July 27, 2022 • 54 mins
James and robert interview journalist WF Thomas about the Black Hammer cult and the recent fatality at one of their “Hammer Houses”
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
It could happen here is the podcast that This is
where we talk about things that are happening here. Generally
things fallen apart um, sometimes things getting put back together.
Today we have a story that I wasn't sure if
we were ever going to cover. Um. In brief, we're
going to be talking about a group called Black Hammer
(00:26):
that is, on its surface, a leftist anti colonial political organization. Um,
and a reality is more or less occult. Um. The
reason we're talking about them is that someone is now
dead connected with them. The story is interesting and messy
and says a lot about the way social media works
(00:49):
today and the way that the United States is essentially
like forty different cults in a trench coat. Um. So Uh,
today I'm here with James Stout and we are talking
with journalist W. F. Thomas. H Thomas. What do you?
What do you? What do you? What do you? How?
How are you doing today? Uh? Today is a day, Um.
(01:13):
This story is stuff is still coming out. About an
hour ago, charges were finally posted um for the cult leader. Um.
But that's further along. Yeah, the story. If you hear
(01:34):
chirping in the background, those are for live chickens. So
my apologies all little babies. I just got rabbits that
I have now living in my my chicken facility, and
they seem to be thriving. It's nice. I like having
little animals around all Right, So who are Black Hammer
and how did how did they get to the present position?
(01:58):
So I think we should probably start of like nineteen right,
is kind of when these these folks sort of start
to come on the scene. Yeah, Um, you know you
could take this story back a lot further. Okay, let's
do that. Um. So, sometime in the late eighties, Um
(02:23):
Augustus Romaine Jr. Was born. Um, this is the person
we're commonly known as Gazikazo. Um they used they then
pronouns who would go on to be the leader of
this group. Um. Cazo grew up in Stone Mountain outside
(02:43):
of Atlanta, UM and in the early had kind of
a lifestyle blogger YouTube thing going on. Um was a
self professed Cosmos biggest fan and generally seemed like they
were trying to get famous, Yeah, like in fluencers style famous. Right.
This was not at all political at this period. Yeah,
(03:05):
And UM, that's gonna be kind of the red thread
through this story is Caso. I'm gonna refer to them
as CASO. I guess this remained junior. Um. Wanting to
be famous is kind of, unfortunately the main thing that
drives most of what has happened. UM. At some point,
(03:25):
you know, in the mid um Cardso took this turn
and started making more incendiary videos. UM. I don't have
them directly in front of me, so I don't want
to misquote them. UM, but kind of like going out
pushing this concept like white people are evil, going for
(03:45):
this very specific type of leftism, and um Ghazi Carso
gets taken taken under the wing of and I'm gonna
mispronounce this name uh O'Malley yesh hella UM. And this
is a person who is leading a group in St. Petersburg,
Florida called the African People's Socialist Party UM and Africans
(04:10):
People Socialist Party. It was part of this larger thing
called the Huru Solidarity movement. I don't know if they're
still around, but you know their their ideology was their
world communism, African internationalism, that type of thing. And what
is let's talk a little bit about the word of Huru,
because that's something if you if you've ever been in
(04:33):
and around Proud Boys. First off, I'm sorry, it's not
a fun experience generally, but they like to shout at
huru UM, and I understand that that's kind of related
one way or they outed the other to this. Yeah, so, UM,
I don't have it directly in front of me what
or huru means. But you know the reason probably say
(04:54):
that is because of Gazi Cadzo. There are times several
times when Codso spoke made appearances with Gavin Mcinness, founder
of the Proud Boys, and Carso generally became and still
is treated as a loll cow UM kind of this
target for derision to poke at to see what is
(05:17):
this person doing which is still happening right now. Unfortunately, UM.
You know, Carzo rose through the ranks of this group
UM and then eventually found out that this is basically
a cult. The African People's Socialist Party UM had a
(05:40):
specific focus on membership from colonized people, people of color, UM.
But it turns out this was being steered entirely by
a group of white people. So it's out of the
ashes of this experience, this abusive experience UM, this Coli group, cause,
(06:00):
along with some other people leave this group and they
go onto for a Black Hammer in February of two
thousand nineteen, which the originally was the Black Hammer Organization UM.
And there's some really good write ups, especially read Voice
definitely recommend that and there are I think you broke
(06:21):
out for a second. So the title of that article
is the Devil Wears a Dashiki. It's like six seven parts,
but it's really good conference and that gets into a
lot of what's wry to get a lot of this
information from UM. And there were additionally, what would happen
to some of these people who founded this group Black
Hammer Organization who are also parts of the African People's
(06:43):
Socialist Party UM would disavow ghazi kads that would disabout
Black Hammer and have kind of their own statement about
here's what happened, you know, and which they say, Hey,
we never recovered from this experience in this traumatic group,
in this cult like group, and instead went on to
found this new one, and we're very you know, it
(07:03):
was kind of failed from the start to become this
other cult like group. So just to clarify on the
hurry thing that it comes from the African People's Socialist Party, right,
and then he's they have taken it and run with
it in the Black Hammer organization. So the African People's
(07:28):
Socialist Party was part of this umbrella or group called
the who Solidarity Movement. This group is still around if
you look at like the Channel five with Andrew Callahan
has a video where they go to this march for
reparations and that group is the WHU Solidarity Movement. Got it?
Okay if you're familiar with that. Yeah, yeah, so we
(07:49):
get this organization founded and kind of from what my
perusal of because I've also you can go to their website.
Black Hammer has like a news site. Um, they are
kind of building huh oh yeah, yeah, they're they're kind
of for now. Yeah. They bill themselves as like an
(08:11):
anti colonial organization that is specifically like, um, like one
of the things they do is they have like a
white people's auxiliary that like is for the purpose of
people paying reparations. Um. They have you know, they carried
out a couple of actual direct actions during including like
handing out masks and whatnot. Um. But for the most part,
(08:34):
they seem to exist primarily to drive attention to themselves
and thus donations via social media. And yeah, that that's
that's I think if you've, if you've personally interacted with
Blackhammer propaganda at all, it is probably because you've seen
someone on the internet talking about how Anne Frank Uh
is a Karen or something like that. Yeah, let's talk
(08:57):
about that. Yeah yeah. So, so I want to touch
on something real quick that you mentioned, you know, in
these comments from the people who found the organization, left
the organization, these were these are still true believers who
believe in this cause of de colonialization of African internationalism
and who do want to build a better world and
do good things. Um. You know, in talking with people
(09:21):
have survived the cold, it sounds like Causo probably never
was a true believer, but there weren't true believers around
Causo who believed in this cause. Um. And because about
we're able to be abused, to be profoundly abused by
Carso and the people working directly under Canso Casos behest
um So April twenty in a tweet I believe Uh,
(09:47):
Caso calls and Frank Becky follows up by how she's
a Karen, which one is a ridiculous statement, two is
entirely meant to cause this kind of uproar around that
you know, um, back at this time there was acceptance
of the Black Hammer organization in leftist circles, in that
(10:11):
kind of online communist community. Um, and there were people
who came out kind of like, oh no, let's hear
what they're saying about this, you know, talking about how victims.
You know, the term genocide was invented to describe the Holocaust,
but that term wasn't used to describe slavery that kind
(10:33):
of thing, which, to be clear, is not the conversation
that Caso was trying to have. That was not No,
and that is a worthwhile conversation to have, is like why,
you know, like why is that not? Why is the
the enslavement and like mass murder of a huge number
of African people not seen as an act of genocide?
Certainly a valid conversation to have, but also should not
(10:54):
at all intersect with Anne Frank or how we think
about the Holocaust. Yeah, and because we're living in health Yeah,
this fake you know, kind of propped up, not a
real discussion. It's meant to just piss people off. Is
back again? Oh good, what a great time. Yeah. Based
(11:15):
on documents that have come out that are purported to
be from internal Black Hammer documents. This is part of
their operations Storm of White Tears UM, which was seemingly
this and again I don't know for sure if these
documents are from them, but these documents that are purported
to be from Black Hammer UM lay out this strategy
(11:38):
to cause division too, kind of bring other groups down,
to elevate Black Hammer's own status by putting themselves as
the center of attention in all of this that is
happening UM, in this online fiasco UM. Because again, the
ideology is not the point. The attention is the point.
(12:01):
The control is the point. Along this way, there's there's
you know, there are a lot of allegations out there.
There are you know, for example, allegations that false, false
allegations of pedophilia and sexual assault were used against people
who left the group, people who spoke about against the group,
(12:21):
that they were recruiting people on tinder. Um. Yeah. So
along the way, some more chapters form. UM. There's one
believe near Aurora, Colorado, or at least in Colorado. There's
a New York City one, and kind of the group
continues to rise as almost you know, you know, your
(12:47):
typical revolutionary communist cell that we have wait a few
of in the United States going on right now. Um,
they structure, they purport to structure themselves around the tenets
of democratic centralism as some of these other groups do. Um,
which to dump things down a lot, and there's probably
(13:10):
gonna be left is screaming at me right now. Um.
Was this idea from lenin where a group takes a
vote and then if that vote passes, they all agree
to go along with that platform with usually about fium
so that there's not kind of the splitting off of faction.
So it can lead to this very centralized and hierarchical
(13:33):
control structure. That's certainly what happened in Black Hammer. Um.
There are other democratic centrals groups that have been in
the news lately who use a similar strategy. UM. But
you know what this meant is it allowed God cause
it allowed Codso to run this group with an iron fist. Um.
