.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
What did he do?
Speaker 9 (12:34):
My dad was a regional manager for an auditing company and.
Speaker 12 (12:41):
They got divorced. Dad got custody.
Speaker 9 (12:44):
Mom wasn't around, and she traveled the United States and
liked to do her own thing. Everybody loved her. She
wasn't a drunk, She wasn't an alcoholic or drug addict.
Speaker 12 (13:00):
She uah.
Speaker 9 (13:02):
This is the stuff. The media don't know what I'm
about to tell you. No one knows this. I haven't
told anybody because they ask, but they don't. It's all
been about unfortunately, it's been about you and your father.
When these people tell me what they're promising me right,
I was under the influence that I'm supposed to help people,
(13:23):
but the little thirty second segments aren't long enough to
help people.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
One of the things Don wanted to clarify that he
believes the media got absolutely wrong was his mother, Julie's
relationship with Keith. As we know, Keith broke his rules
for Julie. It was the first time he'd killed someone
he dated and really knew In fact, when Keith introduced
Julie to Melissa or talked to Melissa about her, he'd
(13:51):
referred to Julie as his fiance. But Don takes issue
with this.
Speaker 12 (13:56):
My mom was living in Utah.
Speaker 9 (14:00):
I talked to her on February eleventh, because her birthday
was February twelfth, the mine was February twentieth. There was
no talk of your father. My mom was not in
a relationship. She was living with a girlfriend and a kid.
She was telling me that she was on her way
down here to Camus to visit with their mom. She
(14:21):
had met your father in nineteen ninety two prior, and
she knew how to work the truck stops because she
drove truck and did her thing, and he offered her
a ride. To hear, he must not have had any
pickups because they hung out in town for a couple
of weeks. Okay, they were not in a relationship.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
You can hear in Don's voice how angry he is
about the idea that Keith and his mother were ever together.
There is also a pain that comes from the constant
reminders of his mother. Everywhere he goes, he visits places
she frequented, and he drives past the scene of her
murder on a daily basis.
Speaker 12 (15:08):
Every day up my life since then, I tryed. I
have to try buy it every day I can. Fishing
in the beautiful.
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Corse, I gotta drive right by it.
Speaker 12 (15:26):
I didn't run. I faced it head on.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
I kept crushing my heart.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
The long haul trucker told a Clark County Sheriff's Office
detective by phone that he strangled Julianne Winningham, forty one,
while raping her in the sleeper car of his rig
after gagging her with duct tape. Winningham's nude body was
found March eleventh, dumped down a bank of a viewpoint
along Highway fourteen in the Columbia River gor four miles
(16:01):
east of Wasshugle.
Speaker 2 (16:08):
The scenery wasn't the only reminder of his mother's murder,
so was his name. After his mom's death, Don changed
his name to Leroy. It's actually part of why he
was so difficult for me to track down. I had
to go through Leroy to get to Don. We asked
him a little bit about why he chose that name.
Speaker 9 (16:29):
I was living in San Diego, working at a car wash,
had friends in bands, and just living a fun life.
I was looking pot doing drugs. I was up for
three days. When I got the phone call at work,
I went ballistic. I pulled off kitchen sinks, punched the wood.
(16:54):
Then I walked home and I fell in the middle
of the main street and cried. So this is where
Leroy comes into play. I came up here for the trials.
I got a job telemarketing. They asked me if I
had a nickname. I said Leroy. They put Leroy up
on the board, so I started telling people my name
(17:17):
was Leroy, even though they're seeing me every day on
the news. I mean, not only did I not know anybody,
but I found a job and a place to live
to be able to see this to the end.
Speaker 12 (17:29):
My family was not there for me. No one's ever
asked me if I was okay.
Speaker 11 (17:33):
I want to know what happily you found out. You
came up here. Why did you have to go to
the Morgue.
Speaker 9 (17:38):
Well, the reason I had to go to the Morgue
was because my mom wasn't around a lot in my life,
and I had to physically see her that way to
know that she's dead, or otherwise I would still think
she's on a traveling around doing her thing because we
didn't talk that often.
Speaker 12 (17:56):
She wasn't around a lot.
Speaker 14 (17:58):
I'm going back to how you had to see your mom.