(13:56):
You know, on paper, there were there was a group
of people leading the group. Um, someone else was in
control of the money, but in fact it was Carso
controlling all of this. Um. They also had you know,
shared living spaces where members of different chapters of Black
(14:16):
Hammer lived Hammer houses. UM. And that's always going to end, well, yeah, don't. Generally,
it's a good rule not to go live with the
revolutionary cell you just joined. Yeah. If if you are
joining a political party and they want everyone to live
in the same space that is controlled by that political organization,
(14:40):
you may in fact be joining a cult. Yeah, And
you know, there's there continues to be kind of trying
to get more attention. At one point, you know, Caso
starts beef with a local anti fascist crew in Colorado.
You know, another thing to mention about this group is
it's a lot of queer people in the group. You know,
(15:03):
Gauzi identifies as non binary. There are you know, several
many members who love people of the same sex. And
you know, one of the things that happens as Gauzi
is beefing with the local anti fascist crew is something
that people are probably thinking of when they hear the
name Gazzi Kozo. Is this bizarre video of Cazo running
(15:25):
around in joker makeup talking about white anarchists and anti fascists,
which the background is actually even more funked up than
you would I think, having just heard that, UM as
outline Red Voice goes into this specifically, UM there were
members of the group who were you know, practitioners of
(15:48):
Yoruba um, an African religion. Um. And one of them
was a trained Um I don't know the correct term,
so I'm just gonna say practitioner of this religion had
gone through an education process in that that took some time. Um.
And this video of Gazi running around and joker makeup
(16:09):
was Gazie's idea too. Channel the ddsume and my apologies
on mispronounced now which is a Guroba deity you know. Um.
And before this happened, apparently Gazi had brought this up
to the person and the person said that is extremely
disrespectful of my religion. Don't do that, and Gazi did
it anyway. Um. And this is you know, another one
(16:32):
of the things where this gets sent around all the time,
as you know, treating Black Hammer as a loll cow.
But you know, even as this was going on, there
was this abuse that was going on as well and
people being preyed upon by this group in black Ham
announces that they are planning to build Hammer City, which
(16:53):
is supposed to be this utopian settlement in the rockies. Um,
you look like you have something you want to say, Well,
I mean look there. It's a perfectly normal dream to
want to build a utopian settlement and the Rockies. There's
some downsides to that. One of them is that the
(17:13):
Rockies is actually a terrible place for a large number
of people to live. Um. And it this is why repeatedly,
I don't know, there's been a lot of utopian settlements
out in that part of the world, and they don't
tend to last very long or they turn into normal towns.
But it's it's it's always interesting when folks try, when
folks want to do a commune type situation, and then
(17:35):
they immediately go for a place like that, because like
the mountains is the hardest place to do it if
you want to have a self sufficient commune, like fucking Kansas,
you know, Arkansas, like somewhere where the soil is good
for growing stuff and you can get like a flat
track tract of land that can grow food as opposed
to high alpine elevations where very little is gone. Anyway, whatever,
(17:57):
this is compound talk, um. So yeah, there's there's If
there's one thing you take away from this episode, don't
build your compound in the Rockies. Don't build a compound
in the rockies. Look, Okay, that's all I got. Yeah,
(18:17):
that's a that's a message this podcast unless you have
the tenaceous unicorn ranch, which case go right ahead. But yeah,
and then you gotta think you know what they're doing,
which is raising alpaca as opposed to relying on like
growing crops, which makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I
didn't actually see any advanced I was just looking at
their at the Hammer City website. If they just told
(18:37):
they just say sustainable farming, I can't see advanced plans
for press went any they did raise a hundred and
twelve thousand dollars so yeah, according to their website, they
raised dred and twelve thousand dollars so far. Okay, yeah, educated,
that's more on this project. Yeah, really interested to know
(18:58):
how much money they actually raised. Um, maybe it was
that much. The point is we don't really know because
there's no there was no kind of an open record
keeping within this group. Um. And it was Cazo who
was in control of the money. So the group found
(19:25):
land to buy, and they actually began the process of
a land deal in early they and and this is
some information now coming from a fantastic Colorado Sun article
about the whole Hammer City thing um that I also
recommend if someone wants to read more in depth about this. So,
(19:47):
as the land deal was in the process of going through,
a portion of the group moved out there. So about
two dozen people. This was. This wasn't you know, it
was remote, but it was it on top of a mountain.
This was in a subdivision that had parcels for sale,
(20:08):
which leads to some problems. And this this is a
subdivision with the homeowners association and strict limits on land
use as well. So they didn't have water rights for
one thing, Yeah, exactly, they didn't have water rights to
land um which I have not started compound, but I
imagine water rice is something you want to have figured
out if you if you just want to live on
(20:30):
a plot of land in the middle of nowhere, it
can be fine. If you want to grow crops, then yeah,
having the ability to irrigate said crops is kind of important. Yeah.
So another thing at this time is black Hammer tends
to be a pretty heavily armed group. You know, the
group moved out to this land, they were camping out there,
(20:51):
basically squatting on the land that they did not own,
and brought their you know, armed security along with them. UM.
And we're also like blocking road access for residents of
the subdivision. UM. So they they had neighbors, you know
and UM. At one point this leads to an altercation
(21:13):
with a neighbor UM with three armed Black Hammer members UM.
And a neighbor driving in his car who you know,
according to this Colorado Sun article, gets out with an
unloaded shotgun and there's a standoff. This could have been
one of those things that went really bad. It went
(21:33):
about as good as you can hope a situation like
that can go where um, nobody got killed. UM. But
while this was happening, the member of Black Hammer who
was responsible for the land deal I forgot to sign
or didn't sign the paperwork on time. UM. And after
(21:54):
information comes out about the standoff, the land deal completely
falls through. There is no Hammers Toby that is going
to be built. UM. And cadso was maintaining in Black
Hammer as a whole, is maintaining a superactive social media
presence at this time as well. So you know. One
(22:15):
of the other things that gets brought out is like
this video of them talking about, oh, we built this
bridge on our land, which is kind of a bunch
of two I force across the ditch. Yeah. Are they
planning to buy um in invent as like an organization
or as cards? Are planning to by themselves? Just an
(22:36):
individual between know? They? This is actually something I did
some research on. UM. They did this fun thing. They
created a front group, a front organization to buy the
land nice which they called Hammerstone Industries Incorporated. Yeah, it's stealthy.
They one of the member, one of the prominent members,
(22:57):
was responsible for that. So power of Google. Yeah. I
also found their bitcoin what what we were talking? And
it has never had any donations and remains empty. Oh
my god. Yeah, that has it gone well? Ah? So
after this land deal falls through, hammer City is not
(23:18):
being built. A lot of people get really fucking piste. Also,
it sounds like they shot through the real estate sign
on their way out of the Stuff division. So on
the seventeenth, when the group leaves hammer City. UM. So,
going back to what Robert mentioned earlier, UM, the group
(23:39):
took a very i'll say interesting approach when the COVID
nineteen started UM, which is the belief that COVID nineteen
is real, that people should wear masks and be protected,
but that they should not take the vaccine, and that
fought Fauci was a liar, which comes out a bit later.
(23:59):
So we're doing for example, there's a there's a news
article and with the video of them doing mutual aid
distribution of masks and food in Colorado. So lots of
people are really fucking pissed. UM. When Hammer City falls through,
there's also been you know, these allegations that have been
(24:21):
coming up again and again. UM. And at this point,
several chapters break apart from Black Camera, UM, break away
from Caso and kind of go off and do their
own thing. UM. And Caso is left with this core
group of members UM kind of true believers and says,
(24:41):
fuck it, We're moving to Atlanta. So the group does
a marathon drive from Colorado to the southern suburbs of
Atlanta and outside of Atlantas where cause that grew up
on the east side, UM, from the northeast. UM. And
they they keep going. They rent a house where everyone
(25:04):
lives together, another one of their Hammer houses. I believe
that this time there is another active chapter that is
still connected with CADSO and the Carolinas as well. UM.
But you know this is a when prophecy fails moment
for Causo UM, and the people that are left behind
(25:25):
are these true believers UM and conser doesn't take this well,
It doesn't take the failure of this deal well, becomes
even more paranoid than they already were, more controlling and
more abusive than they already were. So there's the red
Voice gets into some of the really wild allegations that
(25:45):
come out at this time. Allegedly CAUSO has members sign
over um control of the bank accounts to them at gunpoint,
as people reveal personal information at gunpoint. And again these
are allegations. I'm not saying GODSA did this, UM that
we get some of these classic cult techniques coming out,
(26:10):
forcing people to sit and listen to CASO kind of preach,
having people constantly working, not getting enough to eat, um,
having you know, love bombing where God where Caso makes
you know, deep eye contract with the person, talks about
how important they are, how much they love them, and
(26:31):
the consumption of psychedelics as well. Cool, that's good. Yeah, yeah,
you love to hear that. Um. Yeah, just a bunch
of heavily armed people being cops for each other and
drugging each other in support of I don't know. Charismatics
seems like a weird word for Ghazi, but it must be, right, Like,
(26:51):
clearly it works on some people. Yeah, I think they
think they are charismatic, right, Like, I don't think it's
necessarily they are to be good to be charismatic. But no,
some people seem to be responding to their I don't know,
the way they present themselves. It's so I guess that's
always the way with cults, right that, Like, to the outside,
(27:12):
the cult leader is always an obvious cult leader, but
everybody's got different things they're vulnerable to, and for some
people that's well. And I also, I said, I think
a lot of it is they have like presented themselves
differently in different periods and them I think from what
I've been reading, it sounds like a decent chunk of
the folks who were kind of most deeply wrapped up
(27:32):
and it have been with it for a while, so
they've kind of followed along with Ghazi as they've you know. Yeah,
and this is a group that preyed upon young people,
preyed upon queer people, preyed upon on a housed people,
preyed upon people of color who are at the intersections
you know of oppression in our society, um and discreet.
(27:55):
Like most cults, it offered them a cause, a purpose,
something to fight for, thing to do, friends roof over
their head even you know, um yep, which is a
huge part of it, right because if you if this,
if this place is not just your social circle but
also your safety net and like how you keep roof
(28:16):
over your head and how you stay fed and you
don't have close ties to family, or maybe your family
aren't people that you can trust. Like I mean again,
it's not a different story than you get in a
bunch of other cults, but like this is yeah, it's
it's it's a very frightening situation for those people to
wind up in. And of course one of the things
that is unfortunate is that so much of the stuff
(28:38):
that the Blackham Organization said and did is so absurd
that like it leads to this kind of mockery of
anybody who gets wrapped up in it and the people
who are very much victims of it, which I think
is also one of the things that makes it harder
to leave, right, is that siege mentel and inside that's
where the term collegnitive dissonance comes from specifically people, right,
(29:00):
you know, when when things that go according to plan
stick with this group and you know have already given
always so much of their time, so much of their lifesy,
of their connections, that they just roll with them. Yeah.
And then there's I'm just thinking back to a story
I wrote years ago where fortunate enough to interview someone
who's like an expert on these small cults, and they
(29:21):
had actually been a survivor of I think it was
a trotsky Ast cult, so they were very familiar and
they like, this group exhibits all those patterns, right, like
the charismatic leader that you mentioned, the use of their
own language, the control of their relationships and their contacts
inside and outside the group. Yeah, and then they mirror
this like very positive it's into like just look at
(29:42):
their aesthetics after you mentioned it that they're definitely sort
of seeking to mirror that Black Panther Party aesthetic, right,
which is obviously something that has, for good reasons, very
positive associations for a lot of people. So I can
see they've constructed this very appealing package that. Yeah, and
now there's a body right now, a person has died. Connected,
(30:03):
let's get to the station. So yeah, let's talk about this.
So in Atlanta is where things get really wacky. Basically,
as is often the case with Atlanta, has is often
the case with this beautiful, beautiful city owned by Coca
Cola and home depot with with I have to admit
it as a Texan the best barbecue in the South,
(30:25):
that's true. Excellent Ethiopian food as well. I was sad
this weekend. Yeah, yeah, fucking amazing, fucking amazing ethiopen Ethiopian food. Yeah.
Big refugee population, that's besides the point. M So you know,
Causo has found themselves in this city without a ton
of money, um, and so needs to get more attention,
(30:48):
needs to appeal to more people. So this is when
Causo announces that Black Hammer is forming a coalition with
the Proud Boys, which is one of those things that
comes out and really since nationalized headlines, but doesn't actually happen.
What happens is cause of goes on a podcast with
Gavin McGinness and they talked about we have so much
in common and there's you know, a little toast evidence
(31:12):
of actual organizing or work together between the two groups.
But with this group like this, no, especially because Vin
doesn't organizing anymore, vol problems anymore? What was the podcast
they went on instead of interest? Daniel cut that and
add in the entire audio from b movie condensed into
(31:32):
a two second blast like we talked about. You know,
the group gets more attention to that. UM. They start
talking about how rate Trump is, how much do they
love Trump, how Fauci is evil, um. Because again, ideology
is not the point. The attention is. And this is
how you continue get attention by acting ridiculous, UM, by
(31:57):
asking Trump voters to donate money to you. UM. And
at this time they also begin an extremely aggressive fundraising
campaign in the city of Atlanta. So there's a park
in downtown Atlantic call Woodroff Park that has a huge
on housed population. Because our city is about at being
(32:18):
a city and it's it's just back but black Hammer
there there are other groups. There are other leftist groups
that do mutual aid that help people out in the park.
Black Hammer says, we're going to do this too, you know.
So they'll go there and have these sessions where they're
screaming into a megaphone about whatever, um, and you know,
(32:39):
handing out clothes and some food to unhoused people. UM,
and they also start setting there. The members of their
group pretty much every day of the week, two go
out into the city of Atlanta and ask people for
money on the streets UH in their matching branded Black
Hammer shirts and masks. A site to see and yeah.
(33:06):
So this is what they call their robin Hood campaign. UM.
They specifically target college campuses at Georgia State University and
Georgia Tech especially UM with the idea that college kids
have a lot of money to give away. It's not
a great idea, UM, but they do this aggressive fundraising
(33:30):
where they you know, follow people and if they don't
take no franswips. Oh, you don't care about homeless people,
you don't care about unhoused people. UM. You know, you
just have so much white privilege and really attacking people. UM.
Which is great when you're coming home, you're riding your
bike home and then you keep passing Black Hammer members
(33:54):
m outside of UH you know, on your commute home.
Not fun. Yeah, And they appear, you know, on the
belt Line, which is this kind of public green space
and shared walking space in Atlanta. UM. They do this
outside of concert venues. You know, I went to see
(34:15):
the Dead Kennedy's and as I was walking in the venue,
a Black Hammer guy asked me for money. I have
to explain to the guy in front of me handing
them five dollars, this is an anti Semitic cult. You
don't want to do that. And they they're also taking
in unhoused people. Um. You know, there's this video of
of one of the lieutenants saying, you know, we want
(34:38):
to get you, the unhoused people, to come fundraise for us.
You know, if you come fundraise for us, you can
keep half of it split and whoever fundraises the most
in this week gets to come live with us at
the Hammer House. So it's pretty funked up, you know.
(34:58):
Um there's a case where a professor at Georgia State University,
because the people the Black cant Remembers are out there
every day all day. Um, this is what they do,
this is their job, this is how the group makes money,
you know, calls them out and says, hey, stop asking
for money here. I know you're a cult. And a
(35:20):
member follows the professor in films her you know, and
specifically films her license plate and says, we got you.
For example, members are arrested for having a megaphone in
Woodruff Park and get some of their guns taken away
when the rest because they're in the park with a
bunch of guns, you just have guns out. Yeah. Yeah,
(35:40):
it's Georgia, which sometimes is cool when the Proud Boys
show up and anti fascists have guns, but it's not
not great when definitely, tracking following people who criticize you
(36:05):
and taking pictures of their license plate to try to
docks them online is not at all cult behavior. They
attack X members, They leak the addresses of the family
of X members and their social Security numbers as well
because they had them give them all this information at gunpoint.
They seem to get very close to encouraging people to
(36:29):
shoot cops. In a couple of pieces on their website
as well, they talked about killing white people a lot.
Eventually in Yeah, in two they have this rally outside
of the CNN Center and solidarity with the January six
political prisoners, um along going in Gauzy claims to find
(36:54):
have found Jesus and Black Camera will become a religious group,
you know. They they turned their Mutual Aid distribution into
what they're calling the Revolutionary Church, which of course is
filmed and live streamed. They have several live streams that
they do regularly throughout the week that are mandatory for
(37:17):
members to attend. UM. You know, there there is corporal
punishment going on within the group of people living at
the house. UM. And and the people that they're picking
up off the street. It's not just adults, it's kids
as well, UM, cause of claims to have the sixteen
(37:39):
year old that they have adopted. UM and you know,
cause of post these videos of them giving the sixteen
year old guns and money and clothes to where um,
the kid gets taken into state custody. Um. Before the
current thing that we're talking about, UM, and this is
(38:01):
going to be important later on in the story. UM. Yeah.
So there are also these stories from members who have escaped,
who have to do these elaborate escape attempts to get
out because they're not allowed to leave, who have to
kind of run away in the middle of the night
with none of their stuff through a thunderstorm to get out.
(38:21):
So this is what we're dealing with. All right, everyone,
it's James here, and I just wanted to correct a
couple of things from the episode or add to them.
One of them was the date of that shooting, be
it murder or definitely suicide. That was the nine of July,
note of February, and so it happened about a week
(38:42):
ago at the time that you will hear this if
you hear this on the day that we put out. Secondly,
I also just wanted to give some context to the
word huru. It's Swahili word means freedom or independence. It
was used as part of a a backronym, which is
when and a group has a name with them, they
create an acronym that fits to that name. And the
(39:04):
word Huru was part of a backronym for a group
called the Mau Mau revolutionary anti colonial group who existed
in Kenya, and the word of Huru was used a
decent amoutneatic colonial struggles in Kenya. In the backronym. The
backronym is Mazoomdifrica Party or Huru let the foreigners go home,
(39:26):
Africa should be independent, will be independent. I suppose I
just wanted to give that context. And obviously it's been
appropriated now by by the Proud Boys, but that is
part of the etymology of the word. And then we
get to um what happened on February two. UM. You know,
(39:50):
this is an ongoing story, so the fact what we
know might be changing. But early in the morning, someone
calls and talks about being hell hostage by an organization,
by a group. They don't give the address, but the
police are the authorities are able to track the number
to this house in Fayetteville suburb south of Atlanta. UM
(40:14):
and show up and they see someone is outside walking
a dog who runs away. That person gets arrested. UM,
that's a member of Black Hammer. They see someone kind
of waving from the garage seemingly in distress. UM, and
the police are able to get that person out. They
(40:34):
asked that the rest of people in the house come
out as well. UM. About ten people come out and
one person remains inside. Now by about two pm, with
the use of an explosives ordinance, with the use of
an EO D a bomb robot UM, the police enter
(40:58):
the building. UM. The SWAT team goes in and they
find one person dead of a gunshot wound to the head,
which we at this current time we don't know the
full details on that might not ever, hopefully something comes out.