Speaker 12 (18:03):
I can't imagine.
Speaker 11 (18:04):
You you saw her after what? Yeah, I don't even
know what she looked like.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
Yeah, I want to know.
Speaker 8 (18:12):
I want to know, sir, because you have to see it.
Speaker 14 (18:15):
I want to know what you saw.
Speaker 12 (18:20):
All right, Well, I show up. It's underneath the jail.
It's really like the movies.
Speaker 9 (18:28):
Long long, long, long, long long long. They open up
a room, white walls, silver table. My mom has a
sheet covered up to her neck. I see from her
face a mark from here to here. That's why, as
(18:51):
black as day's night, I see shrub marks on her
cheeks from where she rolled down through the berry briars.
Speaker 12 (19:00):
I also see.
Speaker 9 (19:04):
The top of my mom's head, just sitting on top
of her head because they did the aptosy on her brain,
so it was just.
Speaker 14 (19:14):
There.
Speaker 9 (19:20):
That's the last time I saw my mom.
Speaker 10 (19:27):
What are you do with those images?
Speaker 12 (19:31):
Mask them? They go away. She was such a beauty lady.
Speaker 15 (19:42):
He stuck his fist down my mother's throat to make
sure she was dead. Duck taped her, suffocated her, raped her,
carried him around in the cap of his truck, drove
up the mountain. She lost her like a fucking piece
of garbage, and the next time I see her she's
(20:03):
like that.
Speaker 7 (20:09):
I truly can't explain the anger and ate I've had
over the years towards this, but I've had. I had
to put it past me. I had to because otherwise
I'm not going to be happy, and I need to
be happy.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
I was wearing just my shoes and a shirt when
I headed east. I knew she would wake up soon
and then she'd really no terror. I breaked hard at
a stop sign and heard her grunt. She tried to
get into the front passenger seat, but fell to the
floor and cut her forehead on the seat pedestal.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
A little pool of blood formed.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
I reached down and patted her on the back and said,
nice of you to join me, Julie, and stay there
until I stop up ahead, and then you'll find out
what's going to happen to you.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Melissa and Don had been wrestling with the past for
so long, trying to come to terms with its impact
on their lives, and they were both eager to share
their experiences.
Speaker 12 (21:30):
I don't know what you know, I don't know much,
but I don't know what you want to know.
Speaker 9 (21:37):
The Feds everybody, they figured out what trucking company he
worked for. And by the way, I see that trucking
company every day on the road. So you can imagine
my thoughts going through. You know, I see it too, Okay,
and it's got to be hard for us. So they
found out what trucking company he worked for. He was
on a run. He was going to go pick up
(21:58):
a load in New Mexico. Okay, okay, So they called Hani.
They said he's gonna be in New Mexico. The local
police went there with the FEDS because it's out of jurisdiction.
Speaker 12 (22:10):
Did the blood.
Speaker 9 (22:11):
Urine and something else sample for him? They have to
bring it back here to test it. Before they get back,
he calls and says he tried to kill.
Speaker 12 (22:23):
Himself by eating a bottle of Thailand. All they go back,
they arrest him, and the trials start.
Speaker 14 (22:33):
Yeah, the detectives came up to Spokane and they questioned
my mom and then they they didn't tell her anything.
Then she said, uh to my brother or sister, and
I that your dad's in jail. Then my brother's like
for what it is, she said, for murder.
Speaker 11 (22:56):
Just remember just feeling like this is this is not real?
Speaker 12 (22:59):
He had.
Speaker 11 (23:01):
I went to my uh my cot, laid down on him.
Did I just cried the whole night. He had wondered
who it was, what happened, how did it happen? And
he had a picture A million different things in my
head and I wanted answers. Nobody would just tell me.
(23:24):
I just wanted to know. And that's why I started
looking at the Orgonian and reading everything. And it was
hard to read it, but in a way it was
kind of a you know, a blessing in disguise, because
I don't know if I could have handled hearing it
from your words in real life. I think just reading
it there was a there was a state of removal,
(23:45):
you know, I was somewhat removed when I could read
from a distance what was happening over here and what
was happening with your life?
Speaker 2 (23:53):
This?
Speaker 9 (24:00):
Bra four? Pick a right, This is where it happened.