CASO is being held. You know. The group is kind
(41:19):
of like sitting around outside, not in handcuffs but being
held by the group. Um and Caso does what Caso
does and starts to live stream. So here's a clip
from this thirty minute live stream Facebook Live that Caso does.
Look because a lot of media girls. So this is
(41:43):
just going to build me up at the end of
the day. So thank you. So I think that no
I am and anything like that, you're out of your mind.
(42:04):
M At the end of the day, they're still breaking
my body. I still run an amazing revolutionary party. Our
community is epping with us, and now all these news
channels are going to want to interview us, and we're
going to get to communicate about all the great work
that we are doing here. So this is great at
(42:26):
the end of the day. So my chickens coming home
to roost is more more media, more followers, more you know,
advancement of work, more movement, more greatness, and so be it, sweetheart.
Things like this have non stops. Movements are readers before,
(42:50):
so not even overcome. This is a great moment, right, comrade.
This is a great moment, a moment where no voices
will be amplified and our mission cards will be informed.
Well that's cool. I like that he clearly understands the
(43:12):
gravity of the loss of a human life. So I
will say this is probably before someone was dead. But
the point is that this is exactly what cards have wanted.
Was this attention. Yeah, they seem pumped. They seem pumped
and also like deranged. Yeah yeah yeah, that wasn't how
(43:37):
I envisioned them speaking at all. It's sort of very calming,
and they seem very very calm in that turn of voice. Yeah,
I mean calm, but like, I don't know, I see
an edge to him, but maybe that's a reading. Um,
So do we know more detail about like what happened
with that person who died. I don't want to mention
(43:59):
the name of the person. Um this place, this is
a minor too, right. This is so the person who
is killed, who's dead now, was not was not the
sixteen year old. The sixteen year old was already in
state custody weeks ago. I believe, Um, this is an
eight According to the what the group has said and
other survivors that I have spoken with, this is an
(44:21):
eighteen year old the group took in off of the street. Um,
there's a kid, you know who wanted to be a
rapper who had dreams, um who you know. According to
Black Cameras own media, they made this person their minister
of defense. That's a good job for an eighteen year
old who's dead now because of this group, potentially from
(44:43):
a self inflicted gunshot wound, which that is the case
came about because of Cooso putting that eighteen year old
in this situation. Yeah, so Dirty South Right Watch broke
the news. They have a really good thread that I
also recommend about this happening. It seems like the local
(45:03):
news they started covering the story and the a M
when it was happening, but didn't quite make the connection.
There's there's one article it's out there from a local
news site that just interviews Gazzi Kozo, homeowner of the house. Yeah,
so that happens, one of the members of the group
(45:27):
is immediately charged and booked. It's a really fucked up situation,
you know. There there's like an unhoused individual who that
who who other good activists were in touch with, who
are at the house when this happened, because this person
had no other choice but it was live outside or
go with black Hammer, who went through all of this happening, Um,
(45:50):
and then it was still on how it was still
on housed. After all this happened, Canso was arrested and
booked Um. The charges didn't come out until about an
hour before we started recording. The charges are two accounts
of participation in streaking activity, two accounts of aggravated assault,
(46:13):
two accounts of kidnapping, two accounts of false imprisonment, two
accounts of conspiracy to commit a crime, and I want
to talk about this one one account of sodomy, which
in Georgia the sodomy law refers to non consensual oral
or anal sex or oral and anal sex performed with
the minor got you so one way or the other
(46:36):
that they're being accused of sexual assault. Yes, the other
person arrested UM was charged with the same crimes, except
not sodomy, officer obstruction instead, presumably because they fled. And
that's where we're at. That's where we're at right now. Cool. Well,
(47:00):
that's rough. Yeah, it's it's a pretty bleak story. But
I don't know at this point. We will probably be
hearing more as this case blows up, and there's always
the chance that you know, the rights going to wind
up adopting it to try to, you know, make it
into a left wing bad kind of deal. So when
we have yeah, yeah, I mean, we'll see what kind
(47:21):
of legs it gets. But it's important to understand both
what's happening here because a person is dead and a
lot of people have been hurt, and also kind of
broadly the trends that are at play here. The way
like cult dynamics can intersect with radical politics, I think
is important for people to be aware of because this
kind of thing isn't going to get less common as
(47:41):
ship continues to unravel. Yeah, and if there's some takeaways,
if someone can leave this with, you know, a few
points that the people who were in this group, they
are victims in the situation. They were preyed upon by
this abusive person because they were in a vulnerable state. Um. Anyone.
(48:02):
This could happen to anyone who falls on hard times,
who has a bad enough day and then someone comes
in and offers them this that they say, yes, you know. Um.
The The other thing is to know about groups that
are out there before you get involved. Do your research,
(48:24):
listen to voices that might be critical of the group, UM,
and know what you're getting yourself into. There are other
sensibly leftist groups out there who will not as abuse
of as Black Hammer Um have cases of abuse coming
(48:45):
out of them that gets covered up. Yeah, it might
be good for us just to just to suggested if folks,
you know, find themselves in a difficult situation on someone
they know is in is in one of these situations,
like maybe we can link to some resources and the
notes or something. Yeah, aren't. Yep, there's not. There's not
(49:09):
a whole lot of committed to me that I've been
trying to find. It's probably Stephen Hassan's book, which um
Sawan is also he's an expert in the field, but
he's also the guy who talked about how Tranny hit
No Mind Control porn was. He's got he's problematic. Yeah, well,
(49:31):
I mean part of the reason that this is such
a problem is that there's very little in terms of
good resources or good writing. One of the things that is, like,
there's good writing analyzing cults, very little of it will
give you much that's useful in terms of how to
get people out of cults. For a couple of reasons,
including the fact that as we talked about earlier. What
makes people vulnerable. People aren't vulnerable to cults broadly usually,
(49:54):
I know there's there's a certain subset of people, but like,
as a general rule, people who get trapped in a
cult get trapped in a specific cult because it is
something that they are specifically vulnerable too. And so if
you don't, like, it's more or less a matter of like,
if you want to get someone out of a cult, um,
are you close with that person? Like, are they someone
(50:14):
that you know? Are they someone that you have a
deep relationship with? Because if so, like that relationship and
the care that you have for them is primarily the
thing that is most likely to eventually help them get out,
Which doesn't mean it's a magic bullet, but like there's
no reliable way to get people out of cults. Yeah,
(50:34):
I'm a I do. I do twelve step recovery stuff
um for different reasons. But the closest analogy that I
can think of is dealing with someone who's abusing drug
and alcohol in your life. You can't force anyone to stop,
you can't make anyone. When people talk about CULTI programming,
what that entails kidnapping someone and then putting them through
more abuse. So there is a magic bullet. Yeah, a
(50:58):
lot of extremity problematic ship gets offer to people who
understandably concerned for their friends and family members and just
want to help. The best time to get someone out
of a cult is before they join, is to raise
awareness about abuse in communities UM and share that information
and take these things seriously. I truly believe so much
(51:18):
of how this was able to happen is because people
we're just laughing at them and didn't take it seriously
that this could get someone killed, that this was ruining lives.
That's still happening. People are treating this as a joke,
not Yeah, And I think that's one of the things
if you're like I don't know a parent or or
somebody who otherwise works with their interfaces with there is
(51:42):
raising young people and you're trying to think about how
you can make them less vulnerable to this. It is
a mix of educating them about cults in not in
a way that's like laughing or mocking or talking about
how silly it is, but actually discussing the very real
reasons why people fall and for this stuff, because that's
that's the important one of the most important things it's
(52:04):
the same as COVID. Really, one of the most important
things for protecting yourself is not thinking that you're immune,
which is a natural thing. Most people who have fallen
into colts earlier in their life when they heard about
colts said well, that's stupid as hell. I would never
get trapped in something like that, and then they did.
And that's basically a hundred percent of Coat membership. You know, um,
(52:27):
because yeah, if there's if I can recommend some resources
for parents. Shannon fully Martinez, who is on Twitter, is
you know, was involved in extreme right skinhead stuff unless fitness,
committed her life to helping people leave extremist movements. The
(52:49):
same things you know that are going to make someone
easily preyed upon by a COLT and by an extremist group.
Those are the same things. Um. Shannon has some good
resources out there. She has a Patreon as well. The
resources are available for free. Don't need to join on
her patreon. Awesome, Yeah, Shannon is awesome. UM. And other
(53:12):
than that, you know, don't ye try to avoid falling
for a cult, um except for you know this podcast.
Keep listening to this podcast. Make it the center of
your life. Have no friends of the US for in
paras social relationships with us. Uh huh, Well we're the
only We're the only people you can trust. I think
(53:32):
that's clear. Yeah. Would you like to plug anything before
we carry you off here? Thomas, Yeah, I'm at Twitter
at w underscore f underscore, Thomas, don't be weird on Twitter. Um,
have empathy for the people around you. Almost gonna plug
(53:55):
HASHTA housed people because they know what best can help them. Yeah,
fucking provide people with options for housing so that they're
not Yeah, having a could be the best thing they
can do. But yeah, yep, I'm not a happy note.
Thanks for having me. Yeah, check in on your friends,
(54:16):
disbanding people when they're in difficult times. It could Happen
Here is a production of cool Zone Media. Or more
podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone
media dot com, or check us out on the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks
(54:38):
for listening.
It could happen here is the podcast that This is
where we talk about things that are happening here. Generally
things fallen apart um, sometimes things getting put back together.
Today we have a story that I wasn't sure if
we were ever going to cover. Um. In brief, we're
going to be talking about a group called Black Hammer
(00:26):
that is, on its surface, a leftist anti colonial political organization. Um,
and a reality is more or less occult. Um. The
reason we're talking about them is that someone is now
dead connected with them. The story is interesting and messy
and says a lot about the way social media works
(00:49):
today and the way that the United States is essentially
like forty different cults in a trench coat. Um. So Uh,
today I'm here with James Stout and we are talking
with journalist W. F. Thomas. H Thomas. What do you?
What do you? What do you? What do you? How?
How are you doing today? Uh? Today is a day, Um.
(01:13):
This story is stuff is still coming out. About an
hour ago, charges were finally posted um for the cult leader. Um.
But that's further along. Yeah, the story. If you hear
(01:34):
chirping in the background, those are for live chickens. So
my apologies all little babies. I just got rabbits that
I have now living in my my chicken facility, and
they seem to be thriving. It's nice. I like having
little animals around all Right, So who are Black Hammer
and how did how did they get to the present position?
(01:58):
So I think we should probably start of like nineteen right,
is kind of when these these folks sort of start
to come on the scene. Yeah, Um, you know you
could take this story back a lot further. Okay, let's
do that. Um. So, sometime in the late eighties, Um
(02:23):
Augustus Romaine Jr. Was born. Um, this is the person
we're commonly known as Gazikazo. Um they used they then
pronouns who would go on to be the leader of
this group. Um. Cazo grew up in Stone Mountain outside
(02:43):
of Atlanta, UM and in the early had kind of
a lifestyle blogger YouTube thing going on. Um was a
self professed Cosmos biggest fan and generally seemed like they
were trying to get famous, Yeah, like in fluencers style famous. Right.
This was not at all political at this period. Yeah,
(03:05):
And UM, that's gonna be kind of the red thread
through this story is Caso. I'm gonna refer to them
as CASO. I guess this remained junior. Um. Wanting to
be famous is kind of, unfortunately the main thing that
drives most of what has happened. UM. At some point,
(03:25):
you know, in the mid um Cardso took this turn
and started making more incendiary videos. UM. I don't have
them directly in front of me, so I don't want
to misquote them. UM, but kind of like going out
pushing this concept like white people are evil, going for
(03:45):
this very specific type of leftism, and um Ghazi Carso
gets taken taken under the wing of and I'm gonna
mispronounce this name uh O'Malley yesh hella UM. And this
is a person who is leading a group in St. Petersburg,
Florida called the African People's Socialist Party UM and Africans
(04:10):
People Socialist Party. It was part of this larger thing
called the Huru Solidarity movement. I don't know if they're
still around, but you know their their ideology was their
world communism, African internationalism, that type of thing. And what
is let's talk a little bit about the word of Huru,
because that's something if you if you've ever been in
(04:33):
and around Proud Boys. First off, I'm sorry, it's not
a fun experience generally, but they like to shout at
huru UM, and I understand that that's kind of related
one way or they outed the other to this. Yeah, so, UM,
I don't have it directly in front of me what
or huru means. But you know the reason probably say
(04:54):
that is because of Gazi Cadzo. There are times several
times when Codso spoke made appearances with Gavin Mcinness, founder
of the Proud Boys, and Carso generally became and still
is treated as a loll cow UM kind of this
target for derision to poke at to see what is
(05:17):
this person doing which is still happening right now. Unfortunately, UM.
You know, Carzo rose through the ranks of this group
UM and then eventually found out that this is basically
a cult. The African People's Socialist Party UM had a
(05:40):
specific focus on membership from colonized people, people of color, UM.
But it turns out this was being steered entirely by
a group of white people. So it's out of the
ashes of this experience, this abusive experience UM, this Coli group, cause,
(06:00):
along with some other people leave this group and they
go onto for a Black Hammer in February of two
thousand nineteen, which the originally was the Black Hammer Organization UM.
And there's some really good write ups, especially read Voice
definitely recommend that and there are I think you broke
(06:21):
out for a second. So the title of that article
is the Devil Wears a Dashiki. It's like six seven parts,
but it's really good conference and that gets into a
lot of what's wry to get a lot of this
information from UM. And there were additionally, what would happen
to some of these people who founded this group Black
Hammer Organization who are also parts of the African People's
(06:43):
Socialist Party UM would disavow ghazi kads that would disabout
Black Hammer and have kind of their own statement about
here's what happened, you know, and which they say, Hey,
we never recovered from this experience in this traumatic group,
in this cult like group, and instead went on to
found this new one, and we're very you know, it
(07:03):
was kind of failed from the start to become this
other cult like group. So just to clarify on the
hurry thing that it comes from the African People's Socialist Party, right,
and then he's they have taken it and run with
it in the Black Hammer organization. So the African People's
(07:28):
Socialist Party was part of this umbrella or group called
the who Solidarity Movement. This group is still around if
you look at like the Channel five with Andrew Callahan
has a video where they go to this march for
reparations and that group is the WHU Solidarity Movement. Got it?
Okay if you're familiar with that. Yeah, yeah, so we
(07:49):
get this organization founded and kind of from what my
perusal of because I've also you can go to their website.
Black Hammer has like a news site. Um, they are
kind of building huh oh yeah, yeah, they're they're kind
of for now. Yeah. They bill themselves as like an
(08:11):
anti colonial organization that is specifically like, um, like one
of the things they do is they have like a
white people's auxiliary that like is for the purpose of
people paying reparations. Um. They have you know, they carried
out a couple of actual direct actions during including like
handing out masks and whatnot. Um. But for the most part,
(08:34):
they seem to exist primarily to drive attention to themselves
and thus donations via social media. And yeah, that that's
that's I think if you've, if you've personally interacted with
Blackhammer propaganda at all, it is probably because you've seen
someone on the internet talking about how Anne Frank Uh
is a Karen or something like that. Yeah, let's talk
(08:57):
about that. Yeah yeah. So, so I want to touch
on something real quick that you mentioned, you know, in
these comments from the people who found the organization, left
the organization, these were these are still true believers who
believe in this cause of de colonialization of African internationalism
and who do want to build a better world and
do good things. Um. You know, in talking with people
(09:21):
have survived the cold, it sounds like Causo probably never
was a true believer, but there weren't true believers around
Causo who believed in this cause. Um. And because about
we're able to be abused, to be profoundly abused by
Carso and the people working directly under Canso Casos behest
um So April twenty in a tweet I believe Uh,
(09:47):
Caso calls and Frank Becky follows up by how she's
a Karen, which one is a ridiculous statement, two is
entirely meant to cause this kind of uproar around that
you know, um, back at this time there was acceptance
of the Black Hammer organization in leftist circles, in that
(10:11):
kind of online communist community. Um, and there were people
who came out kind of like, oh no, let's hear
what they're saying about this, you know, talking about how victims.
You know, the term genocide was invented to describe the Holocaust,
but that term wasn't used to describe slavery that kind
(10:33):
of thing, which, to be clear, is not the conversation
that Caso was trying to have. That was not No,
and that is a worthwhile conversation to have, is like why,
you know, like why is that not? Why is the
the enslavement and like mass murder of a huge number
of African people not seen as an act of genocide?
Certainly a valid conversation to have, but also should not
(10:54):
at all intersect with Anne Frank or how we think
about the Holocaust. Yeah, and because we're living in health Yeah,
this fake you know, kind of propped up, not a
real discussion. It's meant to just piss people off. Is
back again? Oh good, what a great time. Yeah. Based
(11:15):
on documents that have come out that are purported to
be from internal Black Hammer documents. This is part of
their operations Storm of White Tears UM, which was seemingly
this and again I don't know for sure if these
documents are from them, but these documents that are purported
to be from Black Hammer UM lay out this strategy
(11:38):
to cause division too, kind of bring other groups down,
to elevate Black Hammer's own status by putting themselves as
the center of attention in all of this that is
happening UM, in this online fiasco UM. Because again, the
ideology is not the point. The attention is the point.
(12:01):
The control is the point. Along this way, there's there's
you know, there are a lot of allegations out there.
There are you know, for example, allegations that false, false
allegations of pedophilia and sexual assault were used against people
who left the group, people who spoke about against the group,
(12:21):
that they were recruiting people on tinder. Um. Yeah. So
along the way, some more chapters form. UM. There's one
believe near Aurora, Colorado, or at least in Colorado. There's
a New York City one, and kind of the group
continues to rise as almost you know, you know, your
(12:47):
typical revolutionary communist cell that we have wait a few
of in the United States going on right now. Um,
they structure, they purport to structure themselves around the tenets
of democratic centralism as some of these other groups do. Um,
which to dump things down a lot, and there's probably
(13:10):
gonna be left is screaming at me right now. Um.
Was this idea from lenin where a group takes a
vote and then if that vote passes, they all agree
to go along with that platform with usually about fium
so that there's not kind of the splitting off of faction.
So it can lead to this very centralized and hierarchical
(13:33):
control structure. That's certainly what happened in Black Hammer. Um.
There are other democratic centrals groups that have been in
the news lately who use a similar strategy. UM. But
you know what this meant is it allowed God cause
it allowed Codso to run this group with an iron fist. Um.