Speaker 12 (24:23):
What is this?
Speaker 9 (24:24):
This is the spot. It used to be an empty
lot until two years ago.
Speaker 10 (24:28):
I thought she was found on a roof.
Speaker 9 (24:30):
Hold on, I'll show you if you stop right here.
This was an empty lot, and his eighteen wheeler was
parked right here.
Speaker 12 (24:38):
Okay.
Speaker 9 (24:39):
The bar he was at is just not even at
the quarter of a mile up the road. My grandmother,
my mom's mom, lived three blocks up the road. So
his truck was parked here.
Speaker 12 (24:49):
Okay, this is where he.
Speaker 9 (24:52):
Did what he did to my mom right here in
this lot.
Speaker 10 (24:56):
With it was a parking.
Speaker 9 (24:57):
Lot, though, yeah, parking lot.
Speaker 11 (24:59):
You know.
Speaker 9 (24:59):
There was no store here, There was no nothing here.
His truck is right here. My mom comes from the
bar up the road. They talk about the money issue.
Speaker 10 (25:11):
He what was the money issue?
Speaker 14 (25:12):
What was she to me?
Speaker 10 (25:14):
Explain that to me.
Speaker 9 (25:16):
So basically, after listening to your father and saying how
one of the victims asked him for money after he
was already done with her, that reminded him of his
wife and that's what made him snap. And I remember
him saying this in one of his interviews. Well, my
(25:37):
mom went to the bartender and he was too busy.
My mom needed some money. Came to jessperson, your dad.
My mom had gotten into a car accident. Your dad's
signature was on the bill of sell, so my mom
came to town with him. They were hanging out. I'm
(25:57):
assuming my mom had a car. My mom was working.
Something happened. She went to your father for money, asking
him nicely because she wasn't a gold digger or anything,
and he snapped, where we're going next is on Highway fourteen.
He drove six miles out on Highway fourteen, pulled over
(26:21):
and threw her out without no rings or nothing, just
stark ass naked, and then came back, got his trailer
and drove off to New Mexico. But your dad, your
last freedom. Was your dad in this town for three weeks?
Speaker 12 (26:44):
Give her take.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
Did your grandmother ever say that they were talking about
getting married again?
Speaker 9 (26:50):
My mom would have never got remarried. I know it
for a fact. That came up through your father. Cause
my mom, as you can see, she was a very
beautiful woman. She was a kind hearted, good soul. And
that's why your dad, you said, he broke every rule
that he ever had set for victims, that he was
going to do this too, right, My mom broke every
(27:11):
rule because of her soul, her heart. You know, he
felt something different with her.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
The truth when it comes to Keith is always in question.
Weeks later, Melissa still had doubts about the nature of
Julian Keith's relationship. Our producer Noel also made the trip
to Washington State to meet Don.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
This idea of Julie being his fiance kind of keeps
coming up, and it's sort of like been called in
the question a few different ways by her son. For example,
he Don right off the bat said that's not true.
But there's a lot of he said, she said stuff
in all of these tales. You kind of were skeptical
of that too.
Speaker 8 (28:08):
The only thing that makes me not skeptical of them
being together is the last time I saw my dad.
The last time I saw my dad was at a diner,
and he brought up that he was going to buy
me a car, a red Pontiac, and that he was
going to buy a house on the beach and that
Julie and him would live there and that I could
(28:29):
move in with him. And so the sense that he
was putting this future with Julie makes me think that
he saw something different in Julian, that he wanted to
settle down and get married.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
But do you remember what we discovered that that wasn't
his dream, that was her dream. Don kind of talked
about how this is something she always talked about wanting to.
Speaker 9 (28:52):
Have her son back with her living in the beautiful
places out in California, because my mom and him travel
from Utah to Hear and they knew each other prior,
so he knew her dream.
Speaker 10 (29:07):
So he was telling me your mom's dream.
Speaker 8 (29:09):
The last time I saw her. Her last words to
my dad or what about your kids? When she was
pleading for her life. And I know she was trying
to appeal to the man and not the monster. The
fact that she was saying that makes me, you know, obviously,
I know why she was pleading what about your children?
(29:30):
You know, to try to ground them back into hey,
you're a dad that.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
But she was and this is again this is your
father's version.