(13:56):
You know, on paper, there were there was a group
of people leading the group. Um, someone else was in
control of the money, but in fact it was Carso
controlling all of this. Um. They also had you know,
shared living spaces where members of different chapters of Black
(14:16):
Hammer lived Hammer houses. UM. And that's always going to end, well, yeah, don't. Generally,
it's a good rule not to go live with the
revolutionary cell you just joined. Yeah. If if you are
joining a political party and they want everyone to live
in the same space that is controlled by that political organization,
(14:40):
you may in fact be joining a cult. Yeah, And
you know, there's there continues to be kind of trying
to get more attention. At one point, you know, Caso
starts beef with a local anti fascist crew in Colorado.
You know, another thing to mention about this group is
it's a lot of queer people in the group. You know,
(15:03):
Gauzi identifies as non binary. There are you know, several
many members who love people of the same sex. And
you know, one of the things that happens as Gauzi
is beefing with the local anti fascist crew is something
that people are probably thinking of when they hear the
name Gazzi Kozo. Is this bizarre video of Cazo running
(15:25):
around in joker makeup talking about white anarchists and anti fascists,
which the background is actually even more funked up than
you would I think, having just heard that, UM as
outline Red Voice goes into this specifically, UM there were
members of the group who were you know, practitioners of
(15:48):
Yoruba um, an African religion. Um. And one of them
was a trained Um I don't know the correct term,
so I'm just gonna say practitioner of this religion had
gone through an education process in that that took some time. Um.
And this video of Gazi running around and joker makeup
(16:09):
was Gazie's idea too. Channel the ddsume and my apologies
on mispronounced now which is a Guroba deity you know. Um.
And before this happened, apparently Gazi had brought this up
to the person and the person said that is extremely
disrespectful of my religion. Don't do that, and Gazi did
it anyway. Um. And this is you know, another one
(16:32):
of the things where this gets sent around all the time,
as you know, treating Black Hammer as a loll cow.
But you know, even as this was going on, there
was this abuse that was going on as well and
people being preyed upon by this group in black Ham
announces that they are planning to build Hammer City, which
(16:53):
is supposed to be this utopian settlement in the rockies. Um,
you look like you have something you want to say, Well,
I mean look there. It's a perfectly normal dream to
want to build a utopian settlement and the Rockies. There's
some downsides to that. One of them is that the
(17:13):
Rockies is actually a terrible place for a large number
of people to live. Um. And it this is why repeatedly,
I don't know, there's been a lot of utopian settlements
out in that part of the world, and they don't
tend to last very long or they turn into normal towns.
But it's it's it's always interesting when folks try, when
folks want to do a commune type situation, and then
(17:35):
they immediately go for a place like that, because like
the mountains is the hardest place to do it if
you want to have a self sufficient commune, like fucking Kansas,
you know, Arkansas, like somewhere where the soil is good
for growing stuff and you can get like a flat
track tract of land that can grow food as opposed
to high alpine elevations where very little is gone. Anyway, whatever,
(17:57):
this is compound talk, um. So yeah, there's there's If
there's one thing you take away from this episode, don't
build your compound in the Rockies. Don't build a compound
in the rockies. Look, Okay, that's all I got. Yeah,
(18:17):
that's a that's a message this podcast unless you have
the tenaceous unicorn ranch, which case go right ahead. But yeah,
and then you gotta think you know what they're doing,
which is raising alpaca as opposed to relying on like
growing crops, which makes a lot of sense. Yeah. I
didn't actually see any advanced I was just looking at
their at the Hammer City website. If they just told
(18:37):
they just say sustainable farming, I can't see advanced plans
for press went any they did raise a hundred and
twelve thousand dollars so yeah, according to their website, they
raised dred and twelve thousand dollars so far. Okay, yeah, educated,
that's more on this project. Yeah, really interested to know
(18:58):
how much money they actually raised. Um, maybe it was
that much. The point is we don't really know because
there's no there was no kind of an open record
keeping within this group. Um. And it was Cazo who
was in control of the money. So the group found
(19:25):
land to buy, and they actually began the process of
a land deal in early they and and this is
some information now coming from a fantastic Colorado Sun article
about the whole Hammer City thing um that I also
recommend if someone wants to read more in depth about this. So,
(19:47):
as the land deal was in the process of going through,
a portion of the group moved out there. So about
two dozen people. This was. This wasn't you know, it
was remote, but it was it on top of a mountain.
This was in a subdivision that had parcels for sale,
(20:08):
which leads to some problems. And this this is a
subdivision with the homeowners association and strict limits on land
use as well. So they didn't have water rights for
one thing, Yeah, exactly, they didn't have water rights to
land um which I have not started compound, but I
imagine water rice is something you want to have figured
out if you if you just want to live on
(20:30):
a plot of land in the middle of nowhere, it
can be fine. If you want to grow crops, then yeah,
having the ability to irrigate said crops is kind of important. Yeah.
So another thing at this time is black Hammer tends
to be a pretty heavily armed group. You know, the
group moved out to this land, they were camping out there,
(20:51):
basically squatting on the land that they did not own,
and brought their you know, armed security along with them. UM.
And we're also like blocking road access for residents of
the subdivision. UM. So they they had neighbors, you know
and UM. At one point this leads to an altercation
(21:13):
with a neighbor UM with three armed Black Hammer members UM.
And a neighbor driving in his car who you know,
according to this Colorado Sun article, gets out with an
unloaded shotgun and there's a standoff. This could have been
one of those things that went really bad. It went
(21:33):
about as good as you can hope a situation like
that can go where um, nobody got killed. UM. But
while this was happening, the member of Black Hammer who
was responsible for the land deal I forgot to sign
or didn't sign the paperwork on time. UM. And after
(21:54):
information comes out about the standoff, the land deal completely
falls through. There is no Hammers Toby that is going
to be built. UM. And cadso was maintaining in Black
Hammer as a whole, is maintaining a superactive social media
presence at this time as well. So you know. One
(22:15):
of the other things that gets brought out is like
this video of them talking about, oh, we built this
bridge on our land, which is kind of a bunch
of two I force across the ditch. Yeah. Are they
planning to buy um in invent as like an organization
or as cards? Are planning to by themselves? Just an
(22:36):
individual between know? They? This is actually something I did
some research on. UM. They did this fun thing. They
created a front group, a front organization to buy the
land nice which they called Hammerstone Industries Incorporated. Yeah, it's stealthy.
They one of the member, one of the prominent members,
(22:57):
was responsible for that. So power of Google. Yeah. I
also found their bitcoin what what we were talking? And
it has never had any donations and remains empty. Oh
my god. Yeah, that has it gone well? Ah? So
after this land deal falls through, hammer City is not
(23:18):
being built. A lot of people get really fucking piste. Also,
it sounds like they shot through the real estate sign
on their way out of the Stuff division. So on
the seventeenth, when the group leaves hammer City. UM. So,
going back to what Robert mentioned earlier, UM, the group
(23:39):
took a very i'll say interesting approach when the COVID
nineteen started UM, which is the belief that COVID nineteen
is real, that people should wear masks and be protected,
but that they should not take the vaccine, and that
fought Fauci was a liar, which comes out a bit later.
(23:59):
So we're doing for example, there's a there's a news
article and with the video of them doing mutual aid
distribution of masks and food in Colorado. So lots of
people are really fucking pissed. UM. When Hammer City falls through,
there's also been you know, these allegations that have been
(24:21):
coming up again and again. UM. And at this point,
several chapters break apart from Black Camera, UM, break away
from Caso and kind of go off and do their
own thing. UM. And Caso is left with this core
group of members UM kind of true believers and says,
(24:41):
fuck it, We're moving to Atlanta. So the group does
a marathon drive from Colorado to the southern suburbs of
Atlanta and outside of Atlantas where cause that grew up
on the east side, UM, from the northeast. UM. And
they they keep going. They rent a house where everyone
(25:04):
lives together, another one of their Hammer houses. I believe
that this time there is another active chapter that is
still connected with CADSO and the Carolinas as well. UM.
But you know this is a when prophecy fails moment
for Causo UM, and the people that are left behind
(25:25):
are these true believers UM and conser doesn't take this well,
It doesn't take the failure of this deal well, becomes
even more paranoid than they already were, more controlling and
more abusive than they already were. So there's the red
Voice gets into some of the really wild allegations that
(25:45):
come out at this time. Allegedly CAUSO has members sign
over um control of the bank accounts to them at gunpoint,
as people reveal personal information at gunpoint. And again these
are allegations. I'm not saying GODSA did this, UM that
we get some of these classic cult techniques coming out,
(26:10):
forcing people to sit and listen to CASO kind of preach,
having people constantly working, not getting enough to eat, um,
having you know, love bombing where God where Caso makes
you know, deep eye contract with the person, talks about
how important they are, how much they love them, and
(26:31):
the consumption of psychedelics as well. Cool, that's good. Yeah, yeah,
you love to hear that. Um. Yeah, just a bunch
of heavily armed people being cops for each other and
drugging each other in support of I don't know. Charismatics
seems like a weird word for Ghazi, but it must be, right, Like,
(26:51):
clearly it works on some people. Yeah, I think they
think they are charismatic, right, Like, I don't think it's
necessarily they are to be good to be charismatic. But no,
some people seem to be responding to their I don't know,
the way they present themselves. It's so I guess that's
always the way with cults, right that, Like, to the outside,
(27:12):
the cult leader is always an obvious cult leader, but
everybody's got different things they're vulnerable to, and for some
people that's well. And I also, I said, I think
a lot of it is they have like presented themselves
differently in different periods and them I think from what
I've been reading, it sounds like a decent chunk of
the folks who were kind of most deeply wrapped up
(27:32):
and it have been with it for a while, so
they've kind of followed along with Ghazi as they've you know. Yeah,
and this is a group that preyed upon young people,
preyed upon queer people, preyed upon on a housed people,
preyed upon people of color who are at the intersections
you know of oppression in our society, um and discreet.