Speaker 8 (29:38):
Yeah, we don't know what her lasts really were.
Speaker 2 (29:41):
And in the Jackalsen book, your father claims that she
was saying, hey, wait, you know what about your children?
I was going to be basically their mother, And one
of his final insults to her is do you think
I would let you raise my kids? But she wasn't
(30:01):
good enough. But again, it's this ongoing theme that you've
pointed out that your dad has to degrade all of
his victims in some way, shape or form. That they
had it coming.
Speaker 8 (30:13):
Absolutely. So the truth is I don't know. What we
do know is that Julie was murdered by my dad.
Her title of fiancee or girlfriend or friend is not relevant, really, I.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
Think, I mean, I think it's relevant in that it's
the one that he interacted with outside of just a
killer victim relationship, at least as far as what we know.
Speaker 8 (30:36):
Well, I know they were friends. I think that's what
they were friends for years, and that's what I think
haunts me more than the fiancee title, is that this
was a multi year relationship, not one of his fleeting
girlfriend situations or someone he barely knew. And if he
(30:56):
could do that to her, he could do that to anybody.
Speaker 3 (31:06):
From I the creation of a serial killer by Jack Olsen.
I said, you don't love me, Julie, you never have.
She sniffed and said, what about your children? I was
going to look after your kids.
Speaker 1 (31:23):
I laughed.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
I said, you can't even look after yourself. How could
I trust you with my kids? I was thinking, how
do I keep running into these kind of women? All
this time? She's staring at me with tears in her eyes.
I removed the tape around her ankles, but I left
(31:46):
the tape on her arms so she couldn't go after
my eyes with her long fingernails.
Speaker 8 (31:54):
Uh oh, I want to ask what you don't have
to answer her phone?
Speaker 10 (31:57):
Okay, what were your mom's last time words?
Speaker 9 (32:01):
Was that said?
Speaker 12 (32:02):
No?
Speaker 9 (32:04):
Have you wondered that? I've never thought about that for
the simple fact of maybe that the fact that she
was duct tape and suffocated and didn't have a last word.
So I've never thought about what my mom's last thoughts
or words were. In my head, she asked him for
(32:24):
money and that made him snap, and that's how my
mom ended up dead. So that is my interpretation.
Speaker 10 (32:33):
My mom said something yesterday when he tries to shame
my mom by publishing their intimacy their sex life, and
I said to my mom, I'm like, doesn't that make
you feel victimized? You know, like that dad's doing this?
Speaker 16 (32:50):
And she said, well, it's not true, and I thought, yeah,
we only have his word for what happened because he
was the only par there and the person who did that.
Speaker 9 (33:02):
And so but I believe what he did to my
mom is true because of the way his actions and
his wording. And now, after you telling me how your
father is That's why he was supposed to so specific
in court. Yeah, I mean, can you imagine my rage
hearing this man say he stuck his fist down my
mom's throat to make sure she was dead.
Speaker 11 (33:24):
No, no.
Speaker 9 (33:27):
Cammage, and then I left her in the back of
my truck for eight to twelve hours before I disposed
of her body.
Speaker 10 (33:33):
So the autops had come from that.
Speaker 9 (33:43):
I came up here on an airplane and I went
to every bar across this whole city, all the way
looking for your father. Didn't know who did it because
they didn't know at this time, because this was less
than twenty four hours after finding my mom. I went
on a every bar. Who are you looking for? What
(34:04):
did you think you.
Speaker 11 (34:04):
Were looking for?
Speaker 9 (34:07):
Being one hundred percent real with you, I don't know.
I like I said, I literally had been up for
three days a day prior.
Speaker 10 (34:16):
You're just going in hoping that you would just see
somebody and they would you would know.
Speaker 9 (34:21):
I'm assuming I can't answer that question because it's so
long ago, you know what I mean. But I remember
one night in the beginning, singing karaoke Pat Benatar singing,
hit me with your best shot, like to the whole.
You know, hit me. Come on, bring it on. You
know what I mean. I'm facing this head on. You
know what I mean. You think you got something for me?
Bring it on, Bring it on, Bring it on.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
Julie was found absolutely by chance, when a local resident
stopped to take a scenic picture by the winding roadside
where she'd been tossed, discovering her naked and beaten body.