(27:55):
Like most cults, it offered them a cause, a purpose,
something to fight for, thing to do, friends roof over
their head even you know, um yep, which is a
huge part of it, right because if you if this,
if this place is not just your social circle but
also your safety net and like how you keep roof
(28:16):
over your head and how you stay fed and you
don't have close ties to family, or maybe your family
aren't people that you can trust. Like I mean again,
it's not a different story than you get in a
bunch of other cults, but like this is yeah, it's
it's it's a very frightening situation for those people to
wind up in. And of course one of the things
that is unfortunate is that so much of the stuff
(28:38):
that the Blackham Organization said and did is so absurd
that like it leads to this kind of mockery of
anybody who gets wrapped up in it and the people
who are very much victims of it, which I think
is also one of the things that makes it harder
to leave, right, is that siege mentel and inside that's
where the term collegnitive dissonance comes from specifically people, right,
(29:00):
you know, when when things that go according to plan
stick with this group and you know have already given
always so much of their time, so much of their lifesy,
of their connections, that they just roll with them. Yeah.
And then there's I'm just thinking back to a story
I wrote years ago where fortunate enough to interview someone
who's like an expert on these small cults, and they
(29:21):
had actually been a survivor of I think it was
a trotsky Ast cult, so they were very familiar and
they like, this group exhibits all those patterns, right, like
the charismatic leader that you mentioned, the use of their
own language, the control of their relationships and their contacts
inside and outside the group. Yeah, and then they mirror
this like very positive it's into like just look at
(29:42):
their aesthetics after you mentioned it that they're definitely sort
of seeking to mirror that Black Panther Party aesthetic, right,
which is obviously something that has, for good reasons, very
positive associations for a lot of people. So I can
see they've constructed this very appealing package that. Yeah, and
now there's a body right now, a person has died. Connected,
(30:03):
let's get to the station. So yeah, let's talk about this.
So in Atlanta is where things get really wacky. Basically,
as is often the case with Atlanta, has is often
the case with this beautiful, beautiful city owned by Coca
Cola and home depot with with I have to admit
it as a Texan the best barbecue in the South,
(30:25):
that's true. Excellent Ethiopian food as well. I was sad
this weekend. Yeah, yeah, fucking amazing, fucking amazing ethiopen Ethiopian food. Yeah.
Big refugee population, that's besides the point. M So you know,
Causo has found themselves in this city without a ton
of money, um, and so needs to get more attention,
(30:48):
needs to appeal to more people. So this is when
Causo announces that Black Hammer is forming a coalition with
the Proud Boys, which is one of those things that
comes out and really since nationalized headlines, but doesn't actually happen.
What happens is cause of goes on a podcast with
Gavin McGinness and they talked about we have so much
in common and there's you know, a little toast evidence
(31:12):
of actual organizing or work together between the two groups.
But with this group like this, no, especially because Vin
doesn't organizing anymore, vol problems anymore? What was the podcast
they went on instead of interest? Daniel cut that and
add in the entire audio from b movie condensed into
(31:32):
a two second blast like we talked about. You know,
the group gets more attention to that. UM. They start
talking about how rate Trump is, how much do they
love Trump, how Fauci is evil, um. Because again, ideology
is not the point. The attention is. And this is
how you continue get attention by acting ridiculous, UM, by
(31:57):
asking Trump voters to donate money to you. UM. And
at this time they also begin an extremely aggressive fundraising
campaign in the city of Atlanta. So there's a park
in downtown Atlantic call Woodroff Park that has a huge
on housed population. Because our city is about at being
(32:18):
a city and it's it's just back but black Hammer
there there are other groups. There are other leftist groups
that do mutual aid that help people out in the park.
Black Hammer says, we're going to do this too, you know.
So they'll go there and have these sessions where they're
screaming into a megaphone about whatever, um, and you know,
(32:39):
handing out clothes and some food to unhoused people. UM,
and they also start setting there. The members of their
group pretty much every day of the week, two go
out into the city of Atlanta and ask people for
money on the streets UH in their matching branded Black
Hammer shirts and masks. A site to see and yeah.
(33:06):
So this is what they call their robin Hood campaign. UM.
They specifically target college campuses at Georgia State University and
Georgia Tech especially UM with the idea that college kids
have a lot of money to give away. It's not
a great idea, UM, but they do this aggressive fundraising
(33:30):
where they you know, follow people and if they don't
take no franswips. Oh, you don't care about homeless people,
you don't care about unhoused people. UM. You know, you
just have so much white privilege and really attacking people. UM.
Which is great when you're coming home, you're riding your
bike home and then you keep passing Black Hammer members
(33:54):
m outside of UH you know, on your commute home.
Not fun. Yeah, And they appear, you know, on the
belt Line, which is this kind of public green space
and shared walking space in Atlanta. UM. They do this
outside of concert venues. You know, I went to see
(34:15):
the Dead Kennedy's and as I was walking in the venue,
a Black Hammer guy asked me for money. I have
to explain to the guy in front of me handing
them five dollars, this is an anti Semitic cult. You
don't want to do that. And they they're also taking
in unhoused people. Um. You know, there's this video of
of one of the lieutenants saying, you know, we want
(34:38):
to get you, the unhoused people, to come fundraise for us.
You know, if you come fundraise for us, you can
keep half of it split and whoever fundraises the most
in this week gets to come live with us at
the Hammer House. So it's pretty funked up, you know.
(34:58):
Um there's a case where a professor at Georgia State University,
because the people the Black cant Remembers are out there
every day all day. Um, this is what they do,
this is their job, this is how the group makes money,
you know, calls them out and says, hey, stop asking
for money here. I know you're a cult. And a
(35:20):
member follows the professor in films her you know, and
specifically films her license plate and says, we got you.
For example, members are arrested for having a megaphone in
Woodruff Park and get some of their guns taken away
when the rest because they're in the park with a
bunch of guns, you just have guns out. Yeah. Yeah,
(35:40):
it's Georgia, which sometimes is cool when the Proud Boys
show up and anti fascists have guns, but it's not
not great when definitely, tracking following people who criticize you
(36:05):
and taking pictures of their license plate to try to
docks them online is not at all cult behavior. They
attack X members, They leak the addresses of the family
of X members and their social Security numbers as well
because they had them give them all this information at gunpoint.
They seem to get very close to encouraging people to
(36:29):
shoot cops. In a couple of pieces on their website
as well, they talked about killing white people a lot.
Eventually in Yeah, in two they have this rally outside
of the CNN Center and solidarity with the January six
political prisoners, um along going in Gauzy claims to find
(36:54):
have found Jesus and Black Camera will become a religious group,
you know. They they turned their Mutual Aid distribution into
what they're calling the Revolutionary Church, which of course is
filmed and live streamed. They have several live streams that
they do regularly throughout the week that are mandatory for
(37:17):
members to attend. UM. You know, there there is corporal
punishment going on within the group of people living at
the house. UM. And and the people that they're picking
up off the street. It's not just adults, it's kids
as well, UM, cause of claims to have the sixteen
(37:39):
year old that they have adopted. UM and you know,
cause of post these videos of them giving the sixteen
year old guns and money and clothes to where um,
the kid gets taken into state custody. Um. Before the
current thing that we're talking about, UM, and this is
(38:01):
going to be important later on in the story. UM. Yeah.
So there are also these stories from members who have escaped,
who have to do these elaborate escape attempts to get
out because they're not allowed to leave, who have to
kind of run away in the middle of the night
with none of their stuff through a thunderstorm to get out.
(38:21):
So this is what we're dealing with. All right, everyone,
it's James here, and I just wanted to correct a
couple of things from the episode or add to them.
One of them was the date of that shooting, be
it murder or definitely suicide. That was the nine of July,
note of February, and so it happened about a week
(38:42):
ago at the time that you will hear this if
you hear this on the day that we put out. Secondly,
I also just wanted to give some context to the
word huru. It's Swahili word means freedom or independence. It
was used as part of a a backronym, which is
when and a group has a name with them, they
create an acronym that fits to that name. And the
(39:04):
word Huru was part of a backronym for a group
called the Mau Mau revolutionary anti colonial group who existed
in Kenya, and the word of Huru was used a
decent amoutneatic colonial struggles in Kenya. In the backronym. The
backronym is Mazoomdifrica Party or Huru let the foreigners go home,
(39:26):
Africa should be independent, will be independent. I suppose I
just wanted to give that context. And obviously it's been
appropriated now by by the Proud Boys, but that is
part of the etymology of the word. And then we
get to um what happened on February two. UM. You know,
(39:50):
this is an ongoing story, so the fact what we
know might be changing. But early in the morning, someone
calls and talks about being hell hostage by an organization,
by a group. They don't give the address, but the
police are the authorities are able to track the number
to this house in Fayetteville suburb south of Atlanta. UM
(40:14):
and show up and they see someone is outside walking
a dog who runs away. That person gets arrested. UM,
that's a member of Black Hammer. They see someone kind
of waving from the garage seemingly in distress. UM, and
the police are able to get that person out. They
(40:34):
asked that the rest of people in the house come
out as well. UM. About ten people come out and
one person remains inside. Now by about two pm, with
the use of an explosives ordinance, with the use of
an EO D a bomb robot UM, the police enter
(40:58):
the building. UM. The SWAT team goes in and they
find one person dead of a gunshot wound to the head,
which we at this current time we don't know the
full details on that might not ever, hopefully something comes out.
CASO is being held. You know. The group is kind
(41:19):
of like sitting around outside, not in handcuffs but being
held by the group. Um and Caso does what Caso
does and starts to live stream. So here's a clip
from this thirty minute live stream Facebook Live that Caso does.
Look because a lot of media girls. So this is
(41:43):
just going to build me up at the end of
the day. So thank you. So I think that no
I am and anything like that, you're out of your mind.
(42:04):
M At the end of the day, they're still breaking
my body. I still run an amazing revolutionary party. Our
community is epping with us, and now all these news
channels are going to want to interview us, and we're
going to get to communicate about all the great work
that we are doing here. So this is great at
(42:26):
the end of the day. So my chickens coming home
to roost is more more media, more followers, more you know,
advancement of work, more movement, more greatness, and so be it, sweetheart.
Things like this have non stops. Movements are readers before,
(42:50):
so not even overcome. This is a great moment, right, comrade.
This is a great moment, a moment where no voices
will be amplified and our mission cards will be informed.
Well that's cool. I like that he clearly understands the
(43:12):
gravity of the loss of a human life. So I
will say this is probably before someone was dead. But
the point is that this is exactly what cards have wanted.
Was this attention. Yeah, they seem pumped. They seem pumped
and also like deranged. Yeah yeah yeah, that wasn't how
(43:37):
I envisioned them speaking at all. It's sort of very calming,
and they seem very very calm in that turn of voice. Yeah,
I mean calm, but like, I don't know, I see
an edge to him, but maybe that's a reading. Um,
So do we know more detail about like what happened
with that person who died. I don't want to mention
(43:59):
the name of the person. Um this place, this is
a minor too, right. This is so the person who
is killed, who's dead now, was not was not the
sixteen year old. The sixteen year old was already in
state custody weeks ago. I believe, Um, this is an
eight According to the what the group has said and
other survivors that I have spoken with, this is an
(44:21):
eighteen year old the group took in off of the street. Um,
there's a kid, you know who wanted to be a
rapper who had dreams, um who you know. According to
Black Cameras own media, they made this person their minister
of defense. That's a good job for an eighteen year
old who's dead now because of this group, potentially from
(44:43):
a self inflicted gunshot wound, which that is the case
came about because of Cooso putting that eighteen year old
in this situation. Yeah, so Dirty South Right Watch broke
the news. They have a really good thread that I
also recommend about this happening. It seems like the local
(45:03):
news they started covering the story and the a M
when it was happening, but didn't quite make the connection.
There's there's one article it's out there from a local
news site that just interviews Gazzi Kozo, homeowner of the house. Yeah,
so that happens, one of the members of the group
(45:27):
is immediately charged and booked. It's a really fucked up situation,
you know. There there's like an unhoused individual who that
who who other good activists were in touch with, who
are at the house when this happened, because this person
had no other choice but it was live outside or
go with black Hammer, who went through all of this happening, Um,
(45:50):
and then it was still on how it was still
on housed. After all this happened, Canso was arrested and
booked Um. The charges didn't come out until about an
hour before we started recording. The charges are two accounts
of participation in streaking activity, two accounts of aggravated assault,
(46:13):
two accounts of kidnapping, two accounts of false imprisonment, two
accounts of conspiracy to commit a crime, and I want
to talk about this one one account of sodomy, which
in Georgia the sodomy law refers to non consensual oral
or anal sex or oral and anal sex performed with
the minor got you so one way or the other
(46:36):
that they're being accused of sexual assault. Yes, the other
person arrested UM was charged with the same crimes, except
not sodomy, officer obstruction instead, presumably because they fled. And
that's where we're at. That's where we're at right now. Cool. Well,
(47:00):
that's rough. Yeah, it's it's a pretty bleak story. But
I don't know at this point. We will probably be
hearing more as this case blows up, and there's always
the chance that you know, the rights going to wind
up adopting it to try to, you know, make it
into a left wing bad kind of deal. So when
we have yeah, yeah, I mean, we'll see what kind
(47:21):
of legs it gets. But it's important to understand both
what's happening here because a person is dead and a
lot of people have been hurt, and also kind of
broadly the trends that are at play here. The way
like cult dynamics can intersect with radical politics, I think
is important for people to be aware of because this
kind of thing isn't going to get less common as
(47:41):
ship continues to unravel. Yeah, and if there's some takeaways,
if someone can leave this with, you know, a few
points that the people who were in this group, they
are victims in the situation. They were preyed upon by
this abusive person because they were in a vulnerable state. Um. Anyone.
(48:02):
This could happen to anyone who falls on hard times,
who has a bad enough day and then someone comes
in and offers them this that they say, yes, you know. Um.
The The other thing is to know about groups that
are out there before you get involved. Do your research,
(48:24):
listen to voices that might be critical of the group, UM,
and know what you're getting yourself into. There are other
sensibly leftist groups out there who will not as abuse
of as Black Hammer Um have cases of abuse coming
(48:45):
out of them that gets covered up. Yeah, it might
be good for us just to just to suggested if folks,
you know, find themselves in a difficult situation on someone
they know is in is in one of these situations,
like maybe we can link to some resources and the
notes or something. Yeah, aren't. Yep, there's not. There's not
(49:09):
a whole lot of committed to me that I've been
trying to find. It's probably Stephen Hassan's book, which um
Sawan is also he's an expert in the field, but
he's also the guy who talked about how Tranny hit
No Mind Control porn was. He's got he's problematic. Yeah, well,
(49:31):
I mean part of the reason that this is such
a problem is that there's very little in terms of
good resources or good writing. One of the things that is, like,
there's good writing analyzing cults, very little of it will
give you much that's useful in terms of how to
get people out of cults. For a couple of reasons,
including the fact that as we talked about earlier. What
makes people vulnerable. People aren't vulnerable to cults broadly usually,
(49:54):
I know there's there's a certain subset of people, but like,
as a general rule, people who get trapped in a
cult get trapped in a specific cult because it is
something that they are specifically vulnerable too. And so if
you don't, like, it's more or less a matter of like,
if you want to get someone out of a cult, um,
are you close with that person? Like, are they someone
(50:14):
that you know? Are they someone that you have a
deep relationship with? Because if so, like that relationship and
the care that you have for them is primarily the
thing that is most likely to eventually help them get out,
Which doesn't mean it's a magic bullet, but like there's
no reliable way to get people out of cults. Yeah,
(50:34):
I'm a I do. I do twelve step recovery stuff
um for different reasons. But the closest analogy that I
can think of is dealing with someone who's abusing drug
and alcohol in your life. You can't force anyone to stop,
you can't make anyone. When people talk about CULTI programming,
what that entails kidnapping someone and then putting them through
more abuse. So there is a magic bullet. Yeah, a
(50:58):
lot of extremity problematic ship gets offer to people who
understandably concerned for their friends and family members and just
want to help. The best time to get someone out
of a cult is before they join, is to raise
awareness about abuse in communities UM and share that information
and take these things seriously. I truly believe so much
(51:18):
of how this was able to happen is because people
we're just laughing at them and didn't take it seriously
that this could get someone killed, that this was ruining lives.
That's still happening. People are treating this as a joke,
not Yeah, And I think that's one of the things
if you're like I don't know a parent or or
somebody who otherwise works with their interfaces with there is
(51:42):
raising young people and you're trying to think about how
you can make them less vulnerable to this. It is
a mix of educating them about cults in not in
a way that's like laughing or mocking or talking about
how silly it is, but actually discussing the very real
reasons why people fall and for this stuff, because that's
that's the important one of the most important things it's
(52:04):
the same as COVID. Really, one of the most important
things for protecting yourself is not thinking that you're immune,
which is a natural thing. Most people who have fallen
into colts earlier in their life when they heard about
colts said well, that's stupid as hell. I would never
get trapped in something like that, and then they did.
And that's basically a hundred percent of Coat membership. You know, um,
(52:27):
because yeah, if there's if I can recommend some resources
for parents. Shannon fully Martinez, who is on Twitter, is
you know, was involved in extreme right skinhead stuff unless fitness,
committed her life to helping people leave extremist movements. The
(52:49):
same things you know that are going to make someone
easily preyed upon by a COLT and by an extremist group.
Those are the same things. Um. Shannon has some good
resources out there. She has a Patreon as well. The
resources are available for free. Don't need to join on
her patreon. Awesome, Yeah, Shannon is awesome. UM. And other
(53:12):
than that, you know, don't ye try to avoid falling
for a cult, um except for you know this podcast.
Keep listening to this podcast. Make it the center of
your life. Have no friends of the US for in
paras social relationships with us. Uh huh, Well we're the
only We're the only people you can trust. I think
(53:32):
that's clear. Yeah. Would you like to plug anything before
we carry you off here? Thomas, Yeah, I'm at Twitter
at w underscore f underscore, Thomas, don't be weird on Twitter. Um,
have empathy for the people around you. Almost gonna plug
(53:55):
HASHTA housed people because they know what best can help them. Yeah,
fucking provide people with options for housing so that they're
not Yeah, having a could be the best thing they
can do. But yeah, yep, I'm not a happy note.
Thanks for having me. Yeah, check in on your friends,
(54:16):
disbanding people when they're in difficult times. It could Happen
Here is a production of cool Zone Media. Or more
podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone
media dot com, or check us out on the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks
(54:38):
for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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