Speaker 9 (35:02):
Imagine, so here comes a twenty one mile keep going. Oh,
I know it all.
Speaker 12 (35:10):
See that turnout right there?
Speaker 9 (35:12):
Come not this one, the next one, because you got
to think about it. He has an eighteen wheeler truck,
so he has that space to turn around right to
go back and get his trailer. Yeah, and if he
goes any farther, he's into this Comania County.
Speaker 12 (35:29):
So he pulls over right now.
Speaker 9 (35:33):
You got to understand, the hillside is twenty some years
different than it is now.
Speaker 12 (35:37):
So he pulls his truck over.
Speaker 9 (35:39):
This is where they found my mom's cigarette butts and stuff.
And so what he basically told me was after he
did all that, he opened up the door and threw
her down there like a rag doll, right down there.
Speaker 12 (35:54):
And if you look, let's.
Speaker 10 (35:56):
Go out there.
Speaker 9 (35:57):
Imagine these trees right here, not over twenty years ago, right,
someone stopping to take a picture. He just happens to
live up on the hill. He stops to take a picture,
looks down this terrain.
Speaker 16 (36:11):
And sees my mom.
Speaker 9 (36:16):
So your dad pulled over right here, disposed of her.
Speaker 10 (36:20):
That he would have had to get over this barrier.
Speaker 9 (36:24):
Well, if you think about this, your dad's truck is
an eighteen wheeler. Correct. Your dad is two hundred and
fifty pounds at the time. He knows how to drive
a truck. He can get this close enough, open the door.
Your dad could throw one hundred pounds like it's nothing.
I'm sure.
Speaker 12 (36:47):
Tumbled down. Remember I told you the brush marks on
her cheeks is from this. It's from this.
Speaker 9 (36:56):
So I came up here, I came kicking push, I
came looking for anything.
Speaker 12 (37:01):
I could find just out of sheer. I don't know what.
Speaker 10 (37:06):
And this is really thick.
Speaker 12 (37:08):
Yeah, like I said, twenty years yeah, this is built up.
Speaker 9 (37:11):
It probably wasn't as high, you know what I mean,
The toss wouldn't have been as far, and they would
have never a founder.
Speaker 12 (37:17):
How would they have founder?
Speaker 9 (37:19):
By the grace of God that you were saying earlier
doesn't exist. He made that man stop and take a picture,
because no one ever stops here, No one.
Speaker 6 (37:30):
No, Because there's not really a scenic view either with
the river, because the trees are blocking the view.
Speaker 8 (37:35):
To even take a picture like this wouldn't be where
I would stop to take a picture. This isn't scenic
at all.
Speaker 9 (37:43):
So what made that person stop to take a picture?
Who lives right up here every day?
Speaker 8 (37:47):
That is strange that they would just come down here
and take a picture. If they live here and see
this view every.
Speaker 9 (37:53):
Day, Why did that happen? That's one of the questions.
They had nothing to do with it. They didn't help
your dad or any e both. Why did the universe
tell that person to stop right here? Because it was
time for it to stop. He needed to be stopped.
Speaker 8 (38:11):
And if your mom, if your mom's body wasn't found, he.
Speaker 9 (38:14):
Would still be out there today.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Hro cre.
Speaker 11 (38:29):
Gay was so vaults in our just secrets combinations.
Speaker 3 (38:44):
Now we can't check out our hearts.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Talk them tie it in to.
Speaker 2 (38:57):
Time.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Happy Face is a production of How Stuff Works.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
Executive producers are Melissa Moore, Lauren Bride Pacheco, Mangesha Ticketdour
and Will Pearson. Supervising producer is Noel Brown. Music by
Claire Campbell, Paige Campbell and Hope for a Golden Summer.
Story editor is Matt Riddle. Audio editing by Chandler Mays
and Noel Brown. Assistant editor is Taylor Chicoigne. Special thanks
(39:36):
to Phil Stanford, the publishers of the Oregonian Newspaper, and
the Carlisle Family.
Speaker 15 (39:43):
Airo Criosh
Speaker 16 (39:48):
Guys Votillutious
Happy Face News
Hosts And Creators
Melissa Moore
Lauren Bright Pacheco
